HJM
Topic Author
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Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:05 pm

Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:58 am

I confess that I know nothing about climate change or global warming or whatever the situation should be referred to as. However, I have recently noticed various articles where people are saying that they will no longer fly as aircraft may be major cause in greenhouse gasses leading to climate change etc. As one who earns a living working for an airline, this possible trend is of concern. Do aircraft really pollute the planet? Might someday flights be limited or even stopped? May in the future large masses of people really stop air travel? Interested to hear your comments.
 
Some1Somewhere
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:11 am

Yes, of course they pollute. Consider how many tons of fuel are loaded into them.

However, it's likely to see other areas get targeted first - energy production, ground transport, heating, agriculture & industry etc.

Because of the weight restrictions, batteries aren't currently very feasible. It is somewhat possible to synthesise a dense fuel from electricity or other energy, which would be carbon-neutral, but that requires having a greed power grid first.

You might see carbon taxes pushing ticket prices up, and schemes to subsidise e.g. high-speed trains as competition.

The above is of course all supposition and depends on political will.
 
EvanWSFO
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Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:22 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:30 am

Some1Somewhere wrote:
Yes, of course they pollute. Consider how many tons of fuel are loaded into them.

However, it's likely to see other areas get targeted first - energy production, ground transport, heating, agriculture & industry etc.

Because of the weight restrictions, batteries aren't currently very feasible. It is somewhat possible to synthesise a dense fuel from electricity or other energy, which would be carbon-neutral, but that requires having a greed power grid first.

You might see carbon taxes pushing ticket prices up, and schemes to subsidise e.g. high-speed trains as competition.

The above is of course all supposition and depends on political will.


It's not political, people just want to make it that way. It's real.. Anyone who thinks differently likely won't be around to see it get worse, but it will.
Last edited by EvanWSFO on Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
ryhops
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Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:36 am

Of course the climate changes - it has since the beginning of time. It's changing as we speak. It all depends on who wins the political debate as to whether we spend trillions of dollars trying to make the climate not change - by punishing industries like commercial aviation. Time will tell! Does not seem to be going well in France ...
 
wxtech
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 3:04 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:49 am

Private Jet flying might see a pinch someday. Airlines are public transportation of the skies. On a per person basis I would think the Airlines are more efficient than Private jets. Of course the folks flying Private have more political influence than us commoners.
 
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idp5601
Posts: 196
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Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:50 am

ryhops wrote:
Of course the climate changes - it has since the beginning of time. It's changing as we speak.


That is literally not what climate change (as it is referred to by scientists) is.
Climate change, as defined by the OED, is 'a change in global or regional climate patterns, in particular a change apparent from the mid to late 20th century onwards and attributed largely to the increased levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide produced by the use of fossil fuels.'. It is not the season changing from spring to summer.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:16 am

I read that the travel industry is 10% of global gdp but only 3% of global emissions
 
trent768
Posts: 124
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:32 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:35 am

idp5601 wrote:
ryhops wrote:
Of course the climate changes - it has since the beginning of time. It's changing as we speak.


That is literally not what climate change (as it is referred to by scientists) is.
Climate change, as defined by the OED, is 'a change in global or regional climate patterns, in particular a change apparent from the mid to late 20th century onwards and attributed largely to the increased levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide produced by the use of fossil fuels.'. It is not the season changing from spring to summer.

No, what he probably means is that climate change is a natural cycle that happens every several thousand years.

P.S: I'm not a denier. Just saying that it'll happen anyway, with or without human presence.
 
smartplane
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Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:43 am

Carbon taxes will increase air fares.

CORSIA base years are 2019 and 2020.

UN and some Government leaders have stated they are dis-satisfied with CORSIA rollout and measures. Ditto for the shipping industry.

Some countries propose to penalise non-participating airlines by imposing higher landing and over flight fees.

CORSIA will encourage the use of more modern aircraft, right-sizing, frequency reductions, fewer new routes, higher load factors, and even aircraft sharing, providing anti-competitive legislation is modified to permit / encourage.

Some airlines, alliances and a few airlines outside alliances, see CORSIA as an opportunity to grow margins and business. Most don't.

As 2019 and 2020 are base line years, there is some incentive to trial new routes and continue with older aircraft until 2021, as this will provide a carbon cushion.

The detail behind CORSIA is incredible. For example, one proposal is X number of 'rescue/maintenance' flights per annum will be excluded from CORSIA calculations, with X being a percentage of total cycles. By inference, airlines operating older, less reliable aircraft, will be penalised. Also potentially adds to the cost of having heavy maintenance performed distant from an airline's base.
 
williaminsd
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Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:52 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:48 am

The climate is always changing. You have precisely zero impact on it. The Climate Cult is not interested in improving lives, only in controlling them...
 
CRJ200flyer
Posts: 97
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:33 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:51 am

Just some fun facts while running through some government statistics:

US Airline Oil Consumption 2000-2017:
309.7 billion gallons burned
3 billion tons of CO2 emitted

US Airline 2018 average so far: 49.5 million gallons/day
 
CRJ200flyer
Posts: 97
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:33 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:00 am

williaminsd wrote:
The climate is always changing. You have precisely zero impact on it. The Climate Cult is not interested in improving lives, only in controlling them...


This is a classic logical fallacy. You are correct, the climate is always changing! However, humans are impacting the rate of climate change (accelerating it), and doing so at an incredible pace. Not only carbon dioxide, but many other green house gases. If you would like to learn more, feel free to do some reading by our country’s excellent scientists at NASA and NOAA, and the global science community in the yearly report produced by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. So much confusion can be cleared up by reading all the data and reports!

Some helpful links:
https://www.ipcc.ch
https://www.noaa.gov/climate
https://climate.nasa.gov

Now hopefully we can get back to discussing the topic posted instead of debating an issue that the science community has settled, and is now focusing on trying to find solutions for...
 
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LAX772LR
Posts: 12496
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:09 am

idp5601 wrote:
It is not the season changing from spring to summer.

You're missing the boat just as badly as s/he is.

The "climate has always changed" statement is usually in reference to the fact that the planet (as a whole, or even in continental regions) has never had the same, or even similar, climate for any geologically-significant period of time. That's an inconvenient truth.

The climate now is (obviously) not the same as it was during the last few ice ages, or during the Devonian period, or during the Mesazoic, or Cenozoic, or the etc etc.

That's not to say that humans aren't exasperating the situation, and making it occur in ways and at rates too excessive for ecosystems to adapt to. But to think that humans will ever "stop" the climate from changing, or produce a lasting climate similar to what's been experienced over the last several centuries, is equally as deluded (or more worrisome: equally as EXPLOITED) as those who outright deny human involvement in climate change.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Chaostheory
Posts: 1134
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:09 am

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:33 am

smartplane wrote:
Carbon taxes will increase air fares.

CORSIA base years are 2019 and 2020.

UN and some Government leaders have stated they are dis-satisfied with CORSIA rollout and measures. Ditto for the shipping industry.

Some countries propose to penalise non-participating airlines by imposing higher landing and over flight fees.

CORSIA will encourage the use of more modern aircraft, right-sizing, frequency reductions, fewer new routes, higher load factors, and even aircraft sharing, providing anti-competitive legislation is modified to permit / encourage.

Some airlines, alliances and a few airlines outside alliances, see CORSIA as an opportunity to grow margins and business. Most don't.

As 2019 and 2020 are base line years, there is some incentive to trial new routes and continue with older aircraft until 2021, as this will provide a carbon cushion.

The detail behind CORSIA is incredible. For example, one proposal is X number of 'rescue/maintenance' flights per annum will be excluded from CORSIA calculations, with X being a percentage of total cycles. By inference, airlines operating older, less reliable aircraft, will be penalised. Also potentially adds to the cost of having heavy maintenance performed distant from an airline's base.


There still a long way to go yet and the basic framework and underlying measures and units are still being figured out.

As you say though, many countries, especially those in Europe (Norway, Sweden, Holland etc) argue it doesn't go far enough and there is real potential for double emissions taxation under both CORSIA and ETS. If that were to happen, I think there would be real risk of CORSIA going tits up and being canned.

And whilst Obama agreed for the US to participate, who knows what the incumbent will do.
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 526
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:41 am

We are entering a cooling period that will kill millions, people should burn more fossil fuels to warn the planet.
 
williaminsd
Posts: 149
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Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:56 am

CRJ200flyer wrote:
williaminsd wrote:
The climate is always changing. You have precisely zero impact on it. The Climate Cult is not interested in improving lives, only in controlling them...


This is a classic logical fallacy. You are correct, the climate is always changing! However, humans are impacting the rate of climate change (accelerating it), and doing so at an incredible pace. Not only carbon dioxide, but many other green house gases. If you would like to learn more, feel free to do some reading by our country’s excellent scientists at NASA and NOAA, and the global science community in the yearly report produced by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. So much confusion can be cleared up by reading all the data and reports!

Some helpful links:
https://www.ipcc.ch
https://www.noaa.gov/climate
https://climate.nasa.gov

Now hopefully we can get back to discussing the topic posted instead of debating an issue that the science community has settled, and is now focusing on trying to find solutions for...


Yawn... the next "prediction" the Climate Cult makes that actually comes true, will be the first. If some European Lemmings want to let a privileged elite force higher air travel costs in their own countries, knock yourselves out (although France seems to be saying "non!"). Just don't expect the United States to play along with your pathetic charade. Got it?
Last edited by williaminsd on Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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lydh
Posts: 69
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Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:58 am

I'm more concerned about the number of major airports that will be underwater in the next 20-30 years.
 
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NYPECO
Posts: 557
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:55 am

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:59 am

williaminsd wrote:
The climate is always changing. You have precisely zero impact on it. The Climate Cult is not interested in improving lives, only in controlling them...

ryhops wrote:
Of course the climate changes - it has since the beginning of time. It's changing as we speak. It all depends on who wins the political debate as to whether we spend trillions of dollars trying to make the climate not change - by punishing industries like commercial aviation. Time will tell! Does not seem to be going well in France ...


The climate is changing at a rapid rate faster than earth's natural cycles and it's due to greenhouse gases. This has been tested and proven over and over again. That doesn't mean aviation is the major cause, but it is happening.
 
williaminsd
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:52 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:07 am

CRJ200flyer wrote:
Just some fun facts while running through some government statistics:

US Airline Oil Consumption 2000-2017:
309.7 billion gallons burned
3 billion tons of CO2 emitted

US Airline 2018 average so far: 49.5 million gallons/day


Here's another fun fact: What nation leads the world in carbon emission reduction? That would be The United States of America. As usual, Europe talks a great game, but is full of it when actual results are measured... https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/20 ... emissions/
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:02 am

I expect fuel for air travel will start to be taxed at first for domestic travel. And then as various international treaties get updated for international travel as well.

I can even see a situation where an aviation fuel carbon tax is even higher than ground level stuff due to the increased effect aviation greenhouse gasses have as they're generally created at high altitude.

This will likely encourage airlines to move faster to biofuels and research into battery electric planes. Worst case is that we may see that nice two leg trip from LHR to AKL becoming a many hop trip again due to the energy density issues inherent in batteries. And the fact you still have to lug them around after use. However I do expect once Boeing or Airbus can build a short haul battery electric plane that can do a few sectors a day they will sell like hotcakes. And that should take out the worst of the emissions.

Just imagine Ryanair and EasyJet switching over to 100% battery electric fleets. The charging issue should be managable as it's a lot easier to build the needed infrastructure for high speed charging at airports. You could easily see a fuel farm supplemented by a battery farm. And you can then source the power from solar and wind. After all, airports do have a lot of space.

But yeah, short of something magic being invented I expect most focus on really reducing greenhouse gas emissions in aviation to be focused on the short haul side. And expect your travel to get longer as we start including the damage to nature cost into ticket pricing as we should have been doing for years already.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:42 am

Forget planes. Can you think of anything more stupid than a cruise ship going slowly in a circle over a 7 day period, spewing exhaust from its funnel...All in the name of entertainment?

As for carbon taxes...dont be so sure.

France, not a conservative place, is experiencing much unrest due to increased gas taxes.

Most people want to help… Until it affects them directly in a major way
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:18 pm

Right, I'm not an expert on the matter of climate change, but I have studied it at school and university, and feel I need to comment here.

Does aviation have an impact on climate change? Yes, quite a lot. Just think how much fuel an aircraft has to burn on a single trip, whenever you burn fossil fuels a lot of emissions are produced.

And now the general point: yes, the Earth's climate has always changed, but that is not an excuse for us to do nothing. Human-caused climate change is a big issue, as it's making the planet significantly hotter in a very short space of time. It's the short space of time and scale of the change that are worrying, never has change taken less than a few thousand years, what we see now is a change in mere decades. If we keep going as we are, then weather in the future becomes more extreme and more unpredictable, a huge problem for all societies but especially poor ones. It's quite possible that we could break the average temperature record (2.68 degrees celsius) or else come close, but the suddenness of the change is unprecedented. We really don't know what will happen, but it will NOT be positive.

What we need to do is use renewable sources more often and in areas where we can. At present it's not viable to use them for aviation, so that will be one of the last areas to be tackled, but for most other things technology is making it more viable to use renewables, and we should really use them more. At the very least, airlines are very efficient now and the nature of the industry is that making planes more efficient is better for the environment.

It'll be sad in a few decades when the sh*t hits the fan, people won't be prepared because certain people were adamant they they weren't responsible, even though as a collective they clearly were.

Some reading:

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/world- ... ecadalTemp

http://www.temperaturerecord.org/
 
Eyad89
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Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:58 pm

For those who want to visualize the effect of climate change, next time you find yourself in a parking garage, notice how warm that place. Why is that? it is because the carbon dioxide from the cars emissions are getting trapped inside the garage and increasing the temperate. Now, imagine all human activities that produce carbon dioxide, where does it all go? they get trapped within our atmosphere, and hence the warming.
 
A3801000
Posts: 558
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:59 pm

williaminsd wrote:
CRJ200flyer wrote:
williaminsd wrote:
The climate is always changing. You have precisely zero impact on it. The Climate Cult is not interested in improving lives, only in controlling them...


This is a classic logical fallacy. You are correct, the climate is always changing! However, humans are impacting the rate of climate change (accelerating it), and doing so at an incredible pace. Not only carbon dioxide, but many other green house gases. If you would like to learn more, feel free to do some reading by our country’s excellent scientists at NASA and NOAA, and the global science community in the yearly report produced by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. So much confusion can be cleared up by reading all the data and reports!

Some helpful links:
https://www.ipcc.ch
https://www.noaa.gov/climate
https://climate.nasa.gov

Now hopefully we can get back to discussing the topic posted instead of debating an issue that the science community has settled, and is now focusing on trying to find solutions for...


Yawn... the next "prediction" the Climate Cult makes that actually comes true, will be the first. If some European Lemmings want to let a privileged elite force higher air travel costs in their own countries, knock yourselves out (although France seems to be saying "non!"). Just don't expect the United States to play along with your pathetic charade. Got it?


I hope you own a house at a beach.
 
aviationaware
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Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:10 pm

CRJ200flyer wrote:
This is a classic logical fallacy. You are correct, the climate is always changing! However, humans are impacting the rate of climate change (accelerating it), and doing so at an incredible pace.


There is zero conclusive evidence of this. The assertion that 98% of scientists agree on this is also a lie or at the very least a gross misrepresentation.

The undisputable fact is this: the climate is changing.

Whether humans have an impact, however big or small that may be, is completely irrelevant. We will never come to a point at which humanity will collectively stop producing the gasses blamed for the change. Every gram of CO2 that we save in the west is added twofold in emerging markets because we cripple ourselves into uncompetitiveness and those emerging countries seize the opportunity, as would anyone in their right mind. Unfortunately, we aren't in our right minds anymore, while China and others obviously are.

Instead of wasting billions of dollars crippling ourselves fighting against windmills, we should take that money and invest it into countermeasures for the inevitable. Like building dams and relocating those in endangered places. Unfortunately, this smart solution does not seem to occur to our leaders who are mostly suffering under delusions of grandeur. Future generations will spit on their graves and despise them for their inaction.

Eyad89 wrote:
For those who want to visualize the effect of climate change, next time you find yourself in a parking garage, notice how warm that place. Why is that? it is because the carbon dioxide from the cars emissions are getting trapped inside the garage and increasing the temperate.


This is literally the dumbest thing I have read all year. Parking garages heat up because they are enclosed spaces and heat has a harder time escaping than on an open air parking lot. Has absolutely nothing to do with CO2 heating up an otherwise cold room. It's engine heat getting trapped. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want to join the climate panic mongers you should at least know how the CO2 supposedly heats up the planet. Hint: It's not a self-heating agent.
 
TheOldDude
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:18 pm

The problem with focusing solely on drawing down aviation emissions is that studies to date have shown better climate results with increasing economic development. For example, the recent US International Climate Assessment shows horrid climate impacts under severe economic stagnation (RPC 8.5), yet the IPCC depicts the second to lowest emissions (half of those under RCP 8.5) “consistent with a baseline scenario that assumes a global development that focuses on technological improvements and a shift to service industries but does not aim to reduce greenhouse gas emissions as a goal in itself”. Increases in aviation miles flown are an essential enabler is the IPCC scenario. "Solutions" that artificially restrict aviation growth restrict improvements in the climate battle.
 
CRJ200flyer
Posts: 97
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:33 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:52 pm

aviationaware wrote:
CRJ200flyer wrote:
This is a classic logical fallacy. You are correct, the climate is always changing! However, humans are impacting the rate of climate change (accelerating it), and doing so at an incredible pace.


There is zero conclusive evidence of this. The assertion that 98% of scientists agree on this is also a lie or at the very least a gross misrepresentation.

The undisputable fact is this: the climate is changing.

Whether humans have an impact, however big or small that may be, is completely irrelevant. We will never come to a point at which humanity will collectively stop producing the gasses blamed for the change. Every gram of CO2 that we save in the west is added twofold in emerging markets because we cripple ourselves into uncompetitiveness and those emerging countries seize the opportunity, as would anyone in their right mind. Unfortunately, we aren't in our right minds anymore, while China and others obviously are.

Instead of wasting billions of dollars crippling ourselves fighting against windmills, we should take that money and invest it into countermeasures for the inevitable. Like building dams and relocating those in endangered places. Unfortunately, this smart solution does not seem to occur to our leaders who are mostly suffering under delusions of grandeur. Future generations will spit on their graves and despise them for their inaction.


Scientists are always certain to avoid absolute conclusivity because any particular global system is highly complex, and affected by a range of factors. In any case, here is a useful quote from NASA:

“The current warming trend is of particular significance because most of it is extremely likely (greater than 95 percent probability) to be the result of human activity since the mid-20th century and proceeding at a rate that is unprecedented over decades to millennia.”

https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

To your other point, yes seeing other emerging countries grow in scale can feel daunting, and make us feel like whatever we do is hopeless. However this attitude of helplessness is not a valid excuse to do nothing (in my opinion). And even look at China... building the largest hydroelectric dams in the world, constructing a fleet of new nuclear power plants, new wind fields, and more installed solar power capacity than any country on the planet. The fact remains that per person, the United States (of whichever I am a citizen) has the highest per person emissions (as well as excessive water consumption, but that’s another topic).

To those who bashed my statistics on US aviation fuel consumption, that was not to make a comparison to any other country. The US has a large fleet of relatively fuel efficient aircraft. My point was an attempt to provide some scale for how much fuel we’ve burned.

Here’s another attempt at that I calculated while bored sitting on reserve... If you were to look at how much oil the world has burned since 1965 (all industries), using Chicago O’Hare Airport, you would fill the surface area of ORD to a height of 4 miles, and this imaginary pool would be rising 581 feet per year.
 
axiom
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Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:52 pm

TheOldDude wrote:
The problem with focusing solely on drawing down aviation emissions is that studies to date have shown better climate results with increasing economic development. For example, the recent US International Climate Assessment shows horrid climate impacts under severe economic stagnation (RPC 8.5), yet the IPCC depicts the second to lowest emissions (half of those under RCP 8.5) “consistent with a baseline scenario that assumes a global development that focuses on technological improvements and a shift to service industries but does not aim to reduce greenhouse gas emissions as a goal in itself”. Increases in aviation miles flown are an essential enabler is the IPCC scenario. "Solutions" that artificially restrict aviation growth restrict improvements in the climate battle.


This is based on extremely flawed economic modelling, and a simple but absurd premise: that we have to grow the economy (make the problem worse) in order to be able to afford to mitigate the worst.

An alternative approach, one which is less elegant to model (and less ideologically appealing to growth-minded market fundamentalists), would be to mitigate the production of the problem in the first place.

Contrary to what folks say here, there is exceedingly clear evidence linking the current (extremely high) rate of change to human activity. I would be happy to engage folks on this topic further, if they'd like. Source: I have a PhD on the topic

As an avgeek, I'm distressed that my passion is highly problematic from an environmental respective. I try to limit all non-essenrial flying, and would support efforts to price environmental losses into ticket costs. I'm also in favour of public subsidies for alternative fuels and travel technologies, and would happily absorb that cost in the price of my ticket. I might flight less, and the industry might contract as a result, but I understand in no uncertain terms that this is a very small price relative to the alternative -- an alternative we are getting dangerously close to. If you think the current migration crises in Europe or the US are creating enough direct and indirect political and economic destruction, see what happens when entire regions become unliveable, when global supply chains begin to collapse, when entire ecosystems are lost (see coral bleaching), and when the cost of stronger and more frequent catastrophes ruins even the wealthiest economies. It is a great tragedy that folks refuse to engage with the overwhelming scientific consensus about what is -already- happening. And a greater tragedy that not a single one of us casually chatting on this forum will be the hardest hit.
 
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Aloha717200
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Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:54 pm

williaminsd wrote:
The climate is always changing. You have precisely zero impact on it. The Climate Cult is not interested in improving lives, only in controlling them...


This is patently false, and the proof is in the pudding as storms, fires, droughts, and other weather phenomenon directly impacted by the global rise in temperatures causes more and more extremes.

To deny the real and proven science of climate change is to bury your head in the sand until it's too late to do anything about it. And right now we have a very limited window of opportunity to see things change for the better.

Also of importance: The United States is the only major power that continues to double down on its denial of climate change and is actively rolling back steps to curb it. Even China has promised bolder measures than the United States, at this point.

We need to stop making this a partisan issue, realize the reality is in fact a threat to our way of life and our planet as a whole, and do something about it. You may not feel a car or a plane or any other vehicle truly can impact something as large as the earth...until you realize the sheer number of vehicles producing emissions all over this planet every single day, not to mention industrial emissions as well. As the temperatures rise, more and more natural greenhouse gasses are released from the ocean, which then adds to the risk of a runwaway greenhouse effect occuring within a generation, once we can't easily fix.

We can fix it now though. If we hurry. And stop pretending it isnt us, and will go away. It is us. And WE need to be the ones to stop it. Yes, fluctuations happen, yes, our activity will always have some effect, but right now the effect is stronger than our planet can adapt to without severely affecting human, animal, and plant life. It's all well and good to dismiss it until someone you love loses their home to a Cat 5 hurricane or a fire that consumes an entire town in mere hours. I have friends who lost homes in both. I don't take it lightly.

You can choose to let human caused climate change run its course...in which case it will, likely at the expense of the human habitability of this world. If that's the future you want..by all means. But those that deny it remind me of those who firmly believe that Trump is the best thing for America...right up until they watch the country plummet into a recession sometime next year. The warning signs are there...but some refuse to listen until they see it for themselves. The stakes are high here, and must not be downplayed.
Last edited by Aloha717200 on Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
TheOldDude
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:03 pm

axiom wrote:
TheOldDude wrote:
The problem with focusing solely on drawing down aviation emissions is that studies to date have shown better climate results with increasing economic development. For example, the recent US International Climate Assessment shows horrid climate impacts under severe economic stagnation (RPC 8.5), yet the IPCC depicts the second to lowest emissions (half of those under RCP 8.5) “consistent with a baseline scenario that assumes a global development that focuses on technological improvements and a shift to service industries but does not aim to reduce greenhouse gas emissions as a goal in itself”. Increases in aviation miles flown are an essential enabler is the IPCC scenario. "Solutions" that artificially restrict aviation growth restrict improvements in the climate battle.


This is based on extremely flawed economic modelling, and a simple but absurd premise: that we have to grow the economy (make the problem worse) in order to be able to afford to mitigate the worst.

An alternative approach, one which is less elegant to model (and less ideologically appealing to growth-minded market fundamentalists), would be to mitigate the production of the problem in the first place.

(cut)

Unfortunately, the economic modeling is the best we have under the circumstances, unless you can provide something better.

Your dismissal of the premise as "absurd" and reference to "ideological appear" displays your bias. To reach improved understandings, we have to have honest discussions without outright dismissals of other's views. One of the great failures of our time is our current compulsion to listen only to those who have similar views and to paint everyone else as "ideologically driven", "absurd", otherwise intellectually or morally inferior, or even evil.
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2490
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:06 pm

Aviation is an easy target, because it's known and visible to everyone. It also regularly involves human drama, opulence, catastrophes and is recognised by most users as a cause of stress and anxiety. As target goes, that's your proverbial sitting duck.

It's also hilariously ironic, that almost each and every loud advocate of reducing travel by air, has been 'caught' as an extensive user of that very mode of transport. They've loads of excuses, of course, and it's flabbergasting to observe how they fail to see the arguments they use, are the very same as everyone else who chose to travel by air.

All that's besides the point, which is that going after aviation is obnoxiously stupid, given there's a shipping industry right next door. And a closer look of that, reveals that a single large shipping line, Maersk Line, pollouts MORE than the entire fleet of all commercial aircraft in the world. Where in the bleedin' so and so is the outcry over that?

Moreover, we're talking ships here. Big, bulky, lumbering, heavy things which need a lot of weight under the waterline to keep upright. Well, why the ficking fick are they not told to load the bilges up with sodding giant banks of batteries, propelling the things slowly across the oceans? Sure it'll cost a few bucks, and journeys will take longer. But the shipping industry will save hundreds of billions of dollars by not having to purchase bunker oil, and the planet will be spared of that particularly nasty blend of dino juice.

Next they could start looking at farming. Why are those giant barns housing cows, sheep, swine and whatnot, not fitted with carbon scrubbers? I know it's my food we're talking about, and I'm as precious about that as the next guy, but until they present themselves in a dead fashion on my plate, they're enthusiastic producers of gas. All of which is emitted straight out the barns and up in the atmosphere. Surely it's not beyond the capacities of modern man, to devise an extraction system to a chimney fitted with scrubbers.

Once you've sorted that, we'll be well below even the most militant of demands for global CO2 reduction, and we can start looking at smaller fish. Like ground transportation. Which, by then, is probably a combination of self-driving and public transport for the masses, and robotic self-driving for haulage anyway. All powered by the wonders of electrickery, most likely generated from renewable sources.

That should leave plenty of gas and carbon credits for aviation, for which there is currently no easy replacement - my impression is that dilithium drives are still a ways in the future.
Signature. You just read one.
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2812
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:06 pm

CRJ200flyer wrote:
And even look at China... building the largest hydroelectric dams in the world, constructing a fleet of new nuclear power plants, new wind fields, and more installed solar power capacity than any country on the planet.


That's because those things make sense. China does not install all that solar capacity in Beijing, where it doesn't make sense. But in our countries, solar is subsidized so even people in regions where it makes no sense at all can install it. That's another example of us crippling ourselves. Solar makes a lot of sense in Australia and California, but less so in Germany and Ohio, where peak electricity usage does not even coincide with peak solar production.

China does not do those projects because they want to save the planet, they just laugh at our stupidity because we do exactly that.
 
axiom
Posts: 869
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:11 pm

TheOldDude wrote:
axiom wrote:
TheOldDude wrote:
The problem with focusing solely on drawing down aviation emissions is that studies to date have shown better climate results with increasing economic development. For example, the recent US International Climate Assessment shows horrid climate impacts under severe economic stagnation (RPC 8.5), yet the IPCC depicts the second to lowest emissions (half of those under RCP 8.5) “consistent with a baseline scenario that assumes a global development that focuses on technological improvements and a shift to service industries but does not aim to reduce greenhouse gas emissions as a goal in itself”. Increases in aviation miles flown are an essential enabler is the IPCC scenario. "Solutions" that artificially restrict aviation growth restrict improvements in the climate battle.


This is based on extremely flawed economic modelling, and a simple but absurd premise: that we have to grow the economy (make the problem worse) in order to be able to afford to mitigate the worst.

An alternative approach, one which is less elegant to model (and less ideologically appealing to growth-minded market fundamentalists), would be to mitigate the production of the problem in the first place.

(cut)

Unfortunately, the economic modeling is the best we have under the circumstances, unless you can provide something better.

Your dismissal of the premise as "absurd" and reference to "ideological appear" displays your bias. To reach improved understandings, we have to have honest discussions without outright dismissals of other's views. One of the great failures of our time is our current compulsion to listen only to those who have similar views and to paint everyone else as "ideologically driven", "absurd", otherwise intellectually or morally inferior, or even evil.


This is what I do for a living. It's not quite as simple as whipping up an alternative -- it's the life's work of dozens of economists. The point is that we need multiple models for understanding the problem indifferent ways. The first step to using an existing model is to understand its limits. I would be happy to direct you to discussions of these limits.

What are you doing to understand and contribute to this challenge?

Would you argue that it's absurd to declare that the law of gravity doesn't exist?

I have very little time for pretending that ideological anti-science nonsense is an equal position. It isn't.

If you want to talk about who wins and loses under different scenarios, about the politics of it -- sure. I appreciate that, underpinning these misguided calls for non-partisan or "thoughtful" debate, are real concerns. They are hugely important. But let's stick to those, not debating whether or not we need to have the debate.

Neither of us has the time.
 
SeoulIncheon
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:52 am

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:25 pm

axiom wrote:
TheOldDude wrote:
axiom wrote:

This is based on extremely flawed economic modelling, and a simple but absurd premise: that we have to grow the economy (make the problem worse) in order to be able to afford to mitigate the worst.

An alternative approach, one which is less elegant to model (and less ideologically appealing to growth-minded market fundamentalists), would be to mitigate the production of the problem in the first place.

(cut)

Unfortunately, the economic modeling is the best we have under the circumstances, unless you can provide something better.

Your dismissal of the premise as "absurd" and reference to "ideological appear" displays your bias. To reach improved understandings, we have to have honest discussions without outright dismissals of other's views. One of the great failures of our time is our current compulsion to listen only to those who have similar views and to paint everyone else as "ideologically driven", "absurd", otherwise intellectually or morally inferior, or even evil.


This is what I do for a living. It's not quite as simple as whipping up an alternative -- it's the life's work of dozens of economists. The point is that we need multiple models for understanding the problem indifferent ways. The first step to using an existing model is to understand its limits. I would be happy to direct you to discussions of these limits.

What are you doing to understand and contribute to this challenge?

Would you argue that it's absurd to declare that the law of gravity doesn't exist?

I have very little time for pretending that ideological anti-science nonsense is an equal position. It isn't.

If you want to talk about who wins and loses under different scenarios, about the politics of it -- sure. I appreciate that, underpinning these misguided calls for non-partisan or "thoughtful" debate, are real concerns. They are hugely important. But let's stick to those, not debating whether or not we need to have the debate.

Neither of us has the time.


So this person, without any rationale, simply denies every sigle argument that this person does not agree with.
Climate change activists - they are simply trying to get absolute power to be a dictator that is unknown since the days of Stalin and Hitler. No more democracy. It is urgent! So everyone must do as what I tell - or be summarily executed! For Stalin, it was "equality", for Hitler, it was "superiority of German people." For those "environmental activists", it is "threat of climate change."
 
TheOldDude
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:28 pm

axiom wrote:
TheOldDude wrote:
axiom wrote:

This is based on extremely flawed economic modelling, and a simple but absurd premise: that we have to grow the economy (make the problem worse) in order to be able to afford to mitigate the worst.

An alternative approach, one which is less elegant to model (and less ideologically appealing to growth-minded market fundamentalists), would be to mitigate the production of the problem in the first place.

(cut)

Unfortunately, the economic modeling is the best we have under the circumstances, unless you can provide something better.

Your dismissal of the premise as "absurd" and reference to "ideological appear" displays your bias. To reach improved understandings, we have to have honest discussions without outright dismissals of other's views. One of the great failures of our time is our current compulsion to listen only to those who have similar views and to paint everyone else as "ideologically driven", "absurd", otherwise intellectually or morally inferior, or even evil.


This is what I do for a living. It's not quite as simple as whipping up an alternative -- it's the life's work of dozens of economists. The point is that we need multiple models for understanding the problem indifferent ways. The first step to using an existing model is to understand its limits. I would be happy to direct you to discussions of these limits.

What are you doing to understand and contribute to this challenge?

Would you argue that it's absurd to declare that the law of gravity doesn't exist?

I have very little time for pretending that ideological anti-science nonsense is an equal position. It isn't.

If you want to talk about who wins and loses under different scenarios, about the politics of it -- sure. I appreciate that, underpinning these misguided calls for non-partisan or "thoughtful" debate, are real concerns. They are hugely important. But let's stick to those, not debating whether or not we need to have the debate.

Neither of us has the time.


Thank you for proving my point.
 
PerVG
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:41 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:29 pm

Aviation might be a "small" contributor to the problem (transportation represent about 15% of global greenhouse gases emissions, and aviation is just a part of that), but we are at a point where every single gram of CO2 counts. That fact that are bigger contributors is not an excuse to not do anything about it. We have to tackle the problem in every front.
Fortunately, there is a gigantic economic incentive in keeping pursuing fuel efficiency, wich, of course, leads to lower emissions, and that partially offsets the ever increasing air traffic, but it's not enough.
Maybe a switch to bio-fuels in the mid/long-term can make aviation sustainable at least until the development of battery technology (metal-air, probably) that enables ranges of a few thousand nm.
 
williaminsd
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:52 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:35 pm

Meh... this is what you get when you challenge a man's religion, and that's exactly what the cult of climate change is. While I admire your quaint faith, your "science" is based on no actual evidence, and relies completely on your bible of computer models, which can and are manipulated to produce the desired result. Despite the impotent yelping here by the naively devout, the United States, the world leader in reducing greenhouse gas emissions under our magnificent President, will not participate in these fact-free climate scams as commanded by your high-priests in Geneva. Cripple your own economies if you must, just don't expect Americans to pay for your laughable ignorance and gullibility. Now you run along to church like good little puritans, and I'll don my yellow vest...
Last edited by williaminsd on Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
SkyVoice
Posts: 304
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:34 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:42 pm

While so many of you are deep in the scientific and political weeds of this contentious issue, allow me to bring up one simple, basic, mind-boggling point. For most of my life--and I turned 62 earlier this year--I have heard many professional and amateur environmentalists preaching hellfire and brimstone sermons to all in earshot, that to help planet Earth be a more hospitable place to live, we should travel on public transportation whenever we can. :hissyfit:

Well, DUH ! ! ! THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT AIRLINES ARE ! ! ! :roll:
Last edited by SkyVoice on Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Your talents may take you where your character can not keep you." - Terry Nelson
 
SkyVoice
Posts: 304
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:34 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:42 pm

duplicate post . . . mods, please delete
Last edited by SkyVoice on Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Your talents may take you where your character can not keep you." - Terry Nelson
 
CRJ200flyer
Posts: 97
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:33 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:45 pm

williaminsd wrote:
Meh... this is what you get when you challenge a man's religion, and that's exactly what the cult of climate change is. While I admire your quaint faith, your "science" is based on no actual evidence, and relies completely on your bible of computer models, which can and are manipulated to produce the desired result. Despite the impotent yelping here by the naively devout, the United States, the world leader in reducing greenhouse gas emissions under our magnificent President, will not participate in these fact-free climate scams as commanded by your high-priests in Geneva. Cripple your own economies if you must, just don't expect Americans to pay for your laughable ignorance and gullibility. Now you run along to church like good little puritans, and I'll don my yellow vest...


Clearly I am no match for your level of ignorance.
 
williaminsd
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:52 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:48 pm

CRJ200flyer wrote:
williaminsd wrote:
Meh... this is what you get when you challenge a man's religion, and that's exactly what the cult of climate change is. While I admire your quaint faith, your "science" is based on no actual evidence, and relies completely on your bible of computer models, which can and are manipulated to produce the desired result. Despite the impotent yelping here by the naively devout, the United States, the world leader in reducing greenhouse gas emissions under our magnificent President, will not participate in these fact-free climate scams as commanded by your high-priests in Geneva. Cripple your own economies if you must, just don't expect Americans to pay for your laughable ignorance and gullibility. Now you run along to church like good little puritans, and I'll don my yellow vest...


Clearly I am no match for your level of ignorance.


You are no match for anything son...
 
EmoticonsAllDay
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:19 am

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:00 pm

This is turning out to be the next 'round earth vs flat earth' :rotfl: and I'm enjoying every ounce of it :hyper:
 
CRJ200flyer
Posts: 97
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:33 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:07 pm

axiom wrote:
As an avgeek, I'm distressed that my passion is highly problematic from an environmental respective. I try to limit all non-essenrial flying, and would support efforts to price environmental losses into ticket costs. I'm also in favour of public subsidies for alternative fuels and travel technologies, and would happily absorb that cost in the price of my ticket. I might flight less, and the industry might contract as a result, but I understand in no uncertain terms that this is a very small price relative to the alternative -- an alternative we are getting dangerously close to. If you think the current migration crises in Europe or the US are creating enough direct and indirect political and economic destruction, see what happens when entire regions become unliveable, when global supply chains begin to collapse, when entire ecosystems are lost (see coral bleaching), and when the cost of stronger and more frequent catastrophes ruins even the wealthiest economies. It is a great tragedy that folks refuse to engage with the overwhelming scientific consensus about what is -already- happening. And a greater tragedy that not a single one of us casually chatting on this forum will be the hardest hit.


This is thoughtful discussion, thank you. As an airline pilot, I often think of the same. I love my job, of connecting people, being one with an incredible piece of technology, and exploring our world. Yet I realize that the job I love also contributes to emissions as I burn through thousands of pounds of fuel every flight. When I sit on the taxiway for twenty minutes having to burn off hundreds of pounds of excess fuel (that was either overfueled or because we are no longer within weight due to bags/pax etc), it’s sad to think of this fuel just burning into the air for no reason.

I agree that I would be in favor of some sort of fee/tax/offset to make help fight environmental costs or find alternatives, even if it meant flying less. Our system is constructed on oil, from our vehicles to our ships to our aircraft to our road infrastructure to the layout of our cities and suburbs. Somehow we have to shift the system to make sustainable technologies the better economic choice. As much as I love flying, I wish we had the high speed rail network of Europe and China (China now has more high speed rail than the rest of the world combined).
 
User avatar
Aloha717200
Posts: 3842
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:50 am

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:24 pm

SeoulIncheon wrote:
axiom wrote:
TheOldDude wrote:
Unfortunately, the economic modeling is the best we have under the circumstances, unless you can provide something better.

Your dismissal of the premise as "absurd" and reference to "ideological appear" displays your bias. To reach improved understandings, we have to have honest discussions without outright dismissals of other's views. One of the great failures of our time is our current compulsion to listen only to those who have similar views and to paint everyone else as "ideologically driven", "absurd", otherwise intellectually or morally inferior, or even evil.


This is what I do for a living. It's not quite as simple as whipping up an alternative -- it's the life's work of dozens of economists. The point is that we need multiple models for understanding the problem indifferent ways. The first step to using an existing model is to understand its limits. I would be happy to direct you to discussions of these limits.

What are you doing to understand and contribute to this challenge?

Would you argue that it's absurd to declare that the law of gravity doesn't exist?

I have very little time for pretending that ideological anti-science nonsense is an equal position. It isn't.

If you want to talk about who wins and loses under different scenarios, about the politics of it -- sure. I appreciate that, underpinning these misguided calls for non-partisan or "thoughtful" debate, are real concerns. They are hugely important. But let's stick to those, not debating whether or not we need to have the debate.

Neither of us has the time.


So this person, without any rationale, simply denies every sigle argument that this person does not agree with.
Climate change activists - they are simply trying to get absolute power to be a dictator that is unknown since the days of Stalin and Hitler. No more democracy. It is urgent! So everyone must do as what I tell - or be summarily executed! For Stalin, it was "equality", for Hitler, it was "superiority of German people." For those "environmental activists", it is "threat of climate change."



Wow. Truly...unbelievable. The people who are trying to warn people about the dangers of climate change and calling for us to set aside the political divides for a moment and actually do something to protect all of humanity are....equated to Stalin and Hitler.

Dude, sometimes the "conspiracy" doesnt exist. Sometimes people can and do want to do something that's good for everyone. I know humans suck, but sometimes we do good things. This is one good thing we're at least trying to do. And calling people who dedicate their lives to this cause because they want to save the lives of others by some evil name is remarkably disingenuous.
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:27 pm

As said above by others, aviation has a significant economical impact.
In addition, aviation is constantly improving its footprint by reducing fuel burn.

I think that putting taxes on aviation is crazy.
The first reason for this is that while it would make aviation less affordable to many and hence reduce demand, the margins between profits and losses are so narrow for airlines that it will force a collapse in the industry.
In general, economical downturns already have a similar effect and you all know what it looks like.
Taxes high enough to reduce demand would put airlines into a permanent ice age.
This will in turn reduce new aircraft purchases and manufacturers will be less able to innovate.

The taxes will also most likely not be used for anything related to reducing emissions. We've already seen this in most of the developped world.

The only viable way is to bump up research and find permanent and real solutions that will make us walk away from fossil fuel economies.

It's laughable to see expensive electric cars being sold as solutions with huge incentives. This is just an illusion and not a solution.
For example, in California, Tesla cars are now gaining market share and people are proudly showing off how they are contributing.
On the other had, California is producing half of its electricity from fossil fuels and over half of the electricity is generated from sources that emit greenhouse gases.
So in California, a Tesla is no better than any hybrid on the market.

Everybody needs to keep pushing collectively for a greener economy through awareness. But at the end of the day, awareness alone won't make the difference because it only makes sense if it can be a collective effort and that's not how we are programmed to be.
The human being focusses on individual development first so even if you can selflessly stop travelling to save the planet or agree to pay higher taxes for travel, at the end of the day there will still be people cutting down or burning forests, driving fuel guzzlers, etc...

If you really want to contribute as an individual, there is only one way. Stop wasting your time on awareness and do research, find and offer permanent and economically viable solutions.
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2459
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:31 pm

williaminsd wrote:
Meh... this is what you get when you challenge a man's religion, and that's exactly what the cult of climate change is. While I admire your quaint faith, your "science" is based on no actual evidence, and relies completely on your bible of computer models, which can and are manipulated to produce the desired result. Despite the impotent yelping here by the naively devout, the United States, the world leader in reducing greenhouse gas emissions under our magnificent President, will not participate in these fact-free climate scams as commanded by your high-priests in Geneva. Cripple your own economies if you must, just don't expect Americans to pay for your laughable ignorance and gullibility. Now you run along to church like good little puritans, and I'll don my yellow vest...


What is this then, if it's not evidence?

http://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/arctic-sea-ice/
 
User avatar
Aloha717200
Posts: 3842
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:50 am

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:31 pm

williaminsd wrote:
Meh... this is what you get when you challenge a man's religion, and that's exactly what the cult of climate change is. While I admire your quaint faith, your "science" is based on no actual evidence, and relies completely on your bible of computer models, which can and are manipulated to produce the desired result. Despite the impotent yelping here by the naively devout, the United States, the world leader in reducing greenhouse gas emissions under our magnificent President, will not participate in these fact-free climate scams as commanded by your high-priests in Geneva. Cripple your own economies if you must, just don't expect Americans to pay for your laughable ignorance and gullibility. Now you run along to church like good little puritans, and I'll don my yellow vest...


World leader in reducing emissions under our magnificent president? That would be the same president that rolled back climate protections that Obama put in place, correct? Unless you are referring to Obama, who was, in fact, one of the leaders of trying to combat human caused climate change. This president? Not so much. Not even remotely so much.

The cult of climate change you say? Sounds like projection, because what I'm hearing very much sounds like the "Cult of Trump" instead. He's not magnificent, and his stewardship...or lack thereof...of the country is already beginning to make itself apparent. We've watched the longest sustained period of growth in history (Obama's) slow, and stall, under Trump, and for all the talk of economic success and opportunity you're discussing, you're saying nothing of the glaring red flags in the market right now that show us on a collision course with a sharp downturn. And what then? What is best for America then?

You're batting for the wrong team if you want prosperity.
 
williaminsd
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:52 pm

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:38 pm

Aloha717200 wrote:
williaminsd wrote:
Meh... this is what you get when you challenge a man's religion, and that's exactly what the cult of climate change is. While I admire your quaint faith, your "science" is based on no actual evidence, and relies completely on your bible of computer models, which can and are manipulated to produce the desired result. Despite the impotent yelping here by the naively devout, the United States, the world leader in reducing greenhouse gas emissions under our magnificent President, will not participate in these fact-free climate scams as commanded by your high-priests in Geneva. Cripple your own economies if you must, just don't expect Americans to pay for your laughable ignorance and gullibility. Now you run along to church like good little puritans, and I'll don my yellow vest...


World leader in reducing emissions under our magnificent president? That would be the same president that rolled back climate protections that Obama put in place, correct? Unless you are referring to Obama, who was, in fact, one of the leaders of trying to combat human caused climate change. This president? Not so much. Not even remotely so much.

The cult of climate change you say? Sounds like projection, because what I'm hearing very much sounds like the "Cult of Trump" instead. He's not magnificent, and his stewardship...or lack thereof...of the country is already beginning to make itself apparent. We've watched the longest sustained period of growth in history (Obama's) slow, and stall, under Trump, and for all the talk of economic success and opportunity you're discussing, you're saying nothing of the glaring red flags in the market right now that show us on a collision course with a sharp downturn. And what then? What is best for America then?

You're batting for the wrong team if you want prosperity.


El. OH. EL... Looks like it's time to but stock in Kimberly-Clark, makers of "Depends." Aloha!
 
User avatar
Aloha717200
Posts: 3842
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:50 am

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:49 pm

williaminsd wrote:

El. OH. EL... Looks like it's time to but stock in Kimberly-Clark, makers of "Depends." Aloha!



Ah, I see. I mistakenly thought you were capable of an intellectual discussion. No matter, the truth, and its consequences, always come out eventually.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 14900
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: Climate Change And Airlines

Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:05 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
Some1Somewhere wrote:
Yes, of course they pollute. Consider how many tons of fuel are loaded into them.

However, it's likely to see other areas get targeted first - energy production, ground transport, heating, agriculture & industry etc.

Because of the weight restrictions, batteries aren't currently very feasible. It is somewhat possible to synthesise a dense fuel from electricity or other energy, which would be carbon-neutral, but that requires having a greed power grid first.

You might see carbon taxes pushing ticket prices up, and schemes to subsidise e.g. high-speed trains as competition.

The above is of course all supposition and depends on political will.


It's not political, people just want to make it that way. It's real.. Anyone who thinks differently likely won't be around to see it get worse, but it will.

Why will those who don’t believe in the hysteria die first?

Listen to interviews with Jerry Brown and he sounds like a raving lunatic biblical doomsday dude.

Al Gores deadlines have all passed but the North Pole still exists.

The progress of the avalanche is glacial. So I guess you are right, none of us will be around to see the dire consequences.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.

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