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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:21 am

seb146 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Someone on the Right, from the Media Entertainment world has something to say:

This shows two things:

1. Republicans hated a Black man being in charge and reinforces the FACT that Republicans hate minorities
2. Celebrities do matter

Your fake outrage is noted and your true colors are noted.


Image


:yes:
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Dieuwer
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:11 am

AA747123 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
This is great news for our nation, and returning us to a Great Nation. How can the government require someone to buy a particular product? How can a government force a private insurance company to cover things such as pre-existing conditions? By repealing this Oblummer regulation it will ultimately lower costs for all. This is great news and adds a great feather in the cap of Trump. He is truly MAGA!


How much does your life have to suck for you to not only find happiness but to express what comes across as exuberance and joy in people losing access to affordable healthcare?


Its about being forced to buy a product I dont want to buy. Its about upholding the constitution. Why should I have to pay a higher tax to supplement someone else healthcare? For decades and decades we got by in this country WITHOUT mandatory health insurance. Socialized health care is socialism. Socialism leads to communism.

Look at prison. Fee housing in a gated community, free food for all, free healthcare for all, everyone is treated the same. Its a liberal paradise!


Are you one of those people who show up at the ER when injured, demand to get treated, but when the bill is due quickly vanish to never be heard from again?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:09 am

bagoldex wrote:
How much does your life have to suck for you to not only find happiness but to express what comes across as exuberance and joy in people losing access to affordable healthcare?


I think you're overlooking trolling at a master level. :wink2:
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B777LRF
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:18 am

In my opinion, and that of the vast majority of people in the industrialised world, health care is a right on the same level as education and security. It's just the US where the ruling class has decided to make an industry of it, in the process thereof making a few people very rich and the overwhelming majority just one major injury away from personal bankruptcy. They've also managed to make a system that's by far the most expensive in the world (making a few people very rich) whilst delivering a service to the vast majority, that is inferior to every other industrialised nation in the world. There's a word for that, or rather several, but 'idiocy' covers it pretty well.

The funny thing is, if the US were to fund health care via taxes like everyone with an ounce of common sense does, it'll not only end up being much cheaper than today, the benefits to society will greatly eclipse the downsides of 'having to pay for someone else', and is likely to yield much better results for everyone apart from the top 1%. But it's not the job of society to look after the 1%; they're rich enough to make sure they'll want for nothing. No, the hallmark of any civilised society is how they cater to the bottom 50% of earners. And in that respect, the US has failed - and continues to fail - on a monumental scale.

AA747123 wrote:
Socialized health care is socialism. Socialism leads to communism.


Hence the reason all of Western Europe are communist states? Oh, wait, none of them are!

Sometimes it's just too easy .....
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:57 pm

I suspect we could move to Medicaid for all. It covers doctors, hospitals, and drugs. Private insurance can be included in a fairly easy way. It would pay the 'imputed' cost of Medicaid (per capita computed by age), and any or all of the excess funds of the private plan could purchase supplemental items. These may include better and faster access to primary care, more expensive drugs, private rooms at hospitals - whatever floats your boat! For me it would be a much better access to urgent care (which I would use once or twice a year)
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DL717
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:06 pm

Aesma wrote:
BTW I find it very peculiar that you can have a constitutional law, then change it, then it's unconstitutional. Shouldn't the change that has been made be unconstitutional, instead ?


It’s unconstitutional because you can’t force people to buy a product. Once the tax was stripped away, it became a product. Your statement about deregulation is also off base. The lack of deregulation is what causes those prices to go up. They know they can shake down the insurance companies because they can’t bargain outside a given state, there is literally zero competition in the health insurance indisutry. If you have Blue Cross in one state, it’s not the same as Blue Cross in another. They have to set up a sub company in every state they offer their insurance in, that has overhead and all kinds of other cost implications. Deregulation of aviation? Flying is cheaper. Deregulation of telecom? How’s that phone bill? Remember being owned by one local provider that choked your balls off on your phone bill? My phone bill is less today than it was 30 years ago, in real dollars it’s less than half. I remember racking up monthly $100 long distance bills during the holidays when I was in the military on my MCI card at $0.20 a minute. Same goes for auto and homeowners insurance which also needs deregulation. Deregulating allows a company to reduce closts by making a single product available to more people without massive overhead costs.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:16 pm

DL717 - for a variety of reason there is close to a total market failure in medical care. There is not an example in the entire world where medical care policy works and is deregulated. Only in your imagination does any industry work as you seem to think. Read Adam Smith - both of his books.
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MSPNWA
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:57 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
DL717 - for a variety of reason there is close to a total market failure in medical care. There is not an example in the entire world where medical care policy works and is deregulated. Only in your imagination does any industry work as you seem to think. Read Adam Smith - both of his books.


Deregulated =/= no regulation. Your argument is invalid.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:11 pm

Don't worry kids, Trump and the republicans have a totally credible solution just waiting, ready to go to fix healthcare! And then there's always prayer :rotfl:
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DL717
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:48 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
DL717 - for a variety of reason there is close to a total market failure in medical care. There is not an example in the entire world where medical care policy works and is deregulated. Only in your imagination does any industry work as you seem to think. Read Adam Smith - both of his books.


Deregulated =/= no regulation. Your argument is invalid.


The left doesn’t want deregulation, they want big government control.
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Tugger
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:25 pm

DL717 wrote:
It’s unconstitutional because you can’t force people to buy a product.

Yes, you can.

There are many products and things that people require for life. And if it is needed governments and the public have been "forcing" people to buy things for as long as there have been communities. Building schools is a great example, its not a tax, but a fee assessed to all living in the area served. We all pay the fee one way or another.

Tugg
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:24 pm

Here is a good quote from medicaleconomics.com

The more you look into our healthcare system and its lack of transparency, the more you appreciate how ingenious it is. If you want to create a business that rains money, that allows you to consistently charge people five to ten times more than is reasonable and get away with it, here’s your model:

Take the matter out of the consumer’s hand.
Give the task of negotiating costs and choosing who delivers it to third parties.
Have the third parties convince consumers that they can spend consumers’ money better than the consumers can, and for that presumed benefit these middlemen can help themselves to a large portion of the consumers’ money.
Make the pricing structure unnecessarily complicated. Have many cost components (i.e., doctors, networks, facility fees, labs, medications). Create codes.
Charge absurd retail prices (Chargemaster) to make consumers believe they really are getting a deal.
Keep prices hidden, so consumers cannot know costs, and must purchase products and services on blind faith.
Only provide the price after the non-refundable services are rendered, then demand payment.
Send those who don’t pay to collections, then threaten to put a lien on their house.
Obstruct any bill or law that threatens the system.
If you’re really clever, call yourself a nonprofit, so you can avoid paying any taxes.


Medical economics are as complicated as agricultural economics. And both present intractable problems for government. But the farm sector does produce low food prices for the consumer.
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MSPNWA
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Tugger wrote:
DL717 wrote:
It’s unconstitutional because you can’t force people to buy a product.

Yes, you can.

There are many products and things that people require for life. And if it is needed governments and the public have been "forcing" people to buy things for as long as there have been communities. Building schools is a great example, its not a tax, but a fee assessed to all living in the area served. We all pay the fee one way or another.

Tugg


More alternative reality. The reason the individual mandate went to court is because it was unprecedented that people directly pay for a service simply for being alive. The Constitution didn't allow the practice until Roberts said so. Name one other thing that a person must directly pay for by simply being alive. I'll give you a hint. You won't find one.
 
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Berevoff
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:06 am

I have Obamacare and I just signed up for 2019 a few days ago. My premiums went up 160 a month over last year for a plan with the same coverage but 2000 more deductible.

I'm thankful to have it but its the last year I'll be able to even afford obamacare.
 
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:26 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Maybe there's enough votes in the SCOTUS to now support this. I hope so !!

Considering it was Roberts siding with the liberal justices upholding the law, I still think the math works against you. And this is but one step; next stop is the 5th Circuit which may or may not uphold the district judge's ruling.

seb146 wrote:
Republicans have been in control of Congress for how long and they have done exactly zero to improve ACA. They don't even have a replacement. They have a "wait and see" attitude, if anything.
And that may be what seals the GOP and Trump's defeats in the suburbs. We still haven't seen this amazing replacement for the ACA.

What's even funnier is seeing people run away from the lawsuit. Josh Hawley (newly elected senator from MO) insisted he did not support the lawsuit, despite his name being on the lawsuit as one of the AGs. Scott Walker was another guy who insisted he did not support the lawsuit, but was somehow ready to deal with the fallout (despite his name also being on the lawsuit).

I can't wait to see how this unfolds. If it's struck down, I can see the following:
1. Democrats let Republicans bask in the celebration (free footage for 2020 elections)
2. When people start seeing their coverage reduced to barebones with premiums skyrocketing, Democrats will roll out their proposals while Republicans will fret about what to do.
3. Democrats can reauthorize the ACA or bring Medicare for All to a floor vote, which (if it passes) will put Senate Republicans in a bind. And, because the ACA was considered a tax, it's the House who has to get the ball rolling if it's going down that path).
4. The Senate will balk, refusing to have a hearing or unable to agree on how to act.
5. Election 2020, with Trump and the GOP defeated. And I wouldn't be surprised if staunchly conservative states who have greatly benefited from the ACA decide to narrowly back a Democrat (whether for president, governor, senator, rep, or at the state level) due to the inability of the GOP to put out the fires it starts.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Pi7472000
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:46 am

Health care is a human right!! People deserve health care!! If someone gets AIDs, MS, or ALS we should not punish them, but provide them with all the comforts needed to survive. We need to tax the wealthy and the middle class to provide proper care. The Trump tax cuts should be rescinded immediately to support health care. It is disgusting that people in the U.S. believe otherwise. If climate change doesn't rid the Earth of humans, people 500 years from now will look upon our society as we look at the Middle ages. Human Rights before profits!! Just because white males grew up with health care doesn't mean we should deny the poor or minorities proper care.
 
AA747123
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:23 am

Dieuwer wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:

How much does your life have to suck for you to not only find happiness but to express what comes across as exuberance and joy in people losing access to affordable healthcare?


Its about being forced to buy a product I dont want to buy. Its about upholding the constitution. Why should I have to pay a higher tax to supplement someone else healthcare? For decades and decades we got by in this country WITHOUT mandatory health insurance. Socialized health care is socialism. Socialism leads to communism.

Look at prison. Fee housing in a gated community, free food for all, free healthcare for all, everyone is treated the same. Its a liberal paradise!


Are you one of those people who show up at the ER when injured, demand to get treated, but when the bill is due quickly vanish to never be heard from again?



No sir I pay my bills, I never go to the ER. I take care of myself. Health insurance is of no use to me.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:35 am

Health care is a human right!!


If it’s a right, is everyone due unlimited care? It’s s right after all. Who pays for your “rights”; who limits your access to the scarce resource you call a right?

GF
 
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seb146
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:47 am

AA747123 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
AA747123 wrote:

Its about being forced to buy a product I dont want to buy. Its about upholding the constitution. Why should I have to pay a higher tax to supplement someone else healthcare? For decades and decades we got by in this country WITHOUT mandatory health insurance. Socialized health care is socialism. Socialism leads to communism.

Look at prison. Fee housing in a gated community, free food for all, free healthcare for all, everyone is treated the same. Its a liberal paradise!


Are you one of those people who show up at the ER when injured, demand to get treated, but when the bill is due quickly vanish to never be heard from again?



No sir I pay my bills, I never go to the ER. I take care of myself. Health insurance is of no use to me.


It will be interesting to see your opinion when you are diagnosed with cancer, COPD, MS, and find out at the ER.....
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tommy1808
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:49 am

AA747123 wrote:
Trump will NEVER be impeached!


We will see...

What laws has he been convicted of?


Slept through civics class? It is impeach-> remove -> indict -> convict.

It all circumstantial accusations.


Dang, you missed a lot in the last couple of days....

A federal judge made everything laid our in Cohen's charge his own opinion. Which means a federal judge has already agreed in his ruling that Trump directed Cohen to commit crimes.

That is a bit above circumstantial...

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DL717
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:08 pm

Tugger wrote:
DL717 wrote:
It’s unconstitutional because you can’t force people to buy a product.

Yes, you can.

There are many products and things that people require for life. And if it is needed governments and the public have been "forcing" people to buy things for as long as there have been communities. Building schools is a great example, its not a tax, but a fee assessed to all living in the area served. We all pay the fee one way or another.

Tugg


False. Building and operating schools are paid for with taxes.
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casinterest
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:36 pm

DL717 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
DL717 wrote:
It’s unconstitutional because you can’t force people to buy a product.

Yes, you can.

There are many products and things that people require for life. And if it is needed governments and the public have been "forcing" people to buy things for as long as there have been communities. Building schools is a great example, its not a tax, but a fee assessed to all living in the area served. We all pay the fee one way or another.

Tugg


False. Building and operating schools are paid for with taxes.


For the benfit of all.

I would love for you to explain how the sick and elderly that need the majority of healthcare, can afford to work to pay for it.
I would love for you to explain how the care free young spirt that doesn't feel sick now will pay for cancer treatments later?
I would love for you to explain how an infant born into this world with a medical issue they didn't plan for can expect to pay for it.


People like you DL717 make me sick. you are either too dishonorable to care, or too stupid to recognize the truth of medical care .
The mods can delete this when they feel like it, but at some point people need to realize how dishonorably stupid they are.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
AA747123
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:39 pm

casinterest wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Yes, you can.

There are many products and things that people require for life. And if it is needed governments and the public have been "forcing" people to buy things for as long as there have been communities. Building schools is a great example, its not a tax, but a fee assessed to all living in the area served. We all pay the fee one way or another.

Tugg


False. Building and operating schools are paid for with taxes.


For the benfit of all.

I would love for you to explain how the sick and elderly that need the majority of healthcare, can afford to work to pay for it.
I would love for you to explain how the care free young spirt that doesn't feel sick now will pay for cancer treatments later?
I would love for you to explain how an infant born into this world with a medical issue they didn't plan for can expect to pay for it.


People like you DL717 make me sick. you are either too dishonorable to care, or too stupid to recognize the truth of medical care .
The mods can delete this when they feel like it, but at some point people need to realize how dishonorably stupid they are.


But why do you expect US to pay for it??? Why dont we just further increase taxes so everyone can have a home? Increase vehicle tax so everyone can have a car? Add a food tax so everyone can have free food? This is why socialism doesnt work!
 
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Tugger
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:01 pm

AA747123 wrote:
But why do you expect US to pay for it??? Why dont we just further increase taxes so everyone can have a home? Increase vehicle tax so everyone can have a car? Add a food tax so everyone can have free food?

Healthcare is not socialism, not matter what fantasy you live in. Access to healthcare is capitalistic.

Healthy people can work more and harder. Unhealthy people are a drag on productivity. Unhealthy people are a drag on those that must divert time and energy to assist those impacted by no/poor healthcare access (your brother, mother, son, wife etc.). Unhealthy people without someone to rely on for assistance then become an even larger burden to the state and "system" than those with access.

People with access to healthcare can return to the workforce sooner and with better results.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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casinterest
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:04 pm

AA747123 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
DL717 wrote:

False. Building and operating schools are paid for with taxes.


For the benfit of all.

I would love for you to explain how the sick and elderly that need the majority of healthcare, can afford to work to pay for it.
I would love for you to explain how the care free young spirt that doesn't feel sick now will pay for cancer treatments later?
I would love for you to explain how an infant born into this world with a medical issue they didn't plan for can expect to pay for it.


People like you DL717 make me sick. you are either too dishonorable to care, or too stupid to recognize the truth of medical care .
The mods can delete this when they feel like it, but at some point people need to realize how dishonorably stupid they are.


But why do you expect US to pay for it??? Why dont we just further increase taxes so everyone can have a home? Increase vehicle tax so everyone can have a car? Add a food tax so everyone can have free food? This is why socialism doesnt work!


Because health care isn't a want, it is a need. Especially for everyone that we need to be productive to give you those items such as a house and a car. We do have food taxes. social security, and low income subsidies to help those that cannot do so on their own afford a home.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
2122M
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:06 pm

AA747123 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
DL717 wrote:

False. Building and operating schools are paid for with taxes.


For the benfit of all.

I would love for you to explain how the sick and elderly that need the majority of healthcare, can afford to work to pay for it.
I would love for you to explain how the care free young spirt that doesn't feel sick now will pay for cancer treatments later?
I would love for you to explain how an infant born into this world with a medical issue they didn't plan for can expect to pay for it.


People like you DL717 make me sick. you are either too dishonorable to care, or too stupid to recognize the truth of medical care .
The mods can delete this when they feel like it, but at some point people need to realize how dishonorably stupid they are.


But why do you expect US to pay for it??? Why dont we just further increase taxes so everyone can have a home? Increase vehicle tax so everyone can have a car? Add a food tax so everyone can have free food? This is why socialism doesnt work!


Your tax money fixes roads that you will never drive on. It pays for small business subsidies to help stores you will never shop at. It pays for teacher salaries at schools you will never attend. It pays for soldiers and military hardware that will never see action. It pays for tax breaks to companies you will never patronize.

You live in a society that has already agreed to share the costs of its upkeep among the population. Once you accept that very easy and obvious fact, you can move on to the reality the Medicare for all is not some gigantic radical idea, its another way for million of people to pay a little for the overall health and wellbeing of the whole country.
Last edited by 2122M on Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
AA747123
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:18 pm

Tugger wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
But why do you expect US to pay for it??? Why dont we just further increase taxes so everyone can have a home? Increase vehicle tax so everyone can have a car? Add a food tax so everyone can have free food?

Healthcare is not socialism, not matter what fantasy you live in. Access to healthcare is capitalistic.

Healthy people can work more and harder. Unhealthy people are a drag on productivity. Unhealthy people are a drag on those that must divert time and energy to assist those impacted by no/poor healthcare access (your brother, mother, son, wife etc.). Unhealthy people without someone to rely on for assistance then become an even larger burden to the state and "system" than those with access.

People with access to healthcare can return to the workforce sooner and with better results.

Tugg


I never said healthcare is socialism. But FREE healthcare IS!
 
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casinterest
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:20 pm

AA747123 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
But why do you expect US to pay for it??? Why dont we just further increase taxes so everyone can have a home? Increase vehicle tax so everyone can have a car? Add a food tax so everyone can have free food?

Healthcare is not socialism, not matter what fantasy you live in. Access to healthcare is capitalistic.

Healthy people can work more and harder. Unhealthy people are a drag on productivity. Unhealthy people are a drag on those that must divert time and energy to assist those impacted by no/poor healthcare access (your brother, mother, son, wife etc.). Unhealthy people without someone to rely on for assistance then become an even larger burden to the state and "system" than those with access.

People with access to healthcare can return to the workforce sooner and with better results.

Tugg


I never said healthcare is socialism. But FREE healthcare IS!


How is it free if everyone pays taxes for it that can?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:23 pm

AA747123 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
But why do you expect US to pay for it??? Why dont we just further increase taxes so everyone can have a home? Increase vehicle tax so everyone can have a car? Add a food tax so everyone can have free food?

Healthcare is not socialism, not matter what fantasy you live in. Access to healthcare is capitalistic.

Healthy people can work more and harder. Unhealthy people are a drag on productivity. Unhealthy people are a drag on those that must divert time and energy to assist those impacted by no/poor healthcare access (your brother, mother, son, wife etc.). Unhealthy people without someone to rely on for assistance then become an even larger burden to the state and "system" than those with access.

People with access to healthcare can return to the workforce sooner and with better results.

Tugg


I never said healthcare is socialism. But FREE healthcare IS!

Why do you think it is free?
Only if you agree with those that want to eliminate the mandate. Everything has a cost. And offering access to healthcare to more people, while it does have a cost, the result is more people that are able to be more productive. And that in turn addresses the cost as everyone contributes.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
LMP737
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:25 pm

DL717 wrote:

It’s unconstitutional because you can’t force people to buy a product. Once the tax was stripped away, it became a product. Your statement about deregulation is also off base. The lack of deregulation is what causes those prices to go up. They know they can shake down the insurance companies because they can’t bargain outside a given state, there is literally zero competition in the health insurance indisutry. If you have Blue Cross in one state, it’s not the same as Blue Cross in another. They have to set up a sub company in every state they offer their insurance in, that has overhead and all kinds of other cost implications. Deregulation of aviation? Flying is cheaper. Deregulation of telecom? How’s that phone bill? Remember being owned by one local provider that choked your balls off on your phone bill? My phone bill is less today than it was 30 years ago, in real dollars it’s less than half. I remember racking up monthly $100 long distance bills during the holidays when I was in the military on my MCI card at $0.20 a minute. Same goes for auto and homeowners insurance which also needs deregulation. Deregulating allows a company to reduce closts by making a single product available to more people without massive overhead costs.


Sounds like the only solution is for a single payer system.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:24 pm

DL717 wrote:
It’s unconstitutional because you can’t force people to buy a product.


In many states, people are required to buy car insurance. So, clearly this is OK from a constitutional point of view (otherwise it would have been stricken down by SCOTUS, right?).
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:47 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
In many states, people are required to buy car insurance. So, clearly this is OK from a constitutional point of view (otherwise it would have been stricken down by SCOTUS, right?).


People are not required to own and operate a motor vehicle. Not the same thing. It's why one has stood and the other has not.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:53 pm

Tugger wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
But why do you expect US to pay for it??? Why dont we just further increase taxes so everyone can have a home? Increase vehicle tax so everyone can have a car? Add a food tax so everyone can have free food?

Healthcare is not socialism, not matter what fantasy you live in. Access to healthcare is capitalistic.

Healthy people can work more and harder. Unhealthy people are a drag on productivity. Unhealthy people are a drag on those that must divert time and energy to assist those impacted by no/poor healthcare access (your brother, mother, son, wife etc.). Unhealthy people without someone to rely on for assistance then become an even larger burden to the state and "system" than those with access.

People with access to healthcare can return to the workforce sooner and with better results.

Tugg


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

That is why, at the time we got our universal healthcare system, 1883 btw, there was pretty much no opposition from the industrial and financial elites.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Germany

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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casinterest
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:54 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
In many states, people are required to buy car insurance. So, clearly this is OK from a constitutional point of view (otherwise it would have been stricken down by SCOTUS, right?).


People are not required to own and operate a motor vehicle. Not the same thing. It's why one has stood and the other has not.



But bodies are not property, unless you are thinking of bringing back slavery?

People are endowed with them by life. So accidents, maintenance, and wear and tear are Guaranteed. Should we not have people pay for their needs though time from a common pool?
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Tugger
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:55 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
In many states, people are required to buy car insurance. So, clearly this is OK from a constitutional point of view (otherwise it would have been stricken down by SCOTUS, right?).


People are not required to own and operate a motor vehicle. Not the same thing. It's why one has stood and the other has not.

"The other has not"? What other do you refer?

If you mean the healthcare tax/fee, then you are not correct. It has stood, and been validated. This current court case has not yet completed its process. You can pontificate on what you think it will result in, but the fact is, the fee/tax has been validated and stood through several tests in the courts.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:54 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
In many states, people are required to buy car insurance. So, clearly this is OK from a constitutional point of view (otherwise it would have been stricken down by SCOTUS, right?).


People are not required to own and operate a motor vehicle. Not the same thing. It's why one has stood and the other has not.


People are not required to see a doctor or any other medical professional either. Maybe they should just die, yes? :roll:
But if you argue that insurance can be attached to "want" (I want I car, THEREFORE the state CAN force mandatory insurance), then you can attach insurance to the "want" of seeing doctors' or having hospital access.

Since I pretty much expect every person in the US to "want" to have access to medical care, mandatory insurance is legal and constitutional.
 
AA747123
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:55 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
DL717 wrote:
It’s unconstitutional because you can’t force people to buy a product.


In many states, people are required to buy car insurance. So, clearly this is OK from a constitutional point of view (otherwise it would have been stricken down by SCOTUS, right?).



Totally different comparison. The car insurance you are required to purchase is to protect OTHERS if you run into them, There is no law to cover your own property (comprehensive policy). Plus if you have the cash on hand you can post a bond to the state (each state is different) and that covers your liability.

So the car insurance requirement compared to health insurance is a false comparison.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:00 pm

AA747123 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
DL717 wrote:
It’s unconstitutional because you can’t force people to buy a product.


In many states, people are required to buy car insurance. So, clearly this is OK from a constitutional point of view (otherwise it would have been stricken down by SCOTUS, right?).



Totally different comparison. The car insurance you are required to purchase is to protect OTHERS if you run into them, There is no law to cover your own property (comprehensive policy). Plus if you have the cash on hand you can post a bond to the state (each state is different) and that covers your liability.

So the car insurance requirement compared to health insurance is a false comparison.


Someone could have communicable disease. Seeing a doctor and get treated would protectors OTHERS from getting infected and sick as well.
So yeah, SAME SAME.
 
D L X
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:19 pm

LittleSprocket wrote:
CPH-R wrote:
LittleSprocket wrote:
Great, now maybe we can get something that works AND actually reduces health care costs.

Hey, maybe Trump can finally get people that health insurance that, according to him, only cost $12-15 per month :sarcastic:


What's Trump got to do with this? I realize that you people here are obsessed with him 24/7 but you realize that laws are passed by Congress and only approved or vetoed by the President right? Sure he has some say but its CONGRESS that passes the laws.


He's the leader of the party that sued to bring this case against the ACA. He couldn't win legislatively, so he went to the courts.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:22 pm

D L X wrote:
LittleSprocket wrote:
CPH-R wrote:
Hey, maybe Trump can finally get people that health insurance that, according to him, only cost $12-15 per month :sarcastic:


What's Trump got to do with this? I realize that you people here are obsessed with him 24/7 but you realize that laws are passed by Congress and only approved or vetoed by the President right? Sure he has some say but its CONGRESS that passes the laws.


He's the leader of the party that sued to bring this case against the ACA. He couldn't win legislatively, so he went to the courts.


Trump signed the tax bill that stripped the ACA of it's mandatory tax. Thus opening the way for this ruling. Trump and the rest of the GOP now own a debacle that will work through the courts and leave the GOP embarrassed and the rest of us poorer for it, when once again the people of this nation demand
1. Coverage for Preexisting illnesses
2. No Lifetime Limits
3. Kids stay on the plan until 26 or they get a job with their own coverage

Then we have to find out how to pay for it, because apparently Donald Trump and company think bankruptcy is a viable option when you have the Russians ready to bankroll you.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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DL717
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:28 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
In many states, people are required to buy car insurance. So, clearly this is OK from a constitutional point of view (otherwise it would have been stricken down by SCOTUS, right?).


People are not required to own and operate a motor vehicle. Not the same thing. It's why one has stood and the other has not.


He's also conflating a State Tax with a Federal one. And yeah, you only pay it if you buy buy a car. You can even drive one without it assuming the owner is insured. Again, that's a State requirement. There's nothing stopping a State from having its own health insurance program either.

casinterest wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Yes, you can.

There are many products and things that people require for life. And if it is needed governments and the public have been "forcing" people to buy things for as long as there have been communities. Building schools is a great example, its not a tax, but a fee assessed to all living in the area served. We all pay the fee one way or another.

Tugg


False. Building and operating schools are paid for with taxes.


For the benfit of all.

I would love for you to explain how the sick and elderly that need the majority of healthcare, can afford to work to pay for it.
I would love for you to explain how the care free young spirt that doesn't feel sick now will pay for cancer treatments later?
I would love for you to explain how an infant born into this world with a medical issue they didn't plan for can expect to pay for it.


People like you DL717 make me sick. you are either too dishonorable to care, or too stupid to recognize the truth of medical care .
The mods can delete this when they feel like it, but at some point people need to realize how dishonorably stupid they are.


Unlike you. I presented a solution to the problem:

DL717 wrote:
It’s unconstitutional because you can’t force people to buy a product. Once the tax was stripped away, it became a product. Your statement about deregulation is also off base. The lack of deregulation is what causes those prices to go up. They know they can shake down the insurance companies because they can’t bargain outside a given state, there is literally zero competition in the health insurance indisutry. If you have Blue Cross in one state, it’s not the same as Blue Cross in another. They have to set up a sub company in every state they offer their insurance in, that has overhead and all kinds of other cost implications. Deregulation of aviation? Flying is cheaper. Deregulation of telecom? How’s that phone bill? Remember being owned by one local provider that choked your balls off on your phone bill? My phone bill is less today than it was 30 years ago, in real dollars it’s less than half. I remember racking up monthly $100 long distance bills during the holidays when I was in the military on my MCI card at $0.20 a minute. Same goes for auto and homeowners insurance which also needs deregulation. Deregulating allows a company to reduce costs by making a single product available to more people without massive overhead costs.


You think Government is the answer, that's your opinion. Problem is the Government can't tie its own shoes.

Dieuwer wrote:
People are not required to see a doctor or any other medical professional either. Maybe they should just die, yes? :roll:
But if you argue that insurance can be attached to "want" (I want I car, THEREFORE the state CAN force mandatory insurance), then you can attach insurance to the "want" of seeing doctors' or having hospital access.

Since I pretty much expect every person in the US to "want" to have access to medical care, mandatory insurance is legal and constitutional.


You're mixing a product with a service. Health insurance is a product.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:05 am

Chaostheory wrote:
apodino wrote:
Interstingly enough, Churchill went the other way on this and that is how the NHS in the UK was founded.



You're wrong on this bit.

Neither Churchill nor his conservative colleagues supported the founding of the NHS. The creation of the NHS was entirely the Labour party's doing. Funnily enough, most doctors were against the NHSat the time too.

Actually, it was the Tories. Conservative MP and Health Minister, Henry Willink that first proposed the NHS and the authored the NHS white paper in 1944. That became legislation in 1946 ('47 Scotland) with cross party support . Labour got into power before the NHS launched properly in '48 and consequently took/milked the credit.
The fact 'it was entirely Labour's doing" is a complete and utter myth.
Labour changed it from a system which had local administration & control to a centralised one: this is what the Tories & Doctors were against, they feared it'd depersonalise the doctor/patient relationship. Ironically, it's spent the last 70 years heading back towards to the locally administered system it was supposed to be.
 
LMP737
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:36 am

DL717 wrote:
It’s unconstitutional because you can’t force people to buy a product. .


Really? Every state I've ever lived in you have you were required to have car insurance. If you got caught without it officer friendly wrote you a ticket.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 5664
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:47 am

Dieuwer wrote:
DL717 wrote:
It’s unconstitutional because you can’t force people to buy a product.


In many states, people are required to buy car insurance. So, clearly this is OK from a constitutional point of view (otherwise it would have been stricken down by SCOTUS, right?).


The states have “police power” on its citizens which is not in the Constitution, as decided in past SCOTUS rulings. My state can pass laws governing my behavior or requiring actions by me, this was not a power of the Federal government. If my state wants to require health coverage, I don’t like it but they have that power. If those wanting Federal funding of health care, build a political case for an amendment, like was done before the FDR administration ran roughshod over the process, have Congress write the amendment and have 38 states ratify it.

GF
 
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Tugger
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:54 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The states have “police power” on its citizens which is not in the Constitution, as decided in past SCOTUS rulings. My state can pass laws governing my behavior or requiring actions by me, this was not a power of the Federal government. If my state wants to require health coverage, I don’t like it but they have that power. If those wanting Federal funding of health care, build a political case for an amendment, like was done before the FDR administration ran roughshod over the process, have Congress write the amendment and have 38 states ratify it.

That is why each states runs its own healthcare process under the the system.
What does Social Security and Medicare and Welfare and other national programs have that national healthcare does not?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:33 am

I’m getting confused now.
Please explain to me in simple but accurate terms why a state can force people to buy health insurance, but the US cannot. How can both be legal at the same time (“Constitutional”)??
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:55 am

Simple example, states set legal drinking age, not Federal government. When Liddy Dole wanted to make it 21 nation-wide, she pass propose a law usurping state power to regulate drinking age, she just conditioned Federal road aid on passing a 21-year drinking age. Several states held out, but eventually folded.

Read the 10th Amendment and Section 8 of Article 1. Any power NOT in Section 8 is for the states. That’s why states built the interstate highways with 90% Federal money.


GF
 
bagoldex
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:33 am

LMP737 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
It’s unconstitutional because you can’t force people to buy a product. .


Really? Every state I've ever lived in you have you were required to have car insurance. If you got caught without it officer friendly wrote you a ticket.


You're not required by law to own a car though.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:34 am

"This decision is great, we will have a great healthcare system with the help of the Democrats" First we must kill the precondition section of course. This sounds familiar to me somehow. I have read this or seen this before somewhere. :banghead:
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Federal judge in Texas rules Affordable Health Care Act unconstitutional

Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:59 am

DL717 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Yes, you can.

There are many products and things that people require for life. And if it is needed governments and the public have been "forcing" people to buy things for as long as there have been communities. Building schools is a great example, its not a tax, but a fee assessed to all living in the area served. We all pay the fee one way or another.

Tugg


False. Building and operating schools are paid for with taxes.


For the benfit of all.

I would love for you to explain how the sick and elderly that need the majority of healthcare, can afford to work to pay for it.
I would love for you to explain how the care free young spirt that doesn't feel sick now will pay for cancer treatments later?
I would love for you to explain how an infant born into this world with a medical issue they didn't plan for can expect to pay for it.


Unlike you. I presented a solution to the problem:

DL717 wrote:
It’s unconstitutional because you can’t force people to buy a product. Once the tax was stripped away, it became a product. Your statement about deregulation is also off base. The lack of deregulation is what causes those prices to go up. They know they can shake down the insurance companies because they can’t bargain outside a given state, there is literally zero competition in the health insurance indisutry. If you have Blue Cross in one state, it’s not the same as Blue Cross in another. They have to set up a sub company in every state they offer their insurance in, that has overhead and all kinds of other cost implications. Deregulation of aviation? Flying is cheaper. Deregulation of telecom? How’s that phone bill? Remember being owned by one local provider that choked your balls off on your phone bill? My phone bill is less today than it was 30 years ago, in real dollars it’s less than half. I remember racking up monthly $100 long distance bills during the holidays when I was in the military on my MCI card at $0.20 a minute. Same goes for auto and homeowners insurance which also needs deregulation. Deregulating allows a company to reduce costs by making a single product available to more people without massive overhead costs.


You think Government is the answer, that's your opinion. Problem is the Government can't tie its own shoes.



The tax was stripped away as a budgeting tool and I expect it to be challenged under that basis when it gets to the supreme court.
But Medical Care is not a product. It is a service. I do not go to a Dr. to get asprin, advil, bandaids, tylenol, or vitamins. I go when I can't diagnose my issues , and i need someone who offers that service and is trained in providing the best care and analysis for it. That is a service.

As for deregulation of Telecom, that was for a product that became a monopoly over long distance lines through consolidation. When it was broken up, it became a well deregulated space.

Unlike Telecom services, people cannot delay life critical treatments until they get a paycheck from the Government to refill their MCI cards.
The Government was your solution while you were in the military.

Does the ACA need fixing, yes.
Does it need to be tossed out? No.

Purchasing of Medical insurance and licensing of Dr's should be approved across state lines. Prescription drug companies should not get patent renewals for mediocre increments in effective drugs. Prices for common services and Drugs should be presented for all items with a common insurance discount.

However we still need people that can work and provide for themselves to help pay for a combined need for services. No one knows when we will need it
The Tax Mandate that the GOP tossed out did nothing to the heart of the bill other than increase the taxes. The Government still has to fund the medical costs of the ACA. .
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