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MaverickM11
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Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:34 pm

"The regulation was signed Tuesday by Acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker. It will take effect 90 days after it is published in the Federal Register, which is expected to happen Friday.

Bump stock owners will be required to either destroy them or surrender them to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, a senior Justice Department official said. "

https://www.apnews.com/6c1af80fb290472c89fb930e223505af
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bennett123
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:55 pm

I did not expect that.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:06 pm

Cue an NRA-sponsored legal challenge in 3...2...1...
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johns624
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:13 pm

scbriml wrote:
Cue an NRA-sponsored legal challenge in 3...2...1...
They'll make a show of it but won't really push it. When the sheep are convinced that the gungrabbers are on the doorstep, donations to the NRA go way up. A legal challenge that may succeed is that people will be forced to turn in or destroy personal property without compensation.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:56 pm

Legal challenges already went up yesterday after the DOJ posted the language on their website. I actually think a couple of them may have success given the language used. It won't stop the overall ban, just force the DOJ to do a few edits is all.

A few things I found kind of silly about this.

1) They explicitly note that this is a ban on the bump stock hardware itself, not the act of "bump firing." What does that mean? It means you can still fire rapidly if you understand the concept of what a bump stock is doing, it's just not as easy.
2) Destroying a bump stock can be (they haven't yet quantified what destroyed means) as simple as removing a pin. In its un-assembled state it is no longer a bump stock and nothing they can do legally - at least from my reading of this. So theoretically a mad-man could just leave it un-assembled until they want to use it. The same is true for short barrel rifles. Without a stock, a short barrel rifle becomes a pistol and does not require a stamp from ATF. But as soon as you put a stock on it, it becomes "illegal" without a stamp from the ATF for the short barrel. Transitioning a AR-15 Pistol platform to a Short Barrel Rifle takes less than a minute. But in reality, no-one really needs or cares about that so it's not something anyone fusses about.

A couple of anecdotes from myself.

1) People who hunt, or shoot professionally don't use or care for bump stocks. They're impractical, they cause jams and don't really do you any good. In an untrained shooters hands they can actually be dangerous if they aren't aware of the mechanics of what's actually happening. It's a novelty.
2) A ban would not have prevented any single mass shooting ever. Even the Las Vegas shooting, which shed light on bump stocks (and actually probably resulted in more sales of bump stocks due to media spotlight) would not have been prevented with this ban. That said, it is probable, that less people would have been injured or killed in said shooting (though not guaranteed, as I noted earlier, "bump firing" is something that can be obtained without a bump stock).
3) I personally don't care if they ban Bump stocks, as I think they're dumb. What I have a problem with is some of the language used in the regulation. And the fact that it's really not going to do anything to stop future mass shootings.

What I don't understand though, is why the Trump admin is doing this. It isn't going to gain them any ground on the right. And there's no way this will placate anyone on the left. So this is really not a political winner. So this just must be something Trump feels strongly about?
 
LittleFokker
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:19 pm

scbriml wrote:
Cue an NRA-sponsored legal challenge in 3...2...1...


The NRA is broke. Once their Russian connections were exposed, they money supply dried up real quick. They might have bigger priorities than filing lawsuits. I wouldn't be surprised if they fold in the next year.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-nra-j ... -in-income

http://www.nationalmemo.com/nra-rapidly ... ales-drop/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 76671.html
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
LMP737
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:28 pm

LittleFokker wrote:

The NRA is broke. Once their Russian connections were exposed, they money supply dried up real quick. They might have bigger priorities than filing lawsuits. I wouldn't be surprised if they fold in the next year.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-nra-j ... -in-income

http://www.nationalmemo.com/nra-rapidly ... ales-drop/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 76671.html


I doubt that they will fold. They just won't have as much money for politicians.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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seb146
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:18 am

trpmb6 wrote:
What I don't understand though, is why the Trump admin is doing this. It isn't going to gain them any ground on the right. And there's no way this will placate anyone on the left. So this is really not a political winner. So this just must be something Trump feels strongly about?


I wonder if someone under him put this out there? I don't think the orange one cares. Maybe someone under him is trying to save face and do something people can point to and say "yeah, well.... he did try to stop mass shootings."

I find it interesting there is not the outrage and gnashing of teeth and screaming there was when Democrats asked to ban bump stocks.
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trpmb6
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:51 am

seb146 wrote:

I find it interesting there is not the outrage and gnashing of teeth and screaming there was when Democrats asked to ban bump stocks.


I don't recall that to be honest. Most people I know (who are fairly avid hunters/ sport shooters / own many guns) didn't even know what bump stocks were. Our collective reaction in the aftermath of LAS shooting was indifference (towards bump stocks) - they really are useless - nothing more than a waste of (20 cents times 30 in 30 seconds) at a farm (because no gun range would allow you to use one, before or after ban). And I can tell you from experience, when you go range shooting, it's not to go blow your whole load at once. ( :mrgreen: )
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:11 am

seb146 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
What I don't understand though, is why the Trump admin is doing this. It isn't going to gain them any ground on the right. And there's no way this will placate anyone on the left. So this is really not a political winner. So this just must be something Trump feels strongly about?


I wonder if someone under him put this out there? I don't think the orange one cares. Maybe someone under him is trying to save face and do something people can point to and say "yeah, well.... he did try to stop mass shootings."

I find it interesting there is not the outrage and gnashing of teeth and screaming there was when Democrats asked to ban bump stocks.


No, he did it to pander towards moderate leaning democrats, knowing full well that the law will be thrown out on multiple grounds. Fifth Amendment Takings clause being the most obvious of the bunch.

Not to mention, if you know anything about firearms, you can bump fire easier without one of these gimmick stocks than with it.
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salttee
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:29 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Not to mention, if you know anything about firearms, you can bump fire easier without one of these gimmick stocks than with it.

I know a lot about firearms. Straight up, you're full of shit. Bump stocks turn semi auto rifles into full auto weapons. It's that simple.

trpmb6 wrote:
1) People who hunt, or shoot professionally don't use or care for bump stocks. They're impractical, they cause jams and don't really do you any good. In an untrained shooters hands they can actually be dangerous if they aren't aware of the mechanics of what's actually happening. It's a novelty.

Right, the only thing they are good for is the way Stephen Paddock used his bump stock rifle.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:43 am

salttee wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Not to mention, if you know anything about firearms, you can bump fire easier without one of these gimmick stocks than with it.

I know a lot about firearms. Straight up, you're full of shit. Bump stocks turn semi auto rifles into full auto weapons. It's that simple.

trpmb6 wrote:
1) People who hunt, or shoot professionally don't use or care for bump stocks. They're impractical, they cause jams and don't really do you any good. In an untrained shooters hands they can actually be dangerous if they aren't aware of the mechanics of what's actually happening. It's a novelty.

Right, the only thing they are good for is the way Stephen Paddock used his bump stock rifle.


Obviously you don't, because by definition, they do not. A full auto weapon fires until the weapon runs out of ammunition with a single pull of the trigger. Bump firing (thru the use of a bump stock or otherwise) is a single round of ammunition fired for a single pull of the trigger.
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Tugger
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:10 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
salttee wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Not to mention, if you know anything about firearms, you can bump fire easier without one of these gimmick stocks than with it.

I know a lot about firearms. Straight up, you're full of shit. Bump stocks turn semi auto rifles into full auto weapons. It's that simple.

trpmb6 wrote:
1) People who hunt, or shoot professionally don't use or care for bump stocks. They're impractical, they cause jams and don't really do you any good. In an untrained shooters hands they can actually be dangerous if they aren't aware of the mechanics of what's actually happening. It's a novelty.

Right, the only thing they are good for is the way Stephen Paddock used his bump stock rifle.


Obviously you don't, because by definition, they do not. A full auto weapon fires until the weapon runs out of ammunition with a single pull of the trigger. Bump firing (thru the use of a bump stock or otherwise) is a single round of ammunition fired for a single pull of the trigger.

Anytime you have to run back to "definition" vs effect in reality it that means you are just trying to make a legalistic argument. I assume you argue equally hard on "dwarf planet" vs "planet" controversy.... seriously.

You want a better threading a definition needle than you did, go here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6oaRAgdslE
Excellent review of what they are and their effectiveness as a precision weapon addition.

Put simply, if you want to spray a large'ish volume of bullets, not caring too much about accuracy because you just want to cause mayhem and don't care who dies, then a bump-fire stock does a damn fine job of doing that on a short term basis. Especially for what this dipsh!t had planned.

Now as for the ban? It is mostly, if not completely, meaningless. It won't affect much if any crime as basically no crime is driven by or dependent on bump stocks, and they are very easy to make if you really do want to use something like it. Soo... the ban is really just pablum for the masses.

Tugg
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NIKV69
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:56 am

Not a big fan of those things. Doubt the NRA will raise much fuss.
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seb146
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:42 am

trpmb6 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

I find it interesting there is not the outrage and gnashing of teeth and screaming there was when Democrats asked to ban bump stocks.


I don't recall that to be honest. Most people I know (who are fairly avid hunters/ sport shooters / own many guns) didn't even know what bump stocks were. Our collective reaction in the aftermath of LAS shooting was indifference (towards bump stocks) - they really are useless - nothing more than a waste of (20 cents times 30 in 30 seconds) at a farm (because no gun range would allow you to use one, before or after ban). And I can tell you from experience, when you go range shooting, it's not to go blow your whole load at once. ( :mrgreen: )


Literally every time there is a mass shooting, the gun nuts start crying and whining about "liberals" will ban guns. After the Las Vegas shooting, the same thing. Every gun nut came from the woodwork and started in with the slippery slope argument so we can't ban bump stocks. Now there is talk of banning bump stocks, the same people are now "meh... let him..." I don't get it. When "liberals" do it, there is outrage and frothing at the mouth about how sacred the last four words of the Second Amendment is but, now. those same people do not care.
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seb146
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:45 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
salttee wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Not to mention, if you know anything about firearms, you can bump fire easier without one of these gimmick stocks than with it.

I know a lot about firearms. Straight up, you're full of shit. Bump stocks turn semi auto rifles into full auto weapons. It's that simple.

trpmb6 wrote:
1) People who hunt, or shoot professionally don't use or care for bump stocks. They're impractical, they cause jams and don't really do you any good. In an untrained shooters hands they can actually be dangerous if they aren't aware of the mechanics of what's actually happening. It's a novelty.

Right, the only thing they are good for is the way Stephen Paddock used his bump stock rifle.


Obviously you don't, because by definition, they do not. A full auto weapon fires until the weapon runs out of ammunition with a single pull of the trigger. Bump firing (thru the use of a bump stock or otherwise) is a single round of ammunition fired for a single pull of the trigger.


You seem to explain this, Diamond, but the next time someone uses this exact definition, you will point out how uneducated they are. Just like every time.

I have asked for a definitive answer as to what is automatic and semi automatic. I use that and I am still told how I don't know what I am talking about.

Maybe you gun nuts and ammosexuals need to know what you are talking about.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
WIederling
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:20 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Obviously you don't, because by definition, they do not. A full auto weapon fires until the weapon runs out of ammunition with a single pull of the trigger. Bump firing (thru the use of a bump stock or otherwise) is a single round of ammunition fired for a single pull of the trigger.


you can split hairs finely. congrats.

The overall system now shows "fully automatic fire" functionality.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:35 pm

seb146 wrote:

I have asked for a definitive answer as to what is automatic and semi automatic. I use that and I am still told how I don't know what I am talking about.

Maybe you gun nuts and ammosexuals need to know what you are talking about.


Technically speaking Diamond isn't wrong. A bump stock is still "Semi-Auto" because it requires a separate trigger pull for each firing. There are other ways to achieve a similar result, if you practice and know how to do it. Some paintballers might know about the "finger rolling" technique, which is, admittedly, more difficult to do on a firearm with more recoil, but a .223 AR-15 doesn't have much recoil to begin with anyways. Bump firing, with enough practice, can be as effective as bump stocks.

The main difference here is, a fully automatic weapon does not require separate trigger pulls, and does not result in translating of the weapon (to produce the bump firing result). This means you can be far more accurate because the only thing you are fighting is recoil, which we've gotten pretty good at mitigating/minimizing. Even still, most marksman will tell you fully automatic is not meant for precision either. In a war time scenario it's more of a suppressing fire type of thing. Besides, automatic weapons (and weapons using bump stocks) jam far too easily anyways - a jammed weapon is useless to you in the moment you need it most.

I'm one of those "gun nuts" / "ammosexuals" (your words, I prefer to think of it as exercising my rights) and I think we can have a very honest and reasonable discussion. I believe my post above reflects the reality of this and strips emotions away from the discussion. I mostly use my firearms for hunting purposes. I do some sport shooting. All are locked up (even the ammo - because ammo ain't cheap), including the one in my bedside safe. I don't own weapons to emasculate myself. I don't have some strange complex. I'm just a normal person. If you want to have an honest discussion about the merits of firearm ownership I'm all for it. But I'm not going to participate if others aren't willing to engage in good faith.
 
salttee
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:51 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Technically speaking Diamond isn't wrong.

But other than the wiggle room afforded by "technical speak" Diamond is lying, and you're his assistant liar.
Bump stocks allow semi auto rifles to be fired at full auto rate. That's why people buy them that's what they're used for.

Go wiggle out of that.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:57 pm

salttee wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Technically speaking Diamond isn't wrong.

But other than the wiggle room afforded by "technical speak" Diamond is lying, and you're his assistant liar.
Bump stocks allow semi auto rifles to be fired at full auto rate. That's why people buy them that's what they're used for.

Go wiggle out of that.


There's no "wiggle out of that" - I've literally said this myself. You're just wanting to attack people about this even though nobody here is really all that worked up about banning bump stocks. The only issue I have with banning bump stocks is it is completely useless and symbolic.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:04 pm

salttee wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Technically speaking Diamond isn't wrong.

But other than the wiggle room afforded by "technical speak" Diamond is lying, and you're his assistant liar.
Bump stocks allow semi auto rifles to be fired at full auto rate. That's why people buy them that's what they're used for.

Go wiggle out of that.


The point you are missing is that a bump stock isn’t required to bump fire a rifle. A normal rifle is just as capable of bump firing if you hold it right and use your trigger finger in the correct manner. Want to ban that too?
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WIederling
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:02 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
salttee wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Technically speaking Diamond isn't wrong.

But other than the wiggle room afforded by "technical speak" Diamond is lying, and you're his assistant liar.
Bump stocks allow semi auto rifles to be fired at full auto rate. That's why people buy them that's what they're used for.

Go wiggle out of that.


The point you are missing is that a bump stock isn’t required to bump fire a rifle. A normal rifle is just as capable of bump firing if you hold it right and use your trigger finger in the correct manner. Want to ban that too?


Ban? I'd go for amputation. works as a strong reminder on what not to do :-)
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stratclub
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:09 pm

johns624 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Cue an NRA-sponsored legal challenge in 3...2...1...
They'll make a show of it but won't really push it. When the sheep are convinced that the gungrabbers are on the doorstep, donations to the NRA go way up. A legal challenge that may succeed is that people will be forced to turn in or destroy personal property without compensation.

Why should someone be compensated for having to stop using something that is illegal? That really is absurd.

I do think that more and more people are getting really tired of the NRA's second amendment lie. Chief Justice Warren Burger certainly understood the lie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh_yz76hlW0
 
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Tugger
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:20 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
salttee wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Technically speaking Diamond isn't wrong.

But other than the wiggle room afforded by "technical speak" Diamond is lying, and you're his assistant liar.
Bump stocks allow semi auto rifles to be fired at full auto rate. That's why people buy them that's what they're used for.

Go wiggle out of that.


The point you are missing is that a bump stock isn’t required to bump fire a rifle. A normal rifle is just as capable of bump firing if you hold it right and use your trigger finger in the correct manner. Want to ban that too?

I would assume you know full well that extended bump fire with just your finger is very wearing on the person physically and are just making the argument that it can be done?

Like many inventions, the bump stock just makes it vastly easier to do what a human could otherwise do. You can argue it but this is the truth.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
salttee
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:30 pm

Tugger wrote:
bump fire with just your finger is very wearing on the person physically

Not only that, but who is going to be aiming the thing let alone even looking downrange while attempting to reach harmonic convergence with their shootin iron?
 
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smithbs
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:34 pm

I'm not sure what the drama is about here. The arguments against banning the devices is very muted. Did the NRA not say they were not in opposition to the ban? The vast majority of people are fine with the ban - what organized mainstream group is complaining?

Now, you can snipe at the wording of the law and its application all day long - that's the typical bureaucratic wordsmithing you get in firearms regulations these days. But I think that's a separate issue and has long been a bone of contention between lawful firearms owners* and the BATF.

* I am one.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:38 pm

seb146 wrote:
I find it interesting there is not the outrage and gnashing of teeth and screaming there was when Democrats asked to ban bump stocks.


It's far more interesting that those that wanted this regulation are now strangely silent on giving credit to the Trump Administration.

You see, we're not partisan hacks. We're not told what to think by our political party. We're not restricted to only praising our party and criticizing the other. We're not forced to be hypocrites in order to save face.

On the surface this regulation has very little to no affect on gun users, but the way it's worded is chilling in re-defining firearms, and it's probably going to be ruled unconstitutional because of no compensation for legal owners of the tool. It sets a dangerous precedent. It's the bad move by the Trump Administration, and to me makes no sense to even implement. It's like it was drafted to placate democrats, but that's fool's gold since we know they don't act in good faith and won't think any more highly of you. All this does is alienate the wishes of those that voted for you.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:07 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I find it interesting there is not the outrage and gnashing of teeth and screaming there was when Democrats asked to ban bump stocks.


It's far more interesting that those that wanted this regulation are now strangely silent on giving credit to the Trump Administration.

You see, we're not partisan hacks. We're not told what to think by our political party. We're not restricted to only praising our party and criticizing the other. We're not forced to be hypocrites in order to save face.

On the surface this regulation has very little to no affect on gun users, but the way it's worded is chilling in re-defining firearms, and it's probably going to be ruled unconstitutional because of no compensation for legal owners of the tool. It sets a dangerous precedent. It's the bad move by the Trump Administration, and to me makes no sense to even implement. It's like it was drafted to placate democrats, but that's fool's gold since we know they don't act in good faith and won't think any more highly of you. All this does is alienate the wishes of those that voted for you.


Which is basically what I said
 
slider
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:41 pm

scbriml wrote:
Cue an NRA-sponsored legal challenge in 3...2...1...


The NRA has been on record endorsing such a ban for years. It was Obama who actually relaxed this.

For the record. So we're clear.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:43 pm

slider wrote:

It was Obama who actually relaxed this.



I wasn't going to pull the "but Obama" card yet because well, that apparently isn't good enough for anyone here.

Previous poster did make a good point, no one who supports this ban seems to be praising the trump admin for enacting it. ;)
 
LittleFokker
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:09 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I find it interesting there is not the outrage and gnashing of teeth and screaming there was when Democrats asked to ban bump stocks.


It's far more interesting that those that wanted this regulation are now strangely silent on giving credit to the Trump Administration.

You see, we're not partisan hacks. We're not told what to think by our political party. We're not restricted to only praising our party and criticizing the other. We're not forced to be hypocrites in order to save face.

On the surface this regulation has very little to no affect on gun users, but the way it's worded is chilling in re-defining firearms, and it's probably going to be ruled unconstitutional because of no compensation for legal owners of the tool. It sets a dangerous precedent. It's the bad move by the Trump Administration, and to me makes no sense to even implement. It's like it was drafted to placate democrats, but that's fool's gold since we know they don't act in good faith and won't think any more highly of you. All this does is alienate the wishes of those that voted for you.


This is a small bit of positive legislation that at least gives a modicrum of hope that our gun problem will someday be solved.

Also, Trump is a racist piece of shit undeserving of the highest office with the trashiest of trash people who love and support him.

Both statements can be true at the same time.
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
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casinterest
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Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:11 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I find it interesting there is not the outrage and gnashing of teeth and screaming there was when Democrats asked to ban bump stocks.


It's far more interesting that those that wanted this regulation are now strangely silent on giving credit to the Trump Administration.

You see, we're not partisan hacks. We're not told what to think by our political party. We're not restricted to only praising our party and criticizing the other. We're not forced to be hypocrites in order to save face.

On the surface this regulation has very little to no affect on gun users, but the way it's worded is chilling in re-defining firearms, and it's probably going to be ruled unconstitutional because of no compensation for legal owners of the tool. It sets a dangerous precedent. It's the bad move by the Trump Administration, and to me makes no sense to even implement. It's like it was drafted to placate democrats, but that's fool's gold since we know they don't act in good faith and won't think any more highly of you. All this does is alienate the wishes of those that voted for you.


It has a big effect on Gun owners and on those that would want to commit a crime of mass murder. Bump stocks are an intermediate and close step to fully automatic machine guns which are banned for a reason.

These are not tools of sportsmanship or hunting . They are tools for the mass firing to make up for the inability to aim the gun at a discriminate target. Do you know what gave rise to automatic weapons? WW1, when the combatants decided that war should be truly hellish and indiscriminate for those fighting it. Marksman ship and rifles were no match for weapons that could fire multiple rounds.

I give full credit for the Trump organization making this first step towards solving what has become a disturbing issue in the US with the mentally ill able to commit mass murder with a little more ease.

Responsible gun owners that I know , fully understand that a bump stock is not a tool of self defense , or of sportsmanship. This is why the NRA is currently very mute on the issue.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3352
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:21 pm

casinterest wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I find it interesting there is not the outrage and gnashing of teeth and screaming there was when Democrats asked to ban bump stocks.


It's far more interesting that those that wanted this regulation are now strangely silent on giving credit to the Trump Administration.

You see, we're not partisan hacks. We're not told what to think by our political party. We're not restricted to only praising our party and criticizing the other. We're not forced to be hypocrites in order to save face.

On the surface this regulation has very little to no affect on gun users, but the way it's worded is chilling in re-defining firearms, and it's probably going to be ruled unconstitutional because of no compensation for legal owners of the tool. It sets a dangerous precedent. It's the bad move by the Trump Administration, and to me makes no sense to even implement. It's like it was drafted to placate democrats, but that's fool's gold since we know they don't act in good faith and won't think any more highly of you. All this does is alienate the wishes of those that voted for you.


It has a big effect on Gun owners and on those that would want to commit a crime of mass murder. Bump stocks are an intermediate and close step to fully automatic machine guns which are banned for a reason.

These are not tools of sportsmanship or hunting . They are tools for the mass firing to make up for the inability to aim the gun at a discriminate target. Do you know what gave rise to automatic weapons? WW1, when the combatants decided that war should be truly hellish and indiscriminate for those fighting it. Marksman ship and rifles were no match for weapons that could fire multiple rounds.

I give full credit for the Trump organization making this first step towards solving what has become a disturbing issue in the US with the mentally ill able to commit mass murder with a little more ease.

Responsible gun owners that I know , fully understand that a bump stock is not a tool of self defense , or of sportsmanship. This is why the NRA is currently very mute on the issue.


The 2nd Amendment has no words containing sportsmanship or hunting. I couldn't give 2 shits less about bump stocks, they're dumb, you can bump fire just as easily without the stock as you can with the stock. My issues is two fold; government taking personal property without compensation for the property (takings clause). The simply could have said no more bump stocks and grandfathered in what's out there. Secondly, is the continuing trend in this country of bureaucrats (who are not elected and have no accountability to the people) are legislating rather than the legislature doing such a thing. I'd have no problem with Congress legislating these things out of legality, but to do it the way it's being done is shady.
From my cold, dead hands
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 11289
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:29 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:

It's far more interesting that those that wanted this regulation are now strangely silent on giving credit to the Trump Administration.

You see, we're not partisan hacks. We're not told what to think by our political party. We're not restricted to only praising our party and criticizing the other. We're not forced to be hypocrites in order to save face.

On the surface this regulation has very little to no affect on gun users, but the way it's worded is chilling in re-defining firearms, and it's probably going to be ruled unconstitutional because of no compensation for legal owners of the tool. It sets a dangerous precedent. It's the bad move by the Trump Administration, and to me makes no sense to even implement. It's like it was drafted to placate democrats, but that's fool's gold since we know they don't act in good faith and won't think any more highly of you. All this does is alienate the wishes of those that voted for you.


It has a big effect on Gun owners and on those that would want to commit a crime of mass murder. Bump stocks are an intermediate and close step to fully automatic machine guns which are banned for a reason.

These are not tools of sportsmanship or hunting . They are tools for the mass firing to make up for the inability to aim the gun at a discriminate target. Do you know what gave rise to automatic weapons? WW1, when the combatants decided that war should be truly hellish and indiscriminate for those fighting it. Marksman ship and rifles were no match for weapons that could fire multiple rounds.

I give full credit for the Trump organization making this first step towards solving what has become a disturbing issue in the US with the mentally ill able to commit mass murder with a little more ease.

Responsible gun owners that I know , fully understand that a bump stock is not a tool of self defense , or of sportsmanship. This is why the NRA is currently very mute on the issue.


The 2nd Amendment has no words containing sportsmanship or hunting. I couldn't give 2 shits less about bump stocks, they're dumb, you can bump fire just as easily without the stock as you can with the stock. My issues is two fold; government taking personal property without compensation for the property (takings clause). The simply could have said no more bump stocks and grandfathered in what's out there. Secondly, is the continuing trend in this country of bureaucrats (who are not elected and have no accountability to the people) are legislating rather than the legislature doing such a thing. I'd have no problem with Congress legislating these things out of legality, but to do it the way it's being done is shady.


It's called the executive branch, and they can actually make choices on what to enforce of the laws that are present. Those orders can them be challenged in court and judged on. Then if the legislative branch doesn't like what is done, they can create a new law.

Bump stocks were made "legal" by an executive order, and they can be made "illegal" by the same process, unless the above happens.

As for illegality and compensation, there has never been a case for compensating when items are made illegal. There can be incentives.

But generally speaking, who is going to want compensation for what turns out to be about 1-10 bucks of plastic or metal anyway? The original purchase cost will still be ignored.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
Ken777
Posts: 10048
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:58 pm

IMO Trump is probably trying to distract Americans from his "Current Big Problems" - namely the Trump Foundation that the NY AG is shutting down, fining him millions, reviewing the level of legality of Swamp Mouth and his older siblings, etc. He wants to keep that painting and football helmet. He also wants voters to look somewhere else.

Bump stocks are really small fry,, but the NRA has their own Russian problems now so it's a good time to toss that issue in.

Even a bigger distraction is Swamp Mouth's decision to remove our military from Syria, without ANY discussions with Defense or State leaders/experts.

Great distraction for the voters and a Christmas present for Putin. Pity the Senate Armed Services Committee will not having a hearing before they head home for the Holidays. Maybe in January.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1690
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:08 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:

It's far more interesting that those that wanted this regulation are now strangely silent on giving credit to the Trump Administration.

You see, we're not partisan hacks. We're not told what to think by our political party. We're not restricted to only praising our party and criticizing the other. We're not forced to be hypocrites in order to save face.

On the surface this regulation has very little to no affect on gun users, but the way it's worded is chilling in re-defining firearms, and it's probably going to be ruled unconstitutional because of no compensation for legal owners of the tool. It sets a dangerous precedent. It's the bad move by the Trump Administration, and to me makes no sense to even implement. It's like it was drafted to placate democrats, but that's fool's gold since we know they don't act in good faith and won't think any more highly of you. All this does is alienate the wishes of those that voted for you.


It has a big effect on Gun owners and on those that would want to commit a crime of mass murder. Bump stocks are an intermediate and close step to fully automatic machine guns which are banned for a reason.

These are not tools of sportsmanship or hunting . They are tools for the mass firing to make up for the inability to aim the gun at a discriminate target. Do you know what gave rise to automatic weapons? WW1, when the combatants decided that war should be truly hellish and indiscriminate for those fighting it. Marksman ship and rifles were no match for weapons that could fire multiple rounds.

I give full credit for the Trump organization making this first step towards solving what has become a disturbing issue in the US with the mentally ill able to commit mass murder with a little more ease.

Responsible gun owners that I know , fully understand that a bump stock is not a tool of self defense , or of sportsmanship. This is why the NRA is currently very mute on the issue.


The 2nd Amendment has no words containing sportsmanship or hunting. I couldn't give 2 shits less about bump stocks, they're dumb, you can bump fire just as easily without the stock as you can with the stock. My issues is two fold; government taking personal property without compensation for the property (takings clause). The simply could have said no more bump stocks and grandfathered in what's out there. Secondly, is the continuing trend in this country of bureaucrats (who are not elected and have no accountability to the people) are legislating rather than the legislature doing such a thing. I'd have no problem with Congress legislating these things out of legality, but to do it the way it's being done is shady.
It does mention well regulated though. Of course it doesn't actually mention guns at all. I demand my constitutionally protected atomic weapon!
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 3018
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:08 pm

I'm actually a little surprised they didn't opt for making bump stocks to require an ATF stamp. That would have been the easiest solution.
 
johns624
Posts: 2725
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:36 pm

stratclub wrote:
johns624 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Cue an NRA-sponsored legal challenge in 3...2...1...
They'll make a show of it but won't really push it. When the sheep are convinced that the gungrabbers are on the doorstep, donations to the NRA go way up. A legal challenge that may succeed is that people will be forced to turn in or destroy personal property without compensation.

Why should someone be compensated for having to stop using something that is illegal? That really is absurd.

I do think that more and more people are getting really tired of the NRA's second amendment lie. Chief Justice Warren Burger certainly understood the lie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh_yz76hlW0
No, it's not absurd. When people bought the item, it was legal (it still is). They spent their own money to buy a legal product. They would be out the money they spent on it. It's covered under the 5th Amendment where the government cannot seize private property without compensation. Look at it this way--You own a Porsche 911. The govt passes a law making any car that can go faster than 70mph illegal. You have to surrender it or destroy it without compensation. Would that be okay with you?
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22323
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:38 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I find it interesting there is not the outrage and gnashing of teeth and screaming there was when Democrats asked to ban bump stocks.


It's far more interesting that those that wanted this regulation are now strangely silent on giving credit to the Trump Administration.

You see, we're not partisan hacks. We're not told what to think by our political party. We're not restricted to only praising our party and criticizing the other. We're not forced to be hypocrites in order to save face.

On the surface this regulation has very little to no affect on gun users, but the way it's worded is chilling in re-defining firearms, and it's probably going to be ruled unconstitutional because of no compensation for legal owners of the tool. It sets a dangerous precedent. It's the bad move by the Trump Administration, and to me makes no sense to even implement. It's like it was drafted to placate democrats, but that's fool's gold since we know they don't act in good faith and won't think any more highly of you. All this does is alienate the wishes of those that voted for you.


Then why, every time there is a mass shooting, you all cry and scream that we can not talk about doing anything? After the Las Vegas shooting, you gun nuts were OUTRAGED!!! that "liberals" would try to ban legal weapons like bump stocks and that "liberals" had no clue what bump stocks were. Now, you gun nuts demand we praise individual #1 for trying to ban bump stocks. We tried doing that and the same cast of characters shut that legislation down.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 3018
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:41 pm

johns624 wrote:
No, it's not absurd. When people bought the item, it was legal (it still is). They spent their own money to buy a legal product. They would be out the money they spent on it. It's covered under the 5th Amendment where the government cannot seize private property without compensation. Look at it this way--You own a Porsche 911. The govt passes a law making any car that can go faster than 70mph illegal. You have to surrender it or destroy it without compensation. Would that be okay with you?


First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

(Sure hyperbole, but gets the point across)
 
stratclub
Posts: 1372
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:12 pm

johns624 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
johns624 wrote:
They'll make a show of it but won't really push it. When the sheep are convinced that the gungrabbers are on the doorstep, donations to the NRA go way up. A legal challenge that may succeed is that people will be forced to turn in or destroy personal property without compensation.

Why should someone be compensated for having to stop using something that is illegal? That really is absurd.

I do think that more and more people are getting really tired of the NRA's second amendment lie. Chief Justice Warren Burger certainly understood the lie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh_yz76hlW0
No, it's not absurd. When people bought the item, it was legal (it still is). They spent their own money to buy a legal product. They would be out the money they spent on it. It's covered under the 5th Amendment where the government cannot seize private property without compensation. Look at it this way--You own a Porsche 911. The govt passes a law making any car that can go faster than 70mph illegal. You have to surrender it or destroy it without compensation. Would that be okay with you?


Your argument is even more absurd. Pretty sure you are referring to Due Process and Eminent Domain. With your reasoning a Heroin dealer should be compensated for loss of "product" if his "product" is confiscated. Heroin at one point in time was legal.

Confiscating something that is illegal is not the same as confiscating something for public use through Eminent Domain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Ame ... ue_process
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 3018
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:51 pm

Just wait til the Government decides that Pink IZOD shirts should be banned, confiscated and/or destroyed without compensation.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 11289
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:11 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Just wait til the Government decides that Pink IZOD shirts should be banned, confiscated and/or destroyed without compensation.

Pink Izods are worth something?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 3018
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:33 pm

casinterest wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Just wait til the Government decides that Pink IZOD shirts should be banned, confiscated and/or destroyed without compensation.

Pink Izods are worth something?


:spit:

Shots fired!

:duck:
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:54 pm

Hmm, I'm gonna disagree slightly with saltee, they aren't technically automatic...... But in effect they practically are. I only say that because if you use your belt to bump fire (a common technique to bump fire) few would consider your belt turning the weapon into an automatic.

But let's be real, it replicates automatic fire. And DiamondFlyer, what technique would you use to bump fire? Bump fire isn't that hard to do, but I don't think you can do anything practical with it. Let's face it, bump stocks enable very easy automatic-ish fire. Accuracy is degraded, but it's still a lot of bullets going down range quickly.

I don't see much of a legal problem. They banned devices that would press the trigger multiple times when you pushed the device once. Apples to oranges? Idk, it's a bit different, but the outcome is the same.

You're not gonna see mass shootings with people bump firing the traditional way. We've seen (and I'm sure would see more of) people using bump stocks. I was always of the mindset of not fully banning things but ramping up the control and difficulty to possess, but that's usually seen as too gun grabby or too gun nutty for most
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:23 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Hmm, I'm gonna disagree slightly with saltee, they aren't technically automatic......

That's just a rhetorical trick you're using. There is no official definition or arbiter for this "technical definition" you guys are postulating. This "technical definition" is all your own invention, it doesn't exist as fact.

When someone who pretends to be nothing other than a neophyte asks the simple question that Seb146 asked above, that person deserves a honest answer, not a rhetorical gimmick. The honest answer is that a bump stock converts a semi automatic rifle into a fully automatic weapon.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:02 am

salttee wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
Hmm, I'm gonna disagree slightly with saltee, they aren't technically automatic......

That's just a rhetorical trick you're using. There is no official definition or arbiter for this "technical definition" you guys are postulating. This "technical definition" is all your own invention, it doesn't exist as fact.

When someone who pretends to be nothing other than a neophyte asks the simple question that Seb146 asked above, that person deserves a honest answer, not a rhetorical gimmick. The honest answer is that a bump stock converts a semi automatic rifle into a fully automatic weapon.


We (the US) do have an arbiter who is tasked with making official definitions, they are the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. My bad though, I was using automatic weapons, the term we should be using is "machine guns," and the technical definition is:

Firearms within the definition of machinegun include weapons that shoot, are designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading by a single function of the trigger.


You are probably thinking that bump stocks fit that definition, but the BATFE has ruled than it doesn't since it's the combination of factors including recoil that causes a cycle of multiple pulls of the trigger.

Look, I don't like semantics, but when you're arguing the legality of things... words matter. I guess you could argue the BATFE is wrong, but that's different than pretending these definitions can't be defined and there isn't an official definition/agency out there that decide these things.

I don't know what you're going on about, I agreed with you almost 100%. But definitionally, at least according to the definition makers in our country, sorry, these aren't defined as machine guns (automatic weapons are defined in this category.)

It isn't an automatic weapon (machinegun) which is why the BATFE already reviewed them and haven't ruled them as machinegun but they are in a category that essentially replicates the effect and which is why they should be banned or at least heavily regulated like any other NFA item
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:15 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
I was using automatic weapons, the term we should be using is "machine guns," and the technical definition is:

"We should be using"? Who me? Are you saying that if I word my responses the way you want me to, then you'll be right?
Are you serious?

It's all so simple, why not just give Seb the simple answer he asked for?
a bump stock converts a semi automatic rifle into a fully automatic weapon.

And cut the bullshit.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:21 am

salttee wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
I was using automatic weapons, the term we should be using is "machine guns," and the technical definition is:

"We should be using"? Who me? Are you saying that if I word my responses the way you want me to, then you'll be right?
Are you serious?

It's all so simple, why not just give Seb the simple answer he asked for?
a bump stock converts a semi automatic rifle into a fully automatic weapon.

And cut the bullshit.

Oh get over yourself dude, I'm tired of you getting butthurt over every single reply to you. If:
a bump stock converts a semi automatic rifle into a fully automatic weapon.

then it would have been ILLEGAL according to the BATFE which has already looked into bump stocks. If they (the OFFICIAL regulatory agency that deals with these matters in America) believed that bump stocks made a weapon fully automatic, they'd be defined as a machinegun and subject to the NFA. They ain't. Take it up with the BATFE
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:57 am

Who has gotten "butthurt"? LOL

You just keep painting yourself further and further into a corner. Now you want to use legal definitions and it is obvious that you have zero legal training. Not only do you want to use technical legal terms in a colloquial conversation, you want to modify your wording as you go along in order to accommodate your acquired on the fly legal theories.

You freely jumped into this conversation with your rambling post #45. No one solicited your opinion. If you're "tired" of the way the conversation has gone then you should stop trying to twist logic to suit your whims. You started out poorly in post #45 and you've gone downhill from there; now you've arrived at personal attack in your effort to "win". Please stop.

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