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DIRECTFLT
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:36 am

Mattis could have given Trump the "Obama" treatment, meaning Mattis could have have just resigned without notice. Kind of like how Mattis was replaced as head of Central Command by President Obama without any notice. Mattis's aide handed him a note advising him that The Pentagon had announced his replacement. All of this happening with Mattis being told first.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:57 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Mattis could have given Trump the "Obama" treatment, meaning Mattis could have have just resigned without notice. Kind of like how Mattis was replaced as head of Central Command by President Obama without any notice. Mattis's aide handed him a note advising him that The Pentagon had announced his replacement. All of this happening with Mattis being told first.



But, but, but, but, Obama, the usual BS. That was then, this is now. Obviously, Mattis had enough self respect to know when enough is enough from this clown.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:02 am

I thought liberals were supposed to be against wars and foreign occupation? These are real lives and we shouldn't be playing a game of toy soliders with them. Bring every US soldier home from those hell holes. Typical liberal hypocrites.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:05 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I thought liberals were supposed to be against wars and foreign occupation? These are real lives and we shouldn't be playing a game of toy soliders with them. Bring every US soldier home from those hell holes. Typical liberal hypocrites.


What so we can have the hell holes here, not the way it works if one has the brains to realize that. :banghead:
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:14 am

WarRI1 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I thought liberals were supposed to be against wars and foreign occupation? These are real lives and we shouldn't be playing a game of toy soliders with them. Bring every US soldier home from those hell holes. Typical liberal hypocrites.


What so we can have the hell holes here, not the way it works if one has the brains to realize that. :banghead:


There are no hell holes in the US. We don't treat women as property nor do we throw gay people off the roofs of buildings. There is also no death penalty for not recognizing a certain deity. The civilized world should cut off all contact with those countries and leave them to rot
 
alfa164
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:19 am

WarRI1 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Mattis could have given Trump the "Obama" treatment, meaning Mattis could have have just resigned without notice. Kind of like how Mattis was replaced as head of Central Command by President Obama without any notice. Mattis's aide handed him a note advising him that The Pentagon had announced his replacement. All of this happening with Mattis being told first.

But, but, but, but, Obama, the usual BS. That was then, this is now. Obviously, Mattis had enough self respect to know when enough is enough from this clown.


As they say... "Elect a clown, expect a circus..."

;)
 
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WarRI1
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:26 am

alfa164 wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Mattis could have given Trump the "Obama" treatment, meaning Mattis could have have just resigned without notice. Kind of like how Mattis was replaced as head of Central Command by President Obama without any notice. Mattis's aide handed him a note advising him that The Pentagon had announced his replacement. All of this happening with Mattis being told first.

But, but, but, but, Obama, the usual BS. That was then, this is now. Obviously, Mattis had enough self respect to know when enough is enough from this clown.


As they say... "Elect a clown, expect a circus..."

;)


We certainly have one for sure. It unfortunately does not qualify as the Greatest Show on Earth. The biggest circus's were three ringers, this Administration must have 20 rings, a scandal going on in every ring every day. A full compliment of clowns in this show. :eek: ;)
 
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WarRI1
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:29 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I thought liberals were supposed to be against wars and foreign occupation? These are real lives and we shouldn't be playing a game of toy soliders with them. Bring every US soldier home from those hell holes. Typical liberal hypocrites.


What so we can have the hell holes here, not the way it works if one has the brains to realize that. :banghead:


There are no hell holes in the US. We don't treat women as property nor do we throw gay people off the roofs of buildings. There is also no death penalty for not recognizing a certain deity. The civilized world should cut off all contact with those countries and leave them to rot



I suggest a full regime of reading newspapers and history books to get better informed on the history and present day of the US. Of course we still prefer to keep the fighting over there, not here.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:41 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I thought liberals were supposed to be against wars and foreign occupation? These are real lives and we shouldn't be playing a game of toy soliders with them. Bring every US soldier home from those hell holes. Typical liberal hypocrites.


You see, the thing is many of us get branded as "liberals" when we don't actually fit into the box you made for us.

Any of us who serve or have served any role in national defense understand the value of the military, what the military budget is actually buying us, and care a whole lot about not making massive strategic mistakes that will undo anything that resembles "progress" in the conflicts we've invested massive amounts of money and lives in.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:54 am

LittleFokker wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
casinterest wrote:



zakuivcustom wrote:


Yeah don't get me wrong, I get it, but I've mostly seen these as more right-wing arguments for why we are still there.

I hate shoving people in pure right-wing or left-wing camps and am welcome to some opinions that are some sort of gray area, but I tend to see more posts advocating withdrawal* and more posts against Trump*

Again, not trying to pin anyone into a corner, I really don't care what yall think, I just find this thread interesting. I know there are plenty of avenues where you're against the wars, against Trump, for Matthis for the most part, and against some parts of this withdrawal. Just thought I'd see more... happiness over the (potential) drawdowns?

* Not saying you guys or most/all/some of your posts fit this...


I hate that we were in Syria at all, I hate that we went to Iraq (Afghanistan was somewhat defensible though executed poorly) both times, I hate that we were in Korea and Vietnam. It's not popular to say, but America's war record since WWII has been really disappointing and pathetic. We haven't really "won" a war since then - all we've done is accomplish a minor goal while making things worse and destabilizing shit overall, all at the expense of the betterment of our own society. I would love to see us responsibly exit the regions, though A) The way Trump is doing it sure as hell ain't responsible (Twitter declaration; no consultation with Generals or other relevant leaders), and B) One could argue there isn't a way to responsibly exit these areas with all the damage and chaos we've created.


ISIS was a direct result of George W.'s invasion of Iraq. We put ba'athist party leadership in poorly secured prisons, probably used "advanced interrogation" techniques on them, and then pulled out of Iraq. These were Saddam's right hand men. We took some of the most blood thirsty people in the world, with vast strategic knowledge and competence, tortured them and left them in an easily jail-breakable situation. They broke out of prison and became ISIS leadership.

We created that mess, and that was our mess to clean up. Let's not forget that.
 
salttee
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:11 am

Jouhou wrote:
ISIS was a direct result of George W.'s invasion of Iraq. We put ba'athist party leadership in poorly secured prisons, probably used "advanced interrogation" techniques on them, and then pulled out of Iraq. These were Saddam's right hand men. We took some of the most blood thirsty people in the world, with vast strategic knowledge and competence, tortured them and left them in an easily jail-breakable situation. They broke out of prison and became ISIS leadership.

We created that mess, and that was our mess to clean up. Let's not forget that.
A more accurate way to look at it would be to see that we knocked the Sunnis out of power in the region thus giving the power to the Shiias. In practice there has been a magnifying effect which has come from the failure of the "Arab Spring" in what is the old Mesopotamia. So we have the Alawite Syrian regime which has allied itself with the Shiias coupled with Shiia Iraq and Shiia Iran as the power block running the region. There is no place for the Sunnis except for Saudi Arabia. The rest of the Sunni population of the region are the odd men out. They have no place to go but to Islamic militancy. So yea, we created the present circumstance, but I don't see how we can do anything to resolve this situation we created. We can fan a secular war of Sunni vs Shiia easy enough, that's the path we are currently on, but as far as I can see that will just lead to endless war. If you see any light at the end of that tunnel please explain to me what direction it will come from.

I know that your interest centers around the Kurds, but if you accept the fact that there will never (in our lifetimes) be an independent Kurdistan - because none of the nations in the region will permit it - (beginning with, but not limited to Turkey) then you must recognize that there is no amount of US military power short of all out war that can improve the Kurd's position and future prospects. So that's a dead end and we should not pretend it is anything other than a dead end.

The best way we can help clean up that mess is to stop making the mess. We need to get out of Mesopotamia for their good and for our good. Let Russia have it, or let Europe have it but we need to let it go.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:44 am

salttee wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
ISIS was a direct result of George W.'s invasion of Iraq. We put ba'athist party leadership in poorly secured prisons, probably used "advanced interrogation" techniques on them, and then pulled out of Iraq. These were Saddam's right hand men. We took some of the most blood thirsty people in the world, with vast strategic knowledge and competence, tortured them and left them in an easily jail-breakable situation. They broke out of prison and became ISIS leadership.

We created that mess, and that was our mess to clean up. Let's not forget that.
A more accurate way to look at it would be to see that we knocked the Sunnis out of power in the region thus giving the power to the Shiias. In practice there has been a magnifying effect which has come from the failure of the "Arab Spring" in what is the old Mesopotamia. So we have the Alawite Syrian regime which has allied itself with the Shiias coupled with Shiia Iraq and Shiia Iran as the power block running the region. There is no place for the Sunnis except for Saudi Arabia. The rest of the Sunni population of the region are the odd men out. They have no place to go but to Islamic militancy. So yea, we created the present circumstance, but I don't see how we can do anything to resolve this situation we created. We can fan a secular war of Sunni vs Shiia easy enough, that's the path we are currently on, but as far as I can see that will just lead to endless war. If you see any light at the end of that tunnel please explain to me what direction it will come from.

I know that your interest centers around the Kurds, but if you accept the fact that there will never (in our lifetimes) be an independent Kurdistan - because none of the nations in the region will permit it - (beginning with, but not limited to Turkey) then you must recognize that there is no amount of US military power short of all out war that can improve the Kurd's position and future prospects. So that's a dead end and we should not pretend it is anything other than a dead end.

The best way we can help clean up that mess is to stop making the mess. We need to get out of Mesopotamia for their good and for our good. Let Russia have it, or let Europe have it but we need to let it go.


I don't think you are actually getting my point on the kurds. Turkey wants Kurds dead. Who gives a shit about them having their own nation when the concern is that Turkey is using rhetoric that is paving the way for an ethnic cleansing to take place? Erdogan is a really bad guy. He's also basically made it a death sentence to show opposition towards him. He is a dictator now.

I'm talking about genocide here ffs.
 
salttee
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:07 am

The Kurd region is huge, it spans across four nation's territories. In Turkey it comprises about 25% of the land area and consists of about 14 million people.

You think Turkey is going to kill all these people?
What do you base this on?
 
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Jouhou
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:39 am

salttee wrote:
The Kurd region is huge, it spans across four nation's territories. In Turkey it comprises about 25% of the land area and consists of about 14 million people.

You think Turkey is going to kill all these people?
What do you base this on?


Because they are barely performing a hair above "ethnic cleansing" with their own turkish citizens of Kurdish descent. Read the Wikipedia page I posted on this. They've already convinced turkish citizens that every Syrian Kurd is "PKK" and out to damage the Turkish state. That rhetoric is giving me a very bad feeling knowing what history has shown to precede genocides. Their replacement of Kurds with Arabs in Afrin also is quite alarming.
 
salttee
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:04 am

Every Syrian Kurd is "PKK", at least in their hearts. And from Erdoğan's POV they are out to harm Turkey's interests.

Yea, sure it's alarming. If what goes on in the world bothers you this much I think you're looking too closely. You'd be better to stick to the homes and gardens section of the newspaper.

It's going to be brutal and ugly but the Kurds are going to be beaten into submission. The actual crime occurred back in 2003 - 2004 when the US handed them guns and promised them freedom. You really need a new hobby because this is going to go on whether you like it or not.

Screaming genocide just makes you look like a crazy person.

I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:35 am

salttee wrote:
Every Syrian Kurd is "PKK", at least in their hearts. And from Erdoğan's POV they are out to harm Turkey's interests.

Yea, sure it's alarming. If what goes on in the world bothers you this much I think you're looking too closely. You'd be better to stick to the homes and gardens section of the newspaper.

It's going to be brutal and ugly but the Kurds are going to be beaten into submission. The actual crime occurred back in 2003 - 2004 when the US handed them guns and promised them freedom. You really need a new hobby because this is going to go on whether you like it or not.

Screaming genocide just makes you look like a crazy person.

I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you.


You appear to have some kind of cognitive bias going on here. Like I've said repeatedly, you only have to look at their previous excursions into Syria to see that their stated intentions to target only "terrorists" is a lie. I'm sure people turned a blind eye to disturbing trends with every ethnic cleansing campaign in history.

I'm pretty sure Macron has voiced concerns similar to my own on this issue. I'm not alone here.

If your bias arises from a pro-turkey stance, also realize it hasn't been the country we once knew since 2016.
 
salttee
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:10 am

My cognitive bias is toward accepting the things I cannot change, hopefully the wherewithal to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Railing about this one is a waste of time as is railing about many other human disasters that are currently ongoing on this planet. A couple of my private causes are the ethnic cleansings of the Uyghurs in Xinjiang and the Palestinians in the Levant. But I try not to get over worked up about either of those knowing that there are a half a dozen other tragedies going on in other parts of the globe.

Just so you know, I am far far from being pro-Turk, but I do see that what we have now in Turkey is the least foul of all possibilities for what Turkey can evolve or collapse into. To paraphrase Joni Mitchell's observation: some people don't know what they've got til it's gone.

After all, didn't we take down Saddam because he was gassing Kurds?
 
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Jouhou
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:14 am

salttee wrote:
My cognitive bias is toward accepting the things I cannot change, hopefully the wherewithal to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Railing about this one is a waste of time as is railing about many other human disasters that are currently ongoing on this planet. A couple of my private causes are the ethnic cleansings of the Uyghurs in Xinjiang and the Palestinians in the Levant. But I try not to get over worked up about either of those knowing that there are a half a dozen other tragedies going on in other parts of the globe.

Just so you know, I am far far from being pro-Turk, but I do see that what we have now in Turkey is the least foul of all possibilities for what Turkey can evolve or collapse into. To paraphrase Joni Mitchell's observation: some people don't know what they've got til it's gone.

After all, didn't we take down Saddam because he was gassing Kurds?


Yes, and I'm seeing a strong correlation between the Iraqi Ba'athist campaign against Kurds and what the Turks have done so far in Syria.

I've had a very strong distrust in the Turkish government since 2016. While the coup attempt was still happening and before the Turkish government wiped out internet chatter about it off the internet it was strongly suggested that the coup plot was about overthrowing the government officials who were actively conspiring and selling out their country to Russia, which included Erdogan. I also first heard details that have since been confirmed about Russian interference in our election from the Turkish internet community during the coup attempt. I'm pretty sure that chatter has turned out to be quite credible.

There seems to be a Putin-Erdogan-Trump link that we will know more about as details of our own Russia investigation come out. I do actually have a fairly good idea of how Erdogan and Putin became aligned despite previously being adversaries. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fethullah_Gülen stepped on the toes of both leaders during his anti-corruption campaign.
 
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seahawk
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:32 am

It was always the typical fate of allies of the US, in the end you get abandoned and smashed. Ask the South Vietnamese or the Kurds probably everybody who was with the northern Alliance in Afghanistan and now the Kurds again.

But it is nice to see that Trump prefers to make deals with Erdogan, Putin and Kim and not even bothers to inform his NATO allies before he makes a decision. That really puts the USA in spotlight as a leader of the free and democratic world. Won´t be long before he hands over Gülen.
 
WIederling
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:39 am

WarRI1 wrote:
What so we can have the hell holes here, not the way it works if one has the brains to realize that. :banghead:


Taste your own medicine for a chance? I'd recommend that strongly. Maybe it brings some change in attitude.
Most of those hellholes exist thanks to US intervention ( military or subversive )
 
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Jouhou
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:40 am

seahawk wrote:
It was always the typical fate of allies of the US, in the end you get abandoned and smashed. Ask the South Vietnamese or the Kurds probably everybody who was with the northern Alliance in Afghanistan and now the Kurds again.

But it is nice to see that Trump prefers to make deals with Erdogan, Putin and Kim and not even bothers to inform his NATO allies before he makes a decision. That really puts the USA in spotlight as a leader of the free and democratic world. Won´t be long before he hands over Gülen.


Makes it even clearer there is some kind of alliance between putin erdogan and trump that needs to be exposed to the public sooner rather than later. I hope the eventual outcome will be a renewed sense of purpose within NATO and an acknowledgement that Russia is more aggressive when it's weak and we never should have let our guards down.
 
tommy1808
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:24 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I thought liberals were supposed to be against wars and foreign occupation? These are real lives and we shouldn't be playing a game of toy soliders with them. Bring every US soldier home from those hell holes. Typical liberal hypocrites.


Ah.. so you are promoting aiding and abetting genocide. How good of you!
"These are real lives" ... as if you cared.

Best regards
Thomas
 
salttee
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:34 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Yes, and I'm seeing a strong correlation between the Iraqi Ba'athist campaign against Kurds and what the Turks have done so far in Syria.

"Correlation" is the wrong word to use in that sentence. There is similarity, but not correlation.

Jouhou wrote:
There seems to be a Putin-Erdogan-Trump link that we will know more about as details of our own Russia investigation come out. I do actually have a fairly good idea of how Erdogan and Putin became aligned despite previously being adversaries. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fethullah_Gülen stepped on the toes of both leaders during his anti-corruption campaign.

Turkey and Russia have a long and hostile history together. Erdogan would love to stick it to the US and the west but he has a major problem where it comes to playing a Russia card to achieve that. Russia has always coveted the Bosporus and Turkey is within striking distance for the Russian Army. The distaste each country has for the other is palpable. That's why Turkey has been the southeastern linchpin of NATO for the last 70 years. Yet the scenario of a bond between Russia and Turkey is so unsettling that it can't be ignored. Erdogan is making very public moves toward Russia with the S-400 deal etc, and that keeps everyone off balance. Erdogan is not to be fucked with; he may be crazy enough to cast Turkey's fate into the hands of Putin's good will. Not likely, but still..............

Then there is the other option for Erdogan, going full on Islamic Fundamentalist, but that too has its dangers. He could easily lose control of that situation.

So in a sense Erdogan is trapped into the policy he is following; if he follows through on either of his threats, he then commits himself and his country to a single course of action where he might not remain in complete control.

IMO Therefore, it is in our interests to not rock his boat, certainly not threaten military action over something as trivial as the fate of the Kurds.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:41 pm

salttee wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Yes, and I'm seeing a strong correlation between the Iraqi Ba'athist campaign against Kurds and what the Turks have done so far in Syria.

"Correlation" is the wrong word to use in that sentence. There is similarity, but not correlation.

Jouhou wrote:
There seems to be a Putin-Erdogan-Trump link that we will know more about as details of our own Russia investigation come out. I do actually have a fairly good idea of how Erdogan and Putin became aligned despite previously being adversaries. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fethullah_Gülen stepped on the toes of both leaders during his anti-corruption campaign.

Turkey and Russia have a long and hostile history together. Erdogan would love to stick it to the US and the west but he has a major problem where it comes to playing a Russia card to achieve that. Russia has always coveted the Bosporus and Turkey is within striking distance for the Russian Army. The distaste each country has for the other is palpable. That's why Turkey has been the southeastern linchpin of NATO for the last 70 years. Yet the scenario of a bond between Russia and Turkey is so unsettling that it can't be ignored. Erdogan is making very public moves toward Russia with the S-400 deal etc, and that keeps everyone off balance. Erdogan is not to be fucked with; he may be crazy enough to cast Turkey's fate into the hands of Putin's good will. Not likely, but still..............

Then there is the other option for Erdogan, going full on Islamic Fundamentalist, but that too has its dangers. He could easily lose control of that situation.

So in a sense Erdogan is trapped into the policy he is following; if he follows through on either of his threats, he then commits himself and his country to a single course of action where he might not remain in complete control.

IMO Therefore, it is in our interests to not rock his boat, certainly not threaten military action over something as trivial as the fate of the Kurds.


Who threatened military action? If we really leave the Kurds by their selves we need to threaten automatic sanctions if they decide they need to go in to kill the "terrorists"
 
tommy1808
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:17 pm

Jouhou wrote:
salttee wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Yes, and I'm seeing a strong correlation between the Iraqi Ba'athist campaign against Kurds and what the Turks have done so far in Syria.

"Correlation" is the wrong word to use in that sentence. There is similarity, but not correlation.

Jouhou wrote:
There seems to be a Putin-Erdogan-Trump link that we will know more about as details of our own Russia investigation come out. I do actually have a fairly good idea of how Erdogan and Putin became aligned despite previously being adversaries. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fethullah_Gülen stepped on the toes of both leaders during his anti-corruption campaign.

Turkey and Russia have a long and hostile history together. Erdogan would love to stick it to the US and the west but he has a major problem where it comes to playing a Russia card to achieve that. Russia has always coveted the Bosporus and Turkey is within striking distance for the Russian Army. The distaste each country has for the other is palpable. That's why Turkey has been the southeastern linchpin of NATO for the last 70 years. Yet the scenario of a bond between Russia and Turkey is so unsettling that it can't be ignored. Erdogan is making very public moves toward Russia with the S-400 deal etc, and that keeps everyone off balance. Erdogan is not to be fucked with; he may be crazy enough to cast Turkey's fate into the hands of Putin's good will. Not likely, but still..............

Then there is the other option for Erdogan, going full on Islamic Fundamentalist, but that too has its dangers. He could easily lose control of that situation.

So in a sense Erdogan is trapped into the policy he is following; if he follows through on either of his threats, he then commits himself and his country to a single course of action where he might not remain in complete control.

IMO Therefore, it is in our interests to not rock his boat, certainly not threaten military action over something as trivial as the fate of the Kurds.


Who threatened military action? If we really leave the Kurds by their selves we need to threaten automatic sanctions if they decide they need to go in to kill the "terrorists"


Have sanctions ever stoped a genocide? If they decide to do that only fighters with weapons hanging under their wings, and RoE allowing to use them, will stop Erdogan.
Maybe the first time that NATO troops did fire at Turkish troops won't be the last time.

Best regards
Thomas
 
bennett123
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:01 pm

 
wingman
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:01 pm

WIederling wrote:
Most of those hellholes exist thanks to US intervention ( military or subversive )

But in the end it all comes back to your grandparents and their friends gassing 6M Jews doesn't it? You sound just like them too..you simply traded in the Scary Jew bogeyman for the USA to help yourself "understand" the root cause of all evil.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:37 pm

casinterest wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
I'm not trying to paint anyone in a corner (I'm really not,) but what are some of yall's opinions on the drawdowns (assuming they actually happen?) I assume many would be cheering the drawdowns, but it doesn't seem that way

I know Mattis disagreed with Trump with more than just that (NATO is a big one) but I thought the drawdowns would be more welcome news


The question you have to ask is the following.

Do you think US interests are best served by leaving Russia and Iran alone on Syria?
Do you think the Afghans can contain the Taliban without the US? Do you think Russia and Iran will step in there?

US interests are best served by US presence in places where democracy and governments are currently not stable.

On a personal basis, I am sure that the loved ones of the deployed forces will be happy to have them home, but what good will it be if we have to send other's loved ones to clean up the mess later?

Remember what happened when we left Iraq?


Russia and Iran are welcome to spend blood and treasure in Syria. ISIS was substantially defeated—mission is over. Likewise Afghanistan, no further need there. Neither Syria nor Afghanistan are democracies nor are they ever likely to be stable democracies. If the Russians or Iranians want into Afghanistan, have at it, let them waste there blood and treasure where everyone since Alexander have done. I respect Mattis, but disagree on staying in losing wars.

GF
 
User avatar
WarRI1
Posts: 14195
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:07 am

WIederling wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
What so we can have the hell holes here, not the way it works if one has the brains to realize that. :banghead:


Taste your own medicine for a chance? I'd recommend that strongly. Maybe it brings some change in attitude.
Most of those hellholes exist thanks to US intervention ( military or subversive )



As I said, better there than here.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:28 am

WarRI1 wrote:
As I said, better there than here.

That's a piss poor outlook on the world. And a failure to rebut a completely false accusation against your country. If you get smoked in a debate with the weird one you are making a magnificent display of ineptness. And you just got smoked by WIederling.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:44 am

casinterest wrote:
Isn't it amazing how Trump's lack of respect for the opinions of those working for him keeps losing more and more of his "best people"

It seems you have to be a lying,racist, narcissist, with a penchant for misogyny, fraud, and cowardice to be a successful Trump administration official.


It’s more complicated than that IMHO. I think it’s the “inner workings” of Bolton-Pompeo duet. They want to be in full control of the foreign policy. Bolton even convinced Trump to cancel Putin meeting over Ukraine thing. Not sure what they wanted to I achieve and if they achieved anything at all - unlikely though.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:58 am

Jouhou wrote:
There seems to be a Putin-Erdogan-Trump link that we will know more about as details of our own Russia investigation come out. I do actually have a fairly good idea of how Erdogan and Putin became aligned despite previously being adversaries. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fethullah_Gülen stepped on the toes of both leaders during his anti-corruption campaign.


I don’t think there is any link like Putin-Trump-Erdogan. Turkey is in NATO at present rather formally. Erdogan was against Putin until the coup (against which the West did not mind obviously). But - after the coup attempt Erdogan’s stand change drastically. I guess if it really were Russian intelligence that warned him and helped him, it’s been very easy for Russians to pull him to his side. Bout Trump - I don’t see where he fits into this picture.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:09 am

salttee wrote:
Turkey and Russia have a long and hostile history together.


This is really the case across the whole Europe. Throughout its 1000 year old history, it looks like everyone has fought against everyone else.

salttee wrote:
Erdogan would love to stick it to the US and the west but he has a major problem where it comes to playing a Russia card to achieve that. Russia has always coveted the Bosporus and Turkey is within striking distance for the Russian Army. The distaste each country has for the other is palpable. That's why Turkey has been the southeastern linchpin of NATO for the last 70 years. Yet the scenario of a bond between Russia and Turkey is so unsettling that it can't be ignored. Erdogan is making very public moves toward Russia with the S-400 deal etc, and that keeps everyone off balance. Erdogan is not to be fucked with; he may be crazy enough to cast Turkey's fate into the hands of Putin's good will. Not likely, but still..............


On the other hand - Erdogan got a taste of what’s it like sticking to the US. Many US allies did. So after the coup he may perhaps have more grounds to trust Putin than the West.

salttee wrote:
Then there is the other option for Erdogan, going full on Islamic Fundamentalist, but that too has its dangers. He could easily lose control of that situation.


You can lose control over the situation very fast, playing with those dudes. Early on, it seems to be easy to achieve some of your goals with those people. But later, before you know it, they become a major force resource and just stand you, until they can get rid of you. This is not unlike any extremists and nationalists though. Western Ukrainian neo-nazis are an example - first Yanukovich played with them, until they kicked him out. Now current oligarchs thought they took advantage of them on Maidan, until they later discovered that now they can’t get rid of them, and have to account for them. And now Kiev juntists have to accept their rules, and “employ” them.
 
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Jouhou
Posts: 2541
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:45 am

anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
There seems to be a Putin-Erdogan-Trump link that we will know more about as details of our own Russia investigation come out. I do actually have a fairly good idea of how Erdogan and Putin became aligned despite previously being adversaries. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fethullah_Gülen stepped on the toes of both leaders during his anti-corruption campaign.


I don’t think there is any link like Putin-Trump-Erdogan. Turkey is in NATO at present rather formally. Erdogan was against Putin until the coup (against which the West did not mind obviously). But - after the coup attempt Erdogan’s stand change drastically. I guess if it really were Russian intelligence that warned him and helped him, it’s been very easy for Russians to pull him to his side. Bout Trump - I don’t see where he fits into this picture.



Turkey IS in NATO. That provides even more incentive for Russia to meddle, that's not a very good excuse.

Also I don't know how you can explain how that "benefits" the west, at all.

I find it strange that Turkish officials who knew Turkey was going to undergo a massive "anti-terrorism" push before the coup, who knew there was increased alignment with Russia, also knew about what Russia was doing in our elections.

I can't figure out exactly what went on with the coup attempt, but I don't buy the "false flag" theory either.

If there was a staged "false flag" coup attempt in the works, what we actually saw didn't seem to be that.

I do know the official Turkish explanation of who was responsible seems like complete horse shit to anyone who isn't being spoon fed Turkish propaganda. There IS something they are covering up because they most certainly are covering up the actual motives of the coup attempt.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:12 am

Jouhou wrote:
Turkey IS in NATO. That provides even more incentive for Russia to meddle, that's not a very good excuse.
Also I don't know how you can explain how that "benefits" the west, at all.


Turkey didn’t exit NATO, but together with that its help and involvement is next to non-existent lately. Erdogan doesn’t consider NATO’s positions and supposedly allies’ opinion at all lately. And does what he deems necessary, even if this is against NATO and USA interests. Value to the West - just as dealing with, say China or Philippines - somewhere it’s positive, somewhere it’s negative.

Jouhou wrote:
I find it strange that Turkish officials who knew Turkey was going to undergo a massive "anti-terrorism" push before the coup, who knew there was increased alignment with Russia, also knew about what Russia was doing in our elections.

I can't figure out exactly what went on with the coup attempt, but I don't buy the "false flag" theory either.

Middle Easten politics is extremely complex matter. I personally prefer not to get into inner workings of how decisions are being made there. You need a Ph.D. Degree specializing in Middle Eastern history and politics in order to make sense out of something there. This is not my specialty.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:18 am

Jouhou wrote:
I find it strange that Turkish officials who knew Turkey was going to undergo a massive "anti-terrorism" push before the coup, who knew there was increased alignment with Russia, also knew about what Russia was doing in our elections.


I don’t, for a couple of reasons.
One. Though I understand your emotions and U.S. media positions - foreign political elites need to see rather bullet proof facts, presentations, significant court cases in order to influence their stand and put some of their other interests on the back burner over this election thing. And all there is now is “proof that there is a proof”, “some reports”, “classified proof”, etc. And no particular court cases. Even for closest allies this is not enough reason to give up even small trade interests with Russia.

Two - generally, politicians are insertions to the problems even of closest allies until these problems affected them as well badly. Such as an aggressive and visible foreign meddling into their affairs.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:24 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Russia and Iran are welcome to spend blood and treasure in Syria. ISIS was substantially defeated—mission is over. Likewise Afghanistan, no further need there. Neither Syria nor Afghanistan are democracies nor are they ever likely to be stable democracies. If the Russians or Iranians want into Afghanistan, have at it, let them waste there blood and treasure where everyone since Alexander have done. I respect Mattis, but disagree on staying in losing wars.

GF


Well - they aren’t getting into Afghanistan for sure. And in Syria, they did it with little expenses and really few casualties. U.S. did suffer losses in the Middle East - there has to be time to recognize and acknowledge this, cut the losses, and start looking for the opportunities to come back, if this is still in the U.S. interests. And not blow trillions into sands like in Iraq and Afghanistan. If you have no chance to gain influence and are losing - well, get out. Hard, but right decision in my view.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:36 am

Image
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:38 am

President Trump is keeping his campaign promises and is defying the swamp as he goes and of course the swamp goes crazy. God bless President Trump #MAGA.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:42 am

aviationaware wrote:
President Trump is keeping his campaign promises and is defying the swamp as he goes and of course the swamp goes crazy. God bless President Trump #MAGA.


I am not under such impression. President Trump is trying hard, but now it’s more like the swamp is sucking him in.
 
KICT
Posts: 815
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:30 am

aviationaware wrote:
President Trump is keeping his campaign promises and is defying the swamp as he goes and of course the swamp goes crazy. God bless President Trump #MAGA.

You people are brain dead.
Jim "Mag Dog" Mattis is the swamp now?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14686
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:18 am

KICT wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
President Trump is keeping his campaign promises and is defying the swamp as he goes and of course the swamp goes crazy. God bless President Trump #MAGA.

You people are brain dead.
Jim "Mag Dog" Mattis is the swamp now?


As a supporter of Iranian hardliners his only interest is widening the divide. Pretty much everything checkable he ever wrote is made up on top of it.

Best regards
Thomas
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10417
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:30 am

wingman wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Most of those hellholes exist thanks to US intervention ( military or subversive )

But in the end it all comes back to your grandparents and their friends gassing 6M Jews doesn't it? You sound just like them too..you simply traded in the Scary Jew bogeyman for the USA to help yourself "understand" the root cause of all evil.


Let the Germans pay for the mission then. They still owe the US billions from 2 World Wars and the Cold War.
 
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Jouhou
Posts: 2541
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:43 am

anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
I find it strange that Turkish officials who knew Turkey was going to undergo a massive "anti-terrorism" push before the coup, who knew there was increased alignment with Russia, also knew about what Russia was doing in our elections.


I don’t, for a couple of reasons.
One. Though I understand your emotions and U.S. media positions - foreign political elites need to see rather bullet proof facts, presentations, significant court cases in order to influence their stand and put some of their other interests on the back burner over this election thing. And all there is now is “proof that there is a proof”, “some reports”, “classified proof”, etc. And no particular court cases. Even for closest allies this is not enough reason to give up even small trade interests with Russia.

Two - generally, politicians are insertions to the problems even of closest allies until these problems affected them as well badly. Such as an aggressive and visible foreign meddling into their affairs.


What? I'm not going by "media" reports, I'm going off what Turks were saying during the coup. There were people who knew things, who have gone silent post-coup. I also don't consider Turkish politics "middle-eastern", they are their own beast. And I'm familiar enough to know there's a ton of red flags that have gone up, even knowing the Turkish affinity for conspiracy theories there actually seemed to be a real conspiracy that actually transpired. It's not the conspiracy Turkey if officially peddling though.

It also seems Kemalism is dead now.

My point also was how is it the same Turks who predicted the direction Turkey was headed in also tipped me off Russia was about to start going all-in on our (US) elections? That Putin's purpose with Trump was to turn us isolationist so Russia could fill the void of power left behind?
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 12667
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:13 am

anrec80 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Russia and Iran are welcome to spend blood and treasure in Syria. ISIS was substantially defeated—mission is over. Likewise Afghanistan, no further need there. Neither Syria nor Afghanistan are democracies nor are they ever likely to be stable democracies. If the Russians or Iranians want into Afghanistan, have at it, let them waste there blood and treasure where everyone since Alexander have done. I respect Mattis, but disagree on staying in losing wars.

GF


Well - they aren’t getting into Afghanistan for sure. And in Syria, they did it with little expenses and really few casualties. U.S. did suffer losses in the Middle East - there has to be time to recognize and acknowledge this, cut the losses, and start looking for the opportunities to come back, if this is still in the U.S. interests. And not blow trillions into sands like in Iraq and Afghanistan. If you have no chance to gain influence and are losing - well, get out. Hard, but right decision in my view.


Very few casualties, perhaps among Russian ranks, but not under the civilian population. You are perfectly advocating the Putin regime's view again.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 20189
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:50 am

anrec80 wrote:
Well - they aren’t getting into Afghanistan for sure.


Not after they had their ass handed to them on a plate last time.

anrec80 wrote:
And in Syria, they did it with little expenses and really few casualties.


Yeah, who cares about thousands upon thousands of dead women and kids?
 
910A
Posts: 1930
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:11 am

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:53 pm

General Mattis is out as of the 31st. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... b42df73308

President Trump, who aides said has been seething about news coverage of Defense Secretary Jim Mattis’s scathing resignation letter, abruptly announced Sunday that he was removing Mattis two months before his planned departure and installing Patrick Shanahan as acting defense secretary.
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 8715
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:57 pm

aviationaware wrote:
President Trump is keeping his campaign promises and is defying the swamp as he goes and of course the swamp goes crazy. God bless President Trump #MAGA.

Interesting. He appointed Mattis to the position. How is that draining the swamp?
 
910A
Posts: 1930
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:11 am

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:04 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
President Trump is keeping his campaign promises and is defying the swamp as he goes and of course the swamp goes crazy. God bless President Trump #MAGA.

Interesting. He appointed Mattis to the position. How is that draining the swamp?


Wondering the same thing, but then again the President keeps changing the meaning of swamp creatures, which unsurprising his base doesn't have a clue what he means by draining the swamp since the meaning changes from month to month.

The motto no longer refers to Trump’s promises of ethics and lobbying reforms — many of which have dropped by the wayside or been watered down — or to vows about stopping members of his administration from profiting from their service.
In recent months, Trump has rebranded the “swamp” to mean almost anything he objects to: reporters, opponents of his immigration plan, free traders, phonies, bureaucrats, politicians who vote against tax cuts.


https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na- ... story.html
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: US SecDef Mattis to resign in february.

Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:11 pm

scbriml wrote:
Yeah, who cares about thousands upon thousands of dead women and kids?


You are right - all sorts of “Western coalitions” never did. What’s the death toll in Iraq following invasion? And - in Syria, things a like hospitals are also specialty of yet another “coalition”:

https://orient-news.net/en/news_show/15 ... was-struck

At fault for that somehow was ISIS though. Another kind of favorite targets is weddings:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haska_M ... _airstrike

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