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Pi7472000
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Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:59 am

With climate change rapidly increasing and devstating the Earth should people in North America be limited to one car? Cars are a huge problem and have contributed to climate change. People do not need multiple cars and they burn fuel and even battery powered cars use resources for parts. If someone needs a truck they should have to prove it is necessary for work. When will North Americans curtail their car obssession to help save the Earth?
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:03 am

Honestly, if cities would build more housing near transit at an affordable cost, many would willingly give up their cars in a heartbeat. I would.
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salttee
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:29 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
With climate change rapidly increasing and devstating the Earth should people in North America be limited to one car? Cars are a huge problem and have contributed to climate change. People do not need multiple cars and they burn fuel and even battery powered cars use resources for parts. If someone needs a truck they should have to prove it is necessary for work. When will North Americans curtail their car obssession to help save the Earth?
I don't see what the point would be. You can only drive one at a time. It would free up some parking spaces which would be helpful in the cities, but that is trivial.

I do agree with the concept of upping the taxes on vehicles based on their size and weight.
 
chimborazo
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:29 am

Two cars for one person is not really relevant in terms of pollution as you can only drive one at once. Of course there are production and disposal impacts too.
The biggest issue is the unnecessarily high fuel consumption of many of the vehicles... 10-15mpg is just ridiculous.
 
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T18
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:44 am

Jouhou wrote:
Honestly, if cities would build more housing near transit at an affordable cost, many would willingly give up their cars in a heartbeat. I would.


You can have my car when you pry the wheel and gear shift from my cold dead hands. (only half joking).

On topic, pretty sure you would do better on Greenhouse emissions to curtail our milk and beef intake.
“Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting.” ― Steve McQueen (Le Mans) 1971
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:05 am

Jouhou wrote:
Honestly, if cities would build more housing near transit at an affordable cost, many would willingly give up their cars in a heartbeat. I would.


But not everyone like the "city lifestyle", though. Hack, not all "millennials" are yuppies as-is.

And it's not just housing near transit, US desperately need MUCH better public transit system.

Pi7472000 wrote:
With climate change rapidly increasing and devstating the Earth should people in North America be limited to one car? Cars are a huge problem and have contributed to climate change. People do not need multiple cars and they burn fuel and even battery powered cars use resources for parts. If someone needs a truck they should have to prove it is necessary for work. When will North Americans curtail their car obssession to help save the Earth?


Not sure how does "limiting things to one car/person" works anyway. The problem in US is that the average number of cars own by a family is definitely higher than rest of the world. Most Europeans/Chinese/etc. has one car for the whole family, and at max, a work vehicle and a weekend vehicle. Average US family is more "one car per person".

And while battery power car simply shift the greenhouse effect somewhere else (i.e. factory and disposal, along with power plants that one use to charge the vehicle), overall it is certainly generate a LOT less pollution due to economy of scale, i.e. it's a lot easier to build something that's more environmental friendly at a larger scale than it's to miniaturized it, make it lightweight and efficient enough to fit into a car, etc. (I'm thinking along the line of solar car, hydrogen car, etc.)

salttee wrote:
I do agree with the concept of upping the taxes on vehicles based on their size and weight.


This I can certainly agree. Not going to happen, though.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:11 am

Getting Asia to ban 2 stroke engines would do a whole lot more for global warming than 1 car per person in North America.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:12 am

Getting Asia to ban 2 stroke engines would do a whole lot more for global warming than 1 car per person in North America.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
DGVT
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:31 am

What mainly causes emissions is the usage of a car and not how many I own. I can have 5 cars, but I can only drive one at a time. Of course the reduced demand causes less cars to be produced and there would be les emissions from production, by I think emissions during usage are the main point.

If you want to reduce emissions simply tax fuel. This way I have an incentive to buy an efficient car and drive less.

By upping the tax on heavy/big cars you only disincentivize the purchase of heavy/big cars. You do not disincentivize the usage, meaning there is no incentive for me to actually reduce my emissions. This is less effective.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:28 am

There are a few places where the number of personal vehicles are strictly limited, Singapore and Bermuda being the best known examples. They are special cases though due to their small size and numbers of persons who could afford multiple cars if no regulations. That won't happen in the North American market due to cultural and political factors.

There are ways to limit the number of vehicles in urban areas, some already in use in NA cities. 'Congestion charges' (tax) are imposed to limit the numbers of vehicles operating in certain city areas (like London and on car services/taxis in NYC to go into effect on Jan. 1). No or very limited free street parking in non-residential areas and overall reductions in numbers of street parking sites. High taxes and fees for public parking lots and garages. Reductions in mandates for parking places in commercial and residential buildings. Car pooling and various incentives to encourage mass transit use. Bans on older and high pollution vehicles. Limits on times when commercial vehicles can be operated. In some places, even beyond urban areas, there are high rates of 'car taxes' to discourage purchases for multiple cars and demand variable road tolls.
 
WIederling
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:29 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Getting Asia to ban 2 stroke engines would do a whole lot more for global warming than 1 car per person in North America.


Dream on.
Fuel and thus CO2 per kg payload is microscopic in relation to the US situation.
Then, China is pressing strongly for electrics in that domain.
You may still be lamenting the potential loss of your fuel guzzling truck
when they are done with the conversion there.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:15 am

I am a liberal, so I believe that you should take responsibility for your own actions.

I do not believe restrictions from the government as such. I do believe we all have to take our own responsibility as it comes to climate change.

So this, TWA772LR, is something I think is a terrible way to go about your life (sorry TWA772LR):

TWA772LR wrote:
Getting Asia to ban 2 stroke engines would do a whole lot more for global warming than 1 car per person in North America.


So given this attitude to life, I do believe that we need to create conditions that Green is the better choice than dark black, without prohibiting the dark black option. So North Americans restricting to only one car is not the way to go. Putting excise duty on the dark black option to include external cost - healthcare, climate change measures, etc. - which are now paid by society at large, is the way to go. Then you have market forces which will nudge people towards the green option.

chimborazo wrote:
Two cars for one person is not really relevant in terms of pollution as you can only drive one at once. Of course there are production and disposal impacts too.
The biggest issue is the unnecessarily high fuel consumption of many of the vehicles... 10-15mpg is just ridiculous.


10mpg (or 1 litter for 4,25km for the rest of the world), is plain ridiculous. People continue to buy these if external cost aren't put into the equation.

I do recognize that America has a problem to convert to the new reality. American cities are made for cars, spacious and lacking of mass transport. American cities are laid out like diarrhea of homes. I was shocked to see that Los Angelas has the same size as The Netherlands for instance. Building more compact cities, thus building more in inner cities is a good way to go to build up a network of mass transportation. The car ownership in New York City or more specific Manhattan is very very low. People don't need one in their lives, so why put up the money to own one? Unless you are a car enthusiast, it is just an expensive piece of ornament.

So I would say no to restricting car ownership, yes to have a truly fair price for polluting, including severely restricting car usage in inner cities with congestion charges (like in London and Singapore) or even banning certain cars in old inner cities like is done in Germany and The Netherlands for instance. I would be in favor of banning fossil fuel powered vehicles in inner cities altogether. You get a nicer atmosphere, clean up the air in inner cities in their relative small streets not made for cars. Make inner cities a paradise for walking and bike riding. Both have even a positive effect on one's mental health.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:34 am

No, just change the culture of 'needing' the typical oversized, gas guzzling tanks the average American tends to purchase. You can do this in many ways.

Oh, and improve your public transport.
 
Redd
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:44 am

salttee wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
With climate change rapidly increasing and devstating the Earth should people in North America be limited to one car? Cars are a huge problem and have contributed to climate change. People do not need multiple cars and they burn fuel and even battery powered cars use resources for parts. If someone needs a truck they should have to prove it is necessary for work. When will North Americans curtail their car obssession to help save the Earth?
I don't see what the point would be. You can only drive one at a time. It would free up some parking spaces which would be helpful in the cities, but that is trivial.

I do agree with the concept of upping the taxes on vehicles based on their size and weight.


:checkmark:


Many people collect cars and to them it's a hobby/passion, it wouldn't be fair or make sense in anyway to limit people to one car.... Like you mentioned, one driver can only drive one car at a time, so the amount of cars someone has is a moot point. Size, weight & emissions determining taxes on said car are much more important.

Agriculture is by far the largest contributor to CO2 and global warming and Livestock Agriculture being the biggest culprit. Not to mention the largest reason for the destruction of virgin rain-forests is to create grazing land, 2nd''ed only by oil exploration. So all we have to do is accelerate the switch to electric cars and as a consequence greatly reduce dependency on fossil fuels, stop eating meat and presto! 50% +++ reduction on greenhouse gasses.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:44 pm

Instead of limiting the number of cars, incentives should be given to move towards more fuel efficient, clean cars (hybrids and plug-ins). But until those cars become more economical and efficient, the best path forward is better public transit options (rail, expanded bus services, etc). I like certain places that allow carpool lanes (you have more than 2 people, you get an exclusive lane) so that's another way to encourage less cars on the road.

Someone will no doubt argue that by plugging in you are contributing more greenhouse gas emissions, but it all depends on where the power grid gets its energy from. A grid powered by natural gas, nuclear, or hydroelectric power will likely be many times cleaner than one powered by coal or oil.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:26 pm

They can only drive one car at a time, what difference does it make if they own 2?
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:30 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I am a liberal, so I believe that you should take responsibility for your own actions.

I do not believe restrictions from the government as such. I do believe we all have to take our own responsibility as it comes to climate change.

So this, TWA772LR, is something I think is a terrible way to go about your life (sorry TWA772LR):

TWA772LR wrote:
Getting Asia to ban 2 stroke engines would do a whole lot more for global warming than 1 car per person in North America.


So given this attitude to life, I do believe that we need to create conditions that Green is the better choice than dark black, without prohibiting the dark black option. So North Americans restricting to only one car is not the way to go. Putting excise duty on the dark black option to include external cost - healthcare, climate change measures, etc. - which are now paid by society at large, is the way to go. Then you have market forces which will nudge people towards the green option.

chimborazo wrote:
Two cars for one person is not really relevant in terms of pollution as you can only drive one at once. Of course there are production and disposal impacts too.
The biggest issue is the unnecessarily high fuel consumption of many of the vehicles... 10-15mpg is just ridiculous.


10mpg (or 1 litter for 4,25km for the rest of the world), is plain ridiculous. People continue to buy these if external cost aren't put into the equation.

I do recognize that America has a problem to convert to the new reality. American cities are made for cars, spacious and lacking of mass transport. American cities are laid out like diarrhea of homes. I was shocked to see that Los Angelas has the same size as The Netherlands for instance. Building more compact cities, thus building more in inner cities is a good way to go to build up a network of mass transportation. The car ownership in New York City or more specific Manhattan is very very low. People don't need one in their lives, so why put up the money to own one? Unless you are a car enthusiast, it is just an expensive piece of ornament.

So I would say no to restricting car ownership, yes to have a truly fair price for polluting, including severely restricting car usage in inner cities with congestion charges (like in London and Singapore) or even banning certain cars in old inner cities like is done in Germany and The Netherlands for instance. I would be in favor of banning fossil fuel powered vehicles in inner cities altogether. You get a nicer atmosphere, clean up the air in inner cities in their relative small streets not made for cars. Make inner cities a paradise for walking and bike riding. Both have even a positive effect on one's mental health.
WIederling wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Getting Asia to ban 2 stroke engines would do a whole lot more for global warming than 1 car per person in North America.


Dream on.
Fuel and thus CO2 per kg payload is microscopic in relation to the US situation.
Then, China is pressing strongly for electrics in that domain.
You may still be lamenting the potential loss of your fuel guzzling truck
when they are done with the conversion there.

Contrary to popular belief, the US has done a lot for renewable energy despite who is currently in office, and we do have laws, tax breaks, and a dedicated federal agency for all of this which is more than a lot of countries can say. I say Asia because individuals are still using 2 stroke motors which obviously release twice as much emissions as a 4 stroke. But the big issue is still cause by China. No other country has had more food recalls due to industrial contamination (not including biological contamination) than China and the amount of pollutants they spew is extremely evident due to the air quality of Beijing. They may be pushing for electronics but it isnt fast enough. Westerners are moving toward fuel efficiency because of the last spike in gas prices sparked a move toward more efficient vehicles including high gas mileage, hybrids, and all electric.

And no, I dont have, need, nor want a big truck. Im fine with my Accord. :)
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:20 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I am a liberal, so I believe that you should take responsibility for your own actions.

I do not believe restrictions from the government as such. I do believe we all have to take our own responsibility as it comes to climate change.

So this, TWA772LR, is something I think is a terrible way to go about your life (sorry TWA772LR):

TWA772LR wrote:
Getting Asia to ban 2 stroke engines would do a whole lot more for global warming than 1 car per person in North America.


So given this attitude to life, I do believe that we need to create conditions that Green is the better choice than dark black, without prohibiting the dark black option. So North Americans restricting to only one car is not the way to go. Putting excise duty on the dark black option to include external cost - healthcare, climate change measures, etc. - which are now paid by society at large, is the way to go. Then you have market forces which will nudge people towards the green option.

chimborazo wrote:
Two cars for one person is not really relevant in terms of pollution as you can only drive one at once. Of course there are production and disposal impacts too.
The biggest issue is the unnecessarily high fuel consumption of many of the vehicles... 10-15mpg is just ridiculous.


10mpg (or 1 litter for 4,25km for the rest of the world), is plain ridiculous. People continue to buy these if external cost aren't put into the equation.

I do recognize that America has a problem to convert to the new reality. American cities are made for cars, spacious and lacking of mass transport. American cities are laid out like diarrhea of homes. I was shocked to see that Los Angelas has the same size as The Netherlands for instance. Building more compact cities, thus building more in inner cities is a good way to go to build up a network of mass transportation. The car ownership in New York City or more specific Manhattan is very very low. People don't need one in their lives, so why put up the money to own one? Unless you are a car enthusiast, it is just an expensive piece of ornament.

So I would say no to restricting car ownership, yes to have a truly fair price for polluting, including severely restricting car usage in inner cities with congestion charges (like in London and Singapore) or even banning certain cars in old inner cities like is done in Germany and The Netherlands for instance. I would be in favor of banning fossil fuel powered vehicles in inner cities altogether. You get a nicer atmosphere, clean up the air in inner cities in their relative small streets not made for cars. Make inner cities a paradise for walking and bike riding. Both have even a positive effect on one's mental health.
WIederling wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Getting Asia to ban 2 stroke engines would do a whole lot more for global warming than 1 car per person in North America.


Dream on.
Fuel and thus CO2 per kg payload is microscopic in relation to the US situation.
Then, China is pressing strongly for electrics in that domain.
You may still be lamenting the potential loss of your fuel guzzling truck
when they are done with the conversion there.

Contrary to popular belief, the US has done a lot for renewable energy despite who is currently in office, and we do have laws, tax breaks, and a dedicated federal agency for all of this which is more than a lot of countries can say. I say Asia because individuals are still using 2 stroke motors which obviously release twice as much emissions as a 4 stroke. But the big issue is still cause by China. No other country has had more food recalls due to industrial contamination (not including biological contamination) than China and the amount of pollutants they spew is extremely evident due to the air quality of Beijing. They may be pushing for electronics but it isnt fast enough. Westerners are moving toward fuel efficiency because of the last spike in gas prices sparked a move toward more efficient vehicles including high gas mileage, hybrids, and all electric.

And no, I dont have, need, nor want a big truck. Im fine with my Accord. :)


And still you - Americans - use way too much fossil fuels and that is the problem. 2 strokes is a problem, but quite an easy problem to solve, certainly in China.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:39 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
With climate change rapidly increasing and devstating the Earth should people in North America be limited to one car? Cars are a huge problem and have contributed to climate change. People do not need multiple cars and they burn fuel and even battery powered cars use resources for parts. If someone needs a truck they should have to prove it is necessary for work. When will North Americans curtail their car obssession to help save the Earth?


There's lots to unpack here, but one inescapable observation: this isn't about climate, this is about control. If your concern was the risk of climate change, then a zero-emission automobile would be a sufficient remedy. Apparently that isn't enough for you. Some people won't be happy until they can deeply micromanage the private property and daily behaviors of other people.

Dutchy wrote:
I do recognize that America has a problem to convert to the new reality. American cities are made for cars, spacious and lacking of mass transport. American cities are laid out like diarrhea of homes. I was shocked to see that Los Angelas has the same size as The Netherlands for instance. Building more compact cities, thus building more in inner cities is a good way to go to build up a network of mass transportation. The car ownership in New York City or more specific Manhattan is very very low. People don't need one in their lives, so why put up the money to own one? Unless you are a car enthusiast, it is just an expensive piece of ornament.


Los Angeles also produces $200 billion dollars more GDP than the Netherlands. The U.S. optimizes for productivity and not cost control.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:52 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Los Angeles also produces $200 billion dollars more GDP than the Netherlands. The U.S. optimizes for productivity and not cost control.


About $100bn in 2015 (742 versus 866, 2015 numbers). The rest of your statement is just rubbish.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:43 pm

Dutchy wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
Los Angeles also produces $200 billion dollars more GDP than the Netherlands. The U.S. optimizes for productivity and not cost control.


About $100bn in 2015 (742 versus 866, 2015 numbers). The rest of your statement is just rubbish.


Are you so driven to find a counter-argument that you cannot acknowledge the U.S. and EU public are motivated by different criteria that produce different outcomes?
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:51 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
Los Angeles also produces $200 billion dollars more GDP than the Netherlands. The U.S. optimizes for productivity and not cost control.


About $100bn in 2015 (742 versus 866, 2015 numbers). The rest of your statement is just rubbish.


Are you so driven to find a counter-argument that you cannot acknowledge the U.S. and EU public are motivated by different criteria that produce different outcomes?


You mean seeing people as producing products and seeing people as people?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:08 pm

Americans will adopt the one car policy right after they adopt the one gun policy. :duck:
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:13 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
They can only drive one car at a time, what difference does it make if they own 2?


People that try to take things from others never usually think the whole matter through.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:17 pm

Dutchy wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

About $100bn in 2015 (742 versus 866, 2015 numbers). The rest of your statement is just rubbish.


Are you so driven to find a counter-argument that you cannot acknowledge the U.S. and EU public are motivated by different criteria that produce different outcomes?


You mean seeing people as producing products and seeing people as people?


Uh huh. There are Europeans in this thread who praise China's authoritarian government and criticize Americans for permitting too much individual freedom. So yeah, you sure "see people as people."

This thread exemplifies why Americans are deeply skeptical of climate agreements. They immediately veer from a specific call-to-action into broad cultural arguments with foreigners largely saying "you need to live like us." No other remedies will suffice except for a sharp change in daily behaviors. So nah. We're good.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:20 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
They can only drive one car at a time, what difference does it make if they own 2?


People that try to take things from others never usually think the whole matter through.


By burning fossil fuels you take a hell of a lot more than just a car. They might be a continent away though. Not taking in the external cost into the equation is just plain selfish.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
They can only drive one car at a time, what difference does it make if they own 2?


People that try to take things from others never usually think the whole matter through.


By burning fossil fuels you take a hell of a lot more than just a car. They might be a continent away though. Not taking in the external cost into the equation is just plain selfish.


driving a car is selfish?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:27 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Uh huh. There are Europeans in this thread who praise China's authoritarian government and criticize Americans for permitting too much individual freedom. So yeah, you sure "see people as people."

This thread exemplifies why Americans are deeply skeptical of climate agreements. They immediately veer from a specific call-to-action into broad cultural arguments with foreigners largely saying "you need to live like us." No other remedies will suffice except for a sharp change in daily behaviors. So nah. We're good.


No, America pollutes more per capita and in absolute numbers then the world can afford. So yes, change of behavior is needed. Not just of Americans, but also for Europeans, Chinese and any other nationality, but first of all whom pollutes the most and have polluted the most and there contributed the most to the mess we are in.

So unless you believe that Americans are very special and deserves special treatment, I would say own up to the problem America has heavily contributed to, as need Europeans and others.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:30 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

People that try to take things from others never usually think the whole matter through.


By burning fossil fuels you take a hell of a lot more than just a car. They might be a continent away though. Not taking in the external cost into the equation is just plain selfish.


driving a car is selfish?


Not, if you are willing to pay for all external cost caused by burning the fossil fuels. Then just go ahead and do it. If you expect others to pay for external cost caused by your behavior, then yes, that is selfish.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:32 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

By burning fossil fuels you take a hell of a lot more than just a car. They might be a continent away though. Not taking in the external cost into the equation is just plain selfish.


driving a car is selfish?


Not, if you are willing to pay for all external cost caused by burning the fossil fuels. Then just go ahead and do it. If you expect others to pay for external cost caused by your behavior, then yes, that is selfish.


What are you talking about?

Are you saying motoring is too cheap?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:40 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

driving a car is selfish?


Not, if you are willing to pay for all external cost caused by burning the fossil fuels. Then just go ahead and do it. If you expect others to pay for external cost caused by your behavior, then yes, that is selfish.


What are you talking about?

Are you saying motoring is too cheap?


Yes, you've got it my friend, burning fossil fuels is too cheap because it doesn't factoring in all the cost: damage to health of others, damage to the enviourment and cost for climate change. Pulluting is free at the moment and it should not be.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:52 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Not, if you are willing to pay for all external cost caused by burning the fossil fuels. Then just go ahead and do it. If you expect others to pay for external cost caused by your behavior, then yes, that is selfish.


What are you talking about?

Are you saying motoring is too cheap?


Yes, you've got it my friend, burning fossil fuels is too cheap because it doesn't factoring in all the cost: damage to health of others, damage to the enviourment and cost for climate change. Pulluting is free at the moment and it should not be.


It is not cheap in the UK. Around 6 quid a gallon.

Not sure making motoring an elitist form of travel would be accepted by voters.

Do you think air travel is too cheap as well?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:01 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

What are you talking about?

Are you saying motoring is too cheap?


Yes, you've got it my friend, burning fossil fuels is too cheap because it doesn't factoring in all the cost: damage to health of others, damage to the enviourment and cost for climate change. Pulluting is free at the moment and it should not be.


It is not cheap in the UK. Around 6 quid a gallon.

Not sure making motoring an elitist form of travel would be accepted by voters.

Do you think air travel is too cheap as well?


Yes, air travel is way too cheap. Since 6pounds per gallon doesn't factor in all external cost, it is too cheap as well. Why do you expect others to pay for your behavior?

But you are missing the bigger picture. You are already paying for all the external cost not included in fossil fuels. You do this through your taxes. So paying to true cost of fossil fuel burning will mean that other taxes can be lower. So no additional cost, just a shift from general taxes to let the polluters pay for their own behavior.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:08 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Yes, you've got it my friend, burning fossil fuels is too cheap because it doesn't factoring in all the cost: damage to health of others, damage to the enviourment and cost for climate change. Pulluting is free at the moment and it should not be.


It is not cheap in the UK. Around 6 quid a gallon.

Not sure making motoring an elitist form of travel would be accepted by voters.

Do you think air travel is too cheap as well?


Yes, air travel is way too cheap. Since 6pounds per gallon doesn't factor in all external cost, it is too cheap as well. Why do you expect others to pay for your behavior?

But you are missing the bigger picture. You are already paying for all the external cost not included in fossil fuels. You do this through your taxes. So paying to true cost of fossil fuel burning will mean that other taxes can be lower. So no additional cost, just a shift from general taxes to let the polluters pay for their own behavior.


For someone claiming to be a liberal, it is an odd attitude to suggest people are priced out of doing something on the basis it is polluting.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:16 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

It is not cheap in the UK. Around 6 quid a gallon.

Not sure making motoring an elitist form of travel would be accepted by voters.

Do you think air travel is too cheap as well?


Yes, air travel is way too cheap. Since 6pounds per gallon doesn't factor in all external cost, it is too cheap as well. Why do you expect others to pay for your behavior?

But you are missing the bigger picture. You are already paying for all the external cost not included in fossil fuels. You do this through your taxes. So paying to true cost of fossil fuel burning will mean that other taxes can be lower. So no additional cost, just a shift from general taxes to let the polluters pay for their own behavior.


For someone claiming to be a liberal, it is an odd attitude to suggest people are priced out of doing something on the basis it is polluting.


Why? As a liberal, I believe you can do whatever you want, unless it is harming others. So your freedom is only limited by the freedom of others. By polluting and not paying 100% of the cost, you take a bit of freedom away from others whom are paying that bill. Liberalism isn't just doing anything you want, liberalism is taking responsibility for one's actions.

So tell me why do you think it is fair that others should pay for your pollution?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Berevoff
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:30 pm

I think we need to cap the number of airplanes each airline has based on population. The fares will thus increase and less people will be able to fly and that will save way more gas and emissions. People flying 5000 miles for a cheap vacation is terrible.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1004
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:31 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Yes, air travel is way too cheap. Since 6pounds per gallon doesn't factor in all external cost, it is too cheap as well. Why do you expect others to pay for your behavior?

But you are missing the bigger picture. You are already paying for all the external cost not included in fossil fuels. You do this through your taxes. So paying to true cost of fossil fuel burning will mean that other taxes can be lower. So no additional cost, just a shift from general taxes to let the polluters pay for their own behavior.


For someone claiming to be a liberal, it is an odd attitude to suggest people are priced out of doing something on the basis it is polluting.


Why? As a liberal, I believe you can do whatever you want, unless it is harming others. So your freedom is only limited by the freedom of others. By polluting and not paying 100% of the cost, you take a bit of freedom away from others whom are paying that bill. Liberalism isn't just doing anything you want, liberalism is taking responsibility for one's actions.

So tell me why do you think it is fair that others should pay for your pollution?


It is all part of life unfortunately.

We eat well, whilst others in the world starve.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:39 pm

Berevoff wrote:
I think we need to cap the number of airplanes each airline has based on population. The fares will thus increase and less people will be able to fly and that will save way more gas and emissions. People flying 5000 miles for a cheap vacation is terrible.


Pay a fair price for polluting. That is what CO2 pricing is all about, no need to cap the number of planes, it will happen automatically.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:40 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

For someone claiming to be a liberal, it is an odd attitude to suggest people are priced out of doing something on the basis it is polluting.


Why? As a liberal, I believe you can do whatever you want, unless it is harming others. So your freedom is only limited by the freedom of others. By polluting and not paying 100% of the cost, you take a bit of freedom away from others whom are paying that bill. Liberalism isn't just doing anything you want, liberalism is taking responsibility for one's actions.

So tell me why do you think it is fair that others should pay for your pollution?


It is all part of life unfortunately.

We eat well, whilst others in the world starve.


And that is your major argument not to change anything? The world is unfair and thus leave it at that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1004
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Why? As a liberal, I believe you can do whatever you want, unless it is harming others. So your freedom is only limited by the freedom of others. By polluting and not paying 100% of the cost, you take a bit of freedom away from others whom are paying that bill. Liberalism isn't just doing anything you want, liberalism is taking responsibility for one's actions.

So tell me why do you think it is fair that others should pay for your pollution?


It is all part of life unfortunately.

We eat well, whilst others in the world starve.


And that is your major argument not to change anything? The world is unfair and thus leave it at that.


Change needs to come from industrial legislation. All new cars need to do 100mpg in next 5-10 years, electric card by 2030 need to have rapid charge and 400 mile range.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:02 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

It is all part of life unfortunately.

We eat well, whilst others in the world starve.


And that is your major argument not to change anything? The world is unfair and thus leave it at that.


Change needs to come from industrial legislation. All new cars need to do 100mpg in next 5-10 years, electric card by 2030 need to have rapid charge and 400 mile range.


So you suggest the government should pass legislation to limit the freedom of people, while I suggest you need to pay a fair price for polluting and therefore the market will come up with products which will be more efficient because that is what the market wants with high CO2 costs.

100MPG/50km/l is unattainable. There is only a certain amount of energy a liter of fossil fuel can give. Fossil fuel cars are at the end of their development, not much more can be done to make them more fuel efficient, so we should indeed say goodbye to them and move on to electric and boost our public transport system, so people have other options as well.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1004
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:09 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

And that is your major argument not to change anything? The world is unfair and thus leave it at that.


Change needs to come from industrial legislation. All new cars need to do 100mpg in next 5-10 years, electric card by 2030 need to have rapid charge and 400 mile range.


So you suggest the government should pass legislation to limit the freedom of people, while I suggest you need to pay a fair price for polluting and therefore the market will come up with products which will be more efficient because that is what the market wants with high CO2 costs.

100MPG/50km/l is unattainable. There is only a certain amount of energy a liter of fossil fuel can give. Fossil fuel cars are at the end of their development, not much more can be done to make them more fuel efficient, so we should indeed say goodbye to them and move on to electric and boost our public transport system, so people have other options as well.


Where have I said limit the freedom of people?
 
cpd
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:18 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Honestly, if cities would build more housing near transit at an affordable cost, many would willingly give up their cars in a heartbeat. I would.


But not everyone like the "city lifestyle", though. Hack, not all "millennials" are yuppies as-is.

And it's not just housing near transit, US desperately need MUCH better public transit system.

Pi7472000 wrote:
With climate change rapidly increasing and devstating the Earth should people in North America be limited to one car? Cars are a huge problem and have contributed to climate change. People do not need multiple cars and they burn fuel and even battery powered cars use resources for parts. If someone needs a truck they should have to prove it is necessary for work. When will North Americans curtail their car obssession to help save the Earth?


Not sure how does "limiting things to one car/person" works anyway. The problem in US is that the average number of cars own by a family is definitely higher than rest of the world. Most Europeans/Chinese/etc. has one car for the whole family, and at max, a work vehicle and a weekend vehicle. Average US family is more "one car per person".

And while battery power car simply shift the greenhouse effect somewhere else (i.e. factory and disposal, along with power plants that one use to charge the vehicle), overall it is certainly generate a LOT less pollution due to economy of scale, i.e. it's a lot easier to build something that's more environmental friendly at a larger scale than it's to miniaturized it, make it lightweight and efficient enough to fit into a car, etc. (I'm thinking along the line of solar car, hydrogen car, etc.)

salttee wrote:
I do agree with the concept of upping the taxes on vehicles based on their size and weight.


This I can certainly agree. Not going to happen, though.


However, not all ordinary people who don’t use cars all the time are yuppies or millennials!

Some people I know live about 20km away from their work and ride a bicycle to and from work every day. Some live even further away. Not all are office workers either. And none of them are those lefties that you will probably try to portray them as.

Car use in some cities (like mine) really must be reduced if possible. We can’t fit more cars on the road. Traffic jams are terrible. More alternative forms of transportation are needed badly.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:19 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Change needs to come from industrial legislation. All new cars need to do 100mpg in next 5-10 years, electric card by 2030 need to have rapid charge and 400 mile range.


So you suggest the government should pass legislation to limit the freedom of people, while I suggest you need to pay a fair price for polluting and therefore the market will come up with products which will be more efficient because that is what the market wants with high CO2 costs.

100MPG/50km/l is unattainable. There is only a certain amount of energy a liter of fossil fuel can give. Fossil fuel cars are at the end of their development, not much more can be done to make them more fuel efficient, so we should indeed say goodbye to them and move on to electric and boost our public transport system, so people have other options as well.


Where have I said limit the freedom of people?


You limit the freedom of people to buy a new car doing 50mpg 8-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1004
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

So you suggest the government should pass legislation to limit the freedom of people, while I suggest you need to pay a fair price for polluting and therefore the market will come up with products which will be more efficient because that is what the market wants with high CO2 costs.

100MPG/50km/l is unattainable. There is only a certain amount of energy a liter of fossil fuel can give. Fossil fuel cars are at the end of their development, not much more can be done to make them more fuel efficient, so we should indeed say goodbye to them and move on to electric and boost our public transport system, so people have other options as well.


Where have I said limit the freedom of people?


You limit the freedom of people to buy a new car doing 50mpg 8-)


The EU have been putting in emission requirements for years.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3488
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:36 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
The EU have been putting in emission requirements for years.


And when a company can't beat the emission requirements, they install special software. :duck:

cpd wrote:
However, not all ordinary people who don’t use cars all the time are yuppies or millennials!

Some people I know live about 20km away from their work and ride a bicycle to and from work every day. Some live even further away. Not all are office workers either. And none of them are those lefties that you will probably try to portray them as.

Car use in some cities (like mine) really must be reduced if possible. We can’t fit more cars on the road. Traffic jams are terrible. More alternative forms of transportation are needed badly.


I guess I should clarify my point - all I'm saying is that not even all millennials are your stereotypical yuppies that decide to live closer to work, use public transport, don't own a car, etc. (Just b/c, well, the media love to stereotype millennials as if they're really that much different than other generation). Doesn't mean that yuppies are the only one that live that way :white: .

Otherwise, I do agree about alternative forms of transportation. Often time I don't drive b/c I really want to, but rather, I don't really have much choice.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:43 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Where have I said limit the freedom of people?


You limit the freedom of people to buy a new car doing 50mpg 8-)


The EU have been putting in emission requirements for years.


So, what is your point?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Tugger
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:01 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
should people in North America be limited to one car

That is already the case, at least for the USA (I am not egotistical enough to think the US is the whole of NA).

There are roughly 330 million people in the USA and only 270 odd million registered vehicles (which includes work vehicles). :spin:

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
anrec80
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Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:06 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Honestly, if cities would build more housing near transit at an affordable cost, many would willingly give up their cars in a heartbeat. I would.


It’s not about cities really. It’s about transit itself, ability to get to workplaces using the transit, etc. Then - developers will build. Plus, an important factor is willingness of families to sacrifice space. Right now, too many family people still believe that a 2 bedroom apartment isn’t enough for them.
 
anrec80
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Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Should North Americans be limited to one car?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:07 pm

Tugger wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
should people in North America be limited to one car

That is already the case, at least for the USA (I am not egotistical enough to think the US is the whole of NA).

There are roughly 330 million people in the USA and only 270 odd million registered vehicles (which includes work vehicles). :spin:

Tugg


Yeah but out of these 330 million - how many people are actually licensed drivers?

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