steveinbc
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China ratchets up pressure on Canada over Huawei VP Arrest

Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:52 pm

China has now arrested three Canadian citizens since the arrest in Vancouver of Huawei's CFO at the start of the month.
Additionally, China has imposed travel visa restrictions WEF 1 January 2019 on any Canadian travelling to China by requiring all applicants to go in person to an embassy or consulate to be fingerprinted and interviewed prior to being issued a visa.
According to local news, travel agents and airlines have seen trip bookings to China plummet by 50% from normal rates over the month. Likely the only travellers will be the large Chinese community in Vancouver visiting their homeland. Tit for tat never works in my opinion. Will watch with interest what happens next.
The extradition of the Huawei executive will take many months. The USA has until end February to lay extradition charges and then the fun begins!!!
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Jouhou
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Re: China ratchets up pressure on Canada over Huawei VP Arrest

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:16 pm

China is usually a bit better researched with their retaliatory actions. I wonder why the hell they think this is a good angle to take with Canada.
 
tommy1808
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Re: China ratchets up pressure on Canada over Huawei VP Arrest

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:54 pm

Jouhou wrote:
to take with Canada.


Or any country ruled by law. If anything they just make it more likely that she will be extradited, as know judge wants to give the impression of cavin in...

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wingman
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Re: China ratchets up pressure on Canada over Huawei VP Arrest

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:07 pm

Canada should arrest 10 well-connected high profile Chinese living in Vancouver for stuff like taking pictures and driving violations. That would be hilarious.
 
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Flyingdevil737
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Re: China ratchets up pressure on Canada over Huawei VP Arrest

Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:27 pm

wingman wrote:
Canada should arrest 10 well-connected high profile Chinese living in Vancouver for stuff like taking pictures and driving violations. That would be hilarious.


I wish I could do that to my Chinese neighbors who seem to spend a lot and time standing around in my street and taking selfies on top of letter box....
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anrec80
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Re: China ratchets up pressure on Canada over Huawei VP Arrest

Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:17 pm

Jouhou wrote:
China is usually a bit better researched with their retaliatory actions. I wonder why the hell they think this is a good angle to take with Canada.


Canada should have thought before just doing it and going all-in upon the US request. Yes, now they for sure have a hard problem to solve. And no competency at all, in order to even approach this. First - USA are going too far by arresting other countries’ nationals in third countries. And many other countries are growing annoyed by this. I guess this more of a “show spanking” of Canada by Chinese, so that other nations think twice before just complying with such US requests.

My expectation: China laid just as obscure charges in “actions against Chinese interests” against these Canadians, as Canadians went after American obscure charges on “Iran sanctions”. All of these can be regarded as heavy crimes. I guess their fate in China is subject to what happens to that woman. If she’s released - Canadians will be let go. If she’s extradited to the USA and gets prison term there - they will also be charged in China and get just as hefty prison terms.

This Iran sanctions is not a Canadian business obviously. Canada must have been clever enough to stay out of it. Upon the request from the USA, Canadians should have just told that woman to get lost ASAP - for everyone’s sake.

I personally not a fan of the idea of grabbing rather innocent people and holding them hostages. But practice of arresting other nations’ citizens and handing them over to a third country is not any better, and this needs to come to an end in international relations. Same as attempts of some countries to spread their jurisdictions well outside of their borders. If some officials and some nations can’t comprehend this voluntary, someone has to teach them hard way.
Last edited by anrec80 on Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
anrec80
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Re: China ratchets up pressure on Canada over Huawei VP Arrest

Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:18 pm

wingman wrote:
Canada should arrest 10 well-connected high profile Chinese living in Vancouver for stuff like taking pictures and driving violations. That would be hilarious.


Where will Canada then take money for taxes? And foreign investments?
 
anrec80
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Re: China ratchets up pressure on Canada over Huawei VP Arrest

Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:34 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Or any country ruled by law.


Which law? And written by whom? An officer of Chinese company was engaged in trade transactions allowed by Chinese law - who has problems with that? Yes, such transactions may be prohibited by U.S. to the U.S. citizens, but this is solely U.S. business and U.S. problems. Neither China nor Canada have any business here.
 
Flighty
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Re: China ratchets up pressure on Canada over Huawei VP Arrest

Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:25 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
China is usually a bit better researched with their retaliatory actions. I wonder why the hell they think this is a good angle to take with Canada.


Canada should have thought before just doing it and going all-in upon the US request. Yes, now they for sure have a hard problem to solve. And no competency at all, in order to even approach this. First - USA are going too far by arresting other countries’ nationals in third countries. And many other countries are growing annoyed by this. I guess this more of a “show spanking” of Canada by Chinese, so that other nations think twice before just complying with such US requests.

My expectation: China laid just as obscure charges in “actions against Chinese interests” against these Canadians, as Canadians went after American obscure charges on “Iran sanctions”. All of these can be regarded as heavy crimes. I guess their fate in China is subject to what happens to that woman. If she’s released - Canadians will be let go. If she’s extradited to the USA and gets prison term there - they will also be charged in China and get just as hefty prison terms.

This Iran sanctions is not a Canadian business obviously. Canada must have been clever enough to stay out of it. Upon the request from the USA, Canadians should have just told that woman to get lost ASAP - for everyone’s sake.

I personally not a fan of the idea of grabbing rather innocent people and holding them hostages. But practice of arresting other nations’ citizens and handing them over to a third country is not any better, and this needs to come to an end in international relations. Same as attempts of some countries to spread their jurisdictions well outside of their borders. If some officials and some nations can’t comprehend this voluntary, someone has to teach them hard way.


She is not really innocent; she is part of a large arm of the Chinese spy apparatus. She is a Chinese "princess" with ties to the leadership. She is an oligarch, part of an evil, criminal totalitarian dictatorship. Same situation as the Saudis, just much bigger and more evil.
 
YYZatcboy
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Re: China ratchets up pressure on Canada over Huawei VP Arrest

Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:45 am

anrec80 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Or any country ruled by law.


Which law? And written by whom? An officer of Chinese company was engaged in trade transactions allowed by Chinese law - who has problems with that? Yes, such transactions may be prohibited by U.S. to the U.S. citizens, but this is solely U.S. business and U.S. problems. Neither China nor Canada have any business here.


Since you seem to have no understanding of what is actually happening here...

This lady is accused of committing a crime by buying US goods and shipping them to Iran via China, in violation of US Law. She chose to travel through a country with an extradition treaty with the USA, so when the USA found out she was coming they issued an extradition request which meant Canada had no choice but to arrest her and hold her for an extradition hearing. To not do so would be a violation of Canadian/US law as per the treaty.

If she had sold Chinese goods to Iran, none of this would have been actionable by the USA.

Canada is stuck between a rock and a hard place here. We can't have just told her to get lost. We are a country ruled and bound by law. Making an exception for her would set a bad precedent.
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anrec80
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Re: China ratchets up pressure on Canada over Huawei VP Arrest

Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:08 am

YYZatcboy wrote:
Since you seem to have no understanding of what is actually happening here...

This lady is accused of committing a crime by buying US goods and shipping them to Iran via China, in violation of US Law. She chose to travel through a country with an extradition treaty with the USA, so when the USA found out she was coming they issued an extradition request which meant Canada had no choice but to arrest her and hold her for an extradition hearing. To not do so would be a violation of Canadian/US law as per the treaty.

If she had sold Chinese goods to Iran, none of this would have been actionable by the USA.

Canada is stuck between a rock and a hard place here. We can't have just told her to get lost. We are a country ruled and bound by law. Making an exception for her would set a bad precedent.


I do understand what’s going on here. From Canadian standpoint, the matter is arguable. Yes, she bought US good to China legally from standpoint of both countries. The goods are now in Chinese jurisdiction, the US law has nothing to do there. Then she might have sold these goods to Iran from China - and again legally from this time Chinese standpoint. The USA may think differently - what does Canada have to do here? The USA here is simply abusing the agreements intended for extradition of American citizens back to the USA for trials - this fashion of requesting third country nationals is something new.

Then - such extradition agreements exist between many countries - Canada/China, Canada/USA, USA/Russia, etc. Generally, all these agreements have some exclusions - “national interests”, “possibility of death sentence”, “political prosecution”. Which treaty is the priority in this case? An equivalent would be how Hong Kong and Russia handled Edward Snowden - Hong Kong agents just escorted him out of country to the SU flight. Then, Russians let him stay. Both countries said “sorry, we deem this a political prosecution”, and Snowden is still in Russia AFAIR. Yes, USA weren’t happy, but that was all to it.

Or - even simpler - “sorry, we missed her, she flew away”.

Same here - Canada should have (and certainly could have legally, within the scope of the treaty) say “There is your relationship with Iran in this picture, we deem this a political case, you figure this matter yourself with China”. And since she is not a Canadian citizen, she can be asked to leave at any time, again legally. Sure, Americans would have expressed some unhappiness, but that would have been all. No rock, and no hard place.

And - a legislature change regarding this kind of cases would have been useful - the country of citizenship of such individual takes precedence.
Last edited by anrec80 on Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
anrec80
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Re: China ratchets up pressure on Canada over Huawei VP Arrest

Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:12 am

Flighty wrote:
She is not really innocent; she is part of a large arm of the Chinese spy apparatus. She is a Chinese "princess" with ties to the leadership. She is an oligarch, part of an evil, criminal totalitarian dictatorship. Same situation as the Saudis, just much bigger and more evil.


Even in that case - it’s none of Canadian business, who she is - an Oligarch, part of some “dictatorship”, or something else. She does not and never had any problems with Canadian law, that’s all that matters to Canada.

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