rabenschlag
Topic Author
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 10:28 pm

The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:42 pm

Hi peeps,

I'm working in a business where social justice is taken fairly serious. So, we talk a lot about white privilege, male privilege, heterosexual privilege and so forth.

But, here is the big but, we rarely talk about language, and at the same time, it matters a lot. Write a business proposal, a scientific paper, a patent, give a talk, a presentation, negotiate IN YOUR NATIVE LANGUAGE vs. A FOREIGN language. It makes a huge difference. It's way easier in you native language. Less effort, more professionalism, more confidence. Superiority by language.

Now, in the business world, the science world, the politics world, the tourism world, English is the dominant language. As a German, if I want to be successful in my profession, I have to write, talk, and negotiate in English, not my native language. My British, Australian, New Zealandian, and US of A'ian colleagues have an edge on me, all the time. It sucks, it's a non-earned privilege, and nobody seems to care.

What do you think?

What can we do about getting even in terms of language?

Do anglophone people feel guilty about their anglophone privilege? Would they be willing to do something to get even?

Do other non-anglophone people also experience illegitimate disadvantage compared to native anglophones?

Why did Esperanto fail? Can there anything be done to revitalise it?

If not Esperanto, what would be an alternative to English? Latin? Ancient Greek? But this would be eurocentric....

Best,

Rabenschlag
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7762
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:17 pm

Yay! Something new for the SJWs to find safe spaces for. Welcome 2019! :mrgreen:
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
NIKV69
Posts: 12676
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:24 pm

:sarcastic: Ugh I am sorry I opened this thread.
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die,
 
bennett123
Posts: 8908
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:41 pm

I don't feel guilty.

If I pondered on all my supposed privileges, I would not sleep at night.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3527
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:43 pm

As a German, Bismarck when asked what was the greatest political fact of modern times is reported to have said, "the inherited and permanent fact that North America speaks English.". So, there’s that, be happy.

GF
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1661
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:51 pm

What is your proposed solution?
Last edited by VTKillarney on Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:55 pm

Aww, diddums.

That is all.
 
Ken777
Posts: 9884
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:19 pm

For good or bad English is the universal language. I can remember a pic of a US Army team in an Iraq airport towards the end of GW II. The airport sign seen was marked in Arabic and just under that was "Arrivals" in English. Same with Hong Kong and every airport I've been to in the world. I was always impressed that Hong Kong had so many languages, but one could always get around and spend money.

Another area besides flight where a single language is critical would be computer technology. I can remember Fortran programming in the early 70s - my first attempt and we programmed on punch cards. I can remember thinking of the chaos if we tried to advance in multiple languages. We are far enough advanced now that English might not be needed in some programming shops, but I bet is is still an advantage.

One issue I find frustrating is that I can't speak the language when I travel places like France or Italy. I've been fortunate enough to travel to a lot of countries after getting the "travel bug" in the Navy and I can't learn a dozen languages, leaving me unable to totally enjoy the places I have been to. Lack of communication in those places is totally my fault.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:25 pm

It could be worse. It might have been French.
 
airtran737
Posts: 3421
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:41 pm

I have nothing to feel guilty for. I put myself through school, I bought my home, I earned my job, and nobody helped me or kissed my ass on the way. Those who whine and bitch about white privilege are too nutless to step up and pave their own way forward.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
rabenschlag
Topic Author
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 10:28 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:55 pm

airtran737 wrote:
Those who whine and bitch about white privilege are too nutless to step up and pave their own way forward.


Yeah, but this thread is about the privilege of English being a dominant language in some realms of professional interactions, creating an unfair advantage of those who are native speakers.

Maybe with Britain leaving the EU, English will lose impact on the continent. After all, ní teanga dúchais na Gaeilge í an Béarla.
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1661
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:59 pm

Why is it unfair? Losing two world wars has consequences.

And I’ve yet to hear a solution. Only complaints.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 6801
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:00 pm

I grew up with English as my native language. I dont view being an Anglophone as a privilege, just as a matter of circumstance. Historically, the last great colonial power was the British and their language was English so it's easy to see why English is the language of business today.

But I also grew up in a community where I as a Caucasian was the ethnic minority. The 2 languages heard from other kids were English and Street Spanish/Spanglish. In every classroom there was a quotes that went along the lines of, "for every language you learn, your value is doubled." Pandering/white sympathy? Very possible. But there is some truth to the statement IMO. I believe learning a foreign language opens yourself up to the world and enables you to see things from a greater perspective. I took Spanish in high school and college in Russian. Im very hard on myself in the name of modesty but I do feel good about learning the languages I learned and I feel more connected to the world as a whole.

As far as Anglophone privilege, I think thats borderline insulting. Many non-native English speaking people have made it in the world and have effected it in many different ways. Native language is just part of the hand you're dealt at birth and through childhood, not some kind of indirect systematic oppression.

Esperanto failed due to the rise of globalization and translation software and translators.

The next big language to replace English would be that of the survivor of a nuclear war. Seeing as I really believe we wont see a nuclear war, it seems like English is here to stay especially since many countries teach it in school to children from day 1, something which has never been done at any other point in human history.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8497
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:04 pm

Feel 0 guilt. Why should I? I didn't choose that my native language is the de facto world language (or probably as close as we've gotten to one)

I wouldn't mind learning another truly universal language, but I doubt many other English speakers would. I don't think many non-English speakers would neither (not only did they learn their native language, they had to suffer through learning English, and now another language?)

I'm kind of an idealist and would love a great, easy, simple constructed language but that's a lot of effort. The closest thing to a universal language is English. Might as well stick with that.

And before anyone says, yes I know Mandarin or maybe even Spanish has more speakers or native speakers, but come on, hard to argue against English being more universal. And yes it might seem Western centric... I guess... But that's where most of your technology, economy, etc is concentrated... the "west" and countries with high numbers of English speakers (native or secondary)
Last edited by DeltaMD90 on Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
rabenschlag
Topic Author
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 10:28 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:06 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Why is it unfair? Losing two world wars has consequences.


Yes, consequences. But that does not necessarily mean that these consequences are fair. And especially not if I compete with an, lets say, American of my age (born in the 1970ties), and she has an edge because of language issues. Heck, she could have spend all the hours it took me to learn English to learn something else.

So, I cannot see that it makes sense to use the bad deeds of our forefathers to justify unfair situations in the present. And this would be a slippery slope, especially for the USA. Hint, slavery.

But anyways, I guess that the non anglophone members of the WW2 allies also suffer from being disadvantaged by not being able to speak or write in the native language in many professional contexts.
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1661
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:06 pm

You chose us. We didn’t force you to speak our language. It’s the market of ideas at its finest.
 
rabenschlag
Topic Author
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 10:28 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:10 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
You chose us. We didn’t force you to speak our language. It’s the market of ideas at its finest.


Yeah, but together, we could make a change. I think it is part of the American spirit to compete in a fair and equal way. So, in a globalist effort, a truly global language could be created that does not favour anyone.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8497
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:18 pm

Like most SJW* complaints, I'm not really seeing the point of this. Are we gonna penalize English speakers and their works? Let people publish in whatever language and have people learn a multitude of random languages? Force everyone to learn a new language?

If we let everyone publish in their own language (which they're free to do) I guess it'll be easier for them (yay!) but hardly anyone will read it (unless they read Romanian, Mogolian, Tagalog, etc) so boo

If you force a new language on everyone then yes, English speakers will have to learn a new language like everyone else...... But the person struggling in Honduras that had to jump through hoops to learn English now has to jump through even more hoops to learn gobblegoopian


So rabenschlag what is your... point, solution, etc? You seem to be going on about injustice and all and countering what many of us are saying. What is your ideal? And how do you think that ideal will work in the real world?


*I use SJW in the more extreme sense, not the many legitimate conversations about race, gender, income, etc
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 6801
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:20 pm

rabenschlag wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
You chose us. We didn’t force you to speak our language. It’s the market of ideas at its finest.


Yeah, but together, we could make a change. I think it is part of the American spirit to compete in a fair and equal way. So, in a globalist effort, a truly global language could be created that does not favour anyone.

English is the globalist language. It sure isnt the American way to make it so, especially considering the US doesn't have an official language. English is the result of competition and is here to stay until the next truly pivotal moment in human history. It has nothing to do with anything Americans have done.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8497
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:23 pm

I guess I can easily just poll some of the non-native English speakers:

You know X language, you also learned English, maybe you know another language or two. Do you want to learn yet another language just to make it "fair" that us English speakers have to be bilingual?
 
User avatar
johnboy
Posts: 3052
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 9:09 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:30 am

airtran737 wrote:
I have nothing to feel guilty for. I put myself through school, I bought my home, I earned my job, and nobody helped me or kissed my ass on the way. Those who whine and bitch about white privilege are too nutless to step up and pave their own way forward.


My dumbass friend said the same thing. That is in no way, shape or form white privilege.
 
jcancel
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:48 am

If you don't mind me asking, in what decade did you attend university? I understand, for example, it was way cheaper in the 70s.

Also people can and do get an advantage from their family environment. In many poor immigrant families in which the parents truly love their children, they find they can't help the kids with their middle school homework.

airtran737 wrote:
I have nothing to feel guilty for. I put myself through school, I bought my home, I earned my job, and nobody helped me or kissed my ass on the way. Those who whine and bitch about white privilege are too nutless to step up and pave their own way forward.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11737
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:11 am

Actually I think English will peak some day and recede from there, thanks to technology. When we'll all have tech that can translate most languages perfectly, then there will be no need to learn anything other than one language.

BTW, there is an advantage to the disadvantage, for example at work I'm the only one in my team that can pick up the phone and speak English to UK or Canadian tech support, meaning my job is super safe.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
anrec80
Posts: 2029
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:55 am

You can buy in your language, but you have to sell in the other person's language.
 
User avatar
FlightMode
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:45 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:08 am

rabenschlag wrote:
Do anglophone people feel guilty about their anglophone privilege? Would they be willing to do something to get even?


Frankly, it would be absurd to feel guilty over something I have no control over. I did not choose to be an English speaker anymore than I chose to have pale skin, hazel eyes and be cis-gender androphilic.

When it comes to negotiation, it isn't just language that is important. Technical competence and market strength and/or size can be just as importance. For a long time German car and lens manufacturers had a strong reputation which gave them advantages in the market, despite English not being native.

Oddly enough, during a stay at a hotel in Paris, I spoke in French to the receptionist about a problem. Recognising that French wasn't my native language, she replied in German. Fortunately I am able to speak that language with greater ease. ;)
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12192
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:02 am

rabenschlag wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
Those who whine and bitch about white privilege are too nutless to step up and pave their own way forward.


Yeah, but this thread is about the privilege of English being a dominant language in some realms of professional interactions, creating an unfair advantage of those who are native speakers.

Maybe with Britain leaving the EU, English will lose impact on the continent. After all, ní teanga dúchais na Gaeilge í an Béarla.


I doubt it, my company is Norwegian, we have manufacturing and sales locations around Europe, English is the company language not Norwegian or German.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 3825
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:36 am

Whenever I'm in Zurich, I always speak French to reduce the perpetuation and normalisation of English and German. :D
First to fly the 787-9
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1966
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:50 am

I genuinely appreciate that so many people speak English. I'm not complaining. My French sucks. My Japanese sucks more. My knowledge of other languages is worse. But I do try when I'm abroad.
 
User avatar
Channex757
Posts: 2350
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:07 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:06 am

anrec80 wrote:
You can buy in your language, but you have to sell in the other person's language.

That is a great summary of why English is so widely used. Britain was (still is actually) a maritime nation and its ships would travel the world, trading with the newer lands. Forget the empire aspect for a moment; if you were a local merchant and wanted to export your spices or cloth then you had to trade with the ship owners and their representatives on the dock. No telephones in those days or faxes etc.

because of that huge merchant fleet English became the language that you really needed to use. This tradition was helped along by colonisation of places like Australia and North America, so the language stuck. Just like other languages, a day might come when it is eclipsed. After all look how important to the Known World the language of Latin in Rome was. Now it doe survive but only in its distant relatives and the widely used Spanish is the major form. Another aspect is that places like India took on the English Common Law when they became independent as a model for their legal system so the lawyers also need to be proficient in English. Many other nations did too. English remains the language of Government and legal business in India.

It isn't SJ. It's history. You can't rewrite history except by lying and it's just a plain inescapable fact that the British are curious and like to sail.
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1966
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:22 am

rabenschlag wrote:
Hi peeps,

I'm working in a business where social justice is taken fairly serious. So, we talk a lot about white privilege, male privilege, heterosexual privilege and so forth.

But, here is the big but, we rarely talk about language, and at the same time, it matters a lot. Write a business proposal, a scientific paper, a patent, give a talk, a presentation, negotiate IN YOUR NATIVE LANGUAGE vs. A FOREIGN language. It makes a huge difference. It's way easier in you native language. Less effort, more professionalism, more confidence. Superiority by language.

Now, in the business world, the science world, the politics world, the tourism world, English is the dominant language. As a German, if I want to be successful in my profession, I have to write, talk, and negotiate in English, not my native language. My British, Australian, New Zealandian, and US of A'ian colleagues have an edge on me, all the time. It sucks, it's a non-earned privilege, and nobody seems to care.

What do you think?

What can we do about getting even in terms of language?

Do anglophone people feel guilty about their anglophone privilege? Would they be willing to do something to get even?

Do other non-anglophone people also experience illegitimate disadvantage compared to native anglophones?

Why did Esperanto fail? Can there anything be done to revitalise it?

If not Esperanto, what would be an alternative to English? Latin? Ancient Greek? But this would be eurocentric....

Best,

Rabenschlag


Also, I should mention English is a Germanic language. I'm pretty sure that's why native speakers of other Germanic languages seem to speak English the best. Likewise, I've found other Germanic languages very easy to pick up on or decipher without previous exposure.

Learning French has helped me figure out Spanish and Portuguese. Learning Japanese helped me read Chinese (useless for the spoken language though).

Basically, not really sure why you would find it problematic personally. Germans tend to speak English particularly well and German is a popular second language in the US relative to the global population of native German speakers.

Also Esperanto failed because languages form naturally. It was an unnatural thing. Also Mandarin is the most common language in the world owing to China's giant population, but it would be a terrible lingua franca. It's inflexible and insanely difficult to learn with a ton of dialects that don't seem all that mutually intelligible in my experience (I don't know if that's different for native speakers)
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3724
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:16 pm

Jouhou wrote:
a ton of dialects that don't seem all that mutually intelligible in my experience (I don't know if that's different for native speakers)
I don't know Mandarin, so won't comment on that. I do know Dutch, English, German and basic French. Local dialects happen in every language. I guarantee you that when I speak English (with Dutch accent), it will be more easily understood then when someone from England or the USA speaks with a strong accent. Same for German.

Also, native speakers get complacent using their language. I can't count the amount of times I have had to correct the spelling or grammar from native (USA/UK) speakers. Even for important legal documents.

But let's sayt here is Anglophone privilege? What would you suggest as an alternative?
  • Japanese or Mandarin? Have fun learning learning their characters. I prefer letters over icons thank you very much;
  • German? Have fun learning the 16 different uses of cases (der/die/das/die, des/der/des/der, dem/der/dem/den(n), den/die/das/die).
    The German basic vocabulary is more limited compared to English. They get around that by combining words. But that makes words complicated and at time confusing. English has a larger vocabulary, which can make their language more precise. I've read through English legal documents without difficulty. I had to go over a German speeding ticket six times before I understood what they wanted me to do.
    Also, the numbers are a bit weird. The numbers below 100 switch around the numbers below ten and above 10. What I mean is, in English you would say seventyfive, in German you would say fünfundsiebzig (fiveandseventy). However, this only applies to numbers below hundred. So 175 becomes hundertfünfundsiebzig (hundred five and seventy).
  • Dutch? It's a simplified version of German leaning heavily towards English. The grammar is easier then German, but still more complicated then English. Same issue with numbers as well.
  • French? Again complicated grammar (le/la/les, de/de la/de l'/des).
    The French numbering system is a crime against common sense. For instance, 99 is spoken as quatre-vingt-dix-neuf, or 4-20-10-9) Try figuring out a phone number when someone speaks fast? Is the number 4-20-10-9, or 99, or 80-10-9, or 80-19?

I do not know other languages well enough to comment on them.
Attamottamotta!
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 4871
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:38 pm

If anything, native English speakers tend to bear the disadvantage of generally being only proficient in one language.
The downside of English being a somewhat universally spoken language is that when you speak it off the bat, there is little incentive to learn another one.

I find native english speakers across the world to be generally quite lazy when it comes to learning or speaking anything else which, if you ask me, is more of a handicap nowaday, especially in our increasingly global and competitive World.

So you're forced to learn and use a new language... congratulations, that makes you better than most.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3072
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:19 pm

Francoflier wrote:
If anything, native English speakers tend to bear the disadvantage of generally being only proficient in one language.
The downside of English being a somewhat universally spoken language is that when you speak it off the bat, there is little incentive to learn another one.

I find native english speakers across the world to be generally quite lazy when it comes to learning or speaking anything else which, if you ask me, is more of a handicap nowaday, especially in our increasingly global and competitive World.

So you're forced to learn and use a new language... congratulations, that makes you better than most.


All fair comments. English speakers are privileged, and denying that is simply one of the hallmarks of privilege. That said it is simply a historical fact. For almost any speaker of any other language the world around - what is the most useful second language to learn. In exceptional cases it may be something besides English.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1661
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:28 pm

I’m still waiting for a proposed solution rather than mere complaining.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:35 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
I’m still waiting for a proposed solution rather than mere complaining.

Instead of taking over the thread, why not try to address the OP's questions?

What do you think?

What can we do about getting even in terms of language?

Do anglophone people feel guilty about their anglophone privilege? Would they be willing to do something to get even?

Do other non-anglophone people also experience illegitimate disadvantage compared to native anglophones?

Why did Esperanto fail? Can there anything be done to revitalise it?

If not Esperanto, what would be an alternative to English? Latin? Ancient Greek? But this would be eurocentric....
 
marcelh
Posts: 675
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:05 pm

Although it’s easier to use my native languages than English, I don’t have a problem with it. And having visiting the USA, I do know ons thing for sure: only a small part of the population is able to speak English....
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2774
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:37 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Also Esperanto failed because languages form naturally. It was an unnatural thing. Also Mandarin is the most common language in the world owing to China's giant population, but it would be a terrible lingua franca. It's inflexible and insanely difficult to learn with a ton of dialects that don't seem all that mutually intelligible in my experience (I don't know if that's different for native speakers)


Depends on how you define "dialects" (i.e. Dongbei Mandarin vs. Beijing ("Standard") Mandarin vs. Chengdu Mandarin)? Mandarin dialects in general are not that bad when it comes to mutual intelligibility. The more "local" languages are much worse, though. For instance, Cantonese and Toishanese are both dialects of Yue Chinese (the former being the dominant one). I'm from HK and can certainly understand the former, but when I hear those Toishanese in Toishan (or SF Chinatown)? Nope, can't understand a word. Somebody from Shanghai will say the same thing about Wenzhouese, the Devil's Language (Both are dialects of Wu Chinese).

BTW, I'm opposite of you - I learned Spanish which helps with me at least understand some (written) Portuguese and French, while knowing Chinese made learning Japanese 10x easier. Oh, and nobody in Paris understand my crappy French :rotfl: :rotfl: (My Japanese is better, at least I can make simple conversation with it).

marcelh wrote:
Although it’s easier to use my native languages than English, I don’t have a problem with it. And having visiting the USA, I do know ons thing for sure: only a small part of the population is able to speak English....


Small Part of US population? :rotfl:
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11737
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:58 pm

petertenthije wrote:
The French numbering system is a crime against common sense. For instance, 99 is spoken as quatre-vingt-dix-neuf, or 4-20-10-9) Try figuring out a phone number when someone speaks fast? Is the number 4-20-10-9, or 99, or 80-10-9, or 80-19?[/list]


We could do it like in English telling the digits one by one, but we don't for some reason. The Walloons and Romands have figured out alternatives, though.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 9532
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:18 pm

rabenschlag wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
You chose us. We didn’t force you to speak our language. It’s the market of ideas at its finest.


Yeah, but together, we could make a change. I think it is part of the American spirit to compete in a fair and equal way. So, in a globalist effort, a truly global language could be created that does not favour anyone.


You have relatively cheap, well-managed healthcare, and Americans don't, especially if they lose their jobs. I'd call that pretty even.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2774
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:18 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
rabenschlag wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
You chose us. We didn’t force you to speak our language. It’s the market of ideas at its finest.


Yeah, but together, we could make a change. I think it is part of the American spirit to compete in a fair and equal way. So, in a globalist effort, a truly global language could be created that does not favour anyone.


You have relatively cheap, well-managed healthcare, and Americans don't, especially if they lose their jobs. I'd call that pretty even.


English is not just being spoken in US, though. Just cross the border to Canada and you got relatively cheap, fairly well-managed healthcare also (I was going to use UK as my example, but while healthcare is also relatively cheap there, NHS is anything but well-managed :scratchchin: ). Hack, Canadian has the privilege of knowing English AND French also.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
JJJ
Posts: 3303
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:43 pm

Francoflier wrote:
If anything, native English speakers tend to bear the disadvantage of generally being only proficient in one language.
The downside of English being a somewhat universally spoken language is that when you speak it off the bat, there is little incentive to learn another one.

I find native english speakers across the world to be generally quite lazy when it comes to learning or speaking anything else which, if you ask me, is more of a handicap nowaday, especially in our increasingly global and competitive World.


This one gets it. In my view being Anglophone is more of a hurdle than a privilege. Watching other nationalities butcher your language is always a fun exercise, though.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:30 pm

rabenschlag wrote:
Hi peeps,

I'm working in a business where social justice is taken fairly serious. So, we talk a lot about white privilege, male privilege, heterosexual privilege and so forth.

But, here is the big but, we rarely talk about language, and at the same time, it matters a lot. Write a business proposal, a scientific paper, a patent, give a talk, a presentation, negotiate IN YOUR NATIVE LANGUAGE vs. A FOREIGN language. It makes a huge difference. It's way easier in you native language. Less effort, more professionalism, more confidence. Superiority by language.

Now, in the business world, the science world, the politics world, the tourism world, English is the dominant language. As a German, if I want to be successful in my profession, I have to write, talk, and negotiate in English, not my native language. My British, Australian, New Zealandian, and US of A'ian colleagues have an edge on me, all the time. It sucks, it's a non-earned privilege, and nobody seems to care.

What do you think?

What can we do about getting even in terms of language?

Do anglophone people feel guilty about their anglophone privilege? Would they be willing to do something to get even?

Do other non-anglophone people also experience illegitimate disadvantage compared to native anglophones?

Why did Esperanto fail? Can there anything be done to revitalise it?

If not Esperanto, what would be an alternative to English? Latin? Ancient Greek? But this would be eurocentric....

Best,

Rabenschlag


What about able bodied privilege? Shall we cut off a leg to even the playing field?

Sorry but your whole post is just pure nonsense.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 20458
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:43 am

I speak English and Spanish. When I speak Spanish to a native Spanish speaker, they speak English back to me. I used to get frustrated, but someone told me they just want to practice English.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
steveinbc
Posts: 263
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:30 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:45 am

What I don't get in all the "privilege" arguments is why it has to be a negative, undermining of those who hold the "privilege". In business, there's a determination to emulate "best practices" regardless of their origin. In our consistently social engineering world we would rather seek to denigrate what is successful rather than examine what practices enable those to hold these "privileges"
China while holding its communist heritage also purposefully embraced capitalist principles to become a major economic powerhouse. Maybe that's the path we should also consider rather than simply pulling down those we think are too successful, powerful and "privileged".
A319 320 321 330 340 380 B707 727 737 747 757 767 777 787 BAe1-11 Trident 1, 2, 3B Viscount Lancaster VC10 HS748, ATP DHC-1, 3 Dash-8 Dash-400 Shorts 330 360 Embraer Banderiante Brasileria 175 190 BAe146 Saab 200 DC-3 -8 -9 -10 MD-11 ATR42-72
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1966
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:11 am

steveinbc wrote:
What I don't get in all the "privilege" arguments is why it has to be a negative, undermining of those who hold the "privilege". In business, there's a determination to emulate "best practices" regardless of their origin. In our consistently social engineering world we would rather seek to denigrate what is successful rather than examine what practices enable those to hold these "privileges"
China while holding its communist heritage also purposefully embraced capitalist principles to become a major economic powerhouse. Maybe that's the path we should also consider rather than simply pulling down those we think are too successful, powerful and "privileged".


I dunno, when it comes to "white privilege" I always took it to mean I need to be mindful of those who are less fortunate than me and try to share my " privilege" with them whenever the opportunity arises. Like, if I see other white people being rude to people of other races I will step in and call them out. When I talk to people who are working as hotel or restaurant staff and they mention they live in a neighborhood I know to be impoverished I tip generously because I know they will most likely spend that money in their neighborhood. I'm not going to be ashamed of being born the way I was though.

As for the euro-centric nature of the languages most commonly used as a lingua franca, yes it's a by-product of colonialism. The existence of common second languages is too beneficial though to just deem it unfair and try moving away from it.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8722
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:14 am

petertenthije wrote:
I had to go over a German speeding ticket six times before I understood what they wanted me to do.
...
For instance, 99 is spoken as quatre-vingt-dix-neuf, or 4-20-10-9) Try figuring out a phone number when someone speaks fast?

rambling:

Intractable official texts a problem?
This is not limited to non natives at all. "vollständig unverständliche Behördensprache" :-)

Would a french person actually communicate a phone number in combined values?
( phone for CDG airiport : +33 1 70 36 39 50 )

like +33 - 1 - 70 - 36 - 39 - 50+33 1 70 36 39 50
or + 3 - 3 - 1 - 7 - 0 - 3 - 6 - 3 - 9 - 5 - 0
or even France - 1 - 7 - 0 - 3 - 6 - 3 - 9 - 5 - 0


When doing a call to England people often answer with something like "Colchester 1 - 2 - 4 - 4"
No name given. Germans tend to give their name, either full or only the first or last name.

Then German style "LEGO" words are decoded starting at the rear. makes things easier.
Donaudampfschifffahrtskapitänsmütze.
Donau dampf schiff fahrt kapitän mütze.
We talk about the captains hat with specifics given in the run up :-))))))))))
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
Posts: 8722
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:13 am

language dominance:

Is sitting in the center so to speak really of advantage?
Even if it is forced on you
Access to multiple cultures and languages is a pronounced advantage.

Just look at the prominence of Army Brats and the likes in the American environment.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 3825
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:36 am

Francoflier wrote:
If anything, native English speakers tend to bear the disadvantage of generally being only proficient in one language.
The downside of English being a somewhat universally spoken language is that when you speak it off the bat, there is little incentive to learn another one.

I find native english speakers across the world to be generally quite lazy when it comes to learning or speaking anything else which, if you ask me, is more of a handicap nowaday, especially in our increasingly global and competitive World.


So true. This is why I love European culture so much; everyone is at least bi-lingual and in the case of nearly everyone aged 15-60 from Continental Europe multilingual. In the Anglosaxon world, most people don't bother learning anything else and to be honest our whole anglosaxon 'system' seems to disfavor that.

I remember about 12 years ago in High School I had a choice to make about which language class I would choose. School offered French, Spanish, Portugese, Japanese and Cantonese. Because I was in the top stream, the timetabling dictated that I had to choose either French or Spanish. I was already fluent in French, so that seemed to be the obvious option - easier and guaranteed full marks. All my friends wanted me to chose that so that I could help them and make their lives easier. The dean suggested that French would be the obvious choice. French teacher wanted me to choose French since that would make her life easier.

I chose Spanish and it's easily one of the top 10 best decisions that I've made in my lifetime.
First to fly the 787-9
 
User avatar
Channex757
Posts: 2350
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:07 am

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:51 pm

Old git rambling time.....when I was in the later years of High School, we went on a trip to Spain. Unfortunately it was in north eastern Spain so many people just spoke Catalan.

At the next table to us in the hotel restaurant was a French family, and every morning I'd greet them and have a brief chat in High School French. The feeling was incredible; this lovely family who spoke no English could understand me! It also helped reinforce how wrong I was to drop French after my GCE exams.

My point is...yes the British are lazy with language but actually learning another language and then using it out in the real world was such a buzz.....
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8497
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:08 pm

I think calling us lazy for not knowing another language pretty disingenuous. The education system, at least where I grew up, required us to take language classes throughout the years, but it was structured so poorly.

Took German in first grade, French in fifth and eighth grade, and Spanish in sixth, ninth, and maybe another grade? A semester in college.

What good is that going to do for me? I wanted to learn a language over the years and tried but have really no one to practice with and it ate into my already low free time, and it was completely unneeded in anything I do (let's be real, most people learn another language because it's needed, not to do it just to be big/tried/etc-lingual.

Maybe we should talk about the non-native English speakers privilege... you all have more of a means, resources, etc to learn another language (cue heads exploding.) Don't worry, mostly joking about that

But for real, non-native English speakers, think about the fact that we don't have an education system that is conducive (at all) to learning another language, it's often very hard to get access to foreign speakers (we all don't live next to immigrants, and plus, you're not going to befriend some random person just to use them for practicing a language), and the fact that we don't even need it prioritizes it way lower for obvious reasons

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: frmrCapCadet, MaverickM11, Molykote, petertenthije, sabenapilot, THS214 and 30 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos