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trpmb6
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:52 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

The employees here have been formally furloughed thru civil service action. They’re not working, so they’re not getting paid.

GF


The dumb thing is these people will all end up getting paid anyways. For work that wasn't completed. Then I bet they end up working OT hours to catch back up wasting more money.

We should stop it with the people being sent home and just make them work all the same. Everyone here knows they're going to get paid. Hell I bet some workers look forward to the extra paid holiday, as long as they can weather a week or two of delayed deposits.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:59 pm

afcjets wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Every one of those is a Trash Opinion piece with no pointing to the real GDP over 8 years. The first one is from 2012 The washington post is behind a paywall so it can't be verified. The last one is a complete trash piece and ignores gdp and the 2 shutdowns and fiscal cliffs that the GOP led congress sent us to.


I didn’t encounter any paywall on the Washington Post article and it is clearly not an opinion piece, which is why the link shows the subcategory news and it is written by someone they identify as a reporter.


Then post something of use from it, because it is behind a paywall .
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:02 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

The employees here have been formally furloughed thru civil service action. They’re not working, so they’re not getting paid.

GF


The dumb thing is these people will all end up getting paid anyways. For work that wasn't completed. Then I bet they end up working OT hours to catch back up wasting more money.

We should stop it with the people being sent home and just make them work all the same. Everyone here knows they're going to get paid. Hell I bet some workers look forward to the extra paid holiday, as long as they can weather a week or two of delayed deposits.


And people wonder why Federal workers hate the GOP so much So much assuming about people's work ethic.

These folks are not able to work and are HIJACKED by the lying ,dishonorable , philandering, racist fraud we have sitting the in oval office, and his equally dishonorable lying cohorts in the GOP chambers of Congress.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:10 pm

casinterest wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

The employees here have been formally furloughed thru civil service action. They’re not working, so they’re not getting paid.

GF


The dumb thing is these people will all end up getting paid anyways. For work that wasn't completed. Then I bet they end up working OT hours to catch back up wasting more money.

We should stop it with the people being sent home and just make them work all the same. Everyone here knows they're going to get paid. Hell I bet some workers look forward to the extra paid holiday, as long as they can weather a week or two of delayed deposits.


And people wonder why Federal workers hate the GOP so much So much assuming about people's work ethic.

These folks are not able to work and are HIJACKED by the lying ,dishonorable , philandering, racist fraud we have sitting the in oval office, and his equally dishonorable lying cohorts in the GOP chambers of Congress.


You misunderstand what I'm saying.

Give me an extra week off around the holidays where I know I'm going to get paid anyways? Hell yeah I'm all for that. Especially if I get to come back and work some OT to make even more money to catch back up.

Stop projecting what you *want* me to say, and just read what I've said. No where in there did I mention anything about anyone's work ethic.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:11 pm

As opposed to the sainted and tainted lying, thieving, philandering, racist Democrats, I suppose? Let’s start with “I did not have sex with that woman” and move to, “if you like your health insurance and your doctor, you can keep them.”

GF
 
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Tugger
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:11 pm

casinterest wrote:
Then post something of use from it, because it is behind a paywall .

Clear your cookies and I suspect you will be able to access it.

Interestingly the article does not lay the problem at President Obama's feet, rather it says:
The problem is that our policymakers have been aggressive, but not radical. The lesson of the 1930s is that you need to be both.


Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:13 pm

The lesson of the 1920 depression that wasn’t is government should let the economy heal itself and stop interfering with private business.

GF
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:15 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:

The dumb thing is these people will all end up getting paid anyways. For work that wasn't completed. Then I bet they end up working OT hours to catch back up wasting more money.

We should stop it with the people being sent home and just make them work all the same. Everyone here knows they're going to get paid. Hell I bet some workers look forward to the extra paid holiday, as long as they can weather a week or two of delayed deposits.


And people wonder why Federal workers hate the GOP so much So much assuming about people's work ethic.

These folks are not able to work and are HIJACKED by the lying ,dishonorable , philandering, racist fraud we have sitting the in oval office, and his equally dishonorable lying cohorts in the GOP chambers of Congress.


You misunderstand what I'm saying.

Give me an extra week off around the holidays where I know I'm going to get paid anyways? Hell yeah I'm all for that. Especially if I get to come back and work some OT to make even more money to catch back up.

Stop projecting what you *want* me to say, and just read what I've said. No where in there did I mention anything about anyone's work ethic.

But it is not an extra week off, it is 2-3 weeks now, and possibly a month or more. There are real bills being missed by many workers. Real Groceries, Real mortgage, real tuition, Real Utilities. All for a Fake as Fake "Big Beautiful wall" that has not been defined yet.

You did mention work ethic.
". For work that wasn't completed"
"Then I bet they end up working OT hours to catch back up wasting more money.
"
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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smithbs
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:15 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The employees here have been formally furloughed thru civil service action. They’re not working, so they’re not getting paid.


Unless deemed "Essential," in which case they are expected to continue working despite lack of paycheck arriving.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:19 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The lesson of the 1920 depression that wasn’t is government should let the economy heal itself and stop interfering with private business.

GF


Really?
25% unemployment caused by irrational over lending and unregulation, and you want the economy to heal itself?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
apodino
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:27 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The lesson of the 1920 depression that wasn’t is government should let the economy heal itself and stop interfering with private business.

GF

There is a lot of truth in this statement. What a lot of people don't realize is that during the last administration, this is largely how the economy recovered. It wasn't anything special that Obama did or didn't do. Granted there steps the government took (I use government and not the administration because I throw the fed in there) that slowed the recovery down, but it still recovered. Politicians love to brag that they solve problems and want to get their hands on everything, but sometimes the best approach is a hands off approach and let things happen naturally. What happened with GM recently is a prime example. Yes the government subsidies propped them up for a while, but the issue is that GM is no better off today then they were before the bail out.


As for the Shutdown. The reality of 21st century politics is that most of the country is in the middle, but the majority of the power lies in the bases of the two political parties. If you compromise, you get primaried. The progressive base of the Democratic party now has Democratic politicians fearing it, especially given the upset win of Alexandria Ocassio-Cortez. The base of the republican party forced Trump to hold firm when he was ready to sign the bill without the wall, and Trump knows if he loses his base he loses his job next year. I could write a lot more on this context, but as long as the political parties are run by the bases, sensible people in congress like Susan Collins, or Stephen Lynch will be shut out, especially with their parties expanding majorities and moving further right or left.


One thing to keep an eye on in this shut down. The Koch Brothers are very anti wall and want the immigration reforms that the Democrats are pushing, and they are taking a beating on the right for it. It is no secret how much money and influence the Koch's have steered toward republicans in the past. Do the Koch Brothers have enough influence among congressional republicans where they can peel off enough republicans in both the House and the Senate to override a Trump veto on a shutdown end? Keep an eye on this going forward.
 
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Tugger
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:44 pm

apodino wrote:
I could write a lot more on this context, but as long as the political parties are run by the bases, sensible people in congress like Susan Collins, or Stephen Lynch will be shut out, especially with their parties expanding majorities and moving further right or left.

One thing to keep an eye on in this shut down. The Koch Brothers are very anti wall and want the immigration reforms that the Democrats are pushing, and they are taking a beating on the right for it. It is no secret how much money and influence the Koch's have steered toward republicans in the past. Do the Koch Brothers have enough influence among congressional republicans where they can peel off enough republicans in both the House and the Senate to override a Trump veto on a shutdown end? Keep an eye on this going forward.


While I won't pretend the Koch brothers to be "centrist", I would love to see a more independent "center" for both parties emerge. And "border security/immigration reform" could be a good place to start that. Still it would take a lot of guts and determination to get such done. There would be strong backlash from the fringes and loud talking mouths in the media (left and right mainstream outlets) which would push to "punish" any who defy them.

My start to this would be: increased immigration across various working sectors with stronger (and implemented) employment controls to address violators, combined with new border enforcement tools and repairing combined with some new, planned and vetted, barrier placement where it makes sense.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
tommy1808
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:51 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Two words—Sovereign Immunity, they can’t sue unless the government says they can.


I didn't know there was a term for "the state of law is dead", but as much as that makes no sense whatsoever, it does explain it. Thanks.
Here the government's above the law status ends with their decisions standing until finally ruled on.

Second, US civil servants are paid for the previous pay period, if they are furloughed or don’t show up for they get paid.


I thought that requires an extra law to be passed, which just has always been done after a shutdown.

The employees here have been formally furloughed thru civil service action. They’re not working, so they’re not getting paid.


My boss hired me for 40 hours a week, if he doesn't have enough or no work for me, he still has to pay me. I committed my workforce to him, he committed to paying me. Sending me home is his call, his responsibility and his financial problem before it becomes mine. And that is the only right way, if I wanted to have that kind of economic risk, I would not be an employee. If he doesnt have enough work for me, he can fire me, when and if it is my turn to be fired, way down the list.
Running out of money is even more clearly his problem, if he wants to fire me because he can't pay me, he has to file for insolvency first. At that point he also wouldn't get to decide if I am fired or not anymore, but some court appointed manager.

Letting people work without intention to pay on time would also open the penal code up, as it is fraud and carries up to five years in prison.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Tugger
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:13 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The employees here have been formally furloughed thru civil service action. They’re not working, so they’re not getting paid.


My boss hired me for 40 hours a week, if he doesn't have enough or no work for me, he still has to pay me. I committed my workforce to him, he committed to paying me. Sending me home is his call, his responsibility and his financial problem before it becomes mine. And that is the only right way, if I wanted to have that kind of economic risk, I would not be an employee. If he doesnt have enough work for me, he can fire me, when and if it is my turn to be fired, way down the list.
Running out of money is even more clearly his problem, if he wants to fire me because he can't pay me, he has to file for insolvency first. At that point he also wouldn't get to decide if I am fired or not anymore, but some court appointed manager.

Letting people work without intention to pay on time would also open the penal code up, as it is fraud and carries up to five years in prison.

Definitely not how it works in the USA. If the boss tells you not to come in, that he is shuttering the operation then it is time to look for a new job. You could sue for damages and lost wages but it would be tough to recover anything except for some of the largest employers with significant assets. And still the likelihood of succeeding would be highly doubtful.

However, it seem that even with your laws that could still happen, just the court appointed manager would have to do it. If there is no revenue and no assets then what is else is there? Or does the state automatically pay out?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
tommy1808
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:30 pm

afcjets wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Every one of those is a Trash Opinion piece with no pointing to the real GDP over 8 years. The first one is from 2012 The washington post is behind a paywall so it can't be verified. The last one is a complete trash piece and ignores gdp and the 2 shutdowns and fiscal cliffs that the GOP led congress sent us to.


I didn’t encounter any paywall on the Washington Post article and it is clearly not an opinion piece, which is why the link shows the subcategory news and it is written by someone they identify as a reporter.


It isn't behind a payroll for me either.

However, you seemed to have missed the graph at the top. The recovery is ONLY the slowest in US history if economic growth remains the same under Trump until 2020. Before that year the US has fared much better under Obama then 1929ff.

Glad to help.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:36 pm

So with the Dems taking control of the House what can we expect to see change?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
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casinterest
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:43 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
So with the Dems taking control of the House what can we expect to see change?

More pressure on the human side of the shutdown.
The Federal workers not working
The park entrance fees not being paid as the parks are shut down
The civilian contractors who are laid off since their support work is not needed while the federal workers are not working.
Workers unable to start jobs since E-Verify is down.

At some point, someone will bring up the fact that there will probably be a huge shortfall in jobs data due to this shutdown and the GOP will look worse and worse for asking 5 billion dollars for their mythical wall, while real people and citizens suffer for their pandering to a very ignorant base about the need for this undefined "Big Beautiful Wall".
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
tommy1808
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:11 pm

Tugger wrote:
Definitely not how it works in the USA.


Yeah, I know. However I don't see how shifting risk to the employee makes any sense, unless an employer would be required by law to share his profits the same way.

However, it seem that even with your laws that could still happen, just the court appointed manager would have to do it. If there is no revenue and no assets then what is else is there?


Yeah, if it is objectively impossible to continue business people can be dismissed. Unless all employees get fired, maybe a smaller operation could work, or keeping profitable departments in a restructuring is viable, he has to fire people after Sozialauswahl, I.e. he has to fire those people first that are most likely to find a new job and are least effected, those without dependants, those with shorter seniority and so on...

Or does the state automatically pay out?

Tugg


Yup..insolvency pay for three month. After that I get my unemployment benefits for 12 month (60% of my average net pay/67% if parent of a kid).
Both are insurances, employers pay 0.09% of their payroll for the first, employer and employee pay 2.5% of the employees gross pay, split 50:50, for the other, mandated by law. Outside of welfare our government doesnt really pay for the social system with tax payers money. The insurances also can't turn a profit, so premiums slide up and down with the economy.

To get the curve back to the topic, the government doesnt have the bankruptcy way out, since it by law it can not go bankrupt. In practice that may be possible, but not over budget disagreements.

So it seriously puzzles me how an entity, government or otherwise, could withhold pay that they obviously objectively could pay whenever they chose to, without a court having a good laugh at that silly idea.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:00 pm

smithbs wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The employees here have been formally furloughed thru civil service action. They’re not working, so they’re not getting paid.


Unless deemed "Essential," in which case they are expected to continue working despite lack of paycheck arriving.


That’s BS, and I know from personal experience, essential workers work and get paid.

GF
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:08 pm

So it seriously puzzles me how an entity, government or otherwise, could withhold pay that they obviously objectively could pay whenever they chose to, without a court having a good laugh at that silly idea.


You work, you get paid, company or Federal government furloughs you, you cease getting paid and go on unemployment which is paid out a employer-contributed fund. These government employees could receive unemployment stipends. It’s just as daft that employers are “hooped” if they don’t have work for the employees but have to pay them.

The Federal workers are not getting paid because the government doesn’t have appropriated funds to pay them. The till is empty.

GF
 
2122M
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:23 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
So it seriously puzzles me how an entity, government or otherwise, could withhold pay that they obviously objectively could pay whenever they chose to, without a court having a good laugh at that silly idea.


You work, you get paid, company or Federal government furloughs you, you cease getting paid and go on unemployment which is paid out a employer-contributed fund. These government employees could receive unemployment stipends. It’s just as daft that employers are “hooped” if they don’t have work for the employees but have to pay them.

The Federal workers are not getting paid because the government doesn’t have appropriated funds to pay them. The till is empty.

GF


The till is not empty. Trump decided to lock the till because he wants to use $5 billion dollars from the till to build a useless vanity project. He's telling these federal workers that he cares more about reckless spending on useless projects then he does about the wellbeing of his employees.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:37 pm

Do you understand the appropriation process? From your comment it doesn’t appear you do. Congress neither passed an appropriation nor a continuing resolution for the 23% of the government’s discretionary spending not appropriated via the two “minibus” bills that were signed into law. That 23% DOES NOT have appropriated funds and can’t by law conducting business.

Trump Does. Not. Own. The. Till., Congress owns the till. The shutdown occurred because the two parties couldn’t come to an agreement. If the Dems compromised, no shutdown, if the Republicans compromised, no shutdown. It’s both parties fault, plain and simple.

GF
 
tommy1808
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:02 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
. It’s just as daft that employers are “hooped” if they don’t have work for the employees but have to pay them.


Nope, it is the only sensible way. Mismanagement is never a justification to breech a contract. If my employer wants the right to send me home without pay because of slow business, him and I can agree on a contract saying so. I will of course not sign it unless I get a premium for that flexibility. He, by his own free choice, decided to give me a fixed 40 hour contract. He has to uphold his end of that deal right into bankruptcy, just like I have to pay my bills until I go bankrupt. Not wanting to pay for flexibility was his choice alone, I, or the government had nothing to do with it. Not letting me go when he could have, and before he runs out of money is also his error, not mine or the government. There are exactly no reasons to allow to weezle out of contractual obligations.

2122M wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
So it seriously puzzles me how an entity, government or otherwise, could withhold pay that they obviously objectively could pay whenever they chose to, without a court having a good laugh at that silly idea.


You work, you get paid, company or Federal government furloughs you, you cease getting paid and go on unemployment which is paid out a employer-contributed fund. These government employees could receive unemployment stipends. It’s just as daft that employers are “hooped” if they don’t have work for the employees but have to pay them.

The Federal workers are not getting paid because the government doesn’t have appropriated funds to pay them. The till is empty.

GF


The till is not empty. Trump decided to lock the till because he wants to use $5 billion dollars from the till to build a useless vanity project. He's telling these federal workers that he cares more about reckless spending on useless projects then he does about the wellbeing of his employees.


Which is quite hilarious, as iirc correctly congress, and congress alone, gets to decide what the federal government has money for and for what they don't, not the president. Any spending bill shall originate in the house. If Trump says "give me 7 billion of I won't sign", any bill bending to his will fails to originate from the house. If "originate" means the same today as it did back then, the resulting spending bill should hence be unconstitutional, shouldn't it?

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:11 pm

Never had a employer who was contractually obligated to pay me including the government here, well, pay in the military is legally an entitlement. Pay in the Civil Service is not an entitlement, as a supervisor, I could refuse to approve a time card and no pay would be authorized. I always stated to my supervisor, “I work at your pleasure, let me know if I’m not doing so and we can part ways. Very happy about that, too.

Now, if you’re taking about early excusal due to transient lack of work, maybe I’d agree, but if the business doesn’t have work, it’s furlough time. They must furlough or close businesses in your country.

He’s threatening a veto, not originating the appropriation bill.

GF
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:07 pm

Look for a follow-on to Hoeven-Corker bill of 2013 which included 700 miles of improved fencing, billions of new spending. Passed with wide Democrat support. Hakeem Jeffries (D-NY) is already talking up “enhanced fencing”. The two parties will log roll the $3 billion gap between Trump and Pelosi into a $30 billion boondoggle that will only sorbs money.

GF
 
bagoldex
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:30 pm

Did everyone enjoy 'Bring Your Skinhead to Work Day' today?

Image

I wonder how many white supremacist and neo-Nazi tattoos are hiding under those cheap suits.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:41 pm

bagoldex wrote:

I wonder how many white supremacist and neo-Nazi tattoos are hiding under those cheap suits.

My guess is none. They are much more likely to be balding.

The problem for liberals is that the demand for Nazis far exceeds the supply.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:59 pm

Exact same number as the ISIS tattoos on Keith Ellison and Nation of Islam tattoos on Maxine Waters.

GF
 
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notaxonrotax
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:03 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
As opposed to the sainted and tainted lying, thieving, philandering, racist Democrats, I suppose? Let’s start with “I did not have sex with that woman” and move to, “if you like your health insurance and your doctor, you can keep them.”

GF


Haha, so you're digging up and old Bill lie.....but you're quite happy with the virtually daily lies from Drumpf and his buddies. Am I warm?
Yes.....(nearly) daily demonstrable lies on the infamous twitter feed; which don't seem to bother you....or so it seems.

There are different levels of being untruthful.....you can not just put an "equals" sign between two lies.
Especially with the vast amount of incorrect statements issued ever since Drumpf took office.

No Tax On Rotax
For anybody that happens to be wondering:"yes, owning your own aircraft is a 100% worth it!"
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:12 pm

They’re ALL Liars, it’s not possible to be a politician and not lie! Every damned one of them, which is why we shouldn’t give them liars ONE bit of our money or any powers over us. Trump is one in the same as the rest of criminals on the Potomac. I’d hope that he’d really disrupt DC, end the spending, the entitlements, the ever expanding administrative state, but he’s in the swamp. Government expands and liberty recedes.

I want the damned thing drowned in Norquist’s bathtub.

GF
 
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Tugger
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:17 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
They’re ALL Liars, it’s not possible to be a politician and not lie! Every damned one of them, which is why we shouldn’t give them liars ONE bit of our money or any powers over us. Government expands and liberty recedes.

What a spectacular failure you would be in life if you had to run or manage anything. At least with the attitude you are displaying.

People lie. We know that. The founders knew that. That is why the government is structured as it is.

But some people lie more than others, lie poorly (leaders often lie and it can be a good thing) or can't work their way out of the lies they have told. The idea is to minimize that, work with what we know to be real and ignore/avoid the obvious bad information. Fact check and data check and test. When that is done things generally go better. Not perfect, but better.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6258
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:22 am

Well, let’s see, I’ve been a supervisor in Civil Service, a military commander, an instructor and examiner pilot, a civilian chief pilot at a large corporation flight department. I’ve commanded over a 1,000 personnel, was a chief of 30 pilots and 4 flight attendants. I led some great people who I let do their job and praised in public. I’ve been begged out of retirement by everyone of them. I’m especially proud of the people I helped grow and promote or send to UPT—several are now Delta, UPS, Jet Blue, and American captains. One lady is at Jet Blue, another replaced me and has been very successful in the job as Chief. Is that enough?

My contempt for the political is well-founded and earned by their cynical abuse of the public. Yes, they lie, many are corrupt, they are in politics for their own interest, not mine.

While I’d agree wholeheartedly with your last paragraph, I’m idealistic and in practice I didn’t lie to those people—it doesn’t work. It’s just that politicians aren’t accountable by any conventional standard—voting being a very poor substitute for real oversight. My wing commander knew me and how my shop was run; I’d answer for it everyday at 9am. My director trusted me because he saw me in action for 9 years in a safety officer position before selecting me to his chief pilot. No, I mean zero, nada, zilch politicians have that kind of review. They answer to a small, influential group known as lobbyists, activists and who represent a small faction of the voters. These lobbyists and activists walk both sides of the street, social engineers and corporate welfare queens. General welfare is not in any of these factions’ interest.

GF
 
bagoldex
Posts: 1027
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:33 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:43 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, let’s see, I’ve been a supervisor in Civil Service, a military commander, an instructor and examiner pilot, a civilian chief pilot at a large corporation flight department. I’ve commanded over a 1,000 personnel, was a chief of 30 pilots and 4 flight attendants. I led some great people who I let do their job and praised in public. I’ve been begged out of retirement by everyone of them. I’m especially proud of the people I helped grow and promote or send to UPT—several are now Delta, UPS, Jet Blue, and American captains. One lady is at Jet Blue, another replaced me and has been very successful in the job as Chief. Is that enough?

GF


Yet you've spent your entire day and many before posting on this message board. Bullshit.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6258
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:44 am

Two local politicians—Ted Kennedy and incoming Ways and Means Chairman, Richie Neal. Teddy was actually impressive at being a politician. I escorted him around base, he looked and listened to junior and senior officials, then gave an off-the-cuff speech that pointed out concerns or questions by name looking at the individual. It was impressive.

Richie Neal is the very definition of an empty suit pursuing his own best interest. Almost thirty years in Congress and not a footprint in the snow. Not one thoughtful idea. I wouldn’t trust him with my five year old lawnmower and he couldn’t balance a checkbook, but he’s now in charge of the budget.

GF
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6258
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:48 am

bagoldex wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, let’s see, I’ve been a supervisor in Civil Service, a military commander, an instructor and examiner pilot, a civilian chief pilot at a large corporation flight department. I’ve commanded over a 1,000 personnel, was a chief of 30 pilots and 4 flight attendants. I led some great people who I let do their job and praised in public. I’ve been begged out of retirement by everyone of them. I’m especially proud of the people I helped grow and promote or send to UPT—several are now Delta, UPS, Jet Blue, and American captains. One lady is at Jet Blue, another replaced me and has been very successful in the job as Chief. Is that enough?

GF


Yet you've spent your entire day and many before posting on this message board. Bullshit.


I said I was RETIRED!
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 8567
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:20 am

I like the irony of the shutdown:

Trump does not want to sign a bill without money for his border wall (which he tweeted has already been paid for by Mexico and built), which means the agencies affected will remain closed or with essential personnel only. The IRS is one of those agencies, which will be able to process tax returns but will not be able to process refunds...which is a thing that Republicans were excited about (John Doe getting a bigger tax refund as a result of the tax cuts).

So while Trump and McConnell hold steady on keeping the government shutdown, the average American won't get to feel the "benefits" (if any) of the tax reform.

Somebody grab the popcorn...this is gonna be good.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:24 am

Meh. Both parties will support a bill to fund the processing of tax refunds.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:55 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, let’s see, I’ve been a supervisor in Civil Service, a military commander, an instructor and examiner pilot, a civilian chief pilot at a large corporation flight department. I’ve commanded over a 1,000 personnel, was a chief of 30 pilots and 4 flight attendants

You forgot to mention being a fighter pilot, a C-5 whiz, a test pilot and having 13,600 hours "flying".

I spent years instructing in the C-5...............
I’ve run several aircraft out of airspeed in the vertical, quickly followed by a face full of Earth. (but never learned a hammerhead turn)
13,600 hours of flying everything from a Cessna 150 to several fighters, the 727, C-5s and a passel of bizjets including some test work.
Slow speed and using the vertical is common in fighter flying.


You sure lay it on thick.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6258
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:42 am

It ain’t bragging if you’ve done it. It’s an aviation site, so aviation experience should count. When posters question other posters experience, knowledge, they expect a background check, but on a.net all kinds blather on without a whit of knowledge or experience.

Tugger speculated I’d make a terrible supervisor, well that’s BS. Salted, if you have actual aviation experience, cite it. If we’re just posting political BS, fine but keep it within the lanes.

GF
 
afcjets
Posts: 3518
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:17 am

Tugger wrote:

Interestingly the article does not lay the problem at President Obama's feet, rather it says:
The problem is that our policymakers have been aggressive, but not radical. The lesson of the 1930s is that you need to be both.


Tugg


Of course not, it’s Obama. Not one tough question from a reporter during 8 years. This WAPO reporter knew how to report it. Never mind Obama was the chief policy maker when he was President, as all Presidents are.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:07 am

trpmb6 wrote:
The dumb thing is these people will all end up getting paid anyways. For work that wasn't completed. Then I bet they end up working OT hours to catch back up wasting more money.

We should stop it with the people being sent home and just make them work all the same. Everyone here knows they're going to get paid. Hell I bet some workers look forward to the extra paid holiday, as long as they can weather a week or two of delayed deposits.


I am also not jealous of people who are in airports or have to cross the US border (like myself - I’ll be flying back to NYC from Canada, where I am for holidays). Generally, the officials at the border are not being paid for their time, and aren’t quite happy. And may get sticky. And, of course, huge lines everywhere since there are fewer of them. Hope my NEXUS (similar to Global Entry) will help.
 
Eyad89
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:47 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:49 am

There is a question that I don't see answered here, is $5 billion enough for the wall that Trump promised? A concrete thick wall that covers such huge grounds for only $5 billion? I am smelling a huge project downgrade to building fences instead, of course in case he gets this amount that is.

Anyway, even a 'beautiful, thick, and concrete' wall is a medieval concept to begin with.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13487
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:50 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
They must furlough or close businesses in your country.


You can only furlough with pay here, you can force your employees to take their paid leave (limited usually to half the legal, 20, or contractual, usually somewhere between 20 and 30 days), but that is about it. When that doesn´t cut it, they can make staff partially unemployed, if staff agrees, every single person with signature, since that is a change in contract that can not be forced upon you. In 2009 for example my company did that for 6 month, we had to work half our hours, got half our pay and half our unemployment benefits, our employer still had to make his full social security contributions, had to arrange for additional skill training for part of the new "free" time, to make finding a new job easier if the company eventually goes under, and he can not fire employees until the situation has objectively worsened under that regime. Win-Win-Win for all around. People don´t lose their jobs, unemployment insurance has to pay less than for "full unemployment" and doesn´t have to cover health insurance and such, and the employer doesn´t lose know how or workforce and reduces costs across the board, while when firing he usually has to fire cheap employees first saving much less. And can be back to 100% with one announcement and no notice-period.

Never had a employer who was contractually obligated to pay me including the government here, well, pay in the military is legally an entitlement. Pay in the Civil Service is not an entitlement,


You signed a contract saying "you have to show up whenever we tell you too, but you have no right to any pay if we don´t"? A sane person would say "thank you very much, if i want to take the risk of running a business, i ran a business and keep the profits too".

If you didn´t have work for your slaves, you still needed to feed, house and clothe them, right? You could sell (=fire) them, but that is about it.... Dazzling how anyone can accept a situation worse than that and be convinced that is right and ok. Its kinda sad to see a country that can be so advanced and progressive, that has a back then truly so revolutionary document at its foundation that even today is merely dusty, yet in so many ways is still stuck 150 years ago......

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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trpmb6
Posts: 3018
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:19 pm

Eyad89 wrote:
There is a question that I don't see answered here, is $5 billion enough for the wall that Trump promised? A concrete thick wall that covers such huge grounds for only $5 billion? I am smelling a huge project downgrade to building fences instead, of course in case he gets this amount that is.

Anyway, even a 'beautiful, thick, and concrete' wall is a medieval concept to begin with.


No, $5 Billion would not be enough to cover a wall across the entire border. Not even close. I'd like to think someone told Trump that was the number they needed to do a specific amount of work in the next budget year, but it's probably just an arbitrary point in the sand to be honest. And despite what some may think, border patrol doesn't actually even want a concrete type barrier (though I suspect they'd take it if they'd build it, it's just far more expensive). Of late they've been bragging about the usefulness of the steel girder approach. Steel columns spaced close enough to prevent passage, but separated enough you can see through. Agents apparently like having the ability to see through, and the steel columns are more structurally significant than a chain link fence for instance.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:21 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Its kinda sad to see a country that can be so advanced and progressive, that has a back then truly so revolutionary document at its foundation that even today is merely dusty, yet in so many ways is still stuck 150 years ago......

best regards
Thomas


And yet, that country succeeded so well in spite of what you perceive to be a great fault of it.
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 8567
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:24 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
No, $5 Billion would not be enough to cover a wall across the entire border. Not even close. I'd like to think someone told Trump that was the number they needed to do a specific amount of work in the next budget year, but it's probably just an arbitrary point in the sand to be honest.

The fact that even Trump can't even make up his mind with how much the wall would cost is evidence that if you give a mouse a cookie he's gonna want a glass of milk.

He went from as low as $5B to as high as $25B during and after the campaign.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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trpmb6
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:37 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
No, $5 Billion would not be enough to cover a wall across the entire border. Not even close. I'd like to think someone told Trump that was the number they needed to do a specific amount of work in the next budget year, but it's probably just an arbitrary point in the sand to be honest.

The fact that even Trump can't even make up his mind with how much the wall would cost is evidence that if you give a mouse a cookie he's gonna want a glass of milk.

He went from as low as $5B to as high as $25B during and after the campaign.


I believe the administration botched this part completely. You've got to have specifics when discussing dollars and cents. You can't just go out and say the $25B would cover both wall and other security measures (including more boots on the ground). You have to say $5 billion covers X miles of Y fencing. Maybe they have done some of this, and I just haven't seen it, or it hasn't been covered. Eitherway, they could have done a much better job explaining what they're wanting to accomplish with $5B.

Also, everyone knows, if you give a moose a muffin, he's going to ask you for some jam.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13487
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:41 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Its kinda sad to see a country that can be so advanced and progressive, that has a back then truly so revolutionary document at its foundation that even today is merely dusty, yet in so many ways is still stuck 150 years ago......

best regards
Thomas


And yet, that country succeeded so well in spite of what you perceive to be a great fault of it.


Yup, the Foundation is THAT good. I also note that plenty of countries surpassed the US in the last 50 years in many categorizes, including near peers growing their economy faster.

No country is perfect, some just screw up a lot the US is not among those, and other slow down progress. In th3 end both have the same effect.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:12 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Yup, the Foundation is THAT good. I also note that plenty of countries surpassed the US in the last 50 years in many categorizes, including near peers growing their economy faster.

That is your sole measurement for the success of our Constitution? Yes, if you come out of a world war caused by a dictator and then eradicate the communism that took over half of your country, you tend to grow your economy faster. And let's not forget a little thing called the Marshall Plan. I wonder where that many came from? Nah... Who cares if they didn't have a Constitution that would have prevented the millions upon millions of deaths and the slaughtering of Jews. Their economy has boomed in the last 50 years!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13487
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:24 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Yup, the Foundation is THAT good. I also note that plenty of countries surpassed the US in the last 50 years in many categorizes, including near peers growing their economy faster.

That is your sole measurement for the success of our Constitution?


No, as clearly stated by what you have quoted.

Nah... Who cares if they didn't have a Constitution that would have prevented the millions upon millions of deaths and the slaughtering of Jews.


I don't see how the US constitution is that much more robust than the Weimar constitution was, and that constitution obviously was useless. It would be it more difficult, sure, but not impossible. The new one, and most other constitutions drafted in democracies since the 2nd world war, included lessons learned from that. For example they don't allow sending ships of refugees back to death camps, or death camps, or war of aggression or even preparing one, or removal of either provision even by a new constitution. And the explicit right to kill anyone that tries.

I call that an improvement, and one obviously build on ideas first found in the US constitution.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
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