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casinterest
Topic Author
Posts: 13952
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:29 pm

The house has passed a plan to reopen government without wall funding . When will the GOP and Trump cave in to get American's back to work, and get the Federal Government back to working for the people of this country?


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 480361002/
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8376
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:55 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
They must furlough or close businesses in your country.


You can only furlough with pay here, you can force your employees to take their paid leave (limited usually to half the legal, 20, or contractual, usually somewhere between 20 and 30 days), but that is about it. When that doesn´t cut it, they can make staff partially unemployed, if staff agrees, every single person with signature, since that is a change in contract that can not be forced upon you. In 2009 for example my company did that for 6 month, we had to work half our hours, got half our pay and half our unemployment benefits, our employer still had to make his full social security contributions, had to arrange for additional skill training for part of the new "free" time, to make finding a new job easier if the company eventually goes under, and he can not fire employees until the situation has objectively worsened under that regime. Win-Win-Win for all around. People don´t lose their jobs, unemployment insurance has to pay less than for "full unemployment" and doesn´t have to cover health insurance and such, and the employer doesn´t lose know how or workforce and reduces costs across the board, while when firing he usually has to fire cheap employees first saving much less. And can be back to 100% with one announcement and no notice-period.

Never had a employer who was contractually obligated to pay me including the government here, well, pay in the military is legally an entitlement. Pay in the Civil Service is not an entitlement,


You signed a contract saying "you have to show up whenever we tell you too, but you have no right to any pay if we don´t"? A sane person would say "thank you very much, if i want to take the risk of running a business, i ran a business and keep the profits too".

If you didn´t have work for your slaves, you still needed to feed, house and clothe them, right? You could sell (=fire) them, but that is about it.... Dazzling how anyone can accept a situation worse than that and be convinced that is right and ok. Its kinda sad to see a country that can be so advanced and progressive, that has a back then truly so revolutionary document at its foundation that even today is merely dusty, yet in so many ways is still stuck 150 years ago......

best regards
Thomas


It’s “at will” employment with some restrictions in some states, it varies. There are no contracts unless you are in a very high-profile position like senior corporate, media stars, sports, etc. Probably 90% of the work force could be laid off by the end of the month without recourse or pay. We’re very flexible.

GF
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:05 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Probably 90% of the work force could be laid off by the end of the month without recourse or pay.

Isn't the employer supposed to pay for work already done if the employee is being laid off involuntarily? It's one thing if the employee is fired...they would forfeit all compensation. But when you're laid off after working without pay, aren't employers legally required to pay them for their time?
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:10 pm

Trump should go to China if he wants a wall built, they know how to make em last ! :rotfl:
 
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casinterest
Topic Author
Posts: 13952
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:12 pm

So it seems Trump is willing to shut down the Government of a 20 Trillion dollar a year economy over a 5 billion dollar request for a border wall that has not been defined.

Is this 5 Billion a kickback to his Russian Loan shark buddies?
 
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VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:18 pm

casinterest wrote:
So it seems Trump is willing to shut down the Government of a 20 Trillion dollar a year economy over a 5 billion dollar request for a border wall that has not been defined.

That argument is a two way street. The reality is that both sides have drawn lines in the sand and neither side appears to be willing to budge.

casinterest wrote:
Is this 5 Billion a kickback to his Russian Loan shark buddies?

No, but you knew that.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3612
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:20 pm

casinterest wrote:
So it seems Trump is willing to shut down the Government of a 20 Trillion dollar a year economy over a 5 billion dollar request for a border wall that has not been defined.


More like requesting money from US taxpayers for something that Mexico is suppose to pay for. When did US taxpayer become Mexico?
 
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VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:27 pm

Rather than working to try to end the shutdown, here is what the Democrats have been up to during their first day in control of the House:

Saying that President Trump is Adolf Hitler.
- Rep. Hank Johnson

Saying, "We're gonna impeach the mother fucker!"
- Rep. Rashida Tlaib

Introducing articles of impeachment against Trump.
- Rep. Sherman

Introducing a bill to abolish the electoral college.
- Rep. Cohen

Politics are toxic right now and both parties need to take a long look in the mirror.
 
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casinterest
Topic Author
Posts: 13952
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:34 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Rather than working to try to end the shutdown, here is what the Democrats have been up to during their first day in control of the House:

Saying that President Trump is Adolf Hitler.
- Rep. Hank Johnson

Saying, "We're gonna impeach the mother fucker!"
- Rep. Rashida Tlaib

Introducing articles of impeachment against Trump.
- Rep. Sherman

Introducing a bill to abolish the electoral college.
- Rep. Cohen

Politics are toxic right now and both parties need to take a long look in the mirror.


It's not about parties. It is about the idiots we elect. Those that vote party over issues are the toxicity of this country.
 
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casinterest
Topic Author
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:51 pm

Looks like the TSA is starting to have some "Sick" issues. Happy Travels all.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/04/politics ... index.html
 
zakuivcustom
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Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:56 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Rather than working to try to end the shutdown, here is what the Democrats have been up to during their first day in control of the House:

Saying that President Trump is Adolf Hitler.
- Rep. Hank Johnson

Saying, "We're gonna impeach the mother fucker!"
- Rep. Rashida Tlaib

Introducing articles of impeachment against Trump.
- Rep. Sherman

Introducing a bill to abolish the electoral college.
- Rep. Cohen

Politics are toxic right now and both parties need to take a long look in the mirror.


Let see...
1. How is Dems not working to end the shutdown? They did their part already.
2. All of a sudden calling Individual-1 m*********** is bad. But hey, it's alright (and actually being praised) if he just speak his mind b/c that's suppose to be good.
3. Now, I do admit, those "progressives" can be fairly toxic. But they're elected for a reason - and that's what people electing them want their representatives to do.

It's definitely VERY ugly times anyway. Meanwhile, federal workers are being held hostage (as usual...oh, and they didn't even get a pay raise this year), nothing in gov't is getting done, and we all know that if Dems didn't get the house, we would have just kick the can down the road anyway.

Oh, and again, Mexico is suppose to pay for everything.
 
2122M
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:16 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Rather than working to try to end the shutdown, here is what the Democrats have been up to during their first day in control of the House:

Saying that President Trump is Adolf Hitler.
- Rep. Hank Johnson

Saying, "We're gonna impeach the mother fucker!"
- Rep. Rashida Tlaib

Introducing articles of impeachment against Trump.
- Rep. Sherman

Introducing a bill to abolish the electoral college.
- Rep. Cohen

Politics are toxic right now and both parties need to take a long look in the mirror.


This is obviously a ridiculous thing to say. Democrats can walk and chew gum, and if you are even paying a tiny bit of attention you would know that the House just passed a bill to end the shutdown, one that mirrored the GOP bill that passed the house and senate before the break. Pelosi met with Trump today to discuss the shutdown too. Saying they aren't working to end the shutdown simply not true.

I must say, you continue to be very bad at being a 'moderate'....
 
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smithbs
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:20 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
smithbs wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The employees here have been formally furloughed thru civil service action. They’re not working, so they’re not getting paid.


Unless deemed "Essential," in which case they are expected to continue working despite lack of paycheck arriving.


That’s BS, and I know from personal experience, essential workers work and get paid.

GF


That's nice. Please call up my sister with essential status at DHS and let her know that her paycheck really is coming after all.
 
2122M
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:30 pm

In an effort to keep America safe, Trump has temporarily de-funded the TSA. Now hundreds of airport security officers have decided not to come in to work. Trump has threatened to extend this shutdown for months, so I imagine they are all staying home to update their resumes and look for a reliable employer with a sane boss.

So Much Winning!

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/04/politics ... index.html
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3612
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:04 pm

smithbs wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
smithbs wrote:

Unless deemed "Essential," in which case they are expected to continue working despite lack of paycheck arriving.


That’s BS, and I know from personal experience, essential workers work and get paid.

GF


That's nice. Please call up my sister with essential status at DHS and let her know that her paycheck really is coming after all.


Come on...she should just do her job as it's "higher purpose" than that paycheck anyway. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/ ... se-1081758

I can't wait until everyone in Secret Service calls it quit a give a middle finger to Individual-1. Oh, and he better find his own way down to Mar-a-Lago.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:15 pm

So my question is: at what point does a state declare independence? When most of the military has walked off the job and there's nobody to stop them?
 
Flighty
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:53 pm

So far, this is playing into Trump's hands. This is happening on his terms and he will be in office anywhere from 2 to 6 more years. I would much rather see legislators shout and bicker at the president, and vice versa,than see the US start a war. There is nothing wrong with vitriolic argument. We are lucky we have the privilege to do that, and anyway, this bickering is what we voted for.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:28 am

VTKillarney wrote:
Rather than working to try to end the shutdown

You probably missed (or ignored) the two bills that allowed for the government to reopen (funding all agencies except DHS through the end of the fiscal year, and funding DHS until next month). Interesting that the Senate had no issue passing the same package last month...why is it an issue now?

VTKillarney wrote:
Saying, "We're gonna impeach the mother fucker!"
- Rep. Rashida Tlaib

As the fierce moderate you call yourself, you should apply the same standard people apply to Trump (i.e. this is locker-room talk). To get respect, you need to earn respect. You can respect the office but not have to respect the man...especially when the man acts on behalf of the office instead of himself.

VTKillarney wrote:
Introducing articles of impeachment against Trump.
- Rep. Sherman

This is gonna go nowhere fast, but it mirrors Tea Party Republicans when they attempted to repeal the ACA in the face of a Democratic-led Senate and a veto from Obama...or when they would talk about impeachment for anything they could fancy.

DocLightning wrote:
When most of the military has walked off the job and there's nobody to stop them?
Defense is fully funded for the year so if troops are needed, they will be paid. Let's revisit the argument if, for some reason, the government is still shutdown in September or if the DoD runs out of funds faster than expected, though it would be interesting if DoD runs out of funds and Trump keeps the agency hostage because he doesn't have the wall that apparently has already been built and paid by Mexico through the USMCA deal that has yet to come into effect.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:41 am

Definitely different than the Clinton/Gringrich shutdowns. I laid off two civilians as “non-essential” in two shutdowns, but “essential” employees (all military technicians) were paid without a break. I can easily agree with being required to work without pay is wrong and possibly illegal.

People talking out their rear orifice (you’re excused from future colonoscopy procedures) need to read OPM guidance on furloughs:

https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/furlough-guidance/guidance-for-shutdown-furloughs.pdf

Wait, did a taliban get seated in Congress? The terrorists won!

GF
 
ltbewr
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:54 am

As others have posted, TSA staff are calling in sick at 2-3 times normal rates as not being paid, cannot afford to pay their bills or for child care, need to take some side job so have income to survive and pay bills. That means remaining staff are working OT without pay and more will sick out at even higher rates. That also means staff not able or willing to do their jobs 100%, increasing the public's dislike of the TSA, and possible breaches of security with potential devastating results.

The IRS won't be paying out refunds or they will be delayed. That will severely hurt many millions of poor and middle class persons, especially those who need those refunds in the $100's to a few $1000 to pay debts and taking away money from needs, some businesses in poor areas will be hurt by the delayed monies.

Businesses near National Parks will be hurt as visitors cannot enter them.

Trump is willing - per his sick comments today - to have the partial shutdown last 'months or years' until he gets his funding. At some point he or the Democrats will have to give in on the wall funding. Maybe it will take an airplane blown out of the sky or riots by poor people who need their IRS refunds or even small and big business owners or shareholder seeing this stalemate hurting their incomes - them maybe this stalemate will end. Who will blink first.
 
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seb146
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:23 am

Flighty wrote:
So far, this is playing into Trump's hands. This is happening on his terms and he will be in office anywhere from 2 to 6 more years. I would much rather see legislators shout and bicker at the president, and vice versa,than see the US start a war. There is nothing wrong with vitriolic argument. We are lucky we have the privilege to do that, and anyway, this bickering is what we voted for.


Individual #1 and right wing pundits are hoping their low information base will be the only ones voting in the next elections. Fat chance. Those of us who actually research and get our information from more than one source know for a fact that Democrats are working to get Americans back to work and stop this Republicans/orange man shut down.

The orange one keeps wanting to be the only one to solve all the nation's problems but refuses to take responsibility when he creates problems. And many people are seeing that now. Including some Republicans. And that will carry into 2020 and divide the Republican party. If individual #1 does not leave office before then.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:29 am

If the Democrats wanted people to get paid they’d fund $5 billion toward the wall. It’s as simple as that.
 
2122M
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:25 am

VTKillarney wrote:
If the Democrats wanted people to get paid they’d fund $5 billion toward the wall. It’s as simple as that.


If Trumps wants his people to get paid, he’d sign the bills that we’re past to fund the government, it’s as simple as that.

What’s getting lost in all this is that simple fact the THE WALL IS A POINTLESS WASTE OF MONEY!

Drugs are coming in through commercial points of entry, most illegal immigrants enter on legal visas and over stay, and most of the people that come across the border report immediately to border patrol to request asylum anyway. It’s a total and complete waste. A $5 Billion dollar foolish promise that can be defeated by a ladder or tunnel. In the meantime, the shutdown actually encourages illegal immigration since the immigration courts are unable to operate properly until the shutdown is over. People that are trying to do it legally can’t until Trump admits defeat.

Conservatives have completely lost the ability to call themselves fiscally conservative and this is proof.
 
A3801000
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:33 am

VTKillarney wrote:
If the Democrats wanted people to get paid they’d fund $5 billion toward the wall. It’s as simple as that.


Next month you might have to buy Ivanka a pony or he will shutdown the government again.
This isn't about making America safe, he is just blackmailing the population in the hopes his base sees him as the tough guy. He would come up with some other nonsense soon again and try to use the same technic if it works now for him.
 
anrec80
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:38 am

VTKillarney wrote:
If the Democrats wanted people to get paid they’d fund $5 billion toward the wall. It’s as simple as that.


It's nowhere as simple as that. For Democrats, these migrants and matters around "helping them" are potential voters and grounds for voter base increase, visibility, attention to them. Illegal migration can't be in USA's interests, obviously. It's not a good thing to have people in this country roaming free about whom nobody knows anything about. And - they still use social services - welfare, education for kids, Medicaid, etc. I do support the position of Trump that "USA border may be crossed only legally". But Democrats put their own interests of getting elected ahead of these basic interests of any nation (not just the US), and it's truly unfortunate.
Last edited by anrec80 on Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:38 am

He’s your President. If you want people paid then fund the wall.
 
anrec80
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:42 am

2122M wrote:
most of the people that come across the border report immediately to border patrol to request asylum anyway. It’s a total and complete waste.

The wall will stop a bulk of those.

2122M wrote:
A $5 Billion dollar foolish promise that can be defeated by a ladder or tunnel.


But this also makes committing the crime more costly, and you can't push crowds of people through the tunnel. Generally these tunnels are also found eventually.
 
2122M
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:43 am

VTKillarney wrote:
He’s your President. If you want people paid then fund the wall.


You don’t really get the whole “Checks and Balances” thing do you. He’s not the King, or a dictator.
 
2122M
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:50 am

anrec80 wrote:
2122M wrote:
most of the people that come across the border report immediately to border patrol to request asylum anyway. It’s a total and complete waste.

The wall will stop a bulk of those.

2122M wrote:
A $5 Billion dollar foolish promise that can be defeated by a ladder or tunnel.


But this also makes committing the crime more costly, and you can't push crowds of people through the tunnel. Generally these tunnels are also found eventually.


So it’s good that you can admit you want to end ALL immigrants, not just illegal immigration. You see, it is 100% legal to cross the border and request asylum.

I want to see a study. If the wall had been built 10 years ago, how many fewer immigrants would be in the US illegally. I’m positive the answer to that question would weaken Trump’s already weak case...
 
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Aesma
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:54 am

The whole situation is ridiculous, and great for dictators around the world to show how broken democracy is as a system, but I can't wrap my head around the fact that the people causing this are getting paid by federal coffers. Why aren't they the first ones losing a paycheck ?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:04 am

2122M wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
2122M wrote:
most of the people that come across the border report immediately to border patrol to request asylum anyway. It’s a total and complete waste.

The wall will stop a bulk of those.

2122M wrote:
A $5 Billion dollar foolish promise that can be defeated by a ladder or tunnel.


But this also makes committing the crime more costly, and you can't push crowds of people through the tunnel. Generally these tunnels are also found eventually.


So it’s good that you can admit you want to end ALL immigrants, not just illegal immigration. You see, it is 100% legal to cross the border and request asylum.

I want to see a study. If the wall had been built 10 years ago, how many fewer immigrants would be in the US illegally. I’m positive the answer to that question would weaken Trump’s already weak case...


Done and dusted and passed by bipartisan vote.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Fence_Act_of_2006

If I hove up at LHR or CDG or FRA, could I seek asylum?

GF
 
2122M
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:11 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
2122M wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
The wall will stop a bulk of those.



But this also makes committing the crime more costly, and you can't push crowds of people through the tunnel. Generally these tunnels are also found eventually.


So it’s good that you can admit you want to end ALL immigrants, not just illegal immigration. You see, it is 100% legal to cross the border and request asylum.

I want to see a study. If the wall had been built 10 years ago, how many fewer immigrants would be in the US illegally. I’m positive the answer to that question would weaken Trump’s already weak case...


Done and dusted and passed by bipartisan vote.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Fence_Act_of_2006

If I hove up at LHR or CDG or FRA, could I seek asylum?

GF


What is the point of your post. Because you are either proving that the wall won’t work because we already tried it, or that we already have fences at the necessary places, so why are we building more... articulate your point because I have no idea what you are trying to prove...

And I’m not sure what European asylum laws have to do with this.... I’m sure you could go seek asylum there, but it’s irrelevant to this conversation.
 
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moo
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:30 am

Aesma wrote:
The whole situation is ridiculous, and great for dictators around the world to show how broken democracy is as a system, but I can't wrap my head around the fact that the people causing this are getting paid by federal coffers. Why aren't they the first ones losing a paycheck ?


How is "democracy" in general broken because of this?

Many other countries get along fine without having shutdowns - I can't recall the last time the UK had a government shutdown because the annual budget was rejected by Parliament... infact, I don't know if it's ever actually happened!

All this indicates is that US politics is broken - but we knew that already.
 
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Aesma
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:37 am

You mean dictators would be honest and talk about the well functioning democracies, instead of pointing fingers at the US ? Same US that will be giving them lessons on democracy, BTW.
 
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moo
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:49 am

Aesma wrote:
You mean dictators would be honest and talk about the well functioning democracies, instead of pointing fingers at the US ? Same US that will be giving them lessons on democracy, BTW.


Are you trying to say that dictators need a valid example to use in order to lie to their citizens...? Seems like a straw man argument to me...
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3612
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:10 am

moo wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The whole situation is ridiculous, and great for dictators around the world to show how broken democracy is as a system, but I can't wrap my head around the fact that the people causing this are getting paid by federal coffers. Why aren't they the first ones losing a paycheck ?


How is "democracy" in general broken because of this?

Many other countries get along fine without having shutdowns - I can't recall the last time the UK had a government shutdown because the annual budget was rejected by Parliament... infact, I don't know if it's ever actually happened!

All this indicates is that US politics is broken - but we knew that already.


Doesn't have to be a shutdown, though. Just use your UK example, look at Brexit talk. Nope, going nowhere and keep looping around and around avoiding hard reality.

What Aesma stated I've seen before on Chinese forums - basically argument about how so-call democracy = nothing gets done, a bunch of people arguing and being non-productive, and for that matter, democracy is not even necessarily a good thing b/c even idiots like Individual-1 can become president (Their word, not mine). Of course, do they have any understanding of US system? I would say no.

2122M wrote:
What’s getting lost in all this is that simple fact the THE WALL IS A POINTLESS WASTE OF MONEY!


No, what's lost in all this is that Mexico is suppose to pay for the wall.

It's all about psychology anyway - all those Drumpfster feel "safer" in their little safe space if we're going to build a wall (and it HAS to be a wall, not a fence, not electronic surveillance) b/c somehow US is getting invaded (Which, as everyone knows, true invaders don't go around and invite all the media attention and tell everyone that "we're coming for your border", i.e. those "caravan" BS). Oh, and are they going to wall off the coastline also? B/c there are certainly people that comes from the sea instead. And meanwhile, CG got their funding slash, there are not nearly enough people on Border Patrol, and we're wasting money on a stupid wall that can be bypassed.
 
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seb146
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:38 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
2122M wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
The wall will stop a bulk of those.



But this also makes committing the crime more costly, and you can't push crowds of people through the tunnel. Generally these tunnels are also found eventually.


So it’s good that you can admit you want to end ALL immigrants, not just illegal immigration. You see, it is 100% legal to cross the border and request asylum.

I want to see a study. If the wall had been built 10 years ago, how many fewer immigrants would be in the US illegally. I’m positive the answer to that question would weaken Trump’s already weak case...


Done and dusted and passed by bipartisan vote.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Fence_Act_of_2006

If I hove up at LHR or CDG or FRA, could I seek asylum?

GF


You seriously compare the law in UK and Germany and France to United States? You want a wall built between United States and Mexico and cite laws in the EU. Maybe you should brush up on United States immigration and asylum laws in the United States before you start debating.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:50 am

2122M wrote:
So it’s good that you can admit you want to end ALL immigrants, not just illegal immigration. You see, it is 100% legal to cross the border and request asylum.
I want to see a study. If the wall had been built 10 years ago, how many fewer immigrants would be in the US illegally. I’m positive the answer to that question would weaken Trump’s already weak case...


I am not saying to end ALL migration, no. But - 2 things here:
a) in order to seek asylum, one must have crossed the border LEGALLY. You don't begin life in a new place by breaking the law. And - of course you have to distinguish true asylum seeker with just an economic or welfare-seeking migrant. Overwhelming majority of "asylum seekers" are the latter, to be honest with you. Whole Western Europe migration crisis is one big evidence to this - almost nobody from these migrants wants to seek any asylum in Baltic States, Poland. They all want to Germany or France, even though asylum criteria are about the same across all the EU.

b) We don't need all and every migrant, no. We need educated and skilled migrants, who would be an employed, paying taxes, contributing to society and their community, as opposed to being yet another low income person or family, and social assistance recipient. I know such migrants aren't easy to come by lately - such people generally are well settled in their homeland, and it will take a lot to move them. More than most U.S. employers are willing and able to offer.
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:09 am

anrec80 wrote:
2122M wrote:
So it’s good that you can admit you want to end ALL immigrants, not just illegal immigration. You see, it is 100% legal to cross the border and request asylum.
I want to see a study. If the wall had been built 10 years ago, how many fewer immigrants would be in the US illegally. I’m positive the answer to that question would weaken Trump’s already weak case...


I am not saying to end ALL migration, no. But - 2 things here:
a) in order to seek asylum, one must have crossed the border LEGALLY. You don't begin life in a new place by breaking the law. And - of course you have to distinguish true asylum seeker with just an economic or welfare-seeking migrant. Overwhelming majority of "asylum seekers" are the latter, to be honest with you. Whole Western Europe migration crisis is one big evidence to this - almost nobody from these migrants wants to seek any asylum in Baltic States, Poland. They all want to Germany or France, even though asylum criteria are about the same across all the EU.

b) We don't need all and every migrant, no. We need educated and skilled migrants, who would be an employed, paying taxes, contributing to society and their community, as opposed to being yet another low income person or family, and social assistance recipient. I know such migrants aren't easy to come by lately - such people generally are well settled in their homeland, and it will take a lot to move them. More than most U.S. employers are willing and able to offer.


Why is this hard for you to understand: Crossing the border and immediately surrendering to Border Patrol is a LEGAL process to seek asylum. That is not considered illegal immigration.

And it’s great you want the rest of the worlds best and brightest to come to the US, but offering work visas and accepting refugees/asylum seekers are 2 completely different issues. If want to talk about changing work visa requirements then start a new thread. This is about opening our doors and resources to help the less fortunate escape the gang violence riddled nations they are from to help them find security here in America. And if you think most of these immigrants come here to be lazy and leach the system, you simply not paying attention or seeking out facts. In fact, that is why all the migrants in Europe try to reach Germany/France/UK. There are more work opportunities for them in the more successful nations.

And finally, if you want to make sure we are weeding out those that are attempting to abuse the system, shutting down the government and handcuffing the immigration court system is by far the worst thing you can do.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3612
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:41 am

anrec80 wrote:
b) We don't need all and every migrant, no. We need educated and skilled migrants, who would be an employed, paying taxes, contributing to society and their community, as opposed to being yet another low income person or family, and social assistance recipient. I know such migrants aren't easy to come by lately - such people generally are well settled in their homeland, and it will take a lot to move them. More than most U.S. employers are willing and able to offer.


Umm...go through the legal immigration process even ONCE, just ONCE, like I just did (not for myself, although my family went through that 15-20 years ago), and you'll realized:
1. It's actually a pain for anyone requiring assistance to legally immigrate to US. Yes, this include all those BS "chain migration" that takes what? 10 years on average?
2. There ARE already special incentives to get the best and brightest from other countries. They even got a separate queue, nor they count towards the artificial quota limit
3. What "social assistance recipient". Seriously, if they're "stealing" all the American jobs, somehow they don't "contribute" to society and just leech the system? Ok, maybe they're being exploited as cheap labors and actually has to get gov't assistance just to survived? Fine, make the gov't passed law to actually make sure people get pay a "living wage". Oops, forgot that all these businesses (that at least according to R's are definitely not Democrats) hires those cheap labors b/c they're, well, cheap.
3a. Many of the asylum seekers are definitely "economic migrants", b/c even the lowest of lowest job in US pay better than one in, let say, El Salvador or Honduras, if they can even find work there. But hey, all these migrants working their ass off, get pennies in American standards, actually still has to pay tax (income, sales, etc.), and somehow all they do is leech off the system.
4. And like 2122M said - crossing the border and surrendering and claim asylum is the current laws of the land. Don't like it? Change that law instead of just claiming how everyone is a lawbreakers. More than likely those asylum won't be granted, but doesn't mean they shouldn't try.
5. Oh, and again, why do we even need a wall. Look at the so-call "invasion" by "caravan", what invasion? You mean getting stopped at the border, WITHOUT THE WALL?
 
afcjets
Posts: 3832
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:58 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
Saying, "We're gonna impeach the mother fucker!"
- Rep. Rashida Tlaib

As the fierce moderate you call yourself, you should apply the same standard people apply to Trump (i.e. this is locker-room talk).


A private conversation between two men having nothing to do with politics and where neither is an elected official or even candidate is different than a newly elected House member saying in public what she is going to do on the job.
 
afcjets
Posts: 3832
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:06 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
Oh, and again, why do we even need a wall. Look at the so-call "invasion" by "caravan", what invasion? You mean getting stopped at the border, WITHOUT THE WALL?


Can you not see how it would be easier for an individual to sneak across the border than a caravan of people who are being followed by international news cameras for thousands of miles and aired nightly on television?
 
bennett123
Posts: 10869
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:57 am

Anrec80

You say why not seek asylum in Poland and Baltic States.

Most asylum seekers come from the South and South East of the EU.

Why would you think they would turn up in Poland.
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:52 am

2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
He’s your President. If you want people paid then fund the wall.


You don’t really get the whole “Checks and Balances” thing do you. He’s not the King, or a dictator.

And Pelosi is not the Queen. See how this works?
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2885
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:53 am

bennett123 wrote:
Why would you think they would turn up in Poland.


Well, once they've made through the border most arriving from the SE continue north via Germany. As they make their way north, it's simply a question of turning right or left or continuing straight ahead. Left leads to France, the UK and BeNeLux, straight ahead leads to Scandinavia, and right leads to Eastern Europe. It is indeed telling, how few chose to turn right. In fact, the vast majority chose not to move at all having made it to Germany, despite the latter only having outside-EU borders in the North and Baltic Seas.

The overwhelming majority of refugees are making the journey for economic reasons. It is, perhaps, a good indication of the dangers they're allegedly fleeing from, that a large number of European airports see flights to e.g. Baghdad or Mogadishu on a nearly daily basis. They're full of 'refugees' going home on vacation, and has reached a point were a large number of arriving flights carrying passenger, whether on a direct or via-via routing, from e.g. Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. are met by social services. And a not inordinate amount of them turn out to have been home for a few weeks, despite the fact they're residents on an asylum basis, having reached that status by claiming they were persecuted in their homeland. Don't know about you, but that doesn't quite add up in my book.
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:53 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
He’s your President. If you want people paid then fund the wall.


You don’t really get the whole “Checks and Balances” thing do you. He’s not the King, or a dictator.

And Pelosi is not the Queen. See how this works?


Hence the rest of the post (you did read the whole post, right?)

A) Trump is not the king

And...

B) The wall is a terrible idea

That is why there have been bills passed by both chambers to move past this absurd, pointless fence. And let’s be honest, if Trump really thought this was a national emergency and that the fence was vital to our security, why the hell didn’t he do anything about when the GOP controlled both chambers?
 
neutronstar73
Posts: 805
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:57 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:14 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
If the Democrats wanted people to get paid they’d fund $5 billion toward the wall. It’s as simple as that.


That's just patently dumb. Congratulations.

Pop quiz, Hot Shot. Trump hasn't even spent the money he's been allocated for border security. Why not?

Bonus question: Trump PROMISED Mexico would pay for the wall. "Believe me," he said. Why is it the responsibility of Americans to now pay for Trump's campaign promise?

Part 2 of Bonus: GOP controlled Congress for two years. Why didn't they fund it when they had complete control of both houses of Congress, the Presidency, and, heck, most state house legislatures?
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:17 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Anrec80

You say why not seek asylum in Poland and Baltic States.

Most asylum seekers come from the South and South East of the EU.

Why would you think they would turn up in Poland.


Isn’t it clear from my previous post? Because Poland does not have any welfare programs, obviously. In Poland all they get is a work permit, and some help in finding some basic work on farms. Certainly not language courses or welfare. And this is how it should be. But these “refugees” aren’t moving to Europe for that, clearly.
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:33 pm

anrec80 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Anrec80

You say why not seek asylum in Poland and Baltic States.

Most asylum seekers come from the South and South East of the EU.

Why would you think they would turn up in Poland.


Isn’t it clear from my previous post? Because Poland does not have any welfare programs, obviously. In Poland all they get is a work permit, and some help in finding some basic work on farms. Certainly not language courses or welfare. And this is how it should be. But these “refugees” aren’t moving to Europe for that, clearly.


So they have better opportunities for healthcare and better jobs In Germany. And you want to hold it against them for getting there?

And despite all that social welfare, Germany ran a budget surplus is 2017, whereas Poland finished the year in the red.

Also, I love how you paint language learning courses as this big negative, but the right is always demanding that refugees assimilate. Well they are not going to assimilate in Poland where they are given a low paying job and no other assistance. Doesn’t take a stable genius to see that.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:42 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
And Pelosi is not the Queen. See how this works?

Ah, the Tu Quoque fallacy. The right's second favorite argument (after the Hillary argument).
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