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anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:57 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Umm...go through the legal immigration process even ONCE, just ONCE, like I just did (not for myself, although my family went through that 15-20 years ago), and you'll realized:


I’ve migrated twice, including once to the USA. And have grounds to believe that I’ve seen a thing or two about migration, types of migrant, migrant communities, and things related to them.

zakuivcustom wrote:
1. It's actually a pain for anyone requiring assistance to legally immigrate to US. Yes, this include all those BS "chain migration" that takes what? 10 years on average?

May be dependent on a country of origin, but nowhere close. Months to a year plus is more common. And - often people bring parents or relatives and put them on Section 8, food stamps, Medicaid, and those are expensive things, especially elderly care. I believe we need a much stronger legislature here, requiring, for example, verification of ability of the kids to support the parents. Does he have enough income to support them? Pay full Medicare premiums? Non-cancellable fully paid long-term-care policy upfront please. If you can’t afford that - you better off supporting your parents wherever they are. In Canada in fact they do similar things - immigration policies there are much stricter than those in the USA.

zakuivcustom wrote:
2. There ARE already special incentives to get the best and brightest from other countries. They even got a separate queue, nor they count towards the artificial quota limit


They do have a quota, but it’s almost never exhausted. True, there is separate queue, but that’s about it.

zakuivcustom wrote:
3. What "social assistance recipient". Seriously, if they're "stealing" all the American jobs, somehow they don't "contribute" to society and just leech the system? Ok, maybe they're being exploited as cheap labors and actually has to get gov't assistance just to survived? Fine, make the gov't passed law to actually make sure people get pay a "living wage".


This is what I am saying - if you don’t know how you will be making a living wage in the USA and what does it take - it’s better for everyone if you don’t come here. Or - if it does not work out, you should go back, it’s OK. Immigration is not for everyone. Each migrant should know to not burn the bridges with their homeland prematurely.

zakuivcustom wrote:
Oops, forgot that all these businesses (that at least according to R's are definitely not Democrats) hires those cheap labors b/c they're, well, cheap.


If you think traditional American businesses a-la Walmart are “unclean”, you need to see what’s going on in migrant communities. It’s far from uncommon there to work for cash, and collect Section 8, welfare, Medicaid. Cash employers even help their employees get all that. And the worst - those people don’t integrate and improve their English (“we don’t go out to America”). Of course it’s easy for smart-ass previous generation of migrants to take advantage of them. I certainly believe that this situation needs to be dealt with - “employers” should be prosecuted, and the “employees” should be said - “Sorry, this did not work out. It’s better if you go back where you came from”.

zakuivcustom wrote:
Many of the asylum seekers are definitely "economic migrants", b/c even the lowest of lowest job in US pay better than one in, let say, El Salvador or Honduras, if they can even find work there. But hey, all these migrants working their ass off, get pennies in American standards, actually still has to pay tax (income, sales, etc.), and somehow all they do is leech off the system.


First, not all these migrants obviously. How many of European migrants are actually legally and gainfully employed? Less than 1%.

Second - if you are from elsewhere then you probably know that absolute wage amount in itself is meaningless. With American taxes and typical expenditures you need about $2500/mo in a lower-cost-of-living area for rather basic independent living (and that’s if your home is paid for). In other emerging countries - with utility bills and transit being in $50/mo range, zero taxes you can maintain comparable living standard with $300/mo (Russia, Ukraine). We are talking about basic needs covered plus a goodie here and there (a restaurant dinner, a trip to a resort every couple years). There are many other places in South America where they can also help themselves.

5. Oh, and again, why do we even need a wall. Look at the so-call "invasion" by "caravan", what invasion? You mean getting stopped at the border, WITHOUT THE WALL?[/quote]
They have been stopped for now, but they will come back, and without the wall one-by-one they will be inside this country via other places. They aren’t going back obviously.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6327
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:28 pm

2122M wrote:
Well they are not going to assimilate in Poland where they are given a low paying job and no other assistance. Doesn’t take a stable genius to see that.

For obvious reasons, I would not take one word seriously from a Russian troll planted in the US when it comes to Poland.
That being said assimilation or integration has been a stellar success in Germany, UK, France (the country of never-ending state of emergency), Belgium or Sweden, despite all the money spent, has it not?
Also, for some reason, the narrative in today's EU is, that only muslim migration is the one that counts. Poland has successfully absorbed hundreds od thousands of refugees/migrants from Ukraine, yet it doesn't really matter because they are white and not muslim.
Last but certainly not the least. Why would someone from say Pakistan, Nigeria, Morocco or Turkey settle in Poland or Hungary or anywhere else in V4 or the Baltics, when they have many millions-strong community and parallel societies of their own in the UK, France, Belgium or Germany where they don't have to integrate at all... in fact if they wait for a while the indigenous population of said countries will be the ones who will have to reintegrate in their own country http://www.pewforum.org/2017/11/29/euro ... opulation/
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3612
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:31 pm

anrec80 wrote:
May be dependent on a country of origin, but nowhere close. Months to a year plus is more common. And - often people bring parents or relatives and put them on Section 8, food stamps, Medicaid, and those are expensive things, especially elderly care. I believe we need a much stronger legislature here, requiring, for example, verification of ability of the kids to support the parents. Does he have enough income to support them? Pay full Medicare premiums? Non-cancellable fully paid long-term-care policy upfront please. If you can’t afford that - you better off supporting your parents wherever they are. In Canada in fact they do similar things - immigration policies there are much stricter than those in the USA.


(Just random guess) You're from Western Europe, right? If that's the case, of course those takes no time - b/c those quotas never get fills up.

Good luck getting anyone that's not a spouse to US in a year from China, India, or Mexico.

anrec80 wrote:
If you think traditional American businesses a-la Walmart are “unclean”, you need to see what’s going on in migrant communities. It’s far from uncommon there to work for cash, and collect Section 8, welfare, Medicaid. Cash employers even help their employees get all that. And the worst - those people don’t integrate and improve their English (“we don’t go out to America”). Of course it’s easy for smart-ass previous generation of migrants to take advantage of them. I certainly believe that this situation needs to be dealt with - “employers” should be prosecuted, and the “employees” should be said - “Sorry, this did not work out. It’s better if you go back where you came from”.


And I don't disagree about prosecuting employers.

And come on, I'm Chinese, of course I know all about cash businesses and illegal labors (Most of them are also for tax evasion anyway - you wonder why so many Chinese business accept cash only? No, it's not just b/c they're too cheap to pay that 3% to Visa/Mastercard (although that's part of the equation also)).

anrec80 wrote:
Second - if you are from elsewhere then you probably know that absolute wage amount in itself is meaningless. With American taxes and typical expenditures you need about $2500/mo in a lower-cost-of-living area for rather basic independent living (and that’s if your home is paid for). In other emerging countries - with utility bills and transit being in $50/mo range, zero taxes you can maintain comparable living standard with $300/mo (Russia, Ukraine). We are talking about basic needs covered plus a goodie here and there (a restaurant dinner, a trip to a resort every couple years). There are many other places in South America where they can also help themselves.


Well, to be really fair, illegal immigration is not a US only problem anyway. Every single richer countries has that problem. Like, well, Mexico.

P.S. I'm actually anti-illegal immigration. I just don't think the wall is the solution, and is realistic about how businesses benefit (or even rely on) those low-cost labor (Why else do you think any laws that said "prosecute the employers" goes nowhere?). Also, I know full well that after cracking down on illegal immigrations, legal immigration is next in line, just b/c Drumpf have to feed his idiotic trailer park nativist base who blame everyone else but themselves for their woe.
 
2122M
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:32 pm

Big long post by Anrec. Full of ‘facts’ with no sources and finally agreeing that the wall is pointless.

Interesting.
 
anrec80
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:23 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
(Just random guess) You're from Western Europe, right? If that's the case, of course those takes no time - b/c those quotas never get fills up.


No, I am not from Western Europe. From very Eastern one.

zakuivcustom wrote:
Good luck getting anyone that's not a spouse to US in a year from China, India, or Mexico.


Yes, restrictions on those nations are known. But for virtually everyone else it’s much easier.

zakuivcustom wrote:
And I don't disagree about prosecuting employers.


First of all there is tax legislature, describing what is full time employment (W2), what is a subcontractor (1099). In each case, the employer must withhold and remit certain deduction (FICA, income taxes). So they are breaking the law, not only competing unfairly and dishonestly. And they should not be prosecuted?

zakuivcustom wrote:
Well, to be really fair, illegal immigration is not a US only problem anyway. Every single richer countries has that problem. Like, well, Mexico.


Hence migration policies in wealthier countries must be very strict. And the USA should cooperate with Latin American counties so that even poorest of their citizens know that they have nothing to catch in the United States. Furthermore, the USA can and should do more to help those nations to fix up their institutions, economies, education systems. Those countries are wealthy, have potential and things going for themselves - agriculture, mineral resources are all over South America. And those nations have potential too - Argentina used to have in 1940s living standard at very high level for those times. And even today it’s not doing too shabby.

zakuivcustom wrote:
I just don't think the wall is the solution, and is realistic about how businesses benefit (or even rely on) those low-cost labor (Why else do you think any laws that said "prosecute the employers" goes nowhere?).


Well, if a state does not enforce its law - what kind of state is it? And it will soon stop being a state, obviously.
 
anrec80
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:25 pm

2122M wrote:
Big long post by Anrec. Full of ‘facts’ with no sources and finally agreeing that the wall is pointless.


Where did you see me agreeing that the wall is pointless?
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:30 pm

2122M wrote:
Big long post by Anrec. Full of ‘facts’ with no sources and finally agreeing that the wall is pointless.

Interesting.


Umm...you sure?

anrec80 wrote:
They have been stopped for now, but they will come back, and without the wall one-by-one they will be inside this country via other places. They aren’t going back obviously.


P.S. Let's just agree that the situation in Europe and US are not even close to be the same - different laws, different geography. It's comparing apples to oranges anyway. Hack, Hungary only need to build what? 325mi of fencing (And note that it's NOT a wall - just a fence), which is shorter than the existing border barrier between Mexico and US (580mi, and already cost more than $6B...in 2006). And don't think for a minute that the fence doesn't come with controversy (But Orban is just as much of a dictator wannabe anyway).

Multiple proposal of "virtual walls", "satellite surveillance", etc. comes out from D's, all much cheaper and just as effective solutions. Nope, has to be a wall, and all of a sudden, D's are for "open border" just b/c they think a wall (that, again, Mexico is suppose to pay for) is an expensive solution to a nonexistent problem.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:33 pm

DocLightning wrote:
So my question is: at what point does a state declare independence? When most of the military has walked off the job and there's nobody to stop them?

Live outside the US so Doc, is it possible for a state to become "ununited" :confused:
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3612
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:41 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Yes, restrictions on those nations are known. But for virtually everyone else it’s much easier.


And when is the last time you see those nativist cry about having too many European "chain migrants"? Oops, forgot that those are white people (The sooner those "nativist" admit that they're racist, the better). Nope, it's crying about how all these Mexicans (or "brown people") moved their whole family here, leech off the gov't, etc.

No, don't give me BS about how those restrictions are "known". Go tell those trailer park Drumpf supporters, not me. B/c if it's "known" then why in the world there are cries over "chain migration"?

anrec80 wrote:
First of all there is tax legislature, describing what is full time employment (W2), what is a subcontractor (1099). In each case, the employer must withhold and remit certain deduction (FICA, income taxes). So they are breaking the law, not only competing unfairly and dishonestly. And they should not be prosecuted?


Again, I do NOT disagree that we need to go harder on employers exploiting illegal labors. But good luck with that (Starting with Trump, of course, since we all know how much he loves to hire undocumented cleaning workers for his hotels).

anrec80 wrote:
Hence migration policies in wealthier countries must be very strict. And the USA should cooperate with Latin American counties so that even poorest of their citizens know that they have nothing to catch in the United States. Furthermore, the USA can and should do more to help those nations to fix up their institutions, economies, education systems. Those countries are wealthy, have potential and things going for themselves - agriculture, mineral resources are all over South America. And those nations have potential too - Argentina used to have in 1940s living standard at very high level for those times. And even today it’s not doing too shabby.


Good luck telling the nativist that. And Trump is doing what? Cutting foreign aids? Cut back on any programs that may actually help those countries? Make it more and more painful on purpose (via tariffs) for even private industry to set up, let say, an industrial base there?

Oh, and BTW, the whole reason why Central America is such a mess can be totally attributed to years of meddling in governance by nobody but good ol' US of A. The term "Banana Republic" exist for a reason.
 
anrec80
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:54 pm

2122M wrote:
This is about opening our doors and resources to help the less fortunate escape the gang violence riddled nations they are from to help them find security here in America.


Where are the resources in America? With trillion dollar deficits? 80% GDP net debt? Aging and falling apart infrastructure? We cannot provide protection and social assistance to the whole South America. Not realistic simply. And in their countries - there are some problematic regions, but there are also better-off ones, where even Canadians and Americans go to retire. Why doesn’t their government provides them more help? But instead - they kind of push them to the USA to “export” their social problems (and get $$$ from these migrants - they support their families back home). Perhaps press their countries to do more for their citizens, and provide them help in battling those problems, building better education, state institutions?

2122M wrote:
And if you think most of these immigrants come here to be lazy and leach the system, you simply not paying attention or seeking out facts. In fact, that is why all the migrants in Europe try to reach Germany/France/UK. There are more work opportunities for them in the more successful nations.


In Germany/France/UK - how many of all those immigrants are legally and gainfully employed? It’s not that significant. Overwhelming majority are on social assistance - and this is what they are after.
 
alfa164
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:01 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
And when is the last time you see those nativist cry about having too many European "chain migrants"? Oops, forgot that those are white people (The sooner those "nativist" admit that they're racist, the better). Nope, it's crying about how all these Mexicans (or "brown people") moved their whole family here, leech off the gov't, etc.
No, don't give me BS about how those restrictions are "known". Go tell those trailer park Drumpf supporters, not me. B/c if it's "known" then why in the world there are cries over "chain migration"?


Since anrec claims to be living in the USA, I wonder if he came alone... or brought some of those unwelcome relatives with him...

anrec80 wrote:
Where are the resources in America? With trillion dollar deficits? 80% GDP net debt? Aging and falling apart infrastructure? We cannot provide protection and social assistance to the whole South America. Not realistic simply. And in their countries - there are some problematic regions, but there are also better-off ones, where even Canadians and Americans go to retire. Why doesn’t their government provides them more help? But instead - they kind of push them to the USA to “export” their social problems (and get $$$ from these migrants - they support their families back home). Perhaps press their countries to do more for their citizens, and provide them help in battling those problems, building better education, state institutions?


If the situation in the USA is so bad, maybe you should "go back" to your beloved Russia. I am sure liliPutin would welcome you with open arms!

:bigthumbsup: :bigthumbsup: :bigthumbsup:
 
anrec80
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:28 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
And when is the last time you see those nativist cry about having too many European "chain migrants"? Oops, forgot that those are white people (The sooner those "nativist" admit that they're racist, the better). Nope, it's crying about how all these Mexicans (or "brown people") moved their whole family here, leech off the gov't, etc.


Restrictions I meant here are of American legislative nature. Nothing to do with skin color. China and India are big countries, and there are many immigrants from those nations already (American immigration legislature contains quotas for different counties). Vast majority of other nations generally don’t exhaust their quotas. Hence for people from those nations wait for long time, until there is their turn to be in quotas - be it family reunion or EB green card (even employment based GC for a Chinese or an Indian national is many years journey). For everyone else - EB2 takes about 2 years.

From other countries - as I mentioned, you do have chain migration, often with following welfare placement.

zakuivcustom wrote:
Again, I do NOT disagree that we need to go harder on employers exploiting illegal labors. But good luck with that (Starting with Trump, of course, since we all know how much he loves to hire undocumented cleaning workers for his hotels).


Yes, easier said than done. When the matter limits itself to “blah-blah”, everyone is in favor of strong law enforcement. But when it comes to actual action, many will start cries “oh look at these poor people how can you do that???”.

zakuivcustom wrote:
Good luck telling the nativist that. And Trump is doing what? Cutting foreign aids? Cut back on any programs that may actually help those countries? Make it more and more painful on purpose (via tariffs) for even private industry to set up, let say, an industrial base there?


I also disagree with those Trump policies. It’s better to let South American economies make money here, up to certain extent. However - of money they make goes for improvement of their education, drug trafficking fight, overall improvement of institutions of their countries. But the USA has too little interest in the latter.

zakuivcustom wrote:
Oh, and BTW, the whole reason why Central America is such a mess can be totally attributed to years of meddling in governance by nobody but good ol' US of A. The term "Banana Republic" exist for a reason.


Perfectly agree - the USA should meddle less. They sticked into too many places and caused too many national disasters. And this South American migration mess - in part caused by this meddling.
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:31 pm

anrec80 wrote:
2122M wrote:
This is about opening our doors and resources to help the less fortunate escape the gang violence riddled nations they are from to help them find security here in America.


Where are the resources in America? With trillion dollar deficits? 80% GDP net debt? Aging and falling apart infrastructure? We cannot provide protection and social assistance to the whole South America. Not realistic simply. And in their countries - there are some problematic regions, but there are also better-off ones, where even Canadians and Americans go to retire. Why doesn’t their government provides them more help? But instead - they kind of push them to the USA to “export” their social problems (and get $$$ from these migrants - they support their families back home). Perhaps press their countries to do more for their citizens, and provide them help in battling those problems, building better education, state institutions?

2122M wrote:
And if you think most of these immigrants come here to be lazy and leach the system, you simply not paying attention or seeking out facts. In fact, that is why all the migrants in Europe try to reach Germany/France/UK. There are more work opportunities for them in the more successful nations.


In Germany/France/UK - how many of all those immigrants are legally and gainfully employed? It’s not that significant. Overwhelming majority are on social assistance - and this is what they are after.



67% of non-EU migrants are employed in Europe. For all those stable geniuses out there, that’s more than half. And only 10% lower than native born Europeans which is amazing considering the uphill battle the migrants face.

I will give you credit for one thing though, you’ve successfully changed the topic from the wall with Mexico (a losing battle as it’s completely useless) to European migration (irrelevant to the topic at hand)
 
MSPNWA
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:45 pm

2122M wrote:
I will give you credit for one thing though, you’ve successfully changed the topic from the wall with Mexico (a losing battle as it’s completely useless) to European migration (irrelevant to the topic at hand)


So back on topic, why is the wall a "terrible idea"?
 
2122M
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:11 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
2122M wrote:
I will give you credit for one thing though, you’ve successfully changed the topic from the wall with Mexico (a losing battle as it’s completely useless) to European migration (irrelevant to the topic at hand)


So back on topic, why is the wall a "terrible idea"?


Doesn’t address any immigration problems. Border crossings are down, and most border crossers report to border patrol anyway to request asylum. Drugs don’t come in this way, they come in through commercial points of entry. Terrorists aren’t coming in this way. It’s a bunch of tax money and eminent domain being thrown around by ‘fiscally conservative’ and ‘liberty loving’ conservatives. And I’m fact, real conservatives don’t want the wall either. That’s why the GOP led house and senate passed spending bills late last year to NOT pay for the wall.

It’s a $5.6 billion dollar hissy for being thrown by Trump that has real consequences for federal workers that can’t pay bills right now.

Now you go. Why should I get on board with spending my tax dollars on the fence when it solves zero problems and will be easy to defeat?
 
apodino
Posts: 4092
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:19 pm

I was reading an interesting article somewhere. (cant remember if it was CNN, Fox News, the Washington Times or the Washington Examiner). Has anyone here ever noticed of all the people that Trump has insulted and put down and tweeted nasty things about, one person he has never done this to is Nancy Pelosi. And although Nancy Pelosi has criticized a lot of Trump's policies...there has been very little crticism of the man. Indeed, if enough democrats had opposed Pelosi, Trump had vowed to give her republican votes for the speakership. I actually believe that this is a hidden reason why Pelosi was able to get a lot of democrats on board, because if the Democrats alone couldnt provide her the votes, they would have handed Trump leverage here. I firmly believe that Trump never wanted Pelosi to not become speaker. And despite Trump's antics, he clearly has a lot of respect and admiration for Pelosi. And Pelosi has a lot of respect for the Office of the Presidency.


Why this is relevant here is because clearly the end of the shutdown is going to be negotiated by Pelosi and Trump. McConnell and Schumer are in the room, but really dont have a lot of sway here. Pelosi is a tough negotiator, there is no doubt about it. But given the respect Trump and Pelosi have for each other, it is not hard to conclude that the two will eventually reach some sort of deal. And I also think they will find common ground on other items going forward, such as infastructure. Pelosi is a politician, but she wants to get things done as well. Her challenge is going to be dealing with the progressive caucus in the house, who may not play ball on some things that Pelosi can get done. We saw that on one of the rules votes where progressives nearly killed it. Its going to be very similar to what Bohener and Ryan had to deal with with the Tea Party caucus.


I firmly believe the shutdown will end in a couple of weeks. Trump may be grandstanding for his base, but I truly beleve there is progress being made behind the scenes. Pelosi wont say it out loud because the base could derail a deal if she really reaches one. The other thing that could happen is that congressional republicans give the president a get out of jail free card. Basically, enough republicans support the democratic bill. Trump vetoes it and then congress overrides his veto. Trump can claim he fought for the wall without giving in, while the government gets reopened. The only issue with this is any republican who votes this way could be primaried. But for people like Pat Roberts or Ron Johnson who wont run for reelection again, that is of no concern to them.
 
MSPNWA
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:27 pm

2122M wrote:
Doesn’t address any immigration problems. Border crossings are down, and most border crossers report to border patrol anyway to request asylum. Drugs don’t come in this way, they come in through commercial points of entry. Terrorists aren’t coming in this way. It’s a bunch of tax money and eminent domain being thrown around by ‘fiscally conservative’ and ‘liberty loving’ conservatives. And I’m fact, real conservatives don’t want the wall either. That’s why the GOP led house and senate passed spending bills late last year to NOT pay for the wall.

It’s a $5.6 billion dollar hissy for being thrown by Trump that has real consequences for federal workers that can’t pay bills right now.

Now you go. Why should I get on board with spending my tax dollars on the fence when it solves zero problems and will be easy to defeat?


Is illegal immigration an "immigration problem" to you?
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3612
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:27 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Restrictions I meant here are of American legislative nature. Nothing to do with skin color. China and India are big countries, and there are many immigrants from those nations already (American immigration legislature contains quotas for different counties). Vast majority of other nations generally don’t exhaust their quotas. Hence for people from those nations wait for long time, until there is their turn to be in quotas - be it family reunion or EB green card (even employment based GC for a Chinese or an Indian national is many years journey). For everyone else - EB2 takes about 2 years.

From other countries - as I mentioned, you do have chain migration, often with following welfare placement.


My whole argument is that we're already restricting the number of people coming into US (legally), but somehow "chain migration" is a large problem (Not according to me, go ask all those Drumpf supporters). Pick your side, b/c we already have a system in place that make people wait forever to come to US (No, it's NOT just India or China, but also countries like Mexico, DR, Honduras, Nicaragua; or Philippines, Vietnam, etc. in Asia)

And again, you don't have to lecture me on quotas - been there, done that, knew enough people that have to wait many, many years.

MSPNWA wrote:
So back on topic, why is the wall a "terrible idea"?


B/c...
1. We don't need it. There are zero evidences that you have illegals just walk across the desert, sneak around, and NOT get caught by border patrols. Many so-call "illegals" are actually overstaying their visa (B/c US simply doesn't have a way to track those) or simply "abuse" their visa (i.e. hold a student visa, stay in school for forever just to stay in US, meanwhile work under the table to feed themselves/family)
2. There are much cheaper, better solutions - i.e. increase the number of border patrol, electronic surveillance, "virtual wall".
3. The main problem I'm seeing is that you have that BS of "Against wall = for open border". No, D's actually provide fundings for border security, but Trump just want his stupid wall.
4. Oh, and Mexico is suppose to pay for everything.
5. We all know it's all BS smoke and mirror - trust me, if the D's didn't win the house, the gov't would still be open right now, we still won't have a wall, but all those raids are enough to solve the problems. Nope, D's took the house and Trump is now holding people hostage and throwing hissy fits.
6. And yes, House just passed the same exact budget that passed the Senate earlier, 100-0. Nope, not taking it up even though nothing had changed.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:48 pm

2122M wrote:
So they have better opportunities for healthcare and better jobs In Germany. And you want to hold it against them for getting there?
And despite all that social welfare, Germany ran a budget surplus is 2017, whereas Poland finished the year in the red.



2122M wrote:
Also, I love how you paint language learning courses as this big negative, but the right is always demanding that refugees assimilate. Well they are not going to assimilate in Poland where they are given a low paying job and no other assistance. Doesn’t take a stable genius to see that.


Probably with language classes I exaturated a bit, I admit. Basic language course is necessary in order to find and hold any job.

However - refuge is a temporary situation; it’s until situation in their country improves. And at that point - they are (or at least should be) expected to say “thank you very much!” and go back, to rebuild it.

Second - such things take away already scarce resources from native taxpayers, putting burden on al budgets, healthcare system, etc. Then you have “Alternative for Germany”, “yellow vests” and other things in EU. Refugees should receive a message from the first day - that there are expectations from them: to learn language, go get work, work legally and pay taxes, no crime committing. A committed violation - immediate deportation, no matter what.

European people and taxpayers already gave a lot to these people - a country to live in, peaceful sky, safety. There don’t have to be any further “I want”, “I prefer”, “I don’t want”, and the likes. You have been let in on certain conditions - your turn to pay back to the society that accepted you. You don’t like it - find some other refuge, there are plenty of other Muslim countries that are wealthy and peaceful - beginning with Malaysia, and right next to them there are UAE, Saudi Arabia, Quatar - those ones have more money than they know what to do with; perhaps spend some for good deeds to help people that speak their language?

An example - Ukrainians in Poland. Those people just come there, take any work that’s available, learn language, contribute to their new society and don’t expect that someone will give them something. There is also war in their country. That means it’s possible, and can work - right? There is no real reason why it has to be any different for African or Middle Eastern people. But then perhaps you won’t see even 1/5 of the migration volumes Europe attracted over the past few years. :D :D :D
Last edited by anrec80 on Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:49 pm

If a president seriously wants to end the significant immigration stream from Latin America all he needs to do is to direct the DOJ to make it high priority to
enforce the laws against employing illegals.

Then ask congress to pass legislation which would make it a felony to employ an illegal alien and subject any company found doing so to forfeiture of assets.

It wouldn't cost a dime above printing the law after its passage and all the costs of enforcement would be covered by the resulting fines.

Anything else is bullshit.
Absolute pure bullshit.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:54 pm

salttee wrote:
If a president seriously wants to end the significant immigration stream from Latin America all he needs to do is to direct the DOJ to make it high priority to
enforce the laws against employing illegals.


Agree - but easier said than done, when you have “sanctuary cities” like New York, Chicago, a whole bunch in California that don’t like immigration laws to be enforced within their borders, where illegals get identities and local police is prohibited from asking their immigration status.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:09 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
My whole argument is that we're already restricting the number of people coming into US (legally), but somehow "chain migration" is a large problem (Not according to me, go ask all those Drumpf supporters). Pick your side, b/c we already have a system in place that make people wait forever to come to US (No, it's NOT just India or China, but also countries like Mexico, DR, Honduras, Nicaragua; or Philippines, Vietnam, etc. in Asia)


Alright, I can clarify my position on chain migration. I am not against it if the sponsor is fully assuming financial liability for their family members, and demonstrates that he is able to do so in a way that the new extended family will not be on taxpayers. I.e. require significant income, place in their house to live in, some other property available, or ability to pay for their rent/mortgage, health insurance. For senior parents - that would also mean ability to pay full Medicare premiums, present fully paid long term care policy for them. Another requirement would be - medical underwriting, to make sure Medicare is taking in someone who’s still able-bodied, in good health and won’t require costly treatments right off the plane.

Then I am absolutely not against, and you shouldn’t even quota such migration. But we all here agree that the system is far from perfect.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:16 pm

Read my post again. It has nothing to do with sanctuary cities or policing.

I'm talking about ending the draw for illegal immigrants, easy money. They all come here with the intention of making a stake so that they can go home and buy a house and open a store or other business. Then they get stuck here and their kids live in a netherworld of not here and not there.

And why don't you go fix your own country. It is obvious that you have mal intent when discussing the US.
Last edited by salttee on Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3612
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:16 pm

anrec80 wrote:
European people and taxpayers already gave a lot to these people - a country to live in, peaceful sky, safety. There don’t have to be any further “I want”, “I prefer”, “I don’t want”, and the likes. You have been let in on certain conditions - your turn to pay back to the society that accepted you. You don’t like it - find some other refuge, there are plenty of other Muslim countries that are wealthy and peaceful - beginning with Malaysia, and right next to them there are UAE, Saudi Arabia, Quatar - those ones have more money than they know what to do with; perhaps spend some for good deeds to help people that speak their language?


You mean how Turkey took 2.2M Syrian refugee? Lebanon took >1M? Tiny Jordan took 650k (And it does take toll in their country also)?

salttee wrote:
If a president seriously wants to end the significant immigration stream from Latin America all he needs to do is to direct the DOJ to make it high priority to
enforce the laws against employing illegals.

Then ask congress to pass legislation which would make it a felony to employ an illegal alien and subject any company found doing so to forfeiture of assets.

It wouldn't cost a dime above printing the law after its passage and all the costs of enforcement would be covered by the resulting fines.

Anything else is bullshit.
Absolute pure bullshit.


B/c we have to start with Trump, or some of his friends? Of course they don't pass such laws - everyone knows who'll be the one that get caught.
 
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VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:21 pm

salttee wrote:
If a president seriously wants to end the significant immigration stream from Latin America all he needs to do is to direct the DOJ to make it high priority to
enforce the laws against employing illegals.

Says the party whose members want to abolish ICE.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:27 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
salttee wrote:
If a president seriously wants to end the significant immigration stream from Latin America all he needs to do is to direct the DOJ to make it high priority to
enforce the laws against employing illegals.

Says the party whose members want to abolish ICE.
What party am I??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Do you ever make an argument that isn't completely off point?
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:34 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
2122M wrote:
Doesn’t address any immigration problems. Border crossings are down, and most border crossers report to border patrol anyway to request asylum. Drugs don’t come in this way, they come in through commercial points of entry. Terrorists aren’t coming in this way. It’s a bunch of tax money and eminent domain being thrown around by ‘fiscally conservative’ and ‘liberty loving’ conservatives. And I’m fact, real conservatives don’t want the wall either. That’s why the GOP led house and senate passed spending bills late last year to NOT pay for the wall.

It’s a $5.6 billion dollar hissy for being thrown by Trump that has real consequences for federal workers that can’t pay bills right now.

Now you go. Why should I get on board with spending my tax dollars on the fence when it solves zero problems and will be easy to defeat?


Is illegal immigration an "immigration problem" to you?


Not a 5.6 billion dollar one. When I go hiking mosquitos are a problem but I don’t use hand grenades to keep them away.

The wall is the wrong solution, and an expensive one at that.
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:38 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
salttee wrote:
If a president seriously wants to end the significant immigration stream from Latin America all he needs to do is to direct the DOJ to make it high priority to
enforce the laws against employing illegals.

Says the party whose members want to abolish ICE.


ICE is raiding business and taking illegal immigrants away while allowing to business to continue operating with no recourse. So if you want to punish business, your feelings about ICE are probably irrelevant.
 
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VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:08 pm

2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
salttee wrote:
If a president seriously wants to end the significant immigration stream from Latin America all he needs to do is to direct the DOJ to make it high priority to
enforce the laws against employing illegals.

Says the party whose members want to abolish ICE.


ICE is raiding business and taking illegal immigrants away while allowing to business to continue operating with no recourse. So if you want to punish business, your feelings about ICE are probably irrelevant.

So you enhance their mission. You don’t abolish them. Nice try, though.
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:11 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
Says the party whose members want to abolish ICE.


ICE is raiding business and taking illegal immigrants away while allowing to business to continue operating with no recourse. So if you want to punish business, your feelings about ICE are probably irrelevant.

So you enhance their mission. You don’t abolish them. Nice try, though.


I’m sure if you changed ICE’s mission to punishing businesses instead of deporting mothers and fathers who are just trying to make a living, you would find a lot on the left get on board real quick.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:13 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
So you enhance their mission. You don’t abolish them. Nice try, though.

You're not even taking part in the conversation and you say "nice try".

You're just off in your own little world eh?
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:16 pm

2122M wrote:
I’m sure if you changed ICE’s mission to punishing businesses instead of deporting mothers and fathers who are just trying to make a living, you would find a lot on the left get on board real quick.

"punishing businesses" is a peculiar phrase to use here. Why not "enforcing the law"?
 
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seb146
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:30 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
Says the party whose members want to abolish ICE.


ICE is raiding business and taking illegal immigrants away while allowing to business to continue operating with no recourse. So if you want to punish business, your feelings about ICE are probably irrelevant.

So you enhance their mission. You don’t abolish them. Nice try, though.


Wasn't ICE established under Republican rule as a massive expansion of government which Republicans claim they hate? We keep hearing how Republicans hate government and want smaller and smaller government but didn't they demand ICE?

Nice try, though
 
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seb146
Posts: 23968
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:37 pm

The Republican shut down is about illegal immigration, right?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 9c03a50734
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:46 pm

salttee wrote:
2122M wrote:
I’m sure if you changed ICE’s mission to punishing businesses instead of deporting mothers and fathers who are just trying to make a living, you would find a lot on the left get on board real quick.

"punishing businesses" is a peculiar phrase to use here. Why not "enforcing the law"?


I should say, punishing businesses that break the law...
 
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scbriml
Posts: 20131
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:19 pm

anrec80 wrote:
In Germany/France/UK - how many of all those immigrants are legally and gainfully employed? It’s not that significant. Overwhelming majority are on social assistance - and this is what they are after.


I's love to see sources for each of those countries that support your claim.
 
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Tugger
Posts: 11484
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:37 pm

scbriml wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
In Germany/France/UK - how many of all those immigrants are legally and gainfully employed? It’s not that significant. Overwhelming majority are on social assistance - and this is what they are after.


I's love to see sources for each of those countries that support your claim.

Any source they provide ultimately goes back to a non-truth. That's how trolling works! Anywhere. In the USA lots of folks quote all sorts of opinions that they believe as if they were facts that goes back to some source that when pressed they can't actually verify. Someone says something, someone else repeats it and then more. The goal of trolling is to just to repeat things and get things repeated. It is a modern version of political gamesmanship. Unfortunately. And Russian internet troll factories work this very consistently and very well.

Tugg
 
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Alphazone
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:22 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:49 pm

casinterest wrote:
The whole shutdown is over "Build the wall" However there are no plans and no costs associated with this wall. Republicans should be calling out the Administration for failing to properly run the government and for properly defining the resources and effort to "Build the wall". The GOP is the party that always wants "accountability", but there is no call for it here, and there are resources being denied to the American Citizens and Federal employees by this veto threat of Trump.

At then end of the day this shutdown is much like the story of the Emperor's new clothes. Wasteful spending for nothing.


I think the idea to build a wall is ridiculous, there is already armed border enforcement so agents could just be equipped with some composite bullets and shoot at people illegally crossing the border. And use real bullets on vehicles.
Last edited by Alphazone on Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:07 am

VTKillarney wrote:
They’ve never whined about securing the border. But you knew that.


They whine about the size and expense of government, yet support this expensive government project without anyone proposing how this will be paid for.

But you knew that. Or maybe not. It is you after all...
 
bagoldex
Posts: 1027
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:33 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:24 am

2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
They’ve never whined about securing the border. But you knew that.


They whine about the size and expense of government, yet support this expensive government project without anyone proposing how this will be paid for.

But you knew that. Or maybe not. It is you after all...


You can’t put a price tag on such a critical societal need as alleviating the irrational fears of white people in flyover country.
Last edited by bagoldex on Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:34 am

But why use the Trumpist term "punishing business"? If they're breaking the law by hiring illegals, they're running a continuous criminal enterprise, not a "business".
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3612
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:23 am

salttee wrote:
But why use the Trumpist term "punishing business"? If they're breaking the law by hiring illegals, they're running a continuous criminal enterprise, not a "business".


Business, Employer, Enterprise, "What difference does it make" :duck: :duck:

Something I just realized, though, is that e-Verify is down right now due to the shutdown. So much winning :banghead:

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/03/68196911 ... -enforceme
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 22259
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:23 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
So my question is: at what point does a state declare independence? When most of the military has walked off the job and there's nobody to stop them?

Live outside the US so Doc, is it possible for a state to become "ununited" :confused:


There is no Constitutional process for a state to leave the United States. However, let's suppose that we're now 18 months into this. At this point, the entire Federal Government has pretty much shut down. Planes are not flying, supermarkets are having trouble stocking food, military equipment is mothballed, and basically the Federal Government is defunct.

The Constitution is only valid if there is a mechanism to enforce it. But after a long enough time, a state might say: "Screw this. We're funding all these services ourselves. People in this state should stop paying Federal taxes because there's nobody to deposit the check, anyway, and we are declaring that we are no longer part of the United States because the United States has ceased to exist." And once the first state does that, then there would likely be a cascade effect and other states would follow along. Once a thing like that has occurred, there would be no practical way of reassembling the United States. Practical issues would abound and probably a North American Federation would form.

People thought that the breakup of the Soviet Union was unthinkable until the very day it happened. No nation is founded with its own end in mind, but I believe that we are looking at that here. And that might not be a bad thing. The United States has become ungovernable, so maybe it's time to break it up into smaller, governable chunks.
 
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VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:26 pm

Nancy Pelosi would break apart the Union over $5 billion? No way.

We’ve had shutdowns before. We will be just fine.
 
A3801000
Posts: 562
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:35 pm

Even ox has enough of the WH BS :)

'Fox’s Chris Wallace Repeatedly Nails Sarah Sanders on Bogus Border Terror Threat Claims'

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/foxs-chris- ... at-claims/

Image
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:42 pm

A3801000 wrote:
'Fox’s Chris Wallace Repeatedly Nails Sarah Sanders on Bogus Border Terror Threat Claims'

Chris Wallace is one of the very few people in Fox News with a brain and who doesn't spew the Fox News/GOP lines.

Don't be surprised if you start seeing people saying that Fox should fire Chris Wallace.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3612
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:45 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
'Fox’s Chris Wallace Repeatedly Nails Sarah Sanders on Bogus Border Terror Threat Claims'

Chris Wallace is one of the very few people in Fox News with a brain and who doesn't spew the Fox News/GOP lines.

Don't be surprised if you start seeing people saying that Fox should fire Chris Wallace.


Indeed, Chris Wallace, along with Shepard Smith, are always respectable anchors on Fox. Both call out BS when they see it, which is what a news anchor is suppose to do.

Too bad even those two combined together cannot offset the total BS from people like Hannity.
 
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Tugger
Posts: 11484
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:02 pm

And as he is now seeing failure of his "talking point" Trump is digging back and trying to change to the "Obama version":
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump- ... rack-obama

So does he want "his wall"? Or is he willing to change to the smarter and long acted on use of properly designed barriers in key areas combined with patrol work and surveillance along the rest?

I hope he capitulates and moves to the "Obama version" versus throwing money down the drain, taking lands from US citizens, and fighting court battles for years to come with his version. Will be interesting to see.

Tugg
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3612
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:46 pm

Tugger wrote:
So does he want "his wall"? Or is he willing to change to the smarter and long acted on use of properly designed barriers in key areas combined with patrol work and surveillance along the rest?


You're giving Trump WAY too much credit. You really think he can ever come to his sense? People have been betting for past 2 years that Trump will finally change for the better. Nope, still the same ol' moron that just opens his loud mouth and make everyone else do the hard work of covering his rear.
 
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VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:47 pm

Trump is actually using Twitter effectively.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/01/06/tru ... tdown.html

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