Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:13 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
More details are coming out. Apparently Donald Trump suggested that they could re-open government so long as Schumer and Pelosi agreed to continue to discuss border security. Pelosi flat out said no. At this point the only reasonable conclusion is that Pelosi owns the shut down.


Where is a source that shows Pelosi and Schumer would not agree to discuss 'border security'?
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:15 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
they would agree to re-open government and continue negotiations.


Trump has that option too. Re-open the government and then discuss the wall without holding government employees hostage over the issue. In fact, he is the one asking for all the money, this is 100% on him.
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Posts: 4751
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:15 pm

casinterest wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Again, it is quite possible that people HAVE missed a paycheck. Just not direct government employees.
Contract workers are often paid weekly.

Tugg


Contract workers would also have been paid on the 28th if they follow a typical convention of one week pay periods.

(I'm a contract worker - not on government contracts right now - Trust me, not getting paid for one or two weeks is not any of our concern - we can sometimes go months without pay depending on how quickly the company we're doing work for decides to pay on the invoices and how you word your contracts and invoices. I haven't been paid for work I did in December yet. But that's how we set it up for this contract. In other instances I've been paid essentially weekly, but that was the company running the contract's responsibility to front the money while invoices were being processed)

Furthermore, in AOC's tweet the person said they worked for HUD. I take this to read they are a federal employee, not a contract worker.

casinterest wrote:
It is not a lie. Some federal workers get paid in between periods. So this worker could realistically gotten their last paycheck on the 21st. 19 days ago.


Source for federal workers who are on a different pay period please. (Not contract workers)


Those that take a check, instead of EFT( Direct Deposit) last got theirs on 19th of December
https://www.gsa.gov/cdnstatic/GSA_Payro ... r_2018.pdf

That might have been when the checks were issued, but I'm not aware of any federal workers paid outside of the standard pay schedule. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but I've never heard of it, and my understanding is that we're all on the same federal calendar. Everyone had that last pay period closed out early when Christmas Eve was made a holiday; our hours were projected through the weekend, so the pay period essentially closed between the 19th and 20th depending on the department instead of being done on the 25th or 26th like usual. Paychecks weren't actually distributed until the following week, either the 28th or 31st by EFT depending on the bank. Paper checks would have been distributed on the 31st.

I have no idea for contract workers, but I really hope they're made whole whenever this debacle ends.
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:16 pm

2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
More details are coming out. Apparently Donald Trump suggested that they could re-open government so long as Schumer and Pelosi agreed to continue to discuss border security. Pelosi flat out said no. At this point the only reasonable conclusion is that Pelosi owns the shut down.


Where is a source that shows Pelosi and Schumer would not agree to discuss 'border security'?


https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTr ... 4012091396
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11580
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:17 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
winginit wrote:
It would appear Trump had an interesting negotiating strategy during today’s meeting per Schumer:

Schumer says Trump “sort of slammed the table, and when Leader Pelosi said she didn't agree with the wall, he just walked out and said ‘we have nothing to discuss.’ He said it was a waste of his time.”


Source

I can’t really blame him. Pelosi made it clear that no matter what Trump concedes she will not give an inch. So why have discussions? Pelosi just wants to grandstand and Trump called her out on it. In a good faith negotiation both parties need to be open to the fact that they may have to concede something that they don’t necessarily agree with. Pelosi was clearly not ready willing and able to negotiate in good faith.

Can't blame him? That statement "[don't] agree with the wall" (if accurate) is not an absolute, there is plenty of wiggle room there.

While walking out is one type of negotiating strategy (stalk out, hope the other party pursues you to restart thereby extracting an initial concession), I have negotiated with plenty of parties that said "I don't agree with what you request" and have almost every time achieved a good deal for myself/my company by discussing the whole equation with them. I get most of what I want (normally) and they get a lot of want they want (and most importantly, the sale).

Tugg
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:20 pm

I’ve done literally hundreds of negotiations. If someone tells me that they are not coming Philip prepared to negotiate in good faith my response is, “have a nice day.” That strategy has served me extremely well in the past.

Professional mediators actually prohibit a party from engaging in the behavior that Nancy Pelosi engaged in. You have to sign an agreement upfront that says that you will negotiate in good faith and fully consider all proposals before coming to any sort of judgment about them.
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:21 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
More details are coming out. Apparently Donald Trump suggested that they could re-open government so long as Schumer and Pelosi agreed to continue to discuss border security. Pelosi flat out said no. At this point the only reasonable conclusion is that Pelosi owns the shut down.


Where is a source that shows Pelosi and Schumer would not agree to discuss 'border security'?


https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTr ... 4012091396


From your link: " includes a Wall or Steel Barrier?"

He was asking for money for the wall....

You should read your own sources before you try to use them as evidence. The Dems want a strong border, but know that a wall is a waste on money and doesn't serve help the cause.
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:23 pm

2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
2122M wrote:

Where is a source that shows Pelosi and Schumer would not agree to discuss 'border security'?


https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTr ... 4012091396


From your link: " includes a Wall or Steel Barrier?"

He was asking for money for the wall....

You should read your own sources before you try to use them as evidence. The Dems want a strong border, but know that a wall is a waste on money and doesn't serve help the cause.


I never suggested otherwise. The bottom line is that if Nancy Pelosi wants to negotiate in good faith, she is going to have to be open minded about sending some money toward the wall. You cannot negotiate in good faith if you are insisting on drawing a line in the sand that you will absolutely not cross if that line gives you everything and anything that you’ve been looking for and gives absolutely nothing to your opponent.
 
winginit
Posts: 3073
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:25 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
I’ve done literally hundreds of negotiations. If someone tells me that they are not coming Philip prepared to negotiate in good faith my response is, “have a nice day.” That strategy has served me extremely well in the past.

Professional mediators actually prohibit a party from engaging in the behavior that Nancy Pelosi engaged in. You have to sign an agreement upfront that says that you will negotiate in good faith and fully consider all proposals before coming to any sort of judgment about them.


I’m not sure I agree with your dot-connecting that brings us from what was said to bad faith.

I think we can agree that the below took place at this point:

1. Trump asked the Democrats if they would discuss border security that included his wall within thirty days if the government was quickly re-opened

2. Pelosi said no, a stance that’s in line with where we’ve been to this point (no wall)

3. Trump got up and left.

Where are you seeing bad faith?

VTKillarney wrote:
You cannot negotiate in good faith if you are insisting on drawing a line in the sand that you will absolutely not cross if that line gives you everything


Trump is literally taking the exact same approach.
Last edited by winginit on Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bgm
Posts: 2535
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:25 pm

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ech/579850

Trump has never wanted a solution. He has wanted a divisive issue and a personal monument. Futile though that monument may be, he could have gotten it, too, had he been willing to trade something attractive to Democrats. But Trump was never willing to bargain. Senate Republicans would not let him: They saw no point in the border wall, and were unwilling to barter for it.

More fatefully, though, Trump’s vision of leadership allows no room for bartering. He imagines the presidency to operate on the principle, “I command; you obey.” More even than his wall, he wanted to coerce the Democrats into a surrender by the sheer force of his mighty will. Except Trump did not have the clout to achieve that.


That's why Pelosi is standing firm. By doing so it'll just be a matter of time before Trump eventually crumbles.
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:27 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:


From your link: " includes a Wall or Steel Barrier?"

He was asking for money for the wall....

You should read your own sources before you try to use them as evidence. The Dems want a strong border, but know that a wall is a waste on money and doesn't serve help the cause.


I never suggested otherwise. The bottom line is that if Nancy Pelosi wants to negotiate in good faith, she is going to have to be open minded about sending some money toward the wall. You cannot negotiate in good faith if you are insisting on drawing a line in the sand that you will absolutely not cross if that line gives you everything and anything that you’ve been looking for.


Goes both ways.... Trump has said he won't accept anything less than the 5.6 Billion, so where is his good faith negotiation? He said he would sign a bill in 2018 to avoid this and the decided not to at the last minute, where is his good faith negotiation?

At the end of the day, the House controls the budget, and Americans voted (overwhelmingly) for this house. Trump should respect the wishes of the voters that put Dems in control of the house and stop throwing this temper tantrum over not getting his 5.6 billion.
Last edited by 2122M on Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:27 pm

winginit wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
I’ve done literally hundreds of negotiations. If someone tells me that they are not coming Philip prepared to negotiate in good faith my response is, “have a nice day.” That strategy has served me extremely well in the past.

Professional mediators actually prohibit a party from engaging in the behavior that Nancy Pelosi engaged in. You have to sign an agreement upfront that says that you will negotiate in good faith and fully consider all proposals before coming to any sort of judgment about them.


I’m not sure I agree with your dot-connecting that brings us from what was said to bad faith.

I think we can agree that the below took place at this point:

1. Trump asked the Democrats if they would discuss border security that included his wall within thirty days if the government was quickly re-opened

2. Pelosi said no, a stance that’s in line with where we’ve been to this point (no wall)

3. Trump got up and left.

Where are you seeing bad faith?

Because the only commitment that Trump was asking for was a commitment to talk. If Pelosi is not willing to talk then she is not willing to negotiate in good faith. That’s all fine, she’s entitled to draw a line in the sand. But if she’s going to do that be honest about it and don’t waste anyone’s time.
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:32 pm

Trump: “If I agree to re-open government will you agree to at least talk with no other commitment?

Pelosi: “No.”

It’s hard for me to come up with a scenario where this does not backfire for Pelosi.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11580
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:33 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
I’ve done literally hundreds of negotiations.

As have I. For millions of dollars (not saying you don't do that too, just adding context).

VTKillarney wrote:
If someone tells me that they are not coming Philip prepared to negotiate in good faith

Where does someone having a starting position constitute bad faith? Everyone always has something that they don't want to touch. And in fact that is often a tool I use to achieve my goals. I have seldom had someone show and say "everything is on the table".

VTKillarney wrote:
Professional mediators actually prohibit a party from engaging in the behavior that Nancy Pelosi engaged in. You have to sign an agreement upfront that says that you will negotiate in good faith and fully consider all proposals before coming to any sort of judgment about them.

Well first that is not this situation. Second why consider something you wont actually consider? Sure I have accepted lots of proposals that contain elements that are red lines for me. OK, I "considered" the proposal. They I reject it and respond back. But I upfront will explain what I cannot do to help speed the process, but that doesn't mean they or I walk out. We all try to get something and sometimes the other side sticks to their guns and we deal with it (or not).

But I normally want to get a resolution, to gain the object that I am negotiating for, so I have generally never walked out. But hey if that's for you then go for it. It wouldn't impress or stress me much.

Tugg
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:37 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Trump: “If I agree to re-open government will you agree to at least talk about funding my wall with no other commitment?

Pelosi: “No.”

It’s hard for me to come up with a scenario where this does not backfire for Pelosi.


fixed it for you.
 
winginit
Posts: 3073
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:37 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Because the only commitment that Trump was asking for was a commitment to talk. If Pelosi is not willing to talk then she is not willing to negotiate in good faith. That’s all fine, she’s entitled to draw a line in the sand. But if she’s going to do that be honest about it and don’t waste anyone’s time.


I guess I see that point, but I’m not sure I’d go so far as to say that Pelosi sticking to what is now her documented and long-standing position (no wall money. period.) now brings her into a bad faith scenario.

VTKillarney wrote:
It’s hard for me to come up with a scenario where this does not backfire for Pelosi.


Backfire how though? Specifically. Trump still needs to ensure that Republican Senators stick with him on this - that’s the primary vulnerability here. I’m not sure anything that was said or done today, especially the optics of Trump walking out of the room, did anything to further hold Republican Senators in line.
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:37 pm

Tugg,

I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying. I think the mistake, however, is treating this negotiation like it is something that you or I would be involved in. Quite simply, it is not.

Let me put it to you this way. If the government shut down is going to do in excess of $5.7 billion worth of damage to the economy, then Pelosi needs to be open minded about the lesser of two evils. Perhaps I did not explain this concept well enough. She is making a rookie negotiating mistake of putting what will please her ego ahead of what will actually put her client, the public, in the best overall economic position.
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 3018
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:38 pm

2122M wrote:
Goes both ways.... Trump has said he won't accept anything less than the 5.6 Billion, so where is his good faith negotiation? He said he would sign a bill in 2018 to avoid this and the decided not to at the last minute, where is his good faith negotiation?

At the end of the day, the House controls the budget, and Americans voted (overwhelmingly) for this house. Trump should respect the wishes of the voters that put Dems in control of the house and stop throwing this temper tantrum over not getting his 5.6 billion.


Democrats could request something they find to be equivalent.

Perhaps we should work on that comprehensive immigration stuff again. Roll it all up. Get a commitment down on paper saying we will address these issues X Y and Z.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Topic Author
Posts: 14392
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:39 pm

2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
Trump: “If I agree to re-open government will you agree to at least talk about funding my wall with no other commitment?

Pelosi: “No.”

It’s hard for me to come up with a scenario where this does not backfire for Pelosi.


fixed it for you.



Talk about funding MY wall with NO OTHER COMMITMENT.

Seems like Trump wants everything. and wants to give nothing.
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:40 pm

casinterest wrote:
2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
Trump: “If I agree to re-open government will you agree to at least talk about funding my wall with no other commitment?

Pelosi: “No.”

It’s hard for me to come up with a scenario where this does not backfire for Pelosi.


fixed it for you.



Talk about funding MY wall with NO OTHER COMMITMENT.

Seems like Trump wants everything. and wants to give nothing.

You misunderstood my point. The only commitment from Pelosi that Trump was seeking was a commitment to talk. Nothing more. That incredibly small concession would have reopened government. Frankly, I think it was a horrible negotiation tactic on the part of Trump.
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:40 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
2122M wrote:
Goes both ways.... Trump has said he won't accept anything less than the 5.6 Billion, so where is his good faith negotiation? He said he would sign a bill in 2018 to avoid this and the decided not to at the last minute, where is his good faith negotiation?

At the end of the day, the House controls the budget, and Americans voted (overwhelmingly) for this house. Trump should respect the wishes of the voters that put Dems in control of the house and stop throwing this temper tantrum over not getting his 5.6 billion.


Democrats could request something they find to be equivalent.

Perhaps we should work on that comprehensive immigration stuff again. Roll it all up. Get a commitment down on paper saying we will address these issues X Y and Z.


That's all well and good, but its not going to involve a 5.6 billion dollar wall fund, and that's the one thing Trump won't let go of.
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:41 pm

2122M wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
2122M wrote:
Goes both ways.... Trump has said he won't accept anything less than the 5.6 Billion, so where is his good faith negotiation? He said he would sign a bill in 2018 to avoid this and the decided not to at the last minute, where is his good faith negotiation?

At the end of the day, the House controls the budget, and Americans voted (overwhelmingly) for this house. Trump should respect the wishes of the voters that put Dems in control of the house and stop throwing this temper tantrum over not getting his 5.6 billion.


Democrats could request something they find to be equivalent.

Perhaps we should work on that comprehensive immigration stuff again. Roll it all up. Get a commitment down on paper saying we will address these issues X Y and Z.


That's all well and good, but its not going to involve a 5.6 billion dollar wall fund, and that's the one thing Trump won't let go of.

That’s a long winded way of saying that the Democrats are perfectly happy getting much less than they could possibly get just a stroke their ego. If they were smart they would agree to this small amount of money and they would make Trump pay dearly for it. Very dearly. That tactic would work. But apparently Pelosi is just as bad a negotiator as Trump.
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:43 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
casinterest wrote:
2122M wrote:

fixed it for you.



Talk about funding MY wall with NO OTHER COMMITMENT.

Seems like Trump wants everything. and wants to give nothing.

You misunderstood my point. The only commitment from Pelosi that Trump was seeking was a commitment to talk. Nothing more. That incredibly small concession would have reopened government. Frankly, I think it was a horrible negotiation tactic on the part of Trump.


That was not the only thing he was asking. Read the Tweet, he wanted a discussion about border security that would include funding for the wall. Read it again. Read it 100 times more if you need to. This all comes down to his stupid, ego-driven, Mexico-was-supposed-to-pay-for-it wall! He gives up on the wall and wants to talk comprehensive immigration reform and smart border security, the Dems will be all ears.
 
winginit
Posts: 3073
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:44 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
The only commitment from Pelosi that Trump was seeking was a commitment to talk.


I don’t know if you’re doing it intentionally or not, but you’re not completing the sentence to reflect reality.

Trump was seeking commitment to talk about funding the border fence with taxpayer dollars. Let’s make sure that’s clear. He wasn’t just wanting to shoot the shit about overall border security.
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:47 pm

winginit wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
The only commitment from Pelosi that Trump was seeking was a commitment to talk.


I don’t know if you’re doing it intentionally or not, but you’re not completing the sentence to reflect reality.

Trump was seeking commitment to talk about funding the border fence with taxpayer dollars. Let’s make sure that’s clear. He wasn’t just wanting to shoot the shit about overall border security.


Exactly this. Trump has painted himself into a corner here. He wants 5.6 Billion for a wall that the GOP senate is lukewarm on and the House is against. So he's holding part of the government hostage because the politics aren't going his way.
 
deltalaw
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:47 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:52 pm

I am flying MCO-LGA-MCO on Friday for a work meeting. LGA tends to be front and center in the news coverage about horrible lines. Anyone actually been through LGA in the past few days? Specifically the Precheck line?
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15923
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:56 pm

It won't be the 'little people' like the furloughed/unpaid government workers that will end this stalemate, it will be the 'big boys'. Eventually the big banks, the big 'wall street' investment houses, the big property owners, the big airlines seeing 3+ hour TSA and ICE lines at airports, and the richest will put pressure on Trump, top Democrats and Republicans to end the shutdown as hurting the markets, their customers, their profits, hurting their ability to do deals that need SEC and other government approvals or licenses. They will break either the Democrat leaders or Trump to do a deal or else they will lose campaign funds.
 
winginit
Posts: 3073
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:02 pm

On the topic of aviation and this shutdown, I’m told that at Delta’s leadership conference today the executive team was asked what impacts they can expect from the shutdown. The response from Ed was that if the shutdown runs past roughly the end of this month there will be notable delays in the FAA’s authorization and induction of new aircraft into the system. This would delay Delta’s plans to put the A220 into service.

An interesting aviation tidbit.
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 3018
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:08 pm

winginit wrote:
On the topic of aviation and this shutdown, I’m told that at Delta’s leadership conference today the executive team was asked what impacts they can expect from the shutdown. The response from Ed was that if the shutdown runs past roughly the end of this month there will be notable delays in the FAA’s authorization and induction of new aircraft into the system. This would delay Delta’s plans to put the A220 into service.

An interesting aviation tidbit.


Yes, there are other certification impacts as well. About the only thing you'll see coming out of the FAA right now have to do with service bulletins or airworthiness directives.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24174
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:35 pm

I ran across a blurb on MSNBC and decided to fact check on a different site

https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... -on-border
https://deadline.com/2019/01/donald-tru ... 202531544/

Using the fear speech to fundraise for his stupid vanity wall. Fine. Open the government back up and use your MAGA fan boys to pay for the stupid vanity wall.
 
winginit
Posts: 3073
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:43 pm

We have an interesting aligning of the stars here in that media outlets from Breitbart to HuffPo are covering today's meeting between Trump and the Democrats the exact same way - by honing in on the fact that Trump walked out of the negotiations.

I imagine that will play well with his base, but I doubt it's helping reassure Senate Republicans to hold the line.

While it's not predictive of a possible outcome here, it was reported today that Republican Senator James Lankford expressed concerns to the President today over the impacts the shutdown was having on Federal workers. Cory Gardner, Lisa Murkowski, and Susan Collins have already called on Trump to re-open the government without funding for the wall.

Image

Clockwise from the top: Fox News, HuffPo, NBC News, CNN, Breitbart
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 3018
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:46 pm

winginit wrote:
We have an interesting aligning of the stars here in that media outlets from Breitbart to HuffPo are covering today's meeting between Trump and the Democrats the exact same way - by honing in on the fact that Trump walked out of the negotiations.

I imagine that will play well with his base, but I doubt it's helping reassure Senate Republicans to hold the line.

While it's not predictive of a possible outcome here, it was reported today that Republican Senator James Lankford expressed concerns to the President today over the impacts the shutdown was having on Federal workers. Cory Gardner, Lisa Murkowski, and Susan Collins have already called on Trump to re-open the government without funding for the wall.



While they may have the same headlines I guarantee the interpretation of that action was completely different between those mediums. (Just as different as how I interpret his action vs how I'm sure you interpret it)
 
winginit
Posts: 3073
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:52 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
winginit wrote:
We have an interesting aligning of the stars here in that media outlets from Breitbart to HuffPo are covering today's meeting between Trump and the Democrats the exact same way - by honing in on the fact that Trump walked out of the negotiations.

I imagine that will play well with his base, but I doubt it's helping reassure Senate Republicans to hold the line.

While it's not predictive of a possible outcome here, it was reported today that Republican Senator James Lankford expressed concerns to the President today over the impacts the shutdown was having on Federal workers. Cory Gardner, Lisa Murkowski, and Susan Collins have already called on Trump to re-open the government without funding for the wall.



While they may have the same headlines I guarantee the interpretation of that action was completely different between those mediums. (Just as different as how I interpret his action vs how I'm sure you interpret it)


Without a doubt.

Of note is that the Breitbart article makes it sound as though Trump was asking for a commitment from the Democrats to fund the wall within 30 days as opposed to just 'talking' about it:

Congressional Republicans confirmed the account after the meeting, noting that Schumer and Pelosi refused to commit to any funding for a wall within 30 days, even if the government was reopened.
Last edited by winginit on Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
n92r03
Posts: 573
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:46 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:54 pm

So has anyone noticed longer lines at TSA checkpoints at the airport? I traveled through GSP, ATL and TPA in the last few days and had zero delay at security.

Another random thought. The federal workers who are not getting paid will get paid retroactively, correct? Regardless of if they are working or sitting at home, correct? If so and I'll assume both are correct, I can't see too many people in the private sector (much less aviation industry) that feels too bad for them. How about when mergers happen, business go bankrupt, etc., and one gets a notice on Friday afternoon with not severance pay that they are out of a job?

Having a delay in getting the pay check sucks, but with some basic budgeting should not be the end of the world.
 
winginit
Posts: 3073
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:59 pm

n92r03 wrote:
The federal workers who are not getting paid will get paid retroactively, correct? Regardless of if they are working or sitting at home, correct? If so and I'll assume both are correct, I can't see too many people in the private sector (much less aviation industry) that feels too bad for them. How about when mergers happen, business go bankrupt, etc., and one gets a notice on Friday afternoon with not severance pay that they are out of a job?

Having a delay in getting the pay check sucks, but with some basic budgeting should not be the end of the world.


First and foremost, contractors will not be paid retroactively in many cases. I don't have a specific figure but safe to say tens of thousands of the federal workers employed by the impacted agencies are contractors and are often the most vulnerable to financial disruption as they often hold cleaning and security positions that pay on the lower end of the scale.

Secondly, I understand the general comparison to when a merger happens or when a business goes bust, but we're talking about 800,000 workers here. That's an entirely different scale.
Last edited by winginit on Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Topic Author
Posts: 14392
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:59 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
winginit wrote:
We have an interesting aligning of the stars here in that media outlets from Breitbart to HuffPo are covering today's meeting between Trump and the Democrats the exact same way - by honing in on the fact that Trump walked out of the negotiations.

I imagine that will play well with his base, but I doubt it's helping reassure Senate Republicans to hold the line.

While it's not predictive of a possible outcome here, it was reported today that Republican Senator James Lankford expressed concerns to the President today over the impacts the shutdown was having on Federal workers. Cory Gardner, Lisa Murkowski, and Susan Collins have already called on Trump to re-open the government without funding for the wall.



While they may have the same headlines I guarantee the interpretation of that action was completely different between those mediums. (Just as different as how I interpret his action vs how I'm sure you interpret it)


How do we interpret it differently? Trump the great negotiator that he claims to be ...WALKED OUT! He did nothing to move forward other than offer an ultimatum and walk out when the first no happened. How the hell was this guy ever in real estate?
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:12 pm

Walking out can be an effective tactic. I’m not saying that Trump is a great negotiator, but it can be a valid tactic.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Topic Author
Posts: 14392
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:15 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Walking out can be an effective tactic. I’m not saying that Trump is a great negotiator, but it can be a valid tactic.


You walk out when you have nothing to lose. Trump has everything to lose.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ch/579850/
"Well, that was the shortest, most easily resolved national emergency in U.S. history. Twelve hours ago, the president was preparing to set aside the regular process of law. By 9 p.m. eastern time? Not so much.

Perhaps somebody pointed out that 15-year civil-engineering projects do not look very convincingly like emergency measures. “My house is burning! Time to begin the process of calling for design proposals for a new fire station."

Leverage: don’t make deals without it.” The words appeared under Donald Trump’s byline on page 55 of the 1987 best seller The Art of the Deal. Trump did not write them, and he seems not to have understood how to apply them. In this budget shutdown, Trump discarded his leverage from the very start, by declaring for the cameras that the budget shutdown was his decision, his responsibility. When the shutdown began to hurt, Trump and his surrogates hastily tried to transfer the onus—but it was too late. Everybody knew that it was Trump’s doing, and that it was done for reasons rejected by large majorities of Americans.
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:22 pm

casinterest wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
Walking out can be an effective tactic. I’m not saying that Trump is a great negotiator, but it can be a valid tactic.


You walk out when you have nothing to lose.

Both sides have a lot to lose. The public knows that this is all about egos. The Democrats want you to believe that, because of the shut down, the sky is falling. That’s a double edged sword. $5.7 billion is a cheap price to pay to prevent the sky from falling, and everyone knows it.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 16809
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:36 pm

For all we know, 45 could just be projecting because he's stewing on something else. He was made to look pretty weak yesterday after Neocon Bolton countermanded his Syria policy in front of Bibi. Not exactly scoring a big point for the America Furst isolationism he's trying to deliver to his base.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Topic Author
Posts: 14392
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:52 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
casinterest wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
Walking out can be an effective tactic. I’m not saying that Trump is a great negotiator, but it can be a valid tactic.


You walk out when you have nothing to lose.

Both sides have a lot to lose. The public knows that this is all about egos. The Democrats want you to believe that, because of the shut down, the sky is falling. That’s a double edged sword. $5.7 billion is a cheap price to pay to prevent the sky from falling, and everyone knows it.


The sky is failing for 800,000+ people. Trump won election by 100,000
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:57 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Both sides have a lot to lose. The public knows that this is all about egos. The Democrats want you to believe that, because of the shut down, the sky is falling. That’s a double edged sword. $5.7 billion is a cheap price to pay to prevent the sky from falling, and everyone knows it.

Correction:
You think it's all about egos.
You think 5.7 billion is "cheap".
The "sky is falling" is your meaningless metaphor, no one else's. The sky is not falling.

Your constant hyperbole is asinine.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3639
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:00 am

casinterest wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
casinterest wrote:

You walk out when you have nothing to lose.

Both sides have a lot to lose. The public knows that this is all about egos. The Democrats want you to believe that, because of the shut down, the sky is falling. That’s a double edged sword. $5.7 billion is a cheap price to pay to prevent the sky from falling, and everyone knows it.


The sky is failing for 800,000+ people. Trump won election by 100,000


Nope, make it -3M votes.

More realistic, 10,704 in MI, 44,292 in PA, and 22,748 in WI, for a total of 77,744 votes.

P.S. Why do anyone think the Repukes (and Trump especially) care about people working in federal gov't? I mean, even without the shutdown BS they're getting exactly $0 in raise (other than the standard increment, if even that, it does depends on which federal payscale one falls under). Plus federal workers are just a bunch of lazy ass whose salary (that is suppose to be all that great...which it's not) is funded by taxpayers according to Repukes.
 
alfa164
Posts: 4022
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:10 am

winginit wrote:
I don’t know if you’re doing it intentionally or not, but you’re not completing the sentence to reflect reality. Trump was seeking commitment to talk about funding the border fence with taxpayer dollars. Let’s make sure that’s clear. He wasn’t just wanting to shoot the shit about overall border security.


1) A commitment to talking about a border wall that will require use of imminent domaine against private landholders - something most of us tru conservatives oppose;

2) A commitment to talk about a border wall that every single congressman whose district touches the border - including Republican Will Hurd - opposes;

3) A commitment to talk about a border wall that would do nothing to stop immigrants from overstaying their visas - the largest group of people illegally inside the USA;

4) A commitment to talk about a border wall that, if Trump gets his way completely, will cost at least $25 billion dollars - and that is the estimate from his friends at Faux "News" / https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/trumps- ... atistician ;

5) A commitment to talk about a border wall that most Americans oppose / https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cbs-news-p ... -the-wall/ ;

6) A commitment to talk about a border wall that most Americans felt Trump should have compromised on, rather than create the shutdown / https://www.npr.org/2018/12/11/67533430 ... e-shutdown .
.
.
No, no one needs to commit to the border wall. At some point, Trump has to realize he is supposed to be President of the United States, not some TV personality (and I use the term "personality" loosely) whose duty it is to kow-tow to the lowest base of the white nationalists and immigration hard-liners. Someday, he needs to think about all Americans - but I don't expect him to realize that until he is on his way out the door...

:roll:
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:28 am

I can’t believe that a President would have the audacity to walk out of a meeting instead of negotiating.

https://www.politico.com/story/2011/07/ ... lks-058937
 
winginit
Posts: 3073
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:36 am

VTKillarney wrote:
I can’t believe that a President would have the audacity to walk out of a meeting instead of negotiating.

https://www.politico.com/story/2011/07/ ... lks-058937


Hmmm... now if only there was a word for what it was that you just di... oh!

VTKillarney wrote:
That’s some serious whataboutism.


See how this works?
Last edited by winginit on Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:36 am

VTKillarney wrote:
I can’t believe that a President would have the audacity to walk out of a meeting instead of negotiating.

https://www.politico.com/story/2011/07/ ... lks-058937


Again, read your links. This was an abrupt walk out as a long negotiation session was ending, and there was another session already scheduled. Also, accounts of the ‘walk out’ were disputed, unlike today’s events.

Score another one in the failed vault of VTK’s “BUT OBAMA!” retorts...
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:53 am

winginit wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
I can’t believe that a President would have the audacity to walk out of a meeting instead of negotiating.

https://www.politico.com/story/2011/07/ ... lks-058937


Hmmm... now if only there was a word for what it was that you just di... oh!

VTKillarney wrote:
That’s some serious whataboutism.


See how this works?

You don’t understand whataboutism. Whataboutism is an argument that an opponent is guilty of an offense just as egregious or worse than what the original party was accused of doing.

I’m not accusing Obama of an offense. Quite the opposite. My point has always been that it’s fine for a President to walk away, whether it’s Trump or Obama. I’ve been quite consistent in my acknowledgement that it’s a valid tactic.

Am I accusing the Democrats of hypocrisy? Yes. But that is not whataboutism. Not at all.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24174
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:57 am

I know many of us keep bringing up "they had two years to fund border security" but this was not even a thing until there was a serious threat from Democrats being elected. It was the lame duck session after the midterm election when all the nail biting and fretting and hatred and lying started in earnest and the blame for the REPUBLICAN shut down started.

This stupid vanity will will, apparently, stop drug addiction and violent crime by illegals. Facts say the stupid vanity will will do nothing to stop drug addiction and violent crimes by illegals is actually lower than violent crimes by legal or native born citizens.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... b51ed4287c

As a middle aged white guy, I am more concerned with being killed or robbed or assaulted by a white guy born here. That is my experience. That is what I see.
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:02 am

seb146 wrote:
and violent crimes by illegals is actually lower than violent crimes by legal or native born citizens.

So we shouldn’t vet anyone?. That’s just asinine.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Paars, Thunderboltdrgn and 20 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos