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VTKillarney
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:37 pm

I think we all know why they did not book any reporters from the San Diego area. It’s all the more transparent since they were calling reporters in the San Diego area.

I am usually very quick to give CNN the benefit of the doubt but this one smells rotten.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:40 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
I think we all know why they did not book any reporters from the San Diego area. It’s all the more transparent since they were calling reporters in the San Diego area.

I am usually very quick to give CNN the benefit of the doubt but this one smells rotten.


. You are making a story out of nothing. Just like Fox news trains it's employees to do .
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2122M
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:41 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
I think we all know why they did not book any reporters from the San Diego area. It’s all the more transparent since they were calling reporters in the San Diego area.

I am usually very quick to give CNN the benefit of the doubt but this one smells rotten.


"Smells rotten"

Well there you have it folks. Comprehensive proof that CNN is dripping in liberal bias....
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:43 pm

2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
I think we all know why they did not book any reporters from the San Diego area. It’s all the more transparent since they were calling reporters in the San Diego area.

I am usually very quick to give CNN the benefit of the doubt but this one smells rotten.


"Smells rotten"

Well there you have it folks. Comprehensive proof that CNN is dripping in liberal bias....

Please read what I have actually written and not what you WANT me to have written. All I said is that this particular incident smells rotten. I made absolutely no characterization of the network as a whole except to say that I am usually very quick to give them the benefit of the doubt. These conversations with you become very tedious when you feel entitled to misrepresent what I have said.

If you have a valid point to make surely it can be made without resorting to misrepresentations. I’d at least like to think that you can.
Last edited by VTKillarney on Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:45 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
I think we all know why they did not book any reporters from the San Diego area. It’s all the more transparent since they were calling reporters in the San Diego area.

I am usually very quick to give CNN the benefit of the doubt but this one smells rotten.


"Smells rotten"

Well there you have it folks. Comprehensive proof that CNN is dripping in liberal bias....

Please read what I have actually written and not what you WANT me to have written. All I said is that this particular incident smells rotten. I made absolutely no characterization of the network as a whole except to say that I am usually very quick to give them the benefit of the doubt. These conversations with you become very tedious when you feel entitled to misrepresent what I have said.


It smells rotten because it was written by some rotten eggs.
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:55 pm

ATC members are suing the Administration over the shutdown.
The executive actions of Trump have led to these hard working controllers having to work hard without pay.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/11/shutdow ... tion-.html

"The suit alleges the government “unlawfully deprived” the thousands of air traffic controllers of pay “without due process.”

"
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:56 pm

I'd still love to hear form a supporter of Trump how and why this is all of a sudden a national emergency when it wasn't one last year or the year before. Crossings are down in that time and some funding has been allocated for additional barriers and border security. So how can Trump justify raiding PR hurricane relief money amongst other things to pay for this?
 
MaverickM11
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:58 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
The deficit under Obama ballooned. But all of the sudden the Democrats are clutching their pearls over an expense that is a trivial percentage of the federal budget.

That tends to happen when Republicans lie their way into two wars, crater the economy, and add multiple tax cuts and bailouts on top of that. But as a moderate I'm sure you knew that. :rotfl: But let's ignore all that as I'm sure you and your tertally "moderate" republican brethren do--Trump and republicans have blown a newer, bigger hole in the deficit with a 'uge tax cut at the economy's peak. So which is it? When exactly are y'all legitimately concerned about the deficit to the point of doing something constructive about it?

casinterest wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
casinterest wrote:


Does it not bother you that Trump has used bogus statistics to justify his wall?
Does it not bother you that Trump has staged walkouts in negotiations to justify his intransigence?
Does it not bother you that Trump only pushed the shutdown after being called out by a media outlet?
Does it not bother you that Trump doesn't recognize the bogus statistics and agree to let Congress sit down and hammer out the logistics and solutions without putting hard working Americans out of a Job?

It bothers me that Pelosi and Schumer are shutting down government over something that they have already expressed their agreement to.

I trust DHS’ judgment just as I trusted their judgment under Obama. DHS has consistently seen the value of strategically placed barriers - and so have the Democrats. Trump has come WAY down on his request and is now asking for nothing more.


Pelosi and Shumer's chambers have Both Approved bills keeping the Government open. Only the Lying Trump and the backstabbing coward we know as McConnell are depriving Americans of their income.

Do you trust the Justice Department on DACA as well?

If so , let Congress work out the details. End this mindless shutdown caused by the lying racist Trump.

Quoth Trump, "" I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it". Straight from the horses' ass.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:59 pm

2122M wrote:
So how can Trump justify raiding PR hurricane relief money amongst other things to pay for this?

He hasn’t done that.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:01 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Quoth Trump, "" I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it". Straight from the horses' ass.

He’s bombastic. We’ve been over that many times.
 
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:02 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
2122M wrote:
So how can Trump justify raiding PR hurricane relief money amongst other things to pay for this?

He hasn’t done that.


That is what would happen if he used emergency funds for this as he is threatening to do. Try to keep up.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:04 pm

2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
2122M wrote:
So how can Trump justify raiding PR hurricane relief money amongst other things to pay for this?

He hasn’t done that.


That is what would happen if he used emergency funds for this as he is threatening to do. Try to keep up.

Exactly. He hasn’t done that. Try not to get too far ahead of yourself.
 
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:07 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Quoth Trump, "" I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it". Straight from the horses' ass.

He’s bombastic. We’ve been over that many times.

Ooooh "bombastic" is it? Is that what moderates are calling pathological lying now? Lemme guess--only true "moderates" like you have the divination rod to determine when what falls out of his ass is true, versus when it is false. And this time it's definitely false and the democrats' fault :roll: Seriously, who do you think you're fooling?
Last edited by MaverickM11 on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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2122M
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:08 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
He hasn’t done that.


That is what would happen if he used emergency funds for this as he is threatening to do. Try to keep up.

Exactly. He hasn’t done that. Try not to get too far ahead of yourself.


If someone pulls out a knife and says they are gong to stab me, I don't ignore them because they haven't actually stabbed me yet.

This is a thread about the shutdown and its effects. This is a possible effect. If you don't want to talk about it, you don't have to, but I would like to hear from a conservative (that's not afraid to admit they are conservative unlike you) about this potential emergency declaration and its possible justifications.
 
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:12 pm

2122M wrote:
I'd still love to hear form a supporter of Trump how and why this is all of a sudden a national emergency when it wasn't one last year or the year before. Crossings are down in that time and some funding has been allocated for additional barriers and border security. So how can Trump justify raiding PR hurricane relief money amongst other things to pay for this?


...or the decade before... or anytime in the past Century, or ever since this nation was founded almost 250 years ago, even during the eras when there were far more border crossings than there are today.

It is a "national emergency" because Limbaugh, Faux News, et al, screamed that is was a border crisis - and, more importantly, that Trump might lose support among his most racist, xenophobic base if he didn't follow through on his vanity "wall".

Trump wants to be popular, even if it is just popularity among his most deranged supporters. And he wants to use our tax dollars (an now, apparently, funds meant for disaster relief, at a time when his climate policies are leaf]ding to even more disasters) to shore-up that popularity.
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:18 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
The deficit under Obama ballooned. But all of the sudden the Democrats are clutching their pearls over an expense that is a trivial percentage of the federal budget.

That tends to happen when Republicans lie their way into two wars, crater the economy, and add multiple tax cuts and bailouts on top of that. But as a moderate I'm sure you knew that. :rotfl: But let's ignore all that as I'm sure you and your tertally "moderate" republican brethren do--Trump and republicans have blown a newer, bigger hole in the deficit with a 'uge tax cut at the economy's peak. So which is it? When exactly are y'all legitimately concerned about the deficit to the point of doing something constructive about it?

casinterest wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
It bothers me that Pelosi and Schumer are shutting down government over something that they have already expressed their agreement to.

I trust DHS’ judgment just as I trusted their judgment under Obama. DHS has consistently seen the value of strategically placed barriers - and so have the Democrats. Trump has come WAY down on his request and is now asking for nothing more.


Pelosi and Shumer's chambers have Both Approved bills keeping the Government open. Only the Lying Trump and the backstabbing coward we know as McConnell are depriving Americans of their income.

Do you trust the Justice Department on DACA as well?

If so , let Congress work out the details. End this mindless shutdown caused by the lying racist Trump.

Quoth Trump, "" I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it". Straight from the horses' ass.



Trump wants a shutdown to hurt people. Not to help. He gives lies to his base.
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:26 pm

The left is trying to have it both ways. On the one hand, they repeat the mantra that the shut down is literally destroying lives. On the other hand, they clutch their pearls at the thought that Trump could declare an emergency so we can end the shut down.

I am not a proponent of trump declaring an emergency but I recognize that the left is giving him plenty of cover to do so.
 
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:27 pm

casinterest wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
The deficit under Obama ballooned. But all of the sudden the Democrats are clutching their pearls over an expense that is a trivial percentage of the federal budget.

That tends to happen when Republicans lie their way into two wars, crater the economy, and add multiple tax cuts and bailouts on top of that. But as a moderate I'm sure you knew that. :rotfl: But let's ignore all that as I'm sure you and your tertally "moderate" republican brethren do--Trump and republicans have blown a newer, bigger hole in the deficit with a 'uge tax cut at the economy's peak. So which is it? When exactly are y'all legitimately concerned about the deficit to the point of doing something constructive about it?

casinterest wrote:

Pelosi and Shumer's chambers have Both Approved bills keeping the Government open. Only the Lying Trump and the backstabbing coward we know as McConnell are depriving Americans of their income.

Do you trust the Justice Department on DACA as well?

If so , let Congress work out the details. End this mindless shutdown caused by the lying racist Trump.

Quoth Trump, "" I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it". Straight from the horses' ass.


Trump wants a shutdown to hurt people. Not to help. He gives lies to his base.

"Wall" is one of the few things they can spell, and one of the few things they were promised, and they love the idea of the evil gubmint being shut down, no matter whom it hurts--especially themselves. His core supporters just may desert him if he doesn't give them a wall. But then again probably not.
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casinterest
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:29 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
The left is trying to have it both ways. On the one hand, they repeat the mantra that the shut down is literally destroying lives. On the other hand, they clutch their pearls at the thought that Trump could declare an emergency so we can end the shut down.

I am not a proponent of trump declaring an emergency but I recognize that the left is giving him plenty of cover to do so.


Only Trump wants to declare an emergency after lying to shut down the government. I might be more in danger of frozen Molasses than this tripe of an Emergency that Lying Racist Trump and his base have used to hijack the American political system.
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2122M
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:30 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
The left is trying to have it both ways. On the one hand, they repeat the mantra that the shut down is literally destroying lives. On the other hand, they clutch their pearls at the thought that Trump could declare an emergency so we can end the shut down.

I am not a proponent of trump declaring an emergency but I recognize that the left is giving him plenty of cover to do so.


False dichotomy. You are ignoring the correct solution where Trump agrees to re-open the government without a 5.6 Billion dollar guarantee (the House has plenty of bills ready for him if the Senate ever takes them up). Then he can negotiate on border security after.

The left cannot provide cover to declare an emergency. To declare an emergency, you need an emergency.

By the way, did you just discover the phrase 'clutching pearls' this week? You seem to have fallen in love with it lately.
 
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:33 pm

So you are saying that they shut down is not an emergency?
 
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:33 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
On the other hand, they clutch their pearls at the thought that Trump could declare an emergency so we can end the shut down.

That's a mighty nice emergency declaration you got there. It'd be a shame if it were to be used for an actual emergency like climate change or universal healthcare.
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:34 pm

Interesting. There appears to be a consensus here at the shut down is not, in and of itself, any sort of emergency.
Last edited by VTKillarney on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:35 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
So you are saying that they shut down is not an emergency?


The Shutdown is not an Emergency, It is a Travesty.In your acrobats to argue this out, I see how you have become confused with Trump's Manufactured Crisis through racist lies, and the real impacts to hard working American workers.
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:35 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
So you are saying that they shut down is not an emergency?


The shutdown is not an immigration emergency. A wall would be Trump's solution to an immigration emergency. If he thought the shutdown was an emergency, the solution would be to fund the government, but clearly he's not too worried about that.

Of course, you've shown support for Trump manufacturing an emergency in the form of a shutdown in order to win an argument over a non-urgent funding question.
Last edited by 2122M on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:36 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
That tends to happen when Republicans lie their way into two wars, crater the economy, and add multiple tax cuts and bailouts on top of that. But as a moderate I'm sure you knew that. :rotfl: But let's ignore all that as I'm sure you and your tertally "moderate" republican brethren do--Trump and republicans have blown a newer, bigger hole in the deficit with a 'uge tax cut at the economy's peak. So which is it? When exactly are y'all legitimately concerned about the deficit to the point of doing something constructive about it?


Quoth Trump, "" I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it". Straight from the horses' ass.


Trump wants a shutdown to hurt people. Not to help. He gives lies to his base.

"Wall" is one of the few things they can spell, and one of the few things they were promised, and they love the idea of the evil gubmint being shut down, no matter whom it hurts--especially themselves. His core supporters just may desert him if he doesn't give them a wall. But then again probably not.


And who exactly his core supporters are voting for next time around? The Dems? But then, Trump is a moron and he couldn’t do math, and rather just keep pandering to that 30% of voters but lose everyone else.

P.S. Still waiting for Trump to just declare emergency. It would get this whole BS over with, and once those lawsuits settle in 2020, President Beto will just reverse the policy.
 
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:36 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Interesting. There appears to be a consensus here at the shut down is not, in and of it’s self, any sort of emergency.

You want Presidents to create an emergency, in order to declare an emergency? Smart. :rotfl:
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:40 pm

casinterest wrote:

The Shutdown is not an Emergency.

Gotcha.
 
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:43 pm

Man what I wouldn't give to get all of the people in this thread in one room to hash this out. It would be hilarious.
 
2122M
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:46 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Man what I wouldn't give to get all of the people in this thread in one room to hash this out. It would be hilarious.


You used to be level headed. Would you support a National Emergency declaration by Trump to divert funds away from other emergency projects? Do you think Trump is right to freeze work and pay for 800,000 federal workers as a negotiation tactic to solve a non-urgent funding issue?
 
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:46 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
casinterest wrote:

The Shutdown is not an Emergency.

Gotcha.


Why, do you think it is?

By the way, when you have to resort to creative editing and incomplete quotes to make a point, its not a good sign.
 
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:50 pm

2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
casinterest wrote:

The Shutdown is not an Emergency.

Gotcha.


Why, do you think it is?


He just selectively quotes what he wants to see.
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:57 pm

2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
casinterest wrote:

The Shutdown is not an Emergency.

Gotcha.


Why, do you think it is?

By the way, when you have to resort to creative editing and incomplete quotes to make a point, its not a good sign.

He is the self appointed moderate Trump whisperer. When Trump says "I will take the blame" he really means "it's the Democrats fault". When Trump says there's a crisis at the border he really means "the shutdown that I've 100% self engineered is a crisis".
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:00 pm

2122M wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Man what I wouldn't give to get all of the people in this thread in one room to hash this out. It would be hilarious.


You used to be level headed. Would you support a National Emergency declaration by Trump to divert funds away from other emergency projects? Do you think Trump is right to freeze work and pay for 800,000 federal workers as a negotiation tactic to solve a non-urgent funding issue?


At one point I was in support of it, but then I went and read the congressional research office's report on the statutes dealing with National Emergencies (in its entirety). They have basically a 4 point test that helps you determine if a national emergency declaration is proper (essentially legal). I don't believe the supreme court would uphold a national emergency declaration at this time based on that 4 point test. The problem being that this is a long term, on going problem - ie, it isn't sudden or imminent. But the statutes do give a TON of leeway to the executive branch. Far more than I think is even proper (as I somewhat noted earlier in this thread on like page 6 or so). It's actually scary, if a president can somewhat justify it, they can basically suspend everything except for habeous corpus (which in the report they note has only been done once in the US history by Abraham lincoln and we were in a civil war so there's that).

I don't really want him to do it via national emergency declarations because it sets a precedent. As I said with Obama, what is done with an executive order can be undone by an executive order. There is a proper way to do this.

That being said, it's possible they may find some sort of legalese way to paint a picture of this being an emergency of some sort. Maybe that 15,000 + person caravan forming in hondorus could be used as an example. But honestly, I just don't think it'll work, and it'll just end up getting shopped to the 9th circuit and get delayed and delayed etc. Perhaps they'd be able to take it straight to the SCOTUS by saying, this is an emergency, we need a ruling immediately. But I don't think this achieves what the President wants to achieve in the long run. And I think he knows that, and I think the white house counsel knows that. So I ultimately believe that he is threatening to use this to coax lawmakers into making a deal.

Also, I'm always level headed. :mrgreen:
 
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:01 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
2122M wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
Gotcha.


Why, do you think it is?

By the way, when you have to resort to creative editing and incomplete quotes to make a point, its not a good sign.

He is the self appointed moderate Trump whisperer. When Trump says "I will take the blame" he really means "it's the Democrats fault". When Trump says there's a crisis at the border he really means "the shutdown that I've 100% self engineered is a crisis".

Image
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:07 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Also, I'm always level headed. :mrgreen:


Factually incorrect. You're a Chiefs fan.

Otherwise a good post and I agree with most of it. I think trump needs to treat this like the standard, run-of-the-mill funding negotiation it is. Shutting down the government is the wrong way to approach it and declaring an emergency is the very, very, very, wrong way to approach it.
 
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:55 pm

2122M wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Also, I'm always level headed. :mrgreen:


Factually incorrect. You're a Chiefs fan.

Otherwise a good post and I agree with most of it. I think trump needs to treat this like the standard, run-of-the-mill funding negotiation it is. Shutting down the government is the wrong way to approach it and declaring an emergency is the very, very, very, wrong way to approach it.


Unfortunately the government shutdown is one of the chips in play. I feel bad for those like ATCsundevil and others - particularly those at my local FAA office who should be doing cert paperwork right now instead of not being able to. But without any ironclad commitments to get what he wants it's the only way to force the issue. I get that there are those here who think its immoral etc. But try and see it from the other side's perspective.

Also, lets go Chiefs. Should be an interesting game this weekend given the weather.
 
2122M
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:05 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
2122M wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Also, I'm always level headed. :mrgreen:


Factually incorrect. You're a Chiefs fan.

Otherwise a good post and I agree with most of it. I think trump needs to treat this like the standard, run-of-the-mill funding negotiation it is. Shutting down the government is the wrong way to approach it and declaring an emergency is the very, very, very, wrong way to approach it.


Unfortunately the government shutdown is one of the chips in play. I feel bad for those like ATCsundevil and others - particularly those at my local FAA office who should be doing cert paperwork right now instead of not being able to. But without any ironclad commitments to get what he wants it's the only way to force the issue. I get that there are those here who think its immoral etc. But try and see it from the other side's perspective.

Also, lets go Chiefs. Should be an interesting game this weekend given the weather.


The shutdown is one of the chips in play, but to extend the poker metaphor, he's gone all-in with someone else money on a 7-2 off suit. It is irresponsible to gamble with the salaries of 800,000 other people over a non-urgent issue like a border wall. It would be different if there was a true immigration crisis, but border crossing numbers are down and there is not real threat to America or American's that rises to this level. Not even close. Now we have potential outcomes like a credit downgrading and an interruption of emergency supplies to 'real' emergencies on top of the very real issues of federal workers trying to make ends meet.

All this after he backed out of a deal last minute in December and just told Lindsey Graham to go pound sand when Graham and other republican senators approached him with an idea to end the shutdown.

In order to think that 5.9 Billion dollars of border wall is worth all this kerfuffle, you have to believe there is an urgent and extreme immigration crisis. And if you didn't believe that was the case last year or the year before, you cannot believe that is the case now as the problem is only getting smaller every year.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:07 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Unfortunately the government shutdown is one of the chips in play. I feel bad for those like ATCsundevil and others - particularly those at my local FAA office who should be doing cert paperwork right now instead of not being able to.

I also feel extremely sorry for these people. That said, this is something that goes with the territory if you accept a job with the federal government. Shutdowns have not originated with Trump, Pelosi and Schumer. As upsetting as a shutdown may be, no federal employee can claim that they are a surprise. A prudent employee would take precautions in the event that a shutdown happens since the risk is known.
 
2122M
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:13 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Unfortunately the government shutdown is one of the chips in play. I feel bad for those like ATCsundevil and others - particularly those at my local FAA office who should be doing cert paperwork right now instead of not being able to.

I also feel extremely sorry for these people. That said, this is something that goes with the territory if you accept a job with the federal government. Shutdowns have not originated with Trump, Pelosi and Schumer. As upsetting as a shutdown may be, no federal employee can claim that they are a surprise. A prudent employee would take precautions in the event that a shutdown happens since the risk is known.


This is the longest shutdown since 1996 and is about to be the longest ever. A shut down long enough to caused missed paychecks is very, very rare. You are far more likely to be furloughed or laid-off in the private sector.

But don't worry, I know it benefits your outlook on this to minimize or dismiss the hardships caused by the shutdown.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:28 pm

2122M wrote:
This is the longest shutdown since 1996 and is about to be the longest ever. A shut down long enough to caused missed paychecks is very, very rare. You are far more likely to be furloughed or laid-off in the private sector.

But don't worry, I know it benefits your outlook on this to minimize or dismiss the hardships caused by the shutdown.

Your personal jabs aside, all I am saying is that it is prudent for a federal employee to take precautions in the event of a shutdown. If you disagree with that statement, fine. I believe it is a good idea. You don't have to.

I didn't think that this would be a particularly contentious concept, but it's ANet, after all.
 
2122M
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:34 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
2122M wrote:
This is the longest shutdown since 1996 and is about to be the longest ever. A shut down long enough to caused missed paychecks is very, very rare. You are far more likely to be furloughed or laid-off in the private sector.

But don't worry, I know it benefits your outlook on this to minimize or dismiss the hardships caused by the shutdown.

Your personal jabs aside, all I am saying is that it is prudent for a federal employee to take precautions in the event of a shutdown. If you disagree with that statement, fine. I believe it is a good idea. You don't have to.


You are trying to say that federal employees in particular need to be careful because this sort of thing happens (even though the likelihood of being furloughed is lower in a federal job than a private one). In doing so, you are attempting to blame the victims of this shutdown for not being prepared. I can only imagine you are doing this because you are looking for any way to move blame for their hardship away from the president.

You can tell me I'm making that up and putting words in your mouth, but I'm 100% positive I'm not. Again, I'm just pulling the curtain back.
 
salttee
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:35 pm

A bizzare fact about this is that most of Trump's base are delighted that the government is shut down; they would like to see it completely destroyed if possible. They are not forward thinking enough to look at what might happen after that. In essence, they have taken on the strategic plans of Joe Stalin or Admiral Yamamoto, they want to destroy the United States. Because they think their property taxes are too high I guess. Or something like that.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:36 pm

2122M wrote:
In order to think that 5.9 Billion dollars of border wall is worth all this kerfuffle, you have to believe there is an urgent and extreme immigration crisis. And if you didn't believe that was the case last year or the year before, you cannot believe that is the case now as the problem is only getting smaller every year.


To be fair, didn't Trump say something like, don't give me another bill like this one? Personally I've been wanting a solution to all of our immigration issues at once. It needs to be done. We need to put politics aside and realize it is a serious problem. Everything from Everify to a border wall needs to be discussed.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:38 pm

salttee wrote:
A bizzare fact about this is that most of Trump's base are delighted that the government is shut down; they would like to see it completely destroyed if possible. They are not forward thinking enough to look at what might happen after that. In essence, they have taken on the strategic plans of Joe Stalin or Admiral Yamamoto, they want to destroy the United States. Because they think their property taxes are too high I guess. Or something like that.


I wouldn't say delighted is quite the right word, but I would be lying if I didn't disclose that several of my conservative coworkers said they hoped it goes on indefinitely (at the same time they noted that private companies are temporarily picking up some of the slack in some national park locations). I did point out to them though, that the ability for us to get our aircraft delivered and get type certificates issued are currently at stake because of the shutdown. Difficult to do that when our FAA counterparts are at home.
 
2122M
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:39 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Personally I've been wanting a solution to all of our immigration issues at once. It needs to be done. We need to put politics aside and realize it is a serious problem. Everything from Everify to a border wall needs to be discussed.


You'll get full agreement from most people on this. most of us would prefer Air Traffic Controllers get paid while it's hashed out though.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:41 pm

2122M wrote:

You are trying to say that federal employees in particular need to be careful because this sort of thing happens (even though the likelihood of being furloughed is lower in a federal job than a private one). In doing so, you are attempting to blame the victims of this shutdown for not being prepared. I can only imagine you are doing this because you are looking for any way to move blame for their hardship away from the president.

You can tell me I'm making that up and putting words in your mouth, but I'm 100% positive I'm not. Again, I'm just pulling the curtain back.

Your personal jabs aside, all I said is that it is prudent for a federal employee to prepare for the possibility of a government shutdown. That is all I said, and I stand by that statement. Read what I have written carefully, and do not read what you WANT me to have written.

I stand by my comment. It is prudent for a federal employee to prepare for the possibility of a shutdown.

I get that you really want to argue about this. I don't. 99.99% of people would agree with my comment. I just happened to find the 0.01%.
 
2122M
Posts: 990
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:44 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
2122M wrote:

You are trying to say that federal employees in particular need to be careful because this sort of thing happens (even though the likelihood of being furloughed is lower in a federal job than a private one). In doing so, you are attempting to blame the victims of this shutdown for not being prepared. I can only imagine you are doing this because you are looking for any way to move blame for their hardship away from the president.

You can tell me I'm making that up and putting words in your mouth, but I'm 100% positive I'm not. Again, I'm just pulling the curtain back.

Your personal jabs aside, all I said is that it is prudent for a federal employee to prepare for the possibility of a government shutdown. That is all I said, and I stand by that statement. Read what I have written carefully, and do not read what you WANT me to have written.

I stand by my comment. It is prudent for a federal employee to prepare for the possibility of a shutdown.

I get that you really want to argue about this. I don't. 99.99% of people would agree with my comment. I just happened to find the 0.01%.


Would you agree that all people in all jobs everywhere should be prepared for the possibility of losing that job? I'm guess so. And if so, why single out federal employees here. Why bring it up at all? What solutions do you recommend for these employees?

Face it, it was a bad attempt at victim-blaming to get some of the dirt off Trump, whom you believe to be acting prudently by putting all these folks out of work. And I don't need to convince you that you were doing that. You KNOW you were dong that. I just like to point it out so everyone else is aware of the kind of games you play.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:49 pm

2122M wrote:
Would you agree that all people in all jobs everywhere should be prepared for the possibility of losing that job?

Face it, it was a bad attempt at victim-blaming to get some of the dirt off Trump, whom you believe to be acting prudently by putting all the folks out of work.

Your personal jabs aside, this is a discussion of furloughs, not terminations. I do not believe that anyone is going to be terminated here. I'm trying to keep the discussion to the topic at hand.

I know that you are only thinking on a single plane, so let me burst that limitation for you.

Two things can be true at once:
1) A prudent federal employee ought to prepare for the possibility of a furlough.
2) It can be very unfortunate that federal employees have to go through a furlough.
 
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Tugger
Posts: 8609
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Re: The Shutdown Part 2 - reasons, effects and details

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:52 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Good old CNN.

https://www.kusi.com/cnn-requests-kusi- ... all-works/

Interesting quote from the article:
“We have continuously been told by Border Patrol Agents that the barrier along the Southern border helps prevent illegal entries, drugs, and weapons from entering the United States, and the numbers prove it.”

Why don’t Democrats respect federal workers by listening to them?

Yes, a barrier. As you have referred to as well. However interestingly now you seem to be reverting to "wall" again. Can you confirm that you prefer proper barriers and not a 30 foot wall? "The wall" as proposed by Trump and demoed with samples last year, is not going to be built. And I will work with fellow Republican's to make that so. The 30 foot monstrosity is a waste and ridiculous.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin

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