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Tugger
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GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:14 pm

GMO: Genetically Modified Organism

I myself am fine with eating GMO food and crops. I get the very real danger that can come from this but also think it can help the world. I think one of the biggest issues with GMO is "owned" food crops (doesn't everyone love Monsanto, now part of Bayer?) and the fear some have that you won't be able to eat without paying a corporation for the privilege. (And honestly I think another fear some people have is that GMO will likely allow more people to exist on the planet , so fears of overpopulation.)

Now scientists are succeeding in efforts to improve the growth of plants/food crops:

"Scientists engineer shortcut for photosynthetic glitch, boost crop growth by 40 percent"
https://phys.org/news/2019-01-scientist ... boost.html

I think GMO will just increase and will vastly improve crop yields etc. over the coming decades.

So what are your thoughts?

Tugg
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VTKillarney
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:20 pm

GMO crops are one of the best inventions in the history of mankind.

If you have an issue with potential ownership concerns, your issue is with patent laws and not with GMO crops in general.

Those who are opposed to GMO crops have two things in common:
1) They are science deniers.
2) They have no problem watching the poor suffer horrible diseases that could be prevented and have no problem watching people die who could be saved.
 
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mbmbos
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:27 pm

Many GMO crops are modified in order to survive weed and bug killing chemicals. Eating GMO foods means you are most likely consuming produce that has been heavily treated with pesticides and herbicides.

That's my problem with GMO foods.
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casinterest
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:33 pm

mbmbos wrote:
Many GMO crops are modified in order to survive weed and bug killing chemicals. Eating GMO foods means you are most likely consuming produce that has been heavily treated with pesticides and herbicides.

That's my problem with GMO foods.


But some GMO's are actually more resistant to weeds and bugs, so the need for pesticides and herbicides are reduced.

GMO's are good for farmers that have to weather the change in climate as it allows them to grow more drought/flood resistant plans with higher yields.

There are dangers with GMO's as at the end of the day you have created a new organism that may crossbread or end the original organism.
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Tugger
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:34 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
GMO crops are one of the best inventions in the history of mankind.

If you have an issue with potential ownership concerns, your issue is with patent laws and not with GMO crops in general.

Those who are opposed to GMO crops have two things in common:
1) They are science deniers.
2) They have no problem watching the poor suffer horrible diseases that could be prevented and have no problem watching people die who could be saved.

Well I don't think such language really help any discussion and really just leads to combative conversation: "No I'm not!" "Yes, you are!" ... and on.

In my opinion GMO has many potential problems along with great promise. Being able to genetically change life is a big deal, and there needs to be controls and care taken when releasing any such change "into the wild". This is not any kind of denial of science, it is reality, it is smart.

On the question of patent laws.... then change them.... I'm waiting.... Well? The modern world thankfully functions in a structure of laws and so what the laws are and how they treat certain things greatly impacts their use and availability (for a really divisive example, look at guns...). Right now in the USA at least, genetic changes can be owned, and any challenge to that can be tied up in courts for years and/or bankrupt entities trying to change or affect that. There is a lot of money involved. So change won't come easily in my opinion. But there do need to be laws, and there does need to be tools in the law that allow for creative uses of GMO to be explored (read: done so profitably in some manner) and controls in place for how these things will be treated.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:45 pm

Tugger wrote:
In my opinion GMO has many potential problems along with great promise. Being able to genetically change life is a big deal, and there needs to be controls and care taken when releasing any such change "into the wild". This is not any kind of denial of science, it is reality, it is smart.

Again, your concern is not with GMOs, but with the laws surrounding their testing and implementation.

GMOs are an incredible invention. Period. If my language is harsh, I make no apologies. Those who are opposed to GMOs are, quite simply, in favor of needless death and suffering. They are scum science deniers.
 
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Tugger
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:51 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Tugger wrote:
In my opinion GMO has many potential problems along with great promise. Being able to genetically change life is a big deal, and there needs to be controls and care taken when releasing any such change "into the wild". This is not any kind of denial of science, it is reality, it is smart.

Again, your concern is not with GMOs, but with the laws surrounding their testing and implementation.

GMOs are an incredible invention. Period.

Actually no, that is not accurate. To whit: So you are saying that a GMO that allows for uncontrolled growth of dangerous weeds would be "an incredible invention"? That is what your absolutist statement could imply. GMO ultimately also covers disease micro-organisms as well (not really the point of my discussion though), controls and care is needed.

And no, I don't think you are trying to say that. I suspect that you actually only support helpful "good" changes to plant and food genetics. And laws are what will guide that. So laws are an integral part of the situation with GMO's.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:57 pm

Tugger wrote:
Actually no, that is not accurate. To whit: So you are saying that a GMO that allows for uncontrolled growth of dangerous weeds would be "an incredible invention"?


Too much acetaminophen will kill you. That does not mean that acetaminophen is anything but a great invention.

But to play your pedantic game, let me clarify my statement. GMO crops that are designed to reduce instances of death and disease are one of the world's greatest inventions. Inasmuch as GMO crops can be engineered to do bad things, I fully support laws that prohibit the release of any such product. Sailing ships could do bad things (e.g. - make war), but we didn't outlaw those or call them bad inventions.

Golden Rice, for example, is a truly amazing invention. I defy anyone to come up with a reason why it is not.
Last edited by VTKillarney on Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Tugger
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:58 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
, let me clarify my statement. GMO crops that are designed to reduce instances of death and disease are one of the world's greatest inventions.

Golden Rice, for example, is a truly amazing invention. I defy anyone to come up with a reason why it is not.

Thanks, yes, I get that and agree.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:01 pm

Tugger wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
, let me clarify my statement. GMO crops that are designed to reduce instances of death and disease are one of the world's greatest inventions.

Golden Rice, for example, is a truly amazing invention. I defy anyone to come up with a reason why it is not.

Thanks, yes, I get that and agree.

Tugg

And I should not have been so grumpy. I just have a real problem with people of privilege ignoring science while allowing people to suffer harmlessly.
 
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cranberrysaus
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:09 pm

Technically we've been growing genetically modified crops for thousands of years. We can just do it a little more precisely now.
 
tommy1808
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:15 pm

Tugger wrote:
So what are your thoughts?


Totally fine with them as long as their is some certification requirement/legal enviroment that ensures

a) no one will be forced to pay fees for anything but deliberate use of that crop, not even if most of its DNA made it into over into other plant life.
b) that it can be managed, I.e. not having been made so robust that it can become a pest.
c) have at least the same nutritional value* as the naturally evolved/breed variants, so there is no incentive to favor pure growth of value.
d) demonstrate the ability to remove the inhibiting factor to make a breed infertile in the field, if horizontally transferred out of that breed.

Best regards
Thomas

*use dependent. If made for food that would be calories/vitamins and such, if designed for methanol/ethanol production different goals would be fine and so on
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:16 pm

GMO foods are probably the best way forward to feed the evergrowing population and I have no problems with it being fit for human consumption.

The only worry I have is the potential impact on native species if non-sterile GM organisms got loose into the environment.
 
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Tugger
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:23 pm

Erebus wrote:
GMO foods are probably the best way forward to feed the evergrowing population and I have no problems with it being fit for human consumption.

The only worry I have is the potential impact on native species if non-sterile GM organisms got loose into the environment.

Well "invasive species" have been a problem for the whole time life has existed on earth. Just now with humans we move things much faster than nature does so such invasions happen much faster and more often.

As the growing population, that is the most interesting thing about the GMO change that go me to start this discussion. It currently show to allow a plant to grow 40% more/faster but most importantly: with the same amount of water!

Water is a huge limiting factor for life on the planet. access to and use of and the ability for nature (versus human industry) to recycle that water for reuse is the big issue for the future population.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
Redd
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:28 pm

GMO foods aren't about saving the world, they're about creating a monopoly on the growing of crops. If anyone wants to dispute that please look into all of the court cases around the world where Monsanto (now owned by Bayer I believe) sued farmers into bankruptcy for patent infringement, in cases where the farmers didn't want to plant Monsanto (GMO) seed. Canada and India have many well known cases.

Next, studies have shown that GMO foods tested on animals: "“Several animal studies indicate serious health risks associated with genetically modified (GM) food (AAEM 2009),” including infertility, immune problems, accelerated aging, faulty insulin regulation, and changes in major organs and the gastrointestinal system."

That's not taking into account that the companies, mainly Monsanto which produce GMO's are chemical companies and are interested in selling the chemical fertilizers and pesticides to which their GMO crops are resistant, allowing farmers to spray high amounts of it (in most cases Round-Up (Glyphosate) a Monsanto company chemical to which their crop is resistant to) leaving higher concentrations of chemicals in GMO foods than non-GMO. Not to mention the effect on the environment where the spraying takes place, ground water, etc....

GMO crops also don't produce seed at harvest time, where for thousands of years farmers have relied successfully on the seed gathered after harvest to plant crops the next season, now are forced to buy seeds every time they want to grow from the GMO company they're buying from, once again Monsanto. So the GMO companies have engineered the crop so the farmer has to buy seeds from them every growing cycle, and has to use their chemicals to treat for weeds and pests.

Somehow, most of the world was fine before GMO and GMO still doesn't solve the problem of droughts and other 'acts of God', so the real question is to look at the motives of the companies and their histories to realize what drives them. Looking at Monsanto we can see that it's a company which will produce anything to turn a profit, one just has to look back to Vietnam and the Agent Orange chemical which is still having horrible effects on the health of people which were sprayed and their offspring. A company which knowingly produced and sold a chemical herbicide which was being sprayed on people with horrible health effects on a mass scale.

The food lobby funded largely by Monsanto spent 101 million USD in 2015 to keep GMO labels out of the supermarkets and consumer's hands, if they're spending that much money specifically to stop consumers from making a conscious choice about their food instead of educating the public about a supposedly safe crop it should also raise some questions for all of you supporters.

Me, I'll stick to eating non-GMO and still be happy that my country doesn't allow it to be grown, for now....
 
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:39 pm

Tugger wrote:
It currently show to allow a plant to grow 40% more/faster but most importantly: with the same amount of water!

Water is a huge limiting factor for life on the planet. access to and use of and the ability for nature (versus human industry) to recycle that water for reuse is the big issue for the future population.

Tugg


You bring up an excellent point. But if we really want to reduce water usage we'd reduce/eliminate our meat consumption. More than half of grain grown in the USA and about 40% world wide is used to feed livestock, not to mention the water actually used to raise livestock, the land erosion, the majority of rainforest deforestation is used for grazing land for cattle. etc.,,, Not to mention the soy and corn grown to feel livestock.
 
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:45 pm

Redd wrote:
You bring up an excellent point. But if we really want to reduce water usage we'd reduce/eliminate our meat consumption. More than half of grain grown in the USA and about 40% world wide is used to feed livestock, not to mention the water actually used to raise livestock, the land erosion, the majority of rainforest deforestation is used for grazing land for cattle. etc.,,, Not to mention the soy and corn grown to feel livestock.

The beauty of GMOs is that we can now have our meat AND have sufficient water for crops. A win-win!
 
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:51 pm

If I were to place a GMO apple, an organic apple, and a regular apple in front of people, no one would be able to tell which one is which. I don't have a problem with eating any of them, provided the GMO ones haven't been proven to give me stomach cancer or something.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:54 pm

Redd wrote:
Next, studies have shown that GMO foods tested on animals: "“Several animal studies indicate serious health risks associated with genetically modified (GM) food (AAEM 2009),” including infertility, immune problems, accelerated aging, faulty insulin regulation, and changes in major organs and the gastrointestinal system."


Throwing out a quote from this website ( https://responsibletechnology.org/gmo-e ... lth-risks/ ) is about as unconvincing as you can get. Alex Jones' website has more respect for science.

Can you actually cite the studies that are the underpinning of this claim so we can asses them?

It's also important to note that GMO crops have been on the market for decades and none of those problems have occurred in humans. Something tells me that the results in those "studies" were either background noise or not caused by GMOs.
Last edited by VTKillarney on Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:55 pm

Redd wrote:
GMO crops also don't produce seed at harvest time,



Please, do research before posting nonesense. https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/20 ... eds-busted

Trust me, as someone from Kansas, they will reproduce. There's many logistical issues with how crops are harvested these days that make reusing your own seeds too costly anyways.

Besides think critically about that. A lot of crops we harvest for their seeds. Why plant a field of wheat if it's just for straw?
 
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:14 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Redd wrote:
GMO crops also don't produce seed at harvest time,



Please, do research before posting nonesense. https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/20 ... eds-busted

Trust me, as someone from Kansas, they will reproduce. There's many logistical issues with how crops are harvested these days that make reusing your own seeds too costly anyways.

Actually the fact that the GMO crops do produce seed and do reproduce is actually at the core of what has created a lot of problems for Kansas (and other states of course) farmers that did/do not wish to use "owned" seed crops is that the seed can be and has been carried to their farm from a neighboring field and is now in their crop yield. Monsanto/Bayer has sued for any "unpaid" use of their patented GMO product and the farmers have lost court battle after court battle. Or been unable to even afford such a battle and forced to capitulate and pay.

I really do not agree with the "Monsanto Model" for crop seed, not the corporate abuse that does truly occur (I get that the corporation does deserve to be compensated for their seed and product but I feel it is an abusive, monopolistic situation - not unlike what chicken farmers also experience under the thumb or the huge chicken agro-business), I feel tehre needs to be a lot of change to the laws on this but the agro-industry has fought it and the farmer has not been united enough to get anything changed or fixed.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
apodino
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:35 pm

I am an organic guy myself and one of the things that saddens me is that I believe only about 5 percent of all farms in the US are organic. To me...it seems when you chemically treat stuff, it eventually will have a lasting impact on not only the crops, but remnants of the chemicals will end up being consumed by us. Monsanto was mentioned. There is a reason why class action lawsuits are now being filed against them related to Round Up.

The biggest reason why GMOs are out there is economies of scale. While talk of everyone at the top getting wealthy at the expense of the other 95 percent belongs in another threat, let me just say that Economies of Scale is the biggest flaw in capitalism, and it leads to this phenomena. And because these companies like Monsanto are the ones with armies of lobbyists in Washington, it is easy to see what this leads to.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:39 pm

Tugger wrote:
Actually the fact that the GMO crops do produce seed and do reproduce is actually at the core of what has created a lot of problems for Kansas (and other states of course) farmers that did/do not wish to use "owned" seed crops is that the seed can be and has been carried to their farm from a neighboring field and is now in their crop yield. Monsanto/Bayer has sued for any "unpaid" use of their patented GMO product and the farmers have lost court battle after court battle. Or been unable to even afford such a battle and forced to capitulate and pay.
.

Tugg



Didn't read my link did you Tugg? I agree seed spreading and cross contamination is an issue. But my link discusses that issue in regards to patent infringement.
 
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Aesma
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:45 pm

I await the proof that GMOs have improved the life of anybody, particularly poor people.

It seems to me it has mostly led to death and destruction, along with suicide.

I'm not denying any science, nuclear weapons are also nice technology (and not that complicated), doesn't make it good.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Redd
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:41 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Redd wrote:
You bring up an excellent point. But if we really want to reduce water usage we'd reduce/eliminate our meat consumption. More than half of grain grown in the USA and about 40% world wide is used to feed livestock, not to mention the water actually used to raise livestock, the land erosion, the majority of rainforest deforestation is used for grazing land for cattle. etc.,,, Not to mention the soy and corn grown to feel livestock.

The beauty of GMOs is that we can now have our meat AND have sufficient water for crops. A win-win!

I wouldn't be so optimistic, it's not just water which is a problem but the land erosion, deforestation, CO2 associated with raising livestock, processing and transport. Also, as the population is growing we're raising more and more livestock to feed more people which will negate any savings in water usage GMO does create. But meat and livestock is a whole other thread in itself so I'll leave it there.
 
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:43 pm

Tugger wrote:
Monsanto/Bayer has sued for any "unpaid" use of their patented GMO product and the farmers have lost court battle after court battle.

Again, your issues are with patent law, not with GMOs.

That said, Monsanto has never sued a farmer when trace amounts of their patented seeds or traits were present in the farmer’s field as an accident or as a result of inadvertent means. If farmers have used their product without paying for it, I'm having a hard time sympathizing with the farmers. There are other options out there, after all.
 
Redd
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:46 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Redd wrote:
Next, studies have shown that GMO foods tested on animals: "“Several animal studies indicate serious health risks associated with genetically modified (GM) food (AAEM 2009),” including infertility, immune problems, accelerated aging, faulty insulin regulation, and changes in major organs and the gastrointestinal system."


Throwing out a quote from this website ( https://responsibletechnology.org/gmo-e ... lth-risks/ ) is about as unconvincing as you can get. Alex Jones' website has more respect for science.

Can you actually cite the studies that are the underpinning of this claim so we can asses them?

.


I wasn't quoting that website, that exact quote is taken from the a research paper published in the Annals of Agriculture and Environmental Medicine, 2009, if you pasted it into google and cherry picked a site to discredit it that's not going to work. It's quoted in articles, as you see when you google the quote, on countless other websites.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:52 pm

apodino wrote:
I am an organic guy myself and one of the things that saddens me is that I believe only about 5 percent of all farms in the US are organic. To me...it seems when you chemically treat stuff, it eventually will have a lasting impact on not only the crops, but remnants of the chemicals will end up being consumed by us. Monsanto was mentioned. There is a reason why class action lawsuits are now being filed against them related to Round Up.

That doesn't sadden me in the slightest. We simply can't feed the earth's population with organic farming. If we tried, millions and millions would die. More would suffer. It's nice that you come from a place of privilege, but most of the world doesn't.

Also, organic farming uses pesticides. There are over 20 chemicals commonly used in the growing and processing of organic crops that are approved by the US Organic Standards. The top two organic fungicides, copper and sulfur, are used at a rate of 4 and 34 pounds per acre. In contrast, synthetic fungicides only require a rate of 1.6 lbs per acre, less than half the amount of the organic alternatives. This is concerning since the research has shown that "natural" pesticides present the same level of risk as synthetic pesticides.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:54 pm

Aesma wrote:
I await the proof that GMOs have improved the life of anybody, particularly poor people.

It seems to me it has mostly led to death and destruction, along with suicide.

I'm not denying any science.


Actually, you are denying science. Period. Full stop.

https://share.america.gov/scientists-ge ... ave-lives/

https://newrepublic.com/article/135617/ ... ht-already

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an ... iency.html

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2018 ... ave-lives/

https://alumni.berkeley.edu/california- ... -americans
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:58 pm

Redd wrote:
I wasn't quoting that website, that exact quote is taken from the a research paper published in the Annals of Agriculture and Environmental Medicine, 2009, if you pasted it into google and cherry picked a site to discredit it that's not going to work. It's quoted in articles, as you see when you google the quote, on countless other websites.


So... do you have the title and the authors of the paper so we all can take a look at it? Or is this just supposed to be some sort of fun mystery?
 
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Aesma
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:07 pm

Didn't see any science in your links. Open letters are not science. There are lists of stated goals, not scientific reviews of results.

I don't have a firm opinion on golden rice, as long as it isn't grown and fed in my country, but it seems to me the goal is to ensure people continue to eat an unbalanced diet. It's not the fault of these people probably, but are we being prepared for a future eating entirely artificial food with all the needed nutriments ?

In Africa farmers are growing GMO cotton where no cotton should be grown, instead of the food they used to grow. When global prices of cotton fall, because some trader or some algorithm decided on it in Chicago, these farmers don't earn a living, and go without food. Great, isn't it ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:11 pm

Aesma wrote:
Didn't see any science in your links.

He who does not open his eyes cannot see.
 
afcjets
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:10 pm

mbmbos wrote:
Many GMO crops are modified in order to survive weed and bug killing chemicals. Eating GMO foods means you are most likely consuming produce that has been heavily treated with pesticides and herbicides.

That's my problem with GMO foods.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
 
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DocLightning
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:18 pm

mbmbos wrote:
Many GMO crops are modified in order to survive weed and bug killing chemicals. Eating GMO foods means you are most likely consuming produce that has been heavily treated with pesticides and herbicides.

That's my problem with GMO foods.


Not even remotely true and this is utter propaganda from the Organic Food industry. The point of GE crops is to reduce the need to spray expensive pesticides and herbicides. That said, certain crops will be killed by herbicides, so resistance genes can be inserted to allow them to be used. Other GE crops are engineered to make their own proteins that are toxic to certain insects (Bt, for example) so as to reduce the need for pesticides.

Aesma wrote:
In Africa farmers are growing GMO cotton where no cotton should be grown, instead of the food they used to grow. When global prices of cotton fall, because some trader or some algorithm decided on it in Chicago, these farmers don't earn a living, and go without food. Great, isn't it ?


By that argument, we shouldn't be flying airplanes because it put shipyards out of business.
apodino wrote:
I am an organic guy myself and one of the things that saddens me is that I believe only about 5 percent of all farms in the US are organic


Organic crops use MORE chemicals that have not been tested for environmental safety as much because they are "naturally-occurring." The trouble with this is that they don't occur naturally in the amounts used in organic farming. Spinosad and rotenone are both organic-approved pesticides.

You've fallen for the Organic industry's marketing scheme, which would lead you to believe that all organic crops consist of heirloom strains and are grown with nothing more than broken eggshells and coffee grounds as pesticides. But that ain't how it is. It costs more money, uses more land, and causes more environmental destruction, all just so that they can sell rich people a thing that is no healthier or more nutritious than a conventional crop.

Redd wrote:
Next, studies have shown that GMO foods tested on animals: "“Several animal studies indicate serious health risks associated with genetically modified (GM) food (AAEM 2009),” including infertility, immune problems, accelerated aging, faulty insulin regulation, and changes in major organs and the gastrointestinal system."


Any scientist who read the "studies" cited in thar article (from a very disreputable website) can instantly tell that they're forgeries. The problem is *proving* that they're forgeries.

If you actually understand how genes and genetic material work, the claims make no sense (no plausibility) and also we have not seen these effects in the population.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
afcjets
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:24 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
apodino wrote:
I am an organic guy myself and one of the things that saddens me is that I believe only about 5 percent of all farms in the US are organic. To me...it seems when you chemically treat stuff, it eventually will have a lasting impact on not only the crops, but remnants of the chemicals will end up being consumed by us. Monsanto was mentioned. There is a reason why class action lawsuits are now being filed against them related to Round Up.

That doesn't sadden me in the slightest. We simply can't feed the earth's population with organic farming. If we tried, millions and millions would die. More would suffer. It's nice that you come from a place of privilege, but most of the world doesn't.

Would more people die or would more people not be born? There is a difference. At some point the world can only support so many people. Who knows what the cap is.
 
afcjets
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:35 pm

DocLightning wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
Many GMO crops are modified in order to survive weed and bug killing chemicals. Eating GMO foods means you are most likely consuming produce that has been heavily treated with pesticides and herbicides.

That's my problem with GMO foods.


Not even remotely true and this is utter propaganda from the Organic Food industry. The point of GE crops is to reduce the need to spray expensive pesticides and herbicides. That said, certain crops will be killed by herbicides, so resistance genes can be inserted to allow them to be used.


That sounds remotely true then lol. Anyhow it's nice Monsanto is genitically modifying crops to reduce their revenue from pesticides. ;)
 
aviationaware
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:37 pm

Without GMO crops there would be no way we could feed 7+ billion people. Case closed at that point really. Usually the people who get most upset about GMO crops are the same nutters who go on about how developing countries aren't allowed to catch up to us. Pro tip: Without GMOs they REALLY won't be able to. We'd be back to famines and all that North Korean crap. GG morons.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:03 pm

afcjets wrote:

That sounds remotely true then lol. Anyhow it's nice Monsanto is genitically modifying crops to reduce their revenue from pesticides. ;)


No, not remotely true. Crops are not "drenched" in expensive pesticides. Maybe you can tell me what the acceptable limits are and how much, say, glyphosate is applied per acre or hectare. (I know the answer, but maybe if you have to look it up yourself, you might get a glimpse of how much information there is and how complex this topic is.)

Pesdicides are not really Monsanto's main business. They still market and sell glyphosate under their "RoundUp" brand, but some 20 other manufacturers also sell this product.

Their main business is crops. Not just GE ones, either. Monsanto's business model is to market seeds for cultivars, many of which are heirloom. Part of the technology that GE firms employ is maintenance of strains by using genetic testing to ensure purity and consistency.

Molecular biology is not something that I can teach in a forum post. It's complicated and it takes years of study to understand even the basics of these systems.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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trpmb6
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:15 pm

This has turned into my favorite forum post of 2019 so far. I need some GMO popcorn for this.

Thanks for your contributions to the thread Doc, several times I was trying to find the right way to articulate some of the points you've made, and you've done so in a much more intellectual way (and then some).
 
Redd
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:42 am

VTKillarney wrote:
Redd wrote:
I wasn't quoting that website, that exact quote is taken from the a research paper published in the Annals of Agriculture and Environmental Medicine, 2009, if you pasted it into google and cherry picked a site to discredit it that's not going to work. It's quoted in articles, as you see when you google the quote, on countless other websites.


So... do you have the title and the authors of the paper so we all can take a look at it? Or is this just supposed to be some sort of fun mystery?



I haven't checked, but the reference (GM) food (AAEM 2009) in the quote states that it has been published in the Annals of Agriculture and Environmental Medicine. But actually checking their website I can't find the research paper.... strange.. http://www.aaem.pl/Issue-2-2009,2523
 
flyguy89
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:50 am

VTKillarney wrote:
GMO crops are one of the best inventions in the history of mankind.

If you have an issue with potential ownership concerns, your issue is with patent laws and not with GMO crops in general.

Those who are opposed to GMO crops have two things in common:
1) They are science deniers.
2) They have no problem watching the poor suffer horrible diseases that could be prevented and have no problem watching people die who could be saved.

:checkmark: :thumbsup: Well-put, could not agree with you more. They're right up there with anti-vaccers and climate deniers. GMO crops have been nothing short of miraculous in helping to feed the world.
 
Redd
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:50 am

DocLightning wrote:



Pesdicides are not really Monsanto's main business. They still market and sell glyphosate under their "RoundUp" brand, but some 20 other manufacturers also sell this product.

.
[/quote]

I'll do some more digging on their site to find more up to date figures, but Latin American 1st quarter sales from 2008 show that their Round-Up Sales & other chemical sales are higher than their total seed and genomic sales. I wonder what the numbers are for 2018 and if that number is a reflection of annual total sales and in other regions of the world.. Seems difficult to find the actual annual figures, sales broken down by product.

https://monsanto.com/news-releases/high ... r-results/
 
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Jouhou
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:29 am

Posting before reading the whole thread: there's nothing wrong with GMOs. There is something wrong with putting a patent on a living organism capable of reproducing.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:13 pm

Now that I've read the thread, jfc people I understand where your fears are coming from when it comes to the things you eat, but when it comes to agricultural products GMOs should be the least of your concerns.

I became a vegetarian when I was 15. That was the year I worked my first job at a lab as an intern data analyst in R&D (yeah, that's a damn cushy job for a 15 year old, let me explain, my mom was a chemist there and the guy who hired me onto his project was a stereotypical mad scientist type with a weak spot for encouraging young people to develop their talents)

It doesn't take long in an R&D environment focusing on animal diagnostic testing (pets & livestock) that the majority of the world's meat supply is increasingly contaminated with nasty pathogens that happen to produce toxins that won't be destroyed by heat. The rapid spread likely has to do with the cramped and often un-hygienic conditions the animals live in, and some large farms trying to get sneaky and give animals feed containing remains of their own species (I'm pretty sure this practice is banned in most of the world, doesn't mean there aren't people out there who blow off laws and regulations).

Most of the people I knew at that lab either went vegetarian or swore by locally farmed (and tested) meat.

Example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4894645/
Officially the link between Crohns disease and MAP is "suspected"

Nearly 20 years ago now, in the lab it was pretty much treated as fact. It was also acknowledged the reason why it wasn't being publicized or treated as a more certain thing is because it would DEVASTATE the beef and dairy industries. Globally. The beef and dairy industry are major customers to any lab researching MAP.

Worry about your meat before you bother worrying about your grains and produce.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:01 pm

If GMO is the best innovation, what next, edible cardboard and packing peanuts. Those over produced carbs are killing people. I am guessing the world would have addressed the starvation issue some other non-GMO way without morbid obesity and ubiquitous diabetes.

And about the other miracle invention feeding the world called Glyphosate, some states banned the product, we are having a buy one get one free sale in Michigan.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:11 pm

The main thing wrong with GMO (and I am otherwise greatly in favor) is Monsanto (and maybe DuPont). In their own way they are anti-science and deniers of evolution. In just a several years weeds have evolved to resist Roundup. That is a result I anticipated when the first GMO main crops were announced. The second thing they did is what has killed GMO for several decades. They successfully worked at making it illegal to require GMO labels on food. This was a short term victory but it destroyed GMO around much of the world. A tragedy. Consumers should have a right to know what is in their food, and where it is grown. Period. And GMO and radiated food, milk from cows given certain hormones should be allowed.

I, a liberal believer in the power of markets, naively believed that GMO products would successfully compete with non-GMO because they would be better and less expensive. But no, the two evil chemo-bio firms succeeded in destroying a market comparison - more or less " We F....ing well have developed this GMO grains and you F...ing well will have to eat it, and it is non of your GDB as to whether it is GMO or not".

I asked the FredMeyer produce guy where the apples were, he asked "organic", no, I want the manufactured ones. There is some doubt that organic farming is a real help to the problems of feeding the world. But it is for sure that some of the things organic farmers do should be done by all farmers. David Montgomery wrote Dirt, the Erosion of Civilization. It discusses the problems with a lot of farming in the past. A few years ago he did what amounted to an update: Growing a Revolution: Bringing Our Soil Back to Life, he was amazed at how quickly some farming techniques can build up the soil is just years. He is an academic at U of WA.
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salttee
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:37 pm

Here's a potential 40% production gain.

Scientists improve on photosynthesis by genetically engineering plants
https://www.latimes.com/science/science ... story.html

What do you think about this?
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:23 pm

salttee wrote:
Here's a potential 40% production gain.

Scientists improve on photosynthesis by genetically engineering plants
https://www.latimes.com/science/science ... story.html

What do you think about this?

Fantastic news.
 
flyguy89
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:35 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
They successfully worked at making it illegal to require GMO labels on food. This was a short term victory but it destroyed GMO around much of the world. A tragedy. Consumers should have a right to know what is in their food, and where it is grown. Period. And GMO and radiated food, milk from cows given certain hormones should be allowed.

Just clarifying here they've been fighting labeling laws that would force labeling of GMO products. Private businesses are still perfectly free to label GMO products if they so choose. More importantly though, labeling laws do impose costs, inefficiencies...and their effectiveness is often debatable at best. If there's no rational or scientific basis for needing to single out GMOs, what's the point? Most of the labeling laws are meant to exploit the unfounded fears generated by the anti-science crowd.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 2442
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Re: GMO crops - good or not?

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:24 pm

The basis for labeling is that consumers overwhelmingly want it. That is enough. Most of the fears are that DuPont and Monsanto have given the world very little reason to trust them.
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