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Jouhou
Posts: 1964
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:59 pm

PPVRA wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

You obviously don’t get squat that article has published, partly not your fault because the article itself has bungled the explanation.

Trump’s alteration to the law is merely one of timing of when those deductions are allowed to take place. Those deductions have always occured, only they had to be distributed over a number of years. What Trump allowed is for all of this deduction be taken in the year the aircraft if purchased, all at once.

This was first called accelerated depreciation, and Trump dialed the accelerated up to full and immediate.

It simplifies the law, it gives economic benefits, and it doesn’t cost the government a single penny in tax revenue.


That does not give "economic benefits", at least not the kind that do any good for the rest of us.

The GOP should have opted for infrastructure instead, that would have generated benefits for everyone.

The one promise Trump made that made sense to everyone, he didn't follow through on. Just gave tax cuts to the wealthy.


It increases demand for capital goods, which in turn increases demand for labor = more jobs = less unemployment = up pressure on wages.

Of course, this is but one thing in a vastly complex economy. No one should expect this alone to fix everyone’s problems.


Yeah you know what has that effect, but to a greater benefit? Infrastructure.

What you are describing is us lowly middle class being fed breadcrumbs. Trickle down is a failure, it was proven false before and it's being proven false again. When will people learn?
 
NIKV69
Posts: 12647
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:41 pm

BN747 wrote:

You prove my friend's correct assumption re:Chump supporters , they idolize him because he's just like them, chauvinistic, zero knowledge, no concept of self-improvement, anti-intellectualism and how young women should jsut look pretty and nothing else... the simpler things are the better why work your brain that hard.


BN747


I don't idolize him and that wasn't your friends assumption. The soundbite that people that voted for Trump are stupid and one tooth gun loving racist bigots is fed to you and your friend from MSNBC and CNN and actually is wrong. Plenty of sources out there that tell us that it was the independent voter that voted for Obama in 2012 voted for Trump in 2016 and was the difference, the independent voter and not the fringe is who picks presidents. You should know this. I seriously doubt they are the stupid and the Archie Bunkers you describe. That's ok your Trump derangement tells you these things to make you accept what happened in the election of 2016 as a way to cope with the fact smart people didn't want Hilary and the Obama policies of higher taxes, nanny state and open borders.

You can call me and others that voted Trump here stupid, anti woman red necks but it actually shows how ill informed you are. That excuse is as bad as the popular vote argument. It is used by pundits that go on TV to sell their crappy books and to try to campaign for jobs in DC or on the networks because they can't get a job otherwise. I know you believe if you recite something enough people will believe it and the fringe will. Let us just be glad those Obama voters that voted Trump didn't buy your horse hockey. :footinmouth:
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die,
 
seb146
Posts: 20247
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:00 pm

Wacker1000 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Exactly Z-E-R-O!!!! of that has to do with socialism. If you read and know anything at all about the political movements, you would know that. Socialism is a four-letter-word made up by Republicans to scare the low information base.


Ahhh your favorite - the Republican boogeyman!

But seriously, how do you figure?


For decades, Republicans have been insisting that if we just give more and more to the very wealthy, everything will pay for itself. When is that going to start? People are dying out here. People can not afford education. People can not afford homes. People can not afford health care. All because of this misguided belief that the rich will give back to everyone. How's that working out?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
BN747
Posts: 6540
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:02 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
BN747 wrote:

You prove my friend's correct assumption re:Chump supporters , they idolize him because he's just like them, chauvinistic, zero knowledge, no concept of self-improvement, anti-intellectualism and how young women should jsut look pretty and nothing else... the simpler things are the better why work your brain that hard.


BN747


I don't idolize him and that wasn't your friends assumption. The soundbite that people that voted for Trump are stupid and one tooth gun loving racist bigots is fed to you and your friend from MSNBC and CNN and actually is wrong. Plenty of sources out there that tell us that it was the independent voter that voted for Obama in 2012 voted for Trump in 2016 and was the difference, the independent voter and not the fringe is who picks presidents. You should know this. I seriously doubt they are the stupid and the Archie Bunkers you describe. That's ok your Trump derangement tells you these things to make you accept what happened in the election of 2016 as a way to cope with the fact smart people didn't want Hilary and the Obama policies of higher taxes, nanny state and open borders.

You can call me and others that voted Trump here stupid, anti woman red necks but it actually shows how ill informed you are. That excuse is as bad as the popular vote argument. It is used by pundits that go on TV to sell their crappy books and to try to campaign for jobs in DC or on the networks because they can't get a job otherwise. I know you believe if you recite something enough people will believe it and the fringe will. Let us just be glad those Obama voters that voted Trump didn't buy your horse hockey. :footinmouth:


And Trump Delusion Syndrome comes across from your mouth, brain and keyboard, you are not or nowhere near 'those independents' who voted for Trump, they showed in the 2018 election last Nov. to show their regrets. You have way more people voting in 2016 than in 2018 ... and yet 6+ million more voted against him in addition to the same 3 million he last to Clinton. Ouch..that hurt.

Try as you might, you cannot chalk a 6 +Million gain against your man as some sort of victory using Trump math...don't tell me you got suckered into Trump University too! Well, I wouldn't be surprised.

But this article seems to simplify things...

Trump voters are selfish — and they love him because they identify with him
https://www.rawstory.com/2019/01/trump- ... -identify/

And it holds accuracy to you and those like you to the letter,

Trump Supporters are like him
Selfish
Greedy (money, money, money)
Despise Strong women
Anti-intellectualism
Irrational fear of people different from you (xenophobic)
Racist
...just plain scared of everything.

That's him and that's you. I'm not stating it...your own words painted your portrait, go look at what you've written in sharing your opinions, you are fooling anyone trying act like you aren't these things, we're not blind, we can read (unfortunately you people don't read enough. He's painted his national portrait with his mouth...that is way more people (in a lesser election) showed up to send a message.

You can't hate on me all you want, I had no role in in shaping your warped small-minded views....you did that shit all on your own, stop trying to put lipstick on a pig and say it's presentable..it isn't.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:18 pm

Jouhou wrote:
bgm wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

Again this is something you made up in your head. Nobody is afraid of her.


You say that, but your actions clearly speak otherwise. Just read what Flighty said. That's an old man that is threatened by her.


I'm still going with the confused boner theory. They find her attractive but also see her as the enemy and don't know what to do with their boners.

He (flighty) does seem mildly aroused, he mentions she needs the guidance of a more experienced person.


Ahaha yeah she is nice looking, but beauty is extremely common. As a public figure I think we should focus on her looks because that is what she brings to the table. Am I the only person who is calling that correctly? It’s not a point of confusion for me.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8205
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:33 pm

Jouhou wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

That does not give "economic benefits", at least not the kind that do any good for the rest of us.

The GOP should have opted for infrastructure instead, that would have generated benefits for everyone.

The one promise Trump made that made sense to everyone, he didn't follow through on. Just gave tax cuts to the wealthy.


It increases demand for capital goods, which in turn increases demand for labor = more jobs = less unemployment = up pressure on wages.

Of course, this is but one thing in a vastly complex economy. No one should expect this alone to fix everyone’s problems.


Yeah you know what has that effect, but to a greater benefit? Infrastructure.

What you are describing is us lowly middle class being fed breadcrumbs. Trickle down is a failure, it was proven false before and it's being proven false again. When will people learn?


What are you smoking? I tried to explain one thing you were obviously misinformed on.

IMO, the USA has way too much infrastructure. It’s just really poorly managed, not just poorly maintained. But that’s a debate for another thread!
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Jouhou
Posts: 1964
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:43 pm

PPVRA wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

It increases demand for capital goods, which in turn increases demand for labor = more jobs = less unemployment = up pressure on wages.

Of course, this is but one thing in a vastly complex economy. No one should expect this alone to fix everyone’s problems.


Yeah you know what has that effect, but to a greater benefit? Infrastructure.

What you are describing is us lowly middle class being fed breadcrumbs. Trickle down is a failure, it was proven false before and it's being proven false again. When will people learn?


What are you smoking? I tried to explain one thing you were obviously misinformed on.

IMO, the USA has way too much infrastructure. It’s just really poorly managed, not just poorly maintained. But that’s a debate for another thread!


Really? Have you checked the condition of the nation's bridges lately? The transit agencies of our major cities? Even privately owned infrastructure is in horrible shape. We have thousands of miles of gas pipeline to replace in New england. Almost every region of the country has inadequate electricity transmission infrastructure. Water and sewer lines suffer the same issues as natural gas pipelines in older cities.

How about the implementation of PTC on the nation's railways? How many times has that been delayed, and how many derailments could it have prevented?
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8205
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:53 pm

Jouhou wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Yeah you know what has that effect, but to a greater benefit? Infrastructure.

What you are describing is us lowly middle class being fed breadcrumbs. Trickle down is a failure, it was proven false before and it's being proven false again. When will people learn?


What are you smoking? I tried to explain one thing you were obviously misinformed on.

IMO, the USA has way too much infrastructure. It’s just really poorly managed, not just poorly maintained. But that’s a debate for another thread!


Really? Have you checked the condition of the nation's bridges lately? The transit agencies of our major cities? Even privately owned infrastructure is in horrible shape. We have thousands of miles of gas pipeline to replace in New england. Almost every region of the country has inadequate electricity transmission infrastructure. Water and sewer lines suffer the same issues as natural gas pipelines in older cities.

How about the implementation of PTC on the nation's railways? How many times has that been delayed, and how many derailments could it have prevented?


Again, what are you smoking? Did I say everything was a-ok and well maintained? I did not, right?

The freight rail industry is catching up on investments after decades of horrible government economic regulations. Still a lot of work to do, no doubt. But they’re investing billions every year.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
flyguy89
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Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:01 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Wacker1000 wrote:
zkojq wrote:

So it's impossible to have universal healthcare in a large country? Someone should tell that to Germany or Japan!



If you add the population of Germany and Japan, you are still about 115 million people short of the US.


seb146 wrote:
Exactly Z-E-R-O!!!! of that has to do with socialism. If you read and know anything at all about the political movements, you would know that. Socialism is a four-letter-word made up by Republicans to scare the low information base.


Ahhh your favorite - the Republican boogeyman!

But seriously, how do you figure?

Everything costs something and that cost is getting passed down to us. There is a reason tax rates are higher in socialist countries. In some cases in may work in your favor, in others it may not. You're also putting the same people in charge of healthcare (and lets be realistic - that is the only part of socialism people latch on to) that can't deliver a pieces of mail in a timely or effective manner. If they don't want to pay because you cost too much, you die (or they drag you along for months until you are too sick to actually be cared for because it is the government). It probably isn't a bad system for basic stuff but that basic stuff isn't what leads people towards wanting socialism for its universal healthcare.

Also isn't it ironic that most of the medical breakthroughs do not come from socialist countries? What does that say about the system? Now apply that to every other field the government would be responsible for overseeing.

This is the exact same reason why the aviation industry has historically been a financial disaster - as long as you are guaranteed to be okay, you don't try. It has only taken four decades to partially fix the first four decades and there is still a long way to go.


As has been mentioned repeatedly, the US's days of middle class prosperity were accompanied by a tax rate of 50-70% on the ultra wealthy. These days, "tax cut" bills are all about taking from the poor and giving to the rich, socialism for the wealthy. Maybe, just maybe, the oligarchs who control our country have pushed Americans too far and this yearning for the old days of taxing the rich is a byproduct of that.

And as has been pointed out ad nauseam, the actual tax rates paid by the rich during that time were roughly half that 70-90% statutory rate. By all means though, pretend like nothing in the world has changed since the 1950s and 60s...it's about as amusing as Trump's MAGA policies that you think policies from 60 years ago are as relevant today with China on the march, India on the rise, Africa coming into play, and Latin America on an upward trajectory....this isn't your grandparents' world.

seb146 wrote:
Wacker1000 wrote:
2122M wrote:

Aren’t the democratic-socialist countries in Northern Europe constantly rated as the happiest and healthiest countries in the world?


Happiest because they don't know any better or happiest and healthiest because they are the population of an average US state and many of them have oil and other natural resources to help fund the socialist initiatives?

We're talking the difference between taking care of <10 million people for many of these Northern Europe countries versus 325 million people.


These are the same countries that have the most fair and balanced media and education systems and mass shootings are almost non-existent. If 325 million people could have affordable health care, affordable education, a living wage, and no mass shootings, you say they would be miserable? Let's test that theory, shall we?

EDIT:

Exactly Z-E-R-O!!!! of that has to do with socialism. If you read and know anything at all about the political movements, you would know that. Socialism is a four-letter-word made up by Republicans to scare the low information base.

It's less about population than it is about culture. The Northern European countries you refer to are all pretty much the least-diverse countries in the world: around 95% white and 95% of the same culture group. Consensus and trust are easy when that's the sandbox you're playing in. Now compared to the U.S. which has 20x the population and exponentially more diversity in values, culture, ethnicities, geography, needs...you're never going to get Scandinavian-style governance here. Period. What's more, Sweden nearly experienced financial collapse in the 90s because of the even more expansive socialist policies it used to maintain. Sweden essentially did a big u-turn, privatisation and major deregulation initiatives (including-gasp-partial privatization of social security!). Denmark too has had to undergo similar transformation, such that Denmark and Sweden are now considered lower regulated more economically free countries than even the U.S. So, if you want to get onboard with partially privatizing entitlements and further deregulating the economy in exchange for some higher taxes, that's fine by me!
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:02 pm

Jouhou wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Yeah you know what has that effect, but to a greater benefit? Infrastructure.

What you are describing is us lowly middle class being fed breadcrumbs. Trickle down is a failure, it was proven false before and it's being proven false again. When will people learn?


What are you smoking? I tried to explain one thing you were obviously misinformed on.

IMO, the USA has way too much infrastructure. It’s just really poorly managed, not just poorly maintained. But that’s a debate for another thread!


Really? Have you checked the condition of the nation's bridges lately? The transit agencies of our major cities? Even privately owned infrastructure is in horrible shape. We have thousands of miles of gas pipeline to replace in New england. Almost every region of the country has inadequate electricity transmission infrastructure. Water and sewer lines suffer the same issues as natural gas pipelines in older cities.

How about the implementation of PTC on the nation's railways? How many times has that been delayed, and how many derailments could it have prevented?


Agree with your stunning indictment of government laziness and ineffective management. If you are trying to say government budgets are too "low" then you must not understand math, but I think you do and you are just laying blame where it really belongs: programmatic dysfunction and systematic waste in government.

The US federal, state and local governments already get enough money to do everything they need to do six times over. Just because they fail doesn't mean money is one of the problems. Not uncommonly, the problem is too much money. Not too little.

seb146 wrote:
Wacker1000 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Exactly Z-E-R-O!!!! of that has to do with socialism. If you read and know anything at all about the political movements, you would know that. Socialism is a four-letter-word made up by Republicans to scare the low information base.


Ahhh your favorite - the Republican boogeyman!

But seriously, how do you figure?


For decades, Republicans have been insisting that if we just give more and more to the very wealthy, everything will pay for itself. When is that going to start? People are dying out here. People can not afford education. People can not afford homes. People can not afford health care. All because of this misguided belief that the rich will give back to everyone. How's that working out?


A couple of points. 1. By "give," you probably mean "taking anything less than 80% of tax revenue from the top 10%" The idea that people getting rich was good is not incorrect. That is how your city was built. Universities were started, corporations employed people like me or you, either directly or through taxes.

The government in the US already has sufficient money to provide universal healthcare and a very fine education. The money is there now. But, the will to use it in a way that benefits YOU is not there. Because the people with their hands on that money gain nothing by helping YOU. The issue you are getting at is corruption, not funding. Some countries have both problems. We do not. We have a huge corruption issue. The funding we have (that the affluent already provide) is superb. And we are lucky to have a system where some people grow affluent. I am not a defender of billionaires really, but I will defend a private sector middle & upper middle class all day long. Very few countries have that.

So I am not trying to tell you people who are suffering and dying will have great days ahead. I expect things to get worse, as corruption intensifies. People like ACO want to transfer trillions of dollars creating untold opportunities for diversion. Every mafia leader surely hears about this money and rejoices at the opportunities. As we become more like Russia, China with a super government/mafia that also controls all business. Certain characters stand to gain! But not regular people
 
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johnboy
Topic Author
Posts: 3039
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 9:09 pm

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:19 pm

zkojq wrote:
johnboy wrote:
Yep. Lame protestations notwithstanding.


Well, that would explain a lot. Probably made the alt account so that, post impeachment, he can claim to have never supported Trump.


Oh yes, I remember the proud post discussing the name change, even though he said he just had this name for the past 11 months. Sometimes you just have to know how to read people - it's not that he "joined" 11 months ago, the name change was 11 months ago. Tricky Rabbit!
 
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Jouhou
Posts: 1964
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:21 pm

Flighty wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

What are you smoking? I tried to explain one thing you were obviously misinformed on.

IMO, the USA has way too much infrastructure. It’s just really poorly managed, not just poorly maintained. But that’s a debate for another thread!


Really? Have you checked the condition of the nation's bridges lately? The transit agencies of our major cities? Even privately owned infrastructure is in horrible shape. We have thousands of miles of gas pipeline to replace in New england. Almost every region of the country has inadequate electricity transmission infrastructure. Water and sewer lines suffer the same issues as natural gas pipelines in older cities.

How about the implementation of PTC on the nation's railways? How many times has that been delayed, and how many derailments could it have prevented?


Agree with your stunning indictment of government laziness and ineffective management. If you are trying to say government budgets are too "low" then you must not understand math, but I think you do and you are just laying blame where it really belongs: programmatic dysfunction and systematic waste in government.

The US federal, state and local governments already get enough money to do everything they need to do six times over. Just because they fail doesn't mean money is one of the problems. Not uncommonly, the problem is too much money. Not too little.

seb146 wrote:
Wacker1000 wrote:

Ahhh your favorite - the Republican boogeyman!

But seriously, how do you figure?


For decades, Republicans have been insisting that if we just give more and more to the very wealthy, everything will pay for itself. When is that going to start? People are dying out here. People can not afford education. People can not afford homes. People can not afford health care. All because of this misguided belief that the rich will give back to everyone. How's that working out?


A couple of points. 1. By "give," you probably mean "taking anything less than 80% of tax revenue from the top 10%" The idea that people getting rich was good is not incorrect. That is how your city was built. Universities were started, corporations employed people like me or you, either directly or through taxes.

The government in the US already has sufficient money to provide universal healthcare and a very fine education. The money is there now. But, the will to use it in a way that benefits YOU is not there. Because the people with their hands on that money gain nothing by helping YOU. The issue you are getting at is corruption, not funding. Some countries have both problems. We do not. We have a huge corruption issue. The funding we have (that the affluent already provide) is superb. And we are lucky to have a system where some people grow affluent. I am not a defender of billionaires really, but I will defend a private sector middle & upper middle class all day long. Very few countries have that.


Most of the "waste" is piles of paperwork because the public demands accountability. The insinuation that government employees are "lazy" is just insulting. As someone who has made personal sacrifices for the government i'm once again calling bullshit.

Also the middle class are not private jet owners.
 
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johnboy
Topic Author
Posts: 3039
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 9:09 pm

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:24 pm

Flighty wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

What are you smoking? I tried to explain one thing you were obviously misinformed on.

IMO, the USA has way too much infrastructure. It’s just really poorly managed, not just poorly maintained. But that’s a debate for another thread!


Really? Have you checked the condition of the nation's bridges lately? The transit agencies of our major cities? Even privately owned infrastructure is in horrible shape. We have thousands of miles of gas pipeline to replace in New england. Almost every region of the country has inadequate electricity transmission infrastructure. Water and sewer lines suffer the same issues as natural gas pipelines in older cities.

How about the implementation of PTC on the nation's railways? How many times has that been delayed, and how many derailments could it have prevented?


Agree with your stunning indictment of government laziness and ineffective management. If you are trying to say government budgets are too "low" then you must not understand math, but I think you do and you are just laying blame where it really belongs: programmatic dysfunction and systematic waste in government.

The US federal, state and local governments already get enough money to do everything they need to do six times over. Just because they fail doesn't mean money is one of the problems. Not uncommonly, the problem is too much money. Not too little.

seb146 wrote:
Wacker1000 wrote:

Ahhh your favorite - the Republican boogeyman!

But seriously, how do you figure?


For decades, Republicans have been insisting that if we just give more and more to the very wealthy, everything will pay for itself. When is that going to start? People are dying out here. People can not afford education. People can not afford homes. People can not afford health care. All because of this misguided belief that the rich will give back to everyone. How's that working out?


A couple of points. 1. By "give," you probably mean "taking anything less than 80% of tax revenue from the top 10%" The idea that people getting rich was good is not incorrect. That is how your city was built. Universities were started, corporations employed people like me or you, either directly or through taxes.

The government in the US already has sufficient money to provide universal healthcare and a very fine education. The money is there now. But, the will to use it in a way that benefits YOU is not there. Because the people with their hands on that money gain nothing by helping YOU. The issue you are getting at is corruption, not funding. Some countries have both problems. We do not. We have a huge corruption issue. The funding we have (that the affluent already provide) is superb. And we are lucky to have a system where some people grow affluent. I am not a defender of billionaires really, but I will defend a private sector middle & upper middle class all day long. Very few countries have that.

So I am not trying to tell you people who are suffering and dying will have great days ahead. I expect things to get worse, as corruption intensifies. People like ACO want to transfer trillions of dollars creating untold opportunities for diversion. Every mafia leader surely hears about this money and rejoices at the opportunities. As we become more like Russia, China with a super government/mafia that also controls all business. Certain characters stand to gain! But not regular people



I actually agree with you in a way, but it's not the government, it's the mafia-esque people we have in the White House right now, along with the military industrail complex. Since corporations seem to be people now, according to neoliberalism, we need to start looking at all the endless money going down the drain in these so-called "black box" ops, AND in wasted tax cuts to them.

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!! (THE REAL ONES)
 
seb146
Posts: 20247
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:23 am

flyguy89 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Wacker1000 wrote:

Happiest because they don't know any better or happiest and healthiest because they are the population of an average US state and many of them have oil and other natural resources to help fund the socialist initiatives?

We're talking the difference between taking care of <10 million people for many of these Northern Europe countries versus 325 million people.


These are the same countries that have the most fair and balanced media and education systems and mass shootings are almost non-existent. If 325 million people could have affordable health care, affordable education, a living wage, and no mass shootings, you say they would be miserable? Let's test that theory, shall we?

EDIT:

Exactly Z-E-R-O!!!! of that has to do with socialism. If you read and know anything at all about the political movements, you would know that. Socialism is a four-letter-word made up by Republicans to scare the low information base.

It's less about population than it is about culture. The Northern European countries you refer to are all pretty much the least-diverse countries in the world: around 95% white and 95% of the same culture group. Consensus and trust are easy when that's the sandbox you're playing in. Now compared to the U.S. which has 20x the population and exponentially more diversity in values, culture, ethnicities, geography, needs...you're never going to get Scandinavian-style governance here. Period. What's more, Sweden nearly experienced financial collapse in the 90s because of the even more expansive socialist policies it used to maintain. Sweden essentially did a big u-turn, privatisation and major deregulation initiatives (including-gasp-partial privatization of social security!). Denmark too has had to undergo similar transformation, such that Denmark and Sweden are now considered lower regulated more economically free countries than even the U.S. So, if you want to get onboard with partially privatizing entitlements and further deregulating the economy in exchange for some higher taxes, that's fine by me!


Race has nothing to do with it, either. I think it does have to do with culture. Americans are raised to believe that only being self-sufficient will make the country better. Europeans understand that they are only as good as the weakest among them.

That and being told every day for decades that all that wealth given to the ~1% will come back to us all. Which it will not.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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WarRI1
Posts: 13014
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:11 am

Berevoff wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Some of us have engaged with the mods on this. It seems there is some combination of mods policing threads and forum glitches that is resulting in threads and posts disappearing without the standard mod statement attached.


I do not think it is too much to ask to be told if we violate a rule.


You're being way to hard on them. Don't forget they're all volunteers working for the greater good while burning the midnight oil so we can all have a wonderful, safe place to talk about certain things they deem acceptable without providing any semblance of what that actually means. Its all personal discretion so just contact them privately and discuss your concerns out of the public eye before you comment further. The audacity of your post is shocking if I'm honest.



I replied to your reply here last night, another mysterious disappearance??? What the hell!
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2551
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:31 am

seb146 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

These are the same countries that have the most fair and balanced media and education systems and mass shootings are almost non-existent. If 325 million people could have affordable health care, affordable education, a living wage, and no mass shootings, you say they would be miserable? Let's test that theory, shall we?

EDIT:

Exactly Z-E-R-O!!!! of that has to do with socialism. If you read and know anything at all about the political movements, you would know that. Socialism is a four-letter-word made up by Republicans to scare the low information base.

It's less about population than it is about culture. The Northern European countries you refer to are all pretty much the least-diverse countries in the world: around 95% white and 95% of the same culture group. Consensus and trust are easy when that's the sandbox you're playing in. Now compared to the U.S. which has 20x the population and exponentially more diversity in values, culture, ethnicities, geography, needs...you're never going to get Scandinavian-style governance here. Period. What's more, Sweden nearly experienced financial collapse in the 90s because of the even more expansive socialist policies it used to maintain. Sweden essentially did a big u-turn, privatisation and major deregulation initiatives (including-gasp-partial privatization of social security!). Denmark too has had to undergo similar transformation, such that Denmark and Sweden are now considered lower regulated more economically free countries than even the U.S. So, if you want to get onboard with partially privatizing entitlements and further deregulating the economy in exchange for some higher taxes, that's fine by me!


Race has nothing to do with it, either. I think it does have to do with culture. Americans are raised to believe that only being self-sufficient will make the country better. Europeans understand that they are only as good as the weakest among them.

That and being told every day for decades that all that wealth given to the ~1% will come back to us all. Which it will not.

Americans en masse aren't raised like that. It varies family to family, cultural group to cultural group. To the extent the idea of being able to support oneself is popular likely has more to do with competency. But there is no monolithic belief there as you suggest. What you're not getting is that the U.S. is and always will be a pluralistic society. We are the most diverse (in almost every category) society in the world. Western Europe, particularly Scandinavia, is very homogeneous with almost no concept of or need for pluralism. Unless you want to close the borders to all immigration and enforce some sort of cultural "reeducation," you're always going to live in a society of varying and sometimes conflicting beliefs and values.
 
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Berevoff
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:41 am

WarRI1 wrote:
Berevoff wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:

I do not think it is too much to ask to be told if we violate a rule.


You're being way to hard on them. Don't forget they're all volunteers working for the greater good while burning the midnight oil so we can all have a wonderful, safe place to talk about certain things they deem acceptable without providing any semblance of what that actually means. Its all personal discretion so just contact them privately and discuss your concerns out of the public eye before you comment further. The audacity of your post is shocking if I'm honest.



I replied to your reply here last night, another mysterious disappearance??? What the hell!


Must be another "glitch" in the forums software. They've been working on the bugs for the last few years so just give them some time to figure things out. Its not like the developers of the site own hundreds of other forms and have widespread knowledge of that sort of thing. Cut them a break. I think its best we don't look too much into this because we might fall victim to a glitch ourselves.
 
seb146
Posts: 20247
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:37 am

flyguy89 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
It's less about population than it is about culture. The Northern European countries you refer to are all pretty much the least-diverse countries in the world: around 95% white and 95% of the same culture group. Consensus and trust are easy when that's the sandbox you're playing in. Now compared to the U.S. which has 20x the population and exponentially more diversity in values, culture, ethnicities, geography, needs...you're never going to get Scandinavian-style governance here. Period. What's more, Sweden nearly experienced financial collapse in the 90s because of the even more expansive socialist policies it used to maintain. Sweden essentially did a big u-turn, privatisation and major deregulation initiatives (including-gasp-partial privatization of social security!). Denmark too has had to undergo similar transformation, such that Denmark and Sweden are now considered lower regulated more economically free countries than even the U.S. So, if you want to get onboard with partially privatizing entitlements and further deregulating the economy in exchange for some higher taxes, that's fine by me!


Race has nothing to do with it, either. I think it does have to do with culture. Americans are raised to believe that only being self-sufficient will make the country better. Europeans understand that they are only as good as the weakest among them.

That and being told every day for decades that all that wealth given to the ~1% will come back to us all. Which it will not.

Americans en masse aren't raised like that. It varies family to family, cultural group to cultural group. To the extent the idea of being able to support oneself is popular likely has more to do with competency. But there is no monolithic belief there as you suggest. What you're not getting is that the U.S. is and always will be a pluralistic society. We are the most diverse (in almost every category) society in the world. Western Europe, particularly Scandinavia, is very homogeneous with almost no concept of or need for pluralism. Unless you want to close the borders to all immigration and enforce some sort of cultural "reeducation," you're always going to live in a society of varying and sometimes conflicting beliefs and values.


I really want to not just visit Europe but experience Europe because I don't get it. The closest I have come is Canada. Vancouver is very Asian, specifically China. There is much diversity around Canada; the parts I have been to anyway. But, everyone is as one. They do their own thing and celebrate their own culture.

Race has nothing to do with anything unless you are Republican.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:29 am

Berevoff wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
Berevoff wrote:

You're being way to hard on them. Don't forget they're all volunteers working for the greater good while burning the midnight oil so we can all have a wonderful, safe place to talk about certain things they deem acceptable without providing any semblance of what that actually means. Its all personal discretion so just contact them privately and discuss your concerns out of the public eye before you comment further. The audacity of your post is shocking if I'm honest.



I replied to your reply here last night, another mysterious disappearance??? What the hell!


Must be another "glitch" in the forums software. They've been working on the bugs for the last few years so just give them some time to figure things out. Its not like the developers of the site own hundreds of other forms and have widespread knowledge of that sort of thing. Cut them a break. I think its best we don't look too much into this because we might fall victim to a glitch ourselves.



Trust me, I do not go out of my way to harass anyone doing their job, 42 years in Unions might explain that. If it is truly a "glitch", no problem. If I am being harassed, well that I do not like of course. Now of course my fellow travelers harassing me on the forum, they can expect the same from me. That I truly enjoy, that is why I am on here, to discuss, and maybe, just maybe enlighten my fellow A Net contributors. :scratchchin: ;)
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:30 am

seb146 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Race has nothing to do with it, either. I think it does have to do with culture. Americans are raised to believe that only being self-sufficient will make the country better. Europeans understand that they are only as good as the weakest among them.

That and being told every day for decades that all that wealth given to the ~1% will come back to us all. Which it will not.

Americans en masse aren't raised like that. It varies family to family, cultural group to cultural group. To the extent the idea of being able to support oneself is popular likely has more to do with competency. But there is no monolithic belief there as you suggest. What you're not getting is that the U.S. is and always will be a pluralistic society. We are the most diverse (in almost every category) society in the world. Western Europe, particularly Scandinavia, is very homogeneous with almost no concept of or need for pluralism. Unless you want to close the borders to all immigration and enforce some sort of cultural "reeducation," you're always going to live in a society of varying and sometimes conflicting beliefs and values.


I really want to not just visit Europe but experience Europe because I don't get it. The closest I have come is Canada. Vancouver is very Asian, specifically China. There is much diversity around Canada; the parts I have been to anyway. But, everyone is as one. They do their own thing and celebrate their own culture.

Race has nothing to do with anything unless you are Republican.

I highly encourage it. Canada is probably the Western country that comes closest to the U.S. in terms of diversity, but they're still far from the likes of Sweden et al, and I would certainly hesitate to use the "as one" characterization with them (e.g. Quebec separatists and the whole dual-official language deal). The problem is at a macro view, the U.S. cannot be effectively centrally governed top-down (and thankfully so IMO) unlike a small European country. Progressives should have embraced federalism and pluralism instead of trying to implement their policies centrally at the federal level. Had the federal government been kept smaller and more limited to the areas that made sense (i.e. defense, diplomacy, regulating interstate commerce, etc.), the federal tax burden would be much lower and the states would have significantly more breathing room to levy taxes and raise revenue for their own initiatives. Take Vermont, Colorado and California for example where state-led initiatives for single-payer healthcare schemes failed when voters balked at the state tax increases on top of their federal taxes that would have been required to fund it. Were the federal tax burden smaller, we could have likely seen single-payer healthcare in the U.S. (and other progressive policy initiatives) play out by now.

Race, of course, inherently has nothing to do with it. But race is often a characteristic of ethnicities and cultural groups. The only reason I pointed it out was to highlight the homogeneity of most Western European countries whose borders are generally defined along ancient tribal lines (e.g. the Nordics/Vikings were caucasian, Sweden is overwhelmingly of that culture group and is therefore overwhelmingly caucasian).
 
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zkojq
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:43 am

Wacker1000 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Wacker1000 wrote:
We're talking the difference between taking care of <10 million people for many of these Northern Europe countries versus 325 million people.
So it's impossible to have universal healthcare in a large country? Someone should tell that to Germany or Japan!


If you add the population of Germany and Japan, you are still about 115 million people short of the US.


So? :roll:

Wacker1000 wrote:
You're also putting the same people in charge of healthcare (and lets be realistic - that is the only part of socialism people latch on to) that can't deliver a pieces of mail in a timely or effective manner.

What a stupid thing to say. The management of the postal service has nothing to do with healthcare. Suggesting that the service levels at one government agency must relate to that of another is blatantly stupid. The fact that my passport took less than 24 hours to be processed, created and then delivered doesn't mean that my garbage collection will be on time.

Wacker1000 wrote:
Also isn't it ironic that most of the medical breakthroughs do not come from socialist countries? What does that say about the system?

Significant medical breakthroughs came from Nazi Germany because they allowed live testing on human subjects. Obviously this means that fascism is the best form of government. Those folks didn't let regulation get in the way of innovation! :roll:

Jouhou wrote:
Trickle down is a failure, it was proven false before and it's being proven false again. When will people learn?

seb146 wrote:
For decades, Republicans have been insisting that if we just give more and more to the very wealthy, everything will pay for itself. When is that going to start? People are dying out here. People can not afford education. People can not afford homes. People can not afford health care. All because of this misguided belief that the rich will give back to everyone. How's that working out?


Trickle down economics works (St Ronald Reagan said so), its just that nobody ever implements it right! /s

flyguy89 wrote:
It's less about population than it is about culture. The Northern European countries you refer to are all pretty much the least-diverse countries in the world: around 95% white and 95% of the same culture group. Consensus and trust are easy when that's the sandbox you're playing in.


America has black people and Native Americans; good governance is therefore impossible? :roll: Anyway, according to the far right-wing brain trust, all the Scandinavian countries are overrun with Muslim immigrants from Syria and economic migrants from Africa, so I'm not even sure how that logic fits together.

As ever, it is blatantly clear that most people commenting here have never left the North American continent, let alone actually visited Scandinavia.
First to fly the 787-9
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2551
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:10 am

zkojq wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
It's less about population than it is about culture. The Northern European countries you refer to are all pretty much the least-diverse countries in the world: around 95% white and 95% of the same culture group. Consensus and trust are easy when that's the sandbox you're playing in.


America has black people and Native Americans; good governance is therefore impossible? :roll: Anyway, according to the far right-wing brain trust, all the Scandinavian countries are overrun with Muslim immigrants from Syria and economic migrants from Africa, so I'm not even sure how that logic fits together.

Yeah no :roll: The point was that consensus on levels of redistribution, where to redistribute the money to, societal goals, and trust in institutions you're handing your money over to for achieving those goals is easy to attain when you're working within the same cultural group who all generally have similar beliefs and values. It's a subject that is covered and studied extensively in political science and sociology.

zkojq wrote:
As ever, it is blatantly clear that most people commenting here have never left the North American continent, let alone actually visited Scandinavia.

I've lived in Europe, am bilingual, have travelled there extensively, visited Scandinavia (loved it there), and have visited all six inhabited continents.
 
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Berevoff
Posts: 203
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:13 am

WarRI1 wrote:
Berevoff wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:


I replied to your reply here last night, another mysterious disappearance??? What the hell!


Must be another "glitch" in the forums software. They've been working on the bugs for the last few years so just give them some time to figure things out. Its not like the developers of the site own hundreds of other forms and have widespread knowledge of that sort of thing. Cut them a break. I think its best we don't look too much into this because we might fall victim to a glitch ourselves.



Trust me, I do not go out of my way to harass anyone doing their job, 42 years in Unions might explain that. If it is truly a "glitch", no problem. If I am being harassed, well that I do not like of course. Now of course my fellow travelers harassing me on the forum, they can expect the same from me. That I truly enjoy, that is why I am on here, to discuss, and maybe, just maybe enlighten my fellow A Net contributors. :scratchchin: ;)


Whatever we can do to make this place a much more open and free place to talk about our opinions. No wonder why so many people in the aviation community come here for the great and varied opinions we have. Its a well respected aviation forum. We're one of the most visited forums online for that reason. People respect us.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8205
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:59 am

johnboy wrote:
Flighty wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Really? Have you checked the condition of the nation's bridges lately? The transit agencies of our major cities? Even privately owned infrastructure is in horrible shape. We have thousands of miles of gas pipeline to replace in New england. Almost every region of the country has inadequate electricity transmission infrastructure. Water and sewer lines suffer the same issues as natural gas pipelines in older cities.

How about the implementation of PTC on the nation's railways? How many times has that been delayed, and how many derailments could it have prevented?


Agree with your stunning indictment of government laziness and ineffective management. If you are trying to say government budgets are too "low" then you must not understand math, but I think you do and you are just laying blame where it really belongs: programmatic dysfunction and systematic waste in government.

The US federal, state and local governments already get enough money to do everything they need to do six times over. Just because they fail doesn't mean money is one of the problems. Not uncommonly, the problem is too much money. Not too little.

seb146 wrote:

For decades, Republicans have been insisting that if we just give more and more to the very wealthy, everything will pay for itself. When is that going to start? People are dying out here. People can not afford education. People can not afford homes. People can not afford health care. All because of this misguided belief that the rich will give back to everyone. How's that working out?


A couple of points. 1. By "give," you probably mean "taking anything less than 80% of tax revenue from the top 10%" The idea that people getting rich was good is not incorrect. That is how your city was built. Universities were started, corporations employed people like me or you, either directly or through taxes.

The government in the US already has sufficient money to provide universal healthcare and a very fine education. The money is there now. But, the will to use it in a way that benefits YOU is not there. Because the people with their hands on that money gain nothing by helping YOU. The issue you are getting at is corruption, not funding. Some countries have both problems. We do not. We have a huge corruption issue. The funding we have (that the affluent already provide) is superb. And we are lucky to have a system where some people grow affluent. I am not a defender of billionaires really, but I will defend a private sector middle & upper middle class all day long. Very few countries have that.

So I am not trying to tell you people who are suffering and dying will have great days ahead. I expect things to get worse, as corruption intensifies. People like ACO want to transfer trillions of dollars creating untold opportunities for diversion. Every mafia leader surely hears about this money and rejoices at the opportunities. As we become more like Russia, China with a super government/mafia that also controls all business. Certain characters stand to gain! But not regular people



I actually agree with you in a way, but it's not the government, it's the mafia-esque people we have in the White House right now, along with the military industrail complex. Since corporations seem to be people now, according to neoliberalism, we need to start looking at all the endless money going down the drain in these so-called "black box" ops, AND in wasted tax cuts to them.

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!! (THE REAL ONES)



There is no possible argument that justifies taking the rights of a person or group of people away just because they choose to act together under a corporate type organization. Hence why corporations are given have mostly the same rights as people, except for things like the right to vote.

Your line of thinking comes from a total confusion/misunderstanding of what a corporation is.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8205
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:05 am

zkojq wrote:
Wacker1000 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
So it's impossible to have universal healthcare in a large country? Someone should tell that to Germany or Japan!


If you add the population of Germany and Japan, you are still about 115 million people short of the US.


So? :roll:

Wacker1000 wrote:
You're also putting the same people in charge of healthcare (and lets be realistic - that is the only part of socialism people latch on to) that can't deliver a pieces of mail in a timely or effective manner.

What a stupid thing to say. The management of the postal service has nothing to do with healthcare. Suggesting that the service levels at one government agency must relate to that of another is blatantly stupid. The fact that my passport took less than 24 hours to be processed, created and then delivered doesn't mean that my garbage collection will be on time.

Wacker1000 wrote:
Also isn't it ironic that most of the medical breakthroughs do not come from socialist countries? What does that say about the system?

Significant medical breakthroughs came from Nazi Germany because they allowed live testing on human subjects. Obviously this means that fascism is the best form of government. Those folks didn't let regulation get in the way of innovation! :roll:

Jouhou wrote:
Trickle down is a failure, it was proven false before and it's being proven false again. When will people learn?

seb146 wrote:
For decades, Republicans have been insisting that if we just give more and more to the very wealthy, everything will pay for itself. When is that going to start? People are dying out here. People can not afford education. People can not afford homes. People can not afford health care. All because of this misguided belief that the rich will give back to everyone. How's that working out?


Trickle down economics works (St Ronald Reagan said so), its just that nobody ever implements it right! /s

flyguy89 wrote:
It's less about population than it is about culture. The Northern European countries you refer to are all pretty much the least-diverse countries in the world: around 95% white and 95% of the same culture group. Consensus and trust are easy when that's the sandbox you're playing in.


America has black people and Native Americans; good governance is therefore impossible? :roll: Anyway, according to the far right-wing brain trust, all the Scandinavian countries are overrun with Muslim immigrants from Syria and economic migrants from Africa, so I'm not even sure how that logic fits together.

As ever, it is blatantly clear that most people commenting here have never left the North American continent, let alone actually visited Scandinavia.


I've lived nearly half my life overseas.

FYI, trickle down economics was so successful that it has had an enormously powerful impact on leftist economics/politics. Since the Raegan/Thatcher years, the left has returned to power, but as a much more moderate voice than in the years prior. THAT moderation is the victory over the old leftists who destroyed their economies and set the stage for "trickle down" economics.

A couple of exceptions to this rule are Venezuela, Bolivia, and a handful of other countries. They also had horrible results.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
User avatar
WarRI1
Posts: 13014
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:19 am

Berevoff wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
Berevoff wrote:

Must be another "glitch" in the forums software. They've been working on the bugs for the last few years so just give them some time to figure things out. Its not like the developers of the site own hundreds of other forms and have widespread knowledge of that sort of thing. Cut them a break. I think its best we don't look too much into this because we might fall victim to a glitch ourselves.



Trust me, I do not go out of my way to harass anyone doing their job, 42 years in Unions might explain that. If it is truly a "glitch", no problem. If I am being harassed, well that I do not like of course. Now of course my fellow travelers harassing me on the forum, they can expect the same from me. That I truly enjoy, that is why I am on here, to discuss, and maybe, just maybe enlighten my fellow A Net contributors. :scratchchin: ;)


Whatever we can do to make this place a much more open and free place to talk about our opinions. No wonder why so many people in the aviation community come here for the great and varied opinions we have. Its a well respected aviation forum. We're one of the most visited forums online for that reason. People respect us.




I have no problem with that. As I said, I enjoy the give and take.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Bostrom
Posts: 774
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:13 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
What's more, Sweden nearly experienced financial collapse in the 90s because of the even more expansive socialist policies it used to maintain. Sweden essentially did a big u-turn, privatisation and major deregulation initiatives (including-gasp-partial privatization of social security!).


How was social security partially privatised in Sweden in the 90s? I've never heard that, and I'm Swedish. But I was very young then.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1485
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:33 pm

PPVRA wrote:
johnboy wrote:
Flighty wrote:

Agree with your stunning indictment of government laziness and ineffective management. If you are trying to say government budgets are too "low" then you must not understand math, but I think you do and you are just laying blame where it really belongs: programmatic dysfunction and systematic waste in government.

The US federal, state and local governments already get enough money to do everything they need to do six times over. Just because they fail doesn't mean money is one of the problems. Not uncommonly, the problem is too much money. Not too little.



A couple of points. 1. By "give," you probably mean "taking anything less than 80% of tax revenue from the top 10%" The idea that people getting rich was good is not incorrect. That is how your city was built. Universities were started, corporations employed people like me or you, either directly or through taxes.

The government in the US already has sufficient money to provide universal healthcare and a very fine education. The money is there now. But, the will to use it in a way that benefits YOU is not there. Because the people with their hands on that money gain nothing by helping YOU. The issue you are getting at is corruption, not funding. Some countries have both problems. We do not. We have a huge corruption issue. The funding we have (that the affluent already provide) is superb. And we are lucky to have a system where some people grow affluent. I am not a defender of billionaires really, but I will defend a private sector middle & upper middle class all day long. Very few countries have that.

So I am not trying to tell you people who are suffering and dying will have great days ahead. I expect things to get worse, as corruption intensifies. People like ACO want to transfer trillions of dollars creating untold opportunities for diversion. Every mafia leader surely hears about this money and rejoices at the opportunities. As we become more like Russia, China with a super government/mafia that also controls all business. Certain characters stand to gain! But not regular people



I actually agree with you in a way, but it's not the government, it's the mafia-esque people we have in the White House right now, along with the military industrail complex. Since corporations seem to be people now, according to neoliberalism, we need to start looking at all the endless money going down the drain in these so-called "black box" ops, AND in wasted tax cuts to them.

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!! (THE REAL ONES)



There is no possible argument that justifies taking the rights of a person or group of people away just because they choose to act together under a corporate type organization. Hence why corporations are given have mostly the same rights as people, except for things like the right to vote.

Your line of thinking comes from a total confusion/misunderstanding of what a corporation is.
What rights are (were) being taken away for being a corporation?
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
seb146
Posts: 20247
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:03 pm

PPVRA wrote:
I've lived nearly half my life overseas.

FYI, trickle down economics was so successful that it has had an enormously powerful impact on leftist economics/politics. Since the Raegan/Thatcher years, the left has returned to power, but as a much more moderate voice than in the years prior. THAT moderation is the victory over the old leftists who destroyed their economies and set the stage for "trickle down" economics.

A couple of exceptions to this rule are Venezuela, Bolivia, and a handful of other countries. They also had horrible results.


"Trickle Down" is successful for those at the top. They have fooled the rest of us into believing all that prosperity will come back to us. It has not. Prices have gone up, wages have stayed the same. It even costs more for basic needs like health care because the Republican "party of every life is sacred" demanded that health care be for-profit.

I would argue that "the left" has not moved to the center, but Republicans have pushed the country farther and farther to the right that what are Democrats today would have been Republicans back in the 1940s.

Many "leftist" countries were ruled by brutal dictators and military regimes. It had little to do with "trickle down" or much economic.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:57 pm

seb146 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
I've lived nearly half my life overseas.

FYI, trickle down economics was so successful that it has had an enormously powerful impact on leftist economics/politics. Since the Raegan/Thatcher years, the left has returned to power, but as a much more moderate voice than in the years prior. THAT moderation is the victory over the old leftists who destroyed their economies and set the stage for "trickle down" economics.

A couple of exceptions to this rule are Venezuela, Bolivia, and a handful of other countries. They also had horrible results.


"Trickle Down" is successful for those at the top. They have fooled the rest of us into believing all that prosperity will come back to us. It has not. Prices have gone up, wages have stayed the same. It even costs more for basic needs like health care because the Republican "party of every life is sacred" demanded that health care be for-profit.

I would argue that "the left" has not moved to the center, but Republicans have pushed the country farther and farther to the right that what are Democrats today would have been Republicans back in the 1940s.

Many "leftist" countries were ruled by brutal dictators and military regimes. It had little to do with "trickle down" or much economic.


"Let the government and corporate experts handle it" is also successful for those at the top. They can handle all your money, and make all of your decisions for you. You can contribute all your life, then at the end, you will be blamed as a villain.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8205
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:24 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
johnboy wrote:


I actually agree with you in a way, but it's not the government, it's the mafia-esque people we have in the White House right now, along with the military industrail complex. Since corporations seem to be people now, according to neoliberalism, we need to start looking at all the endless money going down the drain in these so-called "black box" ops, AND in wasted tax cuts to them.

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!! (THE REAL ONES)



There is no possible argument that justifies taking the rights of a person or group of people away just because they choose to act together under a corporate type organization. Hence why corporations are given have mostly the same rights as people, except for things like the right to vote.

Your line of thinking comes from a total confusion/misunderstanding of what a corporation is.
What rights are (were) being taken away for being a corporation?


You tell me, I'm not the one trying to take away any basic rights.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:29 pm

seb146 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
I've lived nearly half my life overseas.

FYI, trickle down economics was so successful that it has had an enormously powerful impact on leftist economics/politics. Since the Raegan/Thatcher years, the left has returned to power, but as a much more moderate voice than in the years prior. THAT moderation is the victory over the old leftists who destroyed their economies and set the stage for "trickle down" economics.

A couple of exceptions to this rule are Venezuela, Bolivia, and a handful of other countries. They also had horrible results.


"Trickle Down" is successful for those at the top. They have fooled the rest of us into believing all that prosperity will come back to us. It has not. Prices have gone up, wages have stayed the same. It even costs more for basic needs like health care because the Republican "party of every life is sacred" demanded that health care be for-profit.

I would argue that "the left" has not moved to the center, but Republicans have pushed the country farther and farther to the right that what are Democrats today would have been Republicans back in the 1940s.

Many "leftist" countries were ruled by brutal dictators and military regimes. It had little to do with "trickle down" or much economic.


The US healthcare system is akin to the aviation and rail industry PRE deregulation--an expensive disaster, under government control, clamoring for freedom.

It's absolutely undeniable that the left has moved to the center in the post Thatcher years. The reduced militancy of unions, the acceptance of the market-based economy by the left, the move away from nationalizations and towards privatizations is a global phenomenon. This might be less clearly seen in the USA because there were fewer government interventions in the first place, but it's clear elsewhere.

You should research the old Swedish model; or should I call it, the "real" Swedish model, and what an absolute disaster it was.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
seb146
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:57 pm

PPVRA wrote:
The US healthcare system is akin to the aviation and rail industry PRE deregulation--an expensive disaster, under government control, clamoring for freedom.


The health care industry in the United States helps write regulations and laws about the health care industry. When any health care bills come up for a vote, look at who has received large amounts of money from health care lobbying groups.

The health care system in the United States is doing very well, thank you very much. It is WE THE PEOPLE who are suffering. We can not afford to see the doctor anymore, now that the teeth have been taken out of ACA. We are back to where we were when we had to wait until we were "emergency room" sick to do anything about our health.

But, who cares about that? It is the industry that is suffering. :roll:
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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DL717
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:18 am

seb146 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
The US healthcare system is akin to the aviation and rail industry PRE deregulation--an expensive disaster, under government control, clamoring for freedom.


The health care industry in the United States helps write regulations and laws about the health care industry. When any health care bills come up for a vote, look at who has received large amounts of money from health care lobbying groups.

The health care system in the United States is doing very well, thank you very much. It is WE THE PEOPLE who are suffering. We can not afford to see the doctor anymore, now that the teeth have been taken out of ACA. We are back to where we were when we had to wait until we were "emergency room" sick to do anything about our health.

But, who cares about that? It is the industry that is suffering. :roll:


Soooooo. Deregulate insurance companies. Problem solved.
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tommy1808
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:02 pm

Jouhou wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

That does not give "economic benefits", at least not the kind that do any good for the rest of us.

The GOP should have opted for infrastructure instead, that would have generated benefits for everyone.

The one promise Trump made that made sense to everyone, he didn't follow through on. Just gave tax cuts to the wealthy.


It increases demand for capital goods, which in turn increases demand for labor = more jobs = less unemployment = up pressure on wages.

Of course, this is but one thing in a vastly complex economy. No one should expect this alone to fix everyone’s problems.


Yeah you know what has that effect, but to a greater benefit? Infrastructure.

What you are describing is us lowly middle class being fed breadcrumbs. Trickle down is a failure, it was proven false before and it's being proven false again. When will people learn?


plus of course: trickle down does not work. It has always been pure PR.

If you give companies tax cuts, it increases capital demand where ever having manufacturing happens to be cheap. Which is not the US. End of story.

Before Reagan, before "economists" could sell books and get good jobs by pretending it works, no economist said it would work. Try to find citations saying otherwise from the 70s or earlier.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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DL717
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:29 pm

Flighty wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
bgm wrote:

You say that, but your actions clearly speak otherwise. Just read what Flighty said. That's an old man that is threatened by her.


I'm still going with the confused boner theory. They find her attractive but also see her as the enemy and don't know what to do with their boners.

He (flighty) does seem mildly aroused, he mentions she needs the guidance of a more experienced person.


Ahaha yeah she is nice looking, but beauty is extremely common. As a public figure I think we should focus on her looks because that is what she brings to the table. Am I the only person who is calling that correctly? It’s not a point of confusion for me.


They put her on the financial services committee. No doubt to ensure the stupid continues once Maxine Waters retires.
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PPVRA
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:58 pm

seb146 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
The US healthcare system is akin to the aviation and rail industry PRE deregulation--an expensive disaster, under government control, clamoring for freedom.


The health care industry in the United States helps write regulations and laws about the health care industry. When any health care bills come up for a vote, look at who has received large amounts of money from health care lobbying groups.

The health care system in the United States is doing very well, thank you very much. It is WE THE PEOPLE who are suffering. We can not afford to see the doctor anymore, now that the teeth have been taken out of ACA. We are back to where we were when we had to wait until we were "emergency room" sick to do anything about our health.

But, who cares about that? It is the industry that is suffering. :roll:


Did I ever say the industry is suffering? I did not, did I?

The health care industry's lobby for regulations is EQUALLY unfriendly to free market policies than anything socialist ideology could throw at it.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:06 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

It increases demand for capital goods, which in turn increases demand for labor = more jobs = less unemployment = up pressure on wages.

Of course, this is but one thing in a vastly complex economy. No one should expect this alone to fix everyone’s problems.


Yeah you know what has that effect, but to a greater benefit? Infrastructure.

What you are describing is us lowly middle class being fed breadcrumbs. Trickle down is a failure, it was proven false before and it's being proven false again. When will people learn?


plus of course: trickle down does not work. It has always been pure PR.

If you give companies tax cuts, it increases capital demand where ever having manufacturing happens to be cheap. Which is not the US. End of story.

Before Reagan, before "economists" could sell books and get good jobs by pretending it works, no economist said it would work. Try to find citations saying otherwise from the 70s or earlier.

best regards
Thomas


False. Reagan and Thatcher policies have never been overturned, far left parties are much smaller today, and there's little to no chance of overturning it. At most, they are nostalgic about it and rant over it during elections, but to put it back in practice? Extremely unlikely. Why? Because even those parties know it's unfeasible, because they know the problems they created and even if they hate to admit it, they know trickle down economics stabilized the patient.

The left is still on the defensive today and market liberalization continues to advance globally. The success is undeniable and yes, problems remain, but that's because the liberalization process isn't anywhere close to being complete.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
seb146
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:38 pm

PPVRA wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Yeah you know what has that effect, but to a greater benefit? Infrastructure.

What you are describing is us lowly middle class being fed breadcrumbs. Trickle down is a failure, it was proven false before and it's being proven false again. When will people learn?


plus of course: trickle down does not work. It has always been pure PR.

If you give companies tax cuts, it increases capital demand where ever having manufacturing happens to be cheap. Which is not the US. End of story.

Before Reagan, before "economists" could sell books and get good jobs by pretending it works, no economist said it would work. Try to find citations saying otherwise from the 70s or earlier.

best regards
Thomas


False. Reagan and Thatcher policies have never been overturned, far left parties are much smaller today, and there's little to no chance of overturning it. At most, they are nostalgic about it and rant over it during elections, but to put it back in practice? Extremely unlikely. Why? Because even those parties know it's unfeasible, because they know the problems they created and even if they hate to admit it, they know trickle down economics stabilized the patient.

The left is still on the defensive today and market liberalization continues to advance globally. The success is undeniable and yes, problems remain, but that's because the liberalization process isn't anywhere close to being complete.


The gap between the very wealthy and the working poor has widened since Republicans implemented trickle down. It works great for corporations and works great for politicians who receive the benefits of the rich through lobbying groups. Those of us at the bottom who have to work our butts off and get nothing in return except more debt do not think this is a great system. "The left" are simply farther to the right than where they were before Reagan started stealing from the poor to give to the rich. "The left" understand that they get richer through lobbyists and the wealthy and not us who work. Go ask the middle class how well trickle down works for them. Ask the people working two and three jobs. Ask the people living on the streets because they can not afford an apartment on their salary.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
trav777
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:55 am

seb146 wrote:
Wacker1000 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Exactly Z-E-R-O!!!! of that has to do with socialism. If you read and know anything at all about the political movements, you would know that. Socialism is a four-letter-word made up by Republicans to scare the low information base.


Ahhh your favorite - the Republican boogeyman!

But seriously, how do you figure?


For decades, Republicans have been insisting that if we just give more and more to the very wealthy, everything will pay for itself. When is that going to start? People are dying out here. People can not afford education. People can not afford homes. People can not afford health care. All because of this misguided belief that the rich will give back to everyone. How's that working out?


Sorry to bust your bubble but the among the richest counties, 75% voted dem. There is no such thing as a republican and they aren't the party of the rich, the democrats are. All the banks, tech, media...all blue

Oh an AOC is awesome, I want her to be president so she can burn everything to the ground :)))))
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:11 am

You'd be incorrect if you thought part of the Democratic party platform was pacifism.
 
seb146
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:30 am

DL717 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Bring it. We already raised children and know how to deal with it.


Probably going to end like all these other "protest organizations": Occupy Wallstreet, Tea Party, BLM, etc. That is, end up nowhere.


Yup. Always happens when people grow up and realize life takes work.


Actually, people realize that the government is a wholly owned subsidiary of (insert corporation here). No matter how hard we work to get equality, money wins. As the Golden Rule states: he who has the gold, makes the rules. It is apparently right there in the Bible because the party of Christianity says so. No matter how many people want AFFORDABLE health care and AFFORDABLE education, the elite will win because they can buy the government.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:49 pm

DL717 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Bring it. We already raised children and know how to deal with it.


Probably going to end like all these other "protest organizations": Occupy Wallstreet, Tea Party, BLM, etc. That is, end up nowhere.


Yup. Always happens when people grow up and realize life takes work.

Yep the Trump/Kushner/Bush/Falwell/Graham offspring would not have gotten where they are today without work. And by work I mean 'uge hand me downs from daddy, because otherwise they'd all be eating paint chips under a bridge somewhere.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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DL717
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:22 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:

Probably going to end like all these other "protest organizations": Occupy Wallstreet, Tea Party, BLM, etc. That is, end up nowhere.


Yup. Always happens when people grow up and realize life takes work.

Yep the Trump/Kushner/Bush/Falwell/Graham offspring would not have gotten where they are today without work. And by work I mean 'uge hand me downs from daddy, because otherwise they'd all be eating paint chips under a bridge somewhere.


TDR alert!!! Whoop, whoop. TDR alert!
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Dieuwer
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:34 pm

seb146 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:

Probably going to end like all these other "protest organizations": Occupy Wallstreet, Tea Party, BLM, etc. That is, end up nowhere.


Yup. Always happens when people grow up and realize life takes work.


Actually, people realize..


ACTUALLY, the people "realize" nothing as they vote for the same person over and over again and expect a different result.
 
seb146
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:59 pm

DL717 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Yup. Always happens when people grow up and realize life takes work.

Yep the Trump/Kushner/Bush/Falwell/Graham offspring would not have gotten where they are today without work. And by work I mean 'uge hand me downs from daddy, because otherwise they'd all be eating paint chips under a bridge somewhere.


TDR alert!!! Whoop, whoop. TDR alert!


Which part is wrong? The orange one is not a self-made man, as he would have you believe.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-35836623
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... ealth.html
https://www.npr.org/2018/10/06/65512133 ... is-fortune

He got his money from daddy.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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DL717
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:23 pm

seb146 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Yep the Trump/Kushner/Bush/Falwell/Graham offspring would not have gotten where they are today without work. And by work I mean 'uge hand me downs from daddy, because otherwise they'd all be eating paint chips under a bridge somewhere.


TDR alert!!! Whoop, whoop. TDR alert!


Which part is wrong? The orange one is not a self-made man, as he would have you believe.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-35836623
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... ealth.html
https://www.npr.org/2018/10/06/65512133 ... is-fortune

He got his money from daddy.


Alarm is working overtime today.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
seb146
Posts: 20247
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:23 pm

DL717 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
DL717 wrote:

TDR alert!!! Whoop, whoop. TDR alert!


Which part is wrong? The orange one is not a self-made man, as he would have you believe.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-35836623
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... ealth.html
https://www.npr.org/2018/10/06/65512133 ... is-fortune

He got his money from daddy.


Alarm is working overtime today.


ah, I see.... History is wrong, you are right. Good to know.

And, yet, Fred Trump still made millions with high tax rates. But, again, history is wrong, you are right.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
coolian2
Posts: 2480
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:34 pm

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:28 pm

seb146 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Which part is wrong? The orange one is not a self-made man, as he would have you believe.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-35836623
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... ealth.html
https://www.npr.org/2018/10/06/65512133 ... is-fortune

He got his money from daddy.


Alarm is working overtime today.


ah, I see.... History is wrong, you are right. Good to know.

And, yet, Fred Trump still made millions with high tax rates. But, again, history is wrong, you are right.

Well Donald could actually be a billionaire without those taxes
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seb146
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: The It Girl

Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:15 pm

coolian2 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Alarm is working overtime today.


ah, I see.... History is wrong, you are right. Good to know.

And, yet, Fred Trump still made millions with high tax rates. But, again, history is wrong, you are right.

Well Donald could actually be a billionaire without those taxes


And that is important...... why?

I would rather have affordable health care, affordable housing, affordable schools, not crumbling infrastructure than have one man be a billionaire.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!

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