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2122M
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Re: US politics: 2019 Liberal Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:51 pm

seb146 wrote:
2122M wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
You should just visit Eastern Oregon/Washington. Will be immediately clear why they vote GOP.


Can you elaborate on that? I know the Pacific NW cities are some of the more liberal in the country, so I’m curious as to what it is specifically about those rural regions that causes them to support the GOP?


People are few and far between. They think every cent of their taxes go to Portland, Eugene, and Bend. There is little investment east of the Cascades because there is not much there; not many people, not much usable land, no major companies, etc. Southern Oregon is still stuck, in some ways, in the 1950s. Many older people will not deal with "outsiders" in many places. Ashland is much more open minded but Medford and Grants Pass are just odd. They are getting there, but at a much slower pace.

Washington is a different animal. With larger areas like Spokane and Pasco/Richland/Kennewick (Tri-Cities) being center to center left. There are parts of eastern Washington that face similar issues eastern Oregon does. They think all tax dollars go to Seattle. There is a lot Spokane and Tri-Cities have to offer. Both areas are growing and have great opportunities, if you have the right education. But, many places simply do not have the population to support a tech boom or justifying large investments.


So what should democrats be doing to make inroads in these areas? Environmental protection policies must be a factor in a lot of these areas right? Its got to be made clear that no-one is coming to take away everyone's guns when the democrats introduce common sense gun legislation. But other than that, rural and sparsely populated areas have the most to gain from more government oversight. If everything was privatized the way the GOP likes to promote, there would be little or no investment in these rural areas at all because all the money is in the cities. Is that not an angle that appeals to these folks?
 
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trpmb6
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Re: US politics: 2019 Liberal Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:39 pm

2122M wrote:
Is that not an angle that appeals to these folks?


That's exactly it. They just want to be left alone. And the farm bill passed. That's about it really.
 
PIMountaineer
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Re: US politics: 2019 Liberal Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:53 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
...or maybe West Virginia will become irrelevant in national elections (because population going to zero, due to mass Black Lung Cancer cases).


As a West Virginian, I would prefer that not to happen here or anywhere for that matter. I also assume no one would prefer that to happen including you. I lost both grandfathers from Black Lung. One died years before my birth, the other I watched waste away.

I think the better option is to see that WV or any other state for that matter does not become irrelevant.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: US politics: 2019 Liberal Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:32 pm

salttee wrote:
It's an American history thing. The Civil war was a big deal and it still isn't healed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%2 ... to_the_Sea


Get over it. It happened more than 150 years ago.
 
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seb146
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Re: US politics: 2019 Liberal Discussion Thread

Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:24 am

2122M wrote:
So what should democrats be doing to make inroads in these areas? Environmental protection policies must be a factor in a lot of these areas right? Its got to be made clear that no-one is coming to take away everyone's guns when the democrats introduce common sense gun legislation. But other than that, rural and sparsely populated areas have the most to gain from more government oversight. If everything was privatized the way the GOP likes to promote, there would be little or no investment in these rural areas at all because all the money is in the cities. Is that not an angle that appeals to these folks?


People in rural areas, as with suburban and urban areas, just want to live their life in peace. In rural areas, the notion of "government is the problem" is taken to the extreme. You bring up environmental policies. Those environmental rules are put in place for everyone else, not me. If people downstream from me don't like it, too bad. And how dare those people upstream from me pollute my environment. Look at the Bundy Ranch in Nevada. They don't care that other ranchers pay BLM grazing fees but why should the Bundy Ranch?

Many in rural areas have spent years and years and years being told that "liberals" are going to take everything and "liberals" are going to do this and that to destroy family and land and home, all while Republicans actually do those things. Republicans are constantly telling rural folk that only GOP ideas and laws will save them. It has been indoctrinated into the rural way of life for decades.

This explains why we can not have common sense gun legislation. If any "liberal" brings it up, the very first thing any Republican will scream is "STOP TRYING TO TAKE OUR GUNS!!!!" because that is what has been ingrained in them. We can't have civil discussions on guns and reproductive health because of this mentality of "Republicans are right and everyone else hates America".
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
salttee
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Re: US politics: 2019 Liberal Discussion Thread

Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:30 am

Dieuwer wrote:
salttee wrote:
It's an American history thing. The Civil war was a big deal and it still isn't healed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%2 ... to_the_Sea


Get over it. It happened more than 150 years ago.

You completely don't understand. It's the southerners who haven't gotten over it. The north (my people) forced them to free the slaves and as if that weren't enough, almost 100 years later along comes the civil rights act and all at once the ex-slaves are to be treated as whole and complete citizens: no more segregation, no more separate education, no more separate water fountains. Equal rights for all.

That's what the confederate flags and other Dixie paraphernalia are all about, resistance to modernity, resistance to inclusive policies, that's what "states rights" is all about and those are the divisions in my country that Donald Trump is playing on, and using to divide the nation for his benefit.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: US politics: 2019 Liberal Discussion Thread

Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:31 am

seb146 wrote:
2122M wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
You should just visit Eastern Oregon/Washington. Will be immediately clear why they vote GOP.


Can you elaborate on that? I know the Pacific NW cities are some of the more liberal in the country, so I’m curious as to what it is specifically about those rural regions that causes them to support the GOP?


People are few and far between. They think every cent of their taxes go to Portland, Eugene, and Bend. There is little investment east of the Cascades because there is not much there; not many people, not much usable land, no major companies, etc. Southern Oregon is still stuck, in some ways, in the 1950s. Many older people will not deal with "outsiders" in many places. Ashland is much more open minded but Medford and Grants Pass are just odd. They are getting there, but at a much slower pace.

Washington is a different animal. With larger areas like Spokane and Pasco/Richland/Kennewick (Tri-Cities) being center to center left. There are parts of eastern Washington that face similar issues eastern Oregon does. They think all tax dollars go to Seattle. There is a lot Spokane and Tri-Cities have to offer. Both areas are growing and have great opportunities, if you have the right education. But, many places simply do not have the population to support a tech boom or justifying large investments.


I was in Walla Walla late August last year. Saw an Oregon rodeo on Dutch TV so I thought I'd go to Walla Walla and experience one. I chose to go there because the rodeo was over Labor Day Weekend. Convenient.
So I get there and the first thing I notice is how clean and manicured the town is. Very nice grass fields, super clean streets. I also notice a lot of people with strollers, or having a lot of kids in tow. Mostly Caucasian-American families but also mixed Latin-American families.
The vibe is very "Christian". Passing by car, I notice the "Seventh-Day Adventist University" of Walla Walla (College Place, WA). There is a parade, I talk to several people and everyone seem very friendly. Of course, I am an undercover liberal who purposedly looks like a redneck (jeans, cap, etc.). Either way, people seem very traditional and like the traditional way, Guys and girls on horseback, waving flags and guns.
The rodeo itself is interesting. Before it begins, everyone is asked to stand for the national anthem. All very jingoistic. Afterwards, lot of talk about God, blessings and stuff. Not really my cup of tea, but I"m sure it resonates with everyone else there.
There is also a county fair with livestock, tractors, games, etc. The only political stand I see at the fair is of the GOP. I considered for a moment to say "hi" and start a discussion, but then again I see heavily armed cops and I don't feel like potentially being tossed out of town as a "filthy liberal".

Anyhow, my point is that these people live a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LIVE form those in e.g. Seattle or Portland (the liberal bastions). It might as well have been a different country. And thus I don't see anything that will change things the way they are. They probably vote GOP, because in their eyes the GOP stands for tradition, guns and everything that God wants them to do, while the liberals embrace abortion, gay rights, pot, etc. Basically everything God (old testament that is) forbids them.

So how are Dems to make inroads? I don't see it.
 
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seb146
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Re: US politics: 2019 Liberal Discussion Thread

Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:44 am

Dieuwer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
2122M wrote:

Can you elaborate on that? I know the Pacific NW cities are some of the more liberal in the country, so I’m curious as to what it is specifically about those rural regions that causes them to support the GOP?


People are few and far between. They think every cent of their taxes go to Portland, Eugene, and Bend. There is little investment east of the Cascades because there is not much there; not many people, not much usable land, no major companies, etc. Southern Oregon is still stuck, in some ways, in the 1950s. Many older people will not deal with "outsiders" in many places. Ashland is much more open minded but Medford and Grants Pass are just odd. They are getting there, but at a much slower pace.

Washington is a different animal. With larger areas like Spokane and Pasco/Richland/Kennewick (Tri-Cities) being center to center left. There are parts of eastern Washington that face similar issues eastern Oregon does. They think all tax dollars go to Seattle. There is a lot Spokane and Tri-Cities have to offer. Both areas are growing and have great opportunities, if you have the right education. But, many places simply do not have the population to support a tech boom or justifying large investments.


I was in Walla Walla late August last year. Saw an Oregon rodeo on Dutch TV so I thought I'd go to Walla Walla and experience one. I chose to go there because the rodeo was over Labor Day Weekend. Convenient.
So I get there and the first thing I notice is how clean and manicured the town is. Very nice grass fields, super clean streets. I also notice a lot of people with strollers, or having a lot of kids in tow. Mostly Caucasian-American families but also mixed Latin-American families.
The vibe is very "Christian". Passing by car, I notice the "Seventh-Day Adventist University" of Walla Walla (College Place, WA). There is a parade, I talk to several people and everyone seem very friendly. Of course, I am an undercover liberal who purposedly looks like a redneck (jeans, cap, etc.). Either way, people seem very traditional and like the traditional way, Guys and girls on horseback, waving flags and guns.
The rodeo itself is interesting. Before it begins, everyone is asked to stand for the national anthem. All very jingoistic. Afterwards, lot of talk about God, blessings and stuff. Not really my cup of tea, but I"m sure it resonates with everyone else there.
There is also a county fair with livestock, tractors, games, etc. The only political stand I see at the fair is of the GOP. I considered for a moment to say "hi" and start a discussion, but then again I see heavily armed cops and I don't feel like potentially being tossed out of town as a "filthy liberal".

Anyhow, my point is that these people live a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LIVE form those in e.g. Seattle or Portland (the liberal bastions). It might as well have been a different country. And thus I don't see anything that will change things the way they are. They probably vote GOP, because in their eyes the GOP stands for tradition, guns and everything that God wants them to do, while the liberals embrace abortion, gay rights, pot, etc. Basically everything God (old testament that is) forbids them.

So how are Dems to make inroads? I don't see it.


The best way to change thing is for "liberals" to move there. I left there because I felt so out of place. I grew up there and was told what a terrible person I was. They don't like change and don't like people different than them.

I will say this: as long as you do not discuss politics, everyone gets along.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Jouhou
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Re: US politics: 2019 Liberal Discussion Thread

Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:13 am

Dieuwer wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
...or maybe West Virginia will become irrelevant in national elections (because population going to zero, due to mass Black Lung Cancer cases).

That is likely the alternative that the DNC will prefer. Why bother trying to recover 4 ECVs (come 2024) when Arizona's 12 and Georgia's 16 look more promising?


Actually, I really don't understand why GA is not a blue state. Georgia Tech and Atlanta strike me as liberal (although not as much as MA or CA). Also, I would think that non-white voters would lean Dem out of their own interest.


Non-white voters do lean Dem. Voter suppression is a huge issue in the southern states. A lot of democratic activists were reporting a massive flood of voter suppression efforts throughout the South during this past election- and that's always happened it's just with the internet it's easier to spread awareness on small scale voter suppression efforts (like widespread closures of polling stations in black neighborhoods in multiple southern states).

It's why the governor's election in Georgia became so controversial. The Democratic candidate was someone who had spent her life fighting voter suppression and was able to recognize it and raise a ruckus over it.

Also West Virginians might deserve some scorn politically for voting against their own interests, but they're still human beings and hopefully the rest of us are still willing to give aid to their health issues, even when they bite the hand that feeds them.
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bhill
Posts: 1883
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Re: US politics: 2019 Liberal Discussion Thread

Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:45 pm

Lets hope all the gerrymandering bullshit is finished...and yes, Eastern WA is the "red" side of the state. But as the population/density of voters is higher on the west side, the west side usually decides issue. There are some cities in eastern Washington that you cannot buy booze on sundays...or before noon on sundays.
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