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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:44 am

ChrisKen wrote:
Revoke article 50 and remain - Only option left.
It's two parliamentary votes and this debacle is sorted. The referendum has been honoured and the nation's Parliament has acted in the best interests of the country, as it damn well should do.


It's still quite weird to me that this obvious and logical conclusion is being spoken about more and more in public fora, yet still gets virtually no air time in the media and is taboo in parliament.

I suppose it's all about saving face, but surely it must actually be in the back of most politicians' minds as well? Are they all waiting for the moment they think it becomes acceptable to come out and say it themselves?
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:09 pm

ChrisKen wrote:

Revoke article 50 and remain - Only option left.
It's two parliamentary votes and this debacle is sorted. The referendum has been honoured and the nation's Parliament has acted in the best interests of the country, as it damn well should do.


Utter nonense.

The result of the referendum would have not been honoured.

You need to accept that in all probability in two weeks we will be out the EU. We will be leaving without a deal. Default position.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:35 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
Revoke article 50 and remain - Only option left.
It's two parliamentary votes and this debacle is sorted. The referendum has been honoured and the nation's Parliament has acted in the best interests of the country, as it damn well should do.


It's still quite weird to me that this obvious and logical conclusion is being spoken about more and more in public fora, yet still gets virtually no air time in the media and is taboo in parliament.

I suppose it's all about saving face, but surely it must actually be in the back of most politicians' minds as well? Are they all waiting for the moment they think it becomes acceptable to come out and say it themselves?


Although the least bad choice, if the Parliament were to say 'never mind', terminate the Brexit process and keep the UK in the EU, the backlash on the politicians will be crazy as massive damage has already happened. They are scared their constituents will vote them out of office, especially in pro-Brexit areas. I suspect the UKIP will grow in popularity or perhaps a new extremist party will develop. The UK could see, as in the USA, a near 50-50 division of voters, likely a lot fewer people voting and continuing battles between London and the rest of the country.

One thing Representative democracy is supposed to do is prevent the 'tyranny of the majority', to be a check on the majority imposing harmful polices on a minority. In the UK, the Brexit referendum allowed that 'tyranny' overshadow the very real problems of a Brexit to a narrow minority of the UK. I fear that allowing a hard Brexit will devastate the UK's economy and with other factors, trigger a worldwide recession. The MP's must show real courage and do what is best for the country - invoke Article 50 and end Brexit.
 
marcelh
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:44 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
If parliament rejects May´s deal a third time, there is no reason to grant a short extension, it is time to end this drama and kick the UK out. How much longer do you want to paralyse the economy with the constant mood swings of the UK and do you really want Farrange sitting in the new EU parliament? How do you want to proceed, if the UK participates in the EU election and UKIP, DUP and the Torries get 60% of the votes in the UK?


We need to leave to move on.


Well, move on then! Kick those @sses in your Parlement (a.k.a. Kindergarten) and deliver the Brexit.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:52 pm

Invoking the Australian car industry is odd. Firstly Australian factories were predominantly producing just for the AU+NZ market (less than 30 million people combined) whereas the likes of Nissan are building the QASHQAI for the best part of the entire European market. Secondly, a drive through the northern suburbs of Adelaide will show you what a significant impact the decline of the car industry has had. Think mining towns in Yorkshire. No one other than the investment bankers and private equity providers win from a decline in industry, sure as hell the workers don't.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:54 pm

marcelh wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
If parliament rejects May´s deal a third time, there is no reason to grant a short extension, it is time to end this drama and kick the UK out. How much longer do you want to paralyse the economy with the constant mood swings of the UK and do you really want Farrange sitting in the new EU parliament? How do you want to proceed, if the UK participates in the EU election and UKIP, DUP and the Torries get 60% of the votes in the UK?


We need to leave to move on.


Well, move on then! Kick those @sses in your Parlement (a.k.a. Kindergarten) and deliver the Brexit.


(and suffer the consequences)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:55 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:

Revoke article 50 and remain - Only option left.
It's two parliamentary votes and this debacle is sorted. The referendum has been honoured and the nation's Parliament has acted in the best interests of the country, as it damn well should do.


Utter nonense.

The result of the referendum would have not been honoured.

You need to accept that in all probability in two weeks we will be out the EU. We will be leaving without a deal. Default position.


Do you accept if it doesn't happen in just a few days?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:03 pm

neo fascist extremists: one man, one vote, one time. This is not a position that anyone has to remain in. The voters of the UK know now what Brexit means. Should they have another referendum, and Brexit wins so be it. If Remain wins neo fascist extremists should go along with that majority. We hope that a sizable minority of them do not become terrorists.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:

Revoke article 50 and remain - Only option left.
It's two parliamentary votes and this debacle is sorted. The referendum has been honoured and the nation's Parliament has acted in the best interests of the country, as it damn well should do.


Utter nonense.

The result of the referendum would have not been honoured.

You need to accept that in all probability in two weeks we will be out the EU. We will be leaving without a deal. Default position.


Do you accept if it doesn't happen in just a few days?


No. Mrs May promised we will be leaving on the 29th.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:29 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Utter nonense.

The result of the referendum would have not been honoured.

You need to accept that in all probability in two weeks we will be out the EU. We will be leaving without a deal. Default position.


Do you accept if it doesn't happen in just a few days?


No. Mrs May promised we will be leaving on the 29th.


Ok, you will not accept anything other than a hard Brexit on the 29th of this month?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:10 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Do you accept if it doesn't happen in just a few days?


No. Mrs May promised we will be leaving on the 29th.


Ok, you will not accept anything other than a hard Brexit on the 29th of this month?


Nothing to really accept. Mrs May’s deal is rubbish. Lets get out on the 29th and start taking things forward from there.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:37 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

No. Mrs May promised we will be leaving on the 29th.


Ok, you will not accept anything other than a hard Brexit on the 29th of this month?


Nothing to really accept. Mrs May’s deal is rubbish. Lets get out on the 29th and start taking things forward from there.


Translation: I do not accept anything else even though the elected Parliament might decide otherwise. I want a hard Brexit, anything else is not acceptable. Let's move first take a giant step back and after that, we step is the big unknown, but I will be happy because I got my hard Brexit, don't care about anything or anyone else.

Like I said, hard Brexiteers are extremist.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:42 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Ok, you will not accept anything other than a hard Brexit on the 29th of this month?


Nothing to really accept. Mrs May’s deal is rubbish. Lets get out on the 29th and start taking things forward from there.


Translation: I do not accept anything else even though the elected Parliament might decide otherwise. I want a hard Brexit, anything else is not acceptable. Let's move first take a giant step back and after that, we step is the big unknown, but I will be happy because I got my hard Brexit, don't care about anything or anyone else.

Like I said, hard Brexiteers are extremist.


Ok.

If you honestly think our elected parliament, would arrange a decent deal, then you have more faith than me.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:07 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Translation: I do not accept anything else even though the elected Parliament might decide otherwise. I want a hard Brexit, anything else is not acceptable. Let's move first take a giant step back and after that, we step is the big unknown, but I will be happy because I got my hard Brexit, don't care about anything or anyone else.

Like I said, hard Brexiteers are extremist.


Mmm, Article 50 was invoked deal or no deal we move out of the EU on the 29th. The EU has repeatedly said they would not renegotiate the WA, parliament has rejected both the WA and a hard exist the government is committed to adhering to the results of the referendum. The EU has said no to an extension without a plan.

Do you really see a plan being done in 2 weeks if they really are committed to honouring the result?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:12 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Nothing to really accept. Mrs May’s deal is rubbish. Lets get out on the 29th and start taking things forward from there.


Translation: I do not accept anything else even though the elected Parliament might decide otherwise. I want a hard Brexit, anything else is not acceptable. Let's move first take a giant step back and after that, we step is the big unknown, but I will be happy because I got my hard Brexit, don't care about anything or anyone else.

Like I said, hard Brexiteers are extremist.


Ok.

If you honestly think our elected parliament, would arrange a decent deal, then you have more faith than me.


If that is your attitude, then it is beyond me that you think your government can successfully broker 60plus trade deals you are stand to lose when you do your little Brexit and you still believe you will be in a better place than you are right now. Now that will take a leap of faith to believe what you believe, I almost respect that, almost.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:25 pm

seahawk wrote:
You got that wrong. If the UK does not sign a deal and does not revoke Article 50, no deal it is. British parliament can only vote against the the no deal by voting for something else that can be agreed on by both parties.

Nothing to do with the default provisions now. Parliament have committed to not allowing a no deal exit. Thus they must either strike a deal or revoke article 50.
Striking a deal is unlikely, they have the best deal they'll get, therefore, one option remains. Which was the only sane option from the start.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:35 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Translation: I do not accept anything else even though the elected Parliament might decide otherwise. I want a hard Brexit, anything else is not acceptable. Let's move first take a giant step back and after that, we step is the big unknown, but I will be happy because I got my hard Brexit, don't care about anything or anyone else.

Like I said, hard Brexiteers are extremist.


Mmm, Article 50 was invoked deal or no deal we move out of the EU on the 29th. The EU has repeatedly said they would not renegotiate the WA, parliament has rejected both the WA and a hard exist the government is committed to adhering to the results of the referendum. The EU has said no to an extension without a plan.

Do you really see a plan being done in 2 weeks if they really are committed to honouring the result?


I still hope that your MP's will be acting in the interest of your country, I hope cooler heads will prevail instead of dogmatic heads. Perhaps WA will be adopted anyway, perhaps there will be a 3rd way we can't see right now, perhaps the EU will grand a small exention. You and I don't know. I still can't see that the UK is truly committed to go off the cliff. Nobody wants that, nobody except the most extreme Brexiteers.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:45 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
seahawk wrote:
You got that wrong. If the UK does not sign a deal and does not revoke Article 50, no deal it is. British parliament can only vote against the the no deal by voting for something else that can be agreed on by both parties.

Nothing to do with the default provisions now. Parliament have committed to not allowing a no deal exit. Thus they must either strike a deal or revoke article 50.
Striking a deal is unlikely, they have the best deal they'll get, therefore, one option remains. Which was the only sane option from the start.


As long as parliament does not vote for something, the hard Brexit still can not be avoided. So imho on the 29th the UK will stumble out of the EU, because they will simply start to ask for a better deal with no red lines given up and no change in their position, the EU will reject this and boom.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Let's do the Brino then, A101 will be happy with it.


Are you happy with it?

You do realise it only applies to Ireland right and a technical border still exist between the EU/UK within Ireland, the only frictionless trade is between ROI/NI not the greater EU/UK.

Once goods or people it enters or leaves the island will be subject to conditions of enter/leaving across a border, so effectively the entire island is the backstop.


Dutchy wrote:
Welcome to the European Economic Area (EEA),

Ireland Economic Area (IEA)


Dutchy wrote:
Best result for the EU and Brittain outside of the EU. The referendum is observed, the mandate is observed, the Good Friday Agreement is observed, all are happy right?



That’s the objective isn’t it?


Ireland Economic Area (IEA), send it to both negotiation teams see what they think.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:14 am

A101 wrote:
LJ wrote:
Your fishing industry is noncompetitive and has been for many years. The fishing industry in many EU countries is much more efficient (sometimes not liked by some other EU countries) or is bought by EU companies. Following your reasoning of the car industry it should have collapsed anyway.


It’s not that the UK fishing industry was not competitive, prior to joining the EEC the UK territorial EEZ was out to 200nm, once becoming a part of the EEC pushed us into the Common Fishing Policy which gave quota’s to members on those grounds and reduced the UK’s sovereign fishing areas to 12nm


Yet was not even able to make use of that as they sold their quota's to companies of other EU countries or were taken over by them. It's also odd that much of the fish catched is going to the UK as the UK prefers other fish to eat.

A101 wrote:
Ireland Economic Area (IEA), send it to both negotiation teams see what they think.


We already know the answer as the DUP is very vocal about it and are against. Easy for the EU as it doesn't even need to have an opinion about it.

seahawk wrote:
As long as parliament does not vote for something, the hard Brexit still can not be avoided. So imho on the 29th the UK will stumble out of the EU, because they will simply start to ask for a better deal with no red lines given up and no change in their position, the EU will reject this and boom.


Unless the May agreement is approved (chances are rising) at the last hour (I would reckon she'll try again for the fourth time should she fail next Wednesday), the chances of a hard Brexit are higher than a revocation of article 50. The latter I just don't see happening as there is no majority for it.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:32 am

I think you misunderstand his proposal for an Ireland Economic Area (IEA). It would actually mean that Ireland would leave the common market.NI and Ireland would from on common area, imports and exports to the UK and to the EU would have to be checked.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:54 pm

seahawk wrote:
I think you misunderstand his proposal for an Ireland Economic Area (IEA). It would actually mean that Ireland would leave the common market.NI and Ireland would from on common area, imports and exports to the UK and to the EU would have to be checked.


This still breaks NI away from the UK and will probably be seen as the forst step towards the unification of Ireland. I doubt the DUP wants agree to that. Moreover, there is also no point for Ireland to agree. It will loose all the benefits of the common market if it is legally possible (which I doubt as al lot of EU law should exempt Ireland from the text).
 
sbworcs
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:04 pm

I emailed my local MP a while back regarding peoples vote now that fuller facts are known.

The repsonse I got was basically "second referendum / peoples vote is undemocratic because you don;t try again just because you did not like the first answer". When i replied mentioning that this is EXACTLY what the Government is doing with Theresa Mays deal and is likely do possibly a 3rd / 4th time he went very quiet and I have not heard anything since
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:37 pm

sbworcs wrote:
I emailed my local MP a while back regarding peoples vote now that fuller facts are known.

The repsonse I got was basically "second referendum / peoples vote is undemocratic because you don;t try again just because you did not like the first answer". When i replied mentioning that this is EXACTLY what the Government is doing with Theresa Mays deal and is likely do possibly a 3rd / 4th time he went very quiet and I have not heard anything since


“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:13 pm

The Big Brexit Short : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht40yrt3VrY

Bloomberg
Published on Mar 15, 2019
On the night of the Brexit referendum the British pound went into free fall, but while many watched with horror, a handful of hedge funds were making staggering profits. This is the story of the Brexit Big Short.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:58 pm

https://mobile.twitter.com/socialm85897 ... 3408137216

Chilling.

Do people actually vote for this person?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:05 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
https://mobile.twitter.com/socialm85897394/status/1107009173408137216

Chilling.

Do people actually vote for this person?


#ProjectFear
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:15 pm

scbriml wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
https://mobile.twitter.com/socialm85897394/status/1107009173408137216

Chilling.

Do people actually vote for this person?


#ProjectFear


Oh I see. Its an actor making these claims to do away with opt outs.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:02 pm

seahawk wrote:
I think you misunderstand his proposal for an Ireland Economic Area (IEA). It would actually mean that Ireland would leave the common market.NI and Ireland would from on common area, imports and exports to the UK and to the EU would have to be checked.


Not exactly that but you get the drift, ROI still stay in the Common Market and NI in the UK, all goods entering will need to be check, all internal trade is frictionless goods going back and fourth inside between ROI/NI, freedom of movement is available to all Irish citizens and tourists, but not outside migration for work purposes. the border still remains for all goods coming from either the UK/EU just like it would if it came from a third country now or within the respective zones.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:20 pm

Well we all know the position of the EU remember these,

The European Union’s chief Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier, has said, “I’ll have done my job if, in the end, the deal is so tough on the British that they’d prefer to stay in the EU.”

&

Brexit must be a form of “punishment” for deserters - Jean Claude Juncker
 
BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:00 pm

I see that that massive Brexit march from Sunderland was a huge success. About 100 turned up. Farage buggered off back to London rather than March as he said he would do.

Let the UK commit economic suicide and leave the EU in a hard Brexit. I for one am sick and tired of the charades going on in London that has brought the whole of Europe to a halt for two years. The EU has better things to be doing than trying to keep two dozen silver spoon inbreds in a job.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
Bostrom
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:27 pm

 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:53 pm

BestWestern wrote:
Let the UK commit economic suicide and leave the EU in a hard Brexit. I for one am sick and tired of the charades going on in London that has brought the whole of Europe to a halt for two years. The EU has better things to be doing than trying to keep two dozen silver spoon inbreds in a job.


The EU hasn't stagnated in the past 2,5years the UK has. I think Brittain, for the most part, has been ignored, the UK had its hand full with itself.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
Let the UK commit economic suicide and leave the EU in a hard Brexit. I for one am sick and tired of the charades going on in London that has brought the whole of Europe to a halt for two years. The EU has better things to be doing than trying to keep two dozen silver spoon inbreds in a job.


The EU hasn't stagnated in the past 2,5years the UK has. I think Brittain, for the most part, has been ignored, the UK had its hand full with itself.


I’m not saying the EU has stagnated, but so much time and effort that could have been used on positive improvements over the last two years were squandered on idiotic Brexit minister like Davis and Rabb. (Rabb nownthinks he can become Prime Minister. He who hadn’t read the good Friday agreement (the causer of the backstop), nor realised the importance of Dover. Are these guys fucking deluded.

What I’m saying is, let the UK leave. Time to worry about making a better EU, rather than worrying about Eton debate style negotiations.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:27 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
https://mobile.twitter.com/socialm85897394/status/1107009173408137216

Chilling.

Do people actually vote for this person?


#ProjectFear


Oh I see. Its an actor making these claims to do away with opt outs.


Simplify sounds quite reasonable to me. Al these opt outs is indeed strange and ineffective. After a democratic vote there is nothing wrong with an implementation. What Guy Verhofstad is talking about is a core union with countries willing to implement everything and thus move closer together and a ring of associates with close ties to the EU, but not a core member. The choice lies with the democratically elected governments.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:34 pm

BestWestern wrote:
What I’m saying is, let the UK leave. Time to worry about making a better EU,


Let's make the EU better, I agree, lot's to do, but there is a solid foundation.

BestWestern wrote:
rather than worrying about Eton debate style negotiations.


Eton style? Those teens at Eton are not up to standard, those students at Oxford union and Cambridge union are quite entertaining. Been there many times during my student years or debating tournaments. :lol:
Lovely cities, but quite a bubble if you ever seen one.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:46 pm

It’s the bubble that is present in the House of Parliament - Eton boys (or
Spouses of Eton boys), educated in Oxford or Cambridge. Very Jolly Ho.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:22 am

Reinhardt wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I think the countries you named will indeed not be the countries whom will stop the extension, but countries like Hungary or Poland might.


My money is on Italy.


Indeed, if any will Italy will - because several MPs have been contacted and had meetings with British citizens with a Hard Brexit agenda and funding behind them. Many funded by the same / similar people to those MPs they met.


"Several MPs" don't have such a power.

If Salvini and Di Maio have any brains they won't help a hard Brexit to happen, a hard Brexit happening and being a mess is proof that populism is a bad idea.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:14 am

A101 wrote:
The European Union’s chief Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier, has said, “I’ll have done my job if, in the end, the deal is so tough on the British that they’d prefer to stay in the EU.”

&

Brexit must be a form of “punishment” for deserters - Jean Claude Juncker


Hang on... I thought “we held all the cards” and that “they need us more than we need them”?

Surely the brexiters are not wrong on this?!!!!
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:52 am

Richard28 wrote:
Hang on... I thought “we held all the cards” and that “they need us more than we need them”?

Surely the brexiters are not wrong on this?!!!!


No, they can't be wrong on it because they still think we can renegotiate the WA.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47607186
It would be "absurd" to hold another vote on the PM's Brexit deal before attempting further talks with the EU, Boris Johnson has claimed.

Writing in the Daily Telegraph, the leading Brexiteer said it was "not too late" to get changes to the deal, with EU leaders due to meet on Thursday.

But security minister Ben Wallace said Mr Johnson and other opponents of the deal were "ignoring the facts".


Rees-Mogg was on the radio news this morning urging a hard Brexit.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 9486
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:22 pm

scbriml wrote:
Rees-Mogg was on the radio news this morning urging a hard Brexit.


Just a day at the office then.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 201
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:52 pm

A101 wrote:

LJ wrote:
Your fishing industry is noncompetitive and has been for many years. The fishing industry in many EU countries is much more efficient (sometimes not liked by some other EU countries) or is bought by EU companies. Following your reasoning of the car industry it should have collapsed anyway.




It’s not that the UK fishing industry was not competitive, prior to joining the EEC the UK territorial EEZ was out to 200nm, once becoming a part of the EEC pushed us into the Common Fishing Policy which gave quota’s to members on those grounds and reduced the UK’s sovereign fishing areas to 12nm


We've already been over this. Owners of licenses to fish in UK waters primarily have gone to 4-6 big,wealthy families. Many of those then sold off these licenses or spare quotas to other countries. Perfectly legal under UK law. That is the reason why UK catches have fallen. The ones that remain are small fleets / individual self employed.

Please also remember that it was the UK fishing fleet prior to this that helped decimate the fish stocks, before harsh EU quotas were put in place. Cod stocks are only just starting to recover.

Fishing makes up 2% of GDP and the vast majority of the catch is exported from the UK anyway.

This is a red herring (pun intended).
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:53 pm

Aesma wrote:
The Big Brexit Short : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht40yrt3VrY

Bloomberg
Published on Mar 15, 2019
On the night of the Brexit referendum the British pound went into free fall, but while many watched with horror, a handful of hedge funds were making staggering profits. This is the story of the Brexit Big Short.


I saw this a few days ago too. Not at all suprised. Just shows you who Farage really is and what his agenda is.
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 201
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 pm

A101 wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:


Those that have experience with import/ export, production, world trade, economics ALL (with the very small exception of some discredited) have the same opinion on what would happen with the various different leave options. No nobody knows for sure what will happen, but we have a very good idea. Enough of an idea to show a hard brexit is an awful idea. We also strongly think, based on our experience (and I include myself here because of my experience) that remaining is the best deal.


No one has said it would not be a smooth transition once we left the EU, as you confirm no one really knows how much impact it will have. But we all agree that trade between the UK/EU is important even if it is on the decline between the EU/UK. I'm confident enough to know that a trade deal will be worked out between the EU/UK even if we leave without a WA


No but in these situations you listen to experts opinions. And when all the experts are telling you the same thing, you listen. You don't listen to those of the 'elite' with vested interests, those who lie with no factual backup, those with a history of appaling management of govenment departments or those who claim to be one of the people when they are ex investment bankers, flying around in private jets.

I have zero faith in the current govenment to negotiate anything.

What about the 60 odd other trade deals with other countries outside of the EU. How long will those take?


A101 wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:

Yes the people voted to leave, by a tiny margin
The vote was not fair
We don't believe the bus made a massive difference, but it was a clear lie - a small part of the entire vote leave campaign.
It was only ever non-binding
It was found out after the result, after Art50 had been implemented that one side cheated and had a significant effect on the result


Yep just like when we joined, it was part of the 1970 Tories manifesto we would negotiate to enter the ECC under the guise of prior consultation with the people either by a general election or a referendum. Heath even declared that it would be wrong if any Government contemplated joining the EEC were to take this step without `the full hearted consent of Parliament and people' by the way he never did. Opinion polls at the time in 1972 show a majority were against joining the EEC and parliament only passed the vote to join in the second reading by 8 votes.


No not just like when we joined. There wasn't whoesale fraud, there wasn't a non-binding referendum. There has been nearly 50 years for people to vote for a political party to leave then, they never did in enough numbers to do anything about it. Because it was our in interest and remains in our interest to be part of it.



A101 wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:

Democracy does not stand still. If people change their minds, if options change then it is perfectly valid and fair to go back to the population to ask for a clarification vote.


Yeah your right people can change there minds, but that doesn't mean it gives parliament the right to continue to hold referendums until the electorate achieve a result that majority of parliament want

Reinhardt wrote:

What is not right, and completely undemocratic is unelected persons visiting far right MPs in other countries, trying to persuade them not to allow an extenstion to article 50. That is treasonus if anything is.


Context is everything here, common people have a right to express there opinion to elected officials (unless your from North Korea )


We differ on what is acceptable then. Which actually sums up the entire debate.


A101 wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:


We look down at those that still are only able after all this time to spout the lies and mis-truths spoken by leading Brexiteers. So many people have no answer to the question 'what EU laws are you most looking forward to losing'. This is not an opinion it is established fact. All you have to do is read documents freely available online to find out what the truth is. If people are unable to do this, or unwilling then I have no respect for their opinion.


To the majority of those who want to leave its not about individual laws that we look forward to losing, its about making laws without outside influence and regaining full sovereign control to parliament and our legal system.

In a letter from Lord Kilmuir to Edward Heath it showed that Sovereignty would be lost in 3 way,
"Adherence to the Treaty of Rome would, in my opinion, affect our sovereignty in three ways:-
Parliament would be required to surrender some of its functions to the organs of the community, The Crown would be called on to transfer part of its treaty-making power to those organs of the community, and Our courts of law would sacrifice some degree of independence by becoming subordinate in certain respects to the European Court of Justice."


'Full sovereignty'. Sorry I just don't buy that we ever gave it up. I have no problem with the current setup of the EU and European Court of Justice. I think the UK has shown itself in the last few years to have a wholey ineffective parliament, appaling election processes and an outdated voting system.


A101 wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:

UK decided not to implement existing EU law when new countries joined the EU, or put restrictions on those who cannot support themselves.


That was due to the mass migration from new member states post 2004 when the UK, ROI and Sweden did not place any restrictions on freedom of movement, unlike most countries in the EU placed market restrictions


Yes that's exactly what I mean't. The UK could have done so, and should have done so = not the fault of the EU.



A101 wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:

But you completely miss exactly what we get back from it. Did you see the map of the UK and the regions that will loose funding from the EU when / if we leave? Did you then compare this with the paltry amount the UK govenment said it would put in it's place?

Those area's in theory will not lose any funding which the EU provides, as the net proportion of funding is less than the membership contributions from the UK. once we have left its up to government how to allocate those funds


Yes exactly my point. The current UK govenment is not prepared to match those previous levels because they don't give a crap about those areas of the country. Those areas are primarily leave voting, with much lower income levels and standards of living - they will be hit the hardest. They have no idea what is about to happen.


A101 wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:

This is the entire problem with Brexiteers arguement. It's just that, an opinion. Because every single time you post opinions they can be shown by fact to be wrong. The entire leave vote is based on lies, misunderstandings and feelings. If you had a single fact that was exactly that, factual then I'd look at it and if it was true I'd agree. But that has never happened.


Opinion's are like arsehole's everyone got one


Some are opinions, some are facts. I don't believe my side of the argument is opinion based, I believe it is fact based.
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 201
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:16 pm

Breaking news, and the last of my 4 post spam ;-)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -same-deal

Very interesting.
 
Bostrom
Posts: 770
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:46 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
Breaking news, and the last of my 4 post spam ;-)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -same-deal

Very interesting.


In short, no third vote in the commons on the same deal.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 17253
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:50 pm

Bostrom wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
Breaking news, and the last of my 4 post spam ;-)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -same-deal

Very interesting.


In short, no third vote in the commons on the same deal.


This was raised as a possible issue last week. Definitely a spanner in the works for May's plans.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2745
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:05 pm

scbriml wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
Breaking news, and the last of my 4 post spam ;-)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -same-deal

Very interesting.


In short, no third vote in the commons on the same deal.


This was raised as a possible issue last week. Definitely a spanner in the works for May's plans.


Theresa May could still try for MV3 - but there would need to be "substantive" changes - as negotiations have now stopped, if the EU does not re-open negotiations (likely) and Theresa May can't "bundle" MV3 with something else new to make substantive changes then the UK is in the position where it is forced to:

1) request long extension to A50 process - with new changes needed for this to be granted - such as referendum, and is subject to EU's consent.
2) try and go for Hard Brexit/default - which has already been ruled out by MPs with clear majority against it

If option (1) fails and MP's don't want (2) then only option left on the shelf is to revoke A50, likely followed by a General Election.

Last week Philip Hammond mentioned this possible ruling by Bercow and said government was not worried about it so I sense they think they will have room to manoeuvre an MV3 somehow....
 
LJ
Posts: 4764
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:39 pm

Richard28 wrote:
1) request long extension to A50 process - with new changes needed for this to be granted - such as referendum, and is subject to EU's consent.
2) try and go for Hard Brexit/default - which has already been ruled out by MPs with clear majority against it

If option (1) fails and MP's don't want (2) then only option left on the shelf is to revoke A50, likely followed by a General Election.


Wouldn't revocation of article 50 also need approval from her cabinet members? If so, will there be a majority in favor for such a move? In any case I doubt she'll get a vote on revoking article 50 through Parliament if she needs that. As such I think the odds for a no-deal Brexit are still the highest at the moment (though things may change quickly).
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:03 pm

Interesting times. My God, mr. Bercow cited rules going back to 1602. Extraordinary times need extraordinary measures.

I must admit, I am a fan, mr. Bercow.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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