User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8477
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:35 pm

kaitak wrote:
A respected radio show presenter on Ireland's Newstalk radio channel made an interesting point today: the British PM has no issue about getting MPs to vote several times on various deals, but allow the people a second chance to vote? No, that would be undemocratic. Seems illogical.

I hope they asked that respected show presenter what the 17+million people go when they went to the polls and said Yes to leaving the EU, that result has not yet been implemented but he wants to have another vote? I guess logic is in the eye of the beholder.
Let's say this, everyone was certain that the public would not vote to leave the EU, hence the parliament worded the question such.
Now everyone is also certain that if another vote is held, the public will vote to remain.

17+million people are now educated, a lot of them have now passed on and the truth is now out there, no more lies, so yes, as with the first vote, the outcome is certain.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8477
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:39 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
The EP's Brexit coordinator, Mr. Verhofstadt, has made it clear that for the EP it is impossible to agree to TM's demanded extension till the end of June.
The latest cut-off date for the European Parliament must be March 23rd because of it being the date of the European elections: the fear is that if the UK is granted an exit date beyond election day but before the EP first convenes like TM would like to make maximum use of the extra time offered, it will still not participate in those elections but it could still revoke article 50 last minute, meaning the European elections would become void and the EU would be without a valid EP and no EC for many months!

The EU should conduct its elections minus the UK, they voted to leave the EU so live goes on and the EU should move forward, no UK representative, no vote in the UK for UK citizens.
When the UK decides what they want to do they can initiate a dialogue, until then, let them have their cake and eat it too, vote down the WA agreement, vote down no hard brexit, vote down brexit and take control over the process and vote down everything.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2920
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:43 pm

the EU27 will offer TM an unconditional, but seriously shortened extension till 7 May only, unless by 11 April the UK signals to the EU that it is willing to take part in European Parliament elections in which case the offered extension lasts till the end of this year
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8477
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:05 pm

I honestly think they should not do so, who in the UK is going to signal anything, that will only happen if a new general election is held, and that cannot take place by 7th May much less 11 April.
The EU should exclude the UK from anything after 29th March, so if the UK wants back in, they should go through the membership process. It is not the EU's fault that the UK parliament cannot decide how to implement the peoples wishes.
 
Bostrom
Posts: 736
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:13 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Indeed: the drama is dead, long live the drama. Like I said before, a part of me just says let there be a hardest Brexit as possible and let the Brits take the hit, they wanted it (well the frontmen of Brexit all have made sure that they won't take a hit, but the normal Brits will). And I must say that part is growing with the minute..........


I have to admit that part of me is growing as well. Richard28 and scbriml, I feel sorry for you but thank you for showing us that there are still brits that realize the benefits of the EU. But, I'm starting to think that the EU might be better off without the UK. Let them leave and see if the grass is greener on the other side.
 
Bostrom
Posts: 736
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:16 pm

Image

At least the cartoonists of the world have plenty of material.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21134
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:25 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Really? We'll see what the pound does when you crash out, then there is clarity so in your world the market would stabilize instantly and nothing would happen.



I didn’t say that would happen, I said markets react to events, I think the UK economy is resilient enough to ride out the economic Impact until the future trade agreements are put in place with the EU and the rest of the world,

There won't be any future trade agreement with the EU while the UK was in default on its obligations, and any third country would put its own deals with the EU in jeopardy if it touched the UK while that was the case.

The UK could only climb out of that self-dug hole by again negotiating an equivalent to what is now the Withdrawal Agreement, just probably at less favourable terms after a hard Brexit. Short of that there simply wouldn't be any deal with the EU.

Leprosy would make you practically popular by comparison to hard Brexit.

economically I don’t belive we are in the same category as Greece.

No, you aren't. Greece is a full member of the European Union and benefits from that membership, while the UK would be out on its bum and effectively untouchable by any other country if it defaulted on its obligations, because any other country would think thrice before giving the UK the time of day while it refuses to pay up on its validated obligations to the EU, which is a much more coveted trading partner in the end.

A PWC report from 17 suggested that the UK will still be in the top 10 of world economy in the 2030, out of all the EU economy only Germany will be in front of the UK out of all EU members

Yeah, if you could fly after jumping off that cliff. News flash: You can't!
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 521
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:43 pm

par13del wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
The EP's Brexit coordinator, Mr. Verhofstadt, has made it clear that for the EP it is impossible to agree to TM's demanded extension till the end of June.
The latest cut-off date for the European Parliament must be March 23rd because of it being the date of the European elections: the fear is that if the UK is granted an exit date beyond election day but before the EP first convenes like TM would like to make maximum use of the extra time offered, it will still not participate in those elections but it could still revoke article 50 last minute, meaning the European elections would become void and the EU would be without a valid EP and no EC for many months!

The EU should conduct its elections minus the UK, they voted to leave the EU so live goes on and the EU should move forward, no UK representative, no vote in the UK for UK citizens.
When the UK decides what they want to do they can initiate a dialogue, until then, let them have their cake and eat it too, vote down the WA agreement, vote down no hard brexit, vote down brexit and take control over the process and vote down everything.


No can do. The Brexit has to happen before newly elected EP first sits, otherwise EP (and as a result, most EU governing bodies) loses legitimacy (unless UK MEP are there, as well). Having EP sit with a member state lacking representation is a recipe to make all EU decisions open to challenge, based on illegality
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8477
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:07 pm

So if the EU does not grant an extension, Brexit takes place on 29th March as per article 50, right?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8915
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:15 pm

par13del wrote:
So if the EU does not grant an extension, Brexit takes place on 29th March as per article 50, right?


Yes, crashing out without any measure taken.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17067
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:17 pm

par13del wrote:
So if the EU does not grant an extension, Brexit takes place on 29th March as per article 50, right?


Per current UK law, yes.

If an extension is granted by the EU, legislation needs to be passed in UK to change that law.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2097
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:27 pm

A101 wrote:
that's no different from most countries, there are lots a different rules between state, but they all follow the same trade rules as that is a national issue not county or state based.


I specifically mentioned foot & mouth for a reason.

NI were allowed to continue to sell into the continent while the rest of GB were embargo'ed till the outbreak in South Armagh/Louth.

If that is not different trading rules, I don't know what is.


edit: Oh and a no deal Brexit will almost inevitably mean a United Ireland within 12 months. Dunno how the DUP don't realise that!
 
A101
Posts: 706
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:52 pm

@Klaus

Who said we will default on the divorce bill, in the event of no deal I’m expecting an independent arbitrator to work thru it as they reached agreement in the WA for the amount
 
A101
Posts: 706
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:05 pm

Amiga500 wrote:

I specifically mentioned foot & mouth for a reason.

NI were allowed to continue to sell into the continent while the rest of GB were embargo'ed till the outbreak in South Armagh/Louth.

If that is not different trading rules, I don't know what is.


That’s a bio security issue not a trade issue


Amiga500 wrote:
edit: Oh and a no deal Brexit will almost inevitably mean a United Ireland within 12 months. Dunno how the DUP don't realise that!



Maybe, maybe not: I have for sometime said give NI the vote to either
A remain in UK
B merge with ROI
C become an independent sovereign nation
 
Klaus
Posts: 21134
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:23 pm

A101 wrote:
@Klaus

Who said we will default on the divorce bill, in the event of no deal I’m expecting an independent arbitrator to work thru it as they reached agreement in the WA for the amount

There's a limit to the weaseling out of standing obligations.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21134
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:27 pm

According to a leak published in the Spiegel, EU27 leaders have decided to offer the following to the UK:

1. If the House of Commons agrees to the WA as negotiated, the EU will grant an extension until May 22nd.

2. Otherwise there will be an extension only until April 12th because that's the final date to decide on participation in the EU Elections.

Implication: If the chaos in Westminster keeps going on, it's hard Brexit on April 13th, and that is the final date.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/b ... 59084.html
 
A101
Posts: 706
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:29 pm

Klaus wrote:
There's a limit to the weaseling out of standing obligations.



Care to expand, are you still talking about the divorce bill?
 
Klaus
Posts: 21134
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:42 pm

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
There's a limit to the weaseling out of standing obligations.



Care to expand, are you still talking about the divorce bill?

Standing obligations, which need to be settled after Brexit one way or the other – and you really don't want the other way!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8915
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:45 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
Oh, and this:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

Largest and fastest growing petition to parliament. Ever.


And also entirely irrelevant, since it isn't a referendum and anyone can sign it. I just went onto the website and searched for a random petition. The "safeguards" against manipulation are as follows:

1. A check-box asking signers to confirm that they are indeed UK Citizens.
2. A box asking for the provision of a UK postcode.

No. 1 is clearly no hurdle to anyone. On No.2, anyone can find a UK Postcode on the internet and enter it into the field provided, and plenty of non-citizens living in the UK (with no right to vote, or sign such a petition) can do exactly the same. It's not a watertight system by any stretch of the imagination.


2.000.000 signatures enough for you?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17067
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:00 pm

Klaus wrote:
Implication: If the chaos in Westminster keeps going on, it's hard Brexit on April 13th, and that is the final date.


That’s not how it’s being portrayed here (by BBC)

While we have yet to see the exact wording of the agreement, the suggestion is that 12th April isn’t necessarily an absolute deadline.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21134
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:12 pm

scbriml wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Implication: If the chaos in Westminster keeps going on, it's hard Brexit on April 13th, and that is the final date.


That’s not how it’s being portrayed here (by BBC)

While we have yet to see the exact wording of the agreement, the suggestion is that 12th April isn’t necessarily an absolute deadline.

British media have been misrepresenting the EU and everything about Brexit all the way. It's not a first.

The thing is that allowing the UK to stay beyond April 12th without activating EU elections in the UK would be inviting disaster and would damage EU interest so severely that that is simply not an option.

If that was allowed, the UK did not hold EU elections but then revoked Article 50 after already not having any MEPs that could effectively pull out the rug from under the new European Parliament, the newly elected Commission and any decisions made by the Parliament.

The damage to the EU could be so severe that there is just no more leeway for another extension if the UK government can't manage to have the WA agreed and still doesn't start its election participation be April 12th.

The options are just exhausted by that time.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17067
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:45 pm

Klaus wrote:
British media have been misrepresenting the EU and everything about Brexit all the way. It's not a first.


Printed media with an agenda, yes. However, I believe the BBC's reporting of matters relating to Brexit has been fair and balanced. The fact both remainers and brexiteers have complained about "BBC bias" suggests balance to me.

Klaus wrote:
The thing is that allowing the UK to stay beyond April 12th without activating EU elections in the UK would be inviting disaster and would damage EU interest so severely that that is simply not an option.


While you don't consider it an option, the wording of the EU27 communique appears to leave that very door open. See my highlighting in section 3 below.

The communique in full:
1. The European Council takes note of the letter of Prime Minister Theresa May of 20 March 2019.

2. In response, the European Council approves the Instrument relating to the Withdrawal Agreement and the Joint Statement supplementing the Political Declaration agreed between the European Commission and the government of the United Kingdom in Strasbourg on 11 March 2019.

3. The European Council agrees to an extension until 22 May 2019, provided the Withdrawal Agreement is approved by the House of Commons next week. If the Withdrawal Agreement is not approved by the House of Commons next week, the European Council agrees to an extension until 12 April 2019 and expects the United Kingdom to indicate a way forward before this date for consideration by the European Council.

4. The European Council reiterates that there can be no opening of the Withdrawal Agreement that was agreed between the Union and the United Kingdom in November 2018. Any unilateral commitment, statement or other act should be compatible with the letter and the spirit of the Withdrawal Agreement.

5. The European Council calls for work to be continued on preparedness and contingency at all levels for the consequences of the United Kingdom’s withdrawal, taking into account all possible outcomes.

6. The European Council will remain seized of the matter.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21134
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:56 am

scbriml wrote:
Klaus wrote:
British media have been misrepresenting the EU and everything about Brexit all the way. It's not a first.


Printed media with an agenda, yes. However, I believe the BBC's reporting of matters relating to Brexit has been fair and balanced. The fact both remainers and brexiteers have complained about "BBC bias" suggests balance to me.

That's the whole point: Most UK media are either completely in the bag for the billionaire brexiters or they are so intimidated that they actually try to hold the "balance" between facts and outright lies.

So you get about 50% pure lies from the BBC and they have almost completely given up on actually challenging lies in favour of just being "balanced" between facts and lies, mostly in fully being on board with the completely delusional narrative most UK politicians have agreed on in their shared groupthink and almost never venturing outside to the cold, hard real world of actually holding politicians to account.

Klaus wrote:
The thing is that allowing the UK to stay beyond April 12th without activating EU elections in the UK would be inviting disaster and would damage EU interest so severely that that is simply not an option.


While you don't consider it an option, the wording of the EU27 communique appears to leave that very door open. See my highlighting in section 3 below.

No, it says exactly what I've said above, including the implication: If Theresa May fails to win the WA vote that means she'll take the road that ends with April 12th, with the consequences I indicated.

That will be the last day to revoke Article 50 or to declare participation in the EU elections (given that the WA will have been rejected at that point), or the UK will drop out of the EU with a hard Brexit the next day.

The EU elections are a hard boundary to the Westminster shenanigans and ironically the absurd decision of the ECJ allowing for unilateral revocation of Article 50 actually takes away any chance of an extension until June 30 because that option makes such an extension absolutely and totally toxic with the then very real revocation risk after it's already too late to heal the UK's lack of MEPs. Seeking that judgment has actually curtailed the UK's options in that respect, not extended them!
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8477
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:02 am

Klaus wrote:
Implication: If the chaos in Westminster keeps going on, it's hard Brexit on April 13th, and that is the final date.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/b ... 59084.html

One thing that there has been no chaos about, they have consistently voted down the negotiated WA, why the EU is adamant on that being passed I do not know.
I suspect that even if the DUP decided to accept it the vote would still fail.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8477
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:13 am

scbriml wrote:
3. The European Council agrees to an extension until 22 May 2019, provided the Withdrawal Agreement is approved by the House of Commons next week. If the Withdrawal Agreement is not approved by the House of Commons next week, the European Council agrees to an extension until 12 April 2019 and expects the United Kingdom to indicate a way forward before this date for consideration by the European Council.

I take this to mean that if the WA is voted down the UK must come up with some other option, scarp WA and start over, etc.
scbriml wrote:
4. The European Council reiterates that there can be no opening of the Withdrawal Agreement that was agreed between the Union and the United Kingdom in November 2018. Any unilateral commitment, statement or other act should be compatible with the letter and the spirit of the Withdrawal Agreement.

This one can be seen to contradict my opinion of 3, which is WA or bust, so is this more of having cake and eating it too?
 
Klaus
Posts: 21134
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:45 am

par13del wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Implication: If the chaos in Westminster keeps going on, it's hard Brexit on April 13th, and that is the final date.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/b ... 59084.html

One thing that there has been no chaos about, they have consistently voted down the negotiated WA, why the EU is adamant on that being passed I do not know.
I suspect that even if the DUP decided to accept it the vote would still fail.

We don't care any more. It's your funeral, so it's on your MPs to hit the brakes before the precipice or face the consequences.

Rejecting the WA is not an arbitrary political maneuver the way your MPs keep treating it, it has very real consequences which are now unavoidable: If they reject it in this final week, there will be no negotiated Brexit with finality, and the transition period will be off the table, too.

Then it's down to
a) hard Brexit,
b) revocation of Article 50 or
c) a request for another extension which could only be possible by unequivocally declaring the UK's participation in the EU elections, but that would be so toxic to the EU that it is unlikely the EU27 leaders would agree to it without major additional concessions, and I hear that it would be sort of unpalatable to the UK as well.

The insanity is that people in the House of Commons are actually actively pushing for that confrontation between the two extreme outcomes among a total inability and even disinterest in any kind of constructive compromise in the interest of their own country, only further contributing to the total loss of trust and credibility by other countries, not just by the EU but any prospective trade partners elsewhere, too. It's not often that a country collectively loses face on the global stage by its own actions to such an extent, at least in the past 70 years.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21134
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:52 am

par13del wrote:
scbriml wrote:
3. The European Council agrees to an extension until 22 May 2019, provided the Withdrawal Agreement is approved by the House of Commons next week. If the Withdrawal Agreement is not approved by the House of Commons next week, the European Council agrees to an extension until 12 April 2019 and expects the United Kingdom to indicate a way forward before this date for consideration by the European Council.

I take this to mean that if the WA is voted down the UK must come up with some other option, scarp WA and start over, etc.

That would blow up the 22 May extension and the then remaining period until April 12 would effectively just allow the UK to brace for impact with a hard Brexit or to revoke Article 50, with a request for participation in the EU elections being just a theoretically possible absurdity under the circumstances.

The rejection would exclude anything but only extreme outcomes. But given how UK politicians roll nowadays, that would just be par for the course.

scbriml wrote:
4. The European Council reiterates that there can be no opening of the Withdrawal Agreement that was agreed between the Union and the United Kingdom in November 2018. Any unilateral commitment, statement or other act should be compatible with the letter and the spirit of the Withdrawal Agreement.

This one can be seen to contradict my opinion of 3, which is WA or bust, so is this more of having cake and eating it too?

Not at all. It just strips away any remaining delusions that there could be a hope of renegotiating the WA in any way.

If the WA is rejected, that's it. That's what that says!
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6911
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:55 am

par13del wrote:
scbriml wrote:
3. The European Council agrees to an extension until 22 May 2019, provided the Withdrawal Agreement is approved by the House of Commons next week. If the Withdrawal Agreement is not approved by the House of Commons next week, the European Council agrees to an extension until 12 April 2019 and expects the United Kingdom to indicate a way forward before this date for consideration by the European Council.

I take this to mean that if the WA is voted down the UK must come up with some other option, scarp WA and start over, etc.

No, Klaus' interpretation is correct. I heard the Danish PM explain it in plain Danish language.

WA agreed next week:
Brexit day may be extended until 22 May 2019 - allowing 7 weeks for practical implementation of WA.

WA not agreed next week:
Brexit day may be extended to 12 April 2019, if the UK wants it so - that day then substitutes 29 March, which means that the UK until that day may (not must) bring forward to the EU commission for consideration, anything up to and including informing that the House of Commons has voted to cancel A50. And the ball is fully on the UK side, the EU will say no more, Mr. Barnier's job has been fulfilled.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8267
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:16 am

For decades the UK government has blamed the EU parliament.

Now the government has blamed the UK parliament.

The emperor has no clothes.

Be gone UK. You deserve what you voted for.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
jcancel
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:41 am

No the Brexiteers need to learn they made a mistake. Make the Brexiteers admit fault, keep the UK in the EU, and change the Brexit supporters into Remainers.

BestWestern wrote:
For decades the UK government has blamed the EU parliament.

Now the government has blamed the UK parliament.

The emperor has no clothes.

Be gone UK. You deserve what you voted for.
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6542
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:45 am

At least someone intends making money out of the whole mess:
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/dub ... 38482.html
 
787Driver
Posts: 458
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:05 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:42 am

Ah damn. A delay to Brexit. Can’t they just leave the rest of us alone already?
 
A101
Posts: 706
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:25 am

I found this on reddit, ya gota laugh sometimes hey.....

Okay, Prime Minister, there's pretty much just one more shot at passing your deal. We need to sell people on the benefits. It's the MPs you need to get on board. More carrot, less stick, yeah?"

"I've got it."

"Great"

"HOW COME ALL YOU FUCKING IDIOTS AREN'T VOTING FOR MY DEAL AND FUCKING UP THE COUNTRY??"
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8915
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:25 am

par13del wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Implication: If the chaos in Westminster keeps going on, it's hard Brexit on April 13th, and that is the final date.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/b ... 59084.html

One thing that there has been no chaos about, they have consistently voted down the negotiated WA, why the EU is adamant on that being passed I do not know.
I suspect that even if the DUP decided to accept it the vote would still fail.


Because Brittian has failed to come up with an acceptable alternative to it. Remember this is a negotiated piece between the EU en UK government.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
LJ
Posts: 4734
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:45 am

A101 wrote:
@Klaus

Who said we will default on the divorce bill, in the event of no deal I’m expecting an independent arbitrator to work thru it as they reached agreement in the WA for the amount


Why does one need an independent arbitrator. If the UK wants trade deal with the EU, the EU can ask anything they want. It's called "sovereignty" and "taking control".

par13del wrote:
One thing that there has been no chaos about, they have consistently voted down the negotiated WA, why the EU is adamant on that being passed I do not know.


Because the EU has a deal with the UK. If it's not passed, there is no deal. You cannot (at least officially) say something else than what the EU is currently is saying. Anyway, if the WA is voted down, they have a few days to come up with an alternative.
 
KLDC10
Posts: 1335
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:57 am

Dutchy wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
Oh, and this:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

Largest and fastest growing petition to parliament. Ever.


And also entirely irrelevant, since it isn't a referendum and anyone can sign it. I just went onto the website and searched for a random petition. The "safeguards" against manipulation are as follows:

1. A check-box asking signers to confirm that they are indeed UK Citizens.
2. A box asking for the provision of a UK postcode.

No. 1 is clearly no hurdle to anyone. On No.2, anyone can find a UK Postcode on the internet and enter it into the field provided, and plenty of non-citizens living in the UK (with no right to vote, or sign such a petition) can do exactly the same. It's not a watertight system by any stretch of the imagination.


2.000.000 signatures enough for you?


Erm, no.
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
737/738/739/744/748/752/763/772/789
A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/A346/A359
Q400/E170/E175/E190/CS300
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11427
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:20 am

par13del wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Implication: If the chaos in Westminster keeps going on, it's hard Brexit on April 13th, and that is the final date.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/b ... 59084.html

One thing that there has been no chaos about, they have consistently voted down the negotiated WA, why the EU is adamant on that being passed I do not know.
I suspect that even if the DUP decided to accept it the vote would still fail.


They insist on it because there is no more time to negotiate anything else.

Now if the UK takes back article 50, that's another story, and apparently the EU can't do anything about that, I suspect resuming negotiations on leaving will be extremely difficult after that trick, though.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2097
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:32 am

A101 wrote:
That’s a bio security issue not a trade issue


A bio security issue which meant different trade rules for NI compared to UK.
 
User avatar
speedygonzales
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:01 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:34 am

Macron thinks there's a 5% chance that the WA will pass, Tusk thinks Macron is being very optimistic.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKCN1R30AZ
Reuters wrote:
French President Emmanuel Macron told the room that before coming to Brussels he had thought May had only a 10 percent chance of winning the vote. After listening to the prime minister, he said, he had cut his estimate — to five percent.

To general assent, one person present said, summit chair Donald Tusk shot back that Macron was being “very optimistic”.
Ignorance kills. :tombstone:
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17067
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:57 am

Klaus wrote:
So you get about 50% pure lies from the BBC


Sorry, but that's just patent nonsense.

Klaus wrote:
No, it says exactly what I've said above, including the implication: If Theresa May fails to win the WA vote that means she'll take the road that ends with April 12th, with the consequences I indicated.


Well, we've been here before, haven't we? IIRC you were adamant that the UK couldn't unilaterally revoke A50.

I get it, you don't like it. We'll see where it goes.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1633
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:18 am

KLDC10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:

And also entirely irrelevant, since it isn't a referendum and anyone can sign it. I just went onto the website and searched for a random petition. The "safeguards" against manipulation are as follows:

1. A check-box asking signers to confirm that they are indeed UK Citizens.
2. A box asking for the provision of a UK postcode.

No. 1 is clearly no hurdle to anyone. On No.2, anyone can find a UK Postcode on the internet and enter it into the field provided, and plenty of non-citizens living in the UK (with no right to vote, or sign such a petition) can do exactly the same. It's not a watertight system by any stretch of the imagination.


2.000.000 signatures enough for you?


Erm, no.


Maybe they don't have petitions wherever you live, but this is a heck of a lot more accurate than the traditional list of scribbles on pieces of paper. If you can't see millions of people's opinions as significant - even allowing for some fudging of numbers - then you're not democratic.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17067
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:29 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

2.000.000 signatures enough for you?


Erm, no.


Maybe they don't have petitions wherever you live, but this is a heck of a lot more accurate than the traditional list of scribbles on pieces of paper. If you can't see millions of people's opinions as significant - even allowing for some fudging of numbers - then you're not democratic.


2,728,265 and counting...
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2920
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:38 am

The EU's reply to TM's straight forward request for an unconditional and very risky extension till June 30th is brilliant from a diplomatic point-of-view for 3 reasons:
1/ EU-27 officially show a little bit more patience with a clearly very confused memberstate, so they will not now be seen to force UK into a terrible no-deal outcome
2/ Keeps EU unity right till the very end (quite a difference from what the Brexiteers like BoJo had expected right up till last week even, isn't it?)
3/ Leaves about 2 weeks of time between the expected rejection of the deal in MV3 and the date at which the the UK actually crashes out of the EU for Parliament to finally take back control from the Government, but doesn't give it enough time to pass any legislation to fully prepare for a 'no-deal' brexit on behalf of that Government.

Remarkable to see EU leaders deliberately tipping the balance from the UK executive to the UK legislature at the end of this process, a sign they do not expect much from TM any longer (whos mind seems to be made up that in case her deal doesn't pass, its 'no deal' then just to safe her own face and preserve unity in her party) and want to hear from Parliament itself what the UK wants: Parliament speaks for all Britts, TM clearly just for her Tory party who's not even holding a majority in the House.

By going over the head of TM, the UK is given a final and brief chance to radially change course (the EU is even offering a clear incentive now: avoiding the disasterous and completely ill-prepared 'no -deal' TM always said would be prefered over any bad deal) ,and if it doesn't, the blame will be entirely upon them rather than the EU: well played actually!

The EU has completely outmanoeuvered TM and the UK... Goes also a long way at telling you want you can expect for the even more complicated and contentious second phase: that of the negotiations on the future end state! Wonder how many PM's the Tories are going to burn on this issue, once they start to realise the full consequences of the dire situation they have manoeuvered their country in...
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2920
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:01 am

the EU's Council decision in less diplomatic terms:

"The terms of the extension are not drafted for the prime minister’s benefit. They contain a message from the EU direct to the House of Commons. In crude terms: piss or get off the pot. If you want to leave with a deal, vote for the damned deal. If you are foolish enough to leave without a deal, do not blame us. Have a couple more weeks to think about it. But if you want something else, a referendum or a softer Brexit, work it out soon. And then send someone who isn’t May to talk to us about it."(Rafael Behr)

May is finished in Brussels, no matter what comes next: it's completely unseen for the EU to go over the head of a memberstate government and force a vote staight in a memberstate's parliament! Taking back control, right? ROTFL. National humiliation, yes!

Meanwhile, the second day of the EU summit in Brussels sees no longer a British PM around the table, but rather the government leaders from the 3 non-EU countries in the EEA (European Economic Area): Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein to celebrate the 25th aniversary of the EEA and to talk about future collaboration and ways to intergrate further.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17067
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:20 am

Klaus wrote:
If the WA is rejected, that's it. That's what that says!


That's your interpretation. Apparently, Donald Tusk sees it differently.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47663031
In a press conference, European Council President Donald Tusk said that, until 12 April - the deadline by which the UK would have to indicate whether it would stand candidates in the 2019 European Parliament elections - "all options remain on the table".

The UK government "will still have a chance of a deal, no deal, a long extension or revoking Article 50" until 12 April, he said."


I appreciate this is from the lying BBC so it's probably not good enough for you. :sarcastic:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8915
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:35 am

scbriml wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:

Erm, no.


Maybe they don't have petitions wherever you live, but this is a heck of a lot more accurate than the traditional list of scribbles on pieces of paper. If you can't see millions of people's opinions as significant - even allowing for some fudging of numbers - then you're not democratic.


2,728,265 and counting...


Massive, that is quite a signal to UK Parliament. 5% of the electorate are supporting this petition.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8915
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:41 am

scbriml wrote:
Klaus wrote:
If the WA is rejected, that's it. That's what that says!


That's your interpretation. Apparently, Donald Tusk sees it differently.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47663031
In a press conference, European Council President Donald Tusk said that, until 12 April - the deadline by which the UK would have to indicate whether it would stand candidates in the 2019 European Parliament elections - "all options remain on the table".

The UK government "will still have a chance of a deal, no deal, a long extension or revoking Article 50" until 12 April, he said."


I appreciate this is from the lying BBC so it's probably not good enough for you. :sarcastic:


By April 12th Parlemaint has to know what it wants to continue, no decision will mean automatic crashing out of the EU without a parachute. So no decision is a very clear decision, the EU is readying itself, how far along is the UK?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8477
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:43 am

Wonder where the Russians and their hackers are in all this, they have been accused of being in everything else, what makes this any different?
 
A101
Posts: 706
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:45 am

Amiga500 wrote:

A bio security issue which meant different trade rules for NI compared to UK.


Ah no, so you telling me if the bio security risk had been lifted that the importation restrictions would not have been lifted across the EU?

Would that not defeat the purpose of being in the CU and even tho it was the same restriction placed on beef from the Ireland, as I said it wasn’t a trade related issue it was a bio-security issue.
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1633
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:45 am

par13del wrote:
Wonder where the Russians and their hackers are in all this, they have been accused of being in everything else, what makes this any different?


I don't think it's in their interests for the UK to stay in the EU after all... so no - this is not hacking.

Edit: also, I fully expect GCHQ or whoever to be monitoring this event since it has political significance and is a government website. Bet you they keep track of the originating IP addresses and corresponding e-mail addresses - and can even link that to the supplied postcodes (which in the UK is a highly accurate address often being shared by only one or two houses).
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dutchy, PhilBy, seb146 and 38 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos