User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17359
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:47 am

A101 wrote:
That's because the TM WA does not respect the referendum, If we sign that it gives the EU the final say if the UK can leave the EU not the other way around.
Does the term "parliament may not bind its successors" ring a bell.


So it's not the Brexit you want?

Here's an idea - why not have a say in what the final outcome is? Now that you know all the facts and have, say, three options on the table, wouldn't you want to have a say on which was selected? Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

The UK should remain in the EU.
OR
The UK should leave the EU:
    with the negotiated deal.
    OR
    with no deal on WTO terms.

Three options, one choice.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
olle
Posts: 1163
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:07 am

Perhaps this EU election will be the election where uk people really inform themself and take the election serious.

Who could guess that uk needed to tear themself apart before this happens.

Ukip replaced by remain UK MEPs?
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3039
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:45 am

Interesting reading the tabloids this morning!
Whereas in the past they all kicked and screamed out loudly AGAINST this deal which they called "vassalage", "slavery", "total surrender", "final deceit" etc, they now suddely seem to be backing the exact same deal and go after those MPs which stick to their conviction and voted against the same deal for a 3rd time.

We all understand the deal itself hasn't changed a bit, but TM offered her job in return for a YES vote, meaning a lot of her MPs immediately imagined themself becoming the new PM and suddely vasselage isn't such a bad situation for their country then any longer, but you got to wonder what the tabloid owners (because they pull the strings as to what is written, remember), have to win from it the sudden change of mind. ;)

Anyway: here are some past quotes from high profile brexiteers suddely voting for the WA they previously said was inacceptable and the worst possible outcome, as soon as they see a change of becoming King of the Castle themselves, even if it is just a ruin...
Clearly no spine, no strength of conviction at all: simple pure self-interest.

"The EU will be our colonial masters, and there will not be a damn thing we can do about any of it. Will I vote for this backstop, as things stand? NO WAY.”
Boris Johnson
He voted YES yesterday...

"This withdrawal agreement condemns the United Kingdom to vassalage at a cost of £39bn and although fewer areas of British life would be affected by EU regulation than is currently the case, in several very important departments there would be even less control than there is now.”
Jacob Rees-Mogg
He voted YES yesterday...

"This withdrawal agreement does not respect the referendum result.”
David Davis
He voted YES yesterday... in fact he already voted YES on MV2!

"The withdrawal agreement makes clear the plan is to lock the UK in the EU’s Customs Union for goods and agricultural products and keep it subject to the ECJ."
Iain Duncan Smith
He voted YES yesterday

But this one just hast to top it!
“I cannot reconcile the terms of the proposed deal with the promises we made to the country in our manifesto at the last election. This is, at its heart, a matter of public trust. Ultimately, you deserve a Brexit secretary who can make the case for the deal you are pursuing with conviction. I am only sorry, in good conscience, that I cannot.”
Dominic Raab, when he resigned as Brexit Secretary, after first having negotiated the WA he suddely seemed to hate...
He voted YES yesterday for the deal he negotiated and then resigned over because it was said to be piss-poor!

And these are the guys that are supposed to take control back from Brussels? ROTFL
Can't wait for their opening positions on where they think they'll land with their FTA with Europe: make sure to save a link to their comments, because it will for sure be hilarious reading once that final trade deal with the EU is revealed.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17359
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:41 am

olle wrote:
Who could guess that uk needed to tear themself apart before this happens.


If Brexit doesn't happen, it will hopefully tear up the two-part system and lead to a fairer system. In reality both Tories and to a slightly lesser extent Labour are two parties within one, locked in an endless struggle for dominance.

The Tories are really a right-wing party and a centrist party that are constantly fighting each other. Labour is a left-wing party and centrist party that swing between control of the party. We need the centrist parts of both parties to join together with Change UK and form one, strong centrist party. Maybe even the Lib Dems could join with them?

That would leave us with a right-wing Conservative party, a left-wing Labour party and a larger, possibly multi-party centrist group. Then we need some form of proportional representation and working coalition governments. I can dream, can't I?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:15 am

All the remainers that constantly sulk and whine here, annoyed that they did not get their own way, I do have a question for you.

If Remain had won 52-48% but the government took us out the EU anyway, how would you feel?
 
A101
Posts: 1166
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:41 am

ChrisKen wrote:

Once again, you're repeatedly focusing on just one part of the referendum result, not the whole picture. The referendum is advisory, the result advised that the electorate are split, with no clear preference. Parliament reflects this admirably.
You keep on banging on about the 'will of the people', which people? Your answer is blindly and repeatedly just the "leave" section of the electorate from an advisory vote, conveniently ignoring the rest of the electorate during that vote and the wider population as a whole.
.


I guess we should agree to disagree, but the one verifiable fact is the UK has an uncodified UK constitution and as such UK parliamentary sovereignty has been recognised to have unlimited legislative power, although the vote at referendum was non-binding it still needed parliament approval to be acted upon which was duly granted under European Union Referendum Act 2015 (c. 36), the act did not require any specified level of support in terms of votes, or a specific turnout or a double majority such as 3 out of the four countries that make up the United Kingdom. ( it has in the past placed a special majority on the devolution referendum of 1979)

Parliament then voted on the result of the referendum, which by passing the required legislation to invoke Article 50 parliament recognised it was in the national interest to respect the results of the referendum and as such knew what the end game was if no agreement could be satisfactorily reached a no deal exist. Whilst remainers continue to say an agreement was reached with TM's WA, it still needed parliamentary process to be enacted upon under parliamentary sovereignty.

I imagine when the dust settles on Brexit there may be a royal commission into the whole affair and seek clarification on a number of areas for which the system has fallen down. popular sovereignty(will of the people) and parliamentary sovereignty appear to be at odds. Which, if either, ought to predominate?
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 795
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:28 pm

A101 wrote:
I guess we should agree to disagree, but the one verifiable fact is the UK has an uncodified UK constitution and as such UK parliamentary sovereignty has been recognised to have unlimited legislative power, although the vote at referendum was non-binding it still needed parliament approval to be acted upon which was duly granted under European Union Referendum Act 2015 (c. 36), the act did not require any specified level of support in terms of votes, or a specific turnout or a double majority such as 3 out of the four countries that make up the United Kingdom. ( it has in the past placed a special majority on the devolution referendum of 1979)

Parliament then voted on the result of the referendum, which by passing the required legislation to invoke Article 50 parliament recognised it was in the national interest to respect the results of the referendum and as such knew what the end game was if no agreement could be satisfactorily reached a no deal exist. Whilst remainers continue to say an agreement was reached with TM's WA, it still needed parliamentary process to be enacted upon under parliamentary sovereignty.

I imagine when the dust settles on Brexit there may be a royal commission into the whole affair and seek clarification on a number of areas for which the system has fallen down. popular sovereignty(will of the people) and parliamentary sovereignty appear to be at odds. Which, if either, ought to predominate?

Yada yada, your premise is fundamentally flawed the second you take the position that "leave's" number was all that mattered and that number is the be all and end all of the referendum result. It isn't, wasn't and never will be. I wont' agree to disagree, because you are entirely incorrect with regards to the referendum result, it's fundamental meaning and the concept of an advisory vote. Parliament is not at odds with "the people's will", it's very accurately reflecting it, hence the omnishambles.

Yes they've enacted article 50. Guess what, they can withdraw it too by Parliamentary process. Parliament has full sovereignty over brexit. In the light that No Deal will be rather contrary to the UK's interests and has been utterly ruled out by Parliament, and seemingly no agreement can be reached by Parliament on a WA, which is the only option left to them?

While "No Deal" may be the default result of article 50, Parliament have categorically ruled out such an outcome. They will have to act accordingly. ergo take a fundamentally pointless 'deal' or remain with all the rights and privileges we enjoy as an EU member.
 
A101
Posts: 1166
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:39 pm

ChrisKen wrote:

remain remains the default position.



No it isn’t, no deal exit is the only option that dosnt have to be passed by parliament as it’s automatic at the end of the notification time limit, remain revoke A50 WA all need to be passed by an act of parliament
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 795
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:17 pm

A101 wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:

remain remains the default position.



No it isn’t, no deal exit is the only option that dosnt have to be passed by parliament as it’s automatic at the end of the notification time limit, remain revoke A50 WA all need to be passed by an act of parliament

Maybe read the post before quoting the reply to norowhatsits's hypothetical out of context. Not like a gammon to stamp their feet and shout over misquotes and vague soundbites is it?

But if you want to get arsey about it. Parliament have voted repeatedly voted to not allow a no deal brexit. while it may be article 50's default position Parliament have voted against this happening. By default, Parliament will have to act to avoid it. But I've already covered this in the reply to your post.

No deal will not happen, Parliament have already vowed to stop it from occurring, ergo it is Parliament's default position to stop it from occurring. The question is how will it be achieve, will it be via a pointless WA or by withdrawing article 50 notice and remaining. Time will tell.

Would it help if I plastered it on the side of a bus?
Last edited by ChrisKen on Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:26 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
A101 wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:

remain remains the default position.



No it isn’t, no deal exit is the only option that dosnt have to be passed by parliament as it’s automatic at the end of the notification time limit, remain revoke A50 WA all need to be passed by an act of parliament

Maybe read the post before quoting the reply to norowhatsits's hypothetical out of context. Not like a gammon to stamp their feet and shout over misquotes and vague soundbites is it?

But if you want to get arsey about it. Parliament have voted repeatedly voted to not allow a no deal brexit. while it may be article 50's default position Parliament have voted against this happening. By default, Parliament will have to act to avoid it. But I've already covered this in the reply to your post.

No deal will not happen, Parliament have already vowed to stop it from occurring, ergo it is Parliament's default position to stop it from occurring. The question is how will it be achieve, will it be via a pointless WA or by withdrawing article 50 notice and remaining. Time will tell.


No deal may happen.

It is wishful thinking and ignorance not to accept this.
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 795
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:18 pm

Pot, kettle.....
I couldn't give a flying fox about you thinking differently, I have defended your rights to do so.

You may wish to look up the definition of ignorant, you appear to be misinformed on that one too.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11728
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:39 pm

In France we do referendums a bit more often as in the UK, and some of them have been won by thin margins (including Maastricht), however I don't think a Frexit referendum would have been done in similar conditions as the Brexit one. We have just had a referendum in New Caledonia over the potential independence of that territory, that was the result of a deal made 30 YEARS ago, with a first vote 20 years ago, and two more potential votes in the near future.

I'm not saying Frexit would take 30 years, but I would think the date should be announced 2 or 3 years in advance, so that a healthy debate can happen in the country, with serious studies on the outcome, various scenarios, etc.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9777
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:24 pm

I think mr. Bettel - prime minister of Luxembourg - has quite a brilliant remark:

Bettel wrote:
Bettel says last year he said the UK used to be in the EU, with lots of opt-outs. Now it wants to be out, but with lots of opt-ins. It is not possible to have all those advantages, he says. He says the deal is the best available.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfglV_QZn7o
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17359
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:25 pm

Dutchy wrote:
He says the deal is the best available.


But nowhere near as good as being in.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9777
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:30 pm

scbriml wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
He says the deal is the best available.


But nowhere near as good as being in.


yes, but it also looks like the European leadership is fat up with Brittish exceptionalism. Whatever the outcome, it is safe to say: the Brittish position has weakened considerably.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 3823
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:31 pm

Some more wise words from Nicola Sturgeon.

"Theresa May must be the only leader in living memory who has tried to fall on her own sword and has managed to miss" – @NicolaSturgeon at #FMQs


https://twitter.com/mabonelis/status/11 ... 1341986817

Image


Image

A ‘pro-Brexit’ group’s attempt to engage its followers with a second referendum poll has hilariously backfired. Britain Bites Back decided to run a poll on Facebook in response to the Revoke Article 50 petition attracting more than five million signatures. They purportedly wanted to prove how ‘pointless that petition really is’ and assumed its fan base of supposed Leavers would back them up.


https://metro.co.uk/2019/03/27/pro-brex ... YJ5OPNXHfI


No UK Prime Minister ever explained to British people what EU did for them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh4xPvRR2oA

Busy times at the ministry of food supplies:

More than two-thirds of Defra staff moved to Brexit-related roles
More than two-thirds of all staff employed by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) are working on delivering Brexit, according to official figures released by the government.

The response to a freedom of information request also shows that 320 staff have been transferred from other parts of Whitehall to help Michael Gove’s department cope with preparations for leaving the EU.

The figures show that by the end of last year, Defra had placed more than 2,700 staff into “EU exit roles”, amounting to 68% of the total 3,989 staff working for the department and all its agencies.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ated-roles


Klaus wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Even with the ERG caving in, the DUP are still adamant that they will not vote for it, so MV3 will be a lot closer than the two previous votes. It's still expected to fail if the DUP don't support it.

I'm pretty sure the DUP is giddily observing how the bribe for their votes is inflating by the minute...

1 billion? No, this time they won't be bought quite that cheaply...!


Haha you're probably right.

sabenapilot wrote:
Best proof this is all about self-interest and personal careers of overly ambitious MPs, nothing to do with 'keeping the Union' intact as they often pretend.


Oh exactly. Brexit has had more to do with internal Tory party politics than anything to do with the EU. Heck the referendum was only held in the first place so that David Cameron could try and appease some of the hard-right-wing party members and stop them defecting to UKIP.

ltbewr wrote:
No matter what happens from no-deal Brexit to revoking Article 50, the UK will never be the same. The battles have badly destroyed what little trust the voters had in the Parliament and the UK's relations with the EC may go back to the 50's.


If the hard-right and EuroSceptic nutters lose faith in the political process and stops voting, the UK could reap many benefits. :lol:

marcelh wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:
The fact that Brexit day has effectively just become the day in which Brexit begins it's death is, frankly, hilarious.


I hope the EU kicks them out on april 12th.


Guaranteed this will make them want back in. ;)

BestWestern wrote:
That’s really going to help things. A two year delay so the Tories can elect another silver spooned Eton clone, vs a man who hasn’t managed to demonstrate that the opposition are any better than perhaps the worst government in the History of the United Kingdom.

Well said, mate.



BestWestern wrote:
Easiest negotiation in history.

I agree. For an extension the EI should demand the following.

Revoke article 50.
New referendum in January 2020 based on Theresa’s deal or stay.

Make them adopt the Euro too, just to rub in a little salt. :lol:
First to fly the 787-9
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:55 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
Pot, kettle.....
I couldn't give a flying fox about you thinking differently, I have defended your rights to do so.

You may wish to look up the definition of ignorant, you appear to be misinformed on that one too.


Am I?

Course I am pal.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9777
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:13 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
Pot, kettle.....
I couldn't give a flying fox about you thinking differently, I have defended your rights to do so.

You may wish to look up the definition of ignorant, you appear to be misinformed on that one too.


Am I?

Course I am pal.


Could you describe how your life is going to better after a hard-Brexit?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1166
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:23 am

Dutchy wrote:

Could you describe how your life is going to better after a hard-Brexit?


I can’t answer for anyone else but......

That’s like saying how life will be better if we stay in the EU long term, no one really knows, it’s also say would we have been better off not joining the union in the first place, no one can really say equivocally for good or bad

Yeah sure short term things will be chaotic standards may actually dip, but no one has the answers to long term aspects to it financially to the average UK citizens, there’s people who do it tough with the UK being in the EU has it enriched their lives, you don’t need to be Einstein to figure out their answer because they already feel the system has let them down.

As to the OQ that’s a matter of personal situation, in my line of work is not reliant on cross border trade, but that’s not say cross border trade dosnt influence my way of life, the EU is not a one fit for all and while the decision’s made effect countries in different ways some may have positive results some have negative results.

Look I’m not suggesting that once the UK leaves and we have 100% independent policy making ability every policy or action will be the right one far from it, what I don’t want is some other jurisdiction making policy for the UK.
 
jcancel
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:12 am

Finlandization though can become quite extensive even if de jure independence is maintained. Finland had to censor entertainment so it didn't rile up the Soviets too much before 1991. Nauru essentially has control from Australia.

Theres a fear of the UK being finlandized to a high degree by the US.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Could you describe how your life is going to better after a hard-Brexit?


I can’t answer for anyone else but......

That’s like saying how life will be better if we stay in the EU long term, no one really knows, it’s also say would we have been better off not joining the union in the first place, no one can really say equivocally for good or bad

Yeah sure short term things will be chaotic standards may actually dip, but no one has the answers to long term aspects to it financially to the average UK citizens, there’s people who do it tough with the UK being in the EU has it enriched their lives, you don’t need to be Einstein to figure out their answer because they already feel the system has let them down.

As to the OQ that’s a matter of personal situation, in my line of work is not reliant on cross border trade, but that’s not say cross border trade dosnt influence my way of life, the EU is not a one fit for all and while the decision’s made effect countries in different ways some may have positive results some have negative results.

Look I’m not suggesting that once the UK leaves and we have 100% independent policy making ability every policy or action will be the right one far from it, what I don’t want is some other jurisdiction making policy for the UK.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9777
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:33 am

A101 wrote:
Look I’m not suggesting that once the UK leaves and we have 100% independent policy making ability every policy or action will be the right one far from it, what I don’t want is some other jurisdiction making policy for the UK.


Which of the policies would you like to be abandoned once the UK has left?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1166
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:03 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Look I’m not suggesting that once the UK leaves and we have 100% independent policy making ability every policy or action will be the right one far from it, what I don’t want is some other jurisdiction making policy for the UK.


Which of the policies would you like to be abandoned once the UK has left?


The level of EU integration overall of legistive power to the whims of the EU involvement the in areas of law and order taxation European army etc etc


But you already know most of what those that wish to leave want,
 
LJ
Posts: 4807
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:27 am

A101 wrote:
Look I’m not suggesting that once the UK leaves and we have 100% independent policy making ability every policy or action will be the right one far from it, what I don’t want is some other jurisdiction making policy for the UK.


I still can't comprehend that you, and many other Brexiteers, think that if you are an independent country, you're policies will not be influenced by other jurisdictions. The fact that the UK wants to trade on WTO rules is already an example of a choice whereby a supranational body decides and influences the policies of the UK. Moreover, all the standards set in in international trade are by default reducing the ability to make decisions on your own. Yes, you decide that you want to do international trade and thus have to follow those rules, but that still doesn't mean you have full control. It's like the business where I'm in (Finance). Though I work for a European financial institution, we do have to follow the US SOX regulation as we have issued securities in the US.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9777
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:27 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Look I’m not suggesting that once the UK leaves and we have 100% independent policy making ability every policy or action will be the right one far from it, what I don’t want is some other jurisdiction making policy for the UK.


Which of the policies would you like to be abandoned once the UK has left?


The level of EU integration overall of legistive power to the whims of the EU involvement the in areas of law and order taxation European army etc etc


But you already know most of what those that wish to leave want,


No, I don't know, that's why I am asking. I know many of the misrepresentations, frames and lies used by Brexiteers, but I don't know what is actually bothering the Brexiteers so much in actual real daily life. You come across as someone with decent intelligence, so it is a simple question to answer, isn't it?

EU involvement in the laws, ok there are directives which the UK agreed to and was put into domestic law, that is correct, but which of those would you like to get rid of as soon as you leave? There must be hundreds to choose from, be specific, not generalizations.
The EU doesn't have taxations for the general public, so that doesn't count, there is no European army at present, so that doesn't count and if that is a concern to you, you must favor leaving NATO. And you must be aware that if - and that is a big if, currently the Dutch are against it for instance - there was a political will to create an European army, each and every country could veto it, so if the UK is in the EU an European army can't be forced upon them.

You are willing to put your country in near term chaos and you are uncertain how it will turn out, so there must be something major that you want to do different which is currently blocked by the EU, so what is it? We know what we have with the EU, so that is no guess work.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1166
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:13 am

@Dutchy

Its always going to be generalisations, because as whole I don't want the EU as the supreme judicial sovereign entity within the UK with the ability to influence national laws and the regulations that influence a most things in our lives, everything from road transport, construction, electrical & electronics mail welfare, tourism and simple things as children's toys , and before you say it yes there are goods things about the EU.

The EEC/EU has moved away from its trade block origins and integrating its self into EU superstate where in the future we might see Jean-Claude Juncker’s proposed European labour authority, sooner or later Europe nations are going to lose its national identity, and I want no part in that...……..if that makes me an extremist so be it
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9777
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:39 am

A101 wrote:
@Dutchy

Its always going to be generalisations, because as whole I don't want the EU as the supreme judicial sovereign entity within the UK with the ability to influence national laws and the regulations that influence a most things in our lives, everything from road transport, construction, electrical & electronics mail welfare, tourism and simple things as children's toys , and before you say it yes there are goods things about the EU.

The EEC/EU has moved away from its trade block origins and integrating its self into EU superstate where in the future we might see Jean-Claude Juncker’s proposed European labour authority, sooner or later Europe nations are going to lose its national identity, and I want no part in that...……..if that makes me an extremist so be it


Ok, now we are getting somewhere, it is not about regulations but it is about losing national identity. Why are you afraid of that? Scotland has been part of the UK for the good of a couple of centuries and yet Scotland is distinctively different from England, wouldn't you agree? So what would you think would change your life so much, if the UK were to stay in the EU?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9777
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:41 pm

Image
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9777
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:41 pm

BTW 6,008,041 signatures and counting for the petition.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8603
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:17 pm

A101 wrote:
@Dutchy

Its always going to be generalisations, because as whole I don't want the EU as the supreme judicial sovereign entity within the UK with the ability to influence national laws and the regulations that influence a most things in our lives, everything from road transport, construction, electrical & electronics mail welfare, tourism and simple things as children's toys , and before you say it yes there are goods things about the EU.

The EEC/EU has moved away from its trade block origins and integrating its self into EU superstate where in the future we might see Jean-Claude Juncker’s proposed European labour authority, sooner or later Europe nations are going to lose its national identity, and I want no part in that...……..if that makes me an extremist so be it


That is a result of a common market, as it needs common standards. You can not have a common market without common standards. This is the same for any trade agreement in the world, the big difference is that those standards are not agreed on in some back chamber government talks, but in an open process which gives influence to every member of the EU and it still does leave enough space for national identity.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8682
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:11 pm

A101 wrote:
But you already know most of what those that wish to leave want,


Yup! Pie in the Sky.
Really waiting for their Cold Turkey moment coming up on the horizon.
Murphy is an optimist
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BTW 6,008,041 signatures and counting for the petition.


And the government have already said it would be revoked.

People are wasting their time.

I wonder how many signatures are repeat signatures or those not entitled to vote LOL.

Pathetic really isn’t it.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
Pot, kettle.....
I couldn't give a flying fox about you thinking differently, I have defended your rights to do so.

You may wish to look up the definition of ignorant, you appear to be misinformed on that one too.


Am I?

Course I am pal.


Could you describe how your life is going to better after a hard-Brexit?


The end of free movement and those awful EEA Regs that allow non EU nationals into my country through doubtful marriages.
My taxes going towards nations other than my own
The UK to decide their own laws.
Hopefully the end of our involvement with the ECHR with an updated, more relevant, modern replacement brought into the UK.
The end of the European Courts of Justice.
The end of pointless UK MEP’s, how much is that costing each year?
End of the Common Agricultural Policy.

That is a start.
 
olle
Posts: 1163
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:44 pm

EU 27 is right now sick and tired of UK and its government.

Good luck for the next UK government starting new relationship after its hard brexit in 2 weeks from now.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:50 pm

olle wrote:
EU 27 is right now sick and tired of UK and its government.

Good luck for the next UK government starting new relationship after its hard brexit in 2 weeks from now.


I’d sooner stay in the EU than have Corbyn.

Hopefully no GE for a while.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9777
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:26 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
The end of free movement and those awful EEA Regs that allow non EU nationals into my country through doubtful marriages.

You get more people from outside the EU than from within. So that is no solution if that is a problem.

noviorbis77 wrote:
My taxes going towards nations other than my own

1,2% of your GDP. And what are you getting in return? You already lost more than that because of the pending Brexit. We already established that economic arguments don't work.

noviorbis77 wrote:
The UK to decide their own laws.

Which laws would you like to get rid of? Be specific please.

noviorbis77 wrote:
Hopefully the end of our involvement with the ECHR with an updated, more relevant, modern replacement brought into the UK.

European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with the EU, so you will be into that, together with 46 other member states of the Council of Europe. But you would also like to leave that? So what human rights rules would you like to get rid of?

noviorbis77 wrote:
The end of the European Courts of Justice.

Which ruling does hurt you personally?

noviorbis77 wrote:
The end of pointless UK MEP’s, how much is that costing each year?

1,2% of your GDP is the max you contribute. Of that 1,2% only 6% is spent at the bureaucracy, much less than in Brittian.

noviorbis77 wrote:
End of the Common Agricultural Policy.

1,2% of your GDP is the max you contribute. Why would the CAP be a specific problem to you?


But most important, how will leaving the EU enhance your life and at what expense.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
The end of free movement and those awful EEA Regs that allow non EU nationals into my country through doubtful marriages.

You get more people from outside the EU than from within. So that is no solution if that is a problem.

noviorbis77 wrote:
My taxes going towards nations other than my own

1,2% of your GDP. And what are you getting in return? You already lost more than that because of the pending Brexit. We already established that economic arguments don't work.

noviorbis77 wrote:
The UK to decide their own laws.

Which laws would you like to get rid of? Be specific please.

noviorbis77 wrote:
Hopefully the end of our involvement with the ECHR with an updated, more relevant, modern replacement brought into the UK.

European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with the EU, so you will be into that, together with 46 other member states of the Council of Europe. But you would also like to leave that? So what human rights rules would you like to get rid of?

noviorbis77 wrote:
The end of the European Courts of Justice.

Which ruling does hurt you personally?

noviorbis77 wrote:
The end of pointless UK MEP’s, how much is that costing each year?

1,2% of your GDP is the max you contribute. Of that 1,2% only 6% is spent at the bureaucracy, much less than in Brittian.

noviorbis77 wrote:
End of the Common Agricultural Policy.

1,2% of your GDP is the max you contribute. Why would the CAP be a specific problem to you?


But most important, how will leaving the EU enhance your life and at what expense.


Alas I am unwilling to go into specifics of the European of Justice as my employer would be mighty peeved.

But we’ve ended EU migration, we can look to ensure we only get the migrants we need as it will all be rule based applications.

EU’s laws I dislike. The ban on menthol cigarettes, the working time directive, the not changing the clocks from 2021, speed limiters on all cars built in the EU, the 15% VAT laws on energy bills and other high uses of VATs, child benefits for EU migrants. This is a start.

Strange that you say we are losing lots of money owing to Brexit. Our economy is in a better position that it has been for years. Unemployment is low. Maybe staying in the EU is not good for recessions (lets ask Germany LOL).
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9777
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:14 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
The end of free movement and those awful EEA Regs that allow non EU nationals into my country through doubtful marriages.

You get more people from outside the EU than from within. So that is no solution if that is a problem.

noviorbis77 wrote:
My taxes going towards nations other than my own

1,2% of your GDP. And what are you getting in return? You already lost more than that because of the pending Brexit. We already established that economic arguments don't work.

noviorbis77 wrote:
The UK to decide their own laws.

Which laws would you like to get rid of? Be specific please.

noviorbis77 wrote:
Hopefully the end of our involvement with the ECHR with an updated, more relevant, modern replacement brought into the UK.

European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with the EU, so you will be into that, together with 46 other member states of the Council of Europe. But you would also like to leave that? So what human rights rules would you like to get rid of?

noviorbis77 wrote:
The end of the European Courts of Justice.

Which ruling does hurt you personally?

noviorbis77 wrote:
The end of pointless UK MEP’s, how much is that costing each year?

1,2% of your GDP is the max you contribute. Of that 1,2% only 6% is spent at the bureaucracy, much less than in Brittian.

noviorbis77 wrote:
End of the Common Agricultural Policy.

1,2% of your GDP is the max you contribute. Why would the CAP be a specific problem to you?


But most important, how will leaving the EU enhance your life and at what expense.


Alas I am unwilling to go into specifics of the European of Justice as my employer would be mighty peeved.

But we’ve ended EU migration, we can look to ensure we only get the migrants we need as it will all be rule based applications.

EU’s laws I dislike. The ban on menthol cigarettes, the working time directive, the not changing the clocks from 2021, speed limiters on all cars built in the EU, the 15% VAT laws on energy bills and other high uses of VATs, child benefits for EU migrants. This is a start.

Strange that you say we are losing lots of money owing to Brexit. Our economy is in a better position that it has been for years. Unemployment is low. Maybe staying in the EU is not good for recessions (lets ask Germany LOL).


For the 15% VAT on energy: not true: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu ... m-36430504

Menthol cigarettes will indeed be banned from 2020. So? They are aimed at yongsters. Within the same directive, the UK is allowed the UK to go further and introduce its own regulations requiring all tobacco packaging to be uniformly olive green with large images designed to act as health warnings. So it seems the UK is strickter than the EU in this case, so in that respect I don't think getting out of the EU will help you to keep Menthol cigarettes. So also not a really good case. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 37346.html

Ok, basically it also bears down to immigrants again and perhaps it might also be that you think the EU is too progressive for your taste, I mean advocating to get rid of protecting workers and protecting the general public (even though the ECHR isn't part of the EU in the first place) with the European Convention on Human Rights is quite harsh. Don't think I have ever heard anyone advocating this before.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:22 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
You get more people from outside the EU than from within. So that is no solution if that is a problem.


1,2% of your GDP. And what are you getting in return? You already lost more than that because of the pending Brexit. We already established that economic arguments don't work.


Which laws would you like to get rid of? Be specific please.


European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with the EU, so you will be into that, together with 46 other member states of the Council of Europe. But you would also like to leave that? So what human rights rules would you like to get rid of?


Which ruling does hurt you personally?


1,2% of your GDP is the max you contribute. Of that 1,2% only 6% is spent at the bureaucracy, much less than in Brittian.


1,2% of your GDP is the max you contribute. Why would the CAP be a specific problem to you?


But most important, how will leaving the EU enhance your life and at what expense.


Alas I am unwilling to go into specifics of the European of Justice as my employer would be mighty peeved.

But we’ve ended EU migration, we can look to ensure we only get the migrants we need as it will all be rule based applications.

EU’s laws I dislike. The ban on menthol cigarettes, the working time directive, the not changing the clocks from 2021, speed limiters on all cars built in the EU, the 15% VAT laws on energy bills and other high uses of VATs, child benefits for EU migrants. This is a start.

Strange that you say we are losing lots of money owing to Brexit. Our economy is in a better position that it has been for years. Unemployment is low. Maybe staying in the EU is not good for recessions (lets ask Germany LOL).


For the 15% VAT on energy: not true: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu ... m-36430504

Menthol cigarettes will indeed be banned from 2020. So? They are aimed at yongsters. Within the same directive, the UK is allowed the UK to go further and introduce its own regulations requiring all tobacco packaging to be uniformly olive green with large images designed to act as health warnings. So it seems the UK is strickter than the EU in this case, so in that respect I don't think getting out of the EU will help you to keep Menthol cigarettes. So also not a really good case. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 37346.html

Ok, basically it also bears down to immigrants again and perhaps it might also be that you think the EU is too progressive for your taste, I mean advocating to get rid of protecting workers and protecting the general public (even though the ECHR isn't part of the EU in the first place) with the European Convention on Human Rights is quite harsh. Don't think I have ever heard anyone advocating this before.


The menthol tobacco issue would never have come up had the EU not brought it up. Unfortunately that ship has sailed, but how long until the EU bring another crap law that the UK would just adopt? Not worth taking the chance is it really.

You are correct about the ECHR. It long predates the EU, EEA etc, but it is not fit for purpose.

Article 8 particularly is a real problem with deporting people, the UK certainly does not need or want.

Nice of the ECJ making us pay out to child rapists

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/so ... -1-5565901
 
JJJ
Posts: 3298
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:41 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

Nice of the ECJ making us pay out to child rapists

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/so ... -1-5565901


The UK could have well put him on a military plane and send him back immediately if they wanted to avoid litigation.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:51 pm

JJJ wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Nice of the ECJ making us pay out to child rapists

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/so ... -1-5565901


The UK could have well put him on a military plane and send him back immediately if they wanted to avoid litigation.


The ECHR would have made that unlawful.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9777
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:52 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
The menthol tobacco issue would never have come up had the EU not brought it up. Unfortunately that ship has sailed, but how long until the EU bring another crap law that the UK would just adopt? Not worth taking the chance is it really.


So a menthol tobacco issue is the clinging argument for you? Or is it immigration with which many things are decided in the UK, immigration from outside the EU - more as I have shown - and the UK opened up to the eastern European workers as soon as it was possible, not because it had too. Besides that, the immigrants are net contributors to the UK economy as a whole and especially true to social benefits.

noviorbis77 wrote:
You are correct about the ECHR. It long predates the EU, EEA etc, but it is not fit for purpose.

Article 8 particularly is a real problem with deporting people, the UK certainly does not need or want.

Nice of the ECJ making us pay out to child rapists

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/so ... -1-5565901


From the article:

The European Court of Human Rights found the detention was unlawful under UK law because the regular reviews required were not carried out.


Oh, you are upset because the ECHR - not the ECJ - made you uphold your own law? Again not a good argument for leaving the EU, now is it?

So shall we put the ECHR down for this, we are talking about Brexit, not the ECHR.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:04 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
The menthol tobacco issue would never have come up had the EU not brought it up. Unfortunately that ship has sailed, but how long until the EU bring another crap law that the UK would just adopt? Not worth taking the chance is it really.


So a menthol tobacco issue is the clinging argument for you? Or is it immigration with which many things are decided in the UK, immigration from outside the EU - more as I have shown - and the UK opened up to the eastern European workers as soon as it was possible, not because it had too. Besides that, the immigrants are net contributors to the UK economy as a whole and especially true to social benefits.

noviorbis77 wrote:
You are correct about the ECHR. It long predates the EU, EEA etc, but it is not fit for purpose.

Article 8 particularly is a real problem with deporting people, the UK certainly does not need or want.

Nice of the ECJ making us pay out to child rapists

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/so ... -1-5565901


From the article:

The European Court of Human Rights found the detention was unlawful under UK law because the regular reviews required were not carried out.


Oh, you are upset because the ECHR - not the ECJ - made you uphold your own law? Again not a good argument for leaving the EU, now is it?

So shall we put the ECHR down for this, we are talking about Brexit, not the ECHR.


You are right. Lets leave the ECHR alone. That is another debate.

No I do not support Brexit on the basis of Menthol Cigarettes. It just sums up the problem with EU law making. Governments will just go with the flow and implement EU law with no consultation with voters, nothing ever mentioned on manifestos, no public voice whatsoever.

I cannot think of a single law in my lifetime that has an adverse affect on individual freedoms that was not first brought in my the EU.

Everything else brought in on a national level (ie UK Law brought in by UK governments) has been included on a manifesto.

Happy to be proved wrong if you can find an example.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9777
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:38 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
No I do not support Brexit on the basis of Menthol Cigarettes. It just sums up the problem with EU law making. Governments will just go with the flow and implement EU law with no consultation with voters, nothing ever mentioned on manifestos, no public voice whatsoever.

I cannot think of a single law in my lifetime that has an adverse affect on individual freedoms that was not first brought in my the EU.

Everything else brought in on a national level (ie UK Law brought in by UK governments) has been included on a manifesto.

Happy to be proved wrong if you can find an example.


On what basis do you support Brexit other than immigrants and too much protection from the government for the ordinary citizen and too much protection for workers?

Furthermore can't believe that everything that is decided in the UK, other than EU directives which the UK has a say in it, in a government term, is written down in a manifesto beforehand. There must be many things that come up during a period and some things must be just dom to do. I am not going tough all the manifestos, but a quick google search: https://fullfact.org/economy/did-conser ... insurance/

So you have proven wrong.......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:52 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
No I do not support Brexit on the basis of Menthol Cigarettes. It just sums up the problem with EU law making. Governments will just go with the flow and implement EU law with no consultation with voters, nothing ever mentioned on manifestos, no public voice whatsoever.

I cannot think of a single law in my lifetime that has an adverse affect on individual freedoms that was not first brought in my the EU.

Everything else brought in on a national level (ie UK Law brought in by UK governments) has been included on a manifesto.

Happy to be proved wrong if you can find an example.


On what basis do you support Brexit other than immigrants and too much protection from the government for the ordinary citizen and too much protection for workers?

Furthermore can't believe that everything that is decided in the UK, other than EU directives which the UK has a say in it, in a government term, is written down in a manifesto beforehand. There must be many things that come up during a period and some things must be just dom to do. I am not going tough all the manifestos, but a quick google search: https://fullfact.org/economy/did-conser ... insurance/

So you have proven wrong.......


The rise in NI. Is that all you’ve got?

How does that impact individual freedoms?

I’ve explained in detail why I support Brexit. You maybe brainwashed by the wonders of the EU, but many of us see beyond that claptrap.
 
A101
Posts: 1166
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:23 pm

The EU has moved along into a different format than was first expressed to the population, for intents it was a trade block, now it moving towards a superstate not unlike the vision from past time the Roman age Napoleon and the great anti-Christ hitler,

Why the hell does the EU Future need a Euro social security number, why does the EU need to incorporate corporate tax harmonisation, why do nations have a foreign aid budgets when member contributions go towards an EU foreign aid budget which is also set to increase by near 30%

Why does the EU want “true political union" that would transform the EU into superstate relegating national governments and parliaments to a minor political role equivalent to that played by local councils
 
Klaus
Posts: 21253
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:34 pm

A101 wrote:
The EU has moved along into a different format than was first expressed to the population, for intents it was a trade block, now it moving towards a superstate not unlike the vision from past time the Roman age Napoleon and the great anti-Christ hitler,

I have proved to you time and time and time again that this is nothing but a lie, by simply showing you the defining and constituting document of the European Community the UK had joined back then, the Treaty of Rome, signed already in 1957:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Treaty_e ... _Community

Treaty establishing the European Economic Community
HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF THE BELGIANS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FRENCH REPUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT OF THE ITALIAN REPUBLIC, HER ROYAL HIGHNESS THE GRAND DUCHESS OF LUXEMBOURG, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE NETHERLANDS,
DETERMINED to establish the foundations of an ever closer union among the European peoples,
DECIDED to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action in eliminating the barriers which divide Europe,
DIRECTING their efforts to the essential purpose of constantly improving the living and working conditions of their peoples,
RECOGNISING that the removal of existing obstacles calls for concerted action in order to guarantee a steady expansion, a balanced trade and fair competition,
ANXIOUS to strengthen the unity of their economies and to ensure their harmonious development by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and by mitigating the backwardness of the less favoured,
DESIROUS of contributing by means of a common commercial policy to the progressive abolition of restrictions on international trade,
INTENDING to confirm the solidarity which binds Europe and overseas countries, and desiring to ensure the development of their prosperity, in accordance with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations,
RESOLVED to strengthen the safeguards of peace and liberty by establishing this combination of resources, and calling upon the other peoples of Europe who share their ideal to join in their efforts,
HAVE DECIDED to create a European Economic Community and to this end have designated as their plenipotentiaries:
[...]

The central and primary concept was the ever closer union, that is exactly what the UK has joined very clearly knowing that and that has never changed.

So no, that claim you've parroted above is complete and utter bunk and it has zero credibility.

You have been told all this before and yet you keep coming with that same proven lie.

And that is probably the clearest indication of what's really at the heart and soul of Brexit. It has nothing at all to do with any factual issues, it's just about hatred and propaganda.
 
Kilopond
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:08 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:13 pm

A101 wrote:
[...]Napoleon and the great anti-Christ hitler,[...]


Napoleon Bonaparte had been excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church. As well as Juan Perón and Fidel Castro. But not so Adolf Hitler.

Close to 100% of humans today have absolutely no clue of history but they strongly and totally uncritically believe in historiography.

It's a red/blue pill matter that can be very painful if one tries to sort out all the contradictrions.
 
A101
Posts: 1166
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:36 pm

@Kluas

We are talking two different things here, the deception that was sold to the UK people and what was signed are two different things, Edward Heath,had signed the Treaty of Rome in 73 and, at that point, the UK joined the EEC. That was done on the basis of a commitment that we would retain our national sovereignty 100%

In June of 71, a White Paper had been sent to every home in the UK, promising that, “there is no question of Britain losing essential sovereignty”. In a 1973 tv broadcast he also said “There are some in this country who fear that, in going into Europe, we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.”

The Judge Bruce Morgan In 2001. He said that, when the UK joined the Common Market in the 1970s, parliament and the British people “quite voluntarily surrendered the once seemingly immortal concept of the sovereignty of parliament and legislative freedom”. This was contrary to the assurances to the UK public at the time.

The 1975 referendum for which I remember my parents talking about was actually based on assurances which were dishonest from the beginning, if the electorate had access to information that was freely available by modern technology I doubt it very much we would have joined if the electorate had the final say in the first place


The UK from the beginning was sold a pup and now given a second opportunity to have a say in wether we remain or leave, people have access to more readily avalible information that was otherwise avalible to the in 75 and the majority chose leave
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8603
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:09 am

The world did not stop in 1975. Nothing is as it was in 1975 today. Once the UK has left (hopefully today the decision will be made) it will learn how other trading blocks will use their sovereignty in their own interest.

And in general if you willingly hand over a part of your sovereignty to a multinational organisation you are part of, you do not give up sovereignty. But you will probably soon learn what giving up sovereignty means, once the US, China and others have offered the UK to carbon copy their rules in exchange for access to their markets.

So, I hope that today the hard Brexit will be decided and the UK is freed of the shackles of the EU and ready to return to the glorious days of the past. When the world was totally different.
 
jcancel
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:33 am

in some ways it makes me wish the internet existed back then, as I would know exactly what the public discourse waa

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], cledaybuck and 49 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos