ltbewr
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:11 pm

Who would gain the most in Brexit within the remaining EU ? Most likely France and I suspect they will take full advantage of it.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:08 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Who would gain the most in Brexit within the remaining EU ? Most likely France and I suspect they will take full advantage of it.


Nobody is gaining from Brexit. The idea is ludicrous. Eurostar, most of the cross channel commerce and goods to and from the UK pass through France. Do you really think losing all that business is a gain?
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:23 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Wow. A German telling us we must stick to ze rules.

It is like going back 80 odd years.

It's not a demand. It's a description.

You can of course try to choose US rules instead, or chinese ones, but you'll find both of these much less palatable than EU rules in the end.

In the end it is these big three who are actually setting rules and standards, and smaller fish such as a lonely UK (or whatever will be left of it) is by its sheer size and weight automatically just a rule taker.

Rule makers need a lot more size and weight and the EU27 (far beyond your weird fixation on just Germany, which has gotten you absolutely nowhere in the Brexit process either) is in many respects the top rule maker in trade and standards respects, and by sheer geographic proximity (which mostly dictates a large chunk of your trade) and by historical and cultural similarity neither the US nor China are realistic options to attach to.

So it's simply a fact of life that Brexit Britain will still continue to follow most of the EU's rules in the future, you have just thrown away all your influence on those rules without any need or even any plausible reason.

Your utterly mendacious and at the same time ludicrously incompetent Leave politicians had been telling you tall tales about all the leverage you'd be having and all that fantastic influence, but in reality just nobody cares and nobody is impressed with UK politicians. And pity for how spectacularly you're now falling flat on your face after all your grandiose and haughty declamations of your imagined power and superiority doesn't buy you much in international relations, especially not with former colonies or other countries with long memories of abuse and humiliation at the hands of the British Empire – such as China, as an example. You may have forgotton about the Opium Wars, for instance, but China most certainly hasn't.
Last edited by Klaus on Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:32 pm

VSMUT wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Who would gain the most in Brexit within the remaining EU ? Most likely France and I suspect they will take full advantage of it.


Nobody is gaining from Brexit. The idea is ludicrous. Eurostar, most of the cross channel commerce and goods to and from the UK pass through France. Do you really think losing all that business is a gain?

Russia can greatly profit from Brexit by weakening both the EU and the UK. If a disintegrating UK loses its seat in the UN Security Council that will be a huge win for Russia and for China. And just England and Wales will find it harder and harder to uphold that seat against undoubtedly rising challenges, but even if the UK should hold together that would not be a walk in the park.

China is also increasingly aggressively throwing its weight around and any disunity in Europe is China's gain as well.

The USA under Trump also wants european unity destroyed to throw european countries back to being divided and conquered each on their own, and the UK alone will be much easier prey for Trump than the European Union which can actually push back, and does so. It's ironic that Trump now uses the exact same tactic to the detriment of the UK which the UK had long been playing against continental Europe for centuries.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:53 pm

Klaus wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Who would gain the most in Brexit within the remaining EU ? Most likely France and I suspect they will take full advantage of it.


Nobody is gaining from Brexit. The idea is ludicrous. Eurostar, most of the cross channel commerce and goods to and from the UK pass through France. Do you really think losing all that business is a gain?

Russia can greatly profit from Brexit by weakening both the EU and the UK. If a disintegrating UK loses its seat in the UN Security Council that will be a huge win for Russia and for China. And just England and Wales will find it harder and harder to uphold that seat against undoubtedly rising challenges, but even if the UK should hold together that would not be a walk in the park.

China is also increasingly aggressively throwing its weight around and any disunity in Europe is China's gain as well.

The USA under Trump also wants european unity destroyed to throw european countries back to being divided and conquered each on their own, and the UK alone will be much easier prey for Trump than the European Union which can actually push back, and does so. It's ironic that Trump now uses the exact same tactic to the detriment of the UK which the UK had long been playing against continental Europe for centuries.


Sorry, completely forgot about external players. All too true.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:46 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

two things:
> we established that your real reason for Brexit is immigration, nothing else.


The only thing you established is you think that.


nope, we went over this, all economic arguments fail, you couldn't name a real EU rule you want to abolish and if all fails, you have a way out. So that leaves immigrations. It will harm the UK, but ok and more immigrants from elsewhere, but ok. At least your fallow resident Brexiteer want to abbolish the ECHR, don't know why he wants less protection, but ok, at least he is honest about it.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
> Putin likes Brexit because it will weakening the EU and especially the UK. Putin things in win-loose.



Weakening the EU thought you didn’t need us because you only export a small amount to the UK overall, and here I thought you cared about the UK.

So you really want overall control of the UK armed forces as part of a Federal European Defence Force. Why don’t you disband NATO while you at it, gives AUSCANNZUKUS something to think about


You've got to learn to read carefully. I have never said those things. The whole they need us more than we need them is a false narratieve, proven over and over again. At the same time, we are stronger together at every level. And yes I care about the UK.

Whom advocated to disband NATO?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Whom advocated to disband NATO?

Donald Trump, as always following Vladimir Putin's talking points and interests.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:32 pm

Klaus wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Whom advocated to disband NATO?

Donald Trump, as always following Vladimir Putin's talking points and interests.


yes, so it is even more important to have a strong and united Europe. so please stay in a constructive manner.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:32 pm

Klaus wrote:
Russia can greatly profit from Brexit by weakening both the EU and the UK. If a disintegrating UK loses its seat in the UN Security Council that will be a huge win for Russia and for China. And just England and Wales will find it harder and harder to uphold that seat against undoubtedly rising challenges, but even if the UK should hold together that would not be a walk in the park.


It was Germany who pushed for the French & UK seats in the UN security council be made into EU seats which rightly both pushed back on, if the UK collapse by losing either NI/SCT or both than the remaining parts would hold the permanent seats at the UN Security council as we saw with the dissolution of the USSR

Klaus wrote:
China is also increasingly aggressively throwing its weight around and any disunity in Europe is China's gain as well.


China will always do what's in its best interest, China is on the rise now but has a lot of internal worries as well as an ageing population due the one child policy that was recently ended, consumer spending and the ability to keep the next generation working is the thorn in the side China, sooner or later as Chinese middle class living standards rise so will the ability for China to compete in wage restraint, remember the rise of china economically is a double edged sword, western multi nationals only look at the bottom line and will move on to the next cheap manufacturing area. we have all ready seen the Chinese economy contract



Klaus wrote:
The USA under Trump also wants european unity destroyed to throw european countries back to being divided and conquered each on their own, and the UK alone will be much easier prey for Trump than the European Union which can actually push back, and does so. It's ironic that Trump now uses the exact same tactic to the detriment of the UK which the UK had long been playing against continental Europe for centuries.



Trump wants to revitalise the heartland the only way he knows how in business philosophy, its his capitalistic nature which actually goes against his egotistic business principles which the heartland can't see as either the goods price has to go up inline with the extra cost of wages or the profit has to go down of the company, a profitable company is the only things that secure long term competitiveness.

Trump doesn't want to destroy Europe, but he sees it as a competitor to business that the US subsides to a degree via US security guarantees, He is using that issue as a way to level the playing field
 
KLDC10
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:41 pm

Klaus wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Whom advocated to disband NATO?

Donald Trump, as always following Vladimir Putin's talking points and interests.


Except that the whole Russian Collusion/Puppet thing has been well and truly dispelled. Give it up.
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
737/738/739/744/748/752/763/772/789
A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/A346/A359
Q400/E170/E175/E190/CS300
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:34 pm

Dutchy wrote:

nope, we went over this, all economic arguments fail, you couldn't name a real EU rule you want to abolish and if all fails, you have a way out. So that leaves immigrations. It will harm the UK, but ok and more immigrants from elsewhere, but ok. At least your fallow resident Brexiteer want to abbolish the ECHR, don't know why he wants less protection, but ok, at least he is honest about it.


Your mistaking "we went over this" following your game in specific laws that I want to change somehow falls into an argument solely about immigration, when you know if you look thru these pages its about EU influence on domestic regulatory decision making and with the ECJ claiming authority to override British laws and courts.



Dutchy wrote:

You've got to learn to read carefully. I have never said those things. The whole they need us more than we need them is a false narratieve, proven over and over again. At the same time, we are stronger together at every level. And yes I care about the UK.


Oh I read just fine, I believe it is you who needs to go back and read what you wrote and understand the meaning behind your superficial lines of text within this thread.

Dutchy wrote:
Whom advocated to disband NATO?


I believe it was brought up sometime ago in regards to sovereignty of UK defence force and the French equivalent terms of use, but for this discussion I believe trade and defence treaty obligations are separate issues, you are also forgetting as part of the withdrawal agreement European Defence Agency, the European Defence Fund, the European Defence Industrial Development Programme and PESCO.

By integrating into a single Federated European Defence Force and a total political union undermines the very fabric of NATO it is the sovereign nations own undeniable rights which make NATO strong. By increasing the likely hood of an EUDF it will make us less safe, but is will also make us less democratic, and could itself bring on the collapse of NATO.

Putin is laughing at the prospect of an EU army, because he knows that it will weaken his biggest adversary in NATO the United States of America
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:56 pm

I missed this, will be interesting to see the out come who has jurisdiction UK or ECJ?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... ard-aikens
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:34 pm

A101 wrote:
I missed this, will be interesting to see the out come who has jurisdiction UK or ECJ?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... ard-aikens


The Brexiteers are getting more than a little desperate. :rotfl:
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:19 am

scbriml wrote:

The Brexiteers are getting more than a little desperate. :rotfl:


I would not say that, in the shambles of TM exit negotiations, and what the actual legislation say's its best be prudent that all the i are dotted and the t crossed.

then you are suggesting remainers were desperate when they launched the High Court challenge to the referendum :rotfl:
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:27 am

A101 wrote:
then you are suggesting remainers were desperate when they launched the High Court challenge to the referendum


A case based on the criminal activities of the Leave campaign? Doesn't sound desperate to me, but I'm sure you see it that way.

Have you rescheduled your Brexit party for 12th?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:02 am

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
then you are suggesting remainers were desperate when they launched the High Court challenge to the referendum


A case based on the criminal activities of the Leave campaign? Doesn't sound desperate to me, but I'm sure you see it that way.

Have you rescheduled your Brexit party for 12th?



Criminal activity :rotfl:



Did anyone get a criminal record out of it or the High court annul the result, nope


The case going before the high court is based on parliamentary procedure
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:09 am

A101 wrote:
Criminal activity :rotfl:


So how would you describe being fined for breaking the law? :sarcastic:

I guess anything's justified for those that don't care about the consequences of what they want.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:23 am

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
Criminal activity :rotfl:


So how would you describe being fined for breaking the law? :sarcastic:

I guess anything's justified for those that don't care about the consequences of what they want.


I’m sure both of us have been fined for breaking the law, does that make us criminals
 
bennett123
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:29 am

If you were fined for committing a crime, then yes.
 
KLDC10
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:59 am

Here's a good article explaining the problems with the Cooper-Letwin Bill. The fact that the Bill could, in its current form, have unintended consequences is something they might have picked up on had they bothered to scrutinise it properly and not just rammed it through the Commons in four hours.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... course-no/
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
737/738/739/744/748/752/763/772/789
A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/A346/A359
Q400/E170/E175/E190/CS300
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:11 pm

A101 wrote:
I’m sure both of us have been fined for breaking the law, does that make us criminals


Speak for yourself, old chap. :wave:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:46 pm

bennett123 wrote:
If you were fined for committing a crime, then yes.


Yes I have been fined for breaking the law, but under statutory regulations I’m not a criminal either.

In the case of Darren Grimes it was statutory paperwork incorrectly filled out, with the donations from vote leave incorrectly approved with the fine imposed by the Electoral Commission not thru the judicial system, as far as I’m aware no one has received a gaol sentence or fine which would be marked as a white collar criminal record,
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:48 pm

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
I’m sure both of us have been fined for breaking the law, does that make us criminals


Speak for yourself, old chap. :wave:



Not even a speeding fine or parking fine, which is defined as breaking the law but your not a criminal either. That’s what I’m referring to.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:52 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Here's a good article explaining the problems with the Cooper-Letwin Bill. The fact that the Bill could, in its current form, have unintended consequences is something they might have picked up on had they bothered to scrutinise it properly and not just rammed it through the Commons in four hours.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... course-no/



Pity I’m not a subscriber as I could not see the whole article
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:03 pm

A101 wrote:
Not even a speeding fine or parking fine,


No.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:49 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Whom advocated to disband NATO?

Donald Trump, as always following Vladimir Putin's talking points and interests.


Except that the whole Russian Collusion/Puppet thing has been well and truly dispelled. Give it up.

Yeah, according to Fox News the standards applying to the US presidency are no longer the US Constitution, but now traditional mob rules apply instead, apparently:

If you can get a hand-picked guy hired to sit on the damning investigation results and instead tell the public that you're in the clear, that definitely "proves" your "total innocence"!

And it also completely removes all memory of the horrific Helsinki meeting with Trump publicly kissing Putin's boots while dumping on his own country.

Also Trump handing highly confidential intelligence information to the russian delegation he unprecedentedly invited to the Oval Office, right after telling them that he quashed the investigation into his russian connection by firing the FBI chief.

And, of course, it also removes any knowledge of Trump compromising himself during the campaign by pursuing Trump Tower Moscow complete with a bribe to Putin personally while publicly lying about it.

And it also nullifies the already proven russian intervention in the 2016 elections to push Trump into the US presidency.

If the only source you trust is Fox News and its like-minded propaganda sources, that is.
Then Trump is "totally exonerated", and all the clear and present evidence can somehow be ignored.

For the rest of us outside of that bubble, however, things are looking very differently, where evidence actually matters.

And with Brexit it's uncomfortably similar, including quite a few of the same actors pushing propaganda lies to have people voting against their own country's interests.
Last edited by Klaus on Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:05 pm

A101 wrote:
By integrating into a single Federated European Defence Force and a total political union undermines the very fabric of NATO it is the sovereign nations own undeniable rights which make NATO strong. By increasing the likely hood of an EUDF it will make us less safe, but is will also make us less democratic, and could itself bring on the collapse of NATO.

Putin is laughing at the prospect of an EU army, because he knows that it will weaken his biggest adversary in NATO the United States of America

Putin is too busy laughing about Brexit perfectly playing into his own hands right now! :rotfl:

But from a purely scientific point of view it is almost fascinating to see the extreme distortions and contortions you're forced into to somehow believe the exact opposite of the obvious reality, trying to somehow turn a fully NATO-integrated initiative to reduce fragmentation and wasting of resources into a "weakening of NATO".

I guess once you're that deep into Brexit you don't even know what's actually up or down any more, and when you're already shafting your own country in perfect alignment with its objective adversaries you might just as well completely join their propaganda operation.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:10 pm

Klaus wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Donald Trump, as always following Vladimir Putin's talking points and interests.


Except that the whole Russian Collusion/Puppet thing has been well and truly dispelled. Give it up.

Yeah, according to Fox News the standards applying to the US presidency are no longer the US Constitution, but now traditional mob rules apply instead, apparently:

If you can get a hand-picked guy hired to sit on the damning investigation results and instead tell the public that you're in the clear, that definitely "proves" your "total innocence"!

And it also completely removes all memory of the horrific Helsinki meeting with Trump publicly kissing Putin's boots while dumping on his own country.

Also Trump handing highly confidential intelligence information to the russian delegation he unprecedentedly invited to the Oval Office, right after telling them that he quashed the investigation into his russian connection by firing the FBI chief.

And, of course, it also removes any knowledge of Trump compromising himself during the campaign by pursuing Trump Tower Moscow complete with a bribe to Putin personally while publicly lying about it.

And it also nullifies the already proven russian intervention in the 2016 elections to push Trump into the US presidency.

If the only source you trust is Fox News and its like-minded propaganda sources, that is.
Then Trump is "totally exonerated", and all the clear and present evidence can somehow be ignored.

For the rest of us outside of that bubble, however, things are looking very differently, where evidence actually matters.

And with Brexit it's uncomfortably similar, including quite a few of the same actors pushing propaganda lies to have people voting against their own country's interests.


I'm no trump supporter by any means, if you have all these great verifiable sources the contradict the official report why don't you present them here(start a thread Kluas trump secrets) and to the US Embassy
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:11 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

nope, we went over this, all economic arguments fail, you couldn't name a real EU rule you want to abolish and if all fails, you have a way out. So that leaves immigrations. It will harm the UK, but ok and more immigrants from elsewhere, but ok. At least your fallow resident Brexiteer want to abbolish the ECHR, don't know why he wants less protection, but ok, at least he is honest about it.


Your mistaking "we went over this" following your game in specific laws that I want to change somehow falls into an argument solely about immigration, when you know if you look thru these pages its about EU influence on domestic regulatory decision making and with the ECJ claiming authority to override British laws and courts.


It is not claiming authority, it has authority because the UK government agreed to this. The UK does influence EU regulations, that is the idea: have the same regulations so you can have one domestic market with the same regulations, trade without friction.

But like I said, you speak in generalities, but fail to name five laws which are so horrendous that they need to get rid of on April 13th. You want to risk the future of the country to get out of the EU and you can't even name these.
So logic dictates that it is about immigration, that is left. If that makes you feel uncomfortable, than so be it, but everything else are platitudes and unicorns.
You failed to say what you do, but whatever it is, unless you are employed in the City - as many Brexiteers are - or dealing with red tape, your job will probably be negatively effected.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You've got to learn to read carefully. I have never said those things. The whole they need us more than we need them is a false narratieve, proven over and over again. At the same time, we are stronger together at every level. And yes I care about the UK.


Oh I read just fine, I believe it is you who needs to go back and read what you wrote and understand the meaning behind your superficial lines of text within this thread.


I take this as a complement, since it comes from you ;-)

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Whom advocated to disband NATO?


I believe it was brought up sometime ago in regards to sovereignty of UK defence force and the French equivalent terms of use, but for this discussion I believe trade and defence treaty obligations are separate issues, you are also forgetting as part of the withdrawal agreement European Defence Agency, the European Defence Fund, the European Defence Industrial Development Programme and PESCO.

By integrating into a single Federated European Defence Force and a total political union undermines the very fabric of NATO it is the sovereign nations own undeniable rights which make NATO strong. By increasing the likely hood of an EUDF it will make us less safe, but is will also make us less democratic, and could itself bring on the collapse of NATO.

Putin is laughing at the prospect of an EU army, because he knows that it will weaken his biggest adversary in NATO the United States of America


Here you truly lost me. NATO will be weakend by getting a European Defence Force. If you truly would believe this and this is important yo you, there is quite a simple sollution, stay within the EU and you will be able to veto it (like Rees-Mogg himself said the UK should do). So welcome back.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:17 pm

Klaus wrote:
Putin is too busy laughing about Brexit perfectly playing into his own hands right now! :rotfl:

But from a purely scientific point of view it is almost fascinating to see the extreme distortions and contortions you're forced into to somehow believe the exact opposite of the obvious reality, trying to somehow turn a fully NATO-integrated initiative to reduce fragmentation and wasting of resources into a "weakening of NATO".

I guess once you're that deep into Brexit you don't even know what's actually up or down any more, and when you're already shafting your own country in perfect alignment with its objective adversaries you might just as well completely join their propaganda operation.


Well once the UK hopefully is outside the EU soon, go for your political Union and your EUDF and see where NATO ends up. But ill sleep soundly in my bed that the UK leavening the EU will not be the trigger downfall of NATO.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:38 pm

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Putin is too busy laughing about Brexit perfectly playing into his own hands right now! :rotfl:

But from a purely scientific point of view it is almost fascinating to see the extreme distortions and contortions you're forced into to somehow believe the exact opposite of the obvious reality, trying to somehow turn a fully NATO-integrated initiative to reduce fragmentation and wasting of resources into a "weakening of NATO".

I guess once you're that deep into Brexit you don't even know what's actually up or down any more, and when you're already shafting your own country in perfect alignment with its objective adversaries you might just as well completely join their propaganda operation.


Well once the UK hopefully is outside the EU soon, go for your political Union and your EUDF and see where NATO ends up. But ill sleep soundly in my bed that the UK leavening the EU will not be the trigger downfall of NATO.


You are contradicting your argument. i do not believe it to be true, but you say you do.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A3801000
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:41 pm

I still don't understand why some very smart forum members get into discussions with forum members that are well known from other, russian related threads just because they use a different user name now.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:35 pm

Dutchy wrote:

It is not claiming authority, it has authority because the UK government agreed to this. The UK does influence EU regulations, that is the idea: have the same regulations so you can have one domestic market with the same regulations, trade without friction.


At the end of the day the EU is the supreme authority over the UK regulation and judicial process there's no arguing that, and 27 other nations have an input into UK regulations. If the UK does not like a set of regulations it has to form a big enough minority with other like minded nations to stop or veto such regulations.


Dutchy wrote:
I take this as a complement, since it comes from you ;-)

You can take it any way you like




Dutchy wrote:


Here you truly lost me. NATO will be weakend by getting a European Defence Force. If you truly would believe this and this is important yo you, there is quite a simple solution,

]

Before you get to the EUDF you will have to enter a more highly regulated political union, which means giving up your current independent sovereign rights to criminal law, taxation system or central bank, with all those powers being transferred to Brussels. you cannot have one institution like a EUDF without conceding the other, if that is where your future is to lay, then I'm do not want to stop you that is your decision.



Dutchy wrote:

stay within the EU and you will be able to veto it (like Rees-Mogg himself said the UK should do). So welcome back.



Is that the same constitutional veto rights that the UK used as for the EMS, as the other member states by- pass the UK veto by agreeing separately to the Social Chapter of the Maastricht treaty, for the EU where there's a will there's a work around
Last edited by A101 on Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:37 pm

A3801000 wrote:
I still don't understand why some very smart forum members get into discussions with forum members that are well known from other, russian related threads just because they use a different user name now.



Well why don't you out them?
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:22 pm

Dutchy wrote:

You are contradicting your argument. i do not believe it to be true, but you say you do.


Your free to have your own thought on the subject, doesn't mean we have to agree and doesn't necessarily mean the other is right or wrong only time will vindicate each other.


The wedge within NATO has been apparent for some time between Germany and France and the US influence on NATO, a large counter to the US influence is a EUDF and the will bring the divide to a greater being that NATO will surely crash from it.

Fives eyes enjoys greater cohesion within the US security apparatus than NATO ever has.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:05 am

Concratulations Brexitremist, you actually are willing to sacrifice democracy on the altare of the unicorn.

Brexit-weary voters long for political strongman

This is crazy. We need to be very careful with our democracies and be wary that it will not be hijact by fundamentally undemocratic people.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:08 am

A101 wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
I still don't understand why some very smart forum members get into discussions with forum members that are well known from other, russian related threads just because they use a different user name now.



Well why don't you out them?


Why have you post almost exclusively on Brexit threads, why are you here?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:56 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
I still don't understand why some very smart forum members get into discussions with forum members that are well known from other, russian related threads just because they use a different user name now.



Well why don't you out them?


Why have you post almost exclusively on Brexit threads, why are you here?


Do I have to have a reason, will I get banned if I don’t?
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:19 am

A101 wrote:
Before you get to the EUDF you will have to enter a more highly regulated political union, which means giving up your current independent sovereign rights to criminal law, taxation system or central bank, with all those powers being transferred to Brussels. you cannot have one institution like a EUDF without conceding the other, if that is where your future is to lay, then I'm do not want to stop you that is your decision.


I do not think EUDF means what you think it means.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:26 am

JJJ wrote:

I do not think EUDF means what you think it means.



Ok enlighten me..............calls for a European Army calls for European aircraft carriers, what should one think?
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:23 am

Daily Mail political editor decides Brexit was a mistake(!):

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... ink-again/
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:27 am

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

I do not think EUDF means what you think it means.



Ok enlighten me..............calls for a European Army calls for European aircraft carriers, what should one think?


Were France and Britain planning on merging their respective MoDs when they were planning to jointly build and operate carriers? Are Germany and Netherlands united since they're operating the joing German-Dutch corps? Or France and Germany, because of the Franco-German brigade?

Joint building and purchasing of big military projects make sense because there's significant economies of scale. Same for stuff like high-readiness troops, etc.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:48 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

It is not claiming authority, it has authority because the UK government agreed to this. The UK does influence EU regulations, that is the idea: have the same regulations so you can have one domestic market with the same regulations, trade without friction.


At the end of the day the EU is the supreme authority over the UK regulation and judicial process there's no arguing that, and 27 other nations have an input into UK regulations. If the UK does not like a set of regulations it has to form a big enough minority with other like minded nations to stop or veto such regulations.


Yes the other 27 nations have a say in creating EU law that then becomes UK law. BUT, and this is a very big but, we have a say in these laws, we have a veto. I can tell you from first hand experience, who do you think was the driving power behind CE marks, EMC standards? When I say driving, I mean had the majority of the expertise so when EU laws were created they were based on data, and imformation from...you guessed it the UK. So UK standards effectively became EU standards. So you see it works the other way as well, that's what a partnership is.

You state you want the UK to make it's own laws, well it does, but it also helps create EU laws. Laws that are created by the EU are generally world leaders in terms of requirements. Why should UK citizens have to expect lower qualities of produce, lower protections in order to have trade deals which already exist by being part of the EU?

What regulations do you hate so much, that you want out? Working Time directive? CE? Environmental? Hoovers (UK pushed this) ?

How about someone stopping the Conservative parties regulations like the bedroom tax, massive reduction in police / teachers / NHS funding and all the problems is has created - London centric spending, Russian money, Saudi money, massive cost of houses, lack of housing, windrush, massive income equality, homelessness? How about fixing the problems that actually affect everyone day to day, those that are directly the responsbility of Govenment? How with all of these problems can you trust them for one second to negotiate all the trade deals needed with a WTO no deal Brexit? I say this Govenment because JC is just as useless and isn't remotely close to winning an election.

The UK is broken, and massively devided. Leaving the EU will not fix this.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:03 am

Did facts really matter in the whole process? Even when re-thinking the Brexit, Brexiteers still call the EU undemocratic which is and always has been wrong. But maybe a federal system is hard for the UK to understand.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:49 am

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

I do not think EUDF means what you think it means.



Ok enlighten me..............calls for a European Army calls for European aircraft carriers, what should one think?


Were France and Britain planning on merging their respective MoDs when they were planning to jointly build and operate carriers? Are Germany and Netherlands united since they're operating the joing German-Dutch corps? Or France and Germany, because of the Franco-German brigade?

Joint building and purchasing of big military projects make sense because there's significant economies of scale. Same for stuff like high-readiness troops, etc.



Interesting, I’ll have to give it more thought
 
FlapsOne
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:18 pm

I can’t quite understand why Sky have a brexit countdown saying we are leaving in four days. We all know that that simply isn’t the case. What gives?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:31 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
I can’t quite understand why Sky have a brexit countdown saying we are leaving in four days. We all know that that simply isn’t the case. What gives?


They must have reset it from 29th March :duck:

It would be the case if the EU doesn't agree to an extension of A50 and Parliament can't agree on anything.

Parliament has made it very clear it doesn't want a no-deal Brexit. However, if the EU doesn't grant an extension to A50 on Wednesday, then Parliament will be faced with a very stark choice on Thursday or Friday - no-deal Brexit or revoke A50. They'll be the only two options left on the table.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:35 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


Well why don't you out them?


Why have you post almost exclusively on Brexit threads, why are you here?


Do I have to have a reason, will I get banned if I don’t?


Nope, but it is kind of remarkable.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:50 pm

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