SCQ83
Posts: 5327
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:43 am

seahawk wrote:
Well the good thing is that the UK is still doing well, why the EU is deep into a recession. So maybe it is really better to get out for the UK, so the UK does not have to pay for the failures of Italy, France or Germany.


That will be the canary in the coal mine.

If Brexit happens and the German economic bubble bursts (like it is already happening), the Salvinis and Wilders of the EU will be spotted in a new light and their arguments all of a sudden will be realistic. 1) it is possible to leave the EU without the world falling apart, 2) Germany (read = the EU) which has told everyone what to do and how lazy they are (best example: Greece), was just another economic bubble and they are not God.

IMO it will be quite interesting to see. Certainly the EU will need a "reshift" in the power balance in order to survive.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10777
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:39 am

SCQ83 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Well the good thing is that the UK is still doing well, why the EU is deep into a recession. So maybe it is really better to get out for the UK, so the UK does not have to pay for the failures of Italy, France or Germany.


That will be the canary in the coal mine.

If Brexit happens and the German economic bubble bursts (like it is already happening),


Quite hilarious statement considering that 2018 growth numbers are not out yet, not expected to be bad and yesterdays job numbers are not just a record January low, but also a touch better than expected. .....

If you want a canary in a goal mine you have to look at Gross Fixed Capital Formation, which in Germany is increasing and currently almost twice (!) as high as the UKs, that is shrinking, as that is in deed a fairly good predictor of future growth.... left scale is Germany, right scale is the UK.

Image

I didn´t check for all other EU members, but that seems to be fairly consistent. Even troublesome France, or Spain, or Portugal or Greece....

Even in GDP gross rate the UK only managed to grow faster than Germany in two quarters since the Brexit vote, one of which was just due to special effects......

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10777
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:41 am

SCQ83 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Well the good thing is that the UK is still doing well, why the EU is deep into a recession. So maybe it is really better to get out for the UK, so the UK does not have to pay for the failures of Italy, France or Germany.


That will be the canary in the coal mine.

If Brexit happens and the German economic bubble bursts (like it is already happening),


Quite hilarious statement considering that 2018 growth numbers are not out yet, not expected to be bad and yesterdays job numbers are not just a record January low, but also a touch better than expected. .....

If you want a canary in a goal mine you have to look at Gross Fixed Capital Formation, which in Germany is increasing and currently almost twice (!) as high as the UKs, that is shrinking, as that is in deed a fairly good predictor of future growth.... left scale is Germany, right scale is the UK.

Image

I didn´t check for all other EU members, but that seems to be fairly consistent. Even troublesome France, or Spain, or Portugal or Greece....

Even in GDP gross rate the UK only managed to grow faster than Germany in two quarters since the Brexit vote, one of which was just due to special effects......

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8605
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:38 am

SCQ83 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Well the good thing is that the UK is still doing well, why the EU is deep into a recession. So maybe it is really better to get out for the UK, so the UK does not have to pay for the failures of Italy, France or Germany.


That will be the canary in the coal mine.

If Brexit happens and the German economic bubble bursts (like it is already happening), the Salvinis and Wilders of the EU will be spotted in a new light and their arguments all of a sudden will be realistic. 1) it is possible to leave the EU without the world falling apart, 2) Germany (read = the EU) which has told everyone what to do and how lazy they are (best example: Greece), was just another economic bubble and they are not God.

IMO it will be quite interesting to see. Certainly the EU will need a "reshift" in the power balance in order to survive.


I agree. The EU won´t survive the coming economic disaster that will hit mainland Europe in 2019.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14234
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:54 am

The EU has reached a certain point of being too big and some members, currently the UK, reacting.

Its origins to coordinate coal and steel production in the 1950's have evolved to a too big and too diverse bureaucratic monster. Too many good paying industrial and other jobs from the UK and the western members went and still continue to go to the new post-USSR members that have much lower labor costs. Millions of workers from the newer Eastern members poured into the western ones, including the UK, depressing pay and jobs in particular for younger people. Too many regulations to coordinate trade that means each country can't do what they think is best for their people and watering down their governments. The final blows have been the economic mess of some members, especially Italy and Greece, and the mass migrations, in particular allowed by Germany, from Syria and other areas of the Islamic world. Many believe that Germany controls the EU, especially as to monetary policy via the Euro. The 'richer' countries like the UK no longer want to subsidize the poorer ones, when they are facing austerity.

With Brexit, the EU may be beginning to devolve to a smaller and less powerful institution, going back more to its origins to coordinate trade. We might see a return of some border controls, members limit migrant workers, each more control of their monetary policy including ending the Euro and limit entry from certain countries outside the EU.
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2746
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:05 am

ltbewr wrote:
Too many good paying industrial and other jobs from the UK and the western members went and still continue to go to the new post-USSR members that have much lower labor costs.


In the EU it is not permitted for a nation state to offer incentives for companies to relocate from one EU state to another. It is a free market. On leaving the EU we become a third country and this will then be legal... we are already seeing the effects of companies wanting to leave the UK because of leaving the single market - and from 30th March they will potentially have financial incentives available too. Leaving the EU does not help this cause one bit.

ltbewr wrote:
Millions of workers from the newer Eastern members poured into the western ones, including the UK, depressing pay and jobs in particular for younger people.


There is some research that suggests that immigration has reduced wages, but it is minimal, and the main class of people any reduction has seen is on the immigrants themselves.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigr ... migration/

ltbewr wrote:
Too many regulations to coordinate trade that means each country can't do what they think is best for their people and watering down their governments.


The single market means you have to have co-ordination of standards and laws - this is for the economic good. All laws are passed through democratic institutions in the EU, and then made into domestic law through democratic national governments.

No watering down at all - the domestic governments are fully involved.

ltbewr wrote:
The final blows have been the economic mess of some members, especially Italy and Greece, and the mass migrations, in particular allowed by Germany, from Syria and other areas of the Islamic world.


We are are talking here mainly about illegal immigration.. This will continue whether we are in the EU or not. Countries need to work together on such issues, to deal with the causes of the problem. Pulling out of the biggest trade block in the world is not a clever way to address this issue.

ltbewr wrote:
Many believe that Germany controls the EU, especially as to monetary policy via the Euro. The 'richer' countries like the UK no longer want to subsidize the poorer ones, when they are facing austerity.


The UK does not use the euro. We had an opt out on that, so not entirely relevant to the UK and its position in the EU.

Our interests as big EU powers have actually been very aligned with Germany. That our politicians and much of the public have not seen this or embraced it, through a war that ended 74 years ago has been a huge mistake. France continues to co-operate with Germany even though they were occupied by Germany. How the UK cannot get over this WW2 obsession is quite beyond me.

The amount we pay into the EU is almost insignificant compared to other spending. As we are finding out now, the cost of leaving, in an economic sense and also in replacing EU institutions with new domestic ones outweighs the costs to the EU.

Image

There is no Brexit dividend, the red bus was a lie....

ltbewr wrote:
With Brexit, the EU may be beginning to devolve to a smaller and less powerful institution, going back more to its origins to coordinate trade.


You are talking in riddles here, for the single market to operate (i.e. the origins, the EEC) you need to co-ordinate standards and rules which you have criticised above. For the single market to be wholly effective a customs union, bringing down borders is also necessary.

Yet in this Brexit we see a refusal from the major Brexiters, eg UKIP, Boris, Farage, Theresa May, to go back to the "origins" of the EEC - i.e. single market and customs union, and instead a lust to throw everything away.

ltbewr wrote:
We might see a return of some border controls, members limit migrant workers, each more control of their monetary policy including ending the Euro and limit entry from certain countries outside the EU.


2/3rds of UK's immigration is from outside of the EU - it is something the EU has zero impact on. We are sovereign.

And in exactly the same way, every other EU country also deals with external immigration domestically, this is not down to the EU.

And on EU immigration, all the UK has needed to do is implement Article 7. This would allow us to ensure EU citizens coming here and staying for over three months have work and/or will not be a drain on our social security system. Yet UK has never put this into force.

http://www.eearegulations.co.uk/Citizen ... Article_07

I hope this helps.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10777
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:41 am

ltbewr wrote:
Its origins to coordinate coal and steel production in the 1950's have evolved to a too big


The EU was intended to be what it is today from its inception, Pan-European currency included.

and too diverse bureaucratic monster.


That utter nonsense doesn´t die, doesn´t it? The EU bureaucracy is just about the most effective governing body on this planet, by far. The "Oh, we want small government" USA have a agriculture department four times as big as the whole EU government.

Too many good paying industrial and other jobs from the UK and the western members went and still continue to go to the new post-USSR members that have much lower labor costs.


Ah, and you think they would not have done that without the EU why exactly? Plenty of Jobs go to China or Vietnam or or or and they are not EU members. Those jobs didn´t get lost because of EU, but because of the UK not being competitive. Macro-economically it is even more bogus, since mostly jobs with limited value generation leave, and as long unemployment stay in check, which it does, is actually beneficial to the net wealth of a nation. ....

Millions of workers from the newer Eastern members poured into the western ones, including the UK, depressing pay and jobs in particular for younger people.


nice bit of propaganda you have fallen for. On average EU immigrants not just pay more into HMs treasury than UK citizens than they receive, they pay on average more taxes. Which kinda reeks of average higher incomes...

Too many regulations to coordinate trade


Also funny, without the EU businesses in the UK would have far, far more regulations to pay attention to.

that means each country can't do what they think is best for their people and watering down their governments


You do realize that those restrictions are mosty from WTO rules, and they persist after leaving the EU, right?

and the mass migrations,


you mean the mass immigration into the UK, 2/3 of which the UK hat utterly unilateral control over or the 1/3 where the UK could have implemented a ton of restrictions and chose not to?

in particular allowed by Germany, from Syria and other areas of the Islamic world.


Well, let set this straight. Germany didn´t let anyone in, the Hungarian cunt Victor Orban actually provided travel services to them, buy taking public transport busses out of public service to use them to ferry refugees onwards. He did so after, along side with Poland and other eastern European countries, obstructing EU efforts to stem the tide early and as close to the source as possible.
Germany, alongside with Austria, only decided not to have troops open fire on those masses of refugees Orban travel services offloaded there.

Many believe that Germany controls the EU, especially as to monetary policy via the Euro.


yeah, we already know that most Brexiteers have no clue how the EU, or the ECB, work and opt to swallow conspiracy theories instead of finding out....

The 'richer' countries like the UK no longer want to subsidize the poorer ones, when they are facing austerity.


Yeah, some governments are apparently stupid like that. EU Budget net contributors reap a nice RoI on their payments. The UK already lost more in Investments than the net contribution many times over, and they don´t even have left yet.....

With Brexit, the EU may be beginning to devolve to a smaller and less powerful institution


more delusion. Every single indication is that the UK was a big roadblock to more EU integration, the EU is more popular outside the UK that it has been in a long, long time and even conservative, right wing nationalist governments like in Italy are basically calling leaving the EU or the EUR so stupid that they don´t even consider that...

going back more to its origins to coordinate trade.


Just another miss information you fell for. There never, ever was the plan to just coordinate trade. Even the idea of a pan-european currency came up a touch before the steel and coal union. Close political integration has always been the stated goal.

We might see a return of some border controls


No, no one is going to remove my rights from me or any other EU Citizen, unless my home country is as stupid as the UK stripping their citizens rights away.

members limit migrant workers,


They already do. Remember the EU allows for plenty of ordnance to do just that, the UK only chose not to use that.

each more control of their monetary policy including ending the Euro


Even if the Euro was ended, national governments control over monetary policy would remain the same. Central banks are independent, you know...

and limit entry from certain countries outside the EU.


What? You do know that Schengen Visa rules are not imposed by the EU, but agreed on by the member countries, right?

I am amazed that there are still people in 2019 that know nothing about the EU, how it works, what it does, its history, its rules, its goals,... ,.... ,....

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1712
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:50 am

tommy1808 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Many believe that Germany controls the EU, especially as to monetary policy via the Euro.


yeah, we already know that most Brexiteers have no clue how the EU, or the ECB, work and opt to swallow conspiracy theories instead of finding out....


Funny; the very same people used to always say it was France that ran the EU - then Greece happened and suddenly it's Germany at the controls... They can't even decide which lie to propagate.


I am amazed that there are still people in 2019 that know nothing about the EU, how it works, what it does, its history, its rules, its goals,... ,.... ,....


I know, right? That's why - post failure of Brexit - we need to have a government that makes a real effort to put out the right message... publicity campaigns, school curriculum, promotion of EU-backed science and education programmes, prominent recognition of EU funding whenever this applies to projects (like I've seen everywhere else in Europe *except* the UK...).

Of course, the Brexiteers will call this propaganda - which is ironic considering the mess we're in is all directly related to decades of actual shameless anti-EU propaganda from their side.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11729
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:51 pm

marcelh wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Considering the news this morning of Italy in recession and German economic growth slowing, it will be interesting to see if the EU27 governments put pressure on the EU to open up the WA again. A hard brexit isn’t going to help anyones economy.


I happily take some economical headwind just to see how the Brexiteers are coping with the results of a Hard Brexit. A very interesting political and economic experiment


What I wonder is what will happen to the left-right political spectrum in Brexit Britain, will poor people realize that their fate is mostly due to the rich ruling their country, not the EU ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11729
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:58 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
I agree with your analysis on the UK being caught in a state of permanent renegotiation after Brexit, but I feel this is going to be the outcome regardless, including no deal.

It's a given that any outcome is going to be unacceptable to enough people to seek immediate changes to it: labour will bring the CU membership back up the day they come to power


Why are leftists liking the CU, I don't follow ? They should be against cheap imports that compete with local production, no ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2746
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:58 pm

Aesma wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
I agree with your analysis on the UK being caught in a state of permanent renegotiation after Brexit, but I feel this is going to be the outcome regardless, including no deal.

It's a given that any outcome is going to be unacceptable to enough people to seek immediate changes to it: labour will bring the CU membership back up the day they come to power


Why are leftists liking the CU, I don't follow ? They should be against cheap imports that compete with local production, no ?


Everything is the wrong way round at the moment.

The conservatives are traditionally the party of business, yet they support leaving the single market and customs union, introducing tariffs and quotas (on all imports/exports in event of crash out) and all the accompanying red tape and bureaucracy to boot.

The conservatives are traditionally for free markets, but now oppose the free movement of goods, services, capital and labour.

Their lust for leaving the EU has made them forget their underlying principles....
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11729
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:28 pm

ltbewr wrote:
A still small but growing number of UK citizens are seeking dual citizenship with EC countries due to Brexit fears. This is mainly done for economic security and not easy with some countries
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/01/29/br ... -passport/


Several UK journalists based in France are becoming dual citizens.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Arion640
Posts: 2382
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:06 pm

Aesma wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Considering the news this morning of Italy in recession and German economic growth slowing, it will be interesting to see if the EU27 governments put pressure on the EU to open up the WA again. A hard brexit isn’t going to help anyones economy.


I happily take some economical headwind just to see how the Brexiteers are coping with the results of a Hard Brexit. A very interesting political and economic experiment


What I wonder is what will happen to the left-right political spectrum in Brexit Britain, will poor people realize that their fate is mostly due to the rich ruling their country, not the EU ?


Some would argue that it is, as they claim the EU has taken the manufacturing industruy and shipped it off to Poland. For example blanu Gwent in South wales had a steel production plant which was moved off to the Netherlands (look it up on youtube).
223 319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 73G 738 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 MD83 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75

Brexit - It’s time for global Britain.
 
marcelh
Posts: 675
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:37 pm

Arion640 wrote:
For example blanu Gwent in South wales had a steel production plant which was moved off to the Netherlands (look it up on youtube).

Only a part went to The Netherlands, another part to Llaneli (West Wales) when shut down in 2002And the closure had already begun in 1995, when a part was shut down. BTW, back then it was a British Steel company.

Don’t you have any more relevant examples?

BTW: the company which closed the Blanu Gwent. Plant was Corus. In which British Steel had a majority stake of 60percent. And Corus was a direct result of the privatisation of British Steel, which has been initiated by Tatcher.
 
Arion640
Posts: 2382
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:24 pm

marcelh wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
For example blanu Gwent in South wales had a steel production plant which was moved off to the Netherlands (look it up on youtube).

Only a part went to The Netherlands, another part to Llaneli (West Wales) when shut down in 2002And the closure had already begun in 1995, when a part was shut down. BTW, back then it was a British Steel company.

Don’t you have any more relevant examples?

BTW: the company which closed the Blanu Gwent. Plant was Corus. In which British Steel had a majority stake of 60percent. And Corus was a direct result of the privatisation of British Steel, which has been initiated by Tatcher.


Not actually my opinion. I was trying to answer the asked question.
223 319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 73G 738 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 MD83 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75

Brexit - It’s time for global Britain.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3039
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:40 pm

Today, the EU-Japan trade agreement entered into force, creating the largest open trade zone in the world by taking down trade barriers between the homes of 635 million people and representing almost a third of the world's Gross Domestic Product:

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-19-785_en.htm

Another brandnew and truly global free trade deal lost for the UK in just over 50 days in case of a no deal....

Meanwhile, how many global and all new FTAs Dr. Fox has ligned up for exclusive UK use, ready to be signed the second after Brexit again? :spit:
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1712
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:50 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Not actually my opinion. I was trying to answer the asked question.


Well you didn't, since your example is about the Conservative privatised British Steel becoming the majority partner with Dutch company Hoogovens to form Corus, which found itself not doing very well and got bought out by Indian company Tata Steel, still not doing very well and again facing closure of various low performing Welsh plants...

... What does any of that have to do with the EU or manufacturing in Eastern Europe?!?
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
Arion640
Posts: 2382
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:59 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Not actually my opinion. I was trying to answer the asked question.


Well you didn't, since your example is about the Conservative privatised British Steel becoming the majority partner with Dutch company Hoogovens to form Corus, which found itself not doing very well and got bought out by Indian company Tata Steel, still not doing very well and again facing closure of various low performing Welsh plants...

... What does any of that have to do with the EU or manufacturing in Eastern Europe?!?


My point going way over your head there :roll:
223 319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 73G 738 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 MD83 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75

Brexit - It’s time for global Britain.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21254
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:42 am

Arion640 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Not actually my opinion. I was trying to answer the asked question.


Well you didn't, since your example is about the Conservative privatised British Steel becoming the majority partner with Dutch company Hoogovens to form Corus, which found itself not doing very well and got bought out by Indian company Tata Steel, still not doing very well and again facing closure of various low performing Welsh plants...

... What does any of that have to do with the EU or manufacturing in Eastern Europe?!?


My point going way over your head there :roll:

More like falling flat on its face, since what you posted isn't even close to the actual truth.
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1712
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:49 am

Arion640 wrote:
My point going way over your head there :roll:


I have re read your back and forth several times, and your point doesn't come across at all.

"some would say it is" [presumably meaning failure of their local manufacturing is the fault of the EU(*)] then followed by a non sequitur about steel plants which had nothing to do with the EU.

(*) nor to do with rich people, the only other thing you mentioned.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3039
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:05 am

So do I get this right Arion640 that in Brexit Britain multinationals will no longer be allowed to restructure and shift production between different sites if those happen to be abroad???? Sounds like JC is not going to have to change that much upon becoming PM....
Such policies are going to lure a lot of new companies to the UK I'm sure, knowing that everybody they hire is effectively on a life time contract and any investment they make is effectively completely lost upon the first cyclic downturn! :shakehead:

You are aware that things will likely get A LOT worse concerning moving British jobs over to Europe do you?

As had been mentioned before, once the UK is out of the EU, the EU allows its member states to go full blast on subsidizing inward investment initiatives aimed at attracting British production sites (back) to the EU....in fact its another one of those tools the UK could have used to protect its economy and its workforce from the fall out of globalisation but rather elected not to use for purely ideological reasons!
The EU will even help coordinate any such efforts by a memberstate so I'm sure they are currently drafting lists with British plants and looking for convenient sites all over Europe to propose as cheaper, newer, and more efficient alternatives to their owners, with the added benefit of completely frictionless trade from within the largest trading block in the world, having concluded trade deals which make it the largest free trade area in the world even.... it probably won't even cost a lot of convincing nor money to win quite a lot of them over in case of a 'no deal', sadly.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8605
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:27 am

Industries will be put back under government control. That is Corbyn´s end game anyway and why he does not wants to stop Brexit, because he needs it to achieve his goals.
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1712
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:21 am

seahawk wrote:
Industries will be put back under government control. That is Corbyn´s end game anyway and why he does not wants to stop Brexit, because he needs it to achieve his goals.


Oh. Was *that* the point?! Bravo for solving the riddle.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
sbworcs
Posts: 795
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:19 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:37 am

tommy1808 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Its origins to coordinate coal and steel production in the 1950's have evolved to a too big


The EU was intended to be what it is today from its inception, Pan-European currency included.

and too diverse bureaucratic monster.


That utter nonsense doesn´t die, doesn´t it? The EU bureaucracy is just about the most effective governing body on this planet, by far. The "Oh, we want small government" USA have a agriculture department four times as big as the whole EU government.

Too many good paying industrial and other jobs from the UK and the western members went and still continue to go to the new post-USSR members that have much lower labor costs.


Ah, and you think they would not have done that without the EU why exactly? Plenty of Jobs go to China or Vietnam or or or and they are not EU members. Those jobs didn´t get lost because of EU, but because of the UK not being competitive. Macro-economically it is even more bogus, since mostly jobs with limited value generation leave, and as long unemployment stay in check, which it does, is actually beneficial to the net wealth of a nation. ....

Millions of workers from the newer Eastern members poured into the western ones, including the UK, depressing pay and jobs in particular for younger people.


nice bit of propaganda you have fallen for. On average EU immigrants not just pay more into HMs treasury than UK citizens than they receive, they pay on average more taxes. Which kinda reeks of average higher incomes...

Too many regulations to coordinate trade


Also funny, without the EU businesses in the UK would have far, far more regulations to pay attention to.

that means each country can't do what they think is best for their people and watering down their governments


You do realize that those restrictions are mosty from WTO rules, and they persist after leaving the EU, right?

and the mass migrations,


you mean the mass immigration into the UK, 2/3 of which the UK hat utterly unilateral control over or the 1/3 where the UK could have implemented a ton of restrictions and chose not to?

in particular allowed by Germany, from Syria and other areas of the Islamic world.


Well, let set this straight. Germany didn´t let anyone in, the Hungarian cunt Victor Orban actually provided travel services to them, buy taking public transport busses out of public service to use them to ferry refugees onwards. He did so after, along side with Poland and other eastern European countries, obstructing EU efforts to stem the tide early and as close to the source as possible.
Germany, alongside with Austria, only decided not to have troops open fire on those masses of refugees Orban travel services offloaded there.

Many believe that Germany controls the EU, especially as to monetary policy via the Euro.


yeah, we already know that most Brexiteers have no clue how the EU, or the ECB, work and opt to swallow conspiracy theories instead of finding out....

The 'richer' countries like the UK no longer want to subsidize the poorer ones, when they are facing austerity.


Yeah, some governments are apparently stupid like that. EU Budget net contributors reap a nice RoI on their payments. The UK already lost more in Investments than the net contribution many times over, and they don´t even have left yet.....

With Brexit, the EU may be beginning to devolve to a smaller and less powerful institution


more delusion. Every single indication is that the UK was a big roadblock to more EU integration, the EU is more popular outside the UK that it has been in a long, long time and even conservative, right wing nationalist governments like in Italy are basically calling leaving the EU or the EUR so stupid that they don´t even consider that...

going back more to its origins to coordinate trade.


Just another miss information you fell for. There never, ever was the plan to just coordinate trade. Even the idea of a pan-european currency came up a touch before the steel and coal union. Close political integration has always been the stated goal.

We might see a return of some border controls


No, no one is going to remove my rights from me or any other EU Citizen, unless my home country is as stupid as the UK stripping their citizens rights away.

members limit migrant workers,


They already do. Remember the EU allows for plenty of ordnance to do just that, the UK only chose not to use that.

each more control of their monetary policy including ending the Euro


Even if the Euro was ended, national governments control over monetary policy would remain the same. Central banks are independent, you know...

and limit entry from certain countries outside the EU.


What? You do know that Schengen Visa rules are not imposed by the EU, but agreed on by the member countries, right?

I am amazed that there are still people in 2019 that know nothing about the EU, how it works, what it does, its history, its rules, its goals,... ,.... ,....

Best regards
Thomas


Excellent reponses. But could you please stop trying to inject some reason in t these discussions! The laws available to us already regarding EU migration is really not known here - too many interests in blaming the EU for everything that is wrong in the UK - who are people going to blame after Brexit?
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
sbworcs
Posts: 795
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:19 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:43 am

sabenapilot wrote:
Today, the EU-Japan trade agreement entered into force, creating the largest open trade zone in the world by taking down trade barriers between the homes of 635 million people and representing almost a third of the world's Gross Domestic Product:

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-19-785_en.htm

Another brandnew and truly global free trade deal lost for the UK in just over 50 days in case of a no deal....

Meanwhile, how many global and all new FTAs Dr. Fox has ligned up for exclusive UK use, ready to be signed the second after Brexit again? :spit:


I still, to this day do not understand the argument from Brexiteers about ability to forge our own trade deals if we leave. We already have access to several (70 i think?) as part of the EU and then new ones coming on line.

Anyone that thinks any deal given to us will be on better terms than we would get as part of a march larger trading partner is living in cloud cuckoo land
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9796
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:02 am

sbworcs wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Today, the EU-Japan trade agreement entered into force, creating the largest open trade zone in the world by taking down trade barriers between the homes of 635 million people and representing almost a third of the world's Gross Domestic Product:

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-19-785_en.htm

Another brandnew and truly global free trade deal lost for the UK in just over 50 days in case of a no deal....

Meanwhile, how many global and all new FTAs Dr. Fox has ligned up for exclusive UK use, ready to be signed the second after Brexit again? :spit:


I still, to this day do not understand the argument from Brexiteers about ability to forge our own trade deals if we leave. We already have access to several (70 i think?) as part of the EU and then new ones coming on line.

Anyone that thinks any deal given to us will be on better terms than we would get as part of a march larger trading partner is living in cloud cuckoo land


They believe in the unicorn in cockoo land. They believe they can get a better deal with more than 2/3 of the richest countries, whom happened to be neighbors, then frickles trade, so I am guessing the true believers in Brexit, must believe that the EU is willing to pay Brittian to be a partner. This believe would explain a lot about the attitude of the true believer.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8605
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:23 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Industries will be put back under government control. That is Corbyn´s end game anyway and why he does not wants to stop Brexit, because he needs it to achieve his goals.


Oh. Was *that* the point?! Bravo for solving the riddle.


Well it would at least explain his position on Brexit.
 
sbworcs
Posts: 795
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:19 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:55 am

They believe in the unicorn in cockoo land. They believe they can get a better deal with more than 2/3 of the richest countries, whom happened to be neighbors, then frickles trade, so I am guessing the true believers in Brexit, must believe that the EU is willing to pay Brittian to be a partner. This believe would explain a lot about the attitude of the true believer.


I always forget the Unicorn upon which the white knight will come and save us!
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10777
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:19 am

sbworcs wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Today, the EU-Japan trade agreement entered into force, creating the largest open trade zone in the world by taking down trade barriers between the homes of 635 million people and representing almost a third of the world's Gross Domestic Product:

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-19-785_en.htm

Another brandnew and truly global free trade deal lost for the UK in just over 50 days in case of a no deal....

Meanwhile, how many global and all new FTAs Dr. Fox has ligned up for exclusive UK use, ready to be signed the second after Brexit again? :spit:


I still, to this day do not understand the argument from Brexiteers about ability to forge our own trade deals if we leave. We already have access to several (70 i think?) as part of the EU and then new ones coming on line.

Anyone that thinks any deal given to us will be on better terms than we would get as part of a march larger trading partner is living in cloud cuckoo land


Well, if free trade isn't enough, you need to get trade deal that give stuff for free. Just like the good ok times of the empire.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Klaus
Posts: 21254
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:46 pm

seahawk wrote:
Industries will be put back under government control. That is Corbyn´s end game anyway and why he does not wants to stop Brexit, because he needs it to achieve his goals.

Unfortunately that approach would seem to be consistent with pre-Thatcher Labour policies.

I've just (re-)read a Spiegel article from 1979 about Britain which pointed out a multitude of purely domestic british issues which led to the malaise then and which – looking from today – still haven't been resolved for the most part.

Thatcher just bulldozed Britain's industry and threw the country completely behind financial services instead, leaving the main issues unsolved and driving the country into the dead end whose consequences were then blamed on the EU. And her successors haven't changed course all that much.

Corbin seems to be enamoured with the same Labour recipes which helped the pre-EU decline of the UK along, in destructive alternation with equally pointless Tory ones, and even in a time where responsibility should be assumed by all parties for the fate of the nation he's thinking purely tactically and only of his own and his own party's interests instead.

And since he had taken the Brexit lies on board as well and never countered them, he has poisoned his own authority to now actually take a stand.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3067
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:29 pm

The EU has offered to keep North Ireland in the Customs Union if the UK would put a border in the Irish Sea. North Ireland would remain in the UK, but have the special customs agreement. Given that NI people have to travel to the rest of UK by boat or air minimal passport controls would be necessary. Goods would need to go through customs checks. The impact on everyday life would be minimal. North Irish would enjoy, via ROI rules both UK and EU citizenship. EK laws would continue.

Has there been any polling is to how the 'catholics' and 'protestants' would vote on such an arrangement? And possibly any other demographic breakdown that matters (men, women? old, young? high school grad versus college? income?)
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
opticalilyushin
Posts: 683
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:35 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:57 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Has there been any polling is to how the 'catholics' and 'protestants' would vote on such an arrangement? And possibly any other demographic breakdown that matters (men, women? old, young? high school grad versus college? income?)


The general consensus is in favour of this arrangement. The majority of the population voted remain and don't want any change, as cross border industries and projects are in everyone's interests. Sadly the 10 DUP members supporting the PM are holding us to ransom about this, as they feel it is a threat to the sovereignty.

In any case, I imagine any formalities would be more or less no different to what we currently experience when travelling to the Channel Islands (I.e. no one really notices), maybe a quick ID check at most.
 
A3801000
Posts: 558
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:59 am

lol

'Queen To Be Evacuated In Case of No-Deal Brexit Riots: Times'

'Emergency proposals to rescue the royal family during the Cold War have been "repurposed" in recent weeks in preparation for a possibility of no-deal Brexit riots, The Sunday Times reports, citing an unidentified cabinet office source.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... iots-times
 
marcelh
Posts: 675
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:48 am

A3801000 wrote:
lol

'Queen To Be Evacuated In Case of No-Deal Brexit Riots: Times'

'Emergency proposals to rescue the royal family during the Cold War have been "repurposed" in recent weeks in preparation for a possibility of no-deal Brexit riots, The Sunday Times reports, citing an unidentified cabinet office source.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... iots-times


But... but..... they were promised unicorns, gold at the end of the rainbows and the river Thames filled
with milk and honey... :eek:
 
WIederling
Posts: 8693
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:57 am

Dutchy wrote:
that might be the case, but they still have a point.


... As a global danger.

It is much more than just Europe going over the populist brink in lockstep.

apropos:
is it just my impression that this haute volee of intellectualism
is mostly composed of previous politically leveraged "workers".

( forex I never understood why Herta Mueller got a Nobel prize except
as a tool of political leveraging.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14234
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:46 pm

Klaus wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Industries will be put back under government control. That is Corbyn´s end game anyway and why he does not wants to stop Brexit, because he needs it to achieve his goals.

Unfortunately that approach would seem to be consistent with pre-Thatcher Labour policies.

I've just (re-)read a Spiegel article from 1979 about Britain which pointed out a multitude of purely domestic british issues which led to the malaise then and which – looking from today – still haven't been resolved for the most part.

Thatcher just bulldozed Britain's industry and threw the country completely behind financial services instead, leaving the main issues unsolved and driving the country into the dead end whose consequences were then blamed on the EU. And her successors haven't changed course all that much.

Corbin seems to be enamoured with the same Labour recipes which helped the pre-EU decline of the UK along, in destructive alternation with equally pointless Tory ones, and even in a time where responsibility should be assumed by all parties for the fate of the nation he's thinking purely tactically and only of his own and his own party's interests instead.

And since he had taken the Brexit lies on board as well and never countered them, he has poisoned his own authority to now actually take a stand.


Britain's industry was pretty much ruined by the extremely hostile unions seeking to keep too many in factories or mines, too frequent strikes and awful quality of work. Government takeovers and subsidies to try to placate workers didn't do much good. The domestic based motor vehicle industry like the British Leyland group, was a basket case due to some of the worst engineered and made cars in the 1970's. The Japanese carmakers Nissan, Toyota and Honda came in once the Unions were broken and opened what are today some of the most productive and quality product motor vehicle plants in the UK and much of the EU. Such plants, and many others, could be ruined along with their jobs if a 'no-deal' Brexit happens.
As much as I and many others despise Margaret 'Iron Lady' Thatcher, she had to make the tough decisions, break the extremist unions and stop wasteful use of government subsidies. I don't see Brexit bringing back the 70's mentality as to workers, government takeovers and subsidies. That is long gone and won't happen. Labour has to face reality but the tipping point of the Brexit vote came from the former and remaining industrial 'rustbelt' of England thinking it would bring back jobs their fathers and grandfathers had.

A3801000 wrote:
lol

'Queen To Be Evacuated In Case of No-Deal Brexit Riots: Times'

'Emergency proposals to rescue the royal family during the Cold War have been "repurposed" in recent weeks in preparation for a possibility of no-deal Brexit riots, The Sunday Times reports, citing an unidentified cabinet office source.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... iots-times


First of all, I don't think anyone will attack the Queen and the royal family. The Queen and most of the then Royal family didn't hide during WW II, They are off limits but as London would be the epicenter of possible riots, one has to take reasonable precautions.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9796
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:31 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Labour has to face reality but the tipping point of the Brexit vote came from the former and remaining industrial 'rustbelt' of England thinking it would bring back jobs their fathers and grandfathers had.


This is the main problem in western society, Brexit, Trump, Italian populist movement, we need to find an answer to the real problems these people face, without promising to bring back jobs whom aren't there anymore.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Number6
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:47 pm

Dutchy wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Labour has to face reality but the tipping point of the Brexit vote came from the former and remaining industrial 'rustbelt' of England thinking it would bring back jobs their fathers and grandfathers had.


This is the main problem in western society, Brexit, Trump, Italian populist movement, we need to find an answer to the real problems these people face, without promising to bring back jobs whom aren't there anymore.


This Dutchy, just this. What the world needs right now is the truth told by politicians. No more quick fixes and short term plans. The world is changing, and we’d do better if politicians were honest in telling us ‘we need to move forward’ instead of trying to stop the change that’s happening. Only when we fully prepare people for the future can we assess what needs to change and how to support that and the people caught up in it. And it all begins with truthfulness from our elected officials. I really believe that.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9796
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:19 pm

Number6 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Labour has to face reality but the tipping point of the Brexit vote came from the former and remaining industrial 'rustbelt' of England thinking it would bring back jobs their fathers and grandfathers had.


This is the main problem in western society, Brexit, Trump, Italian populist movement, we need to find an answer to the real problems these people face, without promising to bring back jobs whom aren't there anymore.


This Dutchy, just this. What the world needs right now is the truth told by politicians. No more quick fixes and short term plans. The world is changing, and we’d do better if politicians were honest in telling us ‘we need to move forward’ instead of trying to stop the change that’s happening. Only when we fully prepare people for the future can we assess what needs to change and how to support that and the people caught up in it. And it all begins with truthfulness from our elected officials. I really believe that.


I full heartedly agree with you. I don't see any politicians truly make that argument and high-level people in business for that matter. Needless to say, it is all the same problem: short term gain. Politicians need to make it to the next election in 4 to 5 years and the top brass in business need to make it to the next quarterly term. We need a long term vision. You can say about the Chinese what you want, but they have the long term at heart. I think we need a new long term vision: how do we want society to look like in 20years: sustainable and fair.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
Posts: 1163
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:28 pm

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/10818 ... -today-BBC

Solution for NI? One united Ireland?
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14234
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:31 pm

Number6 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Labour has to face reality but the tipping point of the Brexit vote came from the former and remaining industrial 'rustbelt' of England thinking it would bring back jobs their fathers and grandfathers had.


This is the main problem in western society, Brexit, Trump, Italian populist movement, we need to find an answer to the real problems these people face, without promising to bring back jobs whom aren't there anymore.


This Dutchy, just this. What the world needs right now is the truth told by politicians. No more quick fixes and short term plans. The world is changing, and we’d do better if politicians were honest in telling us ‘we need to move forward’ instead of trying to stop the change that’s happening. Only when we fully prepare people for the future can we assess what needs to change and how to support that and the people caught up in it. And it all begins with truthfulness from our elected officials. I really believe that.

In the USA and the UK there are Billions in infrastructure needs, a need to move away from carbon and nuke based energy, for more people who will do good paying dirty work like car mechanics and welders where are worker shortages, that can provide many badly needed good paying jobs. There is also the need to properly tax, but no over tax corporations and the rich, assure efficient spending and regulations, find ways to prevent excessive investments in real property that eliminate affordable housing for working class persons. A new balance must be reached, but I fear that Brexit and trade wars like Pres. Trump has done will make it more difficult to achieve those needs and goals. Of course, most politicians will promise the moon, no new or higher taxes and so on to get elected, but then give too much in tax breaks to the rich and corporations for 'trickle down' affects that won't happen and just deepen the growing economic decline of the working and middle class. As that decline continues with more affected, voters will turn to authoritarians, phony populists, votes like Brexit as a message they want change.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3067
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:13 pm

:checkmark:
Dutchy wrote:
Number6 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

This is the main problem in western society, Brexit, Trump, Italian populist movement, we need to find an answer to the real problems these people face, without promising to bring back jobs whom aren't there anymore.


This Dutchy, just this. What the world needs right now is the truth told by politicians. No more quick fixes and short term plans. The world is changing, and we’d do better if politicians were honest in telling us ‘we need to move forward’ instead of trying to stop the change that’s happening. Only when we fully prepare people for the future can we assess what needs to change and how to support that and the people caught up in it. And it all begins with truthfulness from our elected officials. I really believe that.


I full heartedly agree with you. I don't see any politicians truly make that argument and high-level people in business for that matter. Needless to say, it is all the same problem: short term gain. Politicians need to make it to the next election in 4 to 5 years and the top brass in business need to make it to the next quarterly term. We need a long term vision. You can say about the Chinese what you want, but they have the long term at heart. I think we need a new long term vision: how do we want society to look like in 20years: sustainable and fair.


:checkmark:

And the same for the US
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:17 pm

olle wrote:
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1081837/Brexit-news-united-Ireland-referendum-backstop-hard-Brexit-no-deal-UK-EU-today-BBC

Solution for NI? One united Ireland?


Sinn Fein have been calling for a border poll ever since the referendum result was announced, probably because NI voting by a majority to remain in the EU suits their agenda for a United Ireland (given that RoI is in the EU and probably won't leave any time soon), though that's not to say a majority also support becoming part of RoI, particularly amongst unionists. Same applies to Scotland where majority support for remaining in the EU doesn't translate into now wanting Scottish independence - you only have to look at opinions polls taken since 2014 to see that support for a second independence referendum/independent Scotland has fallen despite the SNP's bluster and Sturgeon's attempt to request one last year.

The Good Friday Agreement states that a border poll on whether to remain part of the UK or to become part of RoI will only happen if a majority want a poll to happen. Has public support for such a poll shifted significantly lately? Additionally, I have noted the Irish government have swerved discussions about a border poll whenever the subject has been brought up other than simply stating now isn't the time. Whilst I personally think a United Ireland may happen some day and the mechanism exists for it to happen if NI chooses to do so, then unless there's an appetite for it I'm not sure if now is an appropriate time to be calling for a border poll.

In any case, shouldn't Sinn Fein (and the DUP for that matter) be doing all they can to get the NI Assembly up and running? Two years without a functioning Assembly reflects badly on all involved.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3039
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:41 pm

NISSAN abandons pledge from 2016 to make new SUV in the UK

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ium-europe

"Greg Clark, the U.K. business secretary when the deal was struck, had promised the Japanese automaker that the government would seek to maintain tariff-free access to the European Union once the U.K. has left the bloc."

Clearly the political grandstanding from TM that taking a 'no deal' outcome off the table would weaken the UK's position, is working... :sarcastic:

The SUV will instead be produced in Japan and thanks to the recently agreed FTA between the EU and Japan will be imported to Europe with far less hurdles than cars produced in Sunderland, UK, in future...
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2746
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:16 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
NISSAN abandons pledge from 2016 to make new SUV in the UK

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ium-europe

"Greg Clark, the U.K. business secretary when the deal was struck, had promised the Japanese automaker that the government would seek to maintain tariff-free access to the European Union once the U.K. has left the bloc."

Clearly the political grandstanding from TM that taking a 'no deal' outcome off the table would weaken the UK's position, is working... :sarcastic:

The SUV will instead be produced in Japan and thanks to the recently agreed FTA between the EU and Japan will be imported to Europe with far less hurdles than cars produced in Sunderland, UK, in future...


where's good old sevenair with a "despite brexit" graphic when you need him?

Hot on the heals of announcements from airbus, Sony, Panasonic, and many others, at what point will the great British public realise that "project fear" is now "project fact"... I hope it is sometime within the next 8 weeks....
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:24 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
NISSAN abandons pledge from 2016 to make new SUV in the UK

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ium-europe

"Greg Clark, the U.K. business secretary when the deal was struck, had promised the Japanese automaker that the government would seek to maintain tariff-free access to the European Union once the U.K. has left the bloc."

Clearly the political grandstanding from TM that taking a 'no deal' outcome off the table would weaken the UK's position, is working... :sarcastic:

The SUV will instead be produced in Japan and thanks to the recently agreed FTA between the EU and Japan will be imported to Europe with far less hurdles than cars produced in Sunderland, UK, in future...


Whilst undoubtedly a blow for Sunderland and Nissan were quite right to point out the current uncertainty around Brexit, it’s only part of the tale. The X-Trail is one of those cars best suited to diesel engines which people don’t seem to want anymore (part of which is down to Grayling’s stupid comment a few years ago about motorists needing to “think twice” before buying a diesel) despite diesel still being the best option for some and it would appear the diesel X-Trail was the model due to be produced in Sunderland.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/nissan/x- ... -in-the-uk
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... sunderland

Taking into consideration all of the above, it probably made more sense to consolidate production at the current production line in Japan.

It’s also worth noting that (for the time being) other models currently produced at Sunderland aren’t affected.

As an aside, we had the current generation X-Trail as a hire car for a few days last year. Personally I wasn’t too impresssed by it.

All that said, it would be interesting to know just how many of Nissan Sunderland’s workforce voted to leave the EU and how they feel about it now, particularly in light of today’s announcement (despite there being more to it than Brexit).
 
A101
Posts: 1175
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:45 pm

olle wrote:
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1081837/Brexit-news-united-Ireland-referendum-backstop-hard-Brexit-no-deal-UK-EU-today-BBC

Solution for NI? One united Ireland?


Should have been made a condition for the withdrawal agreement in the 1st place, since the majority in NI voted to remain, can’t be part of the UK if you are still in the CU. But that’s just me.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3067
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:25 am

In any case, shouldn't Sinn Fein (and the DUP for that matter) be doing all they can to get the NI Assembly up and running? Two years without a functioning Assembly reflects badly on all involved.


The utterly evil aspect of political parties is their propensity to put the good of party as supreme, ignoring the good of the country or political division. I suspect the should a hard Brexit take place the best we could hope for is ROI and UK jointly overseeing North Ireland for the next few years.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2290
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:37 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
The Good Friday Agreement states that a border poll on whether to remain part of the UK or to become part of RoI will only happen if a majority want a poll to happen. Has public support for such a poll shifted significantly lately? Additionally, I have noted the Irish government have swerved discussions about a border poll whenever the subject has been brought up other than simply stating now isn't the time. Whilst I personally think a United Ireland may happen some day and the mechanism exists for it to happen if NI chooses to do so, then unless there's an appetite for it I'm not sure if now is an appropriate time to be calling for a border poll.


The Shinners will always stick their oar in looking the border poll.

But really, this time, they could be right. I'd reckon there are probably 30% that will always vote for the union, 30% that'd always vote for a United Ireland and about 60% that could change opinion based on (very stark) economic differences.

If there is a hard Brexit, given that there will be no WTO tariff agreements for years (if not beyond a decade), then this place will collapse economically. When faced with the prospect of losing the roof over their head (and continued Tory dismantling of services), many of those economic voters will look to a United Ireland as a means of fixing it.

Indeed, Airbus might say to the likes of Bombardier in Belfast - look - if you guys get into the EU via United Ireland - then your tariff free compared to Broughton/Filton and would benefit from that - conversely if you don't move - then we'll move stuff away from you and onto the continent. We'll hold off on moving work away for 12 months - but beyond that a 20% tariff is something we won't swallow.

Wrightbus? They'd be screwed. Moy Park - the same. The dairy producers? Banjaxed. Terex-Finlay, up s!!t creek.

Basically any private company that exports is gonna become completely noncompetitive on the global market.


Boeing74741R wrote:
In any case, shouldn't Sinn Fein (and the DUP for that matter) be doing all they can to get the NI Assembly up and running? Two years without a functioning Assembly reflects badly on all involved.


Ach, they are both as useless as each other. Sinn Fein/IRA and DUP/UDA both want to keep tribal politics front and centre - as it guarantees their votes.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 3824
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:54 pm

Image

A101 wrote:
There is nothing to stop governments of either persuasion to flip-flop between being in the European union or not at each cycle of general elections

referendums are used as a tool to gather the directions for the sovereign to go on matters of the national importance. So I also gather if the Scottish referendum had won it would be okay for Parliament to quash the result, because you can’t trust the Scottish population to make such a important decision?

One of the most important tenants of democracy is being able to change your mind...
First to fly the 787-9

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Airontario, alfa164, EstherLouise, NIKV69 and 33 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos