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Richard28
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:26 pm

Aesma wrote:
I wonder if come March 29th we will even know if Brexit has happened ? If nothing is voted, nothing is declared on either side, is the UK automatically out ?


Yes.

No Deal is the default position if nothing happens from the UK side, i.e.:

- no ratifaction of WA
- no extension of article 50
- no revocation of Article 50
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:11 pm

Richard28 wrote:
In such circumstances a Brexit inquiry would no doubt take affect to learn about what went wrong and what can be learned going forward, perhaps as a start:

- more stringent controls to stop foreign influence, foreign money and dodgy analytics
- more bite for the electoral commission to clamp down on matters both during the campaign and after
- more education on what the EU is and how it functions on a democratic basis, particularly in the national curriculum and during European elections
- minimum thresholds for future referendums, especially where the consequences is a loss of rights and freedoms.
- referendum requirement for a white paper to be agreed upon and campaigned for during any subsequent vote (rather than the wishy washy vacuous conflicting promises from Leave side in 2016)

I'm sure there will be a lot more to learn....


But the root of the problem is that the UK has a Parliament which cannot decide on what it wants, only on what it doesn't want (and is very vocal about the latter). More education about the EU won't solve that. I don't think any Parliament has that much self reflection to accept that the way it acted was irresponsible and that it doesn't have the guts to do what it has to do and thus let the good of the country prevail above party politics. Especially given that it's not one particular party can be blamed. Even worse, it probably applies to the majority of the MPs.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:42 pm

LJ wrote:
Richard28 wrote:
In such circumstances a Brexit inquiry would no doubt take affect to learn about what went wrong and what can be learned going forward, perhaps as a start:

- more stringent controls to stop foreign influence, foreign money and dodgy analytics
- more bite for the electoral commission to clamp down on matters both during the campaign and after
- more education on what the EU is and how it functions on a democratic basis, particularly in the national curriculum and during European elections
- minimum thresholds for future referendums, especially where the consequences is a loss of rights and freedoms.
- referendum requirement for a white paper to be agreed upon and campaigned for during any subsequent vote (rather than the wishy washy vacuous conflicting promises from Leave side in 2016)

I'm sure there will be a lot more to learn....


But the root of the problem is that the UK has a Parliament which cannot decide on what it wants, only on what it doesn't want (and is very vocal about the latter). More education about the EU won't solve that. I don't think any Parliament has that much self reflection to accept that the way it acted was irresponsible and that it doesn't have the guts to do what it has to do and thus let the good of the country prevail above party politics. Especially given that it's not one particular party can be blamed. Even worse, it probably applies to the majority of the MPs.


Therefore, if in doubt: remain.

On topic, I wonder if today’s announcement is May realising that no deal is undesirable under any circumstance and is now steering Parliament towards either extending Article 50 in the hope another deal can be secured or to revoke Article 50? If the current deal and no deal are both rejected, Parliament must come to a consensus over what it really wants which I can’t see happening, so that only really leaves the remain option.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:59 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
On topic, I wonder if today’s announcement is May realising that no deal is undesirable under any circumstance and is now steering Parliament towards either extending Article 50 in the hope another deal can be secured or to revoke Article 50?.

After all these years, the three deals remain the same, Remain in the EU, Leave the EU or go the Norway route, it really is that simple.
 
marcelh
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:56 pm

par13del wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
On topic, I wonder if today’s announcement is May realising that no deal is undesirable under any circumstance and is now steering Parliament towards either extending Article 50 in the hope another deal can be secured or to revoke Article 50?.

After all these years, the three deals remain the same, Remain in the EU, Leave the EU or go the Norway route, it really is that simple.


Does the EU still want the UK to remain as if nothing happened? That remains to be seen...
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:57 pm

A Schrödinger Brexit ?
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:13 pm

marcelh wrote:
Does the EU still want the UK to remain as if nothing happened? That remains to be seen...

The UK has shown how totally dysfunctional they are, they are not a threat to be a successful country outside of the EU. The UK has been a thorn in the side of the EU which has
now been removed based on their Article 50 filing, not the vote, the EU is used to loosing votes.
The UK influence - if they ever had much - within the EU is greatly diminished, even as it relates to money, the EU will be getting billions from the UK whether they stay or leave, so that chip is gone. The EU sets the rules and as long as the UK remains in the EU they will be subject to EU laws, happy or sad makes no difference.
Even though they blasted the EU and played off their incompetence in governance by blaming the EU, the majority of them are still falling over themselves to stay under the influence of the EU, so really nothing for the EU to worry about.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:16 pm

And that why the hard brexit is the only option.
 
Bostrom
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:17 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
Theresa May now talking live in UK parliament: “I believe that if we have to, we will ultimately make a success of a no-deal”



(in 50 years time....maybe)

Loose - loose, make a choice for the level of un-comfort you would like to be in. Just a bit, or perhaps massive.


There's always article 49 of the Lisbon Treaty, they could use that…
 
Bostrom
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:20 pm

scbriml wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
If she does back a delay, May’s pro-Brexit colleagues will accuse her of betrayal and could even support a vote of no confidence in the government -- potentially triggering a general election.


It's extremely unlikely that MPs of a party in power would vote against it in a no confidence vote.


True, but who knows how many MPs the Tories + DUP will have when/if there is a no confidence vote?
 
A3801000
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:30 pm

par13del wrote:
Even though they blasted the EU and played off their incompetence in governance by blaming the EU, the majority of them are still falling over themselves to stay under the influence of the EU, so really nothing for the EU to worry about.


There is a lot to be worried about if the UK stays in the EU. The EU is facing Russia, china and now Trumps USA too. Lot of challenges.
If the UK stays in the EU, what kind of UK will that be? We need a strong a united Europe.
Not a country that has no idea what it wants, that is known to be on the brakes since decades and sees only one advantage in the EU and that is the economy. IF UK stays, the country will be badly damaged, cut in half. Do you honestly think the UK will be a good, productive, thriving player?
Right now, as bad as it is, the rest of the EU is far better off without the UK, letting them sort themselves out first and invite the UK to re-join once they understand and agree what EU means and are ready for it.
 
WIederling
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:15 pm

LJ wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
But then again, he seems older and a civil servant, so he probably will not feel the consequences personally.


Brexit is a blessing for most UK civil servants. If one thing is sure, Brexit means the UK will need more civil servants (more demand = higher pay) and "taking back control" means they get more power. As such he will probably feel the consequences (be it a positive one).


This is probably wrong.
EU never lead to reducing civil servants in any country.
more to the contrary.
merging both local stuff and EU stuff requires exponentially more personnel.
Read your Parkinson!
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:19 pm

A3801000 wrote:
There is a lot to be worried about if the UK stays in the EU. The EU is facing Russia, china and now Trumps USA too. Lot of challenges.


Up front the EU is facing the US as primary adversary. Only most haven't noticed yet.
But the US has been increasingly waging war on the EU for quite some time now.
Predominantly by putting the torch to the EU fringe.
With Trump this seems to be coming to a cusp and may actually be noticed
by the EU public.
Murphy is an optimist
 
wingman
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:29 pm

WIederling wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
There is a lot to be worried about if the UK stays in the EU. The EU is facing Russia, china and now Trumps USA too. Lot of challenges.


Up front the EU is facing the US as primary adversary. Only most haven't noticed yet.
But the US has been increasingly waging war on the EU for quite some time now.
Predominantly by putting the torch to the EU fringe.
With Trump this seems to be coming to a cusp and may actually be noticed
by the EU public.


Darwin Award, awarded 10 months early this year. A German accusing the US of tearing Europe apart. Good grief.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:45 pm

wingman wrote:
Darwin Award, awarded 10 months early this year.


to qualify for that award you need to a) die and b) do so childless...... have you been stalking him?

A German accusing the US of tearing Europe apart. Good grief.


Germany has never torn Europe apart, wanting to put the whole thing under new, and just one, management is about as unifying an idea as you can have.
The cooperative approach, without all the killing and destruction, has of course shown itself to be superior by a rather large margin.

And if you don´t think that a good punch of politicians in the US gets off on the Idea of the EU ending, then you haven´t been very attentive.

marcelh wrote:
par13del wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
On topic, I wonder if today’s announcement is May realising that no deal is undesirable under any circumstance and is now steering Parliament towards either extending Article 50 in the hope another deal can be secured or to revoke Article 50?.

After all these years, the three deals remain the same, Remain in the EU, Leave the EU or go the Norway route, it really is that simple.


Does the EU still want the UK to remain as if nothing happened? That remains to be seen...
.

There is no way to kick a member out, so what the EU wants is pretty much irrelevant.

seahawk wrote:
And that why the hard brexit is the only option.


Having just hopped of a plane in the UK i could not fail to notice how much "remain" stuff the people around me where reading on their smartphones and the papers they brought along.....

And boy would this trip, i have a couple of spare parts in my carry-on, be a nightmare in 5 weeks time.... if there is something i really don´t need, it is going through customs four freaking times in 24 hours with the necessary paperwork exceeding the total flight time ..... now i can just chuck them into my bag and go, in 5 weeks time i couldn´t. I didn´t know i would be flying at lunch time, i wonder if this kind of trip at such short notice will be possible then.

Sidenote, while everything i got from EZ said "operated by Easyjet UK", the bird was Austria registered....weird to see that reg on an UK airplane.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:56 am

A3801000 wrote:
There is a lot to be worried about if the UK stays in the EU. The EU is facing Russia, china and now Trumps USA too. Lot of challenges.
If the UK stays in the EU, what kind of UK will that be? We need a strong a united Europe.
Not a country that has no idea what it wants, that is known to be on the brakes since decades and sees only one advantage in the EU and that is the economy. IF UK stays, the country will be badly damaged, cut in half. Do you honestly think the UK will be a good, productive, thriving player?
Right now, as bad as it is, the rest of the EU is far better off without the UK, letting them sort themselves out first and invite the UK to re-join once they understand and agree what EU means and are ready for it.

In the EU the UK has to follow and play by the rules, whether they like it or not, ask all the other members who say they have problems with EU immigration rules for example, they are implementing while holding their nose, or those trying to bust their budget commitments, they are all playing by the rules, what makes you think the UK will be any different?
 
A3801000
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:23 am

The UK has many options to slow down and even veto EU decisions.
And with 'slowing down' they already have plenty of experience and it will only get worse if they stay.
 
A3801000
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:33 am

'For anyone rooting for a stronger EU, there should be nothing more terrifying than the U.K. overturning its Brexit decision and simply staying in.'
'The last thing any British leader would do in a house so divided is contemplate any deeper entanglement with Europe. The U.K. would slow down or block essential EU reforms, seek to extract special favors, and ruthlessly use any available alliance within the bloc to protect a narrowly defined national interest.'

https://www.politico.eu/article/why-the ... eferendum/

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 48721.html
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:51 pm

A3801000 wrote:
.. contemplate any deeper entanglement with Europe. The U.K. would slow down or block essential EU reforms, seek to extract special favors, and ruthlessly use any available alliance within the bloc to protect a narrowly defined national interest.'


What deeper entanglement would there be? EU Army for one I assume, but that's more of a replacement to NATO. I ask for others on the thread who may not know.

What are these 'essential EU reforms'? CAP is surely one of them. Brexiteers will say fish, unlimited immigration, burocrats but that's all nonsense.
 
Bostrom
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:12 am

The UK can ask for an extension, but it seems like they need a good reason for it for the EU27 to approve the extension. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... -desirable
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:21 pm

Bostrom wrote:
The UK can ask for an extension, but it seems like they need a good reason for it for the EU27 to approve the extension. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... -desirable


Of course, simply asking for more of the same should rightly be rejected by the EU. The UK would need a specific reason - a second referendum would likely be agreeable

It's no surprise that France and Spain are at the forefront of trying to leverage the situation.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:25 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
.. contemplate any deeper entanglement with Europe. The U.K. would slow down or block essential EU reforms, seek to extract special favors, and ruthlessly use any available alliance within the bloc to protect a narrowly defined national interest.'


What deeper entanglement would there be? EU Army for one I assume, but that's more of a replacement to NATO. I ask for others on the thread who may not know.

What are these 'essential EU reforms'? CAP is surely one of them. Brexiteers will say fish, unlimited immigration, burocrats but that's all nonsense.


Almost everyone would agree on that the EU should reform, the question is how.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:34 pm

A crack down on tax heavens in the EU should be a good start.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:17 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
.. contemplate any deeper entanglement with Europe. The U.K. would slow down or block essential EU reforms, seek to extract special favors, and ruthlessly use any available alliance within the bloc to protect a narrowly defined national interest.'


What deeper entanglement would there be? EU Army for one I assume, but that's more of a replacement to NATO. I ask for others on the thread who may not know.

What are these 'essential EU reforms'? CAP is surely one of them. Brexiteers will say fish, unlimited immigration, burocrats but that's all nonsense.


Almost everyone would agree on that the EU should reform, the question is how.

The EU has been in a constant reform process from the original inception of its first predecessor organisation.

But like everything else in the EU, all ongoing reforms need the members negotiating and ultimately agreeing on the common course. That is both the advantage and the challenge in any democratic organisation, and especially relative to its size and complexity the EU is actually remarkably nimble and adaptive.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:55 pm

Olddog wrote:
A Schrödinger Brexit ?


More like an "Inverted Heisenberg Brexit".. ;)
The more the British know what they don't want, the more uncertain the timing will be.
Of course, being the extremely chaotic process that Brexit is, the uncertainty in both the position of the government and the timing of the deal is so large it will be more than enough to satify > h/2. :D
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:17 pm

Olddog wrote:
A crack down on tax heavens in the EU should be a good start.


Agreed, some steps are being made towards that. But that also means handing over some jurisdiction of taxes regime from national to the European level. At the moment the EU has no jurisdiction of taxations (except import taxes of course).
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:54 pm

Yes but I read the other day that Merkel may agree to drop the unanimity rule for fiscal matters. With the UK out of the way, Junker soon retired, there is maybe a chance that we see some progress.
 
A3801000
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:54 pm

Olddog wrote:
A crack down on tax heavens in the EU should be a good start.


Brexit will take care of some of the biggest tax heavens within the EU.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:54 pm

A3801000 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
A crack down on tax heavens in the EU should be a good start.


Brexit will take care of some of the biggest tax heavens within the EU.


Which ones? Guernsey and Jersey aren't part of the EU and neither is Iles of Man.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:56 pm

So another minister gone: George Eustice, hard Brexiteer whom wants to keep his hands free for the upcoming votes.

So how many ministers has Theresa May lost in the past 2 years?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Bostrom
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:21 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Olddog wrote:
A Schrödinger Brexit ?


More like an "Inverted Heisenberg Brexit".. ;)
The more the British know what they don't want, the more uncertain the timing will be.
Of course, being the extremely chaotic process that Brexit is, the uncertainty in both the position of the government and the timing of the deal is so large it will be more than enough to satify > h/2. :D


:D :D :D
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:14 am

scbriml wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
The UK can ask for an extension, but it seems like they need a good reason for it for the EU27 to approve the extension. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... -desirable


Of course, simply asking for more of the same should rightly be rejected by the EU. The UK would need a specific reason - a second referendum would likely be agreeable

It's no surprise that France and Spain are at the forefront of trying to leverage the situation.


Another situation I can think of is if substantial progress has been made on an amended deal and more time is needed to close it off.

My gut instinct thinks the deal will once again be rejected in Parliament and a no deal Brexit will be rejected. I don't think enough ERG members will be spooked into voting for the deal this time round given this is the only form of Brexit they're likely to get and no deal will be roundly rejected. A good reason will need to be made to extend Article 50 which I can't see happening unless there's a seismic shift in what the government wants, so that only leaves one option which is to remain. I live in hope at least!

A3801000 wrote:
There is a lot to be worried about if the UK stays in the EU. The EU is facing Russia, china and now Trumps USA too. Lot of challenges.
If the UK stays in the EU, what kind of UK will that be? We need a strong a united Europe.
Not a country that has no idea what it wants, that is known to be on the brakes since decades and sees only one advantage in the EU and that is the economy. IF UK stays, the country will be badly damaged, cut in half. Do you honestly think the UK will be a good, productive, thriving player?
Right now, as bad as it is, the rest of the EU is far better off without the UK, letting them sort themselves out first and invite the UK to re-join once they understand and agree what EU means and are ready for it.


To be honest, I think the scenario of the UK (hopefully) staying in the EU is the least of the EU's worries at this time compared to other challenges.

A3801000 wrote:
The UK has many options to slow down and even veto EU decisions.
And with 'slowing down' they already have plenty of experience and it will only get worse if they stay.


Last time I checked, the UK didn't put the blockers on the EU Constitution (that was the referendums in France and the Netherlands) and the Lisbon Treaty was voted down by the Irish when it went to a referendum the first time round. That said, there was a bit of uproar domestically with the Lisbon Treaty as Labour were accused of breaking a 2005 general election manifesto pledge to hold a referendum and they tried to argue that the Lisbon Treaty was different to the EU Constitution that the manifesto pledge referred to.

I don't disagree that the UK could perhaps be a more active participant, but in my view I don't think your comments are helpful. To say that the EU will be better off without the UK is adding fuel to the fire of anti-EU sentiment in the UK and back up Brexiteer's claims the UK is better off.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:31 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
I don't disagree that the UK could perhaps be a more active participant, but in my view I don't think your comments are helpful. To say that the EU will be better off without the UK is adding fuel to the fire of anti-EU sentiment in the UK and back up Brexiteer's claims the UK is better off.


Does it matter? The UK is on the way out, and the EU and its members need to look after themselves.

That the UK has been a disruptive member at key points they didn't get their way in Brussels is a matter of public record. You can't be surprised that after decades of threatening to leave if you don't get special treatment a lot of people is secretly glad that you finally do.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:17 am

I think UK citizens will only warm up to the EU once outside of it.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
A3801000
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:23 am

'US takes tough line with UK on post-Brexit trade talks
Donald Trump’s trade representative to demand greater access for agricultural goods'

'...the US is looking for the UK to remove “unwarranted barriers” related to “sanitary and physiosanitary” standards...'

'The tough US demands are only an opening gambit, but they highlight the difficulties the UK could face in negotiating a trade deal with Washington, in contrast to claims made by leading Brexit proponents that it would be a smooth exercise.'

https://www.ft.com/content/09bfe7ca-3ba ... 7f526ca5d0
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:44 am

A3801000 wrote:
'US takes tough line with UK on post-Brexit trade talks
Donald Trump’s trade representative to demand greater access for agricultural goods'

'...the US is looking for the UK to remove “unwarranted barriers” related to “sanitary and physiosanitary” standards...'

'The tough US demands are only an opening gambit, but they highlight the difficulties the UK could face in negotiating a trade deal with Washington, in contrast to claims made by leading Brexit proponents that it would be a smooth exercise.'

https://www.ft.com/content/09bfe7ca-3ba ... 7f526ca5d0


This is nothing new. The position of the US has been known for a long time. I'm struggling to see the good news for UK consumers and producers.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
marcelh
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:45 am

Aesma wrote:
I think UK citizens will only warm up to the EU once outside of it.


:checkmark:
 
agill
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:02 pm

A3801000 wrote:
'US takes tough line with UK on post-Brexit trade talks
Donald Trump’s trade representative to demand greater access for agricultural goods'

'...the US is looking for the UK to remove “unwarranted barriers” related to “sanitary and physiosanitary” standards...'

'The tough US demands are only an opening gambit, but they highlight the difficulties the UK could face in negotiating a trade deal with Washington, in contrast to claims made by leading Brexit proponents that it would be a smooth exercise.'

https://www.ft.com/content/09bfe7ca-3ba ... 7f526ca5d0


Who’d a thunk it?...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:08 pm

marcelh wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I think UK citizens will only warm up to the EU once outside of it.


:checkmark:


Might, guess it will depend on how this is going to be portrayed and perceived for and by the British public.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:30 pm

JJJ wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
I don't disagree that the UK could perhaps be a more active participant, but in my view I don't think your comments are helpful. To say that the EU will be better off without the UK is adding fuel to the fire of anti-EU sentiment in the UK and back up Brexiteer's claims the UK is better off.


Does it matter? The UK is on the way out, and the EU and its members need to look after themselves.

That the UK has been a disruptive member at key points they didn't get their way in Brussels is a matter of public record. You can't be surprised that after decades of threatening to leave if you don't get special treatment a lot of people is secretly glad that you finally do.


Actually, I'd say it does matter. The UK is still a member state as of now and still has time over the next few weeks to revoke Article 50 (remember, the ECJ have said this can be done unilaterally without EU27 approval) which, as I speculated above, could be the only option left on the table if the WA is voted down again and Parliament vote down a no deal Brexit. There's also the small matter of finalising the WA and formally settling the future relationship.

I'm well aware of past form and I'm not for one minute expecting special treatment (why do you think there are so many references to people believing in unicorns?). Anything that Brexiteers have said in the past about leaving being a seamless process, holding all the cards etc. have already been debunked.

Finally, please remember I've been dead against Brexit all along. I don't always agree with the way the EU has done things, but I believe as a nation the UK is better off in than out and leaving means we can forget about having a say in reforming it.

Aesma wrote:
I think UK citizens will only warm up to the EU once outside of it.


Particularly once reality bites (i.e. things such as how long people can go on holiday to an EU nation for and without needing to go through an ESTA-style process) and people become better educated about how it works and what's involved.

scbriml wrote:
This is nothing new. The position of the US has been known for a long time. I'm struggling to see the good news for UK consumers and producers.


If it comes to the point where there's imported meat from the US on our shelves, I will certainly be going out of my way to avoid said meat and, where necessary, pay more for local meat.

It'll be interesting to see if the US demands something similar from the EU in the trade deal they want to make with them as well. I can see that one being a long drawn-out process, particularly with the collapse of the TTIP still fresh in the minds of many,
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:01 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
It'll be interesting to see if the US demands something similar from the EU in the trade deal they want to make with them as well. I can see that one being a long drawn-out process, particularly with the collapse of the TTIP still fresh in the minds of many,

The US side has always been demanding the same thing from the EU as well, the difference is just that the EU is big enough to withstand those demands, not least because it has that juicy Single Market the americans are really motivated to get easier access to.

The EU is at eye level with the USA in trade negotiations, contrary to the UK after Brexit which has comparatively little leverage and which will be desperate for a deal.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:03 pm

Dutchy wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I think UK citizens will only warm up to the EU once outside of it.


:checkmark:


Might, guess it will depend on how this is going to be portrayed and perceived for and by the British public.


Probably depends on whether a vacation to the Costa del Sol will be cheap or expensive ;)
 
marcelh
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:39 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
marcelh wrote:

:checkmark:


Might, guess it will depend on how this is going to be portrayed and perceived for and by the British public.


Probably depends on whether a vacation to the Costa del Sol will be cheap or expensive ;)


:rotfl:
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:02 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
If it comes to the point where there's imported meat from the US on our shelves, I will certainly be going out of my way to avoid said meat and, where necessary, pay more for local meat.


If you're in a position where you have the financial means to discriminate, then great. Unfortunately, many aren't. Any reduction in the purchase of UK foods will impact the producers as well (pushing up prices for those that can afford to buy local).
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10394
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:05 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
I don't disagree that the UK could perhaps be a more active participant, but in my view I don't think your comments are helpful. To say that the EU will be better off without the UK is adding fuel to the fire of anti-EU sentiment in the UK and back up Brexiteer's claims the UK is better off.


Does it matter? The UK is on the way out, and the EU and its members need to look after themselves.

That the UK has been a disruptive member at key points they didn't get their way in Brussels is a matter of public record. You can't be surprised that after decades of threatening to leave if you don't get special treatment a lot of people is secretly glad that you finally do.


Actually, I'd say it does matter. The UK is still a member state as of now and still has time over the next few weeks to revoke Article 50 (remember, the ECJ have said this can be done unilaterally without EU27 approval)


The EU could ramp up the pressure by changing the language of Art. 50 if they wanted to, since the UK doesnt get to vote at the moment, they couldn't veto that...

Nothing in the Lisbon treaty prevents them from changing how the EU rules work while being in an Art. 50 phase.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:20 pm

About US demands, those on food aren't new, but they also talk about "free flowing data", preventing currency manipulation, etc. Seems like the UK would sign its accession as the 51st state for real.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
LJ
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Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:45 pm

The UK government will pay Eurotunnel GBP 33 million so that Eurotunnel will settle a dispute to award the ferry contracts without asking Eurotunnel. Moreover, it seems that Seaborne Freight will not run its proposed service as it has no ship.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47414699
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2961
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:29 pm

Aesma wrote:
About US demands, those on food aren't new, but they also talk about "free flowing data", preventing currency manipulation, etc. Seems like the UK would sign its accession as the 51st state for real.


Forget for a minute the need for lower food standards to let chlorinated chicken and beef full of hormones in; forget for a minute the need for what the US calls 'procedural fairness' in bulk purchases of medicines in order to increase profit for US pharmaceutical companies and thus increase the cost for the NHS... the most sobering demand from the US in their official trade negotiating objectives for the upcoming negotiations with the UK is this one:

The US will only sign a comprehensive trade deal with the UK, if Britain’s guarantees it won't sign any deal with a non-market economy! :shock:
Read that again: 'Global Britain' may not sign a FTA with say the PR of China if it wants to have a transatlantic FTA...
So much for taking back control.
:white:

FWIW - The government’s own figures estimate that a US free trade agreement would bring a 0.3% boost to Britain's GDP - leaving the EU will however bring a hit of between 4% and 8% to it... I'm sure Dr. Fox is ready to sign on the dotted line of President's Trump FTA with Britain for such a massive Brexit dividend. :sarcastic:
 
WIederling
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:41 pm

A3801000 wrote:
Brexit will take care of some of the biggest tax heavens within the EU.


Luxemburg, Ireland ?
Murphy is an optimist
 
LJ
Posts: 4739
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:44 pm

WIederling wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
Brexit will take care of some of the biggest tax heavens within the EU.


Luxemburg, Ireland ?


The UK is/was very supportive towards all tax havens in the EU. When they're gone the balance shifts towards those who are against those tax havens.

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