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Dutchy
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Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:31 am

Merkel ally slams brakes on 80mph speed limit for autobahns

Angela Merkel’s coalition partners have broken ranks to endorse an experimental speed limit on Germany’s autobahns in an effort to limit pollution.

Germany is the only remaining large country where motorists can drive at any speed on extensive sections of rural motorway. There is, in principle, no national speed limit on the highways outside towns and cities, although local restrictions are enforced on more than half of the autobahn network and there is a “recommended” speed limit of 130km/h (80mph).



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/merk ... 8a24d5f1db

I am all for the environment protection, but this goes too far! I can take lowering the speed limit on Dutch autobahns to 100km/h (Holland is just too small to drive fast, too little to gain), but this??? I have only maxed out two cars on the autobahn and I haven't driven above 225km/h.
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seahawk
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:34 am

Long overdue and the majority supports it.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:42 am

I'm pretty sure I would find a highway with no speed limit a little terrifying. At the same time, you can get away with the same thing on poorly enforced rural segments of U.S. Highways. It's just that the risk of arrest for criminal speeding is there.
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B777LRF
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:55 am

Jouhou wrote:
I'm pretty sure I would find a highway with no speed limit a little terrifying. At the same time, you can get away with the same thing on poorly enforced rural segments of U.S. Highways. It's just that the risk of arrest for criminal speeding is there.


Difference between the US and Germany being, that German drivers actually know how to drive a car without being complete knobs. Driving at speed on a German autobahn is orders of magnitude safer than driving at 100 km/h on a US highway. Look up the stats if you're interested in the actual facts. Your feelz is just that, a personal thing that has no relevance on the actual safety of driving on an unlimited stretch of motorway.

I've maxed out every car I've owned in Germany, plus a few I've rented. Keep in mind that roughly 50% of the autobahn does have speed limits, and the remainder is often so congested that going fast is more theory than practically possible. But there are stretches of road and times of day where the traffic is light and you can floor it. Being a petrolhead par excellance, it's something I've always enjoyed when opportunity presented itself.

And let me say this once again: It's much safer doing 250 km/h on a German autobahn than 100 km/h on a US highway.

It's all a symbolic political move by leaf munching, sandal wearing, millennials who don't even have a drivers license.
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Jouhou
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:04 am

B777LRF wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
I'm pretty sure I would find a highway with no speed limit a little terrifying. At the same time, you can get away with the same thing on poorly enforced rural segments of U.S. Highways. It's just that the risk of arrest for criminal speeding is there.


Difference between the US and Germany being, that German drivers actually know how to drive a car without being complete knobs. Driving at speed on a German autobahn is orders of magnitude safer than driving at 100 km/h on a US highway. Look up the stats if you're interested in the actual facts. Your feelz is just that, a personal thing that has no relevance on the actual safety of driving on an unlimited stretch of motorway.

I've maxed out every car I've owned in Germany, plus a few I've rented. Keep in mind that roughly 50% of the autobahn does have speed limits, and the remainder is often so congested that going fast is more theory than practically possible. But there are stretches of road and times of day where the traffic is light and you can floor it. Being a petrolhead par excellance, it's something I've always enjoyed when opportunity presented itself.

And let me say this once again: It's much safer doing 250 km/h on a German autobahn than 100 km/h on a US highway.

It's all a symbolic political move by leaf munching, sandal wearing, millennials who don't even have a drivers license.


Leaf munching? But shouldn't older adults be eating their salads too? Also sandals are totally out of style in the US. Especially when it's 0°F right now. Our Millennials hate frostbitten toes.

Also not all European drivers are better at driving. The Portuguese terrified me.
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tommy1808
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:39 am

seahawk wrote:
Long overdue and the majority supports it.


... until they are actually driving in one. "Playstreets" also always have the support of almost every one living there. About two weeks later you can drive your neighbours nuts by actually driving pedestrian speed....

Jouhou wrote:
I'm pretty sure I would find a highway with no speed limit a little terrifying. At the same time, you can get away with the same thing on poorly enforced rural segments of U.S. Highways. It's just that the risk of arrest for criminal speeding is there.


One gets used to 125+mph rather quickly...

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Jouhou
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:49 am

tommy1808 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Long overdue and the majority supports it.


... until they are actually driving in one. "Playstreets" also always have the support of almost every one living there. About two weeks later you can drive your neighbours nuts by actually driving pedestrian speed....

Jouhou wrote:
I'm pretty sure I would find a highway with no speed limit a little terrifying. At the same time, you can get away with the same thing on poorly enforced rural segments of U.S. Highways. It's just that the risk of arrest for criminal speeding is there.


One gets used to 125+mph rather quickly...

Best regards
Thomas


Do you have wind like we do? Having gone that speed on our rural highways (and I'm assuming you politely converted to mph and that's not a mistake) I could really feel every gust and shift in wind. I had to stay very alert at that speed.

Edit: got curious about my somewhat rhetorical question and looked it up. https://globalwindatlas.info

Yes Germany looks pretty similar in windy-ness.
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tommy1808
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:43 am

Jouhou wrote:
Yes Germany looks pretty similar in windy-ness.


Yup... I still would suspect we have less wide open areas and more "windcatchers" next to streets.
But steering angle on a bridge just to go in a straight line can be quote surprising...

and I'm assuming you politely converted to mph and that's not a mistake


Yup... also doesn't look as crazy as 200+ :D

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Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Channex757
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:56 am

80mph isn't a bad compromise. In fact I support lifting the UK limit to 80mph from 70.

Cars now seem to have six speed gearboxes almost by default. 70mph suits a five speed box. 80mph would therefore mean engines running at optimum RPM rather than labouring at a lower speed.

My only worry is that a lot of unrestricted motorways in Germany are pretty narrow. They really need to be three lanes wide.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:26 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Do you have wind like we do? Having gone that speed on our rural highways (and I'm assuming you politely converted to mph and that's not a mistake) I could really feel every gust and shift in wind. I had to stay very alert at that speed.


Perhaps that's why it is less dangerous to drive 200km/h then 80km/h, 100km/h, 120km/h, 130km/h, those are all the different speed limits on Dutch highways, I almost doze off with 100-130km/h, while I am alert at 150km/h plus. On the other hand, speed camera's are plentiful here, if you drive from east to west - A12 for locals - the speed limit changes at least ten times for a 120km drive, absolutely crazy, so we need to stay alert since there are four-speed camera systems which measure an average speed. That's why I am fine to have the 100km/h speed limit. I was driving in Canada, from Montreal to Quebec city, a bit of a drive, with observing the 100km/h speed limit and it was quite relaxing, instead of pushing for the speed limit on the crowded Dutch highways.
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tommy1808
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:51 pm

Channex757 wrote:
80mph isn't a bad compromise..


how is that a compromise? One side wants an 80 miles speed limit and gets it?

Right now 80 miles is the suggested speed. If you drive faster, you already risk liability. Why add the threat of a ticket to that? Most times you can not even drive that, on ~half the highways you already have a speed limit. Never change a running system.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Okie
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:
On the other hand, speed camera's are plentiful here, if you drive from east to west - A12 for locals - the speed limit changes at least ten times for a 120km drive, absolutely crazy, so we need to stay alert since there are four-speed camera systems which measure an average speed.


Speed Camera's and Stop Light Camera's have 3 Million pounds of copper in them. Spread the Word. :biggrin:

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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:17 pm

I've driven no limits in Germany my fast italian car
but it was not a fast german car
so it was broken very soon after
anyway autobahns are made very well (as anything that is made in Germany btw)
they're large, with great visibility, and people has no shame driving on the right lane, so you don't find the Oma in her VW Polo driving at 90 kph in the fast track, so it's quite safe too
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N14AZ
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:37 pm

FatCat wrote:
I've driven no limits in Germany my fast italian car
but it was not a fast german car
so it was broken very soon after

Wow, you are a true poet ;-)

FatCat wrote:
anyway autobahns are made very well (as anything that is made in Germany btw)

I am very sorry but I cannot agree. What you describe is what people think about Germany. Unfortunately it’s not true. Infrastructure needs maintenance and rehabilitation or replacements. For decades the German authorities have neglected their responsibility to maintain, rehabilitate or to replace streets, bridges and railway infrastructure. We (people how have to take the train regularly, people who live in rural areas where bridges get blocked) suffer a lot under this mismanagement. It will take years if not decades until it will become better.
 
Zeppi
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:42 pm

Jouhou wrote:
I'm pretty sure I would find a highway with no speed limit a little terrifying.

It's all relative. I already feel terrified driving 80mph in a US car on a US highway, yet I feel perfectly safe driving my 7-series BMW at 300km/h on the autobahn A8 between Stuttgart and Munich. Ever heard of lane discipline or well maintained roads?

Dutchy wrote:
Perhaps that's why it is less dangerous to drive 200km/h then 80km/h, 100km/h, 120km/h, 130km/h, those are all the different speed limits on Dutch highways, I almost doze off with 100-130km/h, while I am alert at 150km/h plus.

I feel exactly the same way. Driving in Austria and Switzerland regularly, it's really hard for me to stay focused in this monotony and start doing other stuff like fiddling around with the HiFi or Nav. When driving fast I actually focus what I'm supposed to be focusing on: Driving!

I'm totally against a general speed limit, but what I really like and what is a great safety feature are variable speed limits. They look like this in Germany:

Image


What they do is dynamically adapt to the current traffic and weather situation. They also warn of imminent dangers like the end of a traffic jam, or weather hazards like sudden fog or snow.
So instead of a general speed limit, I'd like to see those on all autobahns across germany. Of course also with speed cameras, because despite driving discipline being very good here in general, you do get the occasional moron who thinks it's a good idea to blast through a construction site with 150km/h+...

@N14AZ, do you happen to live in NRW? :roll:
 
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:53 pm

Zeppi wrote:
I'm totally against a general speed limit, but what I really like and what is a great safety feature are variable speed limits. They look like this in Germany:

When I was young I thought that’s what you call an intelligent system. Unfortunately, in the region where I live they are now operated by lawyers. 80 km/h at night, dry weather conditions, it’s lovely. You can literally hear the staff talking in the control center “yeah, I know, perfect weather conditions. But I cannot exclude the possibility of a single of water on the highway and before I get sued I will switch it to 80 km/h”

German CYA at its best...
Last edited by N14AZ on Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:56 pm

Zeppi wrote:
@N14AZ, do you happen to live in NRW? :roll:

No, I live in Lower Saxonia and work in Frankfurt, commuting every day. But I guess it's all over Germany.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:01 pm

I'll have to see if I can find the study again but this topic was discussed/debated a few years ago. (maybe more) The study i'm referring to found that multiple vehicle accidents/incidents occurred largely due to congestion issues, not speed. The vast majority happening in urban centers during peak hours. Once you account for urban centers where speed limits are already low and tightly controlled (Some even utilizing variable speed limits) you find that multiple vehicle incidents drops dramatically and you're left with single vehicle incidents that are almost entirely due to inattentiveness or drowsiness (basically falling asleep at the wheel). There are several places where 75 and even 80mph is allowed in the US. I find it not different than driving at 60mph honestly.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:17 pm

Just to be clear, we're talking about left wing "allies" of Merkel.

Also, the issue with doing that for environmental reasons, is that Tesla owners (and future Porsche Taycan owners) could say they're not polluting and should be allowed to continue to drive fast.

Then again Germany has those coal fired power plants.

Then again they could be charging their cars with their own solar panels.

It's tricky.
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Zeppi
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:33 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Unfortunately, in the region where I live they are now operated by lawyers

Oh wow, well that really sucks. Luckily down south they are operated as intended. Most of the time I drive they're off actually, and when they're on then rightly so.

N14AZ wrote:
No, I live in Lower Saxonia and work in Frankfurt, commuting every day. But I guess it's all over Germany.

Interesting, I hardly ever drive up north, only sometimes to Hannover straight up the A7, and that's ok actually. Some works on bridges here and there and that's about it. Not many speed limits either.
The A8 is brand spanking new, the last bit between Geislingen and Kirchheim-Teck is just getting finished. It's lovely, like a race track really. Even has porous asphalt, so even in quite strong rain there's no standing water on the surface. I quite routinely manage to drive the 200km to MUC in one hour. By train the same trip takes more than three...
 
rivetremover
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:36 pm

Imagine if this argument were happening in the USA....the same Germans would be talking about how wasteful and arrogant American drivers were wanting to drive recklessly "for freedom and muh car at the expense of the environment."
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:48 pm

I enjoy doing 180 km/h as much as the next guy. Gets you places much faster and is great fun. But, it uses a ton of fuel doing it all the time. Standard of driving is infinitely better than the UK motorways but there are still plenty of idiots who do 220-230 when there is too much traffic. And when it gets wet most of the Autobahns don't drain well so you can't see anything. At least in the UK you have cats eyes.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:55 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
I enjoy doing 180 km/h as much as the next guy. Gets you places much faster and is great fun. But, it uses a ton of fuel doing it all the time. Standard of driving is infinitely better than the UK motorways but there are still plenty of idiots who do 220-230 when there is too much traffic. And when it gets wet most of the Autobahns don't drain well so you can't see anything. At least in the UK you have cats eyes.


Cats eyes? Are those little reflectors on the ground?

Seattle has those, but that's because they don't need snow plows in general. Makes travel a nightmare on the days it actually does get cold enough to bring in snow.
 
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:05 pm

rivetremover wrote:
Imagine if this argument were happening in the USA....the same Germans would be talking about how wasteful and arrogant American drivers were wanting to drive recklessly "for freedom and muh car at the expense of the environment."


How do you know that it would be "the same Germans"? Have you done a survey?

For me, the speed limit can go. I use my car as little as possible, and when I'm on the Autobahn, I blend in at appr. 140 kph. Nowadays I enjoy more the relaxed way of driving.

Of course there are still some spots where you feel the need for speed. Some years ago, I used to drive the A3 between Cologne and Frankfurt quite often. Heading south, some 5 km south of Limburg there's a depression / right curve combination. Miraculously, this spot never had a speed limit (is there one now?). I used to throttle up on the straight section leading to the combination and then get through it with some 200 kph - of course only if traffic allowed it (mostly at night).

This is one of those spots where you seperate the men from the boys.
Last edited by BartSimpson on Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:12 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Cats eyes? Are those little reflectors on the ground?

Seattle has those, but that's because they don't need snow plows in general. Makes travel a nightmare on the days it actually does get cold enough to bring in snow.


Yep. Great for low visibility. They have re-laid loads on the M25 around London. If you look in the rear view mirror what you can see behind you is a different colour to those in front, and the hard shoulder line is a different colour to the main lanes. Ok it's a tiny bit of a bump if you don't time it right when you change lanes, but you can time it and I think the benefits are huge.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:26 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Cats eyes? Are those little reflectors on the ground?

Seattle has those, but that's because they don't need snow plows in general. Makes travel a nightmare on the days it actually does get cold enough to bring in snow.


Yep. Great for low visibility. They have re-laid loads on the M25 around London. If you look in the rear view mirror what you can see behind you is a different colour to those in front, and the hard shoulder line is a different colour to the main lanes. Ok it's a tiny bit of a bump if you don't time it right when you change lanes, but you can time it and I think the benefits are huge.


I kind of found the bumps to be a bit of a lane change notifier if you weren't exactly paying attention too ;) kind of a dual purpose if you ask me!
 
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:30 pm

Jouhou wrote:
I'm pretty sure I would find a highway with no speed limit a little terrifying. At the same time, you can get away with the same thing on poorly enforced rural segments of U.S. Highways. It's just that the risk of arrest for criminal speeding is there.


Not if you know how to drive on it and it is properly maintained. I drove 180km/h in Germany and had no fear of incident because the left lane is for passing and all trucks are parked in the right lane going 80km/h

There is no speed limit in Rural areas between cities, once you get into an Urban centre then the limit is about the same as the most other areas which is 80 to 100 km/h and even then it is posted as 130 km/h but speeding is not enforced. Driving like a moron is still enforced.
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tommy1808
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:51 pm

rivetremover wrote:
Imagine if this argument were happening in the USA....the same Germans would be talking about how wasteful and arrogant American drivers were wanting to drive recklessly "for freedom and muh car at the expense of the environment."


Nah.... speed above 130km/h are so rare that even a week with lots of highway driving pretty much doesn´t budge my average speed, or my average fuel consumption... and i quite regulary do 1000km in a day on those trips.... mostly to and back from my favorite key Account in Nürnberg, pretty much exactly the other side of Germany.
The effect is simply neglectable and would remain the same regardless of country.

If they want to do something about the enviroment they should make SUVs and other heavy cars more expensive to operate, not take the fun out of driving.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:53 pm

Jouhou wrote:
I'm pretty sure I would find a highway with no speed limit a little terrifying. At the same time, you can get away with the same thing on poorly enforced rural segments of U.S. Highways. It's just that the risk of arrest for criminal speeding is there.


How would you explain the average speeds in Connecticut and Massachusetts being around 80mph when the speed limits are 65 or, gasp, 55 mph. I just went down to southern Connecticut on the Merritt/ Wilbur Cross, everyone doing 80 and being passed by some.

German, Europeans in general, drive with much greater discipline than us Yanks. Follow the signs, stay right (or left) and watch their surrounding traffic. German cars drive better as they get faster.

GF
 
FatCat
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:05 pm

N14AZ wrote:
FatCat wrote:
I've driven no limits in Germany my fast italian car
but it was not a fast german car
so it was broken very soon after

Wow, you are a true poet ;-)

FatCat wrote:
anyway autobahns are made very well (as anything that is made in Germany btw)

I am very sorry but I cannot agree. What you describe is what people think about Germany. Unfortunately it’s not true. Infrastructure needs maintenance and rehabilitation or replacements. For decades the German authorities have neglected their responsibility to maintain, rehabilitate or to replace streets, bridges and railway infrastructure. We (people how have to take the train regularly, people who live in rural areas where bridges get blocked) suffer a lot under this mismanagement. It will take years if not decades until it will become better.

Oh nein I know very well how the streets are in Germany.
Now I'm mostly in Holland for work but until mid 2018 I was at least one week / month in Frankfurt / Offenbach / Neu Isenburg ... and from time to time, I came up there by car also.
You'll have to see our highways to fully understand the word "neglected" :-D
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:08 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
Driving like a moron is still enforced.


And that is the most important statement in this whole topic. Setting a speed limit on motorways is only good for one thing - collecting extra taxes and calling them fines. Sad example of this is Ontario. The criminally low speed limit is basically the only rule enforced on the 400 series highways. And they look like a zoo.
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tommy1808
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:11 pm

FatCat wrote:
You'll have to see our highways to fully understand the word "neglected" :-D


come on.. the A37 is nice.
The 6-8 hour trip Rotterdam, where i used to work for a while, to German border trip on a Friday afternoon however sucked big time. That is 150 miles....

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Thomas
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Jouhou
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:20 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
I'm pretty sure I would find a highway with no speed limit a little terrifying. At the same time, you can get away with the same thing on poorly enforced rural segments of U.S. Highways. It's just that the risk of arrest for criminal speeding is there.


How would you explain the average speeds in Connecticut and Massachusetts being around 80mph when the speed limits are 65 or, gasp, 55 mph. I just went down to southern Connecticut on the Merritt/ Wilbur Cross, everyone doing 80 and being passed by some.

German, Europeans in general, drive with much greater discipline than us Yanks. Follow the signs, stay right (or left) and watch their surrounding traffic. German cars drive better as they get faster.

GF


I think criminal speeding is something like over 25 mph above the limit, isn't it?
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Dutchy
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:43 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

come on.. the A37 is nice.
The 6-8 hour trip Rotterdam, where i used to work for a while, to German border trip on a Friday afternoon however sucked big time. That is 150 miles....

best reagards
Thomas


Ah yes, those lazy Friday afternoon traffic, I can never understand where that traffic comes from, Friday mornings it is the easiest way to navigate the Dutch roads, the lightest traffic of the week, however after 4 o'clock stay away from the highways. That being said, 6 to 8 hours to navigate 80 - 85 miles (A15 - Rotterdam - Kleve: 135km) that seems to be a bit extreme, I could do that distance in 6 hours with my city bike :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:43 pm

Aesma wrote:
Just to be clear, we're talking about left wing "allies" of Merkel.

Also, the issue with doing that for environmental reasons, is that Tesla owners (and future Porsche Taycan owners) could say they're not polluting and should be allowed to continue to drive fast.


Try doing a max speed run in a Tesla and see how long it takes for the battery to overheat and the car to go into limp mode. They are not made for sustained high speed driving.
 
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:51 pm

Jouhou wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
I'm pretty sure I would find a highway with no speed limit a little terrifying. At the same time, you can get away with the same thing on poorly enforced rural segments of U.S. Highways. It's just that the risk of arrest for criminal speeding is there.


How would you explain the average speeds in Connecticut and Massachusetts being around 80mph when the speed limits are 65 or, gasp, 55 mph. I just went down to southern Connecticut on the Merritt/ Wilbur Cross, everyone doing 80 and being passed by some.

German, Europeans in general, drive with much greater discipline than us Yanks. Follow the signs, stay right (or left) and watch their surrounding traffic. German cars drive better as they get faster.

GF


I think criminal speeding is something like over 25 mph above the limit, isn't it?


Depends on the state, usually comes under “reckless driving” misdemeanor. In CT, it’s 85 mph as prima facia case for reckless operation. Other states vary widely from no threshold to 35 mph over

GF
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12856
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:10 pm

Aesma wrote:
Just to be clear, we're talking about left wing "allies" of Merkel.

Also, the issue with doing that for environmental reasons, is that Tesla owners (and future Porsche Taycan owners) could say they're not polluting and should be allowed to continue to drive fast.


Try doing a max speed run in a Tesla and see how long it takes for the battery to overheat and the car to go into limp mode. They are not made for sustained high speed driving.
 
mham001
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:24 pm

Kiwirob wrote:

Try doing a max speed run in a Tesla and see how long it takes for the battery to overheat and the car to go into limp mode. They are not made for sustained high speed driving.


No, they are not. maybe because the only place you can do that is on race tracks and a few roads in Germany. That is old news. The Tesla "limp mode" is still 160 Kw and the Model 3 has largely overcome all of that. This later Model S still did Nurinburg in 9:01. https://www.motorauthority.com/news/109 ... -901-video I suppose Germany is doing Tesla a favor in that people will have one less nitpick.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:52 pm

I believe all commercial vehicles in the EU are limited to 90 Kmh (about 56 MPH) on motorways/autobahns. Having so some vehicles stuck to a max of 90 Kmh while cars can go 120 Kmh or more, such speed differences can set up dangerous conditions. In the USA, most motorways/interstates have 60-65 MPH (100-105 Kmh) for all vehicles, with many fleet commercial vehicles speed governed by their owners at 62-68 MPH mainly for fuel saving and safety.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12856
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:14 pm

mham001 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Try doing a max speed run in a Tesla and see how long it takes for the battery to overheat and the car to go into limp mode. They are not made for sustained high speed driving.


No, they are not. maybe because the only place you can do that is on race tracks and a few roads in Germany. That is old news. The Tesla "limp mode" is still 160 Kw and the Model 3 has largely overcome all of that. This later Model S still did Nurinburg in 9:01. https://www.motorauthority.com/news/109 ... -901-video I suppose Germany is doing Tesla a favor in that people will have one less nitpick.


I’ve been in a model S on an autobahn in germany when it went into limp mode. One of my companies managers in Germany has one.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6224
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:18 pm

BartSimpson wrote:
rivetremover wrote:
Imagine if this argument were happening in the USA....the same Germans would be talking about how wasteful and arrogant American drivers were wanting to drive recklessly "for freedom and muh car at the expense of the environment."


How do you know that it would be "the same Germans"? Have you done a survey?

This very forum is a fine example...
 
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Channex757
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
80mph isn't a bad compromise..


how is that a compromise? One side wants an 80 miles speed limit and gets it?

Right now 80 miles is the suggested speed. If you drive faster, you already risk liability. Why add the threat of a ticket to that? Most times you can not even drive that, on ~half the highways you already have a speed limit. Never change a running system.

best regards
Thomas

It is a compromise. You might not remember it, but in the USA of the late 70s they had the awful Drive 55 speed limit imposed due to environmental and fuel consumption reasons. That figure of 55 is the Holy Grail for the enviro brigades as it's the most efficient speed for four speed gearbox cars.

Aiming for 80 is a compromise all right. It's a figure which will be what they think can be successfully campaigned for and command a majority where it counts.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:53 am

ltbewr wrote:
I believe all commercial vehicles in the EU are limited to 90 Kmh (about 56 MPH) on motorways/autobahns. Having so some vehicles stuck to a max of 90 Kmh while cars can go 120 Kmh or more, such speed differences can set up dangerous conditions. In the USA, most motorways/interstates have 60-65 MPH (100-105 Kmh) for all vehicles, with many fleet commercial vehicles speed governed by their owners at 62-68 MPH mainly for fuel saving and safety.


You know, the speed difference between trucks and cars may indeed create some dangerous conditions. However, there is this thing in Europe that can significantly decrease the risk. It's something that's absolutely unknown in North America. It is called lane discipline
310, 319, 320, 321, 321N, 332, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, C402, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
tommy1808
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:37 am

Channex757 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
80mph isn't a bad compromise..


how is that a compromise? One side wants an 80 miles speed limit and gets it?

Right now 80 miles is the suggested speed. If you drive faster, you already risk liability. Why add the threat of a ticket to that? Most times you can not even drive that, on ~half the highways you already have a speed limit. Never change a running system.

best regards
Thomas

It is a compromise. You might not remember it, but in the USA of the late 70s they had the awful Drive 55 speed limit imposed due to environmental and fuel consumption reasons. That figure of 55 is the Holy Grail for the enviro brigades as it's the most efficient speed for four speed gearbox cars.


So what? We had car free Sunday´s around the time to cut fuel consumption. ..... so i guess other countries doing that today would be a compromise for us getting a highway speed limit.... wait, what?

When one sides argues for keeping the status quo, and the other side wants 75 or 80 miles an hour, 80 miles an hour is not a compromise. It is a dictate. And one for no good reason on top of that.

The estimate is that 80 people die every year due to excessive speed on highways, that is of course terrible, but about 600 people die every die in traffic outside of villages/cites due to excessive speed (w/o highways). On streets that all have speed limits with no exceptions. Per kilometer hauling capacity wise the Autobahn is already the safest street to drive on, despite not having speed limits on about half the network. One third of all travel is on highways, ~10% of all victims are on them. The part of the highway system that has a speed limit is not safer than the rest at all, highways build to similar standard outside of Germany with speed limit are not saver either. Austrian Highways for example, all with speed limit, are 1.5 times more dangerous than German ones. Varying speeds keeps you more alert.
So what is there to fix and what makes you think that those people, that go so well beyond 130km/h that they end up killing, would all of a sudden get serious and abide it?

On normal cross country streets a speed limit makes sense, because there is no single rule set that governs what speeds they are good for. Highways are different in that regard. There are no sudden sharp corners, there are no unexpected side roads leading onto it ....

So... CO2. With a general 120kph speed limit would reduce fuel consumption by a whooping 2%, if everyone sticks to it which ain´t going to happen, and reduce total CO2 emissions by 0.3%. If you want to reduce CO2 emissions on highway, make fuel more expensive. A 10% hike in prices has twice (!) the effect.

Aiming for 80 is a compromise all right. It's a figure which will be what they think can be successfully campaigned for and command a majority where it counts.


I have enough miles on US highways under my belt to know that no one give a hoot about the speed limit on those. Heck, sticking to the speed limit there you get passed by trucks.....
You only get a majority for it here if you include everyone, that means lots of people that don´t drive at all or rarely ever on highways. If it ain´t broke, don´t fix it.

WildcatYXU wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
I believe all commercial vehicles in the EU are limited to 90 Kmh (about 56 MPH) on motorways/autobahns. Having so some vehicles stuck to a max of 90 Kmh while cars can go 120 Kmh or more, such speed differences can set up dangerous conditions. In the USA, most motorways/interstates have 60-65 MPH (100-105 Kmh) for all vehicles, with many fleet commercial vehicles speed governed by their owners at 62-68 MPH mainly for fuel saving and safety.


You know, the speed difference between trucks and cars may indeed create some dangerous conditions. However, there is this thing in Europe that can significantly decrease the risk. It's something that's absolutely unknown in North America. It is called lane discipline


:checkmark:
Trucks stay on the right, when lots of them are about, no one gets to drive 80 anyways.....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12888
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:42 am

Dutchy wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

come on.. the A37 is nice.
The 6-8 hour trip Rotterdam, where i used to work for a while, to German border trip on a Friday afternoon however sucked big time. That is 150 miles....

best reagards
Thomas


Ah yes, those lazy Friday afternoon traffic, I can never understand where that traffic comes from, Friday mornings it is the easiest way to navigate the Dutch roads, the lightest traffic of the week, however after 4 o'clock stay away from the highways. That being said, 6 to 8 hours to navigate 80 - 85 miles (A15 - Rotterdam - Kleve: 135km) that seems to be a bit extreme, I could do that distance in 6 hours with my city bike :lol:


For me it was A12, A28 & A37 .... but i guess you can imagine me coursing behind the wheel..... lol.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Zeppi
Posts: 106
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:14 am

Reinhardt wrote:
But, it uses a ton of fuel doing it all the time.


Again, depends on the car, engine, transmission. I need 6.5l/100km @ 120km/h, 9l/100km @200km/h, diesel that is, not too shabby. Now with the downsizing hype that has been going on in the last few years, and even larger cars getting those small displacement lawnmower engines installed, not the case any more. A small petrol engine may only use 5l/100km in city traffic going no more than 90km/h, but as soon as you go on the autobahn and floor it the fuel drains like there's no tomorrow. Just recently I drove a 320i while mine was in the workshop, it had no torque to speak of and on a short 80km trip the average consumption was 12.5l/100km.
What's really sad is that you can't even order "proper" engines any more, the petrol V12 in the 7-series expired last year, the diesel V8 a couple of years ago. Instead you now even get 3 cylinder engines with turbos, which break after 60.000km because they run at almost max load all the time. The electric hype is also just that, it makes no sense. Electric vehicles are great for short trips/city driving, no question about it, we use one too for that purpose. But anything beyond 100km one way and they become totally impractical. Their total ecologic footprint is nowhere near as good as the greens love to suggest. Until they energetically amortize you have to drive them for 180.000-220.000km, by which time they most likely already need a new battery and you can start counting again.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:23 am

I like the term "leafmunchers". A good Translation would be "Salatblattverwerter".

The older I get the more lucky I feel that I picked the right time Slot to live in a wonderful Country where People could enjoy themselves and has a lot of personal freedom. The leafmunchers cannot accept that People are individuals and that individuals are free to live their own lives and eat meat when they like it and how much and drive on the Autobahn their individual Speed.

We do that with great responsibility, as Thomas said 130 kmh is the suggested Speed Limit and if you get involved in an accident and the Investigation finds that you drove faster, you will face the consequences. But in order to achieve an average Speed of 130 km(h you must be able to drive anything between 130 and whatever your car can perform. I live in the Rhein/Main area for 40 years and drover the 500 km between my home and the families domicile several 100 times. The distance translates roughly 130 km/h and very seldom it could be done in 3 1/2 hours. If 130 becomes mandatory, such an average will no longer be possible. and Autobahns will become even more congested- The Transport Minister will have to fight an uphill battle. And since the leafmunchers Green Party will likely be part of a future coalition a "tempo 130" might become reality.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:44 am

Zeppi wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
No, I live in Lower Saxonia and work in Frankfurt, commuting every day. But I guess it's all over Germany.

Interesting, I hardly ever drive up north, only sometimes to Hannover straight up the A7, and that's ok actually. Some works on bridges here and there and that's about it. Not many speed limits either.

I was referring to the A2 between Dortmund and Berlin and the section between Hanover and Braunschweig in particular. There even seems to be a difference between the section speed control in the Hanover area and the one close to Braunschweig. I often think if it’s related to the ruling political party, I don’t know...
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:55 am

Reinhardt wrote:
I enjoy doing 180 km/h as much as the next guy. Gets you places much faster and is great fun. But, it uses a ton of fuel doing it all the time.

Just out of curiosity - and I don’t want to be indiscreet - but do you have to pay fuel by yourself or does your company pay?

I used to drive the same way you do when I had a company car. Once I had changed to another organization and had to pay for fuel by myself my driving style changed almost immediately ... ;-)
 
PirxPilot
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Re: Speedlimit on the autobahn?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:02 am

As a fellow German I want to weigh in on the discussion. I am very much in favor of a general speed limit on the Autobahn, and I think 130kph is just right.

There is not the one good reason for it, but I think the whole package makes a very compelling case. It reduces exhaust emissions, it reduced fuel consumption, it reduces noise, it reduces the risk of traffic jams and "interesting" situations due to differential speeds. I drive regularly on the A5, A67, A60 and A3 (living south of Frankfurt). One of the biggest gripes I have is with people driving fast because they think it is their right regardless of the surrounding traffic situation. If there is a truck (80kph) in the right lane and I approach it with 120 or 130kph I need to overtake it to keep my momentum. If all the cars would go around 130, no problem. However there is always that one guy doing 180 or more that I need to let pass. So I need to slow down and only then can change lanes. So unnecessary braking and accelerating. And that same guy needs brake hard at the next truck because someone else was not as considerate as I was. Again, massive waste. Plus all that braking escalates quickly into stop and go traffic patterns. There are nice simulations, or you can just drive with me on the A60 late afternoons to see that.

It reduces the individual risk of accidents and it reduces the severity of accidents. Whoever denies that has no grip on physics or human factors. Staying more focused because of driving faster?! Yeah, sure. Tell that to a cognitive psychologist. Probably those people are also the ones that do not get distracted by texting while driving of that can "feel" they are still sober enough to drive.

I am not denying that there are capable, considerate fast-drivers out there that only exercise that option when they think it is ok to do so. But... they sure are in the minority. And: why is it up to them to make that risk assessment? We are talking about public roads here. Their "freedom" only goes so far until it infringes on mine or that of the society in general.

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