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L410Turbolet
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:29 pm

PPVRA wrote:

As horrible as this sound, the best case scenario here is to let Venezuela play out with minimal intervention. Venezuela needs to be an example to the rest of Latin America, but also the world, that these experiments fail and fail horribly on their own.

Examples do not work, I'm afraid. Look at the British, who seem to be determined to elect a communist as a Prime Minister. Despite the sheer disaster of socialism in CEE.
 
bennett123
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:00 pm

PPVRA

What does 'dolorize' mean.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:58 pm

Today, Juan Guaidó offered amnesty to Maduro.
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Okie
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:23 pm

bennett123 wrote:
PPVRAWhat does 'dolorize' mean.

Dollarize or Dollarization. A method to stabilize a currency.
Google your friend.

Okie

Edit: "Dollarization" search on Google is probably blocked in Socialist countries.
 
bennett123
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:50 pm

Using the USD or another currency basically splits the country into those with access to foreign currency and those without.

Doubt if the bulk of the population do have access.
 
Okie
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:08 am

bennett123 wrote:
Using the USD or another currency basically splits the country into those with access to foreign currency and those without.Doubt if the bulk of the population do have access


Yes they do have access. Both "official" and black market.

The average salary is 21,870VEF (Bolivar) per month.
Massive inflation has reduced that to less than $0.09 USD per month.

Okie
 
bennett123
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:48 am

So at the end of the month, the worker gets $0.09 instead of 21,870 Bolivars.

It is a lot easier to carry that tiny coin, but not apart from that, I fail to see any other advantage.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:04 am

Well the people with access to dollars pay their goods in dollars, then shops have access to dollars. Shops pay their products in dollars, then producers have access to dollars. Public employees are paid in dollars. etc.

Kosovo is using the Euro as a currency as an exemple, despite not being part of the Eurozone and having no access to the ECB.
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bennett123
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:13 am

The average Dollar salary is still $0.09.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:06 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Go research the 90s, look at Sanders, I’m not doing your research especially since all you’re gonna offer is insults followed by revisionist history.

GF


Since when was Sanders even a democrat? He only caucuses with them.
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PPVRA
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:25 pm

bennett123 wrote:
PPVRA

What does 'dolorize' mean.


Dollarize, to adopt the US dollar.

My typo, apologies.
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PPVRA
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:27 pm

Russian mercenaries are reportedly arriving in Venezuela. Looking for a confirmation still.

Maduro is afraid of its own people, it’s own security forces.

Good.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:17 pm

"Spain, Germany, France and the UK have warned Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro that he must call elections within eight days - or they will officially recognise the opposition."

Don't really see that will have any effect on him.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-47014322
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salttee
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:30 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
"Spain, Germany, France and the UK have warned Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro that he must call elections within eight days - or they will officially recognise the opposition."

Don't really see that will have any effect on him.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-47014322

Even if it didn't put any pressure directly on him, it does put pressure on others who are trying to walk the line by remaining neutral. And it will bring events closer to unanimous condemnation which will have effect on him. Besides, it's the right thing to do.
 
PPVRA
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:03 pm

bennett123 wrote:
The average Dollar salary is still $0.09.


That’s a lot more than the salary will be worth in bolivars, in a mere matter hours. Let alone days, weeks or in a month.

That’s right, inflation like that of Venezuela changes prices multiple times a DAY. Yes, it is as ridiculous as it sounds.

Dollarization, or the adoption of the Euro, or almost any other currency would put an end to the hyperinflation almost instantly. Prices would stabilize, including wages.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Aesma
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:04 pm

Yeah, I'd like examples of countries with functioning democracies that kept electing the same people, staying democracies, while millions of their citizens were fleeing.

We see people fleeing because there is a war or a dictatorship, usually. Significant numbers of Greeks, Spaniards, Portuguese, also left their respective countries at the peak of the economic crisis, but not fleeing like that, and their governments did change several times since then, proving they're still democracies.
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Tugger
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:00 am

Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

As long as the military is with him...aka as long as he is able to pay off th emilitary leadership, Maduro will be abble to stay in power.

This is a limited but OK article on it:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... uaido.html

Basically Maduro has spent the last years consolidating power, handing the oil sector and its control over to the military leaders, and ingratiating himself with foreign powers willing to look the other way and give him money for oil. So he is fairly well entrenched. The current military leaders will not end their support for him as they will then lose the power and their control/money derived from the oil sector they control. And the billions Maduro has banked of the years will allow him to pay for those loyal to him

It's what authoritarian's do, just look at Russia. Look at communist nations. Those in power give power to those who support them. As long as you control the guns and the military and the intelligence apparatus control will be kept.

Tugg
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Gonzalo
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:13 pm

Tugger wrote:
Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

As long as the military is with him...aka as long as he is able to pay off th emilitary leadership, Maduro will be abble to stay in power.

This is a limited but OK article on it:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... uaido.html

Basically Maduro has spent the last years consolidating power, handing the oil sector and its control over to the military leaders, and ingratiating himself with foreign powers willing to look the other way and give him money for oil. So he is fairly well entrenched. The current military leaders will not end their support for him as they will then lose the power and their control/money derived from the oil sector they control. And the billions Maduro has banked of the years will allow him to pay for those loyal to him

It's what authoritarian's do, just look at Russia. Look at communist nations. Those in power give power to those who support them. As long as you control the guns and the military and the intelligence apparatus control will be kept.

Tugg



Exactly. The article you linked explains the things very well: The Military will not abandon Maduro since he is paying the party for them. Venezuela has more than 2.000 generals ( the US for example has around 900 ). The billions of dollars Putin is giving to Maduro will pay the party for a long time for this military elite, just compare that with the 20 millions offered by US to support Guaidó and you will know why the generals stick with Maduro no matter what.
And this scenario, sadly, could be the root cause for the only other way to get rid of Maduro: a sort of civil war between common people against trained and armed military forces, in other words, a blood bath that could be the last and only way to restore democracy. I feel sorry for the Venezuelans, they are really nice and kind people, and despite the mistakes they did in the past ( in other words Voting for Chavez ), they don’t deserve this misery.
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salttee
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:25 am

Better yet. Just call off the invasion.
 
Okie
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:07 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And, for a change, the “world” shouldn’t ask for outsiders to fix an internal problem. It’s up to the Venezuelans to fix and the expats should return to help. We keep letting sentiment (oh the poor starving people) overrule rock-ribbed thinking, which is how the US and the Europeans get entangled in civil wars, take in refugees who cause internal tensions and extremism. Go fight for YOUR country!

Tend to agree GF.
Socialist Venezuela is tied deeply with the other two largest Socialist countries which make it an out house mess if any other country tries to intervene.

China represented by Sinovena and CNPC Chinese national oil companies bought 9.9% and 40% respectively of the Orinoco oil play for $50B of which they have just barely started to get any return.

Russia represented by Rosneft has 49.9% holdings in PDVSA (Venezuela National Oil Co.) for untold monies which means Putin is selling Military hardware to Maduro's military for oil along with oil to import since no one will give Maduro any credit to buy light crude/naphtha. Putin is also selling Maduro wheat/corn for 50% more than he could buy it from Argentina but Maduro has not enough USD to pay for it so he pays the Putin price.

Then the Bernie Sanders-Cortez duck and hide issue is that Rosneft would hold 49.9% (PDVSA) interest in the US refiner Citgo although they do no hold the marketing end of Citgo.

There could easily be a major conflict between China and Putin over Venezuela especially since we have seen China getting pretty aggressive on at least the sword rattling of late.

Okie
 
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Tugger
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:08 am

Okie, GF,
Do you then disagree with the support the colonists received when trying to break the yoke of the British? France provided the most support but Spain, the Netherlands assisted as well. Without this support the colonists would have likely not succeeded. These nations provided access to money, supplies, weapons, military leaders, and soldiers. They played a major role in helping the colonists gain independence.

"Outside interests" has always been around and for the USA to assist at moments like this is relevant and a good thing in my opinion. I don't support "orchestrated overthrows" etc. (which we all know the USA has done). But assisting a nation and people in need is something we should do.

And shockingly the Trump administration has just done something that I think can help sway the military. It won't help change the minds of the current leadership alone but will provide "the dollars" that Guaidó will need. I hate the pay for power aspect but it is what it is.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -announces

Tugg
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Okie
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:47 am

Tugger wrote:
And shockingly the Trump administration has just done something that I think can help sway the military. It won't help change the minds of the current leadership alone but will provide "the dollars" that Guaidó will need. I hate the pay for power aspect but it is what it is.

Stopping Venezuelan oil imports has been tossed up for thought for sometime. The oil imports basically is Maduro's only source of USD. They can be restarted at any time. The main reason they have continued is the humanitarian need for USD to feed the population. However the US imports of Venezuelan oil has dropped dramatically with time and Venezuelan production has diminished due to government mismanagement from about 2.7Mbbl per day to about 1Mbbl per day, some are say less and numbers are fudged. You also have to remember that Maduro has sold roughly 50% of production to China and Russia.

So Maduro is operating on less than the value of 500k bbl per day to feed his 9,000 generals, military and government hanger-on's which does not do much to feed the populace. Maduro has destroyed all the farms, manufacturing and production of most everything.

Tugger wrote:
. But assisting a nation and people in need is something we should do.

Agreed, but to this point the Venezuelans have refused to participate in their own livelihood.
They at some point will have to participate instead of waiting for some one else to do something and sit around with their hand out.
We are starting to see some protests but they will have to vote.

Okie
 
salttee
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:51 am

What's the difference between an "orchestrated overthrow" and "assisting a nation" in getting rid of a leader our administration doesn't like? Keep in mind that either way (assuming there is a difference), the CIA will be the operational facet of the American government in "assisting" the change. They are the ones with the General's and colonel's cell phone numbers and bank deposit slips.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:46 am

Do you then disagree with the support the colonists received when trying to break the yoke of the British? France provided the most support but Spain, the Netherlands assisted as well. Without this support the colonists would have likely not succeeded. These nations provided access to money, supplies, weapons, military leaders, and soldiers. They played a major role in helping the colonists gain independence.


No opinion as it was those country’s decisions. Was invaluable and decisive, but doesn’t mean two centuries later those decisions justify the US going around whacking bubbas that aren’t threatening the us. Don’t forget the colonists started the revolution, France and Spain didn’t.

GF
 
MIAspotter
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:58 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

And, for a change, the “world” shouldn’t ask for outsiders to fix an internal problem. It’s up to the Venezuelans to fix and the expats should return to help. We keep letting sentiment (oh the poor starving people) overrule rock-ribbed thinking, which is how the US and the Europeans get entangled in civil wars, take in refugees who cause internal tensions and extremism. Go fight for YOUR country!

GF


Oh believe me the Venezuelan people have fought long and hard, there has been major protests in 2014, 2016, 2017 and now, but when the civillians are faced with repression from the National Guard (which is actually Cuban Military forces in disguise, let this be known) and you get hundreds of people detained and put through quick military trials (yes, civillians in military trials) and also hundreds more killed, you sort of lose hope, the regime has the military and weapons, and the order is always clear, shoot to kill.

So when faced with this situation, you have no other choice but to ask for international support not just because of the mass murdering of people, but by the whole situation (hospitals in crumbles with no supplies, shortage of food, shortage of power, shortage of basic services like running water, telephone, etc)

MIAspotter.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:32 am

Okie wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Wow such Trump like intellect there. You are talking about 2 people within a big country that has bigger problems than your Fox News sources can wrap their small intellect around.


Quite aware that each and every failure of Socialism is "Somebody Else's Fault" :roll:

You got any successful stories to share about Utopian Socialism. Last time I looked about 2,000,000 people have left Venezuela because they are starving.

Okie


The Scandinavian countries are socialist, last time I looked they are all doing pretty well.
 
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Gonzalo
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:00 pm

I found really amazing that well educated people in this forum still confuse the things despite the obvious. Some of you are claiming that the Venezuelans should solve their problems without any kind of influence from other countries, missing the core of this whole situation. Venezuelans who like democracy have been fighting for a long time, but no one in the opposition had the strength or the guts to say stop to the regime. All previous leaders escaped to exile, were jailed or deflated due to their own lack of clarity about how to do the things to reach democracy ( Capriles, Lopez, etc. ).
Now this young and decided guy Juan Guaidó is doing the things nobody did before, and the support from all sides who want democracy is fundamental. Simple like that.
Otherwise, we will keep seeing this kind of gems from the regime :
http://www.elpais.com.uy/mundo/delcy-ro ... lanos.html

For the non Spanish readers: Vicepresident Delcy Rodríguez says the massive exodus of more than 3.000.000 of Venezuelans is a lie, and actually Venezuela is the country with the biggest number of immigrants COMING INTO the country. It is so pathetic !!!! All the counties around Venezuela are flooded with people fleeing and this clowns have the nerve to say that the things are all the way around !!!! This woman is really begging for a really bad end for her, maybe she never read about Eva Braun or Clara Petacci...
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Gonzalo
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:12 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Okie wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Wow such Trump like intellect there. You are talking about 2 people within a big country that has bigger problems than your Fox News sources can wrap their small intellect around.


Quite aware that each and every failure of Socialism is "Somebody Else's Fault" :roll:

You got any successful stories to share about Utopian Socialism. Last time I looked about 2,000,000 people have left Venezuela because they are starving.

Okie


The Scandinavian countries are socialist, last time I looked they are all doing pretty well.


Yeah well, but the Scandinavian countries practice the real socialism, the one that Jesus predicated and says “all mine is yours”. The States of those countries have high taxes but they use the money to actually provide social welfare, their respect the private property and promote the economic activity to keep the things moving.
Maduro and their gangsters practice the preverse socialism “all your things are mine”, or belongs to the government. They actually stole or destroy everything similar to a productive company or activity, including oil, and the money they get is not used for social welfare but for buy the loyalty of the military and grow their personal accounts in foreign banks. Small difference huh?
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Derico
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:49 pm

This ideological add is relatively so recent and well done it's creepy:

https://youtu.be/QNj5YfdYPGs

People always compare the socialism of Europe with the one in Central America or Caribbean. Without getting into actually how to define socialism (it depends on each person how far it must go to be called socialism), it's not the reason it seems to fail in the region. It fails for simpler reasons:

1. The system called socialism in Europe is rooted on the idea of a benevolent safety net to achieve social harmony. The system in CA&C is based in amplifying resentment and jaundice between social classes, so by definition it seeks the opposite of social harmony. It is a vendetta ideology above all, unlike the European one which seeks social compromise above all.

2. The system in Europe still tries to teach people how to fish for themselves, the CA&C version just promises endless fish, creating a handout dependent class.

3. The CA&C version of socialism unlike the European version is inevitably heavily informed by Latin American populism, in other words promising all the benefits of the system with none of the sacrifices (paying taxes and not evading them, paying high taxes, little room for waste and corrurption, and no bread and circus schemes like saying watching every football game is a human right :sarcastic: ). And populism is the antonym of nation and institution building.

4. Finally, the population bears responsibility, for wanting to take but never give. In Asia or Europe kids get educated to become productive members that pay in the system, in Latin America too often the poorer sectors put almost zero priority to education and hard work, expecting the politician du jour to just solve it all magically for them. Food, jobs, housing, medicine, entertainment even. This sooner or later makes the whole system bankrupt.
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Gonzalo
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:16 pm

Derico wrote:
This ideological add is relatively so recent and well done it's creepy:

https://youtu.be/QNj5YfdYPGs

People always compare the socialism of Europe with the one in Central America or Caribbean. Without getting into actually how to define socialism (it depends on each person how far it must go to be called socialism), it's not the reason it seems to fail in the region. It fails for simpler reasons:

1. The system called socialism in Europe is rooted on the idea of a benevolent safety net to achieve social harmony. The system in CA&C is based in amplifying resentment and jaundice between social classes, so by definition it seeks the opposite of social harmony. It is a vendetta ideology above all, unlike the European one which seeks social compromise above all.

2. The system in Europe still tries to teach people how to fish for themselves, the CA&C version just promises endless fish, creating a handout dependent class.

3. The CA&C version of socialism unlike the European version is inevitably heavily informed by Latin American populism, in other words promising all the benefits of the system with none of the sacrifices (paying taxes and not evading them, paying high taxes, little room for waste and corrurption, and no bread and circus schemes like saying watching every football game is a human right :sarcastic: ). And populism is the antonym of nation and institution building.

4. Finally, the population bears responsibility, for wanting to take but never give. In Asia or Europe kids get educated to become productive members that pay in the system, in Latin America too often the poorer sectors put almost zero priority to education and hard work, expecting the politician du jour to just solve it all magically for them. Food, jobs, housing, medicine, entertainment even. This sooner or later makes the whole system bankrupt.



That add is creepy indeed, specially considering that in the same site of YouTube you can find several reports from BBC or others showing the starving childrens and people looking for food in the garbage on a daily basis.
Your analysis about the meaning of the word socialism is very accurate too. The thousands of the called “ni-ni” in our countries is the proof of that ( ni ni means “ni estudiar ni trabajar”, in English: no study/no work). There are thousand of young people who could be studying or working for a better future, but they only expect the “gifts” from the government, they claim for their ”rights” but they don’t know the meaning of the word “responsibility”.

Rgds.
G.
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Gonzalo
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:47 pm

Maybe this is normal, but some could also interpret this as a step forward from USA against Maduro and the hard proof that the phrase of President Trump about “all options are open in Venezuela” is for real.

https://www.elpais.com.uy/mundo/apunte- ... zuela.html

A photographer zoomed in into the note book of John Bolton, the sentence “5.000 troops to Colombia” is clearly visible.
Could mean nothing, or could be the proof that the US is decided to put the Maduro’s regime to an end and is preparing the resources if the regime persists in the attitude of harrasement against Guaidó and don’t call for free elections soon.

Rgds.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:13 am

Derico wrote:
This ideological add is relatively so recent and well done it's creepy:

https://youtu.be/QNj5YfdYPGs

People always compare the socialism of Europe with the one in Central America or Caribbean. Without getting into actually how to define socialism (it depends on each person how far it must go to be called socialism), it's not the reason it seems to fail in the region. It fails for simpler reasons:

1. The system called socialism in Europe is rooted on the idea of a benevolent safety net to achieve social harmony. The system in CA&C is based in amplifying resentment and jaundice between social classes, so by definition it seeks the opposite of social harmony. It is a vendetta ideology above all, unlike the European one which seeks social compromise above all.

2. The system in Europe still tries to teach people how to fish for themselves, the CA&C version just promises endless fish, creating a handout dependent class.

3. The CA&C version of socialism unlike the European version is inevitably heavily informed by Latin American populism, in other words promising all the benefits of the system with none of the sacrifices (paying taxes and not evading them, paying high taxes, little room for waste and corrurption, and no bread and circus schemes like saying watching every football game is a human right :sarcastic: ). And populism is the antonym of nation and institution building.

4. Finally, the population bears responsibility, for wanting to take but never give. In Asia or Europe kids get educated to become productive members that pay in the system, in Latin America too often the poorer sectors put almost zero priority to education and hard work, expecting the politician du jour to just solve it all magically for them. Food, jobs, housing, medicine, entertainment even. This sooner or later makes the whole system bankrupt.


The European system is more capitalism with a great welfare state. All brought to you by a “high trust” populations that expect everyone to “pull their weight” and is willing to help the unfortunate.

GF
 
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Gonzalo
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:59 am

I would love to know the opinion ( or even better, the explanation ) of anrec80, who claims that the Venezuelans and only the Venezuelans should solve their problems, with no intervention of any foreign power, about two specific FACTS that shows the obvious and gross intervention of Mr. Putin and friends in Venezuela :
1. The brave Maduro has replaced his personal security with a staff of dozens of russian bodyguards sent by his friend Putin, because he knows that even in the venezuelan army there are already people who is not happy with him and could kick him off from the government very soon. How do you call that anrec80? Just a good man worried about the health of his friend? Or just plain interventionism in the fate of a foreign country?
2. An unusual visitor, to say it politely, landed in Caracas a couple of days ago, a Nordwind Boeing 777, with only 2 crew members, and remained parked until now, without any explanation of the mission of this aircraft, although it is clear that not a single tourist arrived on it and this plane is there to take something or someone back to Russia, or another communist country, since I doubt Nordwind will pay this trip just to test the capability of the crew to land a 777 in Caracas. Any explanation about it? Because I have no doubt you will be screaming about interventionism if a US registered aircraft with no pax make such a suspicious visit with no reason to Venezuela.
I'm sure your explanation will be very funny to read, if you have the nerve to give one.


Rgds.
G.
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MIAspotter
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:52 pm

Gonzalo wrote:
I would love to know the opinion ( or even better, the explanation ) of anrec80, who claims that the Venezuelans and only the Venezuelans should solve their problems, with no intervention of any foreign power, about two specific FACTS that shows the obvious and gross intervention of Mr. Putin and friends in Venezuela :
1. The brave Maduro has replaced his personal security with a staff of dozens of russian bodyguards sent by his friend Putin, because he knows that even in the venezuelan army there are already people who is not happy with him and could kick him off from the government very soon. How do you call that anrec80? Just a good man worried about the health of his friend? Or just plain interventionism in the fate of a foreign country?
2. An unusual visitor, to say it politely, landed in Caracas a couple of days ago, a Nordwind Boeing 777, with only 2 crew members, and remained parked until now, without any explanation of the mission of this aircraft, although it is clear that not a single tourist arrived on it and this plane is there to take something or someone back to Russia, or another communist country, since I doubt Nordwind will pay this trip just to test the capability of the crew to land a 777 in Caracas. Any explanation about it? Because I have no doubt you will be screaming about interventionism if a US registered aircraft with no pax make such a suspicious visit with no reason to Venezuela.
I'm sure your explanation will be very funny to read, if you have the nerve to give one.


Rgds.
G.


Couldn´t have said it better myself, I was about to post something along the same lines, but I am getting tired of dealing with communist loving dimwits who live in a democracy, and as Venezuelan myself I am pretty much full on following the happennings right now, so I am quite mentally tired with all the information (and misinformation) coming out.

I am hopeful that the situation will be over soon, but then again we are dealing with a criminal tyrant here, and you can´t just come up and say ¨Hey, the people have spoken, and they want you out, so... bye bye.¨ cause that ain´t gonna happen.

A bloodbath is sadly expected, but remain hopeful that it won´t get to that point.

MIAspotter
Nos vamos de Vueling?
 
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Gonzalo
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:13 pm

MIAspotter wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
I would love to know the opinion ( or even better, the explanation ) of anrec80, who claims that the Venezuelans and only the Venezuelans should solve their problems, with no intervention of any foreign power, about two specific FACTS that shows the obvious and gross intervention of Mr. Putin and friends in Venezuela :
1. The brave Maduro has replaced his personal security with a staff of dozens of russian bodyguards sent by his friend Putin, because he knows that even in the venezuelan army there are already people who is not happy with him and could kick him off from the government very soon. How do you call that anrec80? Just a good man worried about the health of his friend? Or just plain interventionism in the fate of a foreign country?
2. An unusual visitor, to say it politely, landed in Caracas a couple of days ago, a Nordwind Boeing 777, with only 2 crew members, and remained parked until now, without any explanation of the mission of this aircraft, although it is clear that not a single tourist arrived on it and this plane is there to take something or someone back to Russia, or another communist country, since I doubt Nordwind will pay this trip just to test the capability of the crew to land a 777 in Caracas. Any explanation about it? Because I have no doubt you will be screaming about interventionism if a US registered aircraft with no pax make such a suspicious visit with no reason to Venezuela.
I'm sure your explanation will be very funny to read, if you have the nerve to give one.


Rgds.
G.


Couldn´t have said it better myself, I was about to post something along the same lines, but I am getting tired of dealing with communist loving dimwits who live in a democracy, and as Venezuelan myself I am pretty much full on following the happennings right now, so I am quite mentally tired with all the information (and misinformation) coming out.

I am hopeful that the situation will be over soon, but then again we are dealing with a criminal tyrant here, and you can´t just come up and say ¨Hey, the people have spoken, and they want you out, so... bye bye.¨ cause that ain´t gonna happen.

A bloodbath is sadly expected, but remain hopeful that it won´t get to that point.

MIAspotter


Sadly I have the same expectations about how this regime will end, and while I try to imagine possible scenarios with the Maduro Gang just fleeing to a resort in Cuba with no casualties for the common people, we all know that the biggest chances are on the side of demonstrators against the regime being massacred, detained and/or tortured (again ) in the next weeks. The European countries and European Parliament recognizing the legitimacy of Guaido and the seizure of Citgo in USA are good news, but not enough to see the criminals going out of Miraflores.
In any case, you can be sure that all venezuelans who want democracy and freedom have full support and solidarity all across the world, and that people who still support Maduro are an irrelevant minority ( disgracefully the brain washing still works in some places ), or have political agendas trying to give strength to the communist regimes in their own countries, but they will not succeed, you can be sure.
Here in Latin America we all learned the lessons about what communism means, and while we all know democracy and capitalism have a lot of problems and things to improve, there is no comparison between the two.
As an example, yesterday, at midday, across 30 different cities in Chile, 30 bands performed recitals called concert in the roof, remembering the 50 years of the last concert of The Beatles. They sang the same songs of that day 50 years ago, for free, on the roofs of municipal theaters or similar public buildings across all our country. People on the streets was amazed, happy, singing in chorus with the bands, laughing and celebrating. At the same time, in Venezuelans streets, people was doing demonstrations against a dictatorship, with empty stomachs but the clear vision of who is responsible fot their suffering.
That is the difference between freedom and communism, between democracy and a mafia ruling the country. This is just a matter of time.

Rgds.

G.
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trpmb6
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:17 pm

Are there any numbers available for the number of asylum seekers from Venezuela to other countries?
 
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Gonzalo
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:01 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Are there any numbers available for the number of asylum seekers from Venezuela to other countries?


I just found this article with a map and numbers by country, but is not up to date ( is from Aug-2018 ).
The 2,3 millions cited in the article are more than 3 millions today, and that number is expected to rise to 5,5 millions by the end of 2019.

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/internaci ... ca-6995746

The economic catastrophe after Maduro will last for years and it will require hard work and international aid before a normal situation is created almost from zero, so the migration from Venezuela will not disappear even if Maduro is out of the equation quickly.

Rgds.

G.
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Gonzalo
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:03 pm

Gonzalo wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Are there any numbers available for the number of asylum seekers from Venezuela to other countries?


Dunno if you're asking for political asylum seekers specifically, or if you're talking about people fleeing from the catastrophe of Maduro...For me every venezuelan leaving the country due to starvation is in some way an asylum seeker, so with this in mind I just found this article with a map and numbers by country, but is not up to date ( is from Aug-2018 ).
The 2,3 millions cited in the article are more than 3 millions today, and that number is expected to rise to 5,5 millions by the end of 2019.

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/internaci ... ca-6995746

The economic catastrophe after Maduro will last for years and it will require hard work and international aid before a normal situation is created almost from zero, so the migration from Venezuela will not disappear even if Maduro is out of the equation quickly.

Rgds.

G.
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Okie
Posts: 4156
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:43 pm

Gonzalo wrote:
The economic catastrophe after Maduro will last for years and it will require hard work and international aid before a normal situation is created almost from zero, so the migration from Venezuela will not disappear even if Maduro is out of the equation quickly.

I have worked with several expat engineers and programmers from Venezuela since early to mid 00's on different projects.
Each and everyone of them said they had political operatives and relatives of government officials appointed to supervise their positions. They also noted that not one of the appointees had any background or idea of the job at hand. One of the programmers indicated his new assigned boss's only background was he had played a video game.
They all chose to leave Venezuela. Every one of them appeared top shelf in my opinion.

The entire brain trust has left Venezuela period. Does not matter if it is Doctors, Engineers or any Profession. The seem to have found work elsewhere whether other SA countries or US.
I am not sure how many would even consider to return now. Maybe 5-7 years ago some may have, most are entrenched in their new life and probably not to anxious to return at this point.

It will probably take 4-5 years to turn Venezuela back around and weed out the Chavez/Maduro hangers on including the Military.

Okie

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trpmb6
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:43 pm

Gonzalo wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Are there any numbers available for the number of asylum seekers from Venezuela to other countries?


I just found this article with a map and numbers by country, but is not up to date ( is from Aug-2018 ).
The 2,3 millions cited in the article are more than 3 millions today, and that number is expected to rise to 5,5 millions by the end of 2019.

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/internaci ... ca-6995746

The economic catastrophe after Maduro will last for years and it will require hard work and international aid before a normal situation is created almost from zero, so the migration from Venezuela will not disappear even if Maduro is out of the equation quickly.

Rgds.

G.


Thanks Gonzalo,

No doubt the economic impact spreads to the neighboring countries as well. Not just from the lack of importing of goods, but also from the increase in available workforce by asylum seekers depressing wages as well.

The sooner the correction begins the better.
 
MIAspotter
Posts: 2937
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 1:57 pm

Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:36 am

Gonzalo wrote:

Sadly I have the same expectations about how this regime will end, and while I try to imagine possible scenarios with the Maduro Gang just fleeing to a resort in Cuba with no casualties for the common people, we all know that the biggest chances are on the side of demonstrators against the regime being massacred, detained and/or tortured (again ) in the next weeks. .


Sadly yes, that´s why I am gobsmacked when some governments, civil organizations et al, call for ¨talks¨, talks? with who? with a dictator? excuse me but if talks worked... then we wouldn´t have had Castro, Mugabe, Gaddafi, Hussein, Noriega, Etc.

We are dealing with a criminal murderer tyrant here, they won´t go quietly after ¨talks¨ their only interest is to maintain power at all cost and they give a toss if hundreds of people die in the process.

MIAspotter
Nos vamos de Vueling?
 
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Gonzalo
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:01 am

MIAspotter wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:

Sadly I have the same expectations about how this regime will end, and while I try to imagine possible scenarios with the Maduro Gang just fleeing to a resort in Cuba with no casualties for the common people, we all know that the biggest chances are on the side of demonstrators against the regime being massacred, detained and/or tortured (again ) in the next weeks. .


Sadly yes, that´s why I am gobsmacked when some governments, civil organizations et al, call for ¨talks¨, talks? with who? with a dictator? excuse me but if talks worked... then we wouldn´t have had Castro, Mugabe, Gaddafi, Hussein, Noriega, Etc.

We are dealing with a criminal murderer tyrant here, they won´t go quietly after ¨talks¨ their only interest is to maintain power at all cost and they give a toss if hundreds of people die in the process.

MIAspotter


I fully agree with you. And believe me, although I live in Chile since 1994, I'm uruguayan and I feel ASHAMED about the attitude of the uruguayan government, not a big surprise to be honest, hard left parties are ruling Uruguay for many years now and they have many favors to pay to the gangsters in the venezuelan administration. The position of mexican AMLO isn't a surprise either, he is another gem of hard left parties in the continent. Sadly every day wasted in conversations is just another day to increase the robbery from the Maduro's gangsters and another children or sick person suffering trapped in Venezuela.

Rgds.
G.
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MIAspotter
Posts: 2937
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 1:57 pm

Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:22 am

Gonzalo wrote:

I fully agree with you. And believe me, although I live in Chile since 1994, I'm uruguayan and I feel ASHAMED about the attitude of the uruguayan government


Well, in Uruguay´s favour, they gave us Almagro, which thankfully has stood up and gave Venezuelans a voice at the OAS and helped start the transition process.

MIAspotter
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Gonzalo
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:32 am

MIAspotter wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:

I fully agree with you. And believe me, although I live in Chile since 1994, I'm uruguayan and I feel ASHAMED about the attitude of the uruguayan government


Well, in Uruguay´s favour, they gave us Almagro, which thankfully has stood up and gave Venezuelans a voice at the OAS and helped start the transition process.

MIAspotter



Yep, and believe it or not, Almagro was originally a member of the leftist coalition Frente Amplio, but after committing the unforgivable sin of being a democrat and use the common sense against the obvious violations of human rights in Venezuela, he is a political pariah in the country and all the high powers of the uruguayan government considers him as a traitor. They trash him and demonstrate how deep is their hate against Almagro every time they can.
But Almagro has one thing, a treasure that none of them could ever have : integrity.


Rgds.
G
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Gonzalo
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:30 pm

And finally we can confirm what all of us with common sense already knew : the robbery and destruction of the gold reserves of Venezuelans continues...
http://www.clarin.com/mundo/maduro-apre ... D-NgV.html

A russian aircraft departed with three tons of gold bars, part of the reserve from the Venezuelan central bank, in other words, belonging to the people of Venezuela, but now being stolen by the gangsters associated with Maduro.
And this is just the first flight, they have plans to transport between 15 and 30 tons of gold bars out of Venezuela.
Meanwhile, people continues suffering without food, medicines, much less freedom of speech.

Rgds.
G.
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Tugger
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:38 pm

Well this is a potentially huge game changer:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... t-protests
A top Venezuelan air force officer broke with embattled President Nicolas Maduro and called on the military to back U.S.-supported opposition leader Juan Guaido.

In a video message reported by El Nacional and other Venezuelan media, General Francisco Esteban Yanez Rodriguez pledged his support to Guaido and asserted that 90 percent of the armed forces oppose Maduro, who faces increasing pressure by President Donald Trump’s administration to make way for his rival.


One can only hope.

Tugg
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There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:44 am

Hopefully, Venezuela will move forward soon. Maduro reign is over because he ruined the country, no legitimacy anymore. Let the people decide and move towards early elections. Quite sad that you can ruin a country this fast. Populism in optima forma.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Gonzalo
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Re: Will Maduro be ousted from Venezuela ?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:52 pm

Moderators, this thread has been kidnapped by a discussion about the role of Russia in the WWII, which has nothing to do with the topic at hand, the situation in Venezuela. Besides many of the posts includes insults to other members ( I spit on you ! ... is one of the soft things you can read here ). It should be locked or at least all the irrelevant, disrespectful and off topic posts should be deleted. It is clear that some members here can not behave properly.
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