https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46980913

And just now Argentina has joined the U.S. in recognizing Juan Guaidó as interim president. I think this a good move. Maduro has to go no matter what..

I also hope that Juan Guaidó has a good security detail. I have a feeling something bad is going to happen to him, either an arrest or an outright assassination.

The question is not “if”, but “how” and “when”. In a perfect, ideal world, the answers should be : peacefully, soon. But since we live in the real world, I’m afraid that having both is impossible.
I hope he will be out soon, but I have the sad feeling that he will not go without causing a blood bath in the process.
And I have no problem to say that I really hope he and their closest will be hanged ala Saddam, this human garbage doesn’t deserves a trial in court.

Rgds.
G.

Let’s hope this scumbag runs away to Cuba. But I, too, fear this monster won’t go without spilling blood.

Gonzalo wrote:

The question is not “if”, but “how” and “when”. In a perfect, ideal world, the answers should be : peacefully, soon.

The Venezuelan's basically voted to change their constitution to make themselves totally irrelevant for the selection of President or any government office back around mid 2017.

Most of the Venezuelan Brain Trust left back in the mid 90's when Chavez took over. They are at the mercy of political hacks to operate any service.

I really feel sorry for the Venezuelan's but they pretty much chose the path of Socialism and gut their constitution. Venezuela has ran out of other peoples money and their dwindling source of income which is oil.

They have basically run out of any legal method to change their government the best I can tell.

I really do not see a Military Coup since their only source of food, housing and income is from Maduro's oil money which Maduro controls.

1,000,000% inflation last year predicted to be 100,000,000% this year.

Okie
Quick edit. The Black Market exchange rate is 3,800,000 Bolivars per dollar today or 38,000 bolivars for a US penny. The largest Bolivar is 500 so it would take a large pile to even make a penny US.

Important to realize that this game was lost 15 years ago. The destruction of their society (business, legitimate institutions) happened 15 years ago. The useful part to know is the arguments that were used back then. The poorly educated public was seduced by widely known socialist lies. That housing is a right, so line up and get your free housing. As a result, no housing was built or maintained. It became illegal to make money as a food supplier. As a result, there was no food. It became illegal to make money providing medical care. As a result, everybody died in the street or at homes instead of a hospital, where there nevertheless was no equipment and no doctors or medicine anymore.

It all sounded logical to people who had no understanding. Policies were clumsily put into place without regard for who would pay for them. This is what unskilled, untrained revolutionaries do when they destroy a society. It could happen here tomorrow.

Flighty wrote:

Important to realize that this game was lost 15 years ago. The destruction of their society (business, legitimate institutions) happened 15 years ago. The useful part to know is the arguments that were used back then. The poorly educated public was seduced by widely known socialist lies. That housing is a right, so line up and get your free housing. As a result, no housing was built or maintained. It became illegal to make money as a food supplier. As a result, there was no food. It became illegal to make money providing medical care. As a result, everybody died in the street or at homes instead of a hospital, where there nevertheless was no equipment and no doctors or medicine anymore.

It all sounded logical to people who had no understanding. Policies were clumsily put into place without regard for who would pay for them. This is what unskilled, untrained revolutionaries do when they destroy a society. It could happen here tomorrow.

Fascism, and a lack of a diversified economy that depended on Oil is to blame more than socialism. Socialism is where everyone agrees to take on the tasks of sharing the resources. The sharing of resources was forced on all involved. It was much more fascist .

And yes it can happen here, like when a lying racist convinces everyone to waste funds on an ineffective wall that will not solve any real issues associated with 30+ years of illegal immigration.

casinterest wrote:

Flighty wrote:

Important to realize that this game was lost 15 years ago. The destruction of their society (business, legitimate institutions) happened 15 years ago. The useful part to know is the arguments that were used back then. The poorly educated public was seduced by widely known socialist lies. That housing is a right, so line up and get your free housing. As a result, no housing was built or maintained. It became illegal to make money as a food supplier. As a result, there was no food. It became illegal to make money providing medical care. As a result, everybody died in the street or at homes instead of a hospital, where there nevertheless was no equipment and no doctors or medicine anymore.

It all sounded logical to people who had no understanding. Policies were clumsily put into place without regard for who would pay for them. This is what unskilled, untrained revolutionaries do when they destroy a society. It could happen here tomorrow.

Fascism, and a lack of a diversified economy that depended on Oil is to blame more than socialism. Socialism is where everyone agrees to take on the tasks of sharing the resources. The sharing of resources was forced on all involved. It was much more fascist .

And yes it can happen here, like when a lying racist convinces everyone to waste funds on an ineffective wall that will not solve any real issues associated with 30+ years of illegal immigration.

As stated in the post you quoted, Venezuela has been failing for 15+ years.

Too often you see news articles blaming Venezuela’s condition on oil. That is flatly untrue and is being published by reporters who weren’t paying any attention to Venezuela at the time or with short memories.

Chavez had to deal with high levels of inflation and shortages of products and rising violence even as Venezuela should have been booming thanks to skyrocketing oil prices. Even then, he failed. His regime had its life buoyed a little longer by record oil prices but it has always been unsustainable.

Every economic policy Chavez/Maduro implanted failed in a very predictable way. And they met these failures with the usual left-wing socialist scapegoat cries....

It’s the fault of greedy businessmen!

It’s the fault of greedy speculators!

It’s the fault of greedy hoarders!

Greedy foreigners, greedy bankers....

Greed, greed, greed!!!!

FFS enough is enough with these morons! They’re the greedy ones—for power AND money!

casinterest wrote:

Fascism, and a lack of a diversified economy that depended on Oil is to blame more than socialism. Socialism is where everyone agrees to take on the tasks of sharing the resources

Do not let facts get in the way of your diatribe.

Chavez and Maduro are Socialist and proud of it.
Partido Socialista Unido de Venezuela. That is The United Socialist Party of Venezuela.

Maybe you should go visit Venezuela and get Maduro corrected on his affiliation.

Okie

The USA is fighting a losing battle in the middle east when they could be using their troops for a worthwhile cause helping people who actually want it in Venezuela.

Oh yes, let’s invade Venezuela! Right! Best thing we ever did is let them stew in their own socialist juices. If you can’t be a good example, be a horrible warning.

GF

DeutchLund wrote:

The USA is fighting a losing battle in the middle east when they could be using their troops for a worthwhile cause helping people who actually want it in Venezuela.

The population keeps voting for the socialism they have. Even voted to gut their constitution and make their vote irrelevant.

They are deathly afraid that someone somewhere has something they do not and are so greedy they want to be sure that everybody else is as miserable as themselves.
Failure after failure after government intervention and it is always somebody else's fault for the failure.


Other than show detest of the situation not much else will be done.

I know the USN has a hospital ship in port providing emergency health assistance. Venezuela has free healthcare but no doctors, no medical supplies, no pharmaceuticals, no water to the medical facilities and electricity maybe 2 hours a day but it is free.

Okie

DeutchLund wrote:

The USA is fighting a losing battle in the middle east when they could be using their troops for a worthwhile cause helping people who actually want it in Venezuela.

Sticking in again? Isn’t it time to learn that anywhere you sticked in nothing changed to better? Be it Syria, Ukraine, Libya? Venezuelans will figure it out without anyone’s troops.

Gonzalo wrote:

The question is not “if”, but “how” and “when”. In a perfect, ideal world, the answers should be : peacefully, soon. But since we live in the real world, I’m afraid that having both is impossible.
I hope he will be out soon, but I have the sad feeling that he will not go without causing a blood bath in the process.
And I have no problem to say that I really hope he and their closest will be hanged ala Saddam, this human garbage doesn’t deserves a trial in court.

Rgds.
G.

Fall last year, several neighbors and Canada filed a grievance with the International Court of Justice in The Hague over substantial human rights abuses by the Maduro regime.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/26/worl ... court.html

Let's hope something comes from this.

Okie wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Fascism, and a lack of a diversified economy that depended on Oil is to blame more than socialism. Socialism is where everyone agrees to take on the tasks of sharing the resources

Do not let facts get in the way of your diatribe.

Chavez and Maduro are Socialist and proud of it.
Partido Socialista Unido de Venezuela. That is The United Socialist Party of Venezuela.

Maybe you should go visit Venezuela and get Maduro corrected on his affiliation.

Okie

Socialism does not explain a leader that rejects democracy and holds on to power at all costs. That is authoritarianism.

Economically they were destroyed by a lack of diversification and corruption. That's also a less direct by-product of authoritarianism.

Most high profile communist revolutions were tainted by extreme nationalistic fervor and leaders that craved power. They promised to divide wealth amongst everyone, but they were lying and kept it for themselves.

The idea of taking productive assets and giving them to the government consolidates power and wealth in one place and makes it easy for an autocratic leader to seize it all for theirselves, rendering communism a concept too idealistic for practical use. You can't blame it for the actions of an autocrat, you can only say it's deeply flawed and vulnerable to exploitation by autocrats.

Also you guys keep conflating socialism and communism.

Jouhou wrote:

you guys keep conflating socialism and communism.

Gross.

Venezuela's problem explained!

PPVRA wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Flighty wrote:

Important to realize that this game was lost 15 years ago. The destruction of their society (business, legitimate institutions) happened 15 years ago. The useful part to know is the arguments that were used back then. The poorly educated public was seduced by widely known socialist lies. That housing is a right, so line up and get your free housing. As a result, no housing was built or maintained. It became illegal to make money as a food supplier. As a result, there was no food. It became illegal to make money providing medical care. As a result, everybody died in the street or at homes instead of a hospital, where there nevertheless was no equipment and no doctors or medicine anymore.

It all sounded logical to people who had no understanding. Policies were clumsily put into place without regard for who would pay for them. This is what unskilled, untrained revolutionaries do when they destroy a society. It could happen here tomorrow.

Fascism, and a lack of a diversified economy that depended on Oil is to blame more than socialism. Socialism is where everyone agrees to take on the tasks of sharing the resources. The sharing of resources was forced on all involved. It was much more fascist .

And yes it can happen here, like when a lying racist convinces everyone to waste funds on an ineffective wall that will not solve any real issues associated with 30+ years of illegal immigration.

As stated in the post you quoted, Venezuela has been failing for 15+ years.

Too often you see news articles blaming Venezuela’s condition on oil. That is flatly untrue and is being published by reporters who weren’t paying any attention to Venezuela at the time or with short memories.

Chavez had to deal with high levels of inflation and shortages of products and rising violence even as Venezuela should have been booming thanks to skyrocketing oil prices. Even then, he failed. His regime had its life buoyed a little longer by record oil prices but it has always been unsustainable.

The inflation happened because Chavez put everything into oil, and wen oil crashed in price, the cost of everything else remained the same. They couldn't import what they needed, and then they had hyperinflation as the supplies they did have couldn't cover everyone. Their production also collapsed as they couldn't compete with foreign entities that could produce items cheaper. Oil recovered, but the economy has turned to the black markets, and Facism had replaced the original socialism experiment. Foreign entities ( shell , exxon, airlines, and the like) would no longer make investments to get the economy going due to the bad faith they had in the government. Then came Chavez's death and the next round of oil plummeting, and all was lost for Venezueala.

Oil had a lot to do with the problem. Especially since the people and government put too much faith in it's value.

Okie wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Fascism, and a lack of a diversified economy that depended on Oil is to blame more than socialism. Socialism is where everyone agrees to take on the tasks of sharing the resources

Do not let facts get in the way of your diatribe.

Chavez and Maduro are Socialist and proud of it.
Partido Socialista Unido de Venezuela. That is The United Socialist Party of Venezuela.

Maybe you should go visit Venezuela and get Maduro corrected on his affiliation.

Okie

Wow such Trump like intellect there. You are talking about 2 people within a big country that has bigger problems than your Fox News sources can wrap their small intellect around.

Okie wrote:

The Venezuelan's basically voted to change their constitution to make themselves totally irrelevant for the selection of President or any government office back around mid 2017.

Wrong, Venezuelan´s voted to change their constitution back in 1999 under Chavez.

The last Elections carried out in Venezuela have been fraudulent due to the Voting Committee being just a branch of the Ruling party in Venezuela, therefore lacking any transparency and fairness. In 2017 the National Assembly wanted to have a referendum to recall Maduro´s presidency, but the Voting Commitee did not support it, and instead pulled out an arbitrary referendum to create a new Constituent Assembly in order to get rid of the current assembly voted by the people in the 2015 elections.

That was a fraud as turnout was mediocre and none of the opposition parties took part, same as the Presidential Elections of last year.

MIAspotter

casinterest wrote:

Wow such Trump like intellect there. You are talking about 2 people within a big country that has bigger problems than your Fox News sources can wrap their small intellect around.

Quite aware that each and every failure of Socialism is "Somebody Else's Fault"

You got any successful stories to share about Utopian Socialism. Last time I looked about 2,000,000 people have left Venezuela because they are starving.

Okie

casinterest wrote:

Okie wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Fascism, and a lack of a diversified economy that depended on Oil is to blame more than socialism. Socialism is where everyone agrees to take on the tasks of sharing the resources

Do not let facts get in the way of your diatribe.

Chavez and Maduro are Socialist and proud of it.
Partido Socialista Unido de Venezuela. That is The United Socialist Party of Venezuela.

Maybe you should go visit Venezuela and get Maduro corrected on his affiliation.

Okie

Wow such Trump like intellect there. You are talking about 2 people within a big country that has bigger problems than your Fox News sources can wrap their small intellect around.

Two people whose policies and ideals were praised to the rafters by the likes of Sanders and his fellow travelers.

GF

A really interesting video from Vice last year. Highlights the complete dichotomy between the favored few loyalists and everyone else:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmo5J3RhH8g

Gonzalo wrote:

The question is not “if”, but “how” and “when”. In a perfect, ideal world, the answers should be : peacefully, soon.

In the ideal world, morons like Chavez and Maduro would have never been allowed anywhere near a position of power. I hope he's gone soon though.

Okie wrote:

You got any successful stories to share about Utopian Socialism.

Since you and the rest of the hard right likes to suggest that any and every idea/opinion to the left of yours is "socialism", then the list is actually fairly long. Canada, UK, Ireland, Sweden, Spain, Australia, Denmark, Austria, Norway, Singapore, Holland, Germany, Japan, Chile, France,

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Two people whose policies and ideals were praised to the rafters by the likes of Sanders and his fellow travelers.

GF

Evidence please. Where did Sanders directly praise Chavez or Maduro?

The first person who needs to actually resign is the callous and stolid UN secretary general, who has not said one word about the humanitarian disaster in Venezuela, which everyone agrees is real (even if explaining the cause is biasedly informed by the ideology of the person explaining it). If even on the most basic and politically uncontroversial of matters, one where the UNSG actually holds some direct powers and is not pawn to the incompetence of the UNSC and its permanent members, if even on this humanitarian matter he can't be bothered to take a more voiceful role, he is either heartless, spineless, or just feckless and incompetent. Kofi Annan or Ban Ki-Moon would have been magnitudes more vocal. So far his performance is an embarrassement for Europe.

MIAspotter wrote:

The last Elections carried out in Venezuela have been fraudulent due to the Voting Committee being just a branch of the Ruling party in Venezuela, therefore lacking any transparency and fairness. In 2017 the National Assembly wanted to have a referendum to recall Maduro´s presidency, but the Voting Commitee did not support it, and instead pulled out an arbitrary referendum to create a new Constituent Assembly in order to get rid of the current assembly voted by the people in the 2015 elections.That was a fraud as turnout was mediocre and none of the opposition parties took part, same as the Presidential Elections of last year.

Thanks for making my point to the letter.

If you don't participate and vote NO then that is the same as TWO YES.

Okie

Okie wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Wow such Trump like intellect there. You are talking about 2 people within a big country that has bigger problems than your Fox News sources can wrap their small intellect around.

Quite aware that each and every failure of Socialism is "Somebody Else's Fault"

You got any successful stories to share about Utopian Socialism. Last time I looked about 2,000,000 people have left Venezuela because they are starving.

Okie

How many countries have socialist governments in South America? And how many of them are "Utopian"? Your New York City based Conservative Network never really gives facts about the differences in how each government rises and falls, and the currents underneath it. It is much better for those New York based Conservative networks to just lie to their little blue pill watchers

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Okie wrote:

Do not let facts get in the way of your diatribe.

Chavez and Maduro are Socialist and proud of it.
Partido Socialista Unido de Venezuela. That is The United Socialist Party of Venezuela.

Maybe you should go visit Venezuela and get Maduro corrected on his affiliation.

Okie

Wow such Trump like intellect there. You are talking about 2 people within a big country that has bigger problems than your Fox News sources can wrap their small intellect around.

Two people whose policies and ideals were praised to the rafters by the likes of Sanders and his fellow travelers.

GF

Once again, another lie from the New York City Conservative Channel. Do any of the watchers of that channel ever get out and see the real world? Have they ever been to NYC to see how those "Conservative" pundits live?

Here,

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/must-read/close-the-gaps-disparities-that-threaten-america

And here,

https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/05/americas/gallery/chavez-celebrities/index.html

Erdogen certainly likes him...

ISTANBUL — A bromance is blossoming between Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and his Venezuelan counterpart Nicolás Maduro.

Ankara and Caracas may be separated by 10,000 kilometers, but they are developing increasingly close ties. After a flurry of bilateral visits, trade between the two countries has soared; Erdoğan and Maduro, united by their dislike of the West, appear to get along splendidly.

https://www.politico.eu/article/the-tur ... as-maduro/

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Here,

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/must-read/close-the-gaps-disparities-that-threaten-america

And here,

https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/05/americas/gallery/chavez-celebrities/index.html

Neither of these prove your initial assertion. Perhaps you didn't read them?

Read the bottom where Sanders states the “American Dream can be found in Venezuela. Boatloads of liberal Democrats loved Chavez until it didn’t work out so well.

These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger.

GF

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Read the bottom where Sanders states the “American Dream can be found in Venezuela. Boatloads of liberal Democrats loved Chavez until it didn’t work out so well.

These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger.

GF

Did you read the whole article where he was talking about income inequality? Probably not, because , like our billionaire commerce secretary said today, why don't the poor people just get a loan" you just don't care about context.

casinterest wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Here,

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/must-read/close-the-gaps-disparities-that-threaten-america

And here,

https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/05/americas/gallery/chavez-celebrities/index.html

Neither of these prove your initial assertion. Perhaps you didn't read them?

He has not praised the leaders directly but he supports praise of their economy (which would be included under the "ideals"). This newspaper editorial is posted on Bernies website...

These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger. Who's the banana republic now? https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom ... en-america

Bernie also happened to be the negotiator for the Chavez PR stunt that saw discounted CITGO oil sent to some northeastern states.

On the other hand, he has denounced the rulers, at times.

mham001 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Here,

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/must-read/close-the-gaps-disparities-that-threaten-america

And here,

https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/05/americas/gallery/chavez-celebrities/index.html

Neither of these prove your initial assertion. Perhaps you didn't read them?

He has not praised the leaders directly but he supports praise of their economy (which would be included under the "ideals"). This newspaper editorial is posted on Bernies website...

These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger. Who's the banana republic now? https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom ... en-america

Bernie also happened to be the negotiator for the Chavez PR stunt that saw discounted CITGO oil sent to some northeastern states.

On the other hand, he has denounced the rulers, at times.

So to be crystal clear. .." Praised to the rafters??????????"

alberchico wrote:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46980913

And just now Argentina has joined the U.S. in recognizing Juan Guaidó as interim president. I think this a good move. Maduro has to go no matter what..

I also hope that Juan Guaidó has a good security detail. I have a feeling something bad is going to happen to him, either an arrest or an outright assassination.

The US always bets on the right horse in Latin America. What could go wrong?

Yup, all the Democrats thought the sun shone over Chávez, like they did over Danny Ortega and Fidel Castro. Free education, free health care, the future.

GF

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Yup, all the Democrats thought the sun shone over Chávez, like they did over Danny Ortega and Fidel Castro. Free education, free health care, the future.

GF

"All the democrats"? Really? Citation or GTFO. Maybe you can join Trump's love affair with Lil Kim.

Go research the 90s, look at Sanders, I’m not doing your research especially since all you’re gonna offer is insults followed by revisionist history.

GF

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Go research the 90s, look at Sanders, I’m not doing your research especially since all you’re gonna offer is insults followed by revisionist history.

GF

So you've got nothing. Noted.

Okie wrote:

Thanks for making my point to the letter.

If you don't participate and vote NO then that is the same as TWO YES.

Okie

That works for free and fair elections. When it's not the case, then your NO becomes a YES anyway, because the vote is still a total fraud, but now the participation number has less need to be fudged since you did vote.

casinterest wrote:

PPVRA wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Fascism, and a lack of a diversified economy that depended on Oil is to blame more than socialism. Socialism is where everyone agrees to take on the tasks of sharing the resources. The sharing of resources was forced on all involved. It was much more fascist .

And yes it can happen here, like when a lying racist convinces everyone to waste funds on an ineffective wall that will not solve any real issues associated with 30+ years of illegal immigration.

As stated in the post you quoted, Venezuela has been failing for 15+ years.

Too often you see news articles blaming Venezuela’s condition on oil. That is flatly untrue and is being published by reporters who weren’t paying any attention to Venezuela at the time or with short memories.

Chavez had to deal with high levels of inflation and shortages of products and rising violence even as Venezuela should have been booming thanks to skyrocketing oil prices. Even then, he failed. His regime had its life buoyed a little longer by record oil prices but it has always been unsustainable.

The inflation happened because Chavez put everything into oil, and wen oil crashed in price, the cost of everything else remained the same. They couldn't import what they needed, and then they had hyperinflation as the supplies they did have couldn't cover everyone. Their production also collapsed as they couldn't compete with foreign entities that could produce items cheaper. Oil recovered, but the economy has turned to the black markets, and Facism had replaced the original socialism experiment. Foreign entities ( shell , exxon, airlines, and the like) would no longer make investments to get the economy going due to the bad faith they had in the government. Then came Chavez's death and the next round of oil plummeting, and all was lost for Venezueala.

Oil had a lot to do with the problem. Especially since the people and government put too much faith in it's value.

You're wrong on every single count.

Venezuela has had an inflation problem since the early 2000s and has had one even as oil prices boomed. This is nothing new to Venezuela.

Also, you don't understand how inflation or hyperinflation works. It's got absolutely nothing to do with supply. The shortage of products in Venezuela also has nothing to do with inflation--it's got everything to do with the Venezuelan government's response to high inflation--they think price controls will control the "general rise in price" the problems, price controls only do one thing, they make production unprofitable, so companies cut production, cut investments in the future, layoff workers they can no longer afford, etc, etc. Then, in turn, Chavez/Maduro claim this is an economic war being waged against them, so they start to nationalize even the smallest of companies.

Proof of this narrative I just described you is recorded in 15+ years of newspaper articles from the BBC, The Guardian, and every imaginable source.

Make absolutely no mistake--this experiment in Venezuela has been a total disaster since DAY ONE. Oil only helped it last longer.

PPVRA wrote:

casinterest wrote:

PPVRA wrote:

As stated in the post you quoted, Venezuela has been failing for 15+ years.

Too often you see news articles blaming Venezuela’s condition on oil. That is flatly untrue and is being published by reporters who weren’t paying any attention to Venezuela at the time or with short memories.

Chavez had to deal with high levels of inflation and shortages of products and rising violence even as Venezuela should have been booming thanks to skyrocketing oil prices. Even then, he failed. His regime had its life buoyed a little longer by record oil prices but it has always been unsustainable.

The inflation happened because Chavez put everything into oil, and wen oil crashed in price, the cost of everything else remained the same. They couldn't import what they needed, and then they had hyperinflation as the supplies they did have couldn't cover everyone. Their production also collapsed as they couldn't compete with foreign entities that could produce items cheaper. Oil recovered, but the economy has turned to the black markets, and Facism had replaced the original socialism experiment. Foreign entities ( shell , exxon, airlines, and the like) would no longer make investments to get the economy going due to the bad faith they had in the government. Then came Chavez's death and the next round of oil plummeting, and all was lost for Venezueala.

Oil had a lot to do with the problem. Especially since the people and government put too much faith in it's value.

You're wrong on every single count.

Venezuela has had an inflation problem since the early 2000s and has had one even as oil prices boomed. This is nothing new to Venezuela.

Also, you don't understand how inflation or hyperinflation works. It's got absolutely nothing to do with supply. The shortage of products in Venezuela also has nothing to do with inflation--it's got everything to do with the Venezuelan government's response to high inflation--they think price controls will control the "general rise in price" the problems, price controls only do one thing, they make production unprofitable, so companies cut production, cut investments in the future, layoff workers they can no longer afford, etc, etc. Then, in turn, Chavez/Maduro claim this is an economic war being waged against them, so they start to nationalize even the smallest of companies.

Proof of this narrative I just described you is recorded in 15+ years of newspaper articles from the BBC, The Guardian, and every imaginable source.

Make absolutely no mistake--this experiment in Venezuela has been a total disaster since DAY ONE. Oil only helped it last longer.

I don't dispute the price control issue, because that was built into my cost of everything else remained the same quote . Those imports started costing more, and as you point out the government put in price controls and destroyed profitability. The oil made it more painful, because it was supposed to pay for everything, and it coudn't. It is like giving someone a stipend of 2000 a month, and then ripping it down to 500 a month. People couldn't change how they were living, and they didn't want to. Make no mistake, oil played a huge role in how Venezuela got into it's mess, and also the lack if infrastructure and investment in new oil fields and equipment is why they can't get out. The additional plunge into a Fascist controlled government that tries to appear socialist has only exacerbated the issue.

DeutchLund wrote:

The USA is fighting a losing battle in the middle east when they could be using their troops for a worthwhile cause helping people who actually want it in Venezuela.

As horrible as this sound, the best case scenario here is to let Venezuela play out with minimal intervention. Venezuela needs to be an example to the rest of Latin America, but also the world, that these experiments fail and fail horribly on their own.

There's a huge socialist presence in Latin America and they blame Cuba's failure on the US embargo. They're wrong, but good luck convincing them of that. Venezuela is the perfect example because there have been no embargoes. There is no excuse anymore and most of them know it.

casinterest wrote:

PPVRA wrote:

casinterest wrote:

The inflation happened because Chavez put everything into oil, and wen oil crashed in price, the cost of everything else remained the same. They couldn't import what they needed, and then they had hyperinflation as the supplies they did have couldn't cover everyone. Their production also collapsed as they couldn't compete with foreign entities that could produce items cheaper. Oil recovered, but the economy has turned to the black markets, and Facism had replaced the original socialism experiment. Foreign entities ( shell , exxon, airlines, and the like) would no longer make investments to get the economy going due to the bad faith they had in the government. Then came Chavez's death and the next round of oil plummeting, and all was lost for Venezueala.

Oil had a lot to do with the problem. Especially since the people and government put too much faith in it's value.

You're wrong on every single count.

Venezuela has had an inflation problem since the early 2000s and has had one even as oil prices boomed. This is nothing new to Venezuela.

Also, you don't understand how inflation or hyperinflation works. It's got absolutely nothing to do with supply. The shortage of products in Venezuela also has nothing to do with inflation--it's got everything to do with the Venezuelan government's response to high inflation--they think price controls will control the "general rise in price" the problems, price controls only do one thing, they make production unprofitable, so companies cut production, cut investments in the future, layoff workers they can no longer afford, etc, etc. Then, in turn, Chavez/Maduro claim this is an economic war being waged against them, so they start to nationalize even the smallest of companies.

Proof of this narrative I just described you is recorded in 15+ years of newspaper articles from the BBC, The Guardian, and every imaginable source.

Make absolutely no mistake--this experiment in Venezuela has been a total disaster since DAY ONE. Oil only helped it last longer.

I don't dispute the price control issue, because that was built into my cost of everything else remained the same quote . Those imports started costing more, and as you point out the government put in price controls and destroyed profitability. The oil made it more painful, because it was supposed to pay for everything, and it coudn't. It is like giving someone a stipend of 2000 a month, and then ripping it down to 500 a month. People couldn't change how they were living, and they didn't want to. Make no mistake, oil played a huge role in how Venezuela got into it's mess, and also the lack if infrastructure and investment in new oil fields and equipment is why they can't get out. The additional plunge into a Fascist controlled government that tries to appear socialist has only exacerbated the issue.

The price of nothing has remained the same. Everything has gone waaaaay up. Venezuela was a disaster long before the oil price collapsed, it was a disaster going back at least to 2003, prior to the skyrocketing of oil prices.

There is no excuse.

PPVRA wrote:

casinterest wrote:

PPVRA wrote:

You're wrong on every single count.

Venezuela has had an inflation problem since the early 2000s and has had one even as oil prices boomed. This is nothing new to Venezuela.

Also, you don't understand how inflation or hyperinflation works. It's got absolutely nothing to do with supply. The shortage of products in Venezuela also has nothing to do with inflation--it's got everything to do with the Venezuelan government's response to high inflation--they think price controls will control the "general rise in price" the problems, price controls only do one thing, they make production unprofitable, so companies cut production, cut investments in the future, layoff workers they can no longer afford, etc, etc. Then, in turn, Chavez/Maduro claim this is an economic war being waged against them, so they start to nationalize even the smallest of companies.

Proof of this narrative I just described you is recorded in 15+ years of newspaper articles from the BBC, The Guardian, and every imaginable source.

Make absolutely no mistake--this experiment in Venezuela has been a total disaster since DAY ONE. Oil only helped it last longer.

I don't dispute the price control issue, because that was built into my cost of everything else remained the same quote . Those imports started costing more, and as you point out the government put in price controls and destroyed profitability. The oil made it more painful, because it was supposed to pay for everything, and it coudn't. It is like giving someone a stipend of 2000 a month, and then ripping it down to 500 a month. People couldn't change how they were living, and they didn't want to. Make no mistake, oil played a huge role in how Venezuela got into it's mess, and also the lack if infrastructure and investment in new oil fields and equipment is why they can't get out. The additional plunge into a Fascist controlled government that tries to appear socialist has only exacerbated the issue.

The price of nothing has remained the same. Everything has gone waaaaay up. Venezuela was a disaster long before the oil price collapsed, it was a disaster going back at least to 2003, prior to the skyrocketing of oil prices.

There is no excuse.

The price of imports. Something Venezuela depends on have remained relatively consistent in US dollars. But in a market internally, those prices have been increasing. This is part of the issue with a devalued dollar when everyone looses faith in the markets, and oil is no longer able to help.

casinterest wrote:

PPVRA wrote:

casinterest wrote:

I don't dispute the price control issue, because that was built into my cost of everything else remained the same quote . Those imports started costing more, and as you point out the government put in price controls and destroyed profitability. The oil made it more painful, because it was supposed to pay for everything, and it coudn't. It is like giving someone a stipend of 2000 a month, and then ripping it down to 500 a month. People couldn't change how they were living, and they didn't want to. Make no mistake, oil played a huge role in how Venezuela got into it's mess, and also the lack if infrastructure and investment in new oil fields and equipment is why they can't get out. The additional plunge into a Fascist controlled government that tries to appear socialist has only exacerbated the issue.

The price of nothing has remained the same. Everything has gone waaaaay up. Venezuela was a disaster long before the oil price collapsed, it was a disaster going back at least to 2003, prior to the skyrocketing of oil prices.

There is no excuse.

The price of imports. Something Venezuela depends on have remained relatively consistent in US dollars. But in a market internally, those prices have been increasing. This is part of the issue with a devalued dollar when everyone looses faith in the markets, and oil is no longer able to help.

The price of imports skyrockets even worse than domestic goods.

US dollars have not experience hyperinflation.

If Venezuela "dolarizes" their economy tomorrow, hyperinflation will be gone nearly instantly. Inflation is not a supply/demand problem of goods and services.

The good news about hyperinflation is that it can be controlled very quickly. Alas, what needs to be done would be ideologically contrary to the socialist ideologies. And because of that arrogance, Venezuelan's have and will continue to suffer.

PPVRA wrote:

casinterest wrote:

PPVRA wrote:

The price of nothing has remained the same. Everything has gone waaaaay up. Venezuela was a disaster long before the oil price collapsed, it was a disaster going back at least to 2003, prior to the skyrocketing of oil prices.

There is no excuse.

The price of imports. Something Venezuela depends on have remained relatively consistent in US dollars. But in a market internally, those prices have been increasing. This is part of the issue with a devalued dollar when everyone looses faith in the markets, and oil is no longer able to help.

The price of imports skyrockets even worse than domestic goods.

US dollars have not experience hyperinflation.

If Venezuela "dolarizes" their economy tomorrow, hyperinflation will be gone nearly instantly. Inflation is not a supply/demand problem of goods and services.

We are talking about the same thing , my point is that oil is the main issue as it was the "gold" standard by which Venezuela initially chose to finance Chavez's tax reforms. Remember Venezuelan's beleived they were the wealthiest country because of oil. ( even though most were below the poverty line). The government took over oil, and destroyed it, and the economy.