Many articles about the recent video statement from Enders:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -leave-u-k

Airbus' future in the UK uncertain if Brexit talks continue as they are. This is something we've been anticipating. My big question, where does this leave RR and its relationship with Airbus? Maybe this will push the timeline for Airbus trying to acquire RR?

It looks like we will face some hard Brexit. So what is this statement good for now?
I understand their frustration but the world will not turn around on Airbus's request now.

The cooperation with the UK facilities has been a big win-win over the years and you can sense the frustration with Enders. This seems a coordinated Airbus wide (incl. UK) outcry. A complicated situation, where's Nigel Farage when you need him..

Noshow wrote:

It looks like we will face some hard Brexit. So what is this statement good for now?
I understand their frustration but the world will not turn around on Airbus's request now.

Not to get too much into politics, but it's more than Airbus who is threatening to pull out of the UK (or has already done so). Airbus is just the latest company publicly warning of such move.

and it is all the good hard tech and internationally traded services industries. The UK economy is being hollowed out.

To get BREXIT over the line they are diverting attention toward the Irish border going hard whether the EU and most especially the Irish like it or not and that distracts from the damage that is being done to the UK economy, That will be their big "WIN" over those nasty Europeans.

Noshow wrote:

It looks like we will face some hard Brexit. So what is this statement good for now?
I understand their frustration but the world will not turn around on Airbus's request now.

Indeed it seems the hard Brexit is upon us, the enthusiastic leap off the cliff discussed for months now on our non-av forum.

Enders could not have put it more bluntly:

“Make no mistake, there are plenty of countries out there who would love to build the wings for Airbus aircraft,” Enders said.

Now, cue up the ginormous France vs Germany squabble over who gets to build wings for Airbus aircraft.

Thankfully for Enders he'll be on garden leave by the time that volcano erupts.

(PS: There's plenty of room to expand at BFM. Just sayin'...)

Unfortunately, this lose-lose Situation is getting more and more likely. j

I really really don't get why UK believes Brexit is a good thing.

Just goes to show that Airbus is still the politically-controlled entity it has always been (an arm of Franco-German industrial policy) and not the private company its supporters pretend it is. There is no reason whatsoever for Brexit to be an issue for Airbus unless France and Germany decide to act as spoiled brats and impose massive tariffs on semi-finished industrial assemblies (which is what wings are) from outside the EU..

Airbus, under the command of their French and German masters, has been angling for an excuse to get wing production out of the UK for a long time. If that happens, the UK should just retaliate by nationalizing the facilities of Airbus UK (including all machines, tools, assemblies and drawings) and impose an export tariff on large commercial jet engines to the EU, to put the final nail in the coffin of Airbus' widebody ambitions. You know the French would not hesitate to do something like that to someone that tries to move industrial production out of France.

Pyrex wrote:

Just goes to show that Airbus is still the politically-controlled entity it has always been (an arm of Franco-German industrial policy) and not the private company its supporters pretend it is. There is no reason whatsoever for Brexit to be an issue for Airbus unless France and Germany decide to act as spoiled brats and impose massive tariffs on semi-finished industrial assemblies (which is what wings are) from outside the EU..

Airbus, under the command of their French and German masters, has been angling for an excuse to get wing production out of the UK for a long time. If that happens, the UK should just retaliate by nationalizing the facilities of Airbus UK (including all machines, tools, assemblies and drawings) and impose an export tariff on large commercial jet engines to the EU, to put the final nail in the coffin of Airbus' widebody ambitions. You know the French would not hesitate to do something like that to someone that tries to move industrial production out of France.

Is this a Brexiteer parody response or your held belief?

Pyrex wrote:

Just goes to show that Airbus is still the politically-controlled entity it has always been (an arm of Franco-German industrial policy) and not the private company its supporters pretend it is. There is no reason whatsoever for Brexit to be an issue for Airbus unless France and Germany decide to act as spoiled brats and impose massive tariffs on semi-finished industrial assemblies (which is what wings are) from outside the EU..

Airbus, under the command of their French and German masters, has been angling for an excuse to get wing production out of the UK for a long time. If that happens, the UK should just retaliate by nationalizing the facilities of Airbus UK (including all machines, tools, assemblies and drawings) and impose an export tariff on large commercial jet engines to the EU, to put the final nail in the coffin of Airbus' widebody ambitions. You know the French would not hesitate to do something like that to someone that tries to move industrial production out of France.

There we go, you just sunk that thread into a hard-politic discussion.

Airbus as a company will be directly impacted because of the uncertain future of the continental Europe citizens who are currently working at Airbus UK, because of the borders that will be put in place, etc.

But what about the other companies who have already left the UK, or thinking about leaving? Are they also "under the command of their French and German masters"???

leghorn wrote:

Pyrex wrote:

Just goes to show that Airbus is still the politically-controlled entity it has always been (an arm of Franco-German industrial policy) and not the private company its supporters pretend it is. There is no reason whatsoever for Brexit to be an issue for Airbus unless France and Germany decide to act as spoiled brats and impose massive tariffs on semi-finished industrial assemblies (which is what wings are) from outside the EU..

Airbus, under the command of their French and German masters, has been angling for an excuse to get wing production out of the UK for a long time. If that happens, the UK should just retaliate by nationalizing the facilities of Airbus UK (including all machines, tools, assemblies and drawings) and impose an export tariff on large commercial jet engines to the EU, to put the final nail in the coffin of Airbus' widebody ambitions. You know the French would not hesitate to do something like that to someone that tries to move industrial production out of France.

Is this a Brexiteer parody response or your held belief?

It's a Brexiter troll response.

TheSonntag wrote:

I really really don't get why UK believes Brexit is a good thing.

We ask similar questions over the choice for elected leaders on this side of the pond, right now more than ever.

Brexit is a political discussion... And why on Earth would the UK expel the continental European citizens working at Airbus UK? Not even in the most hard-core Brexit proclamations was that ever under consideration.

And if France can threaten ArcelorMittal with nationalizing a steel plant from them, why can't the UK do the same to Airbus?

Its all hot air, It would take Airbus many years to move their UK manufacturing operations abroad, I can understand that there may be minor delays and more paperwork as a result of Brexit, but compared to moving the World's largest wing making facility which has been built up over 40 years its insignificant.

Of course, where it might have an impact is in the location of facilities for future wing projects, right from the day BAe sold their stake, I've always foreseen the day that French or German influecne might see future work going elsewhere.

Pyrex wrote:

And if France can threaten ArcelorMittal with nationalizing a steel plant from them, why can't the UK do the same to Airbus?

Can they nationalise the IP and would they still continue to build the wings that Airbus isn't going to buy from them anymore?

Pyrex wrote:

Brexit is a political discussion... And why on Earth would the UK expel the continental European citizens working at Airbus UK? Not even in the most hard-core Brexit proclamations was that ever under consideration.

And if France can threaten ArcelorMittal with nationalizing a steel plant from them, why can't the UK do the same to Airbus?

Expel EU citizens ? right from the start they were offered the chance if they had been resident for 5 years to apply for settled status at a cost of £65, those who have been here less than that have been promised that they can remain until 5 years and then be granted residency. as of last Monday even the £65 fee has been scrapped.

Pyrex wrote:

Brexit is a political discussion... And why on Earth would the UK expel the continental European citizens working at Airbus UK? Not even in the most hard-core Brexit proclamations was that ever under consideration.

Because nothing of the contrary has been written in law. So, this is always a possibility that exists, and not a small one.
And even if/when it is written in law, laws can be changed to fit political goal.

Pyrex wrote:

And if France can threaten ArcelorMittal with nationalizing a steel plant from them, why can't the UK do the same to Airbus?

Let the UK nationalize the Airbus factory then; but Airbus might not be customer anymore anyway...
France threatened to nationalize an ArcelorMittal plant as that plant was kept open thanks to massive public money poured in to modernize it, with promise to keep it open for many years... just for them to turn around and try to close it shortly after (and especially after having pocketed the money).

.. this wasn't written on a bus when the Brexiteers were dancing in the street.

Nigel will deny until the sh.t hits the (Trent) fan and he'll blame the "EU Bureaucrats" for everything anyway
A percentage will belief if you repeat it a few times & ignore reality. Here he explains Williams how it really is..

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/978817/Brexit-news-airbus-Nigel-Farage-move-threat-latest-UK-Brexit-video

Pyrex wrote:

Brexit is a political discussion... And why on Earth would the UK expel the continental European citizens working at Airbus UK? Not even in the most hard-core Brexit proclamations was that ever under consideration.

Because that will happen if we see a hard Brexit. No free movement of people between workplaces in the EU and UK. Everybody stopped investing in the UK. The biggest industry, the banks, are fleeing. Car companies are reducing personal and cutting production. And brexitiers declared, that it is only propaganda when the aircraft industry is warning.
Brexit is a religion, based on beliefs, not open to discussing the realities.

Why wouldn't the EU just sign new trade agreements with the UK as an independent country moving forward? Is this all just spite toward Brits voting to take their ball and leave?

I am really mystified by European politics/positions on this. I assume the EU wanted to exact a fortune from the British treasury in order to allow them to go, from what little I've read.

texl1649 wrote:

Why wouldn't the EU just sign new trade agreements with the UK as an independent country moving forward? Is this all just spite toward Brits voting to take their ball and leave?

Because the EU was stabbed in the back; so they decided (rightfully in my opinion) to not make it easy for the UK.
Trade agreements take years to negotiate and sign; the UK was offered a proposal, they refused it.

texl1649 wrote:

I am really mystified by European politics/positions on this. I assume the EU wanted to exact a fortune from the British treasury in order to allow them to go, from what little I've read.

The EU is just trying to get the money that's owed to them, by agreement between the UK and the EU; money that the UK has yet to pay.

I felt sick reading some of the comments on their YouTube video page.

Japan agreement took an eternity to work out.
UK as member of E.U. agreed and voted on plans for E.U. budget. You don't get to walk away from the table without picking up your share of the tab and certainly don't get to walk away from the table while demanding preferential treatment in perpetuity going forward.

Airbus can export parts to non EU China and the non EU US and build aircraft there and legally hand them over in foreign countries as their original EASA certified "EU made" products. It can't be unsolvable to keep the UK in the loop somehow. On the long run I still see them losing workshares.
The US as a supplier contributes -depending on the program- up to 50 percent of the value of Airbus aircraft including those engines so even a non EU UK could do similar?

texl1649 wrote:

Why wouldn't the EU just sign new trade agreements with the UK as an independent country moving forward? Is this all just spite toward Brits voting to take their ball and leave?

I am really mystified by European politics/positions on this. I assume the EU wanted to exact a fortune from the British treasury in order to allow them to go, from what little I've read.

Being part of the EU British industries have the benefits of free trade, research institutions etc. but also had to comply with EU regulations. E..g. on quality, compliance, exports. Somehow the Brexit leaders felt they could have the goodies & leave the room on the requirements. Striking separate deals with all EU members, letting in those who they like only etc.

That would create unfair competition for countries industries based in the rest of the EU. Not gonna happen. I mentioned "Brexit Leaders" because normal voters apparently had a very average idea on Brexit consequences.

I'm sure Netherlands industry & government would be open to invest in a new automated A3X0 wings project / assembly line.

And of course, the UK can still retaliate by arresting almost the entire current and prior Airbus leadership team for corruption. Their anti-corruption laws are even more powerful and far-reaching than the FCPA.

This is the we'll fight them on a million fronts BREXIT strategy; "don't mess with us becos we're nasty motherf*ckers"? At some stage hollow threats have to be some for what they are which is hollow threats. companies like Vauxhall or Ford announcing job losses in UK are not hollow threats.

And of course, the UK can still retaliate by arresting almost the entire current and prior Airbus leadership team for corruption. Their anti-corruption laws are even more powerful and far-reaching than the FCPA.

Not sure if they'll have sleepless nights over this threat.

mjoelnir wrote:

Because that will happen if we see a hard Brexit. No free movement of people between workplaces in the EU and UK. Everybody stopped investing in the UK. The biggest industry, the banks, are fleeing. Car companies are reducing personal and cutting production. And brexitiers declared, that it is only propaganda when the aircraft industry is warning.

There may not be any future free movement of people between the EU and UK after Brexit, and that was in fact one of if not the main reason for Brexit in the first place, but absolutely under no circumstances will any EU citizen already residing in the UK, specifically any employed in a job such as Airbus, ever be expelled due to a hard or no deal Brexit. The UK, however, already expels EU citizens who are homeless/ 'rough sleepers' or those who have been convicted of serious crimes.

The end of free movement means that in the futures any EU Airbus employee would have to apply for a work permit if they were transferred to the UK, but that should be relatively straightforward as it would be an ICT (inter company transfer) and there currently is no limit to the number of people who can come come through this route.

The end of free movement also means that any current Airbus employees in the UK who are EU citizens will have to register with the Home Office. As other posters have already stated, the £65 has now been withdrawn, as was recently announced by Theresa May. The registration process, once again should be relatively easy and straightforward, but knowing the UK Home Office it could turn into a nightmare, but I doubt any Airbus employee will end up leaving the UK voluntarily because of any such hassle with registration.

mjoelnir wrote:

Brexit is a religion, based on beliefs, not open to discussing the realities.

And one could also say that the EU is a religion, based on beliefs, not open to discussing to realities !!! It certainly can go both ways.

I don't want to get too far off topic here, but as far as I am concerned the major issue with the EU, which ultimately led to Brexit, is that the EU has clung steadfastly to the original Four Freedoms (the movement of goods, people, services and capital over borders), even though as an entity it has changed drastically over time, the most significant difference between the accession of 10 new Eastern European countries that all used to be behind the Iron Curtain during the Cold War and that have considerably weaker economies and significantly lower wages than the wealthier EU nations in the West. Those Western European nations, in particular the UK, have been hit incredibly hard by mass immigration from those Eastern European countries (and also more recently from Italy, Spain and Portugal). David Cameron went to Brussels and asked for a concession on the freedom of movement of people and was given a resounding NO !!! He then returned to the UK, put the matter to a vote, and we therefor have Brexit. Ultimately, as far as I'm concerned, if the EU had allowed for some flexibility with the freedom of movement of people, which really would have been the reasonable thing for them to do considering the situation, we wouldn't be in this situation now.

So in that sense the EU is in fact a religion based on beliefs i.e. the Four Freedoms, which they refuse to alter in any way, no matter how unrealistic it is to enforce them on every single constituent member state in the exact same way.

You know that the UK didn't have to open up their labour market so quickly to EU-accession countries. Germany didn't. A number of countries didn't. UK Government did that to get cheap labour. Your own politicians did that. Irish Government did too as they wanted labourers and people to fuel the housing bubble.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 59325.html

leghorn wrote:

You know that the UK didn't have to open up their labour market so quickly to EU-accession countries. Germany didn't. A number of countries didn't. UK Government did that to get cheap labour. Your own politicians did that. Irish Government did too as they wanted labourers and people to fuel the housing bubble.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 59325.html

Yes and now Germany and Sweden invite hundreds of thousands from around the globe to come to their countries which has resulted in massive socio-economic pressures and friction.

leghorn wrote:

You know that the UK didn't have to open up their labour market so quickly to EU-accession countries. Germany didn't. A number of countries didn't. UK Government did that to get cheap labour. Your own politicians did that. Irish Government did too as they wanted labourers and people to fuel the housing bubble.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 59325.html

Well the story is that the UK thought that the other big EU economies such as Germany, France, Italy and Spain would also open their labour markets immediately. Obviously that didn't happen.

Also, the predictions for EU migrants to the UK from the A8 countries were only supposed to be 13,000 a year, and they got those estimates severely wrong with the number being closer to 300,000 a year !!!

. . . and supposedly big businesses in the UK were whispering in Tony Blairs ear at the time to get him to not impose restrictions immediately.

Regardless of what initial decisions were made, the UK changed course very quickly when they realised their mistakes. When the A2 joined in 2007 (Romania and Bulgaria) the UK did in fact impose the full 7 year transition period for citizens of those countries.

The UK has a very stratified social class system. There is a huge gap socially, culturally and economically between the wealthy business owners and the working class (this exists everywhere but in the UK it is particularly profound). Of course the business owners wanted the cheap Eastern European labour, but soon enough the working class realised they were being outcompeted by migrants who worked twice as hard for twice as little because they could save up for a few years and buy a house back home. Ultimately the UK is a democracy however, and there are far more of the working class than there are business owners, therefore : Brexit !!!

WayexTDI wrote:

It's a Brexiter troll response.

It used to be that the Milos were to be ignored, but sadly trolls cant be ignored anymore

FlapsOne wrote:

leghorn wrote:

You know that the UK didn't have to open up their labour market so quickly to EU-accession countries. Germany didn't. A number of countries didn't. UK Government did that to get cheap labour. Your own politicians did that. Irish Government did too as they wanted labourers and people to fuel the housing bubble.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 59325.html

Yes and now Germany and Sweden invite hundreds of thousands from around the globe to come to their countries which has resulted in massive socio-economic pressures and friction.

not really. I live in Germany. There are issues but not the sort of issues you see blown out of proportion by Brexiteers. Sweden is different. They've got masochistic tendencies.

westgate wrote:

leghorn wrote:

You know that the UK didn't have to open up their labour market so quickly to EU-accession countries. Germany didn't. A number of countries didn't. UK Government did that to get cheap labour. Your own politicians did that. Irish Government did too as they wanted labourers and people to fuel the housing bubble.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 59325.html

Well the story is that the UK thought that the other big EU economies such as Germany, France, Italy and Spain would also open their labour markets immediately. Obviously that didn't happen.

Also, the predictions for EU migrants to the UK from the A8 countries were only supposed to be 13,000 a year, and they got those estimates severely wrong with the number being closer to 300,000 a year !!!

. . . and supposedly big businesses in the UK were whispering in Tony Blairs ear at the time to get him to not impose restrictions immediately.

Regardless of what initial decisions were made, the UK changed course very quickly when they realised their mistakes. When the A2 joined in 2007 (Romania and Bulgaria) the UK did in fact impose the full 7 year transition period for citizens of those countries.

The UK has a very stratified social class system. There is a huge gap socially, culturally and economically between the wealthy business owners and the working class (this exists everywhere but in the UK it is particularly profound). Of course the business owners wanted the cheap Eastern European labour, but soon enough the working class realised they were being outcompeted by migrants who worked twice as hard for twice as little because they could save up for a few years and buy a house back home. Ultimately the UK is a democracy however, and there are far more of the working class than there are business owners, therefore : Brexit !!!

So you admit that Brexiteers are unfairly apportioning blame to the E.U. for a problem of their own creation.
You know the UK has very few obligations to support Europeans in the UK who haven't the means to support themselves? Germany doesn't do it.

Revelation wrote:

Now, cue up the ginormous France vs Germany squabble over who gets to build wings for Airbus aircraft.

Thankfully for Enders he'll be on garden leave by the time that volcano erupts.

(PS: There's plenty of room to expand at BFM. Just sayin'...)

They'll build the left wings in France and the right wings in Germany

keesje wrote:

I'm sure Netherlands industry & government would be open to invest in a new automated A3X0 wings project / assembly line.

I hear Washington State gives enormous tax breaks to aerospace businesses.

Just sayin'...

KLDC10 wrote:

They'll build the left wings in France and the right wings in Germany

Both funny and true on so many levels!

Reminds me of Solomon splitting the baby...

WayexTDI wrote:

texl1649 wrote:

Why wouldn't the EU just sign new trade agreements with the UK as an independent country moving forward? Is this all just spite toward Brits voting to take their ball and leave?

Because the EU was stabbed in the back; so they decided (rightfully in my opinion) to not make it easy for the UK.
Trade agreements take years to negotiate and sign; the UK was offered a proposal, they refused it.

Exactly. The EU was and is willing to give the UK an FTA, they basically can chose one of the menus of all those options that

a) don't violate WTO rules and
b) don't violate existing EU treaties
c) doesn't impede any members vital interests (RoI/NI border)

Norway, Switzerland, Ukraine, Turkey or Canada model. Problem is that the UK doesn't want any of the possible options.
It's practically sh*t talking a vegan restaurant because they don't have steak on the menue.

texl1649 wrote:

I am really mystified by European politics/positions on this. I assume the EU wanted to exact a fortune from the British treasury in order to allow them to go, from what little I've read.

The EU is just trying to get the money that's owed to them, by agreement between the UK and the EU; money that the UK has yet to pay.

Like pensions for EU employees, that quite possibly worked all their professional life for UK interests via the EU. Those can't be just stuck to the remaining EU members...

Best regards
Thomas

keesje wrote:

The cooperation with the UK facilities has been a big win-win over the years and you can sense the frustration with Enders. This seems a coordinated Airbus wide (incl. UK) outcry. A complicated situation, where's Nigel Farage when you need him..

No need for Nigel. Boris will tell him fu.. business

Revelation wrote:

keesje wrote:

I'm sure Netherlands industry & government would be open to invest in a new automated A3X0 wings project / assembly line.

I hear Washington State gives enormous tax breaks to aerospace businesses.

Just sayin'...

I am not so sure they are interested in having more vital parts on the other side of a customs border than they already have...

Best regards
Thomas

Pyrex wrote:

Just goes to show that Airbus is still the politically-controlled entity it has always been

When someone thinks you might be an idiot, its better to keep quiet rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt.


So on the 1st of April - with absolutely no agreements in place between England and France - what do Airbus do when they need to ship their wingsets to the FAL?

Whats the customs tariffs? Whats the inspection procedures? Who does the inspections? Can UK or EU nationals accompany the parts and be allowed back in jurisdiction?

Or what about parts for the wings? Fasteners for instance. Whats the customs arrangements for those?

Given the utter ineptitude of the British govt to date - should Airbus be stockpiling several years of parts and assemblies on either side of the Channel to be able to continue operating while waiting for the govt to give them an answer?



A no-deal Brexit would be very bad - but not be the end of the world - if both sides had several years notice and worked to put arrangements in place on the basis of no deal. But no deal with a few days notice is utter madness. If no-deal exit happens this March, the hardcore Brexiteers will have blood on their hands (those dying in hospitals due to lack of drugs as a result of no arrangements in place).

TheSonntag wrote:

Unfortunately, this lose-lose Situation is getting more and more likely. j

I really really don't get why UK believes Brexit is a good thing.

I agree. And the Brits forgot about Europe’s past it seems.

I’m sorry but if they keep believing that Brexit is good for them, then I will enjoy watching as companies are leaving the UK.

Pyrex wrote:

Just goes to show that Airbus is still the politically-controlled entity it has always been (an arm of Franco-German industrial policy) and not the private company its supporters pretend it is. There is no reason whatsoever for Brexit to be an issue for Airbus unless France and Germany decide to act as spoiled brats and impose massive tariffs on semi-finished industrial assemblies (which is what wings are) from outside the EU..

Airbus, under the command of their French and German masters, has been angling for an excuse to get wing production out of the UK for a long time. If that happens, the UK should just retaliate by nationalizing the facilities of Airbus UK (including all machines, tools, assemblies and drawings) and impose an export tariff on large commercial jet engines to the EU, to put the final nail in the coffin of Airbus' widebody ambitions. You know the French would not hesitate to do something like that to someone that tries to move industrial production out of France.

You’d have a very good story.... if it wasn’t for the fact that hundreds of other companies are also leaving the UK, such as Dyson, HSBC, Sony, etc. Please don’t tell us they’re all politically controlled

tommy1808 wrote:

Revelation wrote:

keesje wrote:

I'm sure Netherlands industry & government would be open to invest in a new automated A3X0 wings project / assembly line.

I hear Washington State gives enormous tax breaks to aerospace businesses.

Just sayin'...

I am not so sure they are interested in having more vital parts on the other side of a customs border than they already have...

Yet the last two FALs were set up on the "other" side of a customs border.

I'm definitely not predicting that the US will be chosen to host a new wing factory.

I am predicting a turbulent path to deciding what to do next once a hard brexit happens, which looks to be the likely result.

It's hard to see one good answer.

Two factories (to keep the biggest power brokers DE and FR happy) is problematic.

One factory in "neutral" territory also is problematic.

Politics WILL be involved, and that makes the outcome even more difficult to predict and more difficult for Airbus to control.

I guess we'll find out what Faury is made of.

leghorn wrote:

So you admit that Brexiteers are unfairly apportioning blame to the E.U. for a problem of their own creation.

What you just wrote makes absolutely no sense.

Are you saying it was Brexiteers that didn't impose initial restrictions on Eastern European workers accessing the UK labour market ?

Is Tony Blair a Brexiteer now ?!?! I can assure that he is not and never was, and is in fact the biggest proponent of the UK remaining in the EU.

If you read my post more carefully you would see how I explain that the UK is made up of many different and opposing factions. Big businesses in the UK pushed the UK government to open the labour market so they could have access to cheap foreign labour. The working class in the UK i.e. not big business and not the government, didn't like this because of the competition this created for them in the labour market and the pressure it placed on public resources such as schools and hospitals etc.

Eventually it became very clear to the UK government that they were going to have to start reducing immigration or get voted out of power. The prime minister at the time, David Cameron, went to Brussels and asked for exemptions on the freedom of movement of people and was refused. In order for his party, the Conservatives, to remain in power, he offered a referendum on the EU. If he had not offered a referendum, many Conservative voters would have voted for UKIP instead, and this may have led to Labour winning the election. This tactic worked, and the Conservatives won the general election in 2015. As promised David Cameron held a referendum on continued membership of the EU, and the people of the UK voted to leave.

Nothing that happened initially was democratic, the UK government did not consult with the British people first. There was no vote or referendum to allow immediate access to the UK labour market for Eastern Europeans. When it was however put to a democratic vote, which happened only after unsuccessful negotiations with the EU, the result was Brexit.

There are many roots to the problem. Most of which are local to England and the English that live there.

Amiga500 wrote:

There are many roots to the problem. Most of which are local to England and the English that live there.

That should really say 'which are local to the UK and the British that live there'

. . . but anyway, regardless of the roots of the problem the ultimate factor that tipped the scales in favour of a Brexit vote was the EU refusing to allow any adjustment of its sacred 'Four Freedoms'. If the EU had given the UK some concession on freedom of movement of people then Brexit likely would not have happened. Ultimately the EU needs to be very well aware of any internal conflicts that are occurring within in any of its member states that are ultimately caused by the EU's own rules. Because if they aren't careful about this, then it can lead to situations like Brexit. Certain members of British society exploited freedom of movement for their own benefit, however they were only a minority, and when the matter came to a public vote, the majority clearly voted against freedom of movement. It is no secret that the UK traditionally has very strong class divisions, just compare it to France who chopped the heads off their monarchs 300 years ago, and who currently take to streets in violent protests against any new laws they don't like. The EU has a 'one-size-fits-all' policy and unfortunately not every European country is going to fit.

westgate wrote:

Amiga500 wrote:

There are many roots to the problem. Most of which are local to England and the English that live there.

That should really say 'which are local to the UK and the British that live there'

. . . but anyway, regardless of the roots of the problem the ultimate factor that tipped the scales in favour of a Brexit vote was the EU refusing to allow any adjustment of its sacred 'Four Freedoms'. If the EU had given the UK some concession on freedom of movement of people then Brexit likely would not have happened. Ultimately the EU needs to be very well aware of any internal conflicts that are occurring within in any of its member states that are ultimately caused by the EU's own rules. Because if they aren't careful about this, then it can lead to situations like Brexit. Certain members of British society exploited freedom of movement for their own benefit, however they were only a minority, and when the matter came to a public vote, the majority clearly voted against freedom of movement. It is no secret that the UK traditionally has very strong class divisions, just compare it to France who chopped the heads off their monarchs 300 years ago, and who currently take to streets in violent protests against any new laws they don't like. The EU has a 'one-size-fits-all' policy and unfortunately not every European country is going to fit.

The UK already had been given several concessions by the EU:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opt-out ... pean_Union

It’s not really realistic or fair to keep asking for concessions when the whole idea with the EU is solidarity. Sometimes you win some and sometimes you lose some.

westgate wrote:

leghorn wrote:

So you admit that Brexiteers are unfairly apportioning blame to the E.U. for a problem of their own creation.

What you just wrote makes absolutely no sense.

No, you just don't understand the point. Britain has been in decline for decades. Before it was the hippies, then the communist miners, the the Thatcherites, the the Blairites and now you are rounding on D'immigrants let in to the Country by who? Couldn't be youse lot cause that'd be treachery. Earlier in their lives all those who voted to leave the E.U. could have mailed their public representatives and complained about the things that ARE WRONG WITH BRITAIN and moved to fix them instead they have chosen to blame all that is wrong with Britain on the E.U.
The E.U. didn't turn the cities of England in to the bleak violent soulless hellholes that they are. That's a problem of yere own making so stop bitching and cribbing to the rest of us and what's more, ye won't be forgiven if more people lose their lives in Northern Ireland as a result of the agitation ye created.
I'm sick of ye Brexiteers; toxic the lot of ye.

westgate wrote:

Amiga500 wrote:

There are many roots to the problem. Most of which are local to England and the English that live there.

That should really say 'which are local to the UK and the British that live there'

. . . but anyway, regardless of the roots of the problem the ultimate factor that tipped the scales in favour of a Brexit vote was the EU refusing to allow any adjustment of its sacred 'Four Freedoms'. If the EU had given the UK some concession on freedom of movement of people then Brexit likely would not have happened.

But that is only caused by the lack of a resident registration system in the UK. All other EU countries have one and this means if you stay longer than 3 months in the country you have to register and if you can not show proof that you have a job or the monetary means to not need one, you can not register and have to leave. So instead of introducing a resident registration, the UK demanded an opt out of the 4 freedoms in general, which meant people from certain countries could not even apply for a job and could not travel freely (as tourists or on business) to the UK.