FTMCPIUS
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Schultz thinking of running as independent

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:04 am

 
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Aesma
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:39 am

I don't know much about Starbucks, there are plenty of shops here but I'm not interested in paying crazy prices for "coffee" with "stuff" in it, so I've never been to one. However I do know they use every trick in the book to pay as little tax as possible, in fact they have never paid any tax in France in 15 years, and are probably going to end up having to pay, with a fine on top.

Looks pretty much like a more polished Trump to me.
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salttee
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:46 am

Anybody who wants to run for president of the US without getting a party's nomination is incredibly self centered.

Beyond self centered: recklessly self centered to the point of being destructive.
 
Flighty
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:19 am

Good. I think he is a good guy. Both the parties we have became unutterably rancid to the core. I believe both parties are being cleansed by fire right now. But if Howard helps that process along, fine.

In the last race, there was no strong candidate. Both main party candidates were mind-blowingly awful. An actual good third party candidate could have won that race. Schultz is incredibly thoughtful and impressive.

As for Bill Kristol quoted in the above piece, I would take Trump any day over Bill Kristol. I would raise the possibility that Trump is more moral, and also more intelligent, and has a more correct view of global affairs than Bill Kristol, and people like him.
 
salttee
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:28 am

Flighty, In the US two party system a third party candidate will not and cannot ever win the presidential election. All a third party candidate can do is split the vote of the party which holds the most similarity to the third party candidate, giving the election to the other side.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:54 am

salttee wrote:
Flighty, In the US two party system a third party candidate will not and cannot ever win the presidential election. All a third party candidate can do is split the vote of the party which holds the most similarity to the third party candidate, giving the election to the other side.

Unfortunately, you're right. An independent/3rd party would only win if they had wealth somewhere between that of Bruce Wayne and Scrooge McDuck.

Obama/McCain in 2008 were the last truly great nominees from either side where the country would benefit from either being elected. I hope we see a combo like that sooner rather than later. I don't think we'll see that in the Trump era however (I think Trump will take 2020 because I don't think the Democrats will put up a strong enough candidate, Biden is the only one with a chance IMO, and incumbency is a powerful thing to have for any election at any level).

Maybe 2024 we'd see another Obama/McCain-like choice, but with further polarization/extremism on both sides I fear we won't for a while, but I hope for it. Or something drastic happens and political parties are banned and they add a mechanism to keep a no party system from turning in to a one party system to the Constitution.
When wasn't America great?


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NIKV69
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:32 am

salttee wrote:
Anybody who wants to run for president of the US without getting a party's nomination is incredibly self centered.



Or trying to sell books.
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die,
 
Flighty
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:31 pm

salttee wrote:
Flighty, In the US two party system a third party candidate will not and cannot ever win the presidential election. All a third party candidate can do is split the vote of the party which holds the most similarity to the third party candidate, giving the election to the other side.


I agree with this. He can't win, but let's keep in mind that Trump won last time. As the Democrats rally to the left, it opens the center for Trump. If nothing else, Schultz should warn the Democrats that they need to court actual swing voters in swing states, like a third party candidate would. If not, then of course Trump will just win again. When people think it is impossible, and Trump can never beat the Establishment in 2020... didn't we heard that before?

Trump cares about swing voters in swing states. I hope that people at least learn that from him. They know he tried to get border security. There is not one person in the country who doubts that. That is an important plank for 2020. The swing voter cares about that.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:26 am

Just saw him on 60 minutes. He didn’t seem all that impressive.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
salttee
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:38 am

Flighty wrote:
salttee wrote:
Flighty, In the US two party system a third party candidate will not and cannot ever win the presidential election. All a third party candidate can do is split the vote of the party which holds the most similarity to the third party candidate, giving the election to the other side.


I agree with this. He can't win, but let's keep in mind that Trump won last time. As the Democrats rally to the left, it opens the center for Trump. If nothing else, Schultz should warn the Democrats that they need to court actual swing voters in swing states, like a third party candidate would. If not, then of course Trump will just win again. When people think it is impossible, and Trump can never beat the Establishment in 2020... didn't we heard that before?

Trump cares about swing voters in swing states. I hope that people at least learn that from him. They know he tried to get border security. There is not one person in the country who doubts that. That is an important plank for 2020. The swing voter cares about that.

There are several reasons why Trump was able to squeak by with a victory; if any one of them had gone the other way, Hillary would have won the electoral count as well as the total vote count. One of those reasons was that Mr. moron himself, Bernie Sanders, ran a campaign against Hillary for months and was successful in gaining the allegiance of enough liberal votes to swing the election in Trump's favor. These voters didn't vote for Trump, they just sat out the election.

That lesson should be learned by anyone pining for a third option. The third option is fine as long as it's for the other side. But if you want the third option to boost a cause you support, you're screwing your own self.
 
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Berevoff
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:22 am

salttee wrote:
Flighty wrote:
salttee wrote:
Flighty, In the US two party system a third party candidate will not and cannot ever win the presidential election. All a third party candidate can do is split the vote of the party which holds the most similarity to the third party candidate, giving the election to the other side.


I agree with this. He can't win, but let's keep in mind that Trump won last time. As the Democrats rally to the left, it opens the center for Trump. If nothing else, Schultz should warn the Democrats that they need to court actual swing voters in swing states, like a third party candidate would. If not, then of course Trump will just win again. When people think it is impossible, and Trump can never beat the Establishment in 2020... didn't we heard that before?

Trump cares about swing voters in swing states. I hope that people at least learn that from him. They know he tried to get border security. There is not one person in the country who doubts that. That is an important plank for 2020. The swing voter cares about that.

There are several reasons why Trump was able to squeak by with a victory; if any one of them had gone the other way, Hillary would have won the electoral count as well as the total vote count. One of those reasons was that Mr. moron himself, Bernie Sanders, ran a campaign against Hillary for months and was successful in gaining the allegiance of enough liberal votes to swing the election in Trump's favor. These voters didn't vote for Trump, they just sat out the election.

That lesson should be learned by anyone pining for a third option. The third option is fine as long as it's for the other side. But if you want the third option to boost a cause you support, you're screwing your own self.


This could also come back to bite them if the Democrat primary becomes a dirty knockdown fight. Trump will pounce on ANY negative press the other democrats sling against their opponents.

Both parties are sweating bullets about a legitimate third party challenger. If there's one who gets any traction (on either side) they're finished.
 
salttee
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:33 am

Berevoff wrote:
This could also come back to bite them if the Democrat primary becomes a dirty knockdown fight.

You can bet money that the Russians and the Republicans will be using all the social medias (including A.net) to make that come about. For example, we already have a new (old) troll here trying to sell himself as a "moderate" so that he can work from within. We will see a lot more of those types in the coming months and years. Some of them can be expected to be very good at it.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:10 am

Flighty wrote:
Good. I think he is a good guy. Both the parties we have became unutterably rancid to the core. I believe both parties are being cleansed by fire right now. But if Howard helps that process along, fine.

In the last race, there was no strong candidate. Both main party candidates were mind-blowingly awful. An actual good third party candidate could have won that race. Schultz is incredibly thoughtful and impressive.

As for Bill Kristol quoted in the above piece, I would take Trump any day over Bill Kristol. I would raise the possibility that Trump is more moral, and also more intelligent, and has a more correct view of global affairs than Bill Kristol, and people like him.


But what about the war on christmas?!!! He started it!!!
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:35 pm

Christ the last thing we need is an "independent". And frankly the GOP has marched with their tiki torches so far off the cliff into white nationalist-ville that anything that was once considered "centrist" is now solidly left.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:39 pm

There is a reason why Trump already tweeted „he doesn’t have the guts“ to do it. He is trying to provoke him because he knows he would benefit from it.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:09 pm

salttee wrote:
Berevoff wrote:
This could also come back to bite them if the Democrat primary becomes a dirty knockdown fight.

You can bet money that the Russians and the Republicans will be using all the social medias (including A.net) to make that come about. For example, we already have a new (old) troll here trying to sell himself as a "moderate" so that he can work from within. We will see a lot more of those types in the coming months and years. Some of them can be expected to be very good at it.


Not sure what this has to do with a no name candidate that is going to drive the Democrats nuts as long as he continues with this charade.
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die,
 
apodino
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:09 pm

salttee wrote:
Flighty, In the US two party system a third party candidate will not and cannot ever win the presidential election. All a third party candidate can do is split the vote of the party which holds the most similarity to the third party candidate, giving the election to the other side.

Which is exactly why the two party system needs to be blown up completely. All the two party system has gotten us is divided government, politicians who wont compromise or work together, lots of power in the hands of the very wealthy, no interest in the grass roots or the middle class, and increased income inequality. The two party system has created an enviornment where a handful in Washington DC decides who is running for which seat, and loyalty is to the party and not the district. This is absolutely absurd, because as someone who lives in Texas, I am offended that folks in San Francisco, Washington DC, and New York think they know better than me who best represents my interests despite not living here or even knowing anything about this district.


I look at Canada as an example. In the provincial elections in Ontario last year, the incumbent party was the Liberal Party, who held office and Kathleen Wynne as the premier. After the election, not only did the party lose the majority, the party nearly became extinct when they only had a few seats left after not only the Progressive Conservative party won the majority, but the New Democratic party won the second most seats and the Liberals only ended up with 7 seats total. I would love to see something like this happen in the US to both Democrats and Republicans. I dont see it though.


Here is what people dont realize. If you had a third party in the US (Lets say the Libertarians, because their small government views on fiscal and social issues I would say would play the best nationwide) who suddenly won about 50 seats in the House. Lets say this happened, and of the remaining 385 seats in the House, they were split roughly even with about 163 Democrats and 162 Republican. Because no party has a majority, the Libertarians suddenly have lots of bargaining power and you would see an interesting battle on the floor over the house speakership. You would probably see the Libertarians join the Democrats on social issues such as Gay Rights and abortion, but Republicans on taxes and government spending. The beautiful thing about our system of government is it is set up much better for a multiple party system than a parliamentary system in which you need to make a deal just to even form a government.


As for 2020. The only Democrat who has declared so far that I could support is Gabbard. Sanders, Harris and Warren are too far left, and none of the other rumored candidates other than possibly Beto or Biden would be a candidate I could get behind. And I won't vote for Trump, so if the Republicans want my vote they have to primary him. But if Trump isnt primaried, and the Democrats do nominate someone like Harris or Warren, I will not hesitate in pulling the lever for Schulz or Bloomberg for that matter. And to those who say I am wasting my vote I say this. I am voting for the candidate I think is best. That is not wasting my vote. Belonging to either the Democratic or Republican parties should not be a prerequesite for someones vote. And yet the corporations and the major media outlets in bed with both parties have spend billions of dollars convicing us otherwise.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:15 pm

Flighty wrote:
salttee wrote:
Flighty, In the US two party system a third party candidate will not and cannot ever win the presidential election. All a third party candidate can do is split the vote of the party which holds the most similarity to the third party candidate, giving the election to the other side.


I agree with this. He can't win, but let's keep in mind that Trump won last time. As the Democrats rally to the left, it opens the center for Trump. If nothing else, Schultz should warn the Democrats that they need to court actual swing voters in swing states, like a third party candidate would. If not, then of course Trump will just win again. When people think it is impossible, and Trump can never beat the Establishment in 2020... didn't we heard that before?

Trump cares about swing voters in swing states. I hope that people at least learn that from him. They know he tried to get border security. There is not one person in the country who doubts that. That is an important plank for 2020. The swing voter cares about that.


Trump won in those swing states preaching a leftist message to those in Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania that he would bring jobs back which hasn't materialized. In fact they have continued to lose blue collar manufacturing jobs. Most polls indicate that Bernie would have won those states.

Schultz appeals to the democrats who are currently in charge but are being challenged by the Justice Democrats (Bernie, AOC, Warren etc). The moderate democrats are the reason that the democrats lose because they are fiscally centre right and generally progressive on social issues ,they have only won with two incredibly likable and charismatic candidates.

The look left compared to the pure and utter crazy that is the modern GOP but not remotely economically liberal and the progressives are winning on the issues. Even prominent conservatives believe that a 70% marginal tax rate above $10 million makes sense and both Ann Coulter and Tucker Carlson have said that it is a good idea. I have actually heard Tucker Carlson say to his credit that industry consolidation is a huge issue (which is under reported) and the companies reaping billions in profits should pay a living wage. This should be done for the sole reason that it gets them off government assistance savings taxpayer $$.

Taxpayer funded public college, medicare for all, the green new deal and drug legalization all poll well not just with liberals and conservatives as well.

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-envir ... n-new-deal
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/01/ ... -rate.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/01/over-60 ... -says.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/28/most-am ... ition.html
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
Flighty
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:15 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
Flighty wrote:
salttee wrote:
Flighty, In the US two party system a third party candidate will not and cannot ever win the presidential election. All a third party candidate can do is split the vote of the party which holds the most similarity to the third party candidate, giving the election to the other side.


I agree with this. He can't win, but let's keep in mind that Trump won last time. As the Democrats rally to the left, it opens the center for Trump. If nothing else, Schultz should warn the Democrats that they need to court actual swing voters in swing states, like a third party candidate would. If not, then of course Trump will just win again. When people think it is impossible, and Trump can never beat the Establishment in 2020... didn't we heard that before?

Trump cares about swing voters in swing states. I hope that people at least learn that from him. They know he tried to get border security. There is not one person in the country who doubts that. That is an important plank for 2020. The swing voter cares about that.


Trump won in those swing states preaching a leftist message to those in Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania that he would bring jobs back which hasn't materialized. In fact they have continued to lose blue collar manufacturing jobs. Most polls indicate that Bernie would have won those states.

Schultz appeals to the democrats who are currently in charge but are being challenged by the Justice Democrats (Bernie, AOC, Warren etc). The moderate democrats are the reason that the democrats lose because they are fiscally centre right and generally progressive on social issues ,they have only won with two incredibly likable and charismatic candidates.

The look left compared to the pure and utter crazy that is the modern GOP but not remotely economically liberal and the progressives are winning on the issues. Even prominent conservatives believe that a 70% marginal tax rate above $10 million makes sense and both Ann Coulter and Tucker Carlson have said that it is a good idea. I have actually heard Tucker Carlson say to his credit that industry consolidation is a huge issue (which is under reported) and the companies reaping billions in profits should pay a living wage. This should be done for the sole reason that it gets them off government assistance savings taxpayer $$.

Taxpayer funded public college, medicare for all, the green new deal and drug legalization all poll well not just with liberals and conservatives as well.

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-envir ... n-new-deal
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/01/ ... -rate.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/01/over-60 ... -says.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/28/most-am ... ition.html


I would surmise that Schultz is against government waste and overreach, so not all that similar to corporate democrats. I think college and health care could be provided to all at a reasonable cost, by eliminating, say, 70% of the costs from those activities, stripping out waste fraud and abuse. I do not think we can just put unlimited amounts of money on le credit card. And I think schultz does not either. So he emphatically would not support the "who cares what it costs" plan.
 
salttee
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:20 pm

apodino wrote:
Which is exactly why the two party system needs to be blown up completely. All the two party system has gotten us is divided government, politicians who wont compromise or work together, lots of power in the hands of the very wealthy, no interest in the grass roots or the middle class, and increased income inequality. The two party system has created an enviornment where a handful in Washington DC decides who is running for which seat, and loyalty is to the party and not the district.
The two party system has been a fundamental part of American politics from the beginning, the nation was divided in two factions (Federalists and anti-Federalists) decades before the constitution was written. The names of the two factions have changed a few times but the two party system is what we have and what we will have unless we are willing to throw out the US Constitution and implement a parliamentary system of government. I'd be happy to do that, but I'm part of a small minority.

apodino wrote:
as someone who lives in Texas, I am offended that folks in San Francisco, Washington DC, and New York think they know better than me who best represents my interests despite not living here or even knowing anything about this district.
Yet don't you think that the people there think the same of you and your ideas? Don't you think the people of Minnesota think the same about the wishes of the people of Mississippi? What are your specific complaints that makes them special?


apodino wrote:
I look at Canada as an example. In the provincial elections in Ontario last year, the incumbent party was the Liberal Party, who held office and Kathleen Wynne as the premier. After the election, not only did the party lose the majority, the party nearly became extinct when they only had a few seats left after not only the Progressive Conservative party won the majority, but the New Democratic party won the second most seats and the Liberals only ended up with 7 seats total. I would love to see something like this happen in the US to both Democrats and Republicans. I dont see it though.
You want a parliamentary system? Do you realize that means pitching the US Constitution?


apodino wrote:
Here is what people dont realize. If you had a third party in the US (Lets say the Libertarians, because their small government views on fiscal and social issues I would say would play the best nationwide) who suddenly won about 50 seats in the House. Lets say this happened, and of the remaining 385 seats in the House, they were split roughly even with about 163 Democrats and 162 Republican. Because no party has a majority, the Libertarians suddenly have lots of bargaining power and you would see an interesting battle on the floor over the house speakership. You would probably see the Libertarians join the Democrats on social issues such as Gay Rights and abortion, but Republicans on taxes and government spending. The beautiful thing about our system of government is it is set up much better for a multiple party system than a parliamentary system in which you need to make a deal just to even form a government.
Under the current system, the Libertarians only gain useful power if they join with one of the two parties and lobby that party to adopt some of their ideas: pass legislation they want passed. If they try to put up their own candidates they will lose, not only lose but cause the Republican candidate to lose too, so they shoot themselves in the foot.

apodino wrote:
As for 2020. The only Democrat who has declared so far that I could support is Gabbard. Sanders, Harris and Warren are too far left, and none of the other rumored candidates other than possibly Beto or Biden would be a candidate I could get behind. And I won't vote for Trump, so if the Republicans want my vote they have to primary him. But if Trump isnt primaried, and the Democrats do nominate someone like Harris or Warren, I will not hesitate in pulling the lever for Schulz or Bloomberg for that matter. And to those who say I am wasting my vote I say this. I am voting for the candidate I think is best. That is not wasting my vote. Belonging to either the Democratic or Republican parties should not be a prerequesite for someones vote. And yet the corporations and the major media outlets in bed with both parties have spend billions of dollars convicing us otherwise.

Where do you get the idea that Harris is too far left? The only thing we really know about her is that she's a tough on crime prosecutor who has been extreme in the use of her power as a prosecutor.
 
salttee
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:23 pm

Flighty wrote:
I think college and health care could be provided to all at a reasonable cost, by eliminating, say, 70% of the costs from those activities, stripping out waste fraud and abuse
Where do you see "waste fraud and abuse" in our current educational system?
 
apodino
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:45 pm

Saltee one question? Show me exactly where in the Constitution it says anything about Two Party system, or any political parties for that matter?
 
Flighty
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:46 pm

Saltee,

Here is what I mean
"College tuitions soar each year, advancing far in excess of the inflation rate. The overall inflation rate since 1986 increased 115.06%, which is why we pay more than double for everything we buy. On the other hand, during the same time, tuition increased a whopping 498.31%. See chart below."
https://inflationdata.com/inflation/inf ... lation.asp

And that article was written in 2012.

It has to do with government subsidization causing total dysfunction and complacency. That will triple the cost of anything.
 
salttee
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:28 pm

apodino wrote:
Saltee one question? Show me exactly where in the Constitution it says anything about Two Party system, or any political parties for that matter?

You're arguing on a meaningless intellectual tack. It doesn't say so in the Constitution, but the way the system is set up there is no way for a third party to take hold except in the rare case where a new party takes hold by attracting the members of one of the two parties in power. The original party in that case dissolves and you're back to a two party system again, nothing changes.

I'm not advocating that paradigm, I'm just explaining it.

But before you begin to think that a parliamentary system is a perfect solution take a look at the fix Britain currently is in.The Tories have to support their PM Theresa May even though they don't want anything to do with her policies. If they call new elections they lose, so they have to continue to support someone that nobody wants or else they lose power to the labor party. They can stay in power until May 5, 2022 if they keep supporting the current lost cause. In the meantime, something as important as Brexit essentially takes second place. Same as here: party over nation.
 
salttee
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:41 pm

Flighty wrote:
Saltee,

Here is what I mean
"College tuitions soar each year, advancing far in excess of the inflation rate. The overall inflation rate since 1986 increased 115.06%, which is why we pay more than double for everything we buy. On the other hand, during the same time, tuition increased a whopping 498.31%. See chart below."
https://inflationdata.com/inflation/inf ... lation.asp

And that article was written in 2012.

It has to do with government subsidization causing total dysfunction and complacency. That will triple the cost of anything.

So there's no fraud and there's no abuse. There's just a screwed up system. There's no driving force for colleges to lower the cost of their product. The colleges are in a bidding war for the top notch professors and are paying them obscene salaries, I know that's one of the drivers of the inflation of college costs. It needs to be examined in more detail than assigning it to waste fraud and abuse. But wherever you go you'll be taking on entrenched interests if you try to change anything.

It's much like taking on the AMA, which is the source of the problems with health care, especially health care costs.
 
apodino
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:33 pm

salttee wrote:
apodino wrote:
Saltee one question? Show me exactly where in the Constitution it says anything about Two Party system, or any political parties for that matter?

You're arguing on a meaningless intellectual tack. It doesn't say so in the Constitution, but the way the system is set up there is no way for a third party to take hold except in the rare case where a new party takes hold by attracting the members of one of the two parties in power. The original party in that case dissolves and you're back to a two party system again, nothing changes.

I'm not advocating that paradigm, I'm just explaining it.

But before you begin to think that a parliamentary system is a perfect solution take a look at the fix Britain currently is in.The Tories have to support their PM Theresa May even though they don't want anything to do with her policies. If they call new elections they lose, so they have to continue to support someone that nobody wants or else they lose power to the labor party. They can stay in power until May 5, 2022 if they keep supporting the current lost cause. In the meantime, something as important as Brexit essentially takes second place. Same as here: party over nation.


I am not arguing for a parliamentary system, because in a parliamentary system the legislative and executive branches are not separate and are interwoven. In our system, they are completely separate. And what you say makes no sense. Here is what would happen if you had three parties in the US without a clear majority. In the speaker vote, each parties membership would vote for their own candidate on the first ballot. You would likely have some deal making going on, but lets say that Pelosi ended up winning over enough libertarians to secure the speakership. Ok, Pelosi is speaker and gets to set the agenda, but you still have the same number of Libertarians and Republicans as you had before. It would basically be a very similar arrangement to when the Senate was 50/50.

Lets say the senate became 45 Democrats, 45 Republicans and 10 Libertarians. No party would wield the majority here either, but according to the constitution, the President of the Senate is the Vice President. You would have no constitutional crisis at all because there is no need to elect a presiding officer, but now you have three different parties, not to mention the fillibuster still in effect. You would have to negotiate to get things done. No party disolves.

One other thing that could happen is say the Democrats hold the House, The GOP holds the senate, but yet a Libertarian (lets say Bill Weld for example) wins the White House. Now you have two parties both trying to curry favor with the white house to get things done.

Bottom line, if a third party gains power, it wouldnt shred the constitution. On the contrary, it would actually be much more in tune with what the founding fathers had in mind (which was actually no political parties at all.)
 
winginit
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:37 pm

I predict in three month's time the general public will have forgotten that Schultz had even thought of running. His campaign hasn't even started yet and it's already fizzling.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:38 pm

Wonderful news. I hope he will.
 
salttee
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:54 pm

apodino wrote:
what you say makes no sense.

Maybe what I said makes no sense, but that's the way it is. Your scenarios jump into the legislative session; you skipped the part about getting elected. If you can do that, you're home free. If you can do that.

And a Libertarian getting elected president?

Yea, right.
 
apodino
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:19 am

salttee wrote:
apodino wrote:
what you say makes no sense.

Maybe what I said makes no sense, but that's the way it is. Your scenarios jump into the legislative session; you skipped the part about getting elected. If you can do that, you're home free. If you can do that.

And a Libertarian getting elected president?

Yea, right.

Maybe so, but your argument has been that anything other than a two party system goes outside the constitution. And if both parties continue on the track we are heading on, I think it is more and more likely we get more third party people elected to office. I believe that Angus King, the Junior Senator from Maine is an independent. (Technically Bernie is too). Jesse Ventura was elected as Governor of MInnesota as an independent. Heck Lisa Murkowski won as a write in candidate once when she was primaried.

It is possible. And when it does happen, and I suspect we will see it in our lifetime, change will truly come to Washington.
 
salttee
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:39 am

apodino wrote:
your argument has been that anything other than a two party system goes outside the constitution

What I said is right here on this page and I never said anything like that. Quoting from post #24, I specifically said: "It doesn't say so in the Constitution..........." I think you're living in fantasyland. But by all means please devote your time and money to boosting Libertarian candidates.

What this country needs is another Ross Perot. LOL
 
apodino
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:00 am

salttee wrote:
apodino wrote:
your argument has been that anything other than a two party system goes outside the constitution

What I said is right here on this page and I never said anything like that. Quoting from post #24, I specifically said: "It doesn't say so in the Constitution..........." I think you're living in fantasyland. But by all means please devote your time and money to boosting Libertarian candidates.

What this country needs is another Ross Perot. LOL


Funny because from an earlier post you say the following

"The two party system has been a fundamental part of American politics from the beginning, the nation was divided in two factions (Federalists and anti-Federalists) decades before the constitution was written. The names of the two factions have changed a few times but the two party system is what we have and what we will have unless we are willing to throw out the US Constitution and implement a parliamentary system of government. I'd be happy to do that, but I'm part of a small minority.


I interpret that to mean that you cant have more than a two party system unless you throw out the constitution and go to a parliamentary system. I have argued to the contrary, that we can throw out the two party system without gutting the constitution.
 
salttee
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:34 am

apodino wrote:
I interpret that to mean that you cant have more than a two party system unless you throw out the constitution and go to a parliamentary system. I have argued to the contrary, that we can throw out the two party system without gutting the constitution.
OK let's take it bit, by bit I said:
The two party system has been a fundamental part of American politics from the beginning, the nation was divided in two factions (Federalists and anti-Federalists) decades before the constitution was written.
You couldn't have gotten the idea that I was saying that the constitution mandates two parties from that. Right?

The names of the two factions have changed a few times but the two party system is what we have and what we will have unless we are willing to throw out the US Constitution and implement a parliamentary system of government. I'd be happy to do that, but I'm part of a small minority.
If you got the idea that I was saying the constitution mandates a two party system from that, you're reading it wrong, confirmation bias I suspect.

A parliamentary system, by it's nature creates a multi party system, if you want a multi party system, you'll need to implement a parliamentary form of government and that means throwing out the constitution.

Maybe I would have been clearer if I had said: throw out the American political system, but I know how Texas right wingers hold the constitution so dear, as if it were handed down from god herself, so I wanted to make it clear that if you want multiple functioning parties you'll need to pitch the constitution.

It's like family politics or social politics, anytime there are three, two of them are going to gang up on the other. That's human nature. It works that way in a parliamentary system too, but there you will always have more than three.
 
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DL717
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:36 am

He should offer free coffee for all. It’s a Right to have a perk me up in the morning.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
Pyrex
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:02 am

If Democrats are so concerned about Trump as they claim they are, they can always not run a candidate and their their weight behind Schultz. Why should he be the one dropping out?

Also, why the heck is the US government providing support to a two-party system? Why are they wasting government resources registering the political party of people registering to vote, organizing party primaries, printing candidate's political affiliation in ballots, etc.?
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
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EstherLouise
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:26 am

George Schultz is way too old. Mr. Coffee is worse.
712 722 732 734 737 738 741 742 744 752 762 772 A310 DC91 DC93 DC94 DC1030 DC1040 F100 MD82 MD83
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:27 am

I've never seen a trial balloon for presidency shot down so aggressively by both political operatives and... billionaire centrist independent Michael Bloomberg that has a data operation that has shown him it'd be idiotic for himself or anyone else to do this.

If this dude still thinks this is a good idea he needs to fire his advisors because they're lying to him.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:23 pm

I want to see more of schultz before I get ahead of myself here, but I could see Schultz being more like a Bill Clinton. I could go along with that. I want to see what his fiscal policies are. I like that he isn't afraid to address the national debt issue. But I want to know what his plan to right the ship is. After reading a few articles, I'm not so sure that he would hurt a democrat or trump more. I didn't caucus for Trump in 2016. But I support a lot of what he does now. But I wouldn't be opposed to listening to what Schultz has to say. He and I are probably more alike than I realize at this point. I view him as being socially liberal but fiscally conservative at this point. Fairly in line with libertarian principles as well. He could do fairly well in a general election.
 
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Berevoff
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:05 pm

Just in time for his new book release. What a coincidence!

Pay for a segment on 60 minutes and let social media do the rest.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:43 pm

Shame the guy doesn't have a chance. He is the smartest Dem candidate to declare so far. He rightly smacked down Harris' insane claim about abolishing private health care going as far as calling it un-American. It's good to see some on the left with some sense.
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die,
 
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ER757
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:55 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Shame the guy doesn't have a chance. He is the smartest Dem candidate to declare so far. He rightly smacked down Harris' insane claim about abolishing private health care going as far as calling it un-American. It's good to see some on the left with some sense.

If he really was all that smart, he'd realize he has no chance as an independent and run under the democrat umbrella. Perhaps he fears he might not do well enough in the primaries and thus wouldn't be the nominee and that's why he wants to run and an independent.
 
Flighty
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:05 pm

He knows more about everyday American concerns (as the mastermind behind Starbucks) than any Dem politician, probably. He understand the psychology of front line $12/hour employees and the customers. He also knows a lot about diplomacy. He knows the intimate geography of the USA. He knows how every city is doing.

I have zero faith that party people or Donald Trump know anything about the state of the USA, but the founder and CEO of Starbucks? That guy? He knows a lot & would do a great job as president. Donald got very far on instincts alone - exposing the little or nothing that the Democrats know. They are imbeciles.
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:47 pm

Will we ever learn? Hindsight isn’t 20/20 when truth no longer matters.

We’ve seen what happens with unelectable candidates poaching voters. I recently ready an article about this and conservatives want him to run because they know he’ll split the vote. Gore lost Florida by some 500 votes. It’s likely Gore would have taken Florida if it weren’t for Nader.

This also happened in 2016. Some on the left fell victim to lies about Hillary and they changed their support. Don’t even get me started on the BernieBros..........
 
Pyrex
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:21 pm

So the same people who bitched on Bernie for running on the D primary despite being an independent (and temporarily messing with The Annointed One's coronation) are now bitching on Schultz for NOT running on the D primary? Because the DNC just showed in 2016 it is totally up for a fair nomination process, right?
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
StarAC17
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:14 pm

Jouhou wrote:
I've never seen a trial balloon for presidency shot down so aggressively by both political operatives and... billionaire centrist independent Michael Bloomberg that has a data operation that has shown him it'd be idiotic for himself or anyone else to do this.

If this dude still thinks this is a good idea he needs to fire his advisors because they're lying to him.


Bloomberg is another billionaire that has no chance either as he has already dug his political grave by saying legalizing weed would be stupid.
Memo to billionaires, if you don't want your taxes raised then be on board with legalizing and taxing weed and other drugs.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:20 pm

Ok, so Schultz isn't getting much fan fare among our more liberal posters here (who happen to be some of the more active participants here). I'd like to know what you all DO like about him. So he doesn't support medicare for all. Is that a deal breaker for you? What else don't you like about him?

Lets talk about his politics instead of talking about him spoiling votes one way or another (honestly, that's a lie perpetuated by the DNC and RNC to keep themselves in power). Perhaps there's a middle ground where we can all hold our noses and be at least somewhat happy. I'm genuinely interested in knowing what he has to offer.
 
Pi7472000
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:44 pm

I would never vote for a wealthy, corporate "independent" candidate. We do not need another CEO or wealthy millionaire businessman who bored with life running for office. He will do nothing but increase economic social ineqaulity!
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:15 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
I would never vote for a wealthy, corporate "independent" candidate. We do not need another CEO or wealthy millionaire businessman who bored with life running for office. He will do nothing but increase economic social ineqaulity!


Ah, well then, I shall expect to see you running for office then?
 
Magog
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:50 am

He’s definitely better than the lying racist Cheeto Drumpf.

Realistically, we need someone who can appeal to middle America, even if they are all racists. Schultz could be that guy.
 
Pyrex
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Re: Schultz thinking of running as independent

Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:14 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
I would never vote for a wealthy, corporate "independent" candidate. We do not need another CEO or wealthy millionaire businessman who bored with life running for office. He will do nothing but increase economic social ineqaulity!


So, you prefer people who become wealthy in office (such as the Clintons or Obama) as opposed to the ones already wealthy going in?
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