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User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10035
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:30 pm

ORDfan101 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
The US spends a great amount of our GDP on the Military, and rightfully so, to keep America safe and strong. There are other superpowers, and the best policy is to be strong. If these little EU darlings had to spend what we do on Defense, there'd be precious little funds left to keep their utopias afloat.


Spending this great amount of GDP on military would have been great if you actually could afford it, to begin with.


We can afford it even with tax cuts


It is your choice where you spend your money on, I would say tour money is better to be spent elsewhere. But that is politics and your world view, on both, we differ fastly.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ORDfan101
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:14 am

Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:31 pm

Dutchy wrote:
ORDfan101 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

Spending this great amount of GDP on military would have been great if you actually could afford it, to begin with.


We can afford it even with tax cuts


It is your choice where you spend your money on, I would say tour money is better to be spent elsewhere. But that is politics and your world view, on both, we differ fastly.


I agree
 
slider
Posts: 7422
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:41 pm

winginit wrote:
slider wrote:
Precisely right. I think AOC is an utterly hilarious useful idiot and I find her about as harmful as an ant. But her ideas clearly have resonated with some other elected officials and some of the braindead citizenry and THAT is the terrifying thing--that such absolutely stupid, wrong, and foolish full-blown Marxist ideas would get traction in the minds of people.


I think you could argue that's almost identically how the left and many moderates view Donald Trump - with the difference of course being that as President, Trump can be much more harmful than an ant. I'll even rewrite it as such:

Precisely right. I think Donald Trump is an utterly hilarious useful idiot and I find him about as harmful as an ant. But his ideas clearly have resonated with almost the entirety of the Republican Party and some of the braindead citizenry and THAT is the terrifying thing--that such absolutely stupid, wrong, and foolish full-blown Fascist ideas would get traction in the minds of people.

No real point here, just an observation.


That's a fair observation, I can understand where you're coming from there. True. That's an honest rebuttal that is seldom found here.

(I'd also add, not for the sake of being argumentative, that Trump is, however, getting results. Say what you will about the style--which I've repeatedly said I loathe--but the sonofabitch is getting it done in a lot of ways. Hence, the difference between Trump and AOC is that one is actual and one is theoretical.)
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10872
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:47 pm

ORDfan101 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
The US spends a great amount of our GDP on the Military, and rightfully so, to keep America safe and strong. There are other superpowers, and the best policy is to be strong. If these little EU darlings had to spend what we do on Defense, there'd be precious little funds left to keep their utopias afloat.


Spending this great amount of GDP on military would have been great if you actually could afford it, to begin with.


We can afford it even with tax cuts


Deficit spending is not sustainable, is it? Almost 800 Billion last year, on track for a trillion this year......

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
anrec80
Posts: 2106
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:33 pm

ORDfan101 wrote:

We can afford it even with tax cuts


Really? With nearly a trillion dollar deficit? This is by far more than what you spend on military.
 
timh4000
Posts: 196
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:14 pm

Re: New Green Deal - Air travel obsolete

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:25 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
timh4000 wrote:
A lucrative multi billion dollar industry that a majority of people need or enjoy isn't about to be dismantled due to a young political uber extremist senator.

True.
It won't be dismantled because of AOC and her personal agenda.
However it will be dismantled when enough people are willing to accept that too much of it is a bad thing.

Meanwhile let's have some fun with all your red herrings.
1) "A lucrative multi billion dollar industry"
If that is sufficient reason to maintain a way of business, there are a number of Mexican drug cartels who will gladly employ you as a lobbyist.

2) "that a majority of people need or enjoy"
Oh really? If you add up all the passengers around the world, the airline employees (& sub contractors), airport employees (& sub contractors) and every employee at Airbus & Boeing (& etc etc), are you going to come up with 3½ billion people? :shakehead:
For a start, it will not even come close. Secondly, very few of them actually "need" aviation.
An exception might be a casualty at the side of a road, or half way up a mountain, waiting for an air ambulance.
Aside from those rare cases, who else really needs aviation?
if the money invested in aviation were to go elsewhere, guess what? The jobs would follow the money.
And suddenly you will find people "need" the Green Deal, because it provides employment for many of them.

As for "enjoy" aviation; here's a strange thing. I used to "enjoy" football. Then I broke my leg. Now I enjoy something else.
Life on this planet will not suddenly cease because aircraft stop flying. The human species is remarkably capable of adapting - in most cases.
Obviously Trump supporters are a special sub-set that are unable to manage this, but I guess I can live with that problem. :lol:

3).."due to a.."
young (is that a good thing or a bad thing?)
political (er, yes)
uber (did someone buy you a dictionary for Xmas?)
extremist (pot, say hello to kettle)
senator.

Let's see what we've actually got left, after editing out the surplus.
An industry that some people think they need as a comfort blanket is hopefully about to be overhauled due to a US senator starting the ball rolling.

There, I fixed it for you. :lol:
 
timh4000
Posts: 196
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:14 pm

Re: New Green Deal - Air travel obsolete

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:45 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
timh4000 wrote:
A lucrative multi billion dollar industry that a majority of people need or enjoy isn't about to be dismantled due to a young political uber extremist senator.

True.
It won't be dismantled because of AOC and her personal agenda.
However it will be dismantled when enough people are willing to accept that too much of it is a bad thing.

Meanwhile let's have some fun with all your red herrings.
1) "A lucrative multi billion dollar industry"
If that is sufficient reason to maintain a way of business, there are a number of Mexican drug cartels who will gladly employ you as a lobbyist.

2) "that a majority of people need or enjoy"
Oh really? If you add up all the passengers around the world, the airline employees (& sub contractors), airport employees (& sub contractors) and every employee at Airbus & Boeing (& etc etc), are you going to come up with 3½ billion people? :shakehead:
For a start, it will not even come close. Secondly, very few of them actually "need" aviation.
An exception might be a casualty at the side of a road, or half way up a mountain, waiting for an air ambulance.
Aside from those rare cases, who else really needs aviation?
if the money invested in aviation were to go elsewhere, guess what? The jobs would follow the money.
And suddenly you will find people "need" the Green Deal, because it provides employment for many of them.

As for "enjoy" aviation; here's a strange thing. I used to "enjoy" football. Then I broke my leg. Now I enjoy something else.
Life on this planet will not suddenly cease because aircraft stop flying. The human species is remarkably capable of adapting - in most cases.
Obviously Trump supporters are a special sub-set that are unable to manage this, but I guess I can live with that problem. :lol:

3).."due to a.."
young (is that a good thing or a bad thing?)
political (er, yes)
uber (did someone buy you a dictionary for Xmas?)
extremist (pot, say hello to kettle)
senator.

Let's see what we've actually got left, after editing out the surplus.
An industry that some people think they need as a comfort blanket is hopefully about to be overhauled due to a US senator starting the ball rolling.

There, I fixed it for you. :lol:

How is it you are viewing me.... as a far right anti environment type? You missed the mark. By a lot. Would you want to see her successfully dismantle public aviation? If so. Why are you on this forum, other than the obvious trolling.....
 
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cranberrysaus
Posts: 224
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:04 pm

High speed rail may not make complete sense on a national scale, but I think it does on a regional one. The Northeast corridor shows it can be very successful at a smaller scale. Why not use it to connect some of the more closely spaced major metro areas like in Texas, Florida, etc.?
 
mham001
Posts: 5616
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:55 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

Difference being here you get a place to live, in the US you have just filled out a form. Don´t try to tell me otherwise, my oldest US friend became homeless after an accident ruined her back, and her Job went with it, and last time i visited her i had to drop of at a charity shelter every evening..... about a year after she had lost her house.

Best regards
Thomas


umm, yes, I am going to tell you otherwise. Eventually you do get housing (why else would they have you fill out forms?), it just may not be quick depending on region. Maybe you need to read about Section 8s. This is in conjunction with any local housing assistance as well but I don't care enough about your ignorance to look that up.

Problem with that is that many landlords refuse to rent to Sec 8. I am one of them. i don't know the current trends around the country but government managed housing projects are typically troublesome slums that nobody wants.
 
mham001
Posts: 5616
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:02 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
I don't get why the development of high-speed rail is so detested. China's been developing high speed rail lines by the thousands of miles.


I guess it's down to 'not invented here' syndrome, I bet if high speed rail was a US idea there would be high speed rail lines all over the country by now. If you look at it logically only coast to coast travel would require a plane, all other travel a high speed rail line would likely be just a quick or quicker once you take all the waiting around done in airports into consideration.


BS. It is because China is/was not yet developed and had the opportunity to build fresh with current technology. Same with airports and whatnot, they are building from scratch while the US is using its existing infrastructure. I am hopeful HSR will be leapfrogged by hyperloop - whose footprint can be significantly smaller.
 
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seb146
Posts: 20723
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:17 pm

mham001 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
I don't get why the development of high-speed rail is so detested. China's been developing high speed rail lines by the thousands of miles.


I guess it's down to 'not invented here' syndrome, I bet if high speed rail was a US idea there would be high speed rail lines all over the country by now. If you look at it logically only coast to coast travel would require a plane, all other travel a high speed rail line would likely be just a quick or quicker once you take all the waiting around done in airports into consideration.


BS. It is because China is/was not yet developed and had the opportunity to build fresh with current technology. Same with airports and whatnot, they are building from scratch while the US is using its existing infrastructure. I am hopeful HSR will be leapfrogged by hyperloop - whose footprint can be significantly smaller.


I get that you are excited about hyperloop but I just wonder if it will simply be a platform for a more successful and more profitable form of mass transit? It happens all the time. We should invest in R&D for hyperloop because something better will come along.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 1772
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: New Green Deal - Air travel obsolete

Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:34 pm

timh4000 wrote:
How is it you are viewing me.... as a far right anti environment type? You missed the mark. By a lot. Would you want to see her successfully dismantle public aviation? If so. Why are you on this forum, other than the obvious trolling.....
I'm not sure I hold any views about you; I was simply responding to the words you used, phrase by phrase.

Would you want to see her successfully dismantle public aviation?

Her? I take it you mean AOC. I have no view on AOC either, and I've already stated this won't happen just because this year it features on her personal agenda. :shakehead:
However, if it needs to happen to make the planet a better place, then yes, I will gladly accept it. And so would anybody with an iota of conscience.

But that is a red herring because what you have laid out isn't anyone's agenda; the extreme wording you have used is a straw man; even the uber radical AOC isn't suggesting that. Nice try though!
Making air travel unnecessary is exactly what it says on the tin - a plan to reduce the need to travel by air because there is simply no alternative. I welcome an alternative, and it may be that some days I fly, and some days I take the train. What exactly is your problem with that? It sounds to me like you are running scared, but I cannot fathom out why. :scratchchin:

So yes, maybe you are a "far right anti environment type" - at least by the evidence of your choice of words. Sorry, but that's all I've got to go on.

p.s. I'll let you into a little secret; I'm a great fan of steam trains too, but I wouldn't want them re-introduced as a widespread mode of transport.
Liking something (e.g. air travel or steam trains) doesn't mean you have to be blind to it's limitations.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 10035
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:28 pm

cranberrysaus wrote:
High speed rail may not make complete sense on a national scale, but I think it does on a regional one. The Northeast corridor shows it can be very successful at a smaller scale. Why not use it to connect some of the more closely spaced major metro areas like in Texas, Florida, etc.?


:checkmark: that's a start.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 1532
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:05 am

There is NO true high speed rail in the Northeast corridor. Acela uses EXISTING tracks to attempt to drive as fast as possible without derailing.
If you have ever ridden the Acela, you know what the problem is: snaking along the coast line (from Boston to NYC) passing through tiny, wealthy villages where the locals will fight TOOTH-n-NAIL if ever a dedicated track is proposed.
To be truly successful at HSR, you need DEDICATED, AS STRAIGHT AS POSSIBLE tracks. You think HSR in China, Japan, France, Germany etc. runs over tracks that were laid 100 years ago?? You think HSR in China, Japan, France, Germany etc. runs over railways that snakes like a drunken sailor? Think again.
 
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cranberrysaus
Posts: 224
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:11 am

Dieuwer wrote:
There is NO true high speed rail in the Northeast corridor. Acela uses EXISTING tracks to attempt to drive as fast as possible without derailing.
If you have ever ridden the Acela, you know what the problem is: snaking along the coast line (from Boston to NYC) passing through tiny, wealthy villages where the locals will fight TOOTH-n-NAIL if ever a dedicated track is proposed.
To be truly successful at HSR, you need DEDICATED, AS STRAIGHT AS POSSIBLE tracks. You think HSR in China, Japan, France, Germany etc. runs over tracks that were laid 100 years ago?? You think HSR in China, Japan, France, Germany etc. runs over railways that snakes like a drunken sailor? Think again.


I know it's not "true" high speed rail, but I think it proves that the concept is viable in the U.S.
 
 
ORDfan101
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:14 am

Re: New Green Deal - Air travel obsolete

Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:17 pm

timh4000 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
timh4000 wrote:
A lucrative multi billion dollar industry that a majority of people need or enjoy isn't about to be dismantled due to a young political uber extremist senator.

True.
It won't be dismantled because of AOC and her personal agenda.
However it will be dismantled when enough people are willing to accept that too much of it is a bad thing.

Meanwhile let's have some fun with all your red herrings.
1) "A lucrative multi billion dollar industry"
If that is sufficient reason to maintain a way of business, there are a number of Mexican drug cartels who will gladly employ you as a lobbyist.

2) "that a majority of people need or enjoy"
Oh really? If you add up all the passengers around the world, the airline employees (& sub contractors), airport employees (& sub contractors) and every employee at Airbus & Boeing (& etc etc), are you going to come up with 3½ billion people? :shakehead:
For a start, it will not even come close. Secondly, very few of them actually "need" aviation.
An exception might be a casualty at the side of a road, or half way up a mountain, waiting for an air ambulance.
Aside from those rare cases, who else really needs aviation?
if the money invested in aviation were to go elsewhere, guess what? The jobs would follow the money.
And suddenly you will find people "need" the Green Deal, because it provides employment for many of them.

As for "enjoy" aviation; here's a strange thing. I used to "enjoy" football. Then I broke my leg. Now I enjoy something else.
Life on this planet will not suddenly cease because aircraft stop flying. The human species is remarkably capable of adapting - in most cases.
Obviously Trump supporters are a special sub-set that are unable to manage this, but I guess I can live with that problem. :lol:

3).."due to a.."
young (is that a good thing or a bad thing?)
political (er, yes)
uber (did someone buy you a dictionary for Xmas?)
extremist (pot, say hello to kettle)
senator.

Let's see what we've actually got left, after editing out the surplus.
An industry that some people think they need as a comfort blanket is hopefully about to be overhauled due to a US senator starting the ball rolling.

There, I fixed it for you. :lol:

How is it you are viewing me.... as a far right anti environment type? You missed the mark. By a lot. Would you want to see her successfully dismantle public aviation? If so. Why are you on this forum, other than the obvious trolling.....


Agreed we are seen as evil on this site
 
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DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2008
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:35 pm

How they'll get to Hawaii using "natural resources"...

Image
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3700
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:02 am

The good news: proven oil reserves will last until at least 2150. Guyana will be the next petrostate with 5-10 billion barrels.

The bad news: pessimists think life will end before then which means we take running out of oil off the worry list.

The good news: everyone here will have gone to their reward before either happens.

GF
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2008
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:18 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The good news: proven oil reserves will last until at least 2150. Guyana will be the next petrostate with 5-10 billion barrels.

The bad news: pessimists think life will end before then which means we take running out of oil off the worry list.

The good news: everyone here will have gone to their reward before either happens.

GF


Their 12 year doomsday clock is ticking away. I don't know though, if it's a windup or solar powered. I doubt it's atomic.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2812
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:10 am

cranberrysaus wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
There is NO true high speed rail in the Northeast corridor. Acela uses EXISTING tracks to attempt to drive as fast as possible without derailing.
If you have ever ridden the Acela, you know what the problem is: snaking along the coast line (from Boston to NYC) passing through tiny, wealthy villages where the locals will fight TOOTH-n-NAIL if ever a dedicated track is proposed.
To be truly successful at HSR, you need DEDICATED, AS STRAIGHT AS POSSIBLE tracks. You think HSR in China, Japan, France, Germany etc. runs over tracks that were laid 100 years ago?? You think HSR in China, Japan, France, Germany etc. runs over railways that snakes like a drunken sailor? Think again.


I know it's not "true" high speed rail, but I think it proves that the concept is viable in the U.S.


Quite the contrary, what Dieuwer said proves that it isn't.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 10035
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: New Green Deal - Air travel obsolete

Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:35 am

ORDfan101 wrote:
Agreed we are seen as evil on this site


No you are not going to do a Image on us. You are a grown-up, so you will need to live up to your own responsibilities. I don't see you as evil, I see you acting very foolishly and selfish with regards to this subject. Evil says something about the person, what I say is about the subject, quite a different thing.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
slider
Posts: 7422
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:29 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The good news: proven oil reserves will last until at least 2150. Guyana will be the next petrostate with 5-10 billion barrels.

The bad news: pessimists think life will end before then which means we take running out of oil off the worry list.

The good news: everyone here will have gone to their reward before either happens.

GF


Their 12 year doomsday clock is ticking away. I don't know though, if it's a windup or solar powered. I doubt it's atomic.



WHATEVER WILL WE DO IN 12 YEARS????? The sky is falling!!!!! BWAHAHAAHA

AOC is the gift that keeps on giving. Between her loony crackpot insanity and the Dems legalizing infanticide in two states, the statists are making the case for re-electing Trump before their very eyes.
 
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cranberrysaus
Posts: 224
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:52 pm

aviationaware wrote:
cranberrysaus wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
There is NO true high speed rail in the Northeast corridor. Acela uses EXISTING tracks to attempt to drive as fast as possible without derailing.
If you have ever ridden the Acela, you know what the problem is: snaking along the coast line (from Boston to NYC) passing through tiny, wealthy villages where the locals will fight TOOTH-n-NAIL if ever a dedicated track is proposed.
To be truly successful at HSR, you need DEDICATED, AS STRAIGHT AS POSSIBLE tracks. You think HSR in China, Japan, France, Germany etc. runs over tracks that were laid 100 years ago?? You think HSR in China, Japan, France, Germany etc. runs over railways that snakes like a drunken sailor? Think again.


I know it's not "true" high speed rail, but I think it proves that the concept is viable in the U.S.


Quite the contrary, what Dieuwer said proves that it isn't.


What do you mean?
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 1772
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:32 pm

cranberrysaus wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
cranberrysaus wrote:
I know it's not "true" high speed rail, but I think it proves that the concept is viable in the U.S.

Quite the contrary, what Dieuwer said proves that it isn't.

What do you mean?

Excuse me for interjecting.
Wikipedia wrote:
While there is no single standard that applies worldwide, new lines in excess of 250 kilometres per hour (160 mph) and existing lines in excess of 200 kilometres per hour (120 mph) are widely considered to be high-speed,

The United States has domestic definitions for high-speed rail varying between jurisdictions.
The United States Code defines high-speed rail as services "reasonably expected to reach sustained speeds of more than 125 mph "
The Federal Railroad Administration uses a definition of top speeds at 110 mph and above.
The Congressional Research Service uses the term "higher-speed rail" for speeds up to 150 mph and "very high speed rail" for the rail on dedicated tracks with speeds over 150 mph

The question becomes; what did AOC mean when she used the term?
She is the author of the Resolution; only she can answer that for certain, although I have met various posters on this forum who like to think they can speak on her behalf, and interpret her words to fit their twisted agenda.
Wikipedia wrote:
Amtrak's Acela Express (reaching 150 mph), Northeast Regional, Keystone Service and certain MARC Penn Line express trains (the three reaching 125 mph ) are currently the only high-speed services in the {US}.


Dieuwer says these are not true high speed, and I have some sympathy with his view. However, he needs to come up with a source that backs this up, if not, I'll take Wikipedia who make allowances for including tilting trains reaching relatively high speeds on existing tracks.

Aviationaware will cling on to anything that appears to support his agenda, and is therefore less inclined to critically examine Dieuwer's statement.
Or understand the difference between a viable concept, as opposed to individual failures in actual execution.(If indeed they are failures...)

I don't have a dog in this fight, and will criticize either faction if it talks rubbish.

p.s. There is also a less frequently used term; Higher-speed Rail (HrSR), sometimes referred to as "Almost High Speed Rail"
That appears to be even more vague in it's usage.
Under this heading you might include the numerous diesel hauled services within the UK reaching 100mph back in the 1960's.
Foremost amongst these, the Deltic class of locomotives featured a unusual engine design, developed from the Junkes Jumo 204-207, as used in the Junkers 86 and Blohm & Voss Bv138. Diesel engined aircraft ! Who knew?

Image

Ju-86s regularly "visited" Manchester - but on this occasion this is after the war and without the usual bombload. :lol:


Meanwhile, the BV138 had three Jumo diesel engines, only one of which featured a 4-bladed propeller. :o
Image
Sorry - gone off on a bit of a tangent here, and somehow introduced aviation into the discussion. :lol:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3700
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:40 pm

The Deltic also powered the FDNY Super-pumper. Trivia.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 1772
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:52 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The Deltic also powered the FDNY Super-pumper. Trivia.

Ye gods; I thought I knew some crazy stuff, but I tip my hat to you.
Nice work! :bigthumbsup:

Image
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2812
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:26 pm

cranberrysaus wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
cranberrysaus wrote:

I know it's not "true" high speed rail, but I think it proves that the concept is viable in the U.S.


Quite the contrary, what Dieuwer said proves that it isn't.


What do you mean?


That true HSR is an impossibility in the Accela corridor due to dense population. It would be drawn out in courts for decades and prohibitively expensive. The Accela corridor is the only sector where HSR would be operationally sensible in the US, anywhere else doesn't make any sense. So that pretty much kills HSR for America right then and there.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 10035
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:02 pm

aviationaware wrote:
cranberrysaus wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

Quite the contrary, what Dieuwer said proves that it isn't.


What do you mean?


That true HSR is an impossibility in the Accela corridor due to dense population. It would be drawn out in courts for decades and prohibitively expensive. The Accela corridor is the only sector where HSR would be operationally sensible in the US, anywhere else doesn't make any sense. So that pretty much kills HSR for America right then and there.


Everything below 500km and high passenger count is perfect for a HSR. It should be competitive in time with a plane, city center to city center.
The balance between the rights of the individual and society is offset if you can't build a rail line.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:11 pm

Anything shorter than 500km in the US is car territory, quicker than dealing with airports, more flexible in low density cities.

GF
 
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Dutchy
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:25 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Anything shorter than 500km in the US is car territory, quicker than dealing with airports, more flexible in low density cities.

GF


That is indeed a uniquely American problem, the layout of the US cities isn't that smart, just a drag of endless homes, quite inefficient and to be blunt it doesn't make your cities very attractive from my point of view. Then move to electric cars for you 500km ride.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:31 pm

Dutchy wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Anything shorter than 500km in the US is car territory, quicker than dealing with airports, more flexible in low density cities.

GF


That is indeed a uniquely American problem, the layout of the US cities isn't that smart, just a drag of endless homes, quite inefficient and to be blunt it doesn't make your cities very attractive from my point of view. Then move to electric cars for you 500km ride.

LOL - you are not going to win over any hearts & minds with that sort of talk. :shakehead:

Plus you are opening the floodgates for criticism of European cities based on planning (or lack of it) dating back to medieval times.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:57 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Anything shorter than 500km in the US is car territory, quicker than dealing with airports, more flexible in low density cities.

GF


That is indeed a uniquely American problem, the layout of the US cities isn't that smart, just a drag of endless homes, quite inefficient and to be blunt it doesn't make your cities very attractive from my point of view. Then move to electric cars for you 500km ride.

LOL - you are not going to win over any hearts & minds with that sort of talk. :shakehead:

Plus you are opening the floodgates for criticism of European cities based on planning (or lack of it) dating back to medieval times.



I know, but what ever made you think I want to win over the hears and mind of somebody like Falaxyflyer?

Go your gang for criticism of European cities, take your best shot, don't care 8-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
mham001
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:25 pm

Dutchy wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

That is indeed a uniquely American problem, the layout of the US cities isn't that smart, just a drag of endless homes, quite inefficient and to be blunt it doesn't make your cities very attractive from my point of view. Then move to electric cars for you 500km ride.

LOL - you are not going to win over any hearts & minds with that sort of talk. :shakehead:

Plus you are opening the floodgates for criticism of European cities based on planning (or lack of it) dating back to medieval times.



I know, but what ever made you think I want to win over the hears and mind of somebody like Falaxyflyer?

Go your gang for criticism of European cities, take your best shot, don't care 8-)


Why can't you just learn to accept that people in different places are different? Different histories, geographies, needs, etc, etc, etc.

Why is that so hard for Europeans to accept?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:35 pm

mham001 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
LOL - you are not going to win over any hearts & minds with that sort of talk. :shakehead:

Plus you are opening the floodgates for criticism of European cities based on planning (or lack of it) dating back to medieval times.



I know, but what ever made you think I want to win over the hears and mind of somebody like Falaxyflyer?

Go your gang for criticism of European cities, take your best shot, don't care 8-)


Why can't you just learn to accept that people in different places are different? Different histories, geographies, needs, etc, etc, etc.

Why is that so hard for Europeans to accept?


It isn't and I accept. But we all have to move forward, we live in one world and have to take care of that, for us, for our children and our children's children.

So America has to overcome their challenge of making these cities monstrousness work in a framework of sustainability.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:10 pm

I actually like European cities a lot, there is a much to admire in their compactness, efficiency and, yes, charm. But Americans want space and lots of it. The average American new home is now 2,700 square feet, nearly double the size in 1970. I know a family of four that live in 6,000 square feet, the living area nearly requires walkie-talkies.

GF
 
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Dutchy
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:24 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I actually like European cities a lot, there is a much to admire in their compactness, efficiency and, yes, charm. But Americans want space and lots of it. The average American new home is now 2,700 square feet, nearly double the size in 1970. I know a family of four that live in 6,000 square feet, the living area nearly requires walkie-talkies.

GF


You can do whatever you want, as long as you do not harm others. And others in the broad sense in the sense of all of humanity.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
mham001
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:28 pm

Dutchy wrote:
You can do whatever you want, as long as you do not harm others. And others in the broad sense in the sense of all of humanity.


And the popular corrections often do more harm than good. For example: Europe/diesel.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:30 pm

mham001 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
You can do whatever you want, as long as you do not harm others. And others in the broad sense in the sense of all of humanity.


And the popular corrections often do more harm than good. For example: Europe/diesel.


Fair point, but not the popular corrections, the easy correction. There needs to be a substantial shift and that can't be done easily.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:55 pm

As long as we meet our building codes, isn’t used for illegal activities; it’s all harmless. Unless, of course, the Dutch Army wants to impose its sovereignty over the US and rewrite the codes. Good Luck, future William of Orange.

“All of humanity” doesn’t have sovereignty over us. The per capital carbon emissions in the US is at 1918 levels and has decreased each of the last 7 years.

GF
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:59 pm

mham001 wrote:
And the popular corrections often do more harm than good. For example: Europe/diesel.

Has it really done more harm than good?
I am assuming you are concentrating on the growth in numbers of private cars in Europe. Not the very many other uses, which typically contribute more to the problem, and yet in many cases have remained unchanged since..... Noah looked at options for refitting his Ark. :lol:
Image

Go back to when new efficient small diesel engines first started replacing petrol engines in private cars. Was it such a bad idea then?
Were the gasoline engines available at that time a better option? :shakehead:

If nothing else, the switch to diesel gave added impetus to manufacturers of gas engines to make them better.
This has happened to a large extent.

Now the onus is back on diesel engines to play catch up.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
mham001
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:13 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Go back to when new efficient small diesel engines first started replacing petrol engines in private cars. Was it such a bad idea then?
Were the gasoline engines available at that time a better option? :shakehead:
.


You don't know that at all because they cheated the numbers! Smoke and mirrors, all of it.

BTW, we all understand you posted a picture of the poorly running US diesel truck to try to embarrass somebody (US diesel truck emissions are indeed heavily regulated), but maybe more apropos would be the grey skies of Europe - or a cemetery of the 50,000 premature deaths because of European diesel policies.

And NO, it is not time for diesel to "catch up". It is time to go electric.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:23 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
As long as we meet our building codes, isn’t used for illegal activities; it’s all harmless. Unless, of course, the Dutch Army wants to impose its sovereignty over the US and rewrite the codes. Good Luck, future William of Orange.

“All of humanity” doesn’t have sovereignty over us. The per capital carbon emissions in the US is at 1918 levels and has decreased each of the last 7 years.

GF


No, not all want to settle things with the military, that is so 19th century thinking, man. It is your country has the The Hague invasion act passed to your parliament, so we are under tread from you guys.

Anyhow, "“All of humanity” doesn’t have sovereignty over us." but you donot have sovereignty of all of humankind either, so harming rest of humanity will have consequences, it is inevitable.

"The per capital carbon emissions in the US is at 1918 levels" can you provide proof please, or was 1918 a pretty bad year for emissions in the US.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:27 pm

mham001 wrote:
And NO, it is not time for diesel to "catch up". It is time to go electric.


:checkmark: Correct. Diesel's time has passed.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:19 pm

Try this, but shows 1950. I can’t find in my history the link to 1918

https://eidclimate.org/u-s-per-capita-carbon-emissions-at-lowest-levels-since-1950-thanks-to-natural-gas/

You want to argue who’s the threat, look to China which continues to rise steeply. The US could stop emitting and the carbon emissions would increase

GF
 
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Dutchy
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:46 pm

no no no, you cannot point to China and make that your reasoning to do nothing. In that case you could do a hell of a lot of other things in the US, because they do that in China as well. China is also producing a lot of stuff, those emissions are with China, but they are producing for America, Canada, EU etc., so that is not entirely fair, now is it. And the same for this article, in 1950 not a lot of stuff was imported, now it is, so primary numbers they might be right, but the overall number?! And of course, the absolute number has increased because of the increasing population.
We are all the thread, no exceptions.

Interesting article though. perhaps the most interesting is that the carbon emissions went down while the GDP went up, so we can do this, without hurting our economy too much in the short term and it is far batter in the long term. So com'on GF, we can do it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:13 pm

Yes, and it’s being done in a comparatively free market economy which has grown circa 30% without huge government direction. Largely thru natural gas use for electrical generation exploited by fracking. If I I am correct, a process not widely used in Europe.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:19 pm

mham001 wrote:
BTW, we all understand you posted a picture of the poorly running US diesel truck to try to embarrass somebody (US diesel truck emissions are indeed heavily regulated), but maybe more apropos would be the grey skies of Europe - or a cemetery of the 50,000 premature deaths because of European diesel policies.

BTW, "we" all understand …. how many are you speaking for now?
Because all your imaginary friends know exactly where I sourced that image from; the clue is in the internet address.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_ex ... -smoke.jpg

You can see for yourself that I had the choice of precisely two pictures from the web page pertaining to diesel particulates;
One photo was of a Class 55 Deltic locomotive, an old black & white photo taken in July 1966.
It isn't exactly current, and besides I've already spammed one thread this week with references to Deltic (the powerplant within, not the BR locomotive) - ask Galaxy Flyer ;)

So that just left the photo of a truck "rolling coal".
You say it is a US truck; I can't say that I really noticed.
But thanks for not disappointing us with your paranoia. :lol:


Here's another image from Wikipedia, on the subject of diesel particulate filters.
Since you felt the need to trumpet the fact that Europe is a cesspit, and "US diesel truck emissions are indeed heavily regulated", you will forgive me if I balance your bias with a photo depicting a DPF fitted to a Peugeot.
If that still means grey skies all over Europe, I guess we shall have to take your word for it.
Image

And NO, it is not time for diesel to "catch up". It is time to go electric.

I've only one thing to say to that.
:bigthumbsup:
(but only in Europe where they desperately need it before they all die; US skies are clean enough as it is.... apparently.)

BTW - I clicked on your link for "cheated the numbers", but it didn't go anywhere. Likewise I missed your link to your source for "50,000 deaths".
Indulge me, s'il vous plait!
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
mham001
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:30 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
mham001 wrote:
BTW, we all understand you posted a picture of the poorly running US diesel truck to try to embarrass somebody (US diesel truck emissions are indeed heavily regulated), but maybe more apropos would be the grey skies of Europe - or a cemetery of the 50,000 premature deaths because of European diesel policies.

BTW, "we" all understand …. how many are you speaking for now?
Because all your imaginary friends know exactly where I sourced that image from; the clue is in the internet address.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_ex ... -smoke.jpg

You can see for yourself that I had the choice of precisely two pictures from the web page pertaining to diesel particulates;
One photo was of a Class 55 Deltic locomotive, an old black & white photo taken in July 1966.
It isn't exactly current, and besides I've already spammed one thread this week with references to Deltic (the powerplant within, not the BR locomotive) - ask Galaxy Flyer ;)

So that just left the photo of a truck "rolling coal".
You say it is a US truck; I can't say that I really noticed.
But thanks for not disappointing us with your paranoia. :lol:


Here's another image from Wikipedia, on the subject of diesel particulate filters.
Since you felt the need to trumpet the fact that Europe is a cesspit, and "US diesel truck emissions are indeed heavily regulated", you will forgive me if I balance your bias with a photo depicting a DPF fitted to a Peugeot.
If that still means grey skies all over Europe, I guess we shall have to take your word for it.
Image

And NO, it is not time for diesel to "catch up". It is time to go electric.

I've only one thing to say to that.
:bigthumbsup:
(but only in Europe where they desperately need it before they all die; US skies are clean enough as it is.... apparently.)

BTW - I clicked on your link for "cheated the numbers", but it didn't go anywhere. Likewise I missed your link to your source for "50,000 deaths".
Indulge me, s'il vous plait!


Right. Because there are only TWO pictures of diesel smoke on the internet. You're funny. Not.

And no, I am not doing your research here, I've already done it and posted it before. You might want to look into pollution levels around the world. Also 'diesel particulate deaths' should be an easy one for you. Maybe. But since you haven't wrapped your head around the VW scandal yet, maybe not.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: U.S. Politicians propose Green-New-Deal. Air Travel to Become Unnecessary

Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:52 am

mham001 wrote:
Right. Because there are only TWO pictures of diesel smoke on the internet. You're funny. Not.

Wrong again.
There were only two (relevant) pictures on the site I regularly use for most purposes (Wikipedia), amongst other reasons because their photos are easy to access, come in a variety of sizes, with links that are acceptable to the software running these boards, and are typically free of copyright.
I didn't realize I was supposed to look elsewhere just so as not to offend certain delicate snowflakes. :roll:

mham001 wrote:
And no, I am not doing your research here, I've already done it and posted it before. You might want to look into pollution levels around the world. Also 'diesel particulate deaths' should be an easy one for you. Maybe. But since you haven't wrapped your head around the VW scandal yet, maybe not.

There you go again, making assumptions about me that have no basis in fact.
Do you recall saying this, barely 2 hours ago, to somebody else here?
mham001 wrote:
You like to throw a lot of shit around without having any knowledge of whom you are talking to.
Now see if you can guess what you are doing?


Nevertheless I followed up your tip to look at diesel particulate deaths and came up with a Fortune.com article, headed "An alarming number of people have died from dirty diesel engines". This was a bad start. I prepared myself for the worst.
It went on "More than 500,000 Europeans a year may be dying from conditions related to air pollution,"
I admit, for almost ten seconds I was fooled by the thought of not just the 50,000 deaths you claimed, but ten times that figure. :o
Then all the pieces started to fall into place.
Deaths due to "DIRTY diesel engines". The sort that are old and inefficient and gush smoke, just like the photo that so upset you.
"....MAY be dying from..." as in we cannot be certain.
"..conditions related to air pollution" as in ALL forms of air pollution.
And at the very end of the Fortune article, there was a video titled "Study connects 60 deaths to VW diesel scandal"
How many million VW diesels were said to be affected? The VW-Audi group is certainly one of the biggest players when it comes to diesel cars.

I don't doubt that scientists have belatedly "discovered" that diesels come with their own issues, but which of the various figures should I believe?

Meanwhile, having invited me to compare pollution levels around the world, my eye is immediately drawn to the fact that Europe has over twice the population density of the US.
Even within the US itself, pollution is clearly concentrated in areas of higher population density. If you could take the East Coast, the West Coast, and maybe Illinois, and squeeze out the rest, you would probably find pollution levels equal to or higher than Europe. I would post a graphic illustrating this, but that would most probably upset you (again).
Nothing to see here; move along please.
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