Dieuwer
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:42 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
[On February 11, 2004 California issued the nation's first ever license to marry between a same-sex couple. It was met with an executive order from Republican governor Schwarzenegger demanding a halt, and an injunction from the state Supreme Court because the Bush Administration ran to the US Supreme Court demanding an injunction pending their February 18, 2004 call for a constitutional amendment preventing.

Massachusetts didn't begin issuing licenses until May 17, 2004; all as the nation's ire was focused on CA for being the first state to *actually* grant them to gay couples.


The "granting" was indeed a couple months earlier. Not so much the "enjoying".
I also remember local friends being mad at the LDS church for interfering in CA politics.
Last edited by Dieuwer on Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:45 pm

The problem is where you want to put things like this, you have to necessarily disrupt the lives of those who will use it.

It's why one of the first places considered for hyperloop is St. Louis to Kansas City. Aside from Columbia and to a lesser extent Jefferson City, there isn't much between the two to obstruct that construction. Moreover, the landscape is very conducive to it - it's all plains (go 30 miles south of hwy 70 and it's ozarks and not as easy). Problem is, there isn't enough passengers traveling that corridor to make it profitable. Fortunately there is a lot of cargo moving between those places so you'll see hyperloop make moves towards freight transport (already identified in the hyperloop topics we've had).

Jurisdictions need to start identifying ahead of time locations where they may need future infrastructure growth so they can create keep out zones essentially. Anyone buying houses/land on the perimeter of such zones should receive a notice that in the future there may be a freeway or a high speed rail moving through their backyard and they forfeit any objections to such.
 
LAXBUR
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:56 pm

slider wrote:
"No!!! Nooooo! Don't cancel the choo-choo, California! I can make sure we do it the *right way! Trust me! The future of the planet depends on it!"


--Alexandria Occasional-Cortex


The political devolution of this country is why things will continue to never get done. Neat though how people are so wound up about a junior congressperson.

Also, I do enjoy the complete irony of using high real estate prices as an argument California is broken. Do people not understand supply and demand? Contrary to popular belief California is still highly desirable. That’s why real estate is so expensive. There’s more demand than supply. People continue to move here. On top of that you’re seeing middle class leave and be replaced with high income earners. No doubt regulation and zoning impact supply, but you see so many “luxury” apartments built because that’s where developers can make money - because that’s who’s moving to California. There are a lot of problems in California, but the right’s prayers for California to implode are embarrassing and counterproductive. Plus, all these people in red states that complain about Californians coming to their state sure don’t seem to mind cashing in on it either through selling their homes or getting equity loans with their new found equity.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:06 pm

One thing that California has not properly accounted for financially is its great weather (relatively speaking). The climate is so moderate that money that other states have to spend on heating, shoveling roads (hello Massachusetts winters) or cooling (hello Massachusetts muggy summers) can now be spend on other things.
In short, Californians are very lucky with the climate, as it probably is one of the best places on earth to live.
Last edited by Dieuwer on Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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casinterest
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:08 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
The problem is where you want to put things like this, you have to necessarily disrupt the lives of those who will use it.

It's why one of the first places considered for hyperloop is St. Louis to Kansas City. Aside from Columbia and to a lesser extent Jefferson City, there isn't much between the two to obstruct that construction. Moreover, the landscape is very conducive to it - it's all plains (go 30 miles south of hwy 70 and it's ozarks and not as easy). Problem is, there isn't enough passengers traveling that corridor to make it profitable. Fortunately there is a lot of cargo moving between those places so you'll see hyperloop make moves towards freight transport (already identified in the hyperloop topics we've had).

Jurisdictions need to start identifying ahead of time locations where they may need future infrastructure growth so they can create keep out zones essentially. Anyone buying houses/land on the perimeter of such zones should receive a notice that in the future there may be a freeway or a high speed rail moving through their backyard and they forfeit any objections to such.



No matter when you decide to move forward with a project. The land is always cheaper than it will be in the future. At some point rights of way need to be purchased and complicated construction has to begin.

These high speed rails between SFO and LAX only make sense in a long term world where there are a few stops to make it viable to other destinations.

The critical problem with HSR is that it is high speed, but if it isn't cheaper than taking an Uber to the airport and hopping a flight, then it probably doesn't stand a good chance. Freight is the key for HSR, just as it has been in Japan. Japan has spent 50-60 years building out HSR, and they have a system that everyone is envious of. Here in the states we have spent 60-70 years building out the Interstate Highway System. It has it's benefits, but HSR would be a game changer. Perhaps the US is to spread out, but it isn't getting less dense. At some point someone has to put the step forward to build it out.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:15 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
slider wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
$77B?? :eyepopping:

I am all in favor of HSR, but not at that price. This was a good idea with a really bad execution


I'm just going to excerpt you right there.

First of all, there is NO rail project in the US, outside of the eastern corridor, that can be self-sustaining financially, and even then that's in question when you examine Amtrak, infrastructure issues, the high mx costs, rights of way and access, etc, etc.

In the US, HSR is not a good idea. A bad plan with great execution still makes it a bad plan. A shitty plan with horrid execution (ie: government run, mismanaged, over-budget, runaway costs with no accountability) is just typical of Moonbeam's special universe inside his head. I applaud Newsom for throwing in the towel and not putting good money after bad (also coincides with the announcement of the state tax receipts being a few billion off).

The population density and traffic flows in this country just simply do not--as a general rule--support HSR. There might be a one-off, but you don't spend that kind of money to support one-offs. This fascination people still have with HSR is baffling. It's a sexy, seductive and great thought (trust me, I think it'd be cool as hell), but at the end of the day, sexy and cool don't pay the bills.

I think there are several places in the US that could support HSR, if you could get it constructed without the environmental reviews and property acquisition killing you (I realize this is a big if). Northeast corridor, Florida, Texas, and even California. I wonder how the economics would look if the right of way was acquired the same way as it was for the interstates back in the 60's?


It was acquired by eminent domain then, paid FMV, big issue when CT Thurway passed about 200 yards from home. The population then was half of today’s population. Vast swaths of US empty. A friend used to play ball on I-91 there was so little traffic in northern MA. it costs more per mile, in real dollars, to add a third lane today than cost to build the interstates in the 1960s. Safety, environmental laws, working around traffic added a lot of expense.

GF
 
blockski
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:33 pm

mham001 wrote:
Nonsense on Altamont, bypassing Silicon Valley and the largest city in the Bay Area while requiring a hundred(?) miles of extra track is stupid.

And yes, the populated areas are the big problem, that is where the most resistance is. Pretty sure they almost blocked it on the Peninsula.


Which is precisely why Altamont is a superior option: lower cost, faster service to both SF and SJ (the idea that they'd bypass Silicon Valley is absurd) and it actually reduces the overall track required, particularly for other markets, like SF and SJ to Sacramento.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:43 pm

For the cost and time of 40 visits to Schultz’s Starbucks having a vente latte, you could fly round trip SFO-LAX. Fare includes both variable and capital costs to profitable Southwest Airlines. When that fact changes, HSR rules.



GF
 
slider
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:02 pm

LAXBUR wrote:
slider wrote:
"No!!! Nooooo! Don't cancel the choo-choo, California! I can make sure we do it the *right way! Trust me! The future of the planet depends on it!"


--Alexandria Occasional-Cortex


The political devolution of this country is why things will continue to never get done. Neat though how people are so wound up about a junior congressperson.

Also, I do enjoy the complete irony of using high real estate prices as an argument California is broken. Do people not understand supply and demand? Contrary to popular belief California is still highly desirable. That’s why real estate is so expensive. There’s more demand than supply. People continue to move here. On top of that you’re seeing middle class leave and be replaced with high income earners. No doubt regulation and zoning impact supply, but you see so many “luxury” apartments built because that’s where developers can make money - because that’s who’s moving to California. There are a lot of problems in California, but the right’s prayers for California to implode are embarrassing and counterproductive. Plus, all these people in red states that complain about Californians coming to their state sure don’t seem to mind cashing in on it either through selling their homes or getting equity loans with their new found equity.


CA has net negative migration rate, FYI. Hey, I love CA in a lot of ways, and don't want it to fail, but it certainly seems to be having plenty of things to worry about. Leftist politics are not the answer in any regard. And as a Texan, I'm seeing CA people come here for a better life and then replicate the same dopey schemes that created the very conditions they wanted to escape.

But to your point about luxury developers, CA has more of a chasm between the rich and poor than almost anywhere I've seen in my global travels.

https://www.businessinsider.com/state-d ... 017-2018-1
 
mham001
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:35 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
One thing that California has not properly accounted for financially is its great weather (relatively speaking). The climate is so moderate that money that other states have to spend on heating, shoveling roads (hello Massachusetts winters) or cooling (hello Massachusetts muggy summers) can now be spend on other things.
In short, Californians are very lucky with the climate, as it probably is one of the best places on earth to live.


They spent that money a long time ago.

Every time they raise our electric and gas rates, they downplay it by saying that we don't pay more per month than the "average American", while our electric rates are the highest in the country. effing thieves, we are not allowed the good climate break.
 
mham001
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:39 pm

blockski wrote:
Which is precisely why Altamont is a superior option: lower cost, faster service to both SF and SJ (the idea that they'd bypass Silicon Valley is absurd) and it actually reduces the overall track required, particularly for other markets, like SF and SJ to Sacramento.


You are going to have to explain how travelling 50 miles north to go south is beneficial to the south bay. it's not, it's a waste. Pacheco Pass is not insurmountable and the people who made the decision to run it south (several times I think) knew it.
 
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seb146
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:13 pm

mham001 wrote:
blockski wrote:
Which is precisely why Altamont is a superior option: lower cost, faster service to both SF and SJ (the idea that they'd bypass Silicon Valley is absurd) and it actually reduces the overall track required, particularly for other markets, like SF and SJ to Sacramento.


You are going to have to explain how travelling 50 miles north to go south is beneficial to the south bay. it's not, it's a waste. Pacheco Pass is not insurmountable and the people who made the decision to run it south (several times I think) knew it.


The Altamont Commuter Express is already established and runs across the Altamont Pass between San Jose to Stockton every week day. Yes, it is out of the way for a San Francisco-Los Angeles rail line, but the tracks are already there and in use and kept up. People were complaining about the cost of this thing but isn't this a cost savings? To use established tracks?

https://www.acerail.com/
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
NIKV69
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:17 pm

ScottB wrote:

California is a horrible market for HSR. The geography drives up costs massively and the distance between the two key urban centers means that anything short of 160 mph+ average speed on a direct route won't be competitive in journey time with air travel. Moreover, with LA and SF both being sprawling metropolises, high speed rail is potentially far less convenient for passengers who are far from the train stations; i.e. for someone in the East Bay who travels to the O.C., OAK-SNA is still going to win hands-down over travel to downtown SF, train to downtown LA, travel to Orange County. One takes two hours and the other half a day.

Worse yet, California has the world's most virulent NIMBYs, so good luck getting any sort of rail line capable of high-speed operation built anywhere within 50 to 75 miles of the urban centers. They started the project in the Central Valley largely because the land is flat and mostly farmland, and most of the cities are depressed and saw the economic opportunity rather harping on how traumatic it would be to have to suffer through living X miles from the HSR.

"


Great summary. I think money would be more spend on airport infrastructure and encouraging airlines to have more flights.. I would rather fly LAS-LAX SAN-LAX etc.
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die.
 
blockski
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:45 pm

mham001 wrote:
blockski wrote:
Which is precisely why Altamont is a superior option: lower cost, faster service to both SF and SJ (the idea that they'd bypass Silicon Valley is absurd) and it actually reduces the overall track required, particularly for other markets, like SF and SJ to Sacramento.


You are going to have to explain how travelling 50 miles north to go south is beneficial to the south bay. it's not, it's a waste. Pacheco Pass is not insurmountable and the people who made the decision to run it south (several times I think) knew it.


It’s beneficial to the entire project; it would still provide more than adequate service to San Jose while offering faster service overall, cheaper infrastructure, and feasted project delivery.

More here: http://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/2011/1 ... ading.html
 
mham001
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:55 pm

blockski wrote:
mham001 wrote:
blockski wrote:
Which is precisely why Altamont is a superior option: lower cost, faster service to both SF and SJ (the idea that they'd bypass Silicon Valley is absurd) and it actually reduces the overall track required, particularly for other markets, like SF and SJ to Sacramento.


You are going to have to explain how travelling 50 miles north to go south is beneficial to the south bay. it's not, it's a waste. Pacheco Pass is not insurmountable and the people who made the decision to run it south (several times I think) knew it.


It’s beneficial to the entire project; it would still provide more than adequate service to San Jose while offering faster service overall, cheaper infrastructure, and feasted project delivery.

More here: http://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/2011/1 ... ading.html


The graphic there doesn't really say that, unless you look at the new route down I5, which would cut out the Central Valley cities.

But reading further, this website seems to be speaking for those peninsula NIMBYs.
 
psa188
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:16 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
but the overwhelming majority of the state NEVER wanted it.
How is it hypocritical, to turn down something that most of us didn't want to begin with????


Ten years ago, voters approved the bonds that got the HSR project moving. It was later, when people woke up to all of the chicanery and nonsense at CHSRA, that public opinion began to sour.
 
psa188
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:17 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
but the overwhelming majority of the state NEVER wanted it.
How is it hypocritical, to turn down something that most of us didn't want to begin with????


Ten years ago, voters approved the bonds that got the HSR project moving. It was later, when people woke up to all of the chicanery and nonsense at CHSRA, that public opinion began to sour.
 
FATFlyer
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:35 am

Governor Gavin Newsom met this afternoon with the mayors of Fresno, Bakersfield, and Merced to discuss high speed rail.

After the meeting, Gov. Newsom told the media:
“Right now, it’s a project – with the money that we’ve identified – that can be completed between Merced and Bakersfield,” he said. “At the same time, we can anchor the future by concurrently doing the environmental work to get it Valley to Valley and ultimately make a case, once it’s completed here in 2027, for the private sector and the federal government to get it down to Los Angeles.”
http://www.fresnobee.com/news/politics-government/politics-columns-blogs/political-notebook/article226242400.html


It will be interesting to see if that statement was just to appease HSR supporters or if Newsom's move as I said earlier in the thread is just a political pause to take pressure off.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
mham001
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:46 am

Lots of people are questioning the idea of spending all that money to connect Bakersfield and Merced. This not exactly a high density corridor. What is he thinking?

Now Trump wants the federal money back.
 
ozglobal
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:07 am

To all of you singing alleluia at the demise of this initiative, you should rather be in lament that your country is now just about the only industrialized country officially incapable of any major infrastructure project. The equivalent of LA - SF has been built a number of times throughout the world, in a small fraction of the time and the cost.

Strange to celebrate such ineptitude.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
marcelh
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:42 am

aviationaware wrote:
How many billions have been wasted on this incredibly stupid vanity project by now?

Just a fraction of what the USA has spent in the Middle East.....
 
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Jouhou
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:51 am

SANMAN66 wrote:
California already has a bullet train. It's
named Southwest Airlines.


As much as we might be aviation fans here, I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking air travel, with the airport experience in particular, has become extremely miserable and would rather have rail travel as an option for relatively short distances like what the proposed rail service was supposed to connect.
 
af773atmsp
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:11 pm

Jouhou wrote:
SANMAN66 wrote:
California already has a bullet train. It's
named Southwest Airlines.


As much as we might be aviation fans here, I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking air travel, with the airport experience in particular, has become extremely miserable and would rather have rail travel as an option for relatively short distances like what the proposed rail service was supposed to connect.


I'll agree with you there. Yes sometimes the plane is a necessity, but for markets like LA-SF the train can and should make sense to take instead.

The majority of my traveling in Europe was by train. No security, no having to get to/from the airport, and I could easily walk around. The only complaint I have is the lack of luggage space and in a few cases overcrowded trains.

When I visit my friend in LA I'm thinking of taking the Coast Starlight to SF. If I do I'm definitely getting a roomette since it's a long travel time (12-14 hours).
DC10-40,MD88,A319,A320,A332,717,722,733,737,738,752,ATR-72,736,788
SY,DL,FI,FL,BA,EI,NW,MG,DY,EZY,F9,WN,SN,ET,SK
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:23 pm

Jouhou wrote:
SANMAN66 wrote:
California already has a bullet train. It's
named Southwest Airlines.

As much as we might be aviation fans here, I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking air travel, with the airport experience in particular, has become extremely miserable and would rather have rail travel as an option for relatively short distances like what the proposed rail service was supposed to connect.

No, you are not alone.
I would add that being packed like sardines into a featureless twin engine tin-can that looks just like every other tin can in the sky, isn't particularly rewarding either.

But to state as such risks several kinds of abuse criticism from narrow- slightly less open-minded individuals.

AirFiero wrote:
I am curious why you and others are here on any aviation forum and are willing to eliminate some portion of aviation activity?

AirFiero wrote:
[It] makes no sense for a supposed aviation enthusiast to want less aviation activity and/or choices and freedom.
I guess extra choices in terms of {train + plane} vs just planes doesn't count?

timh4000 wrote:
How is it you are viewing me.... as a far right anti environment type?
Would you want to see her (*) successfully dismantle public aviation? If so. Why are you on this forum, other than the obvious trolling...

(*) her = AOC or Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, aka the devil in high heels :twisted:

Do I smell fear in the air? A hint of desperation perhaps?
It seems like some here are very worried in case HSR actually works ( :o ), and that would mean..... the end of the world.
Someone needs to explain that in actual terms these proposals are to help prevent the end of the world.
Then again, I'll be dead by then, so why should I care? :banghead:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
slider
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:08 pm

ozglobal wrote:
To all of you singing alleluia at the demise of this initiative, you should rather be in lament that your country is now just about the only industrialized country officially incapable of any major infrastructure project. The equivalent of LA - SF has been built a number of times throughout the world, in a small fraction of the time and the cost.

Strange to celebrate such ineptitude.


Thank you for contributing.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:18 pm

af773atmsp wrote:
I'll agree with you there. Yes sometimes the plane is a necessity, but for markets like LA-SF the train can and should make sense to take instead.

The majority of my traveling in Europe was by train. No security, no having to get to/from the airport, and I could easily walk around.
The only complaint I have is the lack of luggage space and in a few cases overcrowded trains.

Lack of luggage space?
Clearly you should have taken the plane, because as we all know planes have lots of.... oh, hang on.

These overcrowded trains you found in Europe; were any of them HSR?

For the benefit of everyone else on these boards, many of whom seem to have never used a train in the entire lives - local commuter services are often packed, and offer a unique feature that I've never seen available on aircraft , known as "standing room only". :rotfl:
I confess that it's not the best way to travel, but for 20-30 minutes it can be acceptable, and quite often during that period passengers get off at earlier stations, which in turn makes seats available, so it often resolves itself quite quickly.

However I'm not aware of it being a regular feature on most HSR. Or indeed any HSR, even in Japan.
https://soranews24.com/2018/07/19/these ... okyo-area/
In fact, given their high speeds, just like aeroplanes, I suspect everyone on an HSR must have a seat assigned to them. And quite a comfortable seat too, particularly compared to aircraft.

Data for the standard Eurostar carriage (class 373) is 61ft4' long and carries 56 pax. My best estimate from seat plans is that 44ft is taken up by seating, with the remainder assigned to luggage racks, toilets, and exit doors.
So, 14 rows of seats @ 37" seat pitch, (2 x 2) with no suffering in middle seats, and a proper corridor affording access to the buffet car.
What's not to like?

On the other hand, nobody wants to see this.
Image
Thx to engrave.in
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:33 pm

Interesting fun fact, even a basic HSR system in the US would equal 10 French TGV systems. Chicago to LA is a greater distance than the entire TGV system and would involve the equivalent of crossing the Alps twice.

GF
 
psa188
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:36 pm

ozglobal wrote:
Strange to celebrate such ineptitude.


Nobody is celebrating the fact that CHSRA is inept. We are celebrating that Newsom is not throwing good money after bad.
 
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cranberrysaus
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:51 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Interesting fun fact, even a basic HSR system in the US would equal 10 French TGV systems. Chicago to LA is a greater distance than the entire TGV system and would involve the equivalent of crossing the Alps twice.

GF


That seems like an extreme example though. Chicago-LA seems obviously better for flying. What about Dallas-Houston, Miami-Orlando, or Seattle-Portland?

They could even complement each other. I though a few years ago instead of building a second ATL airport, one proposal was to build HSR linking Atlanta to CHA.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:02 pm

Not extreme to the AOC idea of eliminating air travel

GF
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:23 pm

seb146 wrote:
The Altamont Commuter Express is already established and runs across the Altamont Pass between San Jose to Stockton every week day. Yes, it is out of the way for a San Francisco-Los Angeles rail line, but the tracks are already there and in use and kept up. People were complaining about the cost of this thing but isn't this a cost savings? To use established tracks?


I'm not an expert in this area but I recall reading something a while back about how HSR frequently can't used established tracks as is. The train goes so fast that the tolerances needed in the rails themselves are much tighter. The tracks have to be kept smooth, the turns have to be designed correctly, etc. If the high speed train has to travel over conventional rails, it often has to slow down.

Consider the Amtrak Cascades derailment in December 2017. The train was going too fast over a section of track and derailed. The same principle applies here. ACE trains have a top speed of 79 miles per hour, while CHSR is designed for 220 miles per hour. While the tracks may be able to handle higher speeds than 79mph, I doubt they can handle 220mph so they'd need significant upgrades anyway.

Also consider that sharing tracks between high speed and conventional trains presents some scheduling challenges. Different trains moving at different speeds means trains have to pass each other. And you need to make sure that the commuter rail stations are set up to allow the high speed trains to bypass them, since long haul intercity trains (high speed or not) generally don't stop at every station used by commuter rail.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3700
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:34 pm

Read this on how NYC subway expansion costs $3.5 billion per mile

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html
 
ozglobal
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:05 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Interesting fun fact, even a basic HSR system in the US would equal 10 French TGV systems. Chicago to LA is a greater distance than the entire TGV system and would involve the equivalent of crossing the Alps twice.

GF


No, that would be fun “fake news””, not fact. If all phases of the California HSR were to be completed they would comprise 1 300km. Just the Paris to Marseille HS line is nearly 900km. The total network is 2 500 to 3 000km.

No one has ever suggest a realistic HSR journey from Chicago to LA. HSR is effective on the corridors identified. To propose a nationwide network is a disingenuous straw man.

Count the tunnels and viaducts on the Mediterranean, East, Atlantic or Rhine - Rhône lines and tell us there are more on SF - LA.

This is shallow propaganda.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1703
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:38 pm

Lets get a few thing out in the open..some truly recognized, some not. This whole HSR was a sop to the contractors consortiums and labor unions that contributed to Jerry's campaign on the first term of this second set of terms as guv. There have been enough leaks about the actual cost before the vote and not too darn long after that the proposal was at least 30-40 Billion short. likely more. Much more as we discovered. Then the revelation that it would NOT be HS thru the Tehachapis to LA..at best, 72-79 MPH...almost as good as the Amtrak bus. Then the revelation of NO plan to get into the east bay area, let alone SF. The list goes on and on.

Not that long ago, and I THINK I saw this in the Fresno Bee, there was actually an honest admission that if not completed they would turn what is done over to Amtrak California..which is run by Caltrans as best I know. There is NO way that a true HSR will run from Merced to Bakersfield. IT will be Amtrak California's San Joaquin's..which will enjoy dedicated ROW , and thus sppeds on about 170 miles or so, but will have to shift back to BNSF.
The other little detail is this..new stations to replace the current ones will need to be built along the new alignment..Hanford, Fresno, Madra,and maybe Merced...Who is going to pay for that?
Oh, yes, the taxpayer.

IF someone had exercised some common sense for the billions, maybe a dedicated route along the 5 from Bakersfield to san Fernando could have been built for 6-8 billion..at least you could have had continuous train service multiple times per day along that part of the route also. A few more billions and we could have 3 or 4 laned each direction of the 5 from the Grapevine to Tracy.
the widening of 99 to 3 lanes each way could have been done and raised it to the standards sought to make it I-9 as recommended by Congress years ago.
So much else could have been done..but alas, the taxpayer is still on the hook for billions in bonds that somehow either Amtrak California or ?? is going to have to pay.

Mods..I know I went off topic..I ask for your indulgence..As SANMAN66 says above, we have High speed transport in California...Southwest, American, Alaska., United..all provide solid service in various markets up and down the state and thru the middle as well.

Thanks!
 
slider
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:55 pm

LAX772LR wrote:

...is your idea of "demise?"

That word doesn't mean what you seem to believe it does.


A new Trust Barometer poll reflects that a majority of Californians surveyed want to leave. Paradise, indeed, when 62% want to bail.

https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/a ... =downloads
 
af773atmsp
Posts: 2357
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:08 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
I'll agree with you there. Yes sometimes the plane is a necessity, but for markets like LA-SF the train can and should make sense to take instead.

The majority of my traveling in Europe was by train. No security, no having to get to/from the airport, and I could easily walk around.
The only complaint I have is the lack of luggage space and in a few cases overcrowded trains.

Lack of luggage space?
Clearly you should have taken the plane, because as we all know planes have lots of.... oh, hang on.

These overcrowded trains you found in Europe; were any of them HSR?

For the benefit of everyone else on these boards, many of whom seem to have never used a train in the entire lives - local commuter services are often packed, and offer a unique feature that I've never seen available on aircraft , known as "standing room only". :rotfl:
I confess that it's not the best way to travel, but for 20-30 minutes it can be acceptable, and quite often during that period passengers get off at earlier stations, which in turn makes seats available, so it often resolves itself quite quickly.

However I'm not aware of it being a regular feature on most HSR. Or indeed any HSR, even in Japan.
https://soranews24.com/2018/07/19/these ... okyo-area/
In fact, given their high speeds, just like aeroplanes, I suspect everyone on an HSR must have a seat assigned to them. And quite a comfortable seat too, particularly compared to aircraft.

Data for the standard Eurostar carriage (class 373) is 61ft4' long and carries 56 pax. My best estimate from seat plans is that 44ft is taken up by seating, with the remainder assigned to luggage racks, toilets, and exit doors.
So, 14 rows of seats @ 37" seat pitch, (2 x 2) with no suffering in middle seats, and a proper corridor affording access to the buffet car.
What's not to like?

On the other hand, nobody wants to see this.
Image
Thx to engrave.in


To answer your question about the baggage, I guess it depends on your definition of HSR but in Italy I rode a train that reached around 150 mph and it was packed and people were leaving bags in the aisle, and I rode the X2000 from Stockholm and had the same issue. Easy fix is have more room for baggage and plenty of seating capacity, because as you said standing on commuter trains is fine but when you have to stand on an intercity train and walk over people's bags something's wrong.
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skyservice_330
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:47 pm

slider wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:

...is your idea of "demise?"

That word doesn't mean what you seem to believe it does.


A new Trust Barometer poll reflects that a majority of Californians surveyed want to leave. Paradise, indeed, when 62% want to bail.

https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/a ... =downloads


I don't have a dog in this fight - but if you are referring to the stat on page 6, it says no such thing. The stat on page 6 says:

62% feel that the best days of living in California are behind vs. are ahead.

Which is not remotely close to what you have stated. In fact 'want to leave' does not even show up in the report.
 
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compensateme
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:50 pm

slider wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:
slider wrote:
"No!!! Nooooo! Don't cancel the choo-choo, California! I can make sure we do it the *right way! Trust me! The future of the planet depends on it!"


--Alexandria Occasional-Cortex


The political devolution of this country is why things will continue to never get done. Neat though how people are so wound up about a junior congressperson.

Also, I do enjoy the complete irony of using high real estate prices as an argument California is broken. Do people not understand supply and demand? Contrary to popular belief California is still highly desirable. That’s why real estate is so expensive. There’s more demand than supply. People continue to move here. On top of that you’re seeing middle class leave and be replaced with high income earners. No doubt regulation and zoning impact supply, but you see so many “luxury” apartments built because that’s where developers can make money - because that’s who’s moving to California. There are a lot of problems in California, but the right’s prayers for California to implode are embarrassing and counterproductive. Plus, all these people in red states that complain about Californians coming to their state sure don’t seem to mind cashing in on it either through selling their homes or getting equity loans with their new found equity.


CA has net negative migration rate, FYI. Hey, I love CA in a lot of ways, and don't want it to fail, but it certainly seems to be having plenty of things to worry about. Leftist politics are not the answer in any regard. And as a Texan, I'm seeing CA people come here for a better life and then replicate the same dopey schemes that created the very conditions they wanted to escape.

But to your point about luxury developers, CA has more of a chasm between the rich and poor than almost anywhere I've seen in my global travels.

https://www.businessinsider.com/state-d ... 017-2018-1


In 2017, 63K people moved from CA to TX, but 42K moved from TX to CA:

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi- ... story.html

The article provides a good explanation as to why people are moving out, which, unsurprisingly, is the cost of living. While wacky liberal policies contribute to the problem, reality is supply & demand - more people want to live near the coast in CA than there is housing, which jacks prices up.

While the LA Times is too liberal to tell the truth, the latest wave of wealthy Chinese and Middle Eastern immigrants flooding the state is artificallt jacking housing up. Then again, the Japanese did the same in the late 80s/early 90s and the market corrected itself....
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:08 pm

af773atmsp wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Data for the standard Eurostar carriage (class 373) is 61ft4' long and carries 56 pax. My best estimate from seat plans is that 44ft is taken up by seating, with the remainder assigned to luggage racks, toilets, and exit doors.
So, 14 rows of seats @ 37" seat pitch, (2 x 2) with no suffering in middle seats, and a proper corridor affording access to the buffet car.
What's not to like?

These overcrowded trains you found in Europe; were any of them HSR?


To answer your question about the baggage, I guess it depends on your definition of HSR but in Italy I rode a train that reached around 150 mph and it was packed and people were leaving bags in the aisle, and I rode the X2000 from Stockholm and had the same issue. Easy fix is have more room for baggage and plenty of seating capacity, because as you said standing on commuter trains is fine but when you have to stand on an intercity train and walk over people's bags something's wrong.

I'm hoping the mods will indulge a small deviation off topic here to qualify these points.
The X2000 was designed and launched as 1st class only. Lower density seating, more room for luggage. That soon changed.
In terms of speed, it is very much not HSR.
It once reached 171mph, but only because they added a second locomotive. :rotfl:
The designed max is 130 mph.
In Swedish service it struggles to hit 108 mph on the best sections of line, and overall tends to average 93 mph.
And clearly they have issues regading luggage space too.

As for your experiences on Italian Railways; what can I say?
Italy was one of the first countries to develop the technology for high-speed rail.
Under Mussolini's rule, the trains were never late. Or crowded. Or dirty
Or if they were, somebody was usually shot. :lol:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/loco-motive/

California will get the rail service that California pays for. No more, no less.

Meanwhile, thanks for your response, and thanks also to the mods for their indulgence.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Redd
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:08 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Bradin wrote:
Now the question is if it's incredibly short sighted on Newsom's part

"short sighted?"

This has been going on through multiple gubernatorial administrations and multiple decades, with multiple increases by more than 100% each time.

This should've been killed years, and governors, ago.


I don't see why US infrastructure projects always seem double or triple the cost compared to other countries. HSR/km cost is about double of what it costs in the EU. Triple what it costs in China, California should have just hired the Chinese to design and build the damn line. Would have been done right, on time and way under the budget.
 
mham001
Posts: 5616
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:18 pm

skyservice_330 wrote:
slider wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:

...is your idea of "demise?"

That word doesn't mean what you seem to believe it does.


A new Trust Barometer poll reflects that a majority of Californians surveyed want to leave. Paradise, indeed, when 62% want to bail.

https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/a ... =downloads


I don't have a dog in this fight - but if you are referring to the stat on page 6, it says no such thing. The stat on page 6 says:

62% feel that the best days of living in California are behind vs. are ahead.

Which is not remotely close to what you have stated. In fact 'want to leave' does not even show up in the report.


I don't know about that report but 40+% of Bay Area residents do want to leave in the annual survey. And growing. Source: San Jose Mercury News. High cost of living (not just housing), too many people are the factors. But the politicians want to just keep accommodating more people with more density. It's a beautiful thing for a Democrat, chase all the Americans out and fill it up with immigrants who don't have expectations of good, basic services, such as filling potholes, while promising them lots of free stuff in return for their votes.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:55 pm

mham001 wrote:
skyservice_330 wrote:
slider wrote:

A new Trust Barometer poll reflects that a majority of Californians surveyed want to leave. Paradise, indeed, when 62% want to bail.

https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/a ... =downloads


I don't have a dog in this fight - but if you are referring to the stat on page 6, it says no such thing. The stat on page 6 says:

62% feel that the best days of living in California are behind vs. are ahead.

Which is not remotely close to what you have stated. In fact 'want to leave' does not even show up in the report.


I don't know about that report but 40+% of Bay Area residents do want to leave in the annual survey. And growing. Source: San Jose Mercury News. High cost of living (not just housing), too many people are the factors. But the politicians want to just keep accommodating more people with more density. It's a beautiful thing for a Democrat, chase all the Americans out and fill it up with immigrants who don't have expectations of good, basic services, such as filling potholes, while promising them lots of free stuff in return for their votes.


The number’s now 50%, but again, it’s due to the high cost of living, specifically housing:

www.mercurynews.com/2018/06/03/nearly-h ... leave/amp/

Illegal immigration isn’t fueling this, it’s simply supply-and-demand: the costal areas of California are built out, and more people want to live here than there are housing. Local companies can’t attract enough high-skilled talent to fill jobs, so they turn to out-of-state and foreign recruitments to fill jobs, and these people are willing to pay more for housing (since they make more).

The LA Times article I linked to mentions that most of the people leaving CA do not have a college degree, whereas nearly everyone moving in does (and 50% of immigrants have an advanced degree).
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
mham001
Posts: 5616
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:59 pm

compensateme wrote:
mham001 wrote:
skyservice_330 wrote:

I don't have a dog in this fight - but if you are referring to the stat on page 6, it says no such thing. The stat on page 6 says:

62% feel that the best days of living in California are behind vs. are ahead.

Which is not remotely close to what you have stated. In fact 'want to leave' does not even show up in the report.


I don't know about that report but 40+% of Bay Area residents do want to leave in the annual survey. And growing. Source: San Jose Mercury News. High cost of living (not just housing), too many people are the factors. But the politicians want to just keep accommodating more people with more density. It's a beautiful thing for a Democrat, chase all the Americans out and fill it up with immigrants who don't have expectations of good, basic services, such as filling potholes, while promising them lots of free stuff in return for their votes.


The number’s now 50%, but again, it’s due to the high cost of living, specifically housing:

http://www.mercurynews.com/2018/06/03/n ... leave/amp/

Illegal immigration isn’t fueling this, it’s simply supply-and-demand: the costal areas of California are built out, and more people want to live here than there are housing. Local companies can’t attract enough high-skilled talent to fill jobs, so they turn to out-of-state and foreign recruitments to fill jobs, and these people are willing to pay more for housing (since they make more).

The LA Times article I linked to mentions that most of the people leaving CA do not have a college degree, whereas nearly everyone moving in does (and 50% of immigrants have an advanced degree).


I didn't mention illegal immigration but it does indeed play its role when they stagnate wages in blue collar industries.
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:33 pm

Redd wrote:
I don't see why US infrastructure projects always seem double or triple the cost compared to other countries. HSR/km cost is about double of what it costs in the EU. Triple what it costs in China, California should have just hired the Chinese to design and build the damn line. Would have been done right, on time and way under the budget.


The regulatory and legal environment in the US is quite a bit different than in China. China's government has an authoritarian regime, when the government decides to do something, it just gets done. So you happen to own the land where they're building rail? Too bad, now it's the government's (and under a true communist system, it would have been the government's all along anyway). Can't quite get away with that in the US; as pointed out above, even if the government invokes eminent domain, there's still likely to be years long legal battles.
 
Bradin
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:12 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:58 pm

Redd wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Bradin wrote:
Now the question is if it's incredibly short sighted on Newsom's part

"short sighted?"

This has been going on through multiple gubernatorial administrations and multiple decades, with multiple increases by more than 100% each time.

This should've been killed years, and governors, ago.


I don't see why US infrastructure projects always seem double or triple the cost compared to other countries. HSR/km cost is about double of what it costs in the EU. Triple what it costs in China, California should have just hired the Chinese to design and build the damn line. Would have been done right, on time and way under the budget.


In business, we say "Fast, Good and Cheap". Pick only two.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:01 pm

ozglobal wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Interesting fun fact, even a basic HSR system in the US would equal 10 French TGV systems. Chicago to LA is a greater distance than the entire TGV system and would involve the equivalent of crossing the Alps twice.

GF


No, that would be fun “fake news””, not fact. If all phases of the California HSR were to be completed they would comprise 1 300km. Just the Paris to Marseille HS line is nearly 900km. The total network is 2 500 to 3 000km.

No one has ever suggest a realistic HSR journey from Chicago to LA. HSR is effective on the corridors identified. To propose a nationwide network is a disingenuous straw man.

Count the tunnels and viaducts on the Mediterranean, East, Atlantic or Rhine - Rhône lines and tell us there are more on SF - LA.

This is shallow propaganda.


The FAQ document from AOC planned just that—render air travel unneede. Hard to see how that’d work without nationwide HSR, isn’t it? It’s 800 miles across the mountain west, how many tunnels would be required?

GF
 
af773atmsp
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:38 pm

Clearly they should've been more specific in the Green New Deal because people keep thinking AOC and others want to build transcontinental HSR routes.

I hope that's not their intention and I highly doubt it is, but they're certainly right in wanting to make air travel unnecessary (besides flight connections) on markets like NYC-BOS, LA-SF, SEA-PDX, etc.
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caliboy93
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:33 pm

aviationaware wrote:
How many billions have been wasted on this incredibly stupid vanity project by now?


I agree, it's almost as bad as Trump's wall. At least the high speed project is meant to connect people to each other faster, whereas the wall is to separate people based on ignorance and unfounded fears.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:04 am

af773atmsp wrote:
Clearly they should've been more specific in the Green New Deal because people keep thinking AOC and others want to build transcontinental HSR routes.

If you promise not to tell anybody, I'll share a really radical idea with you; how about reading the original source document. :yes:
I know exactly what you're thinking - that's just a crazy idea!
Who on earth here on a.net would be that STUPID.

:wave:

The whole 14 pages is probably too much for most of you here, so I'll skip most of the long pre-amble except for this gem;
"Whereas the United States has historically been responsible for a disproportionate amount of greenhouse gas emissions,..."
Oh yes, that's what she said folks. :lol:
Now, here are the important bits, with just enough waffle to show how it hangs together.
Page 6, paragraph (2) wrote:
The "Green New Deal Goals" should be accomplished through a 10-year national mobilization that will require the following projects -

Then, approximately half way down a long list of green projects (paragraphs A to N) we find paragraph (H)
Page 8, paragraph (H) wrote:
- overhauling transportation systems in the United States to remove pollution and greenhouse gas emissions from the transport sector
as much as is technologically feasible

Those last few words there in italics, that's what's known in latin as a caveat, a qualification or an exemption.
If I was going to quibble about anything, I would have added "and economically feasible", which sets no actual limits, but stops the extreme lunatics from coming up with totally crazy scenarios. :banghead:

AOC goes on
Page 8, paragraph (H), sub section (i) to (iii) wrote:
including through investment in-
(i) zero-emission vehicle infrastructure and manufacturing;
(ii) clean, affordable, and accessible public transit; and

Brace yourself, here comes the big one, what we are all arguing about...
(iii) high-speed rail


I know what you're thinking; where is the rest of it? Why have I only quoted those three little words.

The answer is; that's all she wrote. :rotfl:
She didn't mention air travel at all.
I even searched the document for any mention of aircraft or airlines. Nothing. Nada.
She did mention the US taking a leading role in reducing emissions through economic transformation.
Everything else here is pure manufactured BS.

So yeah, she could be talking about HSR across the Rockies, as much as is technologically feasible

I'm sorry if that helping of common-sense is a big disappointment to y'all.

Meanwhile, do carry on arguing amongst yourselves over what you think is written in the document. :roll:

https://apps.npr.org/documents/document ... Resolution
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2812
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:10 am

caliboy93 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
How many billions have been wasted on this incredibly stupid vanity project by now?


I agree, it's almost as bad as Trump's wall. At least the high speed project is meant to connect people to each other faster, whereas the wall is to separate people based on ignorance and unfounded fears.


Calling hundreds of thousands of drug deaths, depressed wages and increased unemployment, drained public coffers and rampant crime "unfounded fears" is pretty cocky and a very know-nothing-millennial thing to do.

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