Scipio
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Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:23 pm

Five years ago, on February 22, 2014, Ukraine's Parliament deposed Viktor Yanukovych as President of Ukraine, with 328 votes (out of 450) in favor. Yanukovych had fled Kyiv the evening before, following a tumultuous week during which about 100 protesters were killed on the streets of central Kyiv. During the night of February 21-22, the security forces had withdrawn from the center of Kyiv, leaving the Maydan protesters in control of the Government district. Most Government Ministers followed Yanukovych in fleeing Kyiv, generally toward Russia.

It marked the completion of Ukraine's Revolution of Dignity, but also the start of Russia's aggression against Ukraine.

During the night of February 22-23, Putin decided to annex Crimea, and already on February 27, his "little green men" showed up in Simferopol and took control of the Crimean Parliament.

Five years on, Russia's aggression continues. Crimea remains occupied (and, as a result, isolated from the rest of the world), there is still daily fighting in Donbass, and Russia continues to squeeze Ukraine in various ways. Because of this, Russia remains under western sanctions.

Yesterday, Kurt Volker, the US Special Representative for Ukraine, unveiled a new website labeled "Countering Russia's Aggression in Ukraine". It gives an overview of the events of the past five years and of Russia's ongoing campaign against Ukraine.

https://t.co/bWE8WdFMw1

Meanwhile, Yanukovych lives in Russia, which has no intention of handing him over to Ukraine. Last month, a Ukrainian court convicted Yanukovych in absentia to 13 years in prison. In the US, Yanukovych's former American adviser Paul Manafort is also in prison, awaiting sentencing.

Ukraine was hit hard economically by the crisis, the loss of control over Donbass and Crimea, and the rupture in economic relations with Russia, but its economy has stabilized and is growing again. Ukraine is currently in the midst of an election campaign, with Presidential elections due to be held on March 31. Unlike in Russia, the outcome of these elections is hard to predict. Parliamentary elections are due to follow in October this year.


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steveinbc
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:44 pm

Sadly we are moving steadily back to a new Cold War stance by Russia, USA with the complication of a new major player, China. Russians love that Putin is restoring their former "USSR glory". He achieves this by bullying neighbors that can't fight back. Ukraine is the most well known but Georgia and other former soviet republics have also been on the receiving end. We can only hope that consistent pressure from nations that uphold lnternational Law can effect change. Ultimately bullies always need something...so those nations should ensure they don't get what they want until international law is respected.
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A3801000
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:49 pm

Putin invaded Ukraine to divert attention from his home grown problems. But these problems are just growing and he either cant or doesn't want to tackle them. So his strategy is to weaken the west and divert attention. His support for the italian Lega, the french LePen, the german afd, the british brexit, the usa Trump, his paid internet trolls etc. are just that. Now the question will be what comes quicker? Russia really going down the drain or the west really becoming weak?
He is selling as much oil and gas as he can but that also means he will run out at a certain point, many places Russia can't dig for oil without foreign help and technology and the sanctions prohibit that.
Doesn't look to good for him so I expect further action from him.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:51 am

A frozen conflict, sad for a beautiful country.
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jetmechanicdave
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:50 pm

Please stay on topic. Comments off topic will be deleted.
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atcsundevil
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:51 pm

Discuss the topic without personal attacks. The OP reminded users to adhere to the rules, so please heed that advice.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
alfa164
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:13 pm

A3801000 wrote:
Putin invaded Ukraine to divert attention from his home grown problems. But these problems are just growing and he either cant or doesn't want to tackle them. So his strategy is to weaken the west and divert attention. His support for the italian Lega, the french LePen, the german afd, the british brexit, the usa Trump, his paid internet trolls etc. are just that. .


:checkmark: Attempting to undermine Western institutions in hope of weakening confidence in them, then taking advantage of that loss-of-confidence to bolster his own ambitions, is the current modus operandi of Russia. As such, the worst thing that could happen to Putin would be a strong, economically successful Ukraine; that would make it an example of a nation whose independence led to progress for its citizens, and it would expand Putin's fears that other countries might recognize dependence on Russia is neither necessary nor desirable.

For those reasons, the outlook of decreased Russian meddling in the Ukrainian economy and political system - not to mention Russian-backed conflicts on the ground - are unlikely to decrease. Sadly, Ukraine will remain an under-recognized conflict zone for the foreseeable future. It is to the credit of the Ukrainian people that they have not allowed this to destroy their dreams of independence.

A3801000 wrote:
Russia really going down the drain or the west really becoming weak? He is selling as much oil and gas as he can but that also means he will run out at a certain point, many places Russia can't dig for oil without foreign help and technology and the sanctions prohibit that. Doesn't look to good for him so I expect further action from him.


:checkmark: :checkmark: When his standing at home starts to fall - and that is inevitable in any country, when economic conditions deteriorate - Putin always seems to plant an appeal to the Russian peoples' nationalism; his own version of a "Let's Make Russia Great Again" message. Of course, to back up that message, he sends troops and infiltrators to neighboring countries to instigate a clash, followed by a Russian intervention to "save" the Russian-speakers in that area from their "foreign oppressors".

It is a scene that was played-out in Georgia... in Moldova... in Ukraine... and one that is of concern to other former Eastern-bloc countries, particularly Poland and the Baltic countries. The further he falls in popularity, the more nervous these countries become - and rightly so.
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A3801000
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:42 am

"...45 percent of Russians thought the country was headed in the wrong direction, while 42 percent thought its course was correct, a sharp downturn from a year earlier."
“There is more displeasure expressed in the provinces, which were the foundation of Mr. Putin’s support,”
Support has waned for the long, costly interventions in Syria and Ukraine that once lifted Mr. Putin’s popularity.

“People are ready to be great, but they are not ready to pay for it from their own pockets,”

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/19/worl ... dfill.html

Putin might have to go bigger next time to achieve hiis desired results.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:22 am

A3801000 wrote:
Putin might have to go bigger next time to achieve hiis desired results.


That is the problem for Putin's strategy for boosting popularity, it needs to be bigger each and every time. First, there was the war in Chechenia, with FSB bombings as a pretext, then there was Moldavia, Georgia (2times) and Ukraine, then Syria, what is next? It is becoming more costly and there are more consequences.

Till Russia will pull its hands away from the eastern provinces in Ukraine, this conflict will not be resolved. Crimea will remain a frozen conflict, like the east bank of the Jordan, Eastern Jerusalem, Gaza strip, Western Sahara, Tibet etc. Occupied territory which nobody recognizes.

The best way forward for Ukraine is to work towards a stable state, combat corruption and work towards economic development. Although I think the politicians will take the easy way out and just point towards Russia for all their troubles, which is only partly true.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:45 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The best way forward for Ukraine is to work towards a stable state, combat corruption and work towards economic development. .


And what is the status on fulfilling that (good) advice during the last 5 years?

elections are up.
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:53 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The best way forward for Ukraine is to work towards a stable state, combat corruption and work towards economic development. .


And what is the status on fulfilling that (good) advice during the last 5 years?

elections are up.


Hey, what can I say, not everybody follows my advice, otherwise the world would be a far better place........... :D

But then again, Putin's Russia needs to pull away from eastern Ukraine as well for fulfilling that and Putin's Russia isn't willing to do this in the past five years.
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WIederling
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:04 pm

Dutchy wrote:
But then again, Putin's Russia needs to pull away from eastern Ukraine as well for fulfilling that and Putin's Russia isn't willing to do this in the past five years.


Completely irrelevant as long as the Ukraine wallops in its own fully self made corruption.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:09 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
But then again, Putin's Russia needs to pull away from eastern Ukraine as well for fulfilling that and Putin's Russia isn't willing to do this in the past five years.


Completely irrelevant as long as the Ukraine wallops in its own fully self made corruption.


Completely relevant, as long as they can shift blame to a foreign power, like Putin's government, it is easier to stay in control with corruption. Just like Putin needs a foreign enemy to stay in control of Russia, create an enemy from outside and the group will automatically come together, this goes for a small group as well for a country.
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anrec80
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:58 pm

Dutchy wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
But then again, Putin's Russia needs to pull away from eastern Ukraine as well for fulfilling that and Putin's Russia isn't willing to do this in the past five years.


Completely irrelevant as long as the Ukraine wallops in its own fully self made corruption.


Completely relevant, as long as they can shift blame to a foreign power, like Putin's government, it is easier to stay in control with corruption. Just like Putin needs a foreign enemy to stay in control of Russia, create an enemy from outside and the group will automatically come together, this goes for a small group as well for a country.


One doesn't prevent the other, Dutchy. Nobody prevents Kiev regime from giving an actual fight to corruption, improve state institutions, start battling poverty so that people stop leaving the country. Ukraine isn't under any sanctions, and there is nothing that prevents them from attracting global investors. This is the best and the only peaceful resolution to their problems - people of Donetsk need to see themselves that they are better off in Ukraine. They need to see that Ukraine has future, and that they are welcome to be a part of that future. Then these pro-Russian ideas there will simply die off. But that won't happen with this pro-nazi regime in Kiev. As of now - too few in Ukraine see any future for that statehood, and too many want to leave.
 
anrec80
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:06 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The best way forward for Ukraine is to work towards a stable state, combat corruption and work towards economic development. .


And what is the status on fulfilling that (good) advice during the last 5 years?

elections are up.


There is no status. Number of cities without centralized heat and hot water grows. The only thing Ukrainian presidential candidates offer is to "eventually get out of the war with victory", whatever each of them means. Nobody promises to put an end to the war soon - and this is #1 request from Ukrainian society. Nobody even says anything about low living standards and promises any improvement to those. The whole Presidential campaign revolves around Russia and Putin, as if any other problems don't exist. Conclusion - it's bad, and there isn't anyone to make anything any better.
 
anrec80
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The best way forward for Ukraine is to work towards a stable state, combat corruption and work towards economic development. Although I think the politicians will take the easy way out and just point towards Russia for all their troubles, which is only partly true.


Bingo. This is exactly what they were doing for the past 5 years, and nothing else. And aren't going to do anything other than that in the coming 5 years.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:20 pm

anrec80 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The best way forward for Ukraine is to work towards a stable state, combat corruption and work towards economic development. .


And what is the status on fulfilling that (good) advice during the last 5 years?

elections are up.


There is no status. Number of cities without centralized heat and hot water grows. The only thing Ukrainian presidential candidates offer is to "eventually get out of the war with victory", whatever each of them means. Nobody promises to put an end to the war soon - and this is #1 request from Ukrainian society. Nobody even says anything about low living standards and promises any improvement to those. The whole Presidential campaign revolves around Russia and Putin, as if any other problems don't exist. Conclusion - it's bad, and there isn't anyone to make anything any better.


Hence, if Putin pulls his hands of Ukraine, the Ukraine government can't use them as an excuse anymore and needs to improve Ukraine society for the benefit of Urkanians. You can't view the one thing without the other.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:33 pm

alfa164 wrote:
It is a scene that was played-out in Georgia... in Moldova... in Ukraine... and one that is of concern to other former Eastern-bloc countries, particularly Poland and the Baltic countries. The further he falls in popularity, the more nervous these countries become - and rightly so.


Well - each of those situations is unique. In Ukraine - Crimea is gone for good, there will be a time to forget it and move on.

In Moldova and Georgia before 2008 Russian peacekeepers are/were there based on UNSC resolution - totally legally. Georgia lost their territories due to their now kicked out president having tried to solve this problem forceful and military way, having killed some of those peacekeepers, and lost the military campaign. Nobody in Georgia (and in EU for that matter) argues with that. And in general, Georgian society in general is inclined to accept these things the way they are.

There is one overlooked news here - not too long ago Georgia and those republics signed a document establishing customs processes for goods and people. This agreement doesn't mention status of any participant (neither "independent state" or "occupied territory") - but this is really the first step of recognizing factual independence. Georgia essentially acknowledged that those territories are to be traded with as independent entities, not being part of Georgian jurisdiction. This is certainly a step in the right direction - you re-establish contacts with people in those territories, re-gaining a chance to convince them to give up their independence ideas and return to Georgian jurisdiction. Overall, a good move by their new president.

In Moldova - Moldovan elite (who's basically itching to sell their whole country to Romania and join it entirely) still doesn't bother with the need to re-establish contacts with their territory.
 
A3801000
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:44 pm

Nothing mentioned here n the last posts changes anything about the fact that Russia a) illegally occupies territory of a foreign nation and b) fights a active war against a foreign nation.
People die every day because of Russias aggression and Putin should be punished even harder. Good to see more sanctions are on the horizon and even inside Russia people start to wake up.
 
anrec80
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Hence, if Putin pulls his hands of Ukraine, the Ukraine government can't use them as an excuse anymore and needs to improve Ukraine society for the benefit of Urkanians. You can't view the one thing without the other.


In such situations the following applies - "if you don't have an enemy, you should think one up". It's about whether or not Ukrainian leadership actually wants to improve something or not. Your view on democratic society is oversimplified.

As you know by now, Ukraine generally is under control of a few business interests groups. Those business groups are investing in political party projects, buying them media support and providing campaign funding, and practically employing newly elected MPs (and ministers) once the dust settles after an election. The job of any MPs or government officials (whether elected or not) - is basically to implement agreements reached behind the scenes by those business groups, and certainly not to make any decisions. Speaking of society - who cares about it? The society just person by person, family by family moves to Poland and Russia mostly.

Currently, there is a "war party" in control - President owns a big chunk of military complex, other dudes in his inner circles are involved into heavy war crimes (and some even don't give a damn about him). Hence it's in their interests to have this slow conflict, and have an enemy. Hence they are supporting these myths about some "aggression". Even if the whole world agrees that there are no Russians anywhere in Eastern Ukraine, Kiev regime can make up some other enemy - it can be Poland, Turkey, Georgia, even Alpha Centaurus aliens will do for their purpose.
 
A3801000
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:47 pm

Aren't you tired having to write that nonsense day in and day out?

List of known dead russian soldiers in Ukraine: http://gruz200.net/

Famous documentary of journalists following the selfies of russian soldiers in Ukraine: https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/bjk ... to-ukraine

Secret funerals of russian soldiers who died in Ukraine: https://www.academia.edu/29727258/The_s ... in_Ukraine

Russian soldiers arrested in Ukraine: https://www.businessinsider.com/r-speci ... 015-5?IR=T

List of equipment used in Ukraine war, much has never been sold to any country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e ... in_Donbass

So much for your BS you just wrote.
 
alfa164
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:19 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Nobody promises to put an end to the war soon - and this is #1 request from Ukrainian society. Nobody even says anything about low living standards and promises any improvement to those. The whole Presidential campaign revolves around Russia and Putin, as if any other problems don't exist. Conclusion - it's bad, and there isn't anyone to make anything any better.


It is difficult to promise to end a war that was started, funded, and continues to be supported by Putin and his cronies. The "low standards of living" (which are still higher than those of most Russians these days, of course) could be improved greatly if the Ukrainian government weren't forced to fund a defense against an internal conflict fueled by an invading power.

A3801000 wrote:
Aren't you tired having to write that nonsense day in and day out?
List of known dead russian soldiers in Ukraine: http://gruz200.net/
Famous documentary of journalists following the selfies of russian soldiers in Ukraine: https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/bjk ... to-ukraine
Secret funerals of russian soldiers who died in Ukraine: https://www.academia.edu/29727258/The_s ... in_Ukraine
Russian soldiers arrested in Ukraine: https://www.businessinsider.com/r-speci ... 015-5?IR=T
List of equipment used in Ukraine war, much has never been sold to any country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e ... in_Donbass
So much for your BS you just wrote.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: I have been wondering... are the Russian trolls paid by the word, by the hour, or how? They clearly can't be paid by gauging the number of minds they change... because nobody with a modicum of good sense believes them.
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:44 pm

A3801000 wrote:
Aren't you tired having to write that nonsense day in and day out?

List of known dead russian soldiers in Ukraine: http://gruz200.net/

Famous documentary of journalists following the selfies of russian soldiers in Ukraine: https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/bjk ... to-ukraine

Secret funerals of russian soldiers who died in Ukraine: https://www.academia.edu/29727258/The_s ... in_Ukraine

Russian soldiers arrested in Ukraine: https://www.businessinsider.com/r-speci ... 015-5?IR=T

List of equipment used in Ukraine war, much has never been sold to any country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e ... in_Donbass

So much for your BS you just wrote.


And the same has been seen by the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OCSE). Seems odd to deny this, such a known fact.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Flaps
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:57 am

What is the current status of the Ukrainian sailors that were kidnapped/captured (depending on your point of view) by Russia recently? Haven't heard much about that incident on this side of the globe recently.
 
alfa164
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:27 am

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
But then again, Putin's Russia needs to pull away from eastern Ukraine as well for fulfilling that and Putin's Russia isn't willing to do this in the past five years.

Completely irrelevant as long as the Ukraine wallops in its own fully self made corruption.


Then why won't Putin and his cronies do it... and see if "Ukraine whallops(sic) in its own self made corruption"? Do you think they might be afraid Ukraine might be a success? What is Russia afraid of?

anrec80 wrote:
Currently, there is a "war party" in control - President owns a big chunk of military complex, other dudes in his inner circles are involved into heavy war crimes (and some even don't give a damn about him)..


Prove it. Ukraine's President was called the "Chocolate King" because of his ownership of a large candy company; he also owns a TV station in Ukraine. He may have investments in other areas (a car and bus factory apparently, and a shipyard), but your claims he "owns a big chunk of military complex" are made without any support or evidence. Indeed, they reflect the blatherings of the Russian disinformation campaign; is that where you got it?

Prove what you say... or just go away.
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anrec80
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:56 am

Flaps wrote:
What is the current status of the Ukrainian sailors that were kidnapped/captured (depending on your point of view) by Russia recently? Haven't heard much about that incident on this side of the globe recently.


They are in jail, in status of suspects of border violation. Russians will complete their criminal investigation, have their court verdict with prison terms for them, and then we can see what's next. Probably some time after that they will be either pardoned or exchanged and let go.
 
alfa164
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:15 am

anrec80 wrote:
Flaps wrote:
What is the current status of the Ukrainian sailors that were kidnapped/captured (depending on your point of view) by Russia recently? Haven't heard much about that incident on this side of the globe recently.

They are in jail, in status of suspects of border violation. Russians will complete their criminal investigation, have their court verdict with prison terms for them, and then we can see what's next. Probably some time after that they will be either pardoned or exchanged and let go.


"They are in jail, on the trumped-up charges Russians use to make a political statement. . Russians will use them for more propaganda purposes, put them through a show trial, and probably give them prison to make an example of them. Then we can see what's next. Probably some time after that they will be either pardoned or exchanged and let go as another political move."

There; I fixed it for you.
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I have decided to be cremated....
 
anrec80
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:20 am

alfa164 wrote:
"They are in jail, on the trumped-up charges Russians use to make a political statement. . Russians will use them for more propaganda purposes, put them through a show trial, and probably give them prison to make an example of them. Then we can see what's next. Probably some time after that they will be either pardoned or exchanged and let go as another political move."

There; I fixed it for you.


To make what statement and to whom? They don't talk about them at all. Speaking of actual terms - well, Russian court hasn't given them any yet. And probably not all of them will get a real term.

Some senior ones, who were issuing orders, knew they will be violating Russian border - those are looking at real ones. Junior ones (there are also a couple of cadets), who were just following orders and due to age (17-19) didn't really know that they are committing a crime - those are likely to be released after trial. Russian generals even asked their Ukrainian counterparts to not expel these kids from their military college while all this is pending. The investigation also needs to establish the chain of command in this incident. But there aren't any war crime charges or anything, just a border violation, nothing else.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:36 am

Dutchy wrote:
A frozen conflict, sad for a beautiful country.


I wasn't going to comment on this thread until I read this. Have you ever been to Ukraine? I have, 4 times, it was a dump then, it's still is a dump now, unlike the rest of Eastern Europe it barely progressed at all. There's not much that's beautiful about Ukraine except the women, there are so many beautiful women in this country it's crazy.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:44 am

Dutchy wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
Putin might have to go bigger next time to achieve hiis desired results.


That is the problem for Putin's strategy for boosting popularity, it needs to be bigger each and every time. First, there was the war in Chechenia, with FSB bombings as a pretext, then there was Moldavia, Georgia (2times) and Ukraine, then Syria, what is next? It is becoming more costly and there are more consequences.

Till Russia will pull its hands away from the eastern provinces in Ukraine, this conflict will not be resolved. Crimea will remain a frozen conflict, like the east bank of the Jordan, Eastern Jerusalem, Gaza strip, Western Sahara, Tibet etc. Occupied territory which nobody recognizes.

The best way forward for Ukraine is to work towards a stable state, combat corruption and work towards economic development. Although I think the politicians will take the easy way out and just point towards Russia for all their troubles, which is only partly true.


What exactly is the issue with Moldova? The Transnistria War was in 1990, long before Putin was anywhere near the reigns of power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria_War . You can't include Syria when everyone jumped in the defend their interests, and Chechnya was an internal conflict.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:45 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Have you ever been to Ukraine?


I have.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A3801000
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:52 am

Those sailors are illegally detained after Russia illegally occupied Crimea with russian soldiers without insignia. But the world told Russia already and hopefully more and tougher sanctions are to come. Putin has to be shown his limits or he will continue.
Yes, progress could and should be much faster, but at least it is progressing. And if someone has visited Ukraine 4 times and seen nothing beautiful but women, well.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:10 pm

alfa164 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
But then again, Putin's Russia needs to pull away from eastern Ukraine as well for fulfilling that and Putin's Russia isn't willing to do this in the past five years.

Completely irrelevant as long as the Ukraine wallops in its own fully self made corruption.


Then why won't Putin and his cronies do it... and see if "Ukraine whallops(sic) in its own self made corruption"? Do you think they might be afraid Ukraine might be a success? What is Russia afraid of?

anrec80 wrote:
Currently, there is a "war party" in control - President owns a big chunk of military complex, other dudes in his inner circles are involved into heavy war crimes (and some even don't give a damn about him)..


Prove it. Ukraine's President was called the "Chocolate King" because of his ownership of a large candy company; he also owns a TV station in Ukraine. He may have investments in other areas (a car and bus factory apparently, and a shipyard), but your claims he "owns a big chunk of military complex" are made without any support or evidence. Indeed, they reflect the blatherings of the Russian disinformation campaign; is that where you got it?

Prove what you say... or just go away.


He owns the Kuznya na Rybalskomu shipyard which is currently building Project 58155 and 58181 patrol boats for the Ukrainian navy, a shipyard which apart from a few small missile boats mainly built river sea barges and was a repair yard for river vessels. There's plenty of other yards in Ukraine which specialised in Naval vessels and were pretty good at building them, why give orders to a yard which hadn't built anything for a decade. This company are also making the new Triton armoured recon vehicle.
 
anrec80
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:35 am

Kiwirob wrote:
What exactly is the issue with Moldova? The Transnistria War was in 1990, long before Putin was anywhere near the reigns of power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria_War . You can't include Syria when everyone jumped in the defend their interests, and Chechnya was an internal conflict.


There isn't that much of an issue with Moldova really. Transnistria isn't being blocked by Moldovan forces or anything. There is trade, there is people movement, even Moldovan election are being held in Transnistria, and their residents vote on those. You can't call this a conflict even - just an undetermined status of a territory within the country. Nothing else. Moldova and Transnistria should figure it out among themselves - who has what guarantees, privileges, obligations, and how they are going to live within the same country. Any foreign help or advice isn't required at this point.
 
A3801000
Posts: 556
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:23 am

anrec80 wrote:
Any foreign help or advice isn't required at this point.


'Voters formed long lines outside polling stations in the villages of Dorotcaia and Coshnita, which are located at the de facto border of Moldova’s Russian-speaking breakaway region of Transdniester.

Some of them told RFE/RL that they were brought in on special buses from Transdniester, which is not holding elections, and that they were promised between 50 and 150 lei ($3 and $9) after voting.'

'Moscow announced just two days before the vote that it was opening an investigation into a suspected money-laundering scheme that allegedly involved a leader of the ruling Democratic Party.

The timing of that announcement was seen by some critics as an attempt by Moscow to influence the results of the election, as it allegedly attempted to do in the 2016 U.S. presidential election and in several European Union countries.'

https://www.rferl.org/a/moldova-electio ... 87009.html
 
Scorpius
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:02 pm

A3801000 wrote:
Aren't you tired having to write that nonsense day in and day out?

List of known dead russian soldiers in Ukraine: http://gruz200.net/


This "list" is BS.
The first three people:
1. Толстых Михаил Сергеевич (кличка «Гиви») - born in Ilovaysk, served in the Ukrainian army in 2000-2002
2. ПАВЛОВ АРСЕНИЙ СЕРГЕЕВИЧ - "МОТОРОЛА" - he was not a member of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation.
3. Урашев Александр - citizen of Kazakhstan. Нe was not a member of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation.

Other records, as far as I could see, have no proof. Already there were cases when as "proofs" cited references to nonexistent people, or to people who never were in Ukraine. For example, once tried as "Russian soldiers killed in Ukraine" the participants represent the football club: http://www.aif.ru/society/people/ya_ne_pogibshiy_desantnik_futbolisty_o_tom_kak_ih_horonili_smi_ukrainy
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:28 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
He owns the Kuznya na Rybalskomu shipyard which is currently building Project 58155 and 58181 patrol boats for the Ukrainian navy, a shipyard which apart from a few small missile boats mainly built river sea barges and was a repair yard for river vessels.


He doesn't "own" it; he has a minor investment in it. You probably think I "own" Embraer because I have bought stock in them over the years.


He had majority ownership when the contracts were given for the patrol boats I mentioned, I also know he sold down his control in October 2018. The important fact is a shipyard with an order book is more valuable than a shipyard with no orders.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:55 pm

I was pointing out that he did own a chunk of Ukraine’s military industrial complex. Make of it what you will.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:13 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
I was pointing out that he did own a chunk of Ukraine’s military industrial complex. Make of it what you will.


You were trying to make a point, what was your point?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
alfa164
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:11 am

Kiwirob wrote:
I was pointing out that he did own a chunk of Ukraine’s military industrial complex. Make of it what you will.


That's a lot different story now than the claim I was commenting on:
anrec80 wrote:
President owns a big chunk of military complex,.


And a lot different than what you originally claimed:
Kiwirob wrote:
He owns the Kuznya na Rybalskomu shipyard which is currently building Project 58155 and 58181 patrol boats for the Ukrainian navy, a shipyard which apart from a few small missile boats mainly built river sea barges and was a repair yard for river vessels.


Which was far different than your previous comment:
Kiwirob wrote:
I also know he sold down his control in October 2018.



And, again, what does it have to do with the topic of Russia's invasion, interference, and continuing attempts to destabilize Ukraine?
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:32 am

Because at the time my company sold products for the naval projects I mentioned, he own a majority stake in the shipyard. He also owned the stake when the projects we given to the yard, he’s just as big a crook as the guy he ousted. I doubt you’d find an honest politician in the country.
 
anrec80
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:47 am

alfa164 wrote:
And, again, what does it have to do with the topic of Russia's invasion, interference, and continuing attempts to destabilize Ukraine?


Everything. These crooks are supporting the myths pf “Russia’s invasion” to continue having nice fat margins in their businesses. Yes, businesses on blood of the very people that elected them. Previous crooks at least weren’t killing en masse.
 
A3801000
Posts: 556
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:34 am

Everybody knows that it is the Russian Forces in eastern Ukraine. You can give up.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:22 pm

anrec80 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
And, again, what does it have to do with the topic of Russia's invasion, interference, and continuing attempts to destabilize Ukraine?


Everything. These crooks are supporting the myths pf “Russia’s invasion” to continue having nice fat margins in their businesses. Yes, businesses on blood of the very people that elected them. Previous crooks at least weren’t killing en masse.


Agree on the crook thing. Ukraine is as corrupt as say Russia. But in order to stabilize the country and stop giving the politicians an excuse, Russia should stop supporting the East Ukranian rebels, with manpower and weapons and in any other way. But unfortunately we have seen that Putin's Russia benefits from stabilizing this country, so they won't stop.

And yes, I agree, stop using disinformation, it doesn't fit you, or actually, it does, but it doesn't seem to work, now does it? You haven't convinced anybody whom wasn't pro-Russia.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Dogman
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:06 pm

Ukraine is getting less corrupted, may be not as fast as I would like to, but the progress is noticeable. The most important thing is that the people are not afraid of their government, and the government knows that they do not have a stranglehold on power, like Putin does. So, they cannot abuse the system as freely as before, and the fact that we hear about more incidents of corruption is just a result of more openness.
 
alfa164
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:56 pm

Dogman wrote:
Ukraine is getting less corrupted, may be not as fast as I would like to, but the progress is noticeable. The most important thing is that the people are not afraid of their government, and the government knows that they do not have a stranglehold on power, like Putin does. So, they cannot abuse the system as freely as before, and the fact that we hear about more incidents of corruption is just a result of more openness.


:checkmark: This. It is evident that corruption has been a part of the psyche of all the Eastern European countries; it was the only way to "get ahead" during the days of the Soviet Union, and old habits are hard to break. Unfortunately for little liliPutin, a successful Ukraine - serving as an example of what can happen without the intrusion of Russian tentacles - is a nightmare he is trying desperately to prevent, lest other territories that remain within Russia's sphere realize the benefits of independent politics and thought.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:59 pm

Please try to stay on topic. Debate the topic, not the user, or the thread will be locked.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
Dogman
Posts: 53
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:22 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Dogman wrote:
Ukraine is getting less corrupted, may be not as fast as I would like to, but the progress is noticeable. The most important thing is that the people are not afraid of their government, and the government knows that they do not have a stranglehold on power, like Putin does. So, they cannot abuse the system as freely as before, and the fact that we hear about more incidents of corruption is just a result of more openness.


:checkmark: This. It is evident that corruption has been a part of the psyche of all the Eastern European countries; it was the only way to "get ahead" during the days of the Soviet Union, and old habits are hard to break.

It is a part of the psyche of any country where people do not control the government. It's a way of life.The government is being viewed as something that exists outside of the life of the regular people, like a force of nature, that you need to adapt to, outsmart, or just ignore. So, the rules and laws are not being takes seriously by the people, and they do not expect the government to follow the law. But, as I said, it is changing. The most important thing, in my opinion, is that in Ukraine nobody has absolute power, so nobody can do whatever he wants. That's not enough, but it is absolutely necessary.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:23 pm

Dogman wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Dogman wrote:
Ukraine is getting less corrupted, may be not as fast as I would like to, but the progress is noticeable. The most important thing is that the people are not afraid of their government, and the government knows that they do not have a stranglehold on power, like Putin does. So, they cannot abuse the system as freely as before, and the fact that we hear about more incidents of corruption is just a result of more openness.


:checkmark: This. It is evident that corruption has been a part of the psyche of all the Eastern European countries; it was the only way to "get ahead" during the days of the Soviet Union, and old habits are hard to break.

It is a part of the psyche of any country where people do not control the government. It's a way of life.The government is being viewed as something that exists outside of the life of the regular people, like a force of nature, that you need to adapt to, outsmart, or just ignore. So, the rules and laws are not being takes seriously by the people, and they do not expect the government to follow the law. But, as I said, it is changing. The most important thing, in my opinion, is that in Ukraine nobody has absolute power, so nobody can do whatever he wants. That's not enough, but it is absolutely necessary.


I didn't know that there was progress being made on the corruption battlefront. That is good news. All changes are hard and not as fast as we would like to happen, but if steps are taken in the right direction, then great! Then the Ukraine crisis has some good outcome.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10187
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Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:14 am

A3801000 wrote:
Aren't you tired having to write that nonsense day in and day out?

List of known dead russian soldiers in Ukraine: http://gruz200.net/

Famous documentary of journalists following the selfies of russian soldiers in Ukraine: https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/bjk ... to-ukraine

Secret funerals of russian soldiers who died in Ukraine: https://www.academia.edu/29727258/The_s ... in_Ukraine

Russian soldiers arrested in Ukraine: https://www.businessinsider.com/r-speci ... 015-5?IR=T

List of equipment used in Ukraine war, much has never been sold to any country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e ... in_Donbass

So much for your BS you just wrote.


Add to that the countless pictures of burned out tanks only the Russian Army ever had.

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Thomas
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