Dogman
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:28 pm

Tugger wrote:
Interesting... are there any bloggers/investigative journalists like this in Russia? We have a huge number of them in the USA and obviously Ukraine has at least one (who is on the run perhaps but still posting!). But I am not seeing Russian journalists like this, posting stories looking into issues within Russia. We all know every country has issues that need to be addressed, looked into by citizens and independent parties. Why doesn't Russia seem to have any within its borders? :scratchchin:

Tugg


Just like during the USSR times. Even the natural disasters were not allowed to be reported. Nothing to disturb the bliss that the nation enjoys under the guidance of the Great Leader.
 
alfa164
Posts: 2912
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:43 pm

Tugger wrote:
tu204 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/user/SuperSharij
Here you go. Knock yourself out.

Interesting... are there any bloggers/investigative journalists like this in Russia? We have a huge number of them in the USA and obviously Ukraine has at least one (who is on the run perhaps but still posting!). But I am not seeing Russian journalists like this, posting stories looking into issues within Russia. We all know every country has issues that need to be addressed, looked into by citizens and independent parties. Why doesn't Russia seem to have any within its borders? :scratchchin: Tugg


Russia has had a few... but they all seem to die under mysterious circumstances....

:roll:

But the trolls keep living... and continue writing their pithy observations... even here on A.net...

;)
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
A3801000
Posts: 557
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:46 pm

Alexei Navalny ;)

All others have been killed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_j ... _in_Russia
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:25 pm

A3801000 wrote:
Keep dreaming about the great and mighty Russia while at the same time whining about the bad, bad west. Always the same broken record.


:checkmark: yup, Putin's regime is using the feeling within Russia, that Russia has a right of the status of a by-gone era. Truth is of course that Russia isn't that important anymore, in due time even Russians will accept that.

A3801000 wrote:
Now you see Ukraine moving in the right direction and of course you can't let that happen, so you come up with your Soros/Nazi/Fascist propaganda.


:checkmark: and in the end, the only thing that has been accomplished we think less of Russia.....(not Russians, just the Putin regime)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A3801000
Posts: 557
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:32 pm

Dutchy wrote:
we think less of Russia.....(not Russians, just the Putin regime)


:checkmark:
 
tu204
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:23 pm

Tugger wrote:
tu204 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/user/SuperSharij

Here you go. Knock yourself out.

Interesting... are there any bloggers/investigative journalists like this in Russia? We have a huge number of them in the USA and obviously Ukraine has at least one (who is on the run perhaps but still posting!). But I am not seeing Russian journalists like this, posting stories looking into issues within Russia. We all know every country has issues that need to be addressed, looked into by citizens and independent parties. Why doesn't Russia seem to have any within its borders? :scratchchin:

Tugg


Yup. We do have them as well.

I like this guy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtO0Tz ... nTsQeywSSw
Kinda a blogger/comedy show...first part of each show is about absurd bullshit inside Russia and thr second half is about absurd bullshit from abroad.

That's the guy that I follow mostly. As to why he's not as popular as Sharij? Probably because shit ain't as bad here as it is in Ukraine maybe...
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tu204
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:26 pm

A3801000 wrote:
Yawn, same old, same old

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/04/ ... say-a65049

Keep dreaming about the great and mighty Russia while at the same time whining about the bad, bad west. Always the same broken record.
Now you see Ukraine moving in the right direction and of course you can't let that happen, so you come up with your Soros/Nazi/Fascist propaganda. That might work with your babushkas back home, the same ones who believe your nonsense why russians in the west don't go back to the fatherland where milk and honey bla bla bla.
I wonder why they all drink themselves to death if it is such a fantastic place.


Yeah, you see that when I see a foreigner saying that Ukraine is moving in the "right direction" is the same as if you, as a German would view someone from Sudan or Chad saying how Germans look at them with envy since they are making so much progress when you guys are falling backwards.

Makes you want to think whether I should pity you or just write it off as someone who is up their neck in propaganda or worse ..
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tu204
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:39 pm

A3801000 wrote:
Alexei Navalny ;)



Another reason why I come to the conclusion that I think you've got no touch with reality..

Navalny? Really? Albeit he has some points that are worthy of discussion, he is a populist clown that appeals to school kids. Twisting facts and staging unauthorized meetings (when he has an authorized one the next street down) just to get himself arrested by the big bad KGB/NKVD/Stalin personally so he can get a few good camera shots of his ass getting dragged off for a couple hours in the Gulag/Concentration Camp/Dungeon turns off anyone with half a brain...
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
anrec80
Posts: 1996
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:07 am

 
A3801000
Posts: 557
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:07 am

tu204 wrote:

Yeah, you see that when I see a foreigner saying that Ukraine is moving in the "right direction"
facts don't lie
tu204 wrote:
you, as a German
What exactly do you know about me, my experiences, my knowledge?

tu204 wrote:
Makes you want to think whether I should pity you or just write it off
I could not care less

Instead of talking facts you are now trying to discredit me (without knowing anything at all) and anyone who says something that goes against your ideology. Sounds very familiar to be honest. ;)
 
alfa164
Posts: 2912
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:44 pm

A3801000 wrote:
Instead of talking facts you are now trying to discredit me (without knowing anything at all) and anyone who says something that goes against your ideology. Sounds very familiar to be honest. ;)


"Instead of talking facts you are now trying to discredit me (without knowing anything at all) and anyone who says something that goes against your script. Sounds very familiar to be honest."

I am pretty sure that is what you meant to say...and that is what I would tell him/her/it...

;)
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
A3801000
Posts: 557
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:37 pm

alfa164 wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
Instead of talking facts you are now trying to discredit me (without knowing anything at all) and anyone who says something that goes against your ideology. Sounds very familiar to be honest. ;)


"Instead of talking facts you are now trying to discredit me (without knowing anything at all) and anyone who says something that goes against your script. Sounds very familiar to be honest."

I am pretty sure that is what you meant to say...and that is what I would tell him/her/it...

;)


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:26 am

What exactly will it take to resolve the situation with Crimea belonging to Russia or Ukraine.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1996
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:54 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
What exactly will it take to resolve the situation with Crimea belonging to Russia or Ukraine.


Crimea is Russian, and they deem this matter resolved. Nobody will ever give it back. It's a done deal, whoever thinks whatever.
 
alfa164
Posts: 2912
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:01 am

anrec80 wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
What exactly will it take to resolve the situation with Crimea belonging to Russia or Ukraine.


Crimea is Russian, and they deem this matter resolved. Nobody will ever give it back. It's a done deal, whoever thinks whatever.


That is the Russian line; the civilized world thinks otherwise.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
anrec80
Posts: 1996
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:36 am

alfa164 wrote:
That is the Russian line; the civilized world thinks otherwise.


The "civilized world" can think anything it wants - it doesn't matter. What matters is the opinion of Crimean residents. And they've made their choice clearly.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:31 am

anrec80 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
That is the Russian line; the civilized world thinks otherwise.


The "civilized world" can think anything it wants - it doesn't matter. What matters is the opinion of Crimean residents. And they've made their choice clearly.


spreading falsehoods again I see. Don't side a gunpoint referendum as fair and free referendum. Nobody recognizes that, except for a few major players on earth like Abkhazia.

This is getting very old, just following the Putin regime line.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:36 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
What exactly will it take to resolve the situation with Crimea belonging to Russia or Ukraine.


Everybody is free to go back to Crimea, Crimea control handed back to Ukraine and after a few years of stabilization and after that a free and open referendum, without meddling from the Putin's regime. Then everyone will accept the referendum and act accordingly.

will never happen, Putin can't afford it politically within Russia.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:35 pm

Dutchy wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
What exactly will it take to resolve the situation with Crimea belonging to Russia or Ukraine.


Everybody is free to go back to Crimea, Crimea control handed back to Ukraine and after a few years of stabilization and after that a free and open referendum, without meddling from the Putin's regime. Then everyone will accept the referendum and act accordingly.

will never happen, Putin can't afford it politically within Russia.


Yeah that's not happening. In particular because due to the rampant nationalists running around in Ukraine things in Crimea would get ugly for the locals. Just look at the mess they are creating in their back yard. Take a look at how they are attacking supporters of Anatoliy Sharij, who's party is running for parliament, accusing them of being pro-Russian (totally false).

I could see something work if Crimea would be put under un-biased international control (so no E.U. or U.S, unless jointly operated with Russia) for a few years and then shoot another referendum. But that's unlikely.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
anrec80
Posts: 1996
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:16 am

Dutchy wrote:
Don't side a gunpoint referendum as fair and free referendum.


Good enough “gunpointing” 2.5M people. There were plenty of Western journalists and MPs, and nobody reported any “gunpointing” at the time. These tales appeared later. This is what gets old.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1996
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:21 am

Dutchy wrote:
Everybody is free to go back to Crimea,


There are plenty of Ukrainians there now, they even work there on the bridge construction. Nobody prevents them from going there, or moving there even.

Dutchy wrote:
Crimea control handed back to Ukraine and after a few years of stabilization and after that a free and open referendum


How about asking people if they want back to Ukraine? Those are 2.5 million real people, and you don’t just juggle territories. And who in their sane mind will want to Ukraine. If you hold a free and fair referendum in Ukraine to join Russia, free from Western control and Western grant funded media, most Ukrainians will want to join Russia. But Ukraine is not needed there simply.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:56 am

tu204 wrote:
Yeah that's not happening. In particular because due to the rampant nationalists running around in Ukraine things in Crimea would get ugly for the locals. Just look at the mess they are creating in their back yard. Take a look at how they are attacking supporters of Anatoliy Sharij, who's party is running for parliament, accusing them of being pro-Russian (totally false).

I could see something work if Crimea would be put under un-biased international control (so no E.U. or U.S, unless jointly operated with Russia) for a few years and then shoot another referendum. But that's unlikely.


I agree that's not happening with the current Putin regime, he can't lose face like that. So it will remain a frozen conflict.

If you want unbiased, leave Russia out, they have a vested interest in this, the EU and America much less. Anyhow, if Russia stays away you don't need a large military presence and can put it under UN control. But I concur that it won't happen.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
alfa164
Posts: 2912
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:12 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Don't side a gunpoint referendum as fair and free referendum.

Good enough “gunpointing” 2.5M people. There were plenty of Western journalists and MPs, and nobody reported any “gunpointing” at the time. These tales appeared later. This is what gets old.


That is absolutely not true; it is just Russian propaganda... again...

"There is a puppet government in Crimea that seized power at the point of a gun and is run by a party that won 4% of the vote at the last election. The streets are filled with menacing militia given arms but no training, supported by a variety of lethal-looking paramilitary groups and thousands of Russian soldiers who can be seen even on rooftops. Meanwhile events are dictated quite blatantly by Moscow; visitors to the Crimean prime minister's office say even his private secretary and press aide are from Russia, along with other advisers telling him what to do."

"It is worth noting also that the official observers for this sham display of democracy were a motley collection of Putin apologists and – ironically given all the fury over "fascists" in Kiev – members of far-right parties."


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... cy-ukraine
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
alfa164
Posts: 2912
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:05 pm

anrec80 wrote:
If you hold a free and fair referendum in Ukraine to join Russia, free from Western control and Western grant funded media, most Ukrainians will want to join Russia. But Ukraine is not needed there simply.


That, too, is another lie from the Russian propaganda machine. The Ukrainians totally turned their backs on pro-Russian candidates in the last election. As one observer noted:

“Putin had an extremely stupid plan in 2014 to create turmoil in southeast Ukraine,” said Kostiantyn Fedorenko, a political analyst with the Institute for Euro-Atlantic Cooperation, a think thank in Kiev. “Ukrainians changed their mentality significantly after it became clear that Russia could use military power against Ukraine.”


https://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-ukr ... story.html
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
tu204
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Yeah that's not happening. In particular because due to the rampant nationalists running around in Ukraine things in Crimea would get ugly for the locals. Just look at the mess they are creating in their back yard. Take a look at how they are attacking supporters of Anatoliy Sharij, who's party is running for parliament, accusing them of being pro-Russian (totally false).

I could see something work if Crimea would be put under un-biased international control (so no E.U. or U.S, unless jointly operated with Russia) for a few years and then shoot another referendum. But that's unlikely.


I agree that's not happening with the current Putin regime, he can't lose face like that. So it will remain a frozen conflict.

If you want unbiased, leave Russia out, they have a vested interest in this, the EU and America much less. Anyhow, if Russia stays away you don't need a large military presence and can put it under UN control. But I concur that it won't happen.


Crimea doesn't qualify as a "Frozen Conflict", it's a done deal.

Eastern Ukraine on the other hand...well, from what I see now the new president is not changing much for the time being. He hasn't even changed mowt of the guys at the helm, hopefully for the time being untill after the parliamentary elections. Hopefully after that and winning a majority there he will have the courage to stand up againt the nationalists, start a dialogue with the guys in the East, he has mentioned a desire for a dialogue to stqrt solving the problem.
If not, the East will remain a frozen conflict till Ukraine falls apart or someone with the courage for dialogue gets into the president's office.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:26 pm

tu204 wrote:
Crimea doesn't qualify as a "Frozen Conflict", it's a done deal.

Eastern Ukraine on the other hand...well, from what I see now the new president is not changing much for the time being. He hasn't even changed mowt of the guys at the helm, hopefully for the time being untill after the parliamentary elections. Hopefully after that and winning a majority there he will have the courage to stand up againt the nationalists, start a dialogue with the guys in the East, he has mentioned a desire for a dialogue to stqrt solving the problem.
If not, the East will remain a frozen conflict till Ukraine falls apart or someone with the courage for dialogue gets into the president's office.


Crimea is a frozen conflict because it will never be sanctioned by the rest of the world. Same as the west bank/Gaza Strip or Western Sahara or Tibet.

Eastern Ukraine will be solved when the Putin regime stops meddling in Eastern Ukraine. When Putin's Russia stops supporting those guys, they need to go back to the negotiation table. Now they have all the power so they have everything to lose, nothing to gain. Your Putin blocks a solution, nobody else.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Crimea doesn't qualify as a "Frozen Conflict", it's a done deal.

Eastern Ukraine on the other hand...well, from what I see now the new president is not changing much for the time being. He hasn't even changed mowt of the guys at the helm, hopefully for the time being untill after the parliamentary elections. Hopefully after that and winning a majority there he will have the courage to stand up againt the nationalists, start a dialogue with the guys in the East, he has mentioned a desire for a dialogue to stqrt solving the problem.
If not, the East will remain a frozen conflict till Ukraine falls apart or someone with the courage for dialogue gets into the president's office.


Crimea is a frozen conflict because it will never be sanctioned by the rest of the world. Same as the west bank/Gaza Strip or Western Sahara or Tibet.

Eastern Ukraine will be solved when the Putin regime stops meddling in Eastern Ukraine. When Putin's Russia stops supporting those guys, they need to go back to the negotiation table. Now they have all the power so they have everything to lose, nothing to gain. Your Putin blocks a solution, nobody else.


1) Nope, not frozen conflict. They are a part of the Russian Federation and enjoy all the privilages and benefits of being a part. No less than someone in Moscow, Tatarstan or Vladivostok. Nothing similar to "Gaza strip". Nice try though.

2) Well I hope there are politicians in Ukraine that are smarter or more open minded than you and view the situation in Donbass that is partially as a result of the actions of Kiev, that people there are "seperatists" for a reason, that they still are (formally) citizens of the same country and that the only way to solve this conflict is dialogue and adressing their concerns.
If not there is no chance in hell that they will be part of the same country until:
a) Somehow Kiev manages to throw forces in there and do a mini-genocide
b) Ukraine falls apart.

Option "b" is looking more likely after Ukraine's previous "outing" in the East. ;)

People like you with views like this in the west are part of the ongoing problem in Ukraine. I understand that you don't really have a voice in the politics of your regime, but if individuals that do put their foot down and forced Ukraine to go back to the negotiating table with the seperatists, forced them to move in the direction discussed in the Minsk Accords, the situation could be resolved in months. For God's sake, don't give them any more handouts untill they do! I understand you guys had no clue what you got yourselves into back in 2014 supporting these clowns and can't lose face now, but Ukraine is and has been under patrial foreign control for the last 5 years. You gotta say "bad dog" once in a while so they don't forget who's feeding them.

I will fathom a guess that within the next 4-5 years Russia and the west will sit down, agree on some mutually acceptable solution and afterwards invite Ukraine and the seperatists to the table, say "Enough, you two sign here and behave!". Like what happened with Moldova recently.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:39 am

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Crimea doesn't qualify as a "Frozen Conflict", it's a done deal.

Eastern Ukraine on the other hand...well, from what I see now the new president is not changing much for the time being. He hasn't even changed mowt of the guys at the helm, hopefully for the time being untill after the parliamentary elections. Hopefully after that and winning a majority there he will have the courage to stand up againt the nationalists, start a dialogue with the guys in the East, he has mentioned a desire for a dialogue to stqrt solving the problem.
If not, the East will remain a frozen conflict till Ukraine falls apart or someone with the courage for dialogue gets into the president's office.


Crimea is a frozen conflict because it will never be sanctioned by the rest of the world. Same as the west bank/Gaza Strip or Western Sahara or Tibet.

Eastern Ukraine will be solved when the Putin regime stops meddling in Eastern Ukraine. When Putin's Russia stops supporting those guys, they need to go back to the negotiation table. Now they have all the power so they have everything to lose, nothing to gain. Your Putin blocks a solution, nobody else.


1) Nope, not frozen conflict. They are a part of the Russian Federation and enjoy all the privilages and benefits of being a part. No less than someone in Moscow, Tatarstan or Vladivostok. Nothing similar to "Gaza strip". Nice try though.

2) Well I hope there are politicians in Ukraine that are smarter or more open minded than you and view the situation in Donbass that is partially as a result of the actions of Kiev, that people there are "seperatists" for a reason, that they still are (formally) citizens of the same country and that the only way to solve this conflict is dialogue and adressing their concerns.
If not there is no chance in hell that they will be part of the same country until:
a) Somehow Kiev manages to throw forces in there and do a mini-genocide
b) Ukraine falls apart.

Option "b" is looking more likely after Ukraine's previous "outing" in the East. ;)

People like you with views like this in the west are part of the ongoing problem in Ukraine. I understand that you don't really have a voice in the politics of your regime, but if individuals that do put their foot down and forced Ukraine to go back to the negotiating table with the seperatists, forced them to move in the direction discussed in the Minsk Accords, the situation could be resolved in months. For God's sake, don't give them any more handouts untill they do! I understand you guys had no clue what you got yourselves into back in 2014 supporting these clowns and can't lose face now, but Ukraine is and has been under patrial foreign control for the last 5 years. You gotta say "bad dog" once in a while so they don't forget who's feeding them.

I will fathom a guess that within the next 4-5 years Russia and the west will sit down, agree on some mutually acceptable solution and afterwards invite Ukraine and the seperatists to the table, say "Enough, you two sign here and behave!". Like what happened with Moldova recently.


I do not have any influence on our Government, that is correct, as you have no influence on your Putin regime :roll: Actually I do have more influence than you because of the democratic nature of my Government, instead of autocratic of the Putin regime.

> International status of Crimea is just like those area's, interesting you pick out Gaza Strip. You know exactly what I mean, Russia is the aggressor and everyone see it.
> The Putin regimen should stop supporting the separatist, that is key to solve it.

Sate aggression should never be awarded. I see you put the blame 100% outside of the Putin regime. No surprise there.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:04 pm

Dutchy wrote:
> The Putin regimen should stop supporting the separatist, that is key to solve it.

Sate aggression should never be awarded. I see you put the blame 100% outside of the Putin regime. No surprise there.


There are two keys to resolving the problem. One is Russia forces the seperatists to sit down with Kiev and the second is that western regimes force Kiev to sit down with the seperatists.

The two go hand in hand. One will not work without the other. The sooner everyone gets that, the sooner the conflic is resolved.

Your approach is why the conflict hasn't and will not move from a deadlock for years to come.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Dogman
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:43 pm

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
> The Putin regimen should stop supporting the separatist, that is key to solve it.

Sate aggression should never be awarded. I see you put the blame 100% outside of the Putin regime. No surprise there.


There are two keys to resolving the problem. One is Russia forces the seperatists to sit down with Kiev and the second is that western regimes force Kiev to sit down with the seperatists.

The two go hand in hand. One will not work without the other. The sooner everyone gets that, the sooner the conflic is resolved.

Your approach is why the conflict hasn't and will not move from a deadlock for years to come.


Yeah, just pile up those lies, may be something will stick. Why anybody would talk to the separatists? They are 100% controlled by Russia, and don't make any decisions. That was Putin's position from the very beginning: Ukraine needs to talk to "people of Donbass". If Ukraine does that, it would make it look like it is a Ukrainian internal conflict and not a Russian aggression. Most people could see through Russian lies, though and you are not fooling anyone here.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:51 pm

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
> The Putin regimen should stop supporting the separatist, that is key to solve it.

Sate aggression should never be awarded. I see you put the blame 100% outside of the Putin regime. No surprise there.


There are two keys to resolving the problem. One is Russia forces the seperatists to sit down with Kiev and the second is that western regimes force Kiev to sit down with the seperatists.

The two go hand in hand. One will not work without the other. The sooner everyone gets that, the sooner the conflic is resolved.

Your approach is why the conflict hasn't and will not move from a deadlock for years to come.


I think you will find if your Putin's Russia stops supporting these separatists, all other pieces on the chessboard will move too. Have the UN come in and control the borders between Russia and Ukraine and control the region, was proposed and rejected by your Putin regime because it wanted a UN-force on the separatist - Ukraine border. Or have the EU help with improving human rights, money granted is in part for exactly that.

I have no doubt that part of the uprise is because of the Ukraine government, sure, but the key lies in Moscow, not Kyiv. Only after peace has been restored, we can look at all the other aspects.
Truth is that Putin will not want to let go and he is on record claiming Ukraine should be part of Russia. And Russia is occupying a piece of Ukraine, so how can you claim that the key is in Kyiv is beyond me.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
Posts: 1996
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:47 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I think you will find if your Putin's Russia stops supporting these separatists, all other pieces on the chessboard will move too.


The way for the pieces to start moving is in Kiev’s hands - it needs to finally start talking to those people. Re-establish economic ties, enter negotiations with them and their leadership. But Kiev doesn’t want to do that, EU can’t influence Kiev regime (just as it can’t influence anything else outside of its borders really), and the USA is playing its own game.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1996
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:49 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Truth is that Putin will not want to let go and he is on record claiming Ukraine should be part of Russia. And Russia is occupying a piece of Ukraine, so how can you claim that the key is in Kyiv is beyond me.


It’s not that hard really - Kiev needs to enter talks with those people and their leadership, and convince them to not accept any aid or support from anywhere else. But Kiev doesn’t need that - Kiev regime just needs this war in progress on which the regime leaders can make hundreds poof millions.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:59 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Truth is that Putin will not want to let go and he is on record claiming Ukraine should be part of Russia. And Russia is occupying a piece of Ukraine, so how can you claim that the key is in Kyiv is beyond me.


It’s not that hard really - Kiev needs to enter talks with those people and their leadership, and convince them to not accept any aid or support from anywhere else. But Kiev doesn’t need that - Kiev regime just needs this war in progress on which the regime leaders can make hundreds poof millions.


Wow, isn't your head done spinning, 180degrees of the truth, black is white, white is black? How about Russia stop giving them aid and support, it is not from anywhere, it is from Russia. But at least you agree to the fact that they are getting aid and support from Russia, just like the OSCE already confirmed and the aid is, among other things, military aid, as we have seen with the Buk, five years ago, today.

Nobody will forget the MH17 murders that Russia did, nobody.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
Posts: 1996
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:59 pm

Dogman wrote:
Yeah, just pile up those lies, may be something will stick. Why anybody would talk to the separatists?


Just because you consider them your own citizens, and it’s the obligation of any government to support talk with their own citizens. If you just call them separatists and don’t talk to them - well, they will become another nation, recognized or not.

Dogman wrote:
They are 100% controlled by Russia, and don't make any decisions.


There is nothing called 100% controlled. During these 5 years, these people were holding their own elections, started growing their own elite, political system, statehood, etc. You may argue whether or not those elections are legitimate from your point of view, but they are legitimate from the point of view of those people - and that’s what matters.

Dogman wrote:
That was Putin's position from the very beginning: Ukraine needs to talk to "people of Donbass". If Ukraine does that, it would make it look like it is a Ukrainian internal conflict and not a Russian aggression. Most people could see through Russian lies, though and you are not fooling anyone here.


First, as I said - those people are forming their own de-facto statehood, and yes, that implies their leaders. So what’s the priority here - how things look, or restoring actual territorial integrity? Keep in mind - while as people in the East are building out their own statehood, re-unification is getting harder and harder to achieve each day. You can keep convincing yourself for a little longer that Ukraine is one unitary country, but the day comes when it’s no longer possible to do so.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1996
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Wow, isn't your head done spinning, 180degrees of the truth, black is white, white is black? How about Russia stop giving them aid and support, it is not from anywhere, it is from Russia. But at least you agree to the fact that they are getting aid and support from Russia, just like the OSCE already confirmed and the aid is, among other things, military aid, as we have seen with the Buk, five years ago, today.


Have I ever said there is no Russian support? Russia opened their markets for these people to trade, and makes it easier to obtain citizenship and jobs. Russian banks work with banks in those republics. There is nothing wrong with any of this. This is basic human right that you for some reason keep denying - people have and should have right to trade at least at some level beyond necessities.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:13 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Wow, isn't your head done spinning, 180degrees of the truth, black is white, white is black? How about Russia stop giving them aid and support, it is not from anywhere, it is from Russia. But at least you agree to the fact that they are getting aid and support from Russia, just like the OSCE already confirmed and the aid is, among other things, military aid, as we have seen with the Buk, five years ago, today.


Have I ever said there is no Russian support? Russia opened their markets for these people to trade, and makes it easier to obtain citizenship and jobs. Russian banks work with banks in those republics. There is nothing wrong with any of this. This is basic human right that you for some reason keep denying - people have and should have right to trade at least at some level beyond necessities.



We are talking about guns, tanks, buk-missiles which shot down the MH17. Not about potatoes. I call upon your Putin regime to stop supporting them in order to have talks between the government and these citizens and normalize the situation instead of defacto Russian territory.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
Posts: 1996
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
We are talking about guns, tanks, buk-missiles which shot down the MH17. Not about potatoes. I call upon your Putin regime to stop supporting them in order to have talks between the government and these citizens and normalize the situation instead of defacto Russian territory.


Nobody never talked about any sorts of guns, tanks or BUKs. BUKs - they never had any, and guns and tanks were abundant (and on fire sale) from Ukrainians (and were there as of early 2014). This is where the questions go.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1996
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I call upon your Putin regime to stop supporting them in order to have talks between the government and these citizens and normalize the situation instead of defacto Russian territory.


There are politicians in Ukraine that are in contact with their leadership. And Kiev regime should establish this contact too - with the citizens and their leadership. This is where your call should go - upon Kiev regime. Russia or anyone else doesn’t prevent them from doing so.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:23 pm

anrec80 wrote:
BUKs - they never had any


Interesting, so you say it were regular Russian soldiers that shot down the MH17. It has been confirmed the BUK was from the 53rd brigade of the Russian military, what is not known whom actually manned it, but you say it were the Russians itself. Ok, very possible, but I wouldn't go so far, since the investigators don't know yet, or haven't made it public yet.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:26 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I call upon your Putin regime to stop supporting them in order to have talks between the government and these citizens and normalize the situation instead of defacto Russian territory.


There are politicians in Ukraine that are in contact with their leadership. And Kiev regime should establish this contact too - with the citizens and their leadership. This is where your call should go - upon Kiev regime. Russia or anyone else doesn’t prevent them from doing so.



Russia might or might not prevent them in doing so, I don't know what Putin is telling them, you apparently do...

Anyhow, why should they? They can lead their fake country and have power because they are Moscow protected. Are you calling up to your Putin regime to stop supporting the regime?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
Posts: 1996
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:30 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Interesting, so you say it were regular Russian soldiers that shot down the MH17. It has been confirmed the BUK was from the 53rd brigade of the Russian military, what is not known whom actually manned it, but you say it were the Russians itself. Ok, very possible, but I wouldn't go so far, since the investigators don't know yet, or haven't made it public yet.


There wasn’t the “trial show” even yet - to say that something has been confirmed. Yes, I am saying rebels never had any BUKs. The only place in the region that could have them and that modification (based on missile numbers) is Ukraine, nobody else. But since there are too many in Ukraine who want to avoid responsibility, and also JIT is keep to appoint Russia or Russians - you may succeed in fabricating a case (e.g. using “social media” and “phone videos”), but those truly responsible aren’t likely to be even named.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1996
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:37 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Russia might or might not prevent them in doing so, I don't know what Putin is telling them, you apparently do...


Russia doesn’t prevent any contacts with Ukrainian politicians - and there are some who actually do go there. They even have successes - in prisoners exchanges for examples. So Donetsk leadership certainly can be talked to and dealt with. All that’s needed is to want to do so.

Dutchy wrote:
Anyhow, why should they? They can lead their fake country and have power because they are Moscow protected. Are you calling up to your Putin regime to stop supporting the regime?


Then how did you want - to just resolve a civil conflict without talking to anybody? That doesn’t happen simply. After 5 years and couple of election rounds - local residents have their legitimate leaders who were chosen to represent them. Hence they need to be talked to, like it or not.

And yes, they are leading the country, and it’s becoming less and less fake.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:38 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Interesting, so you say it were regular Russian soldiers that shot down the MH17. It has been confirmed the BUK was from the 53rd brigade of the Russian military, what is not known whom actually manned it, but you say it were the Russians itself. Ok, very possible, but I wouldn't go so far, since the investigators don't know yet, or haven't made it public yet.


There wasn’t the “trial show” even yet - to say that something has been confirmed. Yes, I am saying rebels never had any BUKs. The only place in the region that could have them and that modification (based on missile numbers) is Ukraine, nobody else. But since there are too many in Ukraine who want to avoid responsibility, and also JIT is keep to appoint Russia or Russians - you may succeed in fabricating a case (e.g. using “social media” and “phone videos”), but those truly responsible aren’t likely to be even named.


There you go, hypocritical, you are saying: the in-depth investigation of the JIT isn't to be believed. But you are more than willing to point to Ukraine as the perpetrator without any evidence. That is why you are labeled a Russian troll, paid or not, that doesn't matter, you are willing to defend Putin regime without reservation.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
jetmechanicdave
Moderator
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 4:27 pm

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:38 pm

Please keep on topic without the personal stuff guys. Thanks for understanding.
Aircraft Mechanic and Airliners.net Forum Moderator
 
tu204
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:07 pm

Anyhow, back on topic.

Dutchy, you care to explain why the regime in Kiev shouldn't talk to the seperatists and how they wanna regain control over their sovereignty if they decide not to talk?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
alfa164
Posts: 2912
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:02 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Nobody will forget the MH17 murders that Russia did, nobody.


:checkmark: This. .Before the downing of MH17, most of Europe tried to ignore the dirty little war in their backyard. There is no doubt that some of the nations, who relied on Russia for gas supplies in the winter, didn't want to confront Putin's aggression in Eastern Ukraine, and were satisfied to pay lip service to the sanctions imposed on that regime.

MH17 changed that. The crisis in Ukraine could no longer be ignored. Europeans stepped-up their resistance, and the USA began to supply weapons - such as anti-tank missiles - that had previously been held back. Now it looks like surface-to-air missiles may be added to the mix, giving the Ukrainians even more firepower to counter the Russian weapons and their cronies operating them in the East.

Whether or not this forces Putin to blink or not is unpredictable, but it clearly makes his strategy of undermining the country's institutions and supporting the insurrection - led by a rag-tag group of "separatists" and his own agents - more expensive. And, as you noted, the rest of the world is no longer ignoring - and will not forget - the crisis there. That is the best news so far.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
anrec80
Posts: 1996
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:10 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Before the downing of MH17, most of Europe tried to ignore the dirty little war in their backyard. There is no doubt that some of the nations, who relied on Russia for gas supplies in the winter, didn't want to confront Putin's aggression in Eastern Ukraine, and were satisfied to pay lip service to the sanctions imposed on that regime.


Then why the whole Europe is nonetheless building the Nord Stream 2? Western part of Europe is looking hard for a way to get out of this whole Ukrainian mess for quite a few years now. And - guess what - Russians don’t have anything against Europe being in this soup at all. Europe supported that coup, now they are the ones to handle the consequences.

alfa164 wrote:
cronies operating them in the East.


The “cronies” you are talking about are Ukrainian citizens Kiev regime must enter negotiations with.

alfa164 wrote:
rest of the world is no longer ignoring - and will not forget - the crisis there. That is the best news so far.


Nobody outside of the West has ever been in this mess. And most of the West is now looking for exactly that - to forget it all and get out of this mess they created. But Russians are making it that easy for them.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:14 pm

tu204 wrote:
Anyhow, back on topic.

Dutchy, you care to explain why the regime in Kiev shouldn't talk to the seperatists and how they wanna regain control over their sovereignty if they decide not to talk?


I didn't say that, now did I.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
alfa164
Posts: 2912
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Ukraine crisis - 5 years on

Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:32 pm

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I call upon your Putin regime to stop supporting them in order to have talks between the government and these citizens and normalize the situation instead of defacto Russian territory.

There are politicians in Ukraine that are in contact with their leadership. And Kiev regime should establish this contact too - with the citizens and their leadership. This is where your call should go - upon Kiev regime. Russia or anyone else doesn’t prevent them from doing so.

Russia might or might not prevent them in doing so, I don't know what Putin is telling them, you apparently do...Anyhow, why should they? They can lead their fake country and have power because they are Moscow protected. Are you calling up to your Putin regime to stop supporting the regime?


Of course the Russians claim that it is up to Ukraine to make all the moves - and, of course, they are lying. Here is a more objective view:

"...in addition to the many troops Russia retains on its side of the border who can deploy quickly throughout the DNR and LNR, separatist sources and Western officials say, it has a number of units inside the entities. One of the most useful steps Moscow could take to demonstrate its willingness to help resolve the conflict would be to quietly withdraw those units. This would substantially increase Ukrainian and Western confidence that it is indeed committed to Minsk. The international community could then ensure that Ukraine did not try to take advantage by moving across the line of separation.

Another important step for Russia would be to reduce military supplies to the entities. Cuts in fuel, lubricants and ammunition for artillery and other heavy weapons would gradually diminish their forces’ mobility and effectiveness. As Russia still denies providing such items, this could be done with minimal publicity or face loss. The international community, including the U.S., might react with confidence-building measures, perhaps including a security dialogue in the region, or consultations on ways to dismantle the poorly-disciplined LNR and DNR militaries.

Until there is a clearly positive change in the core Russian approach, the international community needs to build its policy toward Moscow over eastern Ukraine on the assumption that anything, including more serious fighting, is possible. For now, this may seem highly unlikely. Russia is embroiled in Syria, the Donbas has been banished from its media, and the economy is under great strain, due in part to sanctions, in part to low oil prices. But large Russian units have already fought twice in Ukraine, once (February 2015) even during peace talks. Moscow could resort to such means again should the lower-cost, lower-visibility approach of supporting the entities in a protracted conflict fail. The European Union (EU), especially member states Germany and France, and the U.S. should avoid the trap of letting a potentially lengthy resolution process and different interpretations of its provisions undermine their vital consensus on maintaining sanctions until Minsk is fully implemented."


(From September 2016, and still pertinent)
.

https://www.crisisgroup.org/europe-cent ... rn-ukraine
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aaron747, Bing [Bot], SRQLOT, stratclub and 18 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos