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BN747
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Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:49 am

I sure didn't...first I've ever heard of this.

Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-ar ... ine.html/2

Someone brought it up at an post-Oscar party because of the film 'Alone in Berlin' won in some category (as I've always been a rather anti-Oscar type) now I gotta see this film (on Nextflix apparently).

But after reading the article (link) about the first victim, Sophie Scholl and then about the 17yo kid who was beheaded...I was pretty much thrown off a bit at this recent 'discovery'...

BN747
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:01 am

Tried to read the OP, but every time it keeps jumping to a link about Apple iPhones.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:21 am

BN747 wrote:
I sure didn't...first I've ever heard of this.

Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-ar ... ine.html/2

BN747


I did.

The French used it right up until 1977. The Germans last used it in 1966

The guillotine remained the official method of execution in France until the death penalty was abolished in 1981. The final three guillotinings in France before its abolition were those of child-murderers Christian Ranucci (on 28 July 1976) in Marseille, Jérôme Carrein (on 23 June 1977) in Douai and torturer-murderer Hamida Djandoubi (on 10 September 1977) in Marseille

The guillotine was used for the last time in West Germany in 1949 (in the execution of Richard Schuh) and it was last used in East Germany in 1966 (in the execution of Horst Fischer). The guillotine was used in East Germany by the Stasi between 1950 and 1966 for secret executions.


It's a pretty effective way of executing bad people, I don't see any problem with it, it's certainly more efficient that the drug cocktails used in the US for lethal injections.
 
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:50 pm

BN747 wrote:
I sure didn't...first I've ever heard of this.

Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-ar ... ine.html/2

Someone brought it up at an post-Oscar party because of the film 'Alone in Berlin' won in some category (as I've always been a rather anti-Oscar type) now I gotta see this film (on Nextflix apparently).

But after reading the article (link) about the first victim, Sophie Scholl and then about the 17yo kid who was beheaded...I was pretty much thrown off a bit at this recent 'discovery'...

BN747


Compared to the other ways they killed people, I’d have lined up to go this way.
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:23 pm

Still barbaric, but at least quick and painless (in theory) unlike the gas chambers.
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:30 pm

DL717 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
I sure didn't...first I've ever heard of this.

Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-ar ... ine.html/2

Someone brought it up at an post-Oscar party because of the film 'Alone in Berlin' won in some category (as I've always been a rather anti-Oscar type) now I gotta see this film (on Nextflix apparently).

But after reading the article (link) about the first victim, Sophie Scholl and then about the 17yo kid who was beheaded...I was pretty much thrown off a bit at this recent 'discovery'...

BN747


Compared to the other ways they killed people, I’d have lined up to go this way.

I'd still rather be shot in the heart and/or head.
Kiwirob wrote:
It's a pretty effective way of executing bad people, I don't see any problem with it, it's certainly more efficient that the drug cocktails used in the US for lethal injections.

I don't know about other countries, but the US Constitution prohibits the guillotines use under the guise of "cruel and unusual punishment" (dismemberment/decapitation). That's not to say decapitations haven't taken place, when hanging was still around, if it was set up wrong, the head would come off; but decapitation wasn't the goal.
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BN747
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:39 pm

I've still yet to see the movie, but I was totally caught off guard when the comment was made.

But after reading the article posted was taken back by the machinations behind the scenes such as the solicitation of 'the Executioners'...the job paid quite a handsome salary for those willing to step into the position and then the state billed the family all the cost and then some.

I'm wondering just how fair down the rabbit hole to go as far as knowing what else did these murderous cretins engage in that I'm unaware of.

I mean, are there other additional equally or more heinous than this? That's just such extremely high number to go in such barbaric fashion (I know in the face of the millions of lives lost due the regime, it's nothing, but I help but think how think..that as a species, our actions of state sanctioned cruelty is separated by 40 years - the French ending it in 1977.
That is not long at all.

Yes technologically, we are pretty advanced and moving faster day by day, but our mindsets simply aren't keeping pace - not even close. On the timeline of human advancement, we remain eerily close to our days 'animalistic conduct' than the modern 'enlightened society' the delude ourselves to be,

Not a good report card at all...


BN747

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Mortyman
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:42 pm

The last person who got the capital punishment in Norway in peace time got beheaded with an axe … in 1876



The last ones who got capital punishment ever in Norway ( war crimes ) was after world war 2. Both Germans and Norwegians

Capital punishment in Norway:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_p ... _in_Norway


Here you can read about capital punishment in the various countries:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... by_country


Various methods … :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... punishment



BN747 wrote:

I mean, are there other additional equally or more heinous than this?




It's a good thing you weren't around during viking times … ;-)
 
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:06 pm

Watch Sophie Scholl

Great movie.
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910A
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:30 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
BN747 wrote:
I sure didn't...first I've ever heard of this.

Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-ar ... ine.html/2

BN747


I did.

The French used it right up until 1977. The Germans last used it in 1966



It's a pretty effective way of executing bad people, I don't see any problem with it, it's certainly more efficient that the drug cocktails used in the US for lethal injections.


Quick and painless..and very cost effective.
 
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:33 pm

I'm against capital punishment, whatever the means to do it, it's the practice itself that is barbaric first and foremost. I understand and feel as others that having one's head separated from the rest does seem particularly gruesome, but the guillotine was invented to be humane, and proved to be so.

Kiwirob wrote:
It's a pretty effective way of executing bad people, I don't see any problem with it, it's certainly more efficient that the drug cocktails used in the US for lethal injections.


Except the bad people were doing the executing.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:54 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
DL717 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
I sure didn't...first I've ever heard of this.

Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-ar ... ine.html/2

Someone brought it up at an post-Oscar party because of the film 'Alone in Berlin' won in some category (as I've always been a rather anti-Oscar type) now I gotta see this film (on Nextflix apparently).

But after reading the article (link) about the first victim, Sophie Scholl and then about the 17yo kid who was beheaded...I was pretty much thrown off a bit at this recent 'discovery'...

BN747


Compared to the other ways they killed people, I’d have lined up to go this way.

I'd still rather be shot in the heart and/or head.
Kiwirob wrote:
It's a pretty effective way of executing bad people, I don't see any problem with it, it's certainly more efficient that the drug cocktails used in the US for lethal injections.

I don't know about other countries, but the US Constitution prohibits the guillotines use under the guise of "cruel and unusual punishment" (dismemberment/decapitation). That's not to say decapitations haven't taken place, when hanging was still around, if it was set up wrong, the head would come off; but decapitation wasn't the goal.


Interesting because the guillotine was invented to be the quickest most pain free method of execution.
 
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:18 pm

BN747 wrote:
I mean, are there other additional equally or more heinous than this?




The USA still uses the electric chair. I think that literally frying someone to death is quite a bit more barbaric than the quick and painless guillotine.
 
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:42 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Compared to the other ways they killed people, I’d have lined up to go this way.

I'd still rather be shot in the heart and/or head.
Kiwirob wrote:
It's a pretty effective way of executing bad people, I don't see any problem with it, it's certainly more efficient that the drug cocktails used in the US for lethal injections.

I don't know about other countries, but the US Constitution prohibits the guillotines use under the guise of "cruel and unusual punishment" (dismemberment/decapitation). That's not to say decapitations haven't taken place, when hanging was still around, if it was set up wrong, the head would come off; but decapitation wasn't the goal.


Interesting because the guillotine was invented to be the quickest most pain free method of execution.

Getting shot is pretty painless and quick too lol. But it's been reported that victims of the guillotine still had brain function after the fact.
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Okie
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:06 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
It's a pretty effective way of executing bad people, I don't see any problem with it, it's certainly more efficient that the drug cocktails used in the US for lethal injections.


I do not really know except that in the US 70,200 Americans died from Opioid addiction in 2017 (latest available numbers)
I can not answer myself from the humanity perspective but not one of them even flinched from what I understand.

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BN747
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:33 pm

Mortyman wrote:


BN747 wrote:

I mean, are there other additional equally or more heinous than this?




It's a good thing you weren't around during viking times … ;-)


It's a good thing NONE of us weren't around during viking times … ;-)...odds are none of us would fare to well under those situations...

But the beheading thing is just grotesque...period.

Electrocution/shot - not so pretty either but nowhere near as grotesque.

Some people can eat dinner while watching a scene where an actor is puking his guts out...I'm not one of those.
Some people can eat dinner while watch scenes of animals being killed or slaughtered - watching how hamburgers are made. - not for me.

War movies while eating, I can do. Many people have stronger stomachs, EMT workers, cops, combat soldiers, Hospital employees, etc.. I guess that's why those people ease into those jobs better than others.

But the beheading thing stands out as barbaric above all others.

PPVRA wrote:
Watch Sophie Scholl

Great movie.


Thanks for that suggestion, had no idea a film of her was made.

BN747
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:18 pm

We should use the method we use to slaughter animals.

We should actually probably do this prior to embalming anyways in case there's ever a zombie apocalypse. Though 6 feet down is probably plenty enough to keep them down there I suppose. Can't be too safe. [/sarcasm]
 
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:50 pm

The use of the Guillotine during the Nazi regime of Germany seems to be small compared to other methods used and was a legal method in Germany before and after the Nazi era in East and West Germany. It appears to have been mostly used for political crimes, spies, certain violent opposition persons in the Nazi era. Likely most Nazi era executions outside of the Holocaust were likely done by bullet or hanging.

At least it isn't as perverse as some methods allegedly used in modern North Korea including bitten to death by packs of dogs, shot at by a howitzer, or in one recent story of use of a flamethrower.
 
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:41 am

TWA772LR wrote:
But it's been reported that victims of the guillotine still had brain function after the fact.

If you are relying on Dr. Beaurieux's report from 1905, please consider that it wasn't exactly rigorously scientific.

From a medical viewpoint you simply have to ask what constitutes sentience. What enables the brain to function?

The answer is oxygen, delivered by blood supply.

Hence what stops a brain from functioning is hypoxia (aka cerebral anoxia)

Why would a bullet to the heart yield a quicker "less painful" result than the guillotine?

In both cases the flow of blood, and hence oxygen, is stopped. Dead.
:tombstone:

Except that if you pause to think about that for a moment, you might want to question the timeline.
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Generally the shock of the blade (or bullet) would bring unconsciousness almost straight away, but failing that, the most anyone would be expected to show any signs of life before the brain finally dies is around 12 seconds.

p.s. I'm not a Doctor, so you can always comfort yourselves that I don't actually know what I am talking about.
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:57 pm

As a Brit I still favour hanging, the drop, when done correctly, is instant. The brain no longer fuctions, so death, no registry of pain. The gas chamber was a terrible slow way, electric chair as bad, shooting open to error. The guillotine, yes a quicky. But all methods have a build up to the event which must play on the mind of the convicted, is that cruel? Different societies, different choices I guess.
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kaitak
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:53 am

It's actually called a "fallbeil" (or falling axe) in German, but the concept is the same. Interesting to note that the Nazis executed many more by guillotine/fallbeil than the French did during the revolution and terror that followed. The Germans used an actual block and axe right until the late 1930s; I think Hitler ordered several of them to be in use at various places. Sophie Scholl, her brother and Christoph Probst were executed in Munich; many of the most notorious executions took place at Plotzenzee Prison in Berlin.

By no means all were by guillotine. Those accused and convicted of involvement in the 1943 rising against Hitler were hanged by piano wire. Hitler ordered their executions filmed and watched them afterwards. Others like Admiral Canaris and Dietrich Bonhoffer (a famous pastor) were hanged naked.

Currently, only Saudi Arabia uses beheading as a means of execution.
 
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:06 pm

And many more horrific ways that we’ll probably never know.
 
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:45 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
And many more horrific ways that we’ll probably never know.


If you include Dr. Mengele they've probably gotten trough most possible variants.

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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:17 am

kaitak wrote:
It's actually called a "fallbeil" (or falling axe) in German, but the concept is the same. Interesting to note that the Nazis executed many more by guillotine/fallbeil than the French did during the revolution and terror that followed. The Germans used an actual block and axe right until the late 1930s; I think Hitler ordered several of them to be in use at various places. Sophie Scholl, her brother and Christoph Probst were executed in Munich; many of the most notorious executions took place at Plotzenzee Prison in Berlin.

By no means all were by guillotine. Those accused and convicted of involvement in the 1943 rising against Hitler were hanged by piano wire. Hitler ordered their executions filmed and watched them afterwards. Others like Admiral Canaris and Dietrich Bonhoffer (a famous pastor) were hanged naked.

Currently, only Saudi Arabia uses beheading as a means of execution.


The Fallbeil was used in the German Democratic Republic until 1966, the last one to be executed with this method was a Doctor from KZ Auschwitz III Monowitz, so a Nazi. Link to Wikipedia of all persons wit death penalty in the German Democratic Republic, but in German only.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von ... n_Personen

In Western Germany death penalty was forbidden by the Grundgesetz = Basic Constitution Law as it is until know in Germany. There have been discussions about a reintroduction from time to time
 
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Re: Did You Know The Nazi’s Killed 16,000 People By Guillotine?

Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:44 pm

SQ22 wrote:
There have been discussions about a reintroduction from time to time


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