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sonicruiser
Posts: 468
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:59 am

freqyflyer wrote:
That was a touching a justification of terrorism plain & simple Perhaps you could explain some bothersome details: How did this young men and his backers obtain military grade explosives, where do they get their training and financing and what particular persuasion do they belong to? Why do these particular young men not choose the path of standing for elections and seek self governance or even secession constitutionally? Do they have an aversion for the democratic process and a propensity for violence? Were there natives of another faith who once lived there and have been chased away? Do those of this faith act one way when in the minority and another when in the majority? There are unhappy federations everywhere but only this particular persuasion uses car bombs, RDX and IED to express their dissatisfaction?

I don't hate that persuasion. I just hope that the vast majority of sensible people in that group, such as yourself, do some introspection about your own thought process especially since you yourself, I assume, are enjoying all the lovely fruits that a tolerant, pluarsistic society has to offer.


How stupid and short sighted would it be for Pakistan to support an attack when it is actively trying to attract foreign investment and was in the middle of hosting the Saudis? This logic doesn't make sense even from a Pakistani perspective.
 
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sturmovik
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:11 am

It has still not been conclusively proven that a MiG 21 shot down an F-16. Not saying it's not possible, just not enough proof other than the IAFs say-so. Pretty much every article I've seen seems to lead back to that original claim, I'd love to see this independently verified. It was great to see folks debunk the initial errors and misinformation in the media especially on the other side of the border, pointing out pictures of old crashes being recycled etc, yet when it comes to this central claim, somehow we're just supposed to believe GoI and IAF.
'What's it doing now?'
 
BarfBag
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:27 am

Revelation wrote:
You do realize that personal attacks are against the forum rules, right?

It's a straightforward fact - you questioned the capability of an aircraft mere hours after it shot down a vastly superior opponent with newer, better western technology, and longer range more capable missiles, within its own airspace.

Some nebulous 'procurement challenge' is a more pertinent argument than real world demonstrated performance in a hot shooting battle hours prior ? Now tell us how that logic fits the F-16 then - what do you have to say about something that can't hold its own within its own airspace with comparatively cutting edge western technology ? What kind of ah, right, 'procurement challenges', resulted in that ?
Revelation wrote:
Actually my point was about India's procurement challenges that result in prisoners captured in neighboring countries.

The way the US equips its military is off topic for this thread.

Maybe you should join the B-52 thread in mil-av.

Oh right, Indian procurement challenges are the topic of this thread but US procurement challenges aren't :roll: You're the first guy to use the word in this thread, you realize ?

The reason he landed in Pakistan is because this entire skirmish has been kept to within Pakistan's borders. That's the most effective way to accomplish it. The Wg Cdr anyway is to be repatriated today, as they're required to do according to the Geneva Convention.
 
BarfBag
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:30 am

sturmovik wrote:
It has still not been conclusively proven that a MiG 21 shot down an F-16. Not saying it's not possible, just not enough proof other than the IAFs say-so.

There's no proof that Bin Laden is dead other than that the US military said so. You don't even have any belief in the professional competence of your own armed forces ? Fine, the rest of us will keep that in mind, since this matter isn't about the armed forces.
 
BarfBag
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:37 am

Revelation wrote:
freqyflyer wrote:
If there is an arsonist in the neighborhood, he is a criminal who needs to be dealt as such.

Haven't moved past mob justice then?

What could possibly go wrong?

Can you point us to the court transcripts of Bin Laden's trial where he got fair representation, a very good lawyer and more, and of course no death penalty since that's not civilized and all of EU has banned it ?

The Indian Air Force went in and obliterated a terrorist camp. Something the US armed forces has been doing again and again. If you have time after you're done demonstrating in front of the Pentagon against the mob justice efforts of the US Army and USAF of EXACTLY the same kind, please do share the information about the trial mentioned above. Thanks.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:38 am

Many people, who consider terrorists as people are waiting for Lockheed Martin to issue a statement regarding the shoot down :rotfl:

BarfBag wrote:
Revelation wrote:
freqyflyer wrote:
If there is an arsonist in the neighborhood, he is a criminal who needs to be dealt as such.

Haven't moved past mob justice then?

What could possibly go wrong?

Can you point us to the court transcripts of Bin Laden's trial where he got fair representation, a very good lawyer and more, and of course no death penalty since that's not civilized and all of EU has banned it ?

The Indian Air Force went in and obliterated a terrorist camp. Something the US armed forces has been doing again and again. If you have time after you're done demonstrating in front of the Pentagon against the mob justice efforts of the US Army and USAF of EXACTLY the same kind, please do share the information about the trial mentioned above. Thanks.


Not to forget, the epitome of human rights, also known as Gunatanamo Bay
 
LH658
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:07 am

sonicruiser wrote:
freqyflyer wrote:
That was a touching a justification of terrorism plain & simple Perhaps you could explain some bothersome details: How did this young men and his backers obtain military grade explosives, where do they get their training and financing and what particular persuasion do they belong to? Why do these particular young men not choose the path of standing for elections and seek self governance or even secession constitutionally? Do they have an aversion for the democratic process and a propensity for violence? Were there natives of another faith who once lived there and have been chased away? Do those of this faith act one way when in the minority and another when in the majority? There are unhappy federations everywhere but only this particular persuasion uses car bombs, RDX and IED to express their dissatisfaction?

I don't hate that persuasion. I just hope that the vast majority of sensible people in that group, such as yourself, do some introspection about your own thought process especially since you yourself, I assume, are enjoying all the lovely fruits that a tolerant, pluarsistic society has to offer.


How stupid and short sighted would it be for Pakistan to support an attack when it is actively trying to attract foreign investment and was in the middle of hosting the Saudis? This logic doesn't make sense even from a Pakistani perspective.


Just drop it man we know your right, have you seen their media they just keep adding fuel to the fire for no reason, and they claim to be peaceful/secular nation. Let them enjoy their cow dung fiesta. They can detect someone slaughtering a Cow, or taking to much Cow piss, then their allowed, but RAW can't detect someone planning a attack?
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1226
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Re: Tensions in South Asia - Pakistani and North Indian Airspace Shut Down

Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:21 am

glen wrote:
avier wrote:

Just look at the terrain on the eastern part. The elevations there average around 14k ft, hence would be unsuitable in case of emergencies like decompression, engine failure, or emergency landing, as there aren't many airstrips there and the aircraft wouldn't be able to come down to a safe breathable altitude.


:checkmark:
And even if you had the right aircraft for a long flight over high terrain (four engine aircraft with additional oxygen for all passengers), I doubt you will get an overflight permission from China on such short notice. Maybe in a year or so...

Certainly not over Tibet where few air routes exist anyway. If you go via China you then face an even bigger diversion as you have to go via Nepal and you also have to have a specially equipped planes with extra oxygen onboard.

Michael
 
freqyflyer
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:23 am

In 1998, Bill Clinton had the opportunity to have OBL blown into oblivion but decided against it. The history of this world - the thousands killed - the trillions spent - may have altered its course right then. Who would have thought that good old Bill could pass on a blow *** but then again, hindsight is 20/20. Knowing what we know today, why would anyone hesitate to eliminate known sources of terrorism and this warped ideology? Today, India may be the victim (simply because it's next door and an open society) but it won't take long for these guys to spread their wings in a globalized world. Learn from history lest you repeat it.
 
sonicruiser
Posts: 468
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:42 am

BarfBag wrote:
sturmovik wrote:
It has still not been conclusively proven that a MiG 21 shot down an F-16. Not saying it's not possible, just not enough proof other than the IAFs say-so.

There's no proof that Bin Laden is dead other than that the US military said so. You don't even have any belief in the professional competence of your own armed forces ? Fine, the rest of us will keep that in mind, since this matter isn't about the armed forces.


I'm not commenting on India's military since they haven't said anything about this shootdown, but I will comment on India's media since the government has basically let them become the de-facto spokesman for the country.

Let me try to be as kind as possible here: Comparing the US military's statements and the Indian media's statements is like comparing apples to زہر (poison). There is absolutely no comparison whatsoever between them. US military statements are a gazillion times more reputable and trustworthy than any statement from the sorry, toxic, and utterly cancerous excuse for journalism known as the Indian media, ESPECIALLY regarding Pakistan. If 245 people actually were killed as the Indian media claims, Pakistan would've used tactical nukes on India days ago. Fake news in the US is child's play comparing to the fact free fiction circulated in India. Luckily for them, they only hit a couple of trees. Please do not take my word for this, I encourage everyone right now to watch the absolutely delusional hysteria unfolding on Indian media channels and their coverage on Pakistan for themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqusr ... mEYTDeJHzw
 
jetmechanicdave
Moderator
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Re: Tensions in South Asia - Pakistani and North Indian Airspace Shut Down

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:38 am

Topic has been moved due to politics.
Aircraft Mechanic and Airliners.net Forum Moderator
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2100
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:06 am

Is the pakistani airspace open now?
 
sonicruiser
Posts: 468
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:09 am

freqyflyer wrote:
In 1998, Bill Clinton had the opportunity to have OBL blown into oblivion but decided against it. The history of this world - the thousands killed - the trillions spent - may have altered its course right then. Who would have thought that good old Bill could pass on a blow *** but then again, hindsight is 20/20. Knowing what we know today, why would anyone hesitate to eliminate known sources of terrorism and this warped ideology? Today, India may be the victim (simply because it's next door and an open society) but it won't take long for these guys to spread their wings in a globalized world. Learn from history lest you repeat it.


Unfortunately, in 1998, 9/11 hadn't occurred yet so the threat posed at the time was severely and tragically underestimated. I agree with you 110% he should have been killed to the point of irrelevancy. Once they finally did kill him, they should've burned his body before throwing his carcass into the ocean. Hindsight is 20/20.

However, the India-Pakistan situation is nowhere near as clear cut. One area I disagree with the US is that it has unintentionally downplayed Pakistan's fight against extremism because it doesn't actually understand what the Kashmir issue is. There is a tendency not just in the US but in countries around the world to label certain groups as extremist simply because they are not on the same side. Kashmir happens to be one of the biggest examples of this. I get that there is a view in the US to think Pakistan isn't doing enough because OBL was killed there and I agree that is completely warranted. However, the US has mended relations with Japan, Vietnam, Germany, and numerous other countries despite each of those countries at one point in history being considered the height of evil by the US. Pakistan is not different in that regard.

As far as India's right to do what they believe to be pre-emptive strikes, it is a grey area. Morally, they are right to do it, but the reality is different. You simply cannot attack a sovereign nation without absolute crystal clear certainty of what you are about to do and your ability to do it. The US had to wait years to go for the kill of OBL even though he was the most wanted criminal in the world, because the risk of intruding into a country and having incorrect intelligence will not only result in a failed objective from your own side but anger from the other side as well, which happened to be a critical ally the US needed in Afghanistan. For this mission, the US sent their most experienced Navy SEALS, their best equipment, with the most certain and irrefutable intelligence, and a thorough plan with contingencies for every possible situation. As a result, with the exception of a few minor issues, their objective was achieved as a big success and Pakistan for all intents and purposes did not significantly dispute the incident.

India did not have any of this. They also truly believed that "If the US was able to kill OBL, India should be able to do it too." (This is an actual quote from Arun Jaitley, look it up). Their belief was that striking a JeM camp will be a piece of cake for them because India is "Supapowa 2020"(There's still 1 more year before 2020 guys) and because they had previously done a successful surgical strike after the Uri attack. However there is a big difference between the Uri strike and this one. The Uri strike was 1-3 km into Pakistani territory and could effectively be targeted without even going into Pakistani airspace. This strike was over 50km deep into Pakistani territory. You cannot go and strike 50km deep into a sovereign country. It just doesn't work. They sent an ancient Mig-21, with dodgy intelligence at best, in the middle of the night WITHOUT night vision, and no plan whatsoever. Subsequently, they then proceeded to completely miss their target and instead hit a couple of trees (shocking). Amazingly, as a result of some astonishing arrogance, the Indian PM aka the dumbfuck responsible for this fiasco then goes on TV the next day and thumps his 56 inch chest and brashly proclaims "Me desh ko mitne ne dunga!" (I won't let my country be erased off the map) to the wild cheers of the crowd. They completely underestimate Pakistan's ability to strike back. (Rule #1 is to never underestimate your enemy). While all of this is unfolding in India during the speech, Pakistan summons a secret meeting to plan and then execute a counter strike in order to retaliate for this airspace violation and in order to deliver a stern message to India without inflicting any casualties (as India unintentionally ended up doing by missing their target) purely as a symbolic show of strength to demonstrate that Pakistan can and will respond to Indian aggression which until the shootdown India actually did not believe to be possible. The very next day, PAF waits until it is daylight, reconfirms its intelligence over Indian military targets, selects their best equipment in the form of their newest aircraft, the JF-17, and runs through the plan with the squadron one final time. As planned, the PAF jets return the favor and successfully strike their military targets in India as the IAF planned to do in Pakistan. On the return back into Pakistan, PAF is pursued by IAF jets (no surprise). At this point, I should note that when IAF jets entered Pakistan for their strike the day before, PAF jets chased them out to the border but not past it. This is the fatal flaw that resulted in the IAF jets getting shot down. When IAF jets chased PAF jets all the way past the border and deep into Pakistani territory, that was the point of no return. It was at was at this point that the IAF pilots realized they had made a critical mistake and got cornered which would ultimately lead to their shootdown. The IAF jets had just been baited by PAF and the IAF jets took the bait. This is where everything finally unraveled and they got shot down and the IAF pilot captured. Despite what the Indian media would have people believe, the Pakistani army actually rescued the pilot from villagers attacking him after he got shot down and the IAF pilot then made a statement thanking for Pakistan and their gracious treatment of him in custody after he was offered tea by the army (there is video of both the villagers and the pilot's statement on Twitter). After the smoke had cleared, it was evident thourough and extensive planning leads to success, hence Pakistan's virtually undisputed position in the international community as having the upper hand (obviously outside of India) and India being forced to the negotiating table. The PM of Pakistan then voluntarily offered to release the pilot the next day effectively undercutting a need for India to even negotiate at all as a symbolic gesture of peace. Tomorrow we will find out if India really wants peace.

Pakistani army rescues the IAF pilot: https://twitter.com/khalid_pk/status/11 ... 06112?s=20

Statement from the IAF pilot: https://twitter.com/OfficialDGISPR/stat ... 15584?s=20

PM Statement releasing IAF Pilot tomorrow: https://twitter.com/PakPMO/status/1101079948884881408
Last edited by sonicruiser on Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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unrave
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:30 am

anshabhi wrote:
Is the pakistani airspace open now?

Not yet
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
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Revelation
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:42 pm

BarfBag wrote:
Revelation wrote:
freqyflyer wrote:
If there is an arsonist in the neighborhood, he is a criminal who needs to be dealt as such.

Haven't moved past mob justice then?

What could possibly go wrong?

Can you point us to the court transcripts of Bin Laden's trial where he got fair representation, a very good lawyer and more, and of course no death penalty since that's not civilized and all of EU has banned it ?

The Indian Air Force went in and obliterated a terrorist camp. Something the US armed forces has been doing again and again. If you have time after you're done demonstrating in front of the Pentagon against the mob justice efforts of the US Army and USAF of EXACTLY the same kind, please do share the information about the trial mentioned above. Thanks.

Not surprised to see you going with the "mommy, he's doing it too!" defense.

That's what one does when one can't justify one's actions on their own.

At least you can't now claim moral superiority.

Glad to see this neanderthal thread moved to the thread sewer, it was just a matter of time.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
blrsea
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:24 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
freqyflyer wrote:
That was a touching a justification of terrorism plain & simple Perhaps you could explain some bothersome details: How did this young men and his backers obtain military grade explosives, where do they get their training and financing and what particular persuasion do they belong to? Why do these particular young men not choose the path of standing for elections and seek self governance or even secession constitutionally? Do they have an aversion for the democratic process and a propensity for violence? Were there natives of another faith who once lived there and have been chased away? Do those of this faith act one way when in the minority and another when in the majority? There are unhappy federations everywhere but only this particular persuasion uses car bombs, RDX and IED to express their dissatisfaction?

I don't hate that persuasion. I just hope that the vast majority of sensible people in that group, such as yourself, do some introspection about your own thought process especially since you yourself, I assume, are enjoying all the lovely fruits that a tolerant, pluarsistic society has to offer.


How stupid and short sighted would it be for Pakistan to support an attack when it is actively trying to attract foreign investment and was in the middle of hosting the Saudis? This logic doesn't make sense even from a Pakistani perspective.



Maybe you need to go back and read how Musharaff was planning Kargil misadventure when Nawaz Sharief was hosting AB Vajapayee on his visit??

Who doesn't know that Imran Khan is a nominated PM?? The real power was never in any civil PM's hand since time of Zia. Every PM has had to follow the pakistani army on foreign policy. Any wonder they are caught sponsoring terrorism in Iran, Afghanistan, India, Bangladesh etc? The fact that Bin Laden was in close proximity of GHQ should have given a clue. A terrorist was exchanged for hostages in civil plane, and where did he end up in? Pakistan! Every tom, dick & harry knows about the good and bad terrorists that the pakistani army is nurturing. Is it any wonder that US was trying hard unsuccessfully for pak to crack down on Haqqani's network ?

The pakistani army has built up a huge enterprise, they are the largest land owner in pakistan and one of the biggest commercial conglomerates. Read Ayesha Siddiqui's book on the pakistani army's empire.

Is it any wonder that every visting foreign dignitary pays a visit to GHQ to meet the generals, which doesn't happen in any other country? To claim Imran is some kind of peacenik is just laughable. Anyone who has watched pakistan's shennanigans knows that. He will serve that seat at the pleasure of GHQ.

This should also shoot up pakistan's expenditure on defence. Will be good for the country!
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:08 pm

Looks like paperwork is taking forever (or) Modi wants to take credit in a political rally and Pakistan wants to deny that.
 
freqyflyer
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:31 pm

LH658 wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
freqyflyer wrote:
That was a touching a justification of terrorism plain & simple Perhaps you could explain some bothersome details: How did this young men and his backers obtain military grade explosives, where do they get their training and financing and what particular persuasion do they belong to? Why do these particular young men not choose the path of standing for elections and seek self governance or even secession constitutionally? Do they have an aversion for the democratic process and a propensity for violence? Were there natives of another faith who once lived there and have been chased away? Do those of this faith act one way when in the minority and another when in the majority? There are unhappy federations everywhere but only this particular persuasion uses car bombs, RDX and IED to express their dissatisfaction?

I don't hate that persuasion. I just hope that the vast majority of sensible people in that group, such as yourself, do some introspection about your own thought process especially since you yourself, I assume, are enjoying all the lovely fruits that a tolerant, pluarsistic society has to offer.


How stupid and short sighted would it be for Pakistan to support an attack when it is actively trying to attract foreign investment and was in the middle of hosting the Saudis? This logic doesn't make sense even from a Pakistani perspective.


Just drop it man we know your right, have you seen their media they just keep adding fuel to the fire for no reason, and they claim to be peaceful/secular nation. Let them enjoy their cow dung fiesta. They can detect someone slaughtering a Cow, or taking to much Cow piss, then their allowed, but RAW can't detect someone planning a attack?


- I agree that the media is loud and jingoistic but how is that related to being a peaceful/secular nation. Why would you even watch it if you think so? Befuddingly illogical unless you think India should gag its media.

- You seem to be obsessed with cow excretions. Beef (buffalo meat) is available almost everywhere and is also exported. Cow meat is banned in many states but not all. Is Pork available anywhere in Muslim countries? Are dietary restrictions and religious norms any justification for hatred?

- If our intelligence agencies were 100% successful, of course, attacks could be prevented. That's like putting the onus on the victims of terrorist attacks. Only a certain mindset can think this way.

I feel sorry at how you've been indoctrinated and that you don't seem to have deprogrammed yourself. What chance then do foolish and gullible young men have from being brain washed into jihadi cannon fodder?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:15 pm

You cannot win an asymmetric war by conventional means. If that is possible Isreal will be the safest place on earth, which is not. May sound like a broken record, but a fact.

If India wants to take out non-state actors on foreign soil, sure do so without drama and publicity. Accidents do happen at such camps, gives a face-saving opportunity to the sovereign nation hosting non-state actors.

Looks like both sides splurged on ammo, 6 x Spice 2000s $500K each and 2x AIM-120Cs $3Million each!!!

Kudos to Sushma Swaraj, Indian Ministry of External Affairs and Foreign Service bureaucrats in pulling all stops in getting their airman back. Amazing how efficient Indian bureaucrats can be when they put their minds to it.

What will be India-KSA/UAE quid-pro-quo to make this happen? Can Emirates get 50K seats in near future???
Last edited by dtw2hyd on Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
LH658
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:16 pm

freqyflyer wrote:
LH658 wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:

How stupid and short sighted would it be for Pakistan to support an attack when it is actively trying to attract foreign investment and was in the middle of hosting the Saudis? This logic doesn't make sense even from a Pakistani perspective.


Just drop it man we know your right, have you seen their media they just keep adding fuel to the fire for no reason, and they claim to be peaceful/secular nation. Let them enjoy their cow dung fiesta. They can detect someone slaughtering a Cow, or taking to much Cow piss, then their allowed, but RAW can't detect someone planning a attack?


- I agree that the media is loud and jingoistic but how is that related to being a peaceful/secular nation. Why would you even watch it if you think so? Befuddingly illogical unless you think India should gag its media.

- You seem to be obsessed with cow excretions. Beef (buffalo meat) is available almost everywhere and is also exported. Cow meat is banned in many states but not all. Is Pork available anywhere in Muslim countries? Are dietary restrictions and religious norms any justification for hatred?

- If our intelligence agencies were 100% successful, of course, attacks could be prevented. That's like putting the onus on the victims of terrorist attacks. Only a certain mindset can think this way.

I feel sorry at how you've been indoctrinated and that you don't seem to have deprogrammed yourself. What chance then do foolish and gullible young men have from being brain washed into jihadi cannon fodder?


About Bin Laden, it happened near reelection period of Obama, it was stunt he used to pull for reelection, I am pretty sure PK forces were notified, Obama needed a extra margin to win. Extra excuse to say we will potentially pull out of Afghanistan etc. I think we all know on here, about the western diplomacy. - for the post above.

Pork is actually available in Pakistan in certain stores, and restaurants, and even boars, swines, & hogs roam around in the wild of Pakistan. They also sell pork meat in Bahrain. Problem about the media in India, is it just adding fuel to the fire on baseless accusations, no logic behind it, they just twist every word, and you have billion people this what your feeding them, no wonder minorities are suffering in India, even bollywood stars can't buy flats in certain areas of Mumbai.
 
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sturmovik
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:18 pm

BarfBag wrote:
sturmovik wrote:
It has still not been conclusively proven that a MiG 21 shot down an F-16. Not saying it's not possible, just not enough proof other than the IAFs say-so.

There's no proof that Bin Laden is dead other than that the US military said so. You don't even have any belief in the professional competence of your own armed forces ? Fine, the rest of us will keep that in mind, since this matter isn't about the armed forces.


I do not worship the armed forces blindly to the point where I feel constrained in questioning their claims, and even their professional competence. That kind of blindness can lead us into becoming the sort of banana republic that our adversary across the border has become. Professional competence does not substitute for evidence. I'm looking at the facts I've read and heard, and in my head it does not add up, and I'm not beholden to the govt or the armed forces or the "rest of us" that you mention to the point that I have trouble stating what I think.
'What's it doing now?'
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:55 pm

LH658 wrote:
About Bin Laden, it happened near reelection period of Obama, it was stunt he used to pull for reelection, I am pretty sure PK forces were notified, Obama needed a extra margin to win. Extra excuse to say we will potentially pull out of Afghanistan etc. I think we all know on here, about the western diplomacy. - for the post above.

Pork is actually available in Pakistan in certain stores, and restaurants, and even boars, swines, & hogs roam around in the wild of Pakistan. They also sell pork meat in Bahrain. Problem about the media in India, is it just adding fuel to the fire on baseless accusations, no logic behind it, they just twist every word, and you have billion people this what your feeding them, no wonder minorities are suffering in India, even bollywood stars can't buy flats in certain areas of Mumbai.


I’m Pakistani and I disagree with everything you just said.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:01 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
LH658 wrote:
About Bin Laden, it happened near reelection period of Obama, it was stunt he used to pull for reelection, I am pretty sure PK forces were notified, Obama needed a extra margin to win. Extra excuse to say we will potentially pull out of Afghanistan etc. I think we all know on here, about the western diplomacy. - for the post above.

Pork is actually available in Pakistan in certain stores, and restaurants, and even boars, swines, & hogs roam around in the wild of Pakistan. They also sell pork meat in Bahrain. Problem about the media in India, is it just adding fuel to the fire on baseless accusations, no logic behind it, they just twist every word, and you have billion people this what your feeding them, no wonder minorities are suffering in India, even bollywood stars can't buy flats in certain areas of Mumbai.


I’m Pakistani and I disagree with everything you just said.

Truth is always bitter.
 
avier
Posts: 868
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:08 pm

LH658 wrote:
Pork is actually available in Pakistan in certain stores, and restaurants, and even boars, swines, & hogs roam around in the wild of Pakistan. They also sell pork meat in Bahrain. Problem about the media in India, is it just adding fuel to the fire on baseless accusations, no logic behind it, they just twist every word, and you have billion people this what your feeding them, no wonder minorities are suffering in India, even bollywood stars can't buy flats in certain areas of Mumbai.


Really? And the minorities in Pakistan are all flourishing right? We have top bollywood actors, directors, singers, sportsmen, ministers serving in govt. and such a never ending list including an ex-President all belonging to the minority group(s) in India. Show such examples of that in Pakistan, and we can take this conversation forward in a logical way.
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:20 pm

anshabhi wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
LH658 wrote:
About Bin Laden, it happened near reelection period of Obama, it was stunt he used to pull for reelection, I am pretty sure PK forces were notified, Obama needed a extra margin to win. Extra excuse to say we will potentially pull out of Afghanistan etc. I think we all know on here, about the western diplomacy. - for the post above.

Pork is actually available in Pakistan in certain stores, and restaurants, and even boars, swines, & hogs roam around in the wild of Pakistan. They also sell pork meat in Bahrain. Problem about the media in India, is it just adding fuel to the fire on baseless accusations, no logic behind it, they just twist every word, and you have billion people this what your feeding them, no wonder minorities are suffering in India, even bollywood stars can't buy flats in certain areas of Mumbai.


I’m Pakistani and I disagree with everything you just said.

Truth is always bitter.


The truth hurts? Or this kid, doesn't know his country well, and I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featu ... 03813.html

https://dailytimes.com.pk/117953/pakist ... ghanistan/

https://m.dailyhunt.in/news/india/engli ... d-85562528
https://www.bollywoodlife.com/news-goss ... -in-india/

Reports from both international media, and Pakistani media. If you live in Pakistan you would know, unfortunately this kid has no knowledge, it not hard to find pork meat, it not hard to find alcohol as well in Pakistan. Here are some articles by Bollywood stars, reported by India media, on finding housing due to their religion.
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2100
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:35 pm

LH658 wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:

I’m Pakistani and I disagree with everything you just said.

Truth is always bitter.


The truth hurts? Or this kid, doesn't know his country well, and I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featu ... 03813.html

https://dailytimes.com.pk/117953/pakist ... ghanistan/

https://m.dailyhunt.in/news/india/engli ... d-85562528
https://www.bollywoodlife.com/news-goss ... -in-india/

Reports from both international media, and Pakistani media. If you live in Pakistan you would know, unfortunately this kid has no knowledge, it not hard to find pork meat, it not hard to find alcohol as well in Pakistan. Here are some articles by Bollywood stars, reported by India media, on finding housing due to their religion.

India has over 1.3 billion and it's obvious if some people had bad experience in dealing with other people.
Here, we are talking about Pakistani govt support to terrorism as a weapon against India.
It's not like Indian govt does or has ever discriminated anyone based on their religious beliefs. Remember India has more people following Pakistan's state religion than Pakistan itself, all of whom positively contribute to the development of India as a nation.
 
avier
Posts: 868
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:37 pm

LH658 wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:

I’m Pakistani and I disagree with everything you just said.

Truth is always bitter.


The truth hurts? Or this kid, doesn't know his country well, and I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featu ... 03813.html

https://dailytimes.com.pk/117953/pakist ... ghanistan/

https://m.dailyhunt.in/news/india/engli ... d-85562528
https://www.bollywoodlife.com/news-goss ... -in-india/

Reports from both international media, and Pakistani media. If you live in Pakistan you would know, unfortunately this kid has no knowledge, it not hard to find pork meat, it not hard to find alcohol as well in Pakistan. Here are some articles by Bollywood stars, reported by India media, on finding housing due to their religion.



And as usual pay a blind eye to your own countries plaguing issues.

https://www.dailypioneer.com/2018/columnists/no-place-for-minorities-in-pakistan.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-35910331

https://www.freepressjournal.in/world/minority-hindus-of-pakistan-punjabs-haroonabad-area-told-to-vacate-houses/1097449

https://www.hudson.org/research/9781-cleansing-pakistan-of-minorities


From 23% minority population in Pakistan during time of partition to 3% today, speaks volumes eh?
On the other hand, minority population and even their welfare has increased manifolds in Pak's bigger and much nicer neighbour.
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:56 pm

anshabhi wrote:
LH658 wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Truth is always bitter.


The truth hurts? Or this kid, doesn't know his country well, and I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featu ... 03813.html

https://dailytimes.com.pk/117953/pakist ... ghanistan/

https://m.dailyhunt.in/news/india/engli ... d-85562528
https://www.bollywoodlife.com/news-goss ... -in-india/

Reports from both international media, and Pakistani media. If you live in Pakistan you would know, unfortunately this kid has no knowledge, it not hard to find pork meat, it not hard to find alcohol as well in Pakistan. Here are some articles by Bollywood stars, reported by India media, on finding housing due to their religion.

India has over 1.3 billion and it's obvious if some people had bad experience in dealing with other people.
Here, we are talking about Pakistani govt support to terrorism as a weapon against India.
It's not like Indian govt does or has ever discriminated anyone based on their religious beliefs. Remember India has more people following Pakistan's state religion than Pakistan itself, all of whom positively contribute to the development of India as a nation.


We also talking about India who also supports terrorism in Pakistan that's why we have one of your navy officers. India doesn't do anything about it Hindu militant groups.

https://indianexpress.com/article/who-i ... j-4997897/

Kartarpur Corridor idea was also another suggestion by the Pakistani, and took a while for India to jump on. Of course I never see you high light the current government, peace initiative calling for peace, making the statement if you take one step forward, we will take 2 step forwards. Just like India media full of cow dung, twisting the story up, for another Bollywood movie that will be coming out. Even your own politicians, have called out the current government during the last week. You guys should listen to Navjhot Sidhu, probably lead you guys to peace, then your current far right so called secular regime.

Question is Kashmir. Why did the person do what he did, why are Kashmir begging since 1947 to be away from India, or have independent country, even the Sikhs demand their own country, and Indians damaged the Sikh holy sites. India should listen to Kashmir, but they won't instead military wants to rape it women, tie up innocent people on their jeeps, and parade them down the streets.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/01/worl ... nQUy6Zl0IM
 
VTORD
Posts: 521
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:44 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
However, the US has mended relations with Japan, Vietnam, Germany, and numerous other countries despite each of those countries at one point in history being considered the height of evil by the US. Pakistan is not different in that regard.

You cannot compare the other 3 with Pakistan because the circumstances of the relationship are completely different. Japanese and German leadership hostile to America were eliminated at the end of WW2 and the "Allies" could shape the narrative (at least initially) to build mutually beneficial relationships of these nations post 1945. The role of industrial experts like Dr Deming and Joseph Juran in Japanese industrial advancement is well documented leading to a steady 70 year relationship building not to mention Japan's own policies of abstaining from attack (their air force is called the Air Self Defense Force for e.g.,) shaping their politics and relationship thereof.

Vietnam was a bad time in US history and it was not until President Clinton that diplomatic relationship thawed. Almost 30 years.

Pakistan was always a US ally since the Cold War era. US sentiment towards Pakistan has turned unfavorable only post-9/11. SO there is absolutely nothing in common that you are trying to invoke here.

sonicruiser wrote:
India thinks all of this started with Pulwama, Pakistan knows the problem started way before that.


No India knows it started in 1947 when Pakistan sent insurgents in to Kashmir, forcing the then Maharaj to turn to India for help. It happened again in 1965. And 1971 when Pakistan pre-entively bombed the IAF base in Srinagar to officially pull India into the war that liberated Bangladesh - which was East Pakistan on whom West Pakistan was committing atrocities on it's own people. Flash forward to 1999, while Vajpayee and every Bollywood Punjabi born in Lahore were being hosted by the Pakistan PM, a certain General Musharraf was planning Kargil. Even in Kargil at the the height of an actual war IAF planes did not breach Pakistan airspace. In summary you need to read up a bit on your own country's history of war before making such silly statements.

sonicruiser wrote:
However, the effects of these actions had delayed effects and India didn't really see the danger of their actions in brutalizing Kashmir until the response in Pulwama which is why Pakistan has been calling for peace far before Pulwama specifically to prevent something like this. All of the anger that was slowly building up in Kashmir unmasked itself that day and neither Pakistan nor India can deny it.

I agree that there has been some brutalization by some elements of the Indian armed forces in Kashmir and that is reprehensible whatever the scale. You clearly started following Indian news only after Pulwama. Kashmir and India's role in Kashmir has always been on the forefront of the Indian political debate. The # of liberals calling for an introspection of Indian state role in Kashmir, Article 370, Kashmiri Pandit problem are all intertwined and hotly debated on both left and right wing side of the aisle so please save us your sanctimonious "India didn't really see the danger of their actions in brutalizing Kashmir until the response in Pulwama" nonsense.

sonicruiser wrote:
which is why Pakistan has been calling for peace far before Pulwama specifically to prevent something like this.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :liar:

sonicruiser wrote:
However, there is a reason why there are no attacks against the Pakistan Army in Kashmir: they're not there. Pakistan controls its side of the LOC but isn't actively interfering in its portion of Kashmir anywhere near the level India is on its side.

You don't "interfere" on your side of a border. You have a right to be there and govern. India is not the only one active on it's side of the LOC. That much is clear.
 
VTORD
Posts: 521
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:51 pm

sturmovik wrote:

I do not worship the armed forces blindly to the point where I feel constrained in questioning their claims, and even their professional competence. That kind of blindness can lead us into becoming the sort of banana republic that our adversary across the border has become. Professional competence does not substitute for evidence. I'm looking at the facts I've read and heard, and in my head it does not add up, and I'm not beholden to the govt or the armed forces or the "rest of us" that you mention to the point that I have trouble stating what I think.

I agree. I will go a step further. I do not question the armed forces professional competence. As a citizen who did not volunteer for service, I find that unfair to do. But I have just enough skepticism to question the motive of the government that sends them on these missions. I know in today's India it has become customary to equate criticism of the Prime Minister to be criticism of the country but oh well....
 
freqyflyer
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:47 pm

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:38 am

In an interview with a Punjabi language radio station today, Pakistan's information Fawad Hussain did not deny the use of the F-16 during the recent skirmish with the Indian Air Force.

Extracted from the article:

Mr Hussain did not deny the use of the F-16 aircraft.

“We purchased them from America and didn’t get them in a grant. So we’ll decide where to deploy them. F-16 jets will be used for the purpose for which they are needed. But Insha’Allah, we hope that situation doesn’t arise,” he warned.

Link (article in English, interview in Punjabi):

https://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/pun ... n-minister
 
sonicruiser
Posts: 468
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:10 am

As a Pakistani, I have lost all hope for peace after looking at some of the responses on this thread. That is a tragedy. It breaks my heart that we gave back your pilot in just 2 days and could not get as much as a sincere willingness to start the peace process. There was no ill-will or political motivation for us to return your pilot that early. If anything, that puts us at weaker position but we are willing to do it to have peace between the countries. We did it because he has a family too and we hope that you would have the same respect for us.
 
freqyflyer
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:47 pm

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:55 am

sonicruiser wrote:
As a Pakistani, I have lost all hope for peace after looking at some of the responses on this thread. That is a tragedy. It breaks my heart that we gave back your pilot in just 2 days and could not get as much as a sincere willingness to start the peace process. There was no ill-will or political motivation for us to return your pilot that early. If anything, that puts us at weaker position but we are willing to do it to have peace between the countries. We did it because he has a family too and we hope that you would have the same respect for us.


I sense a geopolitical shift in India's favor that does not bode well for Pakistan. It involves the US, major European Powers and the Arabs. Israel too but as usual a silent but very vital partner. Russia as always.

Unless India oversteps its bounds and is the first to target civilians and civil assets, it's been given both latitude and time. You will notice that there is no shuttle diplomacy this time around. Today's OIC embarassment was another sign, especially since Pakistan is a founding member of that organization. China's support of Pakistan is more half-hearted than ever before. Besides, China is much too distracted at the moment.

Modi 1 is almost over but Modi 2 is just around the corner. In any case, India has a history of fairly good continuity regardless of who is in power.

Therefore, I hope Imran Khan does what it takes to put the jihadi genie permanently back in the box. That will not only help diffuse the situation, but will also help Pakistan move back from the financial precipice and on to a path towards solvency and progress. Remember, no money, no honey. If the military lets IK do what's needed and if the effort is indeed sincere and lasting (and oh, we know when we are being scammed) then normalization of p to p relations will happen very quickly. Trade - which is low hanging fruit that's never been plucked - will grow exponentially to the benefit of both. Tourism will go through the roof. We can finally go from being antagonistic to being friends.

That's my conjecture. Way too many slips possible between the cup and the lips
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:44 am

freqyflyer wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
As a Pakistani, I have lost all hope for peace after looking at some of the responses on this thread. That is a tragedy. It breaks my heart that we gave back your pilot in just 2 days and could not get as much as a sincere willingness to start the peace process. There was no ill-will or political motivation for us to return your pilot that early. If anything, that puts us at weaker position but we are willing to do it to have peace between the countries. We did it because he has a family too and we hope that you would have the same respect for us.


I sense a geopolitical shift in India's favor that does not bode well for Pakistan. It involves the US, major European Powers and the Arabs. Israel too but as usual a silent but very vital partner. Russia as always.

Unless India oversteps its bounds and is the first to target civilians and civil assets, it's been given both latitude and time. You will notice that there is no shuttle diplomacy this time around. Today's OIC embarassment was another sign, especially since Pakistan is a founding member of that organization. China's support of Pakistan is more half-hearted than ever before. Besides, China is much too distracted at the moment.

Modi 1 is almost over but Modi 2 is just around the corner. In any case, India has a history of fairly good continuity regardless of who is in power.

Therefore, I hope Imran Khan does what it takes to put the jihadi genie permanently back in the box. That will not only help diffuse the situation, but will also help Pakistan move back from the financial precipice and on to a path towards solvency and progress. Remember, no money, no honey. If the military lets IK do what's needed and if the effort is indeed sincere and lasting (and oh, we know when we are being scammed) then normalization of p to p relations will happen very quickly. Trade - which is low hanging fruit that's never been plucked - will grow exponentially to the benefit of both. Tourism will go through the roof. We can finally go from being antagonistic to being friends.

That's my conjecture. Way too many slips possible between the cup and the lips


Yeah Yeah Yeah man, India the perfect country around the world, solve your human right issues on way how Kashmiri's are treated. Instead realizing IK speech etc, and applauding him, and other minister about that they want peace with Pakistan, you guys want to act blind as always, was embarrassment too, your PM Modi also committed crimes in Gujrat and wasn't allowed into certain countries due to that, your political system right now is disputed right now on the whole Pulwama attack, and all the Pakistan political parties are all on one side, no one is disputed, we had your pilot, and still have your ex navy officer who's admitted to causing ruckus in India. Of course the media around the World is going to feed certain propaganda, you failed to highlight how no one really sided with India, same countries that called India also called Pakistan, including Russia. Pakistan went in and closed the "terror camp," India said, they sent their troops took occupation of it, when Pakistan was going through bit ruckus due to Christian women being free from court due to blasphemous law, PM Imran Khan arrest the leader of that political party as he was threat to our development. You fail to mention your media embarrassment, how they keep on behaving feeding billion plus people on such rhetoric, not showing the return of the solider as message of peace or descalation. It pitty we have country next to us who is split politically, and orchestra such attacks to make another movie or win votes, keeps allowing the media to feed it people this cow dung claims. You forgot about the train attack to between Lahore & Delhi, who was behind that.

Even FM of Pakistan, thanked Donald Trump on his support towards Pakistan.

Instead look why people in Kashmir are hating on the Indian army? Probably due to the harsh environment, the rapping of women, the attacks, the brutality the kashmiri face. You guys treat low caste hindus the same, you treated sikhs the same, and as well Christians in the south, the western media doesn't report it about it all time, but it happens, and people know!

Pakistan has it own issues etc, I don't why India or Indians, love to keep meddling in our politics, you guys even post our local news, and elections, and we don't even care about yours except sports or film.

Maybe if you listen to Imran Khan speech since his day 1 in the office of making peace, prosperity, and didn't cancel your meeting last minute with Pakistan.

Pakistan geo-strategically important, so stop acting like we are the nation of Akhbazia or something.

I can remember days of BA announcement, and other Pakistan threads, it always turns to Pakistan bashing topic, cause by the same people on this forum who just act blind for no reason, and act double sided, or haven't even visited the country.

This topic is about air space closure, but certain people got drunk off of cow dung, and had to show their true colors. It a pitty to see such behavior constantly on this is a forum. Travel/aviation, you have to learn understand, and respect all, not keep belittling people on every corner. Please tell me on the India aviation thread, some Pakistani is hating? You probably won't find any. Some you guys, comments have been removed in the past on topics that concerned with Pakistan, not gunna call out certain usernames, but they're on this thread too.

If Trump behaved like PM Modi did now, or how the Indian media acted, then you guys would all laugh at him, irony of it.

BBC, Reuters, NY Times, Washington Post all showing India bamboozled, and their war mongering media!

Again, Stop being so double sided!
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:25 am

sonicruiser wrote:
As a Pakistani, I have lost all hope for peace after looking at some of the responses on this thread. That is a tragedy. It breaks my heart that we gave back your pilot in just 2 days and could not get as much as a sincere willingness to start the peace process. There was no ill-will or political motivation for us to return your pilot that early. If anything, that puts us at weaker position but we are willing to do it to have peace between the countries. We did it because he has a family too and we hope that you would have the same respect for us.


It okay man, I feel your sense of pain. Though don't want to realize the double standards, just look at this report that came out before Pulwama, and how it caused ruckus in it own country.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/i ... 59876.html
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2578
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:49 am

Now that Pakistan has been cowered into returning WC Abhinanadan, the developments along the LoC indicate that there will be no let up in pressure from the Indian side. Refreshing to see an Indian regime that is willing to call the bluff of Pakistanis.

Pakistani media reporting that more than 30 people were killed in PoK last night by Indian shelling
https://twitter.com/iihtishamm/status/1 ... 3675d8%2F0
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:16 am

unrave wrote:
Now that Pakistan has been cowered into returning WC Abhinanadan, the developments along the LoC indicates that there will be no let up in pressure from the Indian side. Refreshing to see an Indian regime that is willing to call the bluff of Pakistanis.


Sense of your rubish, will get your no where. Unfortunately your government is split. The Pakistani government from all parties, all applauded PM Khan, on other hand, you guys are split. Even my Indian friends no what kind of rubish their government is doing. As, said you guys can spot who stealing a little bit more of cow dung, but can't spot pulwama attack.

Even Microsoft caught India in the red zone. King of Jordan, Turkey Premier, KSA, USA, China, and other nations have applauded Pakistan, including some Indian politicians.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/i ... 59876.html


The day India realizes it internal flaws, the day peace can be started. Not surprise even Nehru was a foe trying to lure Mountbatten wife.

You guys even treat African descent Indians that live in gujrat, pretty badly as well.

Even Trump realized PM Khan was right about the taliban..... Says a lot mate, our PM Khan hosted Princess Diana before he got into political fame, says a lot of what type of PM we have. Watching your media channels blaze with hate, and way they have 10 people talk at once, and argue. I guess small minds thinks it makes them win arguments, by shouting constantly. How are we suppose to make peace with people who behave such manner? All Pakistani politicians from all sides are saying show us the proof? Instead of just attacking blaming Pakistan claiming to kill 300 terrorist, where are the bodies? You guys looked like idiots, we captured your Pilot, back in 1960s our Pilot shot down 5 Indian jets in the air within 1 min or so. Without billion people, no one would care for India, though Pakistan has it brother nations Turkey, KSA, China, who have been by our side ever since, even Russia contacted us, even Russia interested in our CPEC project, and did military exercise with us, and Russian delegation/businessmen visited our country recently.

PIA is only airline operating flights between the two countries.

You guys even reject our sportsman for competition in your country, the Olympic committee embarrassed you guys.

Let talk recently, tell us since PM Khan came to office, has Pakistani establishment harm India, or made comments like you did to us, up, and till Pulwama you guys have caused border firing, canceled meeting with us for no reason, caused the Chinese consulate attack, which we didn't go, and attack your country or make viscous threats, and your politicians and military have recklessly made comments about us...


If anyone wants to make peace with Pakistan in India like Navjhot Sidhu, India kept emphasizing to label him as a traitor to India.

Pretty sure tomorrow if PM Khan or even any Pakistani Premier/celebrity was in front of you, you would run take pics, act so sweet towards them.
 
User avatar
unrave
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:20 am

I can't make head nor tail of that long winded rant above. Anyway even the OIC has picked India or Pakistan this time. So much for the ummah.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
sonicruiser
Posts: 468
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Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:36 am

LH658 wrote:
Sense of your rubish, will get your no where. Unfortunately your government is split. The Pakistani government from all parties, all applauded PM Khan, on other hand, you guys are split. Even my Indian friends no what kind of rubish their government is doing. As, said you guys can spot who stealing a little bit more of cow dung, but can't spot pulwama attack.

Even Microsoft caught India in the red zone. King of Jordan, Turkey Premier, KSA, USA, China, and other nations have applauded Pakistan, including some Indian politicians.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/i ... 59876.html


The day India realizes it internal flaws, the day peace can be started. Not surprise even Nehru was a foe trying to lure Mountbatten wife.

You guys even treat African descent Indians that live in gujrat, pretty badly as well.

Even Trump realized PM Khan was right about the taliban..... Says a lot mate, our PM Khan hosted Princess Diana before he got into political fame, says a lot of what type of PM we have. Watching your media channels blaze with hate, and way they have 10 people talk at once, and argue. I guess small minds thinks it makes them win arguments, by shouting constantly. How are we suppose to make peace with people who behave such manner? All Pakistani politicians from all sides are saying show us the proof? Instead of just attacking blaming Pakistan claiming to kill 300 terrorist, where are the bodies? You guys looked like idiots, we captured your Pilot, back in 1960s our Pilot shot down 5 Indian jets in the air within 1 min or so. Without billion people, no one would care for India, though Pakistan has it brother nations Turkey, KSA, China, who have been by our side ever since, even Russia contacted us, even Russia interested in our CPEC project, and did military exercise with us, and Russian delegation/businessmen visited our country recently.

PIA is only airline operating flights between the two countries.

You guys even reject our sportsman for competition in your country, the Olympic committee embarrassed you guys.

Let talk recently, tell us since PM Khan came to office, has Pakistani establishment harm India, or made comments like you did to us, up, and till Pulwama you guys have caused border firing, canceled meeting with us for no reason, caused the Chinese consulate attack, which we didn't go, and attack your country or make viscous threats, and your politicians and military have recklessly made comments about us...


If anyone wants to make peace with Pakistan in India like Navjhot Sidhu, India kept emphasizing to label him as a traitor to India.

Pretty sure tomorrow if PM Khan or even any Pakistani Premier/celebrity was in front of you, you would run take pics, act so sweet towards them.


You are absolutely right. For years India has been treating us like poison, now it is our turn to treat them like snakes. I have no regrets about trying for peace because it was worth a shot if worked out. Peace is always the better option. But if they don't want peace, neither should we. Shoot down every Indian plane that comes into our territory and permanently ban their aircraft from our airspace.
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:16 am

sonicruiser wrote:
LH658 wrote:
Sense of your rubish, will get your no where. Unfortunately your government is split. The Pakistani government from all parties, all applauded PM Khan, on other hand, you guys are split. Even my Indian friends no what kind of rubish their government is doing. As, said you guys can spot who stealing a little bit more of cow dung, but can't spot pulwama attack.

Even Microsoft caught India in the red zone. King of Jordan, Turkey Premier, KSA, USA, China, and other nations have applauded Pakistan, including some Indian politicians.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/i ... 59876.html


The day India realizes it internal flaws, the day peace can be started. Not surprise even Nehru was a foe trying to lure Mountbatten wife.

You guys even treat African descent Indians that live in gujrat, pretty badly as well.

Even Trump realized PM Khan was right about the taliban..... Says a lot mate, our PM Khan hosted Princess Diana before he got into political fame, says a lot of what type of PM we have. Watching your media channels blaze with hate, and way they have 10 people talk at once, and argue. I guess small minds thinks it makes them win arguments, by shouting constantly. How are we suppose to make peace with people who behave such manner? All Pakistani politicians from all sides are saying show us the proof? Instead of just attacking blaming Pakistan claiming to kill 300 terrorist, where are the bodies? You guys looked like idiots, we captured your Pilot, back in 1960s our Pilot shot down 5 Indian jets in the air within 1 min or so. Without billion people, no one would care for India, though Pakistan has it brother nations Turkey, KSA, China, who have been by our side ever since, even Russia contacted us, even Russia interested in our CPEC project, and did military exercise with us, and Russian delegation/businessmen visited our country recently.

PIA is only airline operating flights between the two countries.

You guys even reject our sportsman for competition in your country, the Olympic committee embarrassed you guys.

Let talk recently, tell us since PM Khan came to office, has Pakistani establishment harm India, or made comments like you did to us, up, and till Pulwama you guys have caused border firing, canceled meeting with us for no reason, caused the Chinese consulate attack, which we didn't go, and attack your country or make viscous threats, and your politicians and military have recklessly made comments about us...


If anyone wants to make peace with Pakistan in India like Navjhot Sidhu, India kept emphasizing to label him as a traitor to India.

Pretty sure tomorrow if PM Khan or even any Pakistani Premier/celebrity was in front of you, you would run take pics, act so sweet towards them.


You are absolutely right. For years India has been treating us like poison, now it is our turn to treat them like snakes. I have no regrets about trying for peace because it was worth a shot if worked out. Peace is always the better option. But if they don't want peace, neither should we. Shoot down every Indian plane that comes into our territory and permanently ban their aircraft from our airspace.


I don't agree with the last part, but i can hear your frustration, as through the years you kept a respectful stance towards others, and gave Pakistan a positive recognition, by suggesting routes, or informing/educating the rest of the community of Aviation news in PK. Though constantly being belittled, by certain people who are being double sided can be upsetting. Though violence isn't the way, blocking air space is non violent which is fine, and up to the Pakistani government on what they want to do. Though yeah I feel your pain, how blind people can behave on such forum about traveling, and aviation, which involves learning, professionalism, & respecting others.
 
VTORD
Posts: 521
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:37 am

LH658 wrote:

Yeah Yeah Yeah man, India the perfect country around the world, solve your human right issues on way how Kashmiri's are treated. Instead realizing IK speech etc, and applauding him, and other minister about that they want peace with Pakistan, you guys want to act blind as always, was embarrassment too

India is far from perfect and most Indians will admit to our shortcomings in Kashmir but I am essentially trying to point out the notion being peddled that PK is somehow this messiah of peace in this whole episode in the face of decades worth of evidence. And if you had taken the trouble to actually follow Indian media / social media you would have found how widely cheered Imran Khan's "peace gesture" was until your army pulled that stunt with the second video. There are literally people whose twitter timelines are filled with abuse after abuse because they have a counter view about Kashmir and Pakistan which prescribes to reconciliation. But for that you would need to actually pay attention to the news.

LH658 wrote:
your political system right now is disputed right now on the whole Pulwama attack, and all the Pakistan political parties are all on one side, no one is disputed

And that is why India is a functioning pluralist democracy with free and fair elections in which the army doesn't interfere to control the PM. [/quote]

LH658 wrote:
Pakistan went in and closed the "terror camp," India said, they sent their troops took occupation of it,

Huh?

LH658 wrote:
Even FM of Pakistan, thanked Donald Trump on his support towards Pakistan.

I wouldn't take DT at face value. He has been known to provide contradictory statements (mostly incoherent) in the space of the same question so if I was you, I would really not use that as any sort of victory.

LH658 wrote:
Instead look why people in Kashmir are hating on the Indian army? Probably due to the harsh environment, the rapping of women, the attacks, the brutality the kashmiri face. You guys treat low caste hindus the same, you treated sikhs the same, and as well Christians in the south, the western media doesn't report it about it all time, but it happens, and people know!

But the Indian media does and does so very frequently. How does it matter if the NYT writes about it if no one in India reads the NYT? Those are India's problems for which awareness needs to be raised in India not DC for God sake!

LH658 wrote:
This topic is about air space closure, but certain people got drunk off of cow dung, and had to show their true colors.

If Trump behaved like PM Modi did now, or how the Indian media acted, then you guys would all laugh at him, irony of it.

BBC, Reuters, NY Times, Washington Post all showing India bamboozled, and their war mongering media!

Again, Stop being so double sided!

1. Did you really expect a thread on airspace closure directly related to an air-to-air armed incident between India and Pakistan to not get political?
2. I actually agree with you about that Trump - Modi point
3. NY Times is not exactly the beacon of balanced reporting that people think it is.
4. Again I agree but it's a 2-way street.
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:27 am

VTORD wrote:
LH658 wrote:

Yeah Yeah Yeah man, India the perfect country around the world, solve your human right issues on way how Kashmiri's are treated. Instead realizing IK speech etc, and applauding him, and other minister about that they want peace with Pakistan, you guys want to act blind as always, was embarrassment too

India is far from perfect and most Indians will admit to our shortcomings in Kashmir but I am essentially trying to point out the notion being peddled that PK is somehow this messiah of peace in this whole episode in the face of decades worth of evidence. And if you had taken the trouble to actually follow Indian media / social media you would have found how widely cheered Imran Khan's "peace gesture" was until your army pulled that stunt with the second video. There are literally people whose twitter timelines are filled with abuse after abuse because they have a counter view about Kashmir and Pakistan which prescribes to reconciliation. But for that you would need to actually pay attention to the news.

LH658 wrote:
your political system right now is disputed right now on the whole Pulwama attack, and all the Pakistan political parties are all on one side, no one is disputed

And that is why India is a functioning pluralist democracy with free and fair elections in which the army doesn't interfere to control the PM.


LH658 wrote:
Pakistan went in and closed the "terror camp," India said, they sent their troops took occupation of it,

Huh?

LH658 wrote:
Even FM of Pakistan, thanked Donald Trump on his support towards Pakistan.

I wouldn't take DT at face value. He has been known to provide contradictory statements (mostly incoherent) in the space of the same question so if I was you, I would really not use that as any sort of victory.

LH658 wrote:
Instead look why people in Kashmir are hating on the Indian army? Probably due to the harsh environment, the rapping of women, the attacks, the brutality the kashmiri face. You guys treat low caste hindus the same, you treated sikhs the same, and as well Christians in the south, the western media doesn't report it about it all time, but it happens, and people know!

But the Indian media does and does so very frequently. How does it matter if the NYT writes about it if no one in India reads the NYT? Those are India's problems for which awareness needs to be raised in India not DC for God sake!

LH658 wrote:
This topic is about air space closure, but certain people got drunk off of cow dung, and had to show their true colors.

If Trump behaved like PM Modi did now, or how the Indian media acted, then you guys would all laugh at him, irony of it.

BBC, Reuters, NY Times, Washington Post all showing India bamboozled, and their war mongering media!

Again, Stop being so double sided!

1. Did you really expect a thread on airspace closure directly related to an air-to-air armed incident between India and Pakistan to not get political?
2. I actually agree with you about that Trump - Modi point
3. NY Times is not exactly the beacon of balanced reporting that people think it is.
4. Again I agree but it's a 2-way street.[/quote]


Point is that Trump is the highest serving servant in USA, and he gave his statement, other minister of the USA also been in talks with Pakistan as well.

Some individuals on here think their government or country is flawless, and want to paint Pakistan as the bad man, though in today whenever Western Media covers a topic it becomes official, that's just a norm now days. The guys above want to show BBC, NBC, ABC, and etc articles about Pakistan, to show that Pakistan is a threat.

If the military wants to interfere or not in Pakistan, that's Pakistan deal, the point is all political parties had a parliament session, and agreed with PM Khan. I mean whats so hard to appreciate Pakistan about that? India politics is split cause people know this is a politically motivated stunt by PM Modi, to capture the next election.

India mention about this terror group operating in PK, well India said they have huge presence in Bahawalpur, the Army has came, and taken over that so called compound, another example the is their was another Far Right Islamic party that was causing ruckus in our country right after the election, and they were attacking shops etc, Pakistan PM Khan ended that movement, and locked up their leader, and those who participated in causing violence. Though where are the 300 terrorist that India killed? It not their at all, fake news by India claiming to kill 300 terrorist inside Pakistan.

What video are you talking about? and Yes i have been keeping up with India media channel, and social media, Indians I know, some of them know that this is just stunt by PM Modi, and some side with their country, but respectfully showing respect towards Pakistan, the gesture of return the pilot regardless of whatever rule. Pakistan PM speech has been calm, and fair, and so has other leaders, and media, compared to India counter parts.

Lets talk recent, forget the past. That's what PM Khan been doing with all their friends or foes. Telling them forget the past this a new regime, new government, this election just pass last year was historic election for the country. PM Khan since day 1 been trying to make talks with India.
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2578
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:41 pm

Uncle Sam wants to know more about Pakistan's misuse of F16s
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 229586.cms
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
freqyflyer
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:47 pm

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:51 pm

I stopped reading the Rant at Mountbatten and Nehru. Sounded like cliff notes from a Karachi high school.

The issue is not all the flaws of any particular country. The issue is sponsorship of terrorists and insurgents in order to impart another country "a thousand cuts". You should expect an occasional cut back with accumulated compound interest.

Pakistani inflation hit a 4 year high today. Further drop in currency imminent which will spur further inflation. Not a good picture.
 
sonicruiser
Posts: 468
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 am

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:31 pm

unrave wrote:
Uncle Sam wants to know more about Pakistan's misuse of F16s
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 229586.cms


Not only did we use our F16's, but we will do it again.

As for your imaginary F16's, well good luck getting that factory of yours after pretending to shoot one down.
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2578
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:56 pm

freqyflyer wrote:
I stopped reading the Rant at Mountbatten and Nehru. Sounded like cliff notes from a Karachi high school.

The issue is not all the flaws of any particular country. The issue is sponsorship of terrorists and insurgents in order to impart another country "a thousand cuts". You should expect an occasional cut back with accumulated compound interest.

Pakistani inflation hit a 4 year high today. Further drop in currency imminent which will spur further inflation. Not a good picture.

Yeah, that read like a comment copied from defence.pk forums.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2578
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:00 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
unrave wrote:
Uncle Sam wants to know more about Pakistan's misuse of F16s
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 229586.cms


Not only did we use our F16's, but we will do it again.

As for your imaginary F16's, well good luck getting that factory of yours after pretending to shoot one down.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Did you read LM response to that tweet?
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
sonicruiser
Posts: 468
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 am

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:09 pm

unrave wrote:
Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Did you read LM response to that tweet?


Well the truth speaks for itself. Pakistan has F-16's and India doesn't.
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2578
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:15 pm

sonicruiser wrote:


Well the truth speaks for itself. Pakistan has F-16's and India doesn't.

I hope you are aware that F16 is not the only fighter jet in the world?
Last edited by unrave on Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
golfradio
Posts: 892
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:35 pm

Re: Parts of Indian and Pakistani airspace closed after multiple shootdowns

Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:16 pm

In Pakistan, the tail wags the dog. The civilian government does not control the military. It's the military that controls the civilian government including its state and foreign policy.

The Pakistani military is rogue and corrupt. In Pakistan's 72 year history only 31 of those had a civilian head of state. And even those were titular. They were either proxies of the Pakistani military or were completely blind to the activities of the GHQ. Either the civilian tows the military line or they are simply replaced.

Now the Pakistani military establishment sucks up a bug chunk of the country's GDP. For 2018-2019, the military's budget is USD 9.5 billion. How do they retain and justify their stronghold on the country? Create a bogeyman (India is convenient), rewrite the history and the narrative, spread misinformation via the education system and use propaganda to keep the population galvanized in their support to keep military relevant and in control.

Don't know how many here are familiar with Dr. Christine Fair. She has extensively studied South Asia in general and Pakistan in particular. To understand the psyche of the Pakistani military have a listen through her talk here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjnrETPDuls

It is long but an interesting watch.

Now Kashmir keeps coming up in forums time and again. The Pakistani history as taught and written in its education system is conveniently altered and used to mislead generation after generation.

I can't do a better job than Dr. Christine Fair or Mr Tarek Fatah, in explaining why Pakistan's position on Kashmir has no merit. So if interested please educate yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYmMikj_jLI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPpft6gU3GA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ns4r08kZ9k
CSeries forever. Bring back the old site.
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