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Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:16 pm

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/02/te ... ay-for-it/ discusses the new $35k Standard Range and $37k Standard Range Plus automobiles, and describes how AutoPilot is now positioned a bit differently:

Surprisingly, Tesla has restored the "Full Self Driving" option to its cars. However, $5,000 (or $7,000 after delivery) does not buy a level 4 autonomous vehicle. Instead, FSD is now defined as the Navigate on Autopilot, Autopark, and Summon functions, some of which have been available until now as part of the "Enhanced Autopilot." (Summon appears to have been enhanced according to the description.) Tesla's website also says that the ability to "recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs" is coming later this year, as well as "automatic driving on city streets."

Yet to me the lead story should be:

However, these new, cheaper Teslas come at a cost. Tesla also announced that it is now moving to an entirely online sales model and will be shuttering most of its retail locations in the US. "Going to online only is incredibly helpful to us; in many parts of the US, we're unable to sell cars because of franchise laws. This substantially opens up our ability to buy cars. It's 2019—people want to buy stuff online," Musk said.

That means job losses. "There's no other way for us to achieve the savings required to produce this car and still remain profitable. There's no way around it,
" Musk said. However, when asked about the number or timing of job losses, Musk would not be drawn into details and dismissed the question as "not today's topic."

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that Tesla can get away with online only. My thoughts were that I was to buy a Tesla I certainly would test drive all the models to see which one I wanted. Buying a car online is not the same as using Amazon to buy a USB cable for your phone.

On the other hand, I've heard Tesla is terrible at customer service. You never get the same story twice. People end up waiting months to get Teslas fixed due to the lack of spare parts and the internal mess that is Tesla's customer service. Therefore part of the calculus might be that they suck at it so they might as well shut it down.

And I've read that closing the stores will be the kiss of death for Solar City.

So, it's all to me a sign that both Telsa and Solar City are under duress, and it would not surprise me if we see either or both sold off so Elon can focus on SpaceX where his customers are governments and corporations and he doesn't have to deal with the challenges of dealing with the public marketplace.
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Dutchy
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3,

Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:22 pm

We'll see. I think it is a good thing you could buy them for $US 35.000. I would buy one immediately if that was the price in The Netherlands, but it is 2,5times that, it is for the longe range model (€ 55.000plus), but still.
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:44 pm

Revelation wrote:
I'm not sure I agree with the idea that Tesla can get away with online only. My thoughts were that I was to buy a Tesla I certainly would test drive all the models to see which one I wanted. Buying a car online is not the same as using Amazon to buy a USB cable for your phone.

As I understand it, test drives will be at your house (or address of your choosing) along with regular monthly test drive meet ups. So anyone who wants to test drive before buying can do so. Of course right now word of mouth and friends along with "I want that car!" are what is really doing the selling.

The huge advantage Tesla has right now is that are the only real mover in their space, there is no other real competition. Some are trying to get close but none of the competitors are there yet.

Tugg
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:40 pm

Tugger wrote:
As I understand it, test drives will be at your house (or address of your choosing) along with monthly test drive meet up. So anyone who wants to test drive before buying can do so. Of course right now word of mouth and friends along with "I want that car!" are what is really doing the selling.

Thanks for the info on the test drives, etc. I hadn't seen any info like that so far.

Unfortunately it does not address how to get the car serviced, unless they plan to drive a truck with a full service bay to people's houses.

Drones that could fly parts from a central warehouse to the customer site would also come in handy.

The worst case is if your Tesla ends up in a collision. Stuff I've read said getting the required parts is very difficult.

All this says you better have a quote in hand for collision insurance and understand your service options before you sign up for a Tesla, IMHO.

Tugger wrote:
The huge advantage Tesla has right now is that are the only real mover in their space, there is no other real competition. Some are trying to get close but none of the competitors are there yet.

They are coming.

VW Group plans:

https://autoweek.com/article/green-cars ... re-product

Volkswagen I.D. Crozz, coming to USA next year, to be built in Chattanooga starting 2022:

https://newschannel9.com/news/auto-matt ... hattanooga

https://www.auto123.com/en/news/volkswa ... les/64188/

Image

Image
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Dieuwer
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3,

Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
We'll see. I think it is a good thing you could buy them for $US 35.000. I would buy one immediately if that was the price in The Netherlands, but it is 2,5times that, it is for the longe range model (€ 55.000plus), but still.


Can you buy one in the USA and ship it to Holland?
 
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:14 pm

The car wouldn't be homologated. Also Tesla's are communicating with the company all the time for the warranty, services etc., so you would probably lose that. You'd have to pay the VAT, and 10% tariff.
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:18 pm

Aesma wrote:
The car wouldn't be homologated. Also Tesla's are communicating with the company all the time for the warranty, services etc., so you would probably lose that. You'd have to pay the VAT, and 10% tariff.


Exactly, so it doesn't work like that. Tesla isn't making the Tesla 3 more expensive in the Netherlands because they can, but it is all the tariffs and other local regulations what makes it more expensive.
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:22 pm

I looked at Tesla's French site, and I can get the car (long range AWD, the other being the performance, more expensive), without any option (which are expensive), for 50300€, thanks to a 6000€ government grant for electric cars.

Personally one of the reasons I would buy one is the technology, so I'd have to add 8500€ for the full autopilot (that I think is completely illegal in France, but they sell it anyway).

Clearly out of my means.
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:26 pm

Revelation wrote:
Thanks for the info on the test drives, etc. I hadn't seen any info like that so far.


From the Tesla webside, so apparently you can do this: "If you haven't test driven the car, you can return it within 7 days or 1,000 miles, whichever comes first."

So there are a lot of people whom order it and didn't testdrive it.
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:35 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Thanks for the info on the test drives, etc. I hadn't seen any info like that so far.


From the Tesla webside, so apparently you can do this: "If you haven't test driven the car, you can return it within 7 days or 1,000 miles, whichever comes first."

So there are a lot of people whom order it and didn't testdrive it.

No doubt. Right now Tesla is benefiting from having a large cadre of enthusiasts who own the cars and most of the sales are by word of mouth. It will be interesting when that enthusiasm wears out and they have to sell to people who are not already sold on the car, and when frustration about support and servicing becomes more apparent.

Hey, the halo effect could last a long time. It's been a dozen years since iPhone was first available. But you're talking about something that costs 35 to 110 times as much. People are going to be a lot more cautious about such a purchase. The traditional auto makers are sure to point out the problems with the Tesla model while talking up their own advantages. They have a revenue stream from their current product line and the utmost urgency to protect their standing in the auto industry. It should be interesting to watch.

As for me, I'm rocking a 2005 vintage gasser and happy to be out of the fray, but know I'm just one bad repair bill away from needing to move on in a hurry.
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:44 pm

Revelation wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Thanks for the info on the test drives, etc. I hadn't seen any info like that so far.


From the Tesla webside, so apparently you can do this: "If you haven't test driven the car, you can return it within 7 days or 1,000 miles, whichever comes first."

So there are a lot of people whom order it and didn't testdrive it.

No doubt. Right now Tesla is benefiting from having a large cadre of enthusiasts who own the cars and most of the sales are by word of mouth. It will be interesting when that enthusiasm wears out and they have to sell to people who are not already sold on the car, and when frustration about support and servicing becomes more apparent.

Hey, the halo effect could last a long time. It's been a dozen years since iPhone was first available. But you're talking about something that costs 35 to 110 times as much. People are going to be a lot more cautious about such a purchase. The traditional auto makers are sure to point out the problems with the Tesla model while talking up their own advantages. They have a revenue stream from their current product line and the utmost urgency to protect their standing in the auto industry. It should be interesting to watch.

As for me, I'm rocking a 2005 vintage gasser and happy to be out of the fray, but know I'm just one bad repair bill away from needing to move on in a hurry.


I just made an appointment for a testdrive. Just want to know what the fuss is about. 8-)
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:50 pm

Revelation wrote:
Unfortunately it does not address how to get the car serviced, unless they plan to drive a truck with a full service bay to people's houses.

Drones that could fly parts from a central warehouse to the customer site would also come in handy.

The worst case is if your Tesla ends up in a collision. Stuff I've read said getting the required parts is very difficult.

All this says you better have a quote in hand for collision insurance and understand your service options before you sign up for a Tesla, IMHO.



The article only says retail locations, which I notice are mostly in malls or tiny storefronts in business districts and were nothing more than a place to check out and order your Tesla. These are the ones I suspect will be closing. Tesla does have combined showroom/service center locations and stand alone service centers, which probably will remain mainly for service, maybe also as a site a customer can have their car delivered to for pick up. They also do offer mobile service.
 
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I just made an appointment for a testdrive. Just want to know what the fuss is about. 8-)

My problem is if I did that I might decide I want one then I'd have to spend a lot of money I don't want to spend. I know myself too well. I like my current car a lot but something new and shiny could talk its way into my garage pretty easily.

ha763 wrote:
The article only says retail locations, which I notice are mostly in malls or tiny storefronts in business districts and were nothing more than a place to check out and order your Tesla. These are the ones I suspect will be closing. Tesla does have combined showroom/service center locations and stand alone service centers, which probably will remain mainly for service, maybe also as a site a customer can have their car delivered to for pick up. They also do offer mobile service.

Thanks for the info.

A little research says:

Tesla said in a recent securities filing that while it will wind down many of its stores, there will be “a small number of stores in high-traffic locations remaining as galleries, showcases and Tesla information centers.”

Ref: https://www.bizjournals.com/boston/news ... tores.html

And:

Meanwhile, Tesla plans to hire more service technicians, or mechanics, Musk noted during a call with reporters Thursday. Tesla didn’t provide details on how many mechanics it plans to hire.

In order to mitigate the need for a test ride, Tesla is extending the return policies on its vehicles. New customers will be able own a car for a week and drive for 1,000 miles and still return it for a full refund if they don’t like it, Musk said.

“That’s why we’re going to essentially allow somebody to use the car for free for a week, and return it for a full refund,” Musk said. “And we’re going to make it super easy to get a refund, like one-click refund.”

Ref: https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/28/tesla ... -strategy/
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:25 pm

Tugger wrote:

The huge advantage Tesla has right now is that are the only real mover in their space, there is no other real competition. Some are trying to get close but none of the competitors are there yet.

Tugg


Go talk to Nissan I think you’ll find they disagree with you, the Leaf is the world most popular BEV. The Tesla is a poor quality overpriced vehicle, with a terrible reliability issue. Everyone I know who owns one has had some pretty significant issues.
Last edited by Kiwirob on Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:28 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
The Tesla is poor quality overpriced vehicle.

There are some issues with Tesla quality:

Tesla’s Model 3 loses coveted Consumer Reports recommendation

Owner survey finds issues with paint and trim, cracked windows, and touchscreen.

Ref: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/02/te ... mendation/
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:36 pm

The Falcon doors have serious alignment issues as well. They don’t close properly and scrap the paint off the edges. The rear pop up spoiler also has figment issues, you’ll see a lot of them that won’t retract fully.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:34 pm

Actually the Model 3 has breezed past the Leaf and sold 50% more than it in 2018.
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:24 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:

The huge advantage Tesla has right now is that are the only real mover in their space, there is no other real competition. Some are trying to get close but none of the competitors are there yet.

Tugg


Go talk to Nissan I think you’ll find they disagree with you, the Leaf is the world most popular BEV. The Tesla is a poor quality overpriced vehicle, with a terrible reliability issue. Everyone I know who owns one has had some pretty significant issues.

Cute. As I said, there is no real competition.
The LEAF is a good competitor but not close in current sales:
Looking at YTD figures for the LEAF we note that cumulative sales for all of 2018 stand at 14,715, which is a decent improvement the total of 11,230 sold in 2017. But still, that’s a disappointment if you consider that in the best of times (2014 ) LEAF sales hit upwards of 30,000 units in a single year.

https://insideevs.com/nissan-leaf-sales-december-2018/

The YTD tally is in now too for the Model 3. That figure for all of 2018 checks in at stands at 139,782. Cumulative sales now stand at 141,546, which is way higher than all of the plug-in vehicles sold in the U.S. in 2015.

The highest previous volume of sales ever for an electric car in a single year was back in 2014 when LEAF sales hit 30,200, so the Model 3 obliterated that record and almost matched that number in a single month.

https://insideevs.com/tesla-model-3-sal ... mber-2018/

Or in "mindshare" and "Everyone I know who owns one" is just anecdotal, so meaningless (can I share my stories of my friends that own/have owned a LEAF, that like it but no longer want to have one due to the limitations, the problems, and the lack of support after the sale that they experienced?).

However I can't deny that this site does find the LEAF to be better than the Model 3:
https://www.asburyauto.com/compare/2019 ... l-3/160286

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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:40 am

You're only considering the US market, a mistake which most Americans fall into, there is a whole world outside the US, in that greater market the Leaf is the world's biggest selling BEV. Nissan will launch a Leaf with extended range this year.
 
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:38 am

I was talking about world sales. Numbers aren't that easy to find but from what I see the Model 3 has sold more in 2018 than the Nissan Leaf.
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:24 am

Aesma wrote:
Actually the Model 3 has breezed past the Leaf and sold 50% more than it in 2018.


What about deliveries?
buying a Leaf is easy. More or less "take away" :-)
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:27 pm

The delivery/service centers aren't closing. The 'stores' are in shopping malls where as the delivery/service centers are like any other auto dealer lot. I ordered my car online even though I was im contact with my local delivery center.
 
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:59 pm

drew777 wrote:
The delivery/service centers aren't closing. The 'stores' are in shopping malls where as the delivery/service centers are like any other auto dealer lot. I ordered my car online even though I was im contact with my local delivery center.

Thanks for the clarification.

Personally I think Tesla did a bad PR job on this announcement.

They may have understood what was meant by "store" but given they are a mostly online business when they said they were closing its stores it wasn't clear to the general public what they were going to close, be it retail outlets, delivery centers, service centers, etc.
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:26 pm

Aesma wrote:
The car wouldn't be homologated. Also Tesla's are communicating with the company all the time for the warranty, services etc., so you would probably lose that. You'd have to pay the VAT, and 10% tariff.


One would assume for nearly twice the price in the EU, your Tesla would be nearly twice as good, but, alas, not so. Government, in this case, is not a value-added good.

GF
 
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:03 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The car wouldn't be homologated. Also Tesla's are communicating with the company all the time for the warranty, services etc., so you would probably lose that. You'd have to pay the VAT, and 10% tariff.


One would assume for nearly twice the price in the EU, your Tesla would be nearly twice as good, but, alas, not so. Government, in this case, is not a value-added good.

GF

As above, it seems VW is fixin' to provide some tariff free competition within the EU.

Other articles I've read is that VW will be forced to sell at the same price as carbon burners or less, because they need to offset the emissions of the carbon burners to meet EU emissions rules.

Basically carbon burners are going to subsidize the entry of cheap EVs.

Depending on where you sit, that is government provided value.

We live in interesting times.
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:12 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
One would assume for nearly twice the price in the EU, your Tesla would be nearly twice as good, but, alas, not so. Government, in this case, is not a value-added good.

What are the warranty conditions and other "fringe" properties in the US for the product?
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:30 pm

Revelation wrote:
I've heard Tesla is terrible at customer service. You never get the same story twice. People end up waiting months to get Teslas fixed due to the lack of spare parts and the internal mess that is Tesla's customer service.


Tesla is indeed awful at customer service. There are tons of YouTube videos of pissed off Tesla owners getting the runaround from Tesla, being stringed along, and told completely different things anytime they talk to somebody new. Their customer service is horribly inconsistent and information does not get passed along within the company.
 
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
Other articles I've read is that VW will be forced to sell at the same price as carbon burners or less, because they need to offset the emissions of the carbon burners to meet EU emissions rules.


More of a problem for Mercedes than VWAG, as they mostly sell smaller, rather fuel efficient vehicles.

The penalty is also not all that high, 95 EUR per g/CO2 over the limit times sold cars, so the subsidy volume is limited to 1-1.5 billion per year for the 4% they are expected to be over the limit. They got 230 billion in turnover....
Pushing LPG would yield enough reduction of the bat, they could put that in any gasoline vehicle free of charge with the penalty they safe, and then some.

But scaling production and supply for electric vehicles will cost a hell lot of money and so far it's mostly expensive low volume production. That they will have to subsidise in the beginning.

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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:16 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
More of a problem for Mercedes than VWAG, as they mostly sell smaller, rather fuel efficient vehicles.

The penalty is also not all that high, 95 EUR per g/CO2 over the limit times sold cars, so the subsidy volume is limited to 1-1.5 billion per year for the 4% they are expected to be over the limit. They got 230 billion in turnover....
Pushing LPG would yield enough reduction of the bat, they could put that in any gasoline vehicle free of charge with the penalty they safe, and then some.

But scaling production and supply for electric vehicles will cost a hell lot of money and so far it's mostly expensive low volume production. That they will have to subsidise in the beginning.

VWAG sells plenty of "crossover" SUVs and luxury/performance carbon burners, enough to make the offset an issue.

I do agree that MB and BMW have a worse situation, though.

VW has to address its terrible image after the diesel scandal.

The articles above names the factories that they are already retooling for the new EV platform.

I don't know about EU, but I don't see many places to get LPG nor do I see anyone building out an infrastructure to provide it.

On the other hand, I have EV charger parking spots where I work going back to 2010 or so.
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:19 pm

KentB27 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I've heard Tesla is terrible at customer service. You never get the same story twice. People end up waiting months to get Teslas fixed due to the lack of spare parts and the internal mess that is Tesla's customer service.


Tesla is indeed awful at customer service. There are tons of YouTube videos of pissed off Tesla owners getting the runaround from Tesla, being stringed along, and told completely different things anytime they talk to somebody new. Their customer service is horribly inconsistent and information does not get passed along within the company.

Huh, I know three Tesla owner's, two with a 3 and one with an S, and they have had nothing be great service from Tesla. They get updates regularly (though have mentioned how they can be at different times versus everyone getting them at the same time) and when they need something physical, the Tesla person comes by in their little Tesla van thing and takes care of the issue. The longest delay was the S owner having to wait two months for a new white seat. His had a small tear when it was delivered, it wasn't affecting anything and Tesla explained about the backlog and current demand going straight to production etc. He was annoyed but the item came when they said it would and he took it to the repair location and it was done in a day.

But like your post, this is just anecdotal.

Tugg
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:51 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Can you buy one in the USA and ship it to Holland?


You could but I bet the warranty would be voided. I know that is the case for a variety of manufactures. That would most certainly be the case for a GM, Ford or Chrysler. The same would be true if the car was bought in Europe and shipped here. You would also likely have to pay cash for it because most banks wouldn't want to give an auto loan to somebody taking the car to the other side of the Atlantic. It would make it too difficult for them to recover the vehicle if you defaulted on the loan.

Dutchy wrote:
rom the Tesla webside, so apparently you can do this: "If you haven't test driven the car, you can return it within 7 days or 1,000 miles, whichever comes first."

So there are a lot of people whom order it and didn't testdrive it.


Which may create a glut of used Teslas. When you make the purchase the car is transferred to you from the dealer (or in their case the manufacturer). The paperwork process begins within your state. If you wait six days and then return it you can't sell it again as a new car, because its been titled and registered to somebody.

Tugger wrote:
Or in "mindshare" and "Everyone I know who owns one" is just anecdotal, so meaningless (can I share my stories of my friends that own/have owned a LEAF, that like it but no longer want to have one due to the limitations, the problems, and the lack of support after the sale that they experienced?).


I have a friend who had one. He dumped it after a year because in the Detroit winter he couldn't get to his home in Plymouth and make it to church in downtown Detroit, and back on a charge, if he drove on the highway with the heat on. He didn't have any trouble with the car, just range issues in cold weather.

I think Tesla will eventually run into problems if they don't open something like a regular car dealership. Every other major car builder has a sales system different than Tesla and it works. Tesla has a lot of buyers who are techies and greenies who will buy the car because they want it no matter what. Tesla If they ever go mass market that model has to change. The average buyer isn't likely to make a big purchase online without driving it first. From a mechanic point of view you'd be surprised how much the average driver abuses their car. The amount of neglect I see on cars is insane and if Tesla sells to the mass market they will get those kinds of buyers and their "come to you" service model won't work out well.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:01 pm

We can hope most of those people in sales will be able to transfer over to service. OTOH, companies are always closing factories, downsizing work forces, outsourcing etc.

One of the better critical reviews of Tesla was that a lot of the manufacturing is not efficient, neither from design nor from process. In a way that could be a possible plus for Tesla. Newer models surely will improve, and previous ones will slowly redesigned ala the incremental improvements that Boeing and Airbus do. Costs of manufacturing need to come down. I imagine it will.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:39 pm

WIederling wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
One would assume for nearly twice the price in the EU, your Tesla would be nearly twice as good, but, alas, not so. Government, in this case, is not a value-added good.

What are the warranty conditions and other "fringe" properties in the US for the product?


Point being, in the US we pay for the car, virtually no tax other than state sales of 6%-ish; in the EU you’re paying almost twice the US price without any added value.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:46 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
WIederling wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
One would assume for nearly twice the price in the EU, your Tesla would be nearly twice as good, but, alas, not so. Government, in this case, is not a value-added good.

What are the warranty conditions and other "fringe" properties in the US for the product?


Point being, in the US we pay for the car, virtually no tax other than state sales of 6%-ish; in the EU you’re paying almost twice the US price without any added value.


Except for a better society at large :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:50 am

Revelation wrote:
VW has to address its terrible image after the diesel scandal.


While they got a bad image from it, sales numbers don´t reflect hat, not here, not in the US, not worldwide....

I don't know about EU, but I don't see many places to get LPG nor do I see anyone building out an infrastructure to provide it.

On the other hand, I have EV charger parking spots where I work going back to 2010 or so.


In most EU countries LPG availabity is pretty good, i drove an LPG powered car for 6 years or so, and you still do have a gasoline tank. For trips to Denmark for example.....

https://autotraveler.ru/en/spravka/lpg- ... H4NWihKiUk

It is usually a lot cheaper than gasoline, you get 10-13% CO2 reduction out the back, plus overall much cleaner exhaust w/o PM. And since LPG is essentially waster otherwise burned at the field if is more or less effectively CO2 emission free.

The articles above names the factories that they are already retooling for the new EV platform.


I am going to see lots of those on the railroad tracks around here in the future...

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Aesma
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:48 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The car wouldn't be homologated. Also Tesla's are communicating with the company all the time for the warranty, services etc., so you would probably lose that. You'd have to pay the VAT, and 10% tariff.


One would assume for nearly twice the price in the EU, your Tesla would be nearly twice as good, but, alas, not so. Government, in this case, is not a value-added good.

GF


Well the 10% tariff is a tariff, they're a popular tool these days.

The VAT is indeed a value-added tax, that finances many things people benefit from.

Finally, Telsa only selling their higher end models is probably a marketing decision, they knew the cheaper ones wouldn't be cheap enough to compete.

BTW, in the US you have cheap cars, yet you still manage to not be able to pay for them, to the point you're going to crash the world economy again with crappy loans again, for cars this time.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
WIederling
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:00 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
WIederling wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
One would assume for nearly twice the price in the EU, your Tesla would be nearly twice as good, but, alas, not so. Government, in this case, is not a value-added good.

What are the warranty conditions and other "fringe" properties in the US for the product?


Point being, in the US we pay for the car, virtually no tax other than state sales of 6%-ish; in the EU you’re paying almost twice the US price without any added value.


Well I see a net price of $45,000 for a model 3 dual motor with long range battery.
( 52.300€ - 19% VAT - 10% import tax @ .88€/$, alternate is "performance @ 63,000€ )
going over to the US "sales desk" shows the longrange dual motor model 3 @ $39,000
Murphy is an optimist
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:45 pm

Aesma wrote:
...
BTW, in the US you have cheap cars, yet you still manage to not be able to pay for them, to the point you're going to crash the world economy again with crappy loans again, for cars this time.


We have luxury cars at cheap prices, because of low labor costs, a gift of right-to-work rat race and time and again failed MRP processes which results in a fire sale.

The segment in question is irrelevant to sub-prime loans.

So, cheap luxury cars and sub-prime loans are two separate topics.
 
WIederling
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:02 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
e have luxury cars at cheap prices, because of low labor costs, a gift of right-to-work rat race and time and again failed MRP processes which results in a fire sale.


You have cheap cars that try to look like luxury cars.
proof: Low production cost does not translate into viable exports of US designed cars
as nobody abroad seems to have interest in the products.
Murphy is an optimist
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11648
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:14 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
WIederling wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
One would assume for nearly twice the price in the EU, your Tesla would be nearly twice as good, but, alas, not so. Government, in this case, is not a value-added good.

What are the warranty conditions and other "fringe" properties in the US for the product?


Point being, in the US we pay for the car, virtually no tax other than state sales of 6%-ish; in the EU you’re paying almost twice the US price without any added value.


The VAT is on the value added by Tesla and its downstream suppliers.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
adventzkid
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:16 pm

I guess this Model 3 won’t get any cheaper from here. Of course, they will promise that future Tesla models will cost less—the Model Y SUV could make its debut this summer. And those could hit the road in just two to three years’ time.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:20 pm

WIederling wrote:
...
as nobody abroad seems to have interest in the products.


Most luxury cars sold in the US are of European or Japanese origin. There has never been significant interest in US origin luxury cars in Europe. Buick/Cadillac interest in China was short lived. So your statement is hypothetical.

China owns EV market segment. Elon Musk with all his drama factor is no match to Chinese government interest to dominate this segment and subsidies they are pouring in.

The discussion should be on China vs Rest of the world, not US vs EU.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:29 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
The discussion should be on China vs Rest of the world, not US vs EU.

Some people raised with a Red Army Faction mind set will have a hard time making the transition.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:43 pm

Revelation wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
The discussion should be on China vs Rest of the world, not US vs EU.

Some people raised with a Red Army Faction mind set will have a hard time making the transition.


Reality is much different. They never gained traction in selling ICE vehicles in the west, they will do everything same is not repeated in EV segment.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/electric-c ... 0-minutes/

Keep in mind even with its innovations in solar panel technology, Solyndra went belly up when Chinese trashed worldwide panel prices.
 
FatCat
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3,

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
We'll see. I think it is a good thing you could buy them for $US 35.000. I would buy one immediately if that was the price in The Netherlands, but it is 2,5times that, it is for the longe range model (€ 55.000plus), but still.

there are many Teslas in The Netherlands. you there have many recharging points too.
but for me the question is: how difficult would be making an Europe trip with your freshly bought € 55000,- + car?
there are quite a lot of charging points in Germany and surely also in Austria.
in France, haven't seen so many.
continental Spain, also.
Italy, here not a single one - and if you find one, it will be out of service.
Greece - haven't seen one
Slovenia - haven't seen one
Poland - not so many
so your Tesla will be pretty useless outside California or The Netherlands...
and by the way, where will you attach your caravan? :rotfl:
Aeroplane flies high
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tommy1808
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:09 pm

adventzkid wrote:
I guess this Model 3 won’t get any cheaper from here. Of course, they will promise that future Tesla models will cost less—the Model Y SUV could make its debut this summer. And those could hit the road in just two to three years’ time.


It may have to get cheaper though...

When they announced that cheap EV 35k USD was a killer price.... but today?

Chevrolet Bolt EV is just slightly more expensive and has a bigger battery...
Hyundai Kona ist about the same, with an even bigger battery.....
Nissan Leaf Plus is expected to be about the same, with a bigger battery
Kia Soul EV dito

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 22243
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:25 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
adventzkid wrote:
I guess this Model 3 won’t get any cheaper from here. Of course, they will promise that future Tesla models will cost less—the Model Y SUV could make its debut this summer. And those could hit the road in just two to three years’ time.


It may have to get cheaper though...

When they announced that cheap EV 35k USD was a killer price.... but today?

Chevrolet Bolt EV is just slightly more expensive and has a bigger battery...
Hyundai Kona ist about the same, with an even bigger battery.....
Nissan Leaf Plus is expected to be about the same, with a bigger battery
Kia Soul EV dito

best regards
Thomas

As critical as I have been of Tesla above, I do think the Tesla represents a different value proposition than some of the cars you have listed. The whole flat panel UI thing, over the air updates, a widely praised driving experience, etc.

Yet as I also point out, their high profile has given the competitors a clear target, and they are all starting from the point of being efficient and well funded auto makers whereas I feel that Tesla's biggest flaws are the basics of the auto industry, such as design for manufacture, quality, and post-sales service.

Basically, here is the point where Tesla should be looking for a traditional auto maker to buy their auto line.

They have brought an innovative product to market but they can't grow it the way others can. If they want to save the planet, keep the battery and solar factory and use the profits for space exploration. If you don't the risk is large that the traditional auto makers will do things you can't and the auto line will drag the rest of the business into bankruptcy.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:29 pm

If by the end of this year they do get up to the 500K rate, I think it could be said that they have made the transition into a major auto maker. They will also inherit a lot of design and process improvements from the Chinese production lines. It could be, ironically, one of the first major reverse flows of IP from China to the US. Likewise with battery production.

Musk is and should be considered a national treasure - despite his challenging you know who as a tweeter in chief. Electric cars would be no where as of today - the world around had Tesla not appeared. He single handedly (maybe China excepted- admittedly big exception) challenged the entire automotive world - and won - they are reduced to playing catch-up. Likewise battery production and rocket science. He beat out two formidable competitors, Bezos and Paul Allan as well as all of the existing establishment companies and institutions.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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Aesma
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:31 pm

Can the other EV do autonomous driving (by paying more to get it) ?

For commuting in bad traffic that's worth a lot to me.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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mad99
Posts: 1205
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Re: Tesla closing its stores to pay for $35,000 Model 3,

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:46 pm

FatCat wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
We'll see. I think it is a good thing you could buy them for $US 35.000. I would buy one immediately if that was the price in The Netherlands, but it is 2,5times that, it is for the longe range model (€ 55.000plus), but still.

there are many Teslas in The Netherlands. you there have many recharging points too.
but for me the question is: how difficult would be making an Europe trip with your freshly bought € 55000,- + car?
there are quite a lot of charging points in Germany and surely also in Austria.
in France, haven't seen so many.
continental Spain, also.
Italy, here not a single one - and if you find one, it will be out of service.
Greece - haven't seen one
Slovenia - haven't seen one
Poland - not so many
so your Tesla will be pretty useless outside California or The Netherlands...
and by the way, where will you attach your caravan? :rotfl:


just plan it ikea to ikea and use the chargers for free!
have something to eat then wait for them to close and sleep in bedrooms

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