User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 10180
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:50 pm

Came across a nice youtube video about the imperial system. And the question arose, when will Myramar, Liberia and The United States, joins the rest of the world and move to the metric system. Seems to me it would only be positive, logical, the system used by science and used by 95% of the people.

Image

It seems to cost billions, two sets of measures, products, mistakes being made etc.

Two notorious mistakes being made by conversions:

Crash of the Boeing 767/Gimli Glider: not enough fuel due to conversion error. Luckely noone was hurt and they could use the aircraft again, so actualy a great landing.

Image

The loss of the mars orbiter because Lockheed Martin used the Imperial system and NASA the metric.

So when will the US enact the Metric Conversion Act of 1975 ;)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Bostrom
Posts: 826
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:56 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Came across a nice youtube video about the imperial system. And the question arose, when will Myramar, Liberia and The United States, joins the rest of the world and move to the metric system. Seems to me it would only be positive, logical, the system used by science and used by 95% of the people.

Image


Slightly incorrect actually, as Burma/Myanmar mostly uses old burmese units and not the imperial system.

Another good question is, when will the UK settle on one system?
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:08 pm

Bostrom wrote:
Another good question is, when will the UK settle on one system?


If Brexit happens, never. Brexiteers love Imperial, and will surely be pushed to come back as the weight unit of choice. When I grew up we got tought both imperial and metric. I worked in aviation for 5 years and got completely used to Metric, and now after living in Germany for 3 years it just re enforces my view that imperial is stupid.
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 2766
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:17 pm

This is like the discussion about knowing multiple languages can be beneficial to you.

I've sized aircraft in both units. it's not difficult.
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 7643
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:20 pm

The map is misleading as there are still a couple of countries that haven't fully gone metric yet (Canada and the UK being the best examples). Also, Liberia and Burma have both announced plans to go metric (though that's easier said than done).

PR is a very curious case: we're raised with a mix of units. Roads are marked in kilometers, but speed limit is in mph. Milk and water are sold by gallons but gas is sold by liter.

I think we should just go full metric. No need to convert in science and math classes. The only unit I'd probably struggle with the most is temperature. Fahrenheit is very easy going: 0 is a very cold day; 100 is a very hot day. Celsius, on the other hand, is not: 0 is a cold day; 100 means you're dead.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Bostrom
Posts: 826
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:24 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
imperial is stupid.


Can't argue with that.
 
KentB27
Posts: 476
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:28 pm

I seriously doubt that the US will ever fully convert to the metric system. It would be very costly and take years to completely convert. One huge hurdle I see is that changing all of the highway markings and signs to kilometers would be a massively time consuming and expensive undertaking that realistically isn't necessary.
 
User avatar
falstaff
Posts: 5735
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:17 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:33 pm

Bostrom wrote:
Another good question is, when will the UK settle on one system?


The UK still uses miles. Cars in the UK have mph speedometers.

Canadian railroads still measure distance in miles as far as operations go. The entire Canadian rail network has mile posts, just like in the US.

Reinhardt wrote:
Brexiteers love Imperial, and will surely be pushed to come back primarily as the weight unit of choice.

My friends in the UK are VERY anti EU. They got all worked up when beer glasses at the pub started arriving with metric measurements on them.

Dutchy wrote:
So when will the US enact the Metric Conversion Act of 1975


Hopefully never... The metric system is easier and I like it, but I like the imperial system too. The Imperial system has now become almost unique to the US and is one of the things that makes our country unique.

I learned about the metric system in elementary school. I recall watching a filmstrip called "Here Comes the Metric System" or something like that. My teacher talked about how all of us would be using it by the time we were her age. I am now older than she was at the time and still don't use the metric system. When I drive in Canada I just switch the speedometer units on my truck.

Bostrom wrote:
as Burma/Myanmar mostly uses old burmese units and not the imperial system.

I didn't know that. What do they call them and how to they correspond with the imperial or metric system?

Dutchy wrote:
It seems to cost billions, two sets of measures, products, mistakes being made etc.


I used to own a 1973 Ford F250 that I bought in Canada. It was built with a mph speedometer (Canada hadn't switched at the time). It had a decal placed over the mph speedo with metric units on it. Because the speedometer itself was never changed the odometer calculated miles. There was a mathematical formula printed on it so one could figure out home many kilometers were on it. My friend's dad had bought the truck new and remembers his dad taking the speedo out of the truck and installing the decal on it, that he bought at the Ford dealer, in 1977. My buddy was learning how to drive at the time and his dad didn't want him making any speed related errors by mixing up kph and mph.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 10180
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:38 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
The only unit I'd probably struggle with the most is temperature. Fahrenheit is very easy going: 0 is a very cold day; 100 is a very hot day. Celsius, on the other hand, is not: 0 is a cold day; 100 means you're dead.


Celsius is easy: water is frozen: < 0C, water is boiling > 100C. So again based on science. Personally I have no clue about the Fahrenheit scale.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 7643
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:41 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
This is like the discussion about knowing multiple languages can be beneficial to you.

The advantage of knowing multiple languages is that while neither of the 2+ parties may speak each other's native language, there's always one common language (English by default) with which they can all communicate. The Metric System serves that purpose, except countries believe that by adopting the system, they knock down one more barrier. Imagine someone born and raised in the metric world and driving into the US (with a vehicle that only displays km/h). How are they supposed to know that they're going too fast? The example doesn't work the other way because all US vehicles also display km/h, which only serves to emphasize the point that the US should move towards metric.

trpmb6 wrote:
I've sized aircraft in both units. it's not difficult.
Practice makes perfect. However, I'll reiterate the point from my previous point: try telling a kid that struggles in math or science that they need to convert units. It's simple arithmetic but it just adds complication. Heck, even at a master's level course we had problem getting a simulation to work properly because there were so many units that needed conversion that the smallest rounding error snowballed throughout the exercise. Going from BTUs to J so that we could work with watts to then convert back...students can fail tests because even though they applied the correct principles, the units were off (the professors may be lenient and award partial credit, but odds are it's binary).
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 7643
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
The only unit I'd probably struggle with the most is temperature. Fahrenheit is very easy going: 0 is a very cold day; 100 is a very hot day. Celsius, on the other hand, is not: 0 is a cold day; 100 means you're dead.


Celsius is easy: water is frozen: < 0C, water is boiling > 100C. So again based on science. Personally I have no clue about the Fahrenheit scale.

Celsius is based off of the freezing and boiling points for water, so to measure temperature of a substance, it makes total sense. For weather on Earth, however, Fahrenheit is more straightforward (but again, I grew in the Fahrenheit world). What relation is there to say that today's temperature will be 0C with air temperature? So it's cold enough that water can freeze...OK. What do I do with that information?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Bostrom
Posts: 826
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:46 pm

falstaff wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
Another good question is, when will the UK settle on one system?


The UK still uses miles. Cars in the UK have mph speedometers.


The UK sort of uses both systems. Speed limits are in mph, road lengths are measured in miles, but their width is measured in metres. Temperatures are Celsius, apart from on headlines during heat waves. And so on. Fruit and vegetables is sold by the kilo, but tap beer by the pint. Makes sense?

falstaff wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
as Burma/Myanmar mostly uses old burmese units and not the imperial system.

I didn't know that. What do they call them and how to they correspond with the imperial or metric system?


Click the link on my post and you'll find out…

But a selection of lenght units are:
လက်သစ်let thit, 1.905 cm
မိုက် maik, 15.24 cm
ထွာ htwa, 22.86 cm
တောင်t taung, 45.72 cm
လံ lan, 1.8288 m
တာ ta, 3.2004 m
ဥသဘ out-thaba, 64.008 m
ကောသ kawtha, 1.28016 km
ဂါ၀ုတ် ga-wout, 5.12064 km

Dutchy wrote:
It seems to cost billions, two sets of measures, products, mistakes being made etc.


And, human health. Conversion errors leading to drug overdoses are a problem in the US health care system.
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1938
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:48 pm

If they go metric what will happen to aviation though? I mean Imperial is a dumb system that was created just so someone could say they did something important, but it plays a huge role in aviation. Like, will we start measuring in meters instead of feet? How expensive will it be to change everything up for aircraft? I'd like to see the world adopt metric, but it's definitely not a walk in the park
A350/CSeries = bae
 
Bostrom
Posts: 826
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:52 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
The only unit I'd probably struggle with the most is temperature. Fahrenheit is very easy going: 0 is a very cold day; 100 is a very hot day. Celsius, on the other hand, is not: 0 is a cold day; 100 means you're dead.


Celsius is easy: water is frozen: < 0C, water is boiling > 100C. So again based on science. Personally I have no clue about the Fahrenheit scale.

Celsius is based off of the freezing and boiling points for water, so to measure temperature of a substance, it makes total sense. For weather on Earth, however, Fahrenheit is more straightforward (but again, I grew in the Fahrenheit world). What relation is there to say that today's temperature will be 0C with air temperature? So it's cold enough that water can freeze...OK. What do I do with that information?


I don't know where you grew up, but knowing if precipitation will arrive as rain or snow is usually pretty useful.

But is Farenheit really more straightforward for the weather? What relation is there to say that today's temperature will be 0F with air temperature? So it's cold enough that a solution of brine made from equal parts of ice, water and ammonium chloride can freeze...OK. What do I do with that information? ;)
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:11 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
........... but gas is sold by liter.


The Brits apparently went metric on petrol when the gallon price went near the 199p line.
Still mostly mechanical indication on the pumps at the time. could only do 0 or 1 for the
whole pound digit.
https://www.theaa.com/public_affairs/re ... allons.pdf

They had some experience on going kind of metric when they changed to 100p per pound.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_Day
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 5677
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:12 pm

I just had to think about the paper sizes used in Europe and in other places.

A0 is one meter squared.
A1 is 0.5 m^2.
A2 is 0.25 m^2.

And so on.

And the sides have always the same relative lengths, namely a : b = 1 : sqrt(2).

I need to send a letter with 9 A4 sheets, and given that my letter paper weighs 75 grams per square meter, I can easily figure out the weight.

Why the US still uses the those funny formats... US Letter, US Legal, whatever... is beyond me.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 9408
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:18 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
I just had to think about the paper sizes used in Europe and in other places.

A0 is one meter squared.
A1 is 0.5 m^2.
A2 is 0.25 m^2.

And so on.

And the sides have always the same relative lengths, namely a : b = 1 : sqrt(2).

I need to send a letter with 9 A4 sheets, and given that my letter paper weighs 75 grams per square meter, I can easily figure out the weight.

Why the US still uses the those funny formats... US Letter, US Legal, whatever... is beyond me.


David


You still use paper?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:19 pm

Fahrenheit is more accurate unless you get into decimals. Nobody uses decimals when reporting the weather. So Fahrenheit is the better system.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 10180
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:23 pm

Magog wrote:
Fahrenheit is more accurate unless you get into decimals. Nobody uses decimals when reporting the weather. So Fahrenheit is the better system.


accurate? What is more accurate about it?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
WildcatYXU
Posts: 3119
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:28 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
The map is misleading as there are still a couple of countries that haven't fully gone metric yet (Canada and the UK being the best examples).


The situation in Canada is a real mess. The legal units are metric, but real life is completely different. For starters, every grocery store (with the only exception oddly being Costco) has prices listed per pound. Obviously, that's because it is a lower number than price per kilogram. Now, if you order a "pint" of beer, you can receive an US pint (473 ml), or a half liter or an imperial pint (568 ml). Bottled beer comes in 341 ml size (12 imperial ounces), but canned beer comes in 355 ml size (12 US ounces). And let's not even start about the extra fuel efficient cars in Canada.

einsteinboricua wrote:
The map is misleading as there are still a couple of countries that haven't fully gone metric yet (Canada and the UK being the best examples).

PR is a very curious case: we're raised with a mix of units. Roads are marked in kilometers, but speed limit is in mph. Milk and water are sold by gallons but gas is sold by liter.


I believe it's similar in the DR too. Except they sell gas by the gallon.
310, 319, 320, 321, 321N, 332, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
User avatar
WildcatYXU
Posts: 3119
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:31 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
The only unit I'd probably struggle with the most is temperature. Fahrenheit is very easy going: 0 is a very cold day; 100 is a very hot day. Celsius, on the other hand, is not: 0 is a cold day; 100 means you're dead.


Celsius is easy: water is frozen: < 0C, water is boiling > 100C. So again based on science. Personally I have no clue about the Fahrenheit scale.

Celsius is based off of the freezing and boiling points for water, so to measure temperature of a substance, it makes total sense. For weather on Earth, however, Fahrenheit is more straightforward (but again, I grew in the Fahrenheit world). What relation is there to say that today's temperature will be 0C with air temperature? So it's cold enough that water can freeze...OK. What do I do with that information?


Drive carefully, you may hit black ice.
310, 319, 320, 321, 321N, 332, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 7643
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:42 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
I believe it's similar in the DR too. Except they sell gas by the gallon.

The DR is an independent country, so its unit mix up is due to the slow process to become metric. Puerto Rico is not metric and I believe that, because the US is not metric, it cannot really go metric either (and this is leaving aside the whole territorial status issue where statehood advocates would oppose metrification because it is not aligned with the US).
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17635
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:53 pm

falstaff wrote:
The UK still uses miles. Cars in the UK have mph speedometers.


And we buy fuel for our mile-driving cars in litres!

I buy bottled water and orange juice in litres, milk and beer in pints.

US and UK pints (and thus gallons) are different!

My wife does dressmaking. She buys lengths of fabric by the metre, but the width is measured in yards!

Imperial is bonkers, metric simple.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
KentB27
Posts: 476
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:58 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Magog wrote:
Fahrenheit is more accurate unless you get into decimals. Nobody uses decimals when reporting the weather. So Fahrenheit is the better system.


accurate? What is more accurate about it?


Fahrenheit measures temperatures in smaller increments than Celsius does. From freezing point to boiling point for water in Fahrenheit is 32F-212F, so you have 180 degrees between freezing point and boiling point with Fahrenheit. With Celsius, you only have a 100 degree difference between the freezing and boiling point of water so 1 degree Celsius is a broader difference in temperature than 1 degree Fahrenheit. Therefore Fahrenheit is slightly more accurate than Celsius is.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9471
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:20 pm

I love this discussion.
I see little value in switching to the metric system as conversion is easy (especially nowadays). Also thought metric supporters claim it is "scientific" it really isn't anymore so really than imperial. It is just based on a different set base of measurement.

The meter? It is supposedly based on the circumference of the earth but really it isn't that and so there is an "meter stick" somewhere carefully stored as the master reference for the length. And its division? It really isn't any more accurate than fractions of an inch. Sure you can go to decimals, just keep adding zeros but the accuracy is no better nor easier to understand.

And Celsius? It set for 0 at "freezing" and 100 for boiling but at what pressure, what time of year, what altitude? And again, the "measurement" is not more accurate than Fahrenheit.

To me the superior thing of Imperial is that it is relatable to a human, on average, in general. Not exactly but relatable enough. An inch? About the distance of the end of your thumb. A foot? just a bit more than your foot (probably but if your are wearing shoes, for me at least it is nearly exact).

A pint seems simpler than 330ml and is a normal amount that one may drink at a simple meal. Sure it could be 300ml.... but who drinks 100ml? or a liter at one meal?

And of course to me who grew up with it I like miles, but I think that it what the real truth is in this discussion, we like what we know and are familiar with.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
doug_or
Posts: 3234
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:28 pm

KentB27 wrote:
Therefore Fahrenheit is slightly more accurate than Celsius is.


I'd say more precise. There is no practical difference between a weather forecast for exactly 24c and a forecast for 23.5c that is rounded up to 24c.

The only reasonable argument I've heard for imperial is a carpenter who likes the divisibility of 12 and using fractions over decimal places and trying to divide into 10.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 2766
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:32 pm

KentB27 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Magog wrote:
Fahrenheit is more accurate unless you get into decimals. Nobody uses decimals when reporting the weather. So Fahrenheit is the better system.


accurate? What is more accurate about it?


Fahrenheit measures temperatures in smaller increments than Celsius does. From freezing point to boiling point for water in Fahrenheit is 32F-212F, so you have 180 degrees between freezing point and boiling point with Fahrenheit. With Celsius, you only have a 100 degree difference between the freezing and boiling point of water so 1 degree Celsius is a broader difference in temperature than 1 degree Fahrenheit. Therefore Fahrenheit is slightly more accurate than Celsius is.


False.

Fahrenheit is more precise in that region.

Edit: bah Doug_or beat me to it.
 
masi1157
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:37 pm

Magog wrote:
Fahrenheit is more accurate unless you get into decimals. Nobody uses decimals when reporting the weather. So Fahrenheit is the better system.


Would you expect a weather forecast to state the statistic error in the form of say 20°C ± 2°C? Are weather forecasts given like that when using Fahrenheit? Or do you simply have no clue of the accuracy of measurements?


Gruß, masi1157
511 different segments on 101 airlines to 212 airports in 55 countries
 
KentB27
Posts: 476
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:38 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
KentB27 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

accurate? What is more accurate about it?


Fahrenheit measures temperatures in smaller increments than Celsius does. From freezing point to boiling point for water in Fahrenheit is 32F-212F, so you have 180 degrees between freezing point and boiling point with Fahrenheit. With Celsius, you only have a 100 degree difference between the freezing and boiling point of water so 1 degree Celsius is a broader difference in temperature than 1 degree Fahrenheit. Therefore Fahrenheit is slightly more accurate than Celsius is.


False.

Fahrenheit is more precise in that region.

Edit: bah Doug_or beat me to it.


Precise vs accurate. You all knew what I meant..............I'm still correct.
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:40 pm

masi1157 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Fahrenheit is more accurate unless you get into decimals. Nobody uses decimals when reporting the weather. So Fahrenheit is the better system.


Would you expect a weather forecast to state the statistic error in the form of say 20°C ± 2°C? Are weather forecasts given like that when using Fahrenheit? Or do you simply have no clue of the accuracy of measurements?


Gruß, masi1157

No need to be rude and pedantic. The context of my point was clear, even if I should have used the term, “precise.”
Last edited by Magog on Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8249
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:41 pm

Tugger wrote:
I love this discussion.
I see little value in switching to the metric system as conversion is easy (especially nowadays). Also thought metric supporters claim it is "scientific" it really isn't anymore so really than imperial. It is just based on a different set base of measurement.

The meter? It is supposedly based on the circumference of the earth but really it isn't that and so there is an "meter stick" somewhere carefully stored as the master reference for the length. And its division? It really isn't any more accurate than fractions of an inch. Sure you can go to decimals, just keep adding zeros but the accuracy is no better nor easier to understand.

And Celsius? It set for 0 at "freezing" and 100 for boiling but at what pressure, what time of year, what altitude? And again, the "measurement" is not more accurate than Fahrenheit.

To me the superior thing of Imperial is that it is relatable to a human, on average, in general. Not exactly but relatable enough. An inch? About the distance of the end of your thumb. A foot? just a bit more than your foot (probably but if your are wearing shoes, for me at least it is nearly exact).

A pint seems simpler than 330ml and is a normal amount that one may drink at a simple meal. Sure it could be 300ml.... but who drinks 100ml? or a liter at one meal?

And of course to me who grew up with it I like miles, but I think that it what the real truth is in this discussion, we like what we know and are familiar with.

Tugg


The divisiblity of the metric systems has nothing to do with accuracy, but with ease.

And relatability has to do with your familiarity with whichever system, nothing else. The imperial system is totally unrelatable to someone who was raised under the metric system, but that same person also has zero problems relating to the size of a centimeter and meters.

The point of SI units is to be easier and to be common. And they are easier. No doubt switching would be hard though, breaking familiarity always is.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
masi1157
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:44 pm

Magog wrote:
No need to be rude and pedantic The context of my point was clear, even if I should have used the term, “precise.”


So you would say a system using "centimeter" and "gramm" (the cgs system) is more precise than one using "meter" and "kilogramm" (the international SI system)? :eek:


Gruß, masi1157
511 different segments on 101 airlines to 212 airports in 55 countries
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:47 pm

masi1157 wrote:
Magog wrote:
No need to be rude and pedantic The context of my point was clear, even if I should have used the term, “precise.”


So you would say a system using "centimeter" and "gramm" (the cgs system) is more precise than one using "meter" and "kilogramm" (the international SI system)? :eek:


Gruß, masi1157

Relax. I said that Fahrenheit is more precise, and is therefore preferable to Centigrade. I stand by that. This is based on my earlier comment the temperature in Centigrade is not normally reported as a fraction. Having spent significant time in countries that use both systems, I find Fahrenheit to be the superior system.
Last edited by Magog on Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
falstaff
Posts: 5735
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:17 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:47 pm

In the US tires are sized in both metric and imperial and example would be P195/50R16 The P indicates metric and the 195 and 50 indicate width and sidewall height in millimeters. The 16 indicates a 16inch rim.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3490
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:54 pm

So these countries should spend untold numbers of dollars and make untold number of mistakes to switch to a less practical (in everyday use) system just because the majority of the world has it? No way. The US has it down well. Know and understand both, but use the system that works best for the situation.

The irony of the metric system is that its main advantage (the mathematical side) is less and less relevant with modern technology. Technology is readily available and can calculate essentially anything. The days of needing to know how to manually calculate are nearing their end. What people are actually complaining about is conversion. Well, if every country was on the imperial system, we wouldn't have an issue with that either. So it's not a problem of the imperial system. The problem is that there's more than one system.

KentB27 wrote:
Precise vs accurate. You all knew what I meant..............I'm still correct.


What you mentioned reminds me of when I was in London recently. On the weather forecast, they started breaking it down by half a degree. That never happens in the US since the Fahrenheit system is more precise. I couldn't help but chuckle at how ridiculous that is. Just use Fahrenheit. Problem solved.
 
masi1157
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:58 pm

Magog wrote:
Relax. I said that Fahrenheit is more precise, and is therefore preferable to Centigrade. I stand by that. This is based on my earlier comment the temperature in Centigrade is not normally reported as a fraction. Having spent significant time in countries that use both systems, I find Fahrenheit to be the superior system.


Oh sure. And I prefer to state the distance from my home to work in meter instead of kilometer, it is so much more precise. Even the statistic error might be in the order of several meter (I don't always use the exact same path), but that won't bother me.


Gruß, masi1157
511 different segments on 101 airlines to 212 airports in 55 countries
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 10180
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:59 pm

KentB27 wrote:
Precise vs accurate. You all knew what I meant..............I'm still correct.


Nope, I truly didn't have a clue. 8-)

But indeed, for all practical purposes, you could even go with a 50 point scale between the freezing point and the boiling point of water. If the forecast is 22 degrees, i would not doing anything else then if the forecast was 20C or 25C. And if a precise measurement is required, indeed you have all the decimals you want. But that also goes for Fahrenheit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:01 pm

masi1157 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Relax. I said that Fahrenheit is more precise, and is therefore preferable to Centigrade. I stand by that. This is based on my earlier comment the temperature in Centigrade is not normally reported as a fraction. Having spent significant time in countries that use both systems, I find Fahrenheit to be the superior system.


Oh sure. And I prefer to state the distance from my home to work in meter instead of kilometer, it is so much more precise. Even the statistic error might be in the order of several meter (I don't always use the exact same path), but that won't bother me.


Gruß, masi1157

Great to hear! Thanks for sharing that.
 
masi1157
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:02 pm

Dutchy wrote:
... indeed you have all the decimals you want. But that also goes for Fahrenheit.


Oops! Do they use decimal points with Fahrenheit? Not 85 7/16 °F or anything like that? :eek:


Gruß, masi1157
511 different segments on 101 airlines to 212 airports in 55 countries
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:05 pm

masi1157 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
... indeed you have all the decimals you want. But that also goes for Fahrenheit.


Oops! Do they use decimal points with Fahrenheit? Not 85 7/16 °F or anything like that? :eek:


Gruß, masi1157

Nope. The don’t use fractions like that.
 
masi1157
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:12 pm

Magog wrote:
Nope. The don’t use fractions like that.


With other words, they use the decimal system, at least in that case?


Gruß, masi1157
Last edited by masi1157 on Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
511 different segments on 101 airlines to 212 airports in 55 countries
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8249
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:27 pm

Fahrenheit’s greater number of degrees between freezing and boiling is perhaps its only advantage.

If more precision is needed, Celsius can add decimals or simply state 34-35 degrees rather than 34.5 degrees. If that decimal had much utility, people would start using it.

The greatest utility of all, however, would be not having to convert back and forth....
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 10180
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:31 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
So these countries should spend untold numbers of dollars and make untold number of mistakes to switch to a less practical (in everyday use) system just because the majority of the world has it? No way. The US has it down well. Know and understand both, but use the system that works best for the situation.


Yes because everyone uses it., why not in our connected world? Lot less messy. And then it makes perfect sense to use the system almost everyone uses and you are familiar with. The rest of the world hasn't got a clue what you are talking about.

MSPNWA wrote:
but use the system that works best for the situation.

Why does it work best? Because you grew up with it, not because it is easy to understand and learn.

1km = 0,6214 miles.
1km = 1.093,664 yards
1km = 3.280,84 feet
1km = 39.370,08 inch

1km= 0mi 1093yd 1ft 10.07860in

You might say I am used to it, but I bad I can explain to you the metric system in 10 minutes but you can't do that with the imperial system. Just ridiculous complicated and are actually 4 systems you use, miles | yards | feet | inch, and they aren't interconnected. The metric system is 1 system, all you do is adjust a comma if you want to do something 10 fold. My 6 y/o understands that.

I am 1,90meters tall. So that would mean: 6ft 2.8in or 6,2ft :shock:

KentB27 wrote:
The irony of the metric system is that its main advantage (the mathematical side) is less and less relevant with modern technology. Technology is readily available and can calculate essentially anything. The days of needing to know how to manually calculate are nearing their end. What people are actually complaining about is conversion. Well, if every country was on the imperial system, we wouldn't have an issue with that either. So it's not a problem of the imperial system. The problem is that there's more than one system.


I cannot agree with this statement. You want to have some understanding about numbers and then an easier system is obvious the superior one.

KentB27 wrote:
Precise vs accurate. You all knew what I meant..............I'm still correct.


What you mentioned reminds me of when I was in London recently. On the weather forecast, they started breaking it down by half a degree. That never happens in the US since the Fahrenheit system is more precise. I couldn't help but chuckle at how ridiculous that is. Just use Fahrenheit. Problem solved.[/quote]

Pfff, so with 0,5C scales, the Celsius scale is the better one. As it is a given that it is quite ridiculous to do a forecast like that, in real life it doesn't matter :white:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Brick
Posts: 1671
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 1999 11:08 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:34 pm

There are two types of countries on this planet:

1. Those that use the metric system.
2. Those that have been to the moon.
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man...
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 10180
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:45 pm

Brick wrote:
There are two types of countries on this planet:

1. Those that use the metric system.
2. Those that have been to the moon.


Wow Liberia has been to the moon :old:

Ones learns something every day.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
masi1157
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:46 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Know and understand both, but use the system that works best for the situation.

Simply use always the same (international standardized) system, but the unit that works best. You can easily use millimeter, centimeter, meter, kilometer and switch between them by shifting the decimal point. Try that with inch, foot, yard, mile and all those.

MSPNWA wrote:
The days of needing to know how to manually calculate are nearing their end.

Are you serious? Is that the future? No more need to even be able to calculate things manually or by head? :eek: I'm glad I am old enough and will not have to live in that world.


Gruß, masi1157
511 different segments on 101 airlines to 212 airports in 55 countries
 
User avatar
akiss20
Posts: 934
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:50 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:55 pm

Tugger wrote:
I love this discussion.
I see little value in switching to the metric system as conversion is easy (especially nowadays). Also thought metric supporters claim it is "scientific" it really isn't anymore so really than imperial. It is just based on a different set base of measurement.

The meter? It is supposedly based on the circumference of the earth but really it isn't that and so there is an "meter stick" somewhere carefully stored as the master reference for the length. And its division? It really isn't any more accurate than fractions of an inch. Sure you can go to decimals, just keep adding zeros but the accuracy is no better nor easier to understand.

And Celsius? It set for 0 at "freezing" and 100 for boiling but at what pressure, what time of year, what altitude? And again, the "measurement" is not more accurate than Fahrenheit.

To me the superior thing of Imperial is that it is relatable to a human, on average, in general. Not exactly but relatable enough. An inch? About the distance of the end of your thumb. A foot? just a bit more than your foot (probably but if your are wearing shoes, for me at least it is nearly exact).

A pint seems simpler than 330ml and is a normal amount that one may drink at a simple meal. Sure it could be 300ml.... but who drinks 100ml? or a liter at one meal?

And of course to me who grew up with it I like miles, but I think that it what the real truth is in this discussion, we like what we know and are familiar with.

Tugg


This is not true. All base SI units will be based off of exact values of physical constants in the universe (the kilogram and a few others are switching definition on May 20th 2019). The meter is defined off the distance the speed of light travels in a certain amount of time (and the second itself is defined off of the decay of a cesium 133 atom). The Kelvin (from which the Celsius scale is defined) is defined from Boltzmann's constant (and before that it was based on the triple point of water which only exists at a single pressure and temperature). Most imperial units are now defined as exactly some amount of SI units (e.g. since 1959 1 foot has been defined as exactly 0.3048 meters).

SI is much much more useful in scientific applications as unit and it makes unit analysis a lot easier than imperial. I am in aerospace engineering academia in the US. While industry still often uses imperial, much of academia does everything in SI as it is so much easier to use. Whenever we work with data from industry, we do what I call the imperial sandwich. Convert everything to SI, do all the actual analysis and work, and then convert the results back to imperial to present to industry. Even in industry you will find some SI as you move further away from product development and into research. I have also found that the younger generations tend to be much more resistant to imperial than the older.
Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3931
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:04 pm

Won’t happen in America when the politicians and media find out it’s FRENCH, worse a product of the Revolution and a frog Condorcet. Never fly, but there’s no excuse for not knowing and using BOTH.

UTC was jus a French idea to steal the title of GMT from the English who invented it.

GF
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9471
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:09 pm

akiss20 wrote:
This is not true. All base SI units will be based off of exact values of physical constants in the universe (the kilogram and a few others are switching definition on May 20th 2019). The meter is defined off the distance the speed of light travels in a certain amount of time (and the second itself is defined off of the decay of a cesium 133 atom). The Kelvin (from which the Celsius scale is defined) is defined from Boltzmann's constant (and before that it was based on the triple point of water which only exists at a single pressure and temperature). Most imperial units are now defined as exactly some amount of SI units (e.g. since 1959 1 foot has been defined as exactly 0.3048 meters).

SI is much much more useful in scientific applications as unit and it makes unit analysis a lot easier than imperial. I am in aerospace engineering academia in the US. While industry still often uses imperial, much of academia does everything in SI as it is so much easier to use. Whenever we work with data from industry, we do what I call the imperial sandwich. Convert everything to SI, do all the actual analysis and work, and then convert the results back to imperial to present to industry. Even in industry you will find some SI as you move further away from product development and into research. I have also found that the younger generations tend to be much more resistant to imperial than the older.

Yes it is true. We are talking about the metric system, not "SI" per say. And you prove it, the metric measurements are also "variable" and so are fixed to a specific parameter and then matched to a universal constant.

Yes metric has been adopted into SI which also include atomic measurements etc. and everything is now converted to a fixed physical law.

You could do the EXACT same "physical constant value" for Imperial.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 9408
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:17 pm

Tugger wrote:
akiss20 wrote:
This is not true. All base SI units will be based off of exact values of physical constants in the universe (the kilogram and a few others are switching definition on May 20th 2019). The meter is defined off the distance the speed of light travels in a certain amount of time (and the second itself is defined off of the decay of a cesium 133 atom). The Kelvin (from which the Celsius scale is defined) is defined from Boltzmann's constant (and before that it was based on the triple point of water which only exists at a single pressure and temperature). Most imperial units are now defined as exactly some amount of SI units (e.g. since 1959 1 foot has been defined as exactly 0.3048 meters).

SI is much much more useful in scientific applications as unit and it makes unit analysis a lot easier than imperial. I am in aerospace engineering academia in the US. While industry still often uses imperial, much of academia does everything in SI as it is so much easier to use. Whenever we work with data from industry, we do what I call the imperial sandwich. Convert everything to SI, do all the actual analysis and work, and then convert the results back to imperial to present to industry. Even in industry you will find some SI as you move further away from product development and into research. I have also found that the younger generations tend to be much more resistant to imperial than the older.

Yes it is true. We are talking about the metric system, not "SI" per say. And you prove it, the metric measurements are also "variable" and so are fixed to a specific parameter and then matched to a universal constant.

Yes metric has been adopted into SI which also include atomic measurements etc. and everything is now converted to a fixed physical law.

You could do the EXACT same "physical constant value" for Imperial.

Tugg


Tugg,
There are issues though, and metric solves them much better.
Newtons vs Pound-force
1 Liter of water weighs 1 KG


There are nice baselines for which scientists can easily visualize causality for.

Personally I like jogging a 5k better than a 5 miler :)
Where ever you go, there you are.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BN747, KFTG, stratclub and 63 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos