masi1157
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Re: Imperial System

Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:35 pm

Erebus wrote:
Is the US the only country in the world that spells it 'liter' and 'meter'?


No. It is Liter and Meter in german and probably many more languages.


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masi1157
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Re: Imperial System

Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:33 pm

    Who cares? In "irish pubs" in Germany you can order something called a "pint of Guinness". It may actually be close to a pint, but legally it is 0.568l (± whatever the legal tolerance in the EU may be). It won't be much different from that in the UK (at least for the next 3 weeks).


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    trpmb6
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    Re: Imperial System

    Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:50 pm

    I just bought a pepsi from one of our vending kiosks and I'm staring right now at it. It says 20 FL OZ (1.25 PT) 591 mL

    Nutritional values listed in calories and grams (sodium listed as milligrams). At the top it says "VERY LOW SODIUM, 35mg or less per 240mL (8fl oz).

    You can purchase larger bottles of carbonated beverages in 2 liter bottles (they also offer 1 liter though why would you buy that they cost the same as a 2 liter usually).
     
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    casinterest
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    Re: Imperial System

    Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:17 pm

    masi1157 wrote:
      Who cares? In "irish pubs" in Germany you can order something called a "pint of Guinness". It may actually be close to a pint, but legally it is 0.568l (± whatever the legal tolerance in the EU may be). It won't be much different from that in the UK (at least for the next 3 weeks).


      Gruß, masi1157



      See this where the Europeans have it good. The Imperial Pint is 20 Imperial Fluid Oz(568l), while the US pint is 16 US Fluid Oz. (473ml) Mind you the US Fluid Oz is bigger than the Imperial Oz.

      "
      An imperial fluid ounce is ​1⁄20 of an imperial pint, ​1⁄160 of an imperial gallon or approximately 28.41 ml. A US fluid ounce is ​1⁄16 of a US fluid pint and ​1⁄128 of a US liquid gallon or approximately 29.57 ml, making it about 4% larger than the imperial fluid ounce."

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_ounce

      Who needs metric ?
      Where ever you go, there you are.
       
      Gemuser
      Posts: 4983
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:36 am

      KentB27 wrote:
      I seriously doubt that the US will ever fully convert to the metric system. It would be very costly and take years to completely convert. One huge hurdle I see is that changing all of the highway markings and signs to kilometers would be a massively time consuming and expensive undertaking that realistically isn't necessary.

      This furphy again! It is complete and utter nonsence. You do it the way we did it in Australia. You replace all speed sign on the usual basis just using the new units in a new design. As the universal design for kilometers [in speed] is the numerals in a red circle just use that. So what if it takes years to convert all signs? Distance is a bit more difficult as you do have to add "km" to such signs but in most cases it just a simple paint job, although some out of the way places did require some imagination on the part of road crews.

      Gemuser
       
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      DocLightning
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:58 am

      KentB27 wrote:
      I seriously doubt that the US will ever fully convert to the metric system. It would be very costly and take years to completely convert. One huge hurdle I see is that changing all of the highway markings and signs to kilometers would be a massively time consuming and expensive undertaking that realistically isn't necessary.

      '
      They have to be replaced on some periodic schedule, anyway. It doesn't all have to be done overnight. It used to be that US101 in CA had no mile markers or exit numbers back around the turn of the century, but now it does.

      You'd start by replacing signs as they need to be replaced with signs that give both miles and km. You'd teach children metric in school and keep them drilled on it. Over a period of 20 years, the mile signs go away and kilometer signs come into play.

      The bigger challenge will be aviation. Currently, aviation flight levels are given in thousands of feet and speeds in knots. The whole world would have to switch at once or you'd wind up with confusion and airplanes having loss of separation.

      One area that would be a bit tough is swimming (I'm a swimmer). In most of the world, the two competitive swimming pool formats are either short-course or long-course meters (25 or 50m). In the US, there is a third format, 25 yards (short-course yards) that is used for high school and NCAA swimming (I've only ever seen one long-course yards pool and it was actually a 50m pool with a bulkhead placed at 50 yards). The trouble here is that swimming pools are expensive and it's not a simple prospect to stretch a 25 yard pool to 25 meter pool. Many new pools are being built as 25 yards x 25 or 50 meters. But I can see that being inconvenient for HS and college sports programs.
      -Doc Lightning-

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      flyingclrs727
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:56 am

      casinterest wrote:
      flyingturtle wrote:
      I just had to think about the paper sizes used in Europe and in other places.

      A0 is one meter squared.
      A1 is 0.5 m^2.
      A2 is 0.25 m^2.

      And so on.

      And the sides have always the same relative lengths, namely a : b = 1 : sqrt(2).

      I need to send a letter with 9 A4 sheets, and given that my letter paper weighs 75 grams per square meter, I can easily figure out the weight.

      Why the US still uses the those funny formats... US Letter, US Legal, whatever... is beyond me.


      David


      You still use paper?


      Prior to the Reagan administration the US government had it's own letter size that was 8' x 10.5" rather than the US business standard that is 8.5" x 11".
       
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      flyingclrs727
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:03 am

      DocLightning wrote:
      KentB27 wrote:
      I seriously doubt that the US will ever fully convert to the metric system. It would be very costly and take years to completely convert. One huge hurdle I see is that changing all of the highway markings and signs to kilometers would be a massively time consuming and expensive undertaking that realistically isn't necessary.

      '
      They have to be replaced on some periodic schedule, anyway. It doesn't all have to be done overnight. It used to be that US101 in CA had no mile markers or exit numbers back around the turn of the century, but now it does.

      You'd start by replacing signs as they need to be replaced with signs that give both miles and km. You'd teach children metric in school and keep them drilled on it. Over a period of 20 years, the mile signs go away and kilometer signs come into play.

      The bigger challenge will be aviation. Currently, aviation flight levels are given in thousands of feet and speeds in knots. The whole world would have to switch at once or you'd wind up with confusion and airplanes having loss of separation.

      One area that would be a bit tough is swimming (I'm a swimmer). In most of the world, the two competitive swimming pool formats are either short-course or long-course meters (25 or 50m). In the US, there is a third format, 25 yards (short-course yards) that is used for high school and NCAA swimming (I've only ever seen one long-course yards pool and it was actually a 50m pool with a bulkhead placed at 50 yards). The trouble here is that swimming pools are expensive and it's not a simple prospect to stretch a 25 yard pool to 25 meter pool. Many new pools are being built as 25 yards x 25 or 50 meters. But I can see that being inconvenient for HS and college sports programs.


      Texas is no longer maintaining highway mile markers. When they fade or are damaged, they are removed. Nobody needs them with GIS and GPS. Highway exit numbers are designated according to the number of miles from the Texas border. There is no way anyone is going to change the number designations on highway exits to correspond to kilometers. They are generally useful already, because it's easy to figure out the distance from an exit and to estimate time to travel.
       
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      flyingclrs727
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:37 am

      PPVRA wrote:
      Fahrenheit’s greater number of degrees between freezing and boiling is perhaps its only advantage.

      If more precision is needed, Celsius can add decimals or simply state 34-35 degrees rather than 34.5 degrees. If that decimal had much utility, people would start using it.

      The greatest utility of all, however, would be not having to convert back and forth....



      The only disadvantage I can see is if environmental controls in homes and cars were designed to be set in whole Celsius degree increments. I often find whole Farenheight degrees too big an increment. I would rather have half degree Farenheight or fifth of a degee Celcius increments.
       
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      flyingclrs727
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:14 am

      scbriml wrote:
      noviorbis77 wrote:
      We are quite happy with our beer and milk in pints over here.

      Our TV sizes in inches.

      Calculating miles per gallon.

      Driving in miles per hour.

      There is no need for the UK to change. Most people seem quite happy.


      Milk is priced per litre. Apart from beer, every other liquid is sold in litres be it orange juice, fuel, water or paint. All solid food is sold in Kg.Wi

      Calculating fuel consumption in mpg is ludicrous when you buy fuel in litres.

      There is a need to change from the stupid half-way house where we currently are with people clinging desperately to the past.



      Wine and distilled spirits are sold only in metric units in the US since the late 1970's. The standard wine or distilled spirit bottle is 750 mL. It used be the slightly smaller fifth of a US gallon. Most beer is sold in US traditional units like 12 oz, 16 oz, etc. The actual packaging is designed in mL. Individual cans of soft drinks tend to be 12 oz (355 mL). Bulk soft drinks are sold in half liters, liters, 2 liters, etc. It doesn't hurt acceptance that the metric bottles are slightly larger than the traditional measures. A half liter is slightly larger than a pint.
       
      Bostrom
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:28 am

      Gemuser wrote:
      KentB27 wrote:
      I seriously doubt that the US will ever fully convert to the metric system. It would be very costly and take years to completely convert. One huge hurdle I see is that changing all of the highway markings and signs to kilometers would be a massively time consuming and expensive undertaking that realistically isn't necessary.

      This furphy again! It is complete and utter nonsence. You do it the way we did it in Australia. You replace all speed sign on the usual basis just using the new units in a new design. As the universal design for kilometers [in speed] is the numerals in a red circle just use that. So what if it takes years to convert all signs? Distance is a bit more difficult as you do have to add "km" to such signs but in most cases it just a simple paint job, although some out of the way places did require some imagination on the part of road crews.


      Isn't distance the easiest, as those signs can just be replaced when they wear out. Having speed limits in different units sounds worse.

      DocLightning wrote:
      KentB27 wrote:
      I seriously doubt that the US will ever fully convert to the metric system. It would be very costly and take years to completely convert. One huge hurdle I see is that changing all of the highway markings and signs to kilometers would be a massively time consuming and expensive undertaking that realistically isn't necessary.

      '
      They have to be replaced on some periodic schedule, anyway. It doesn't all have to be done overnight. It used to be that US101 in CA had no mile markers or exit numbers back around the turn of the century, but now it does.

      You'd start by replacing signs as they need to be replaced with signs that give both miles and km. You'd teach children metric in school and keep them drilled on it. Over a period of 20 years, the mile signs go away and kilometer signs come into play.


      Australia has done it, Canada has done it. So I can't see why the US shouldn't be able to do it as well.

      DocLightning wrote:
      The bigger challenge will be aviation. Currently, aviation flight levels are given in thousands of feet and speeds in knots. The whole world would have to switch at once or you'd wind up with confusion and airplanes having loss of separation.


      One step in the right direction would be if North America changed to using hPa for air pressure.
       
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:32 am

      flyingclrs727 wrote:
      It doesn't hurt acceptance that the metric bottles are slightly larger than the traditional measures. A half liter is slightly larger than a pint.


      The opposite is true in the UK! A UK pint is 568ml vs 473ml for a US one.

      A US gallon is equivalent to 6 UK pints.
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      flyingwaeldar
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:38 am

      MSPNWA wrote:
      So these countries should spend untold numbers of dollars and make untold number of mistakes to switch to a less practical (in everyday use) system just because the majority of the world has it? No way. The US has it down well. Know and understand both, but use the system that works best for the situation.

      The irony of the metric system is that its main advantage (the mathematical side) is less and less relevant with modern technology. Technology is readily available and can calculate essentially anything.


      Every time this topic comes up I like to link to this video:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pikrntjcbyw

      Guess they didn't have the modern technology on hand to solve the problem quickly.
       
      noviorbis77
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:03 am

      Does global football not use yards as a unit of measurement?

      Or do European Refs say to players, you have to be x meters away from the ball?
       
      noviorbis77
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:08 am

      KentB27 wrote:
      I seriously doubt that the US will ever fully convert to the metric system. It would be very costly and take years to completely convert. One huge hurdle I see is that changing all of the highway markings and signs to kilometers would be a massively time consuming and expensive undertaking that realistically isn't necessary.


      Agreed.

      The cost or changing every road sign in the UK alone would cost hundreds of millions. Not worth the hassle and I remain unconvinced of any actual benefit.
       
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      seahawk
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:26 am

      noviorbis77 wrote:
      Does global football not use yards as a unit of measurement?

      Or do European Refs say to players, you have to be x meters away from the ball?


      They do. A penalty is called a 11m (Elfmeter) in German.
       
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      SheikhDjibouti
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:14 pm

      noviorbis77 wrote:
      Does global football not use yards as a unit of measurement?

      Or do European Refs say to players, you have to be x meters away from the ball?

      The day any referee actually measures out 10 yards precisely, is the day we will have an actual problem. Meanwhile all the ref has to say is "get back ten".
      In Europe, the players retreat 8 yards, and try to convince the ref it is actually 10 meters.
      In the UK all the foreign players retreat 8 meters, creep forward whilst the ref isn't looking, and then swear blind they were 10 yards away. :rotfl:

      However, as actual research is my thing here on a.net (despite vile rumors to the contrary), I have dug the following out, which you may find most pleasing to your point of view. :D
      I believe this is a standard (metric) UEFA pitch, which any British team playing against European opposition must conform to.

      Image

      Two things jump out at me;
      Firstly, the Penalty area is still described as an 18-yard box, even though it is measured as 16.5m (ditto the 6-yard box)
      Secondly, the goal takes the dimensions of "7.3m x 2.4m" which is obviously a reverse engineered "24 feet x 8 feet"

      In essence we have your milk bottle situation all over again. :lol:

      Here is a "proper" pitch for you. Unfortunately Wikipedia couldn't match the image sizes, so it comes out smaller. Sorry!Image
      Nothing to see here; move along please.
       
      noviorbis77
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:21 pm

      SheikhDjibouti wrote:
      noviorbis77 wrote:
      Does global football not use yards as a unit of measurement?

      Or do European Refs say to players, you have to be x meters away from the ball?

      The day any referee actually measures out 10 yards precisely, is the day we will have an actual problem. Meanwhile all the ref has to say is "get back ten".
      In Europe, the players retreat 8 yards, and try to convince the ref it is actually 10 meters.
      In the UK all the foreign players retreat 8 meters, creep forward whilst the ref isn't looking, and then swear blind they were 10 yards away. :rotfl:

      However, as actual research is my thing here on a.net (despite vile rumors to the contrary), I have dug the following out, which you may find most pleasing to your point of view. :D
      I believe this is a standard (metric) UEFA pitch, which any British team playing against European opposition must conform to.

      Image

      Two things jump out at me;
      Firstly, the Penalty area is still described as an 18-yard box, even though it is measured as 16.5m (ditto the 6-yard box)
      Secondly, the goal takes the dimensions of "7.3m x 2.4m" which is obviously a reverse engineered "24 feet x 8 feet"

      In essence we have your milk bottle situation all over again. :lol:

      Here is a "proper" pitch for you. Unfortunately Wikipedia couldn't match the image sizes, so it comes out smaller. Sorry!Image


      Whether British refs use yards or meters is up to them. The distance is the same. I use yards.

      Let and let live. If people want to use metric then fine, imperial then thats fine.

      I cannot understand how my using imperial units bothers people.
       
      masi1157
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:49 pm

      If you use miles or kilometers, gallons or liters, Celsius or Fahrenheit doesn't matter at all. It doesn't matter anyway. That is all easily converted and it seems everybody except you can do that. Where the unit system does matter a lot is obviously out of your scope, so you will be fine.


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      scbriml
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:57 pm

      noviorbis77 wrote:
      The pint of milk (from the Co-Op - one of the largest chains of small convenience stores in the UK) labels a pint of milk a pint of milk as well as giving the metric alternative written next to it.


      Quoting directly from the Weights & Measures Act of 1985
      (2) No person shall use for trade—
      (a) the ounce troy, except for the purposes of transactions in, or in articles made
      from, gold, silver or other precious metals, including transactions in gold or
      silver thread, lace or fringe, or
      (b) the carat (metric), except for the purposes of transactions in precious stones
      or pearls, or
      (c) a capacity measure of [
      F935,][
      F1070,] 125, 150 or 175 millilitres, except for the
      purposes of transactions in intoxicating liquor [
      F11
      or
      (d) the pint except for—
      (i) the purposes of the sale of draught beer or cider, or
      (ii) the purposes of the sale of milk in returnable containers


      So, the only things that can legally be sold in pints is draught beer and milk in returnable containers - i.e. a milkman delivering glass bottles of milk to your doorstep (are there even any left? I can't remember the last time I saw a milkman.)

      Supermarkets selling milk have to sell it by the litre but conveniently size it in pint equivalents to stop people who insist in living in the past from blowing a fuse.

      Your Coop milk is marked as 568ml and priced per litre.
      Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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      noviorbis77
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:09 pm

      scbriml wrote:
      noviorbis77 wrote:
      The pint of milk (from the Co-Op - one of the largest chains of small convenience stores in the UK) labels a pint of milk a pint of milk as well as giving the metric alternative written next to it.


      Quoting directly from the Weights & Measures Act of 1985
      (2) No person shall use for trade—
      (a) the ounce troy, except for the purposes of transactions in, or in articles made
      from, gold, silver or other precious metals, including transactions in gold or
      silver thread, lace or fringe, or
      (b) the carat (metric), except for the purposes of transactions in precious stones
      or pearls, or
      (c) a capacity measure of [
      F935,][
      F1070,] 125, 150 or 175 millilitres, except for the
      purposes of transactions in intoxicating liquor [
      F11
      or
      (d) the pint except for—
      (i) the purposes of the sale of draught beer or cider, or
      (ii) the purposes of the sale of milk in returnable containers


      So, the only things that can legally be sold in pints is draught beer and milk in returnable containers - i.e. a milkman delivering glass bottles of milk to your doorstep (are there even any left? I can't remember the last time I saw a milkman.)

      Supermarkets selling milk have to sell it by the litre but conveniently size it in pint equivalents to stop people who insist in living in the past from blowing a fuse.

      Your Coop milk is marked as 568ml and priced per litre.


      No my pint from the Co-Op says 1 pint on it as well as 568ml

      You are the only one who seems to be blowing a fuse.
       
      masi1157
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:42 pm

      scbriml wrote:
      Your Coop milk is marked as 568ml and priced per litre.


      ...and it is easy to identifly, which is the legal value and which is just a label: You have the large "e" (the "estimated sign") behind the legal value, but not behind the label.

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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:49 pm

      noviorbis77 wrote:
      You are the only one who seems to be blowing a fuse.


      You're the one in denial and proudly asserting your 'right' to buy a pint of milk. The facts don't back you up.

      Milk in supermarkets (even the Coop) is priced per litre.
      Image
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      Magog
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:12 pm

      It appears to be priced in liters and sold in pints.
       
      WIederling
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:31 pm

      Magog wrote:
      It appears to be priced in liters and sold in pints.


      It is priced in pints but the liter price is given as a cosumer hint. required
      to get over manufacturers trying to finagle the package size. EC
      https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic ... rective_en
      Murphy is an optimist
       
      frmrCapCadet
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:06 pm

      Measuring systems are inherently subjective.

      Systems based on 10 work well for arithmetic and based on fingers and toes.

      Days are based on how long it takes for the earth to go around the sun, rounded down to 360. Convenient in that it has factors for 2, 3, 4, 5, and 10

      Weeks and months are peculiar artifacts based on culture and religion, including lunar or other artifacts

      Temperature can be based on the freezing and boiling point of water, although no real scientific reason to do so.

      Lengths in metric theoretically were a subdivision of distances on earth - totally made up, and found to be inaccurate

      We will live with inconsistencies so long as human history endures
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      SQ22
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:34 pm

      Please note that thread will be locked if you can't stop attacking each other.
       
      masi1157
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      Re: Imperial System

      Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:58 pm

      DocLightning wrote:
      One area that would be a bit tough is swimming (I'm a swimmer). In most of the world, the two competitive swimming pool formats are either short-course or long-course meters (25 or 50m). In the US, there is a third format, 25 yards (short-course yards) that is used for high school and NCAA swimming...


      I don't see any problem there. The US can stick with their own third or fourth contest, if they wish. The problem with the imperial system is quite something else. Using your pools as an example: Let the pool be 25yards long, 15yards wide and 6feet deep. How many gallons of water do you need to fill it? You can't calculate that without a conversion factor from cubic feet to gallons. You even need the factor between feet and yards. That one is easy, I know, but it is not simply a power of 10.

      In the metric system you simple calculate length (in m) x width (in m) x depth (in m) and come up with m³. If one of the dimensions was given in cm or you want the result in l, you simply move the decimal point, but there is no conversion factor. And that is what I ment with consistent.


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      Zentraedi
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      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:39 am

      I agree. Would be logical for us to all adopt SI measurements.

      Next, if only we could get the Europeans to adopt a logical date format... yyyy-MM-DD (ISO 8601) or East Asian format is the only logical choice.
       
      masi1157
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      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:37 am

      Well the european (Is it used all over Europe?) date format is simply the exact reverse of what you call "logical", which doesn't make it completely "unlogical". I know another date format that is far less "logical" than those.


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      Zentraedi
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      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:20 am

      masi1157 wrote:
      Well the european (Is it used all over Europe?) date format is simply the exact reverse of what you call "logical", which doesn't make it completely "unlogical". I know another date format that is far less "logical" than those.


      It is NOT the exact reverse of ISO 8601. If it were, you would write today's date as "11-30-9102". BTW, how do you tell time in Europe? ss:mm:hh, right? That would align with your date format, so logically you should be expected to leverage that.

      In ISO 8601, you always write from most significant digit to least, kind of like how you normally write numbers, right? Would you ever write "one hundred twenty five" as 521? When looking at European format, seems that you go least significant -> most significant is the macro unit, while most significant -> least significant in the micro unit. Why not just be consistent throughout? If you really like this context switching, why not write the number "one million two hundred thousand three hundred" as 300.200.1 (or 300,200,1)?
       
      WIederling
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      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:38 am

      Zentraedi wrote:
      masi1157 wrote:
      Well the european (Is it used all over Europe?) date format is simply the exact reverse of what you call "logical", which doesn't make it completely "unlogical". I know another date format that is far less "logical" than those.


      It is NOT the exact reverse of ISO 8601. If it were, you would write today's date as "11-30-9102". BTW, how do you tell time in Europe? ss:mm:hh, right? That would align with your date format, so logically you should be expected to leverage that.

      In ISO 8601, you always write from most significant digit to least, kind of like how you normally write numbers, right? Would you ever write "one hundred twenty five" as 521? When looking at European format, seems that you go least significant -> most significant is the macro unit, while most significant -> least significant in the micro unit. Why not just be consistent throughout? If you really like this context switching, why not write the number "one million two hundred thousand three hundred" as 300.200.1 (or 300,200,1)?


      Why would you rearrange the order of digits in a number? This is not a Big vs Little Endian thing.

      For file naming and general logging ISO PiT format ( which ever you choose ) is to be preferred.
      Though I usually use the %Y%j ... format.
      Caveat: Anstronomy tends to require Julian dates. stumbled across that when I did stuff for SOFIA :-)
      Murphy is an optimist
       
      masi1157
      Posts: 395
      Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:57 am

      Zentraedi wrote:
      It is NOT the exact reverse of ISO 8601. If it were, you would write today's date as "11-30-9102". BTW, how do you tell time in Europe? ss:mm:hh, right? That would align with your date format, so logically you should be expected to leverage that.


      I hope you did understand though, what I was trying to say? I didn't say that the european format is perfect, preferrable or completely logical. It is simply more logical than mm-dd-yyyy. What you are trying to put in my mouth here is just absurd. Of course one wouldn't reverse the digits within a number.


      Gruß, masi1157
      508 different segments on 100 airlines to 210 airports in 55 countries
       
      Zentraedi
      Posts: 617
      Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:30 pm

      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:55 am

      WIederling wrote:
      Why would you rearrange the order of digits in a number?


      Consistency of order.

      If you normally read from most significant digit to least, why would you flip the order for dates? Why would you not keep it consistent across clock times?

      masi1157 wrote:
      I hope you did understand though, what I was trying to say? I didn't say that the european format is perfect, preferrable or completely logical. It is simply more logical than mm-dd-yyyy. What you are trying to put in my mouth here is just absurd. Of course one wouldn't reverse the digits within a number.


      Why even bother to defend the european format over the US format? They're both bad. No sense in saying "I'll stick with bad format #2", when you clearly have another superior format at hand.

      masi1157 wrote:
      Of course one wouldn't reverse the digits within a number.


      Why not? Why would you reverse the order for date - month - year for when you normally read/write from most significant to least? If you're going to reverse the order amongst date delimiters, why not with normal number delimiters? e.g. one million two hundred thousand three hundred becomes 300.200.1

      To step back, the greater theme in this thread speaks to dropping antiquated measurement systems for more logical, consistent ones. There is an analogue here in the time format.
       
      masi1157
      Posts: 395
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      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:06 am

      Zentraedi wrote:
      Why even bother to defend the european format over the US format? They're both bad. No sense in saying "I'll stick with bad format #2", when you clearly have another superior format at hand.


      Huh? I use yyyy-mm-dd quite frequently, for file numbering and things like that. But I live in a country where dd-mm-yyyy is very common. yyyy-mm-dd would be more consequent, sure. But still I am glad people here use that and not the much worse mm-dd-yyyy. Nothing more did I say. But it's ok if you try to put more in my mouth, just go on.


      Gruß, masi1157
      508 different segments on 100 airlines to 210 airports in 55 countries
       
      ChrisKen
      Posts: 752
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      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:09 am

      Zentraedi wrote:
      WIederling wrote:
      Why would you rearrange the order of digits in a number?


      Consistency of order.

      If you normally read from most significant digit to least, why would you flip the order for dates? Why would you not keep it consistent across clock times?

      Why do you assume the year is the most significant digit? In general daily usage, it's often irrelevant.
      As a previous user has already stated, the globe generally uses one of the two main conventions - dd-mm-yyyy or yyyy-mm-dd these are both common and very easily understood regardless of which way around they are. Only the North Amercian's do their own thing with their easily confused oddball mm-dd-yyyy format. Although this is mainly used domestically, in international dealings they tend use one of the two main "global" formats or simply use words instead of digits.

      You'll probably find your preference is mainly due to the orientation in which you read your own language. left to right (large parts of Europe/West) vs right to left (large parts of Asia)
      Last edited by ChrisKen on Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
       
      Magog
      Posts: 850
      Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:11 am

      masi1157 wrote:
      But still I am glad people here use that and not the much worse mm-dd-yyyy.

      Why is the latter much worse?
       
      ChrisKen
      Posts: 752
      Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:17 am

      Magog wrote:
      masi1157 wrote:
      But still I am glad people here use that and not the much worse mm-dd-yyyy.

      Why is the latter much worse?

      Because the month and day can be easily confused by an international audience in all but the latter part of the month. day-month-year & year-month-day are easily distinguished. The month and day are out of sequence in the US digit format.

      2-8-1997
      8-2-1997
      1997-8-2
       
      User avatar
      Boair
      Posts: 111
      Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:03 pm

      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:31 am

      ChrisKen wrote:
      Zentraedi wrote:
      WIederling wrote:
      Why would you rearrange the order of digits in a number?


      Consistency of order.

      If you normally read from most significant digit to least, why would you flip the order for dates? Why would you not keep it consistent across clock times?

      Why do you assume the year is the most significant digit? In general daily usage, it's often irrelevant.
      As a previous user has already stated, the globe generally uses one of the two main conventions - dd-mm-yyyy or yyyy-mm-dd these are both common and very easily understood regardless of which way around they are. Only the North Amercian's do their own thing with their easily confused oddball mm-dd-yyyy format. Although this is mainly used domestically, in international dealings they tend use one of the two main "global" formats or simply use words instead of digits.

      You'll probably find your preference is mainly due to the orientation in which you read your own language. left to right (large parts of Europe/West) vs right to left (large parts of Asia)


      Exactly.
      For me, the day is usually more important than the year and I often use only DD/MM.
      I live in a country where we use both DD/MM/YYYY and YYYY/MM/DD because people here speak french (left to right) and arabic (right to left) so it really depend of the language and I wouldn't say one is better than the other.
      A313 A318 A319 A320 A321 A330 A343 A380 B734 B73H B738 B744 B752 B763 B77E B77W B788 B789 AT72 DH8D MD88 E145 E190 IL96 PC6
       
      User avatar
      SheikhDjibouti
      Posts: 1718
      Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:36 am

      Zentraedi wrote:
      Next, if only we could get the Europeans to adopt a logical date format... yyyy-MM-DD (ISO 8601)

      Why only the Europeans? Is it already universally applied in the US and Canada? And elsewhere?
      Is Europe the only place clinging on to an ancient system?
      Seriously?
      masi1157 wrote:
      I know another date format that is far less "logical" than those.

      Zentraedi wrote:
      In ISO 8601, you always write from most significant digit to least, kind of like how you normally write numbers, right? Would you ever write "one hundred twenty five" as 521? When looking at European format, seems that you go least significant -> most significant is the macro unit, while most significant -> least significant in the micro unit. Why not just be consistent throughout? If you really like this context switching, why not write the number "one million two hundred thousand three hundred" as 300.200.1 (or 300,200,1)?

      ISO 8601 is for data consistency, and is great for what it does.

      However, the European format addresses the needs of the ordinary mortal, and has done so since the days when "science" was a just hobby for rich noblemen with time on their hands. (time on their hands..... geddit? :lol: )

      It addresses the needs of the ordinary person exactly because it stresses the "most significant" digit first. i.e. the day.

      I could be speaking to a friend: "Let's do this again next Sunday"
      Him:"Next Sunday,?"
      Me:"Yep, Sunday the 17th"
      Him;"I'll just check my diary; we are still in March aren't we?"
      Me; "Yep, so we'll go for Sunday 17th of March"
      Him: "So, it's a date then; we'll do this again on Sunday 17th March, 2019 or 17-03-2019"
      Me: "You bring your ex-wife, I'll bring my girlfriend, and we can swap over at half-time" ;)

      Isn't that what everybody does?
      (the dates thing, not the wife-swapping....) :spin:


      I suppose there is lesser case for ISO 8601 if you're planning something more distant, where the "most significant" part starts with the year.
      "Let's do this again next year (2020)"
      "How about some time in March"
      "Is the 17th good for you?"
      "So, it's a date then; we'll do this again on 17-03-2020"
      Oops, I seem to have reverted to European format.... sorry! :white:

      And I'll finish with an article I read last week in a newspaper dated the 7th....., no my bad, it was written in the NYT and hence dated March......
      Nothing to see here; move along please.
       
      Magog
      Posts: 850
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      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:40 am

      ChrisKen wrote:
      Magog wrote:
      masi1157 wrote:
      But still I am glad people here use that and not the much worse mm-dd-yyyy.

      Why is the latter much worse?

      Because the month and day can be easily confused by an international audience in all but the latter part of the month. day-month-year & year-month-day are easily distinguished. The month and day are out of sequence in the US digit format.

      2-8-1997
      8-2-1997
      1997-8-2

      That doesn’t make it inherently worse. Lots of things are widely adopted but are not better.
       
      masi1157
      Posts: 395
      Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:58 am

      Magog wrote:
      That doesn’t make it inherently worse. Lots of things are widely adopted but are not better.


      Oh sure. It can't be worse. It is great because it is american. I forgot, sorry.


      Gruß, masi1157
      508 different segments on 100 airlines to 210 airports in 55 countries
       
      Magog
      Posts: 850
      Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:04 pm

      masi1157 wrote:
      Magog wrote:
      That doesn’t make it inherently worse. Lots of things are widely adopted but are not better.


      Oh sure. It can't be worse. It is great because it is american. I forgot, sorry.


      Gruß, masi1157

      Why are you being rude? I’m looking for an actual answer, which you have yet to provide.
       
      masi1157
      Posts: 395
      Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:13 pm

      The answer has been given several times yet. You want me to repeat it?


      Gruß, masi1157
      508 different segments on 100 airlines to 210 airports in 55 countries
       
      Magog
      Posts: 850
      Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:24 pm

      masi1157 wrote:
      The answer has been given several times yet. You want me to repeat it?


      Gruß, masi1157

      Yes, please.
       
      User avatar
      trpmb6
      Posts: 2621
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      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:33 pm

      I use yyyy_mm_dd_description.ext when organizing certain files that are helpful for filing reasons. Otherwise I use mm-dd-yyyy because that's how it is spoken in language. When describing the current date I would say "It is March 11th, 2019" not "It is the 11th day of March in the year 2019" or "It is the year 2019, the third month March and the eleventh day." or something similar. I can understand people saying "2/8/2019 is indistinguishable to 8/2/2019" but that's really no different than saying 2/2019/8 or 8/2019/2 or 2019/8/2 or 2019/2/8. Without any context of the order you can only definitively state the year from that set. Otherwise you are still making a guess (without any outside knowledge of the system being used) as to what month and day they are referring to. Hence, it is better to just state the month in word format so that there can be no ambiguity.
       
      slider
      Posts: 7385
      Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:44 pm

      Businesses may use their own date formats, to trpmb6's point above, for filing and reference purposes.

      But to avoid any ambiguity, I've always used DD-MMM-YEAR format, such as 11 Mar 2019. Why THAT isn't the universal standard is beyond me. Works for the military.
       
      slider
      Posts: 7385
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      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:48 pm

      Aesma wrote:
      Magog wrote:
      tommy1808 wrote:

      keyword "claimed".

      The honor may go to Russia (Alexander Moschaiski) or France (Clément Ader) and in todays world the Wright Brothers would probably have been on the hook for patent infringement (Octave Chanute).

      For kicks... all of them happend after the first horse powered flight (Jean Marie Le Bris).

      best regards
      Thomas

      Sorry, but I’ll go with the consensus of historians. Regardless, the absolute nature of Aesma’s first sentence doesn’t play well with the uncertainty of the second sentence.


      Planes were invented long before one flew.


      Ask Leonardo daVinci.

      But I'm with Wright Brothers on this one, because of the unassailable fact that it constituted *controlled* flight. Sorry for the digression from the measurement systems discussion...

      One other thing that sort of cracks me up--American football is in yards, baseball in feet. Golf is in yards but it was also invented in Europe, makes sense. Auto racing is all in miles as the metric.
       
      User avatar
      SheikhDjibouti
      Posts: 1718
      Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:15 pm

      DocLightning wrote:
      One area that would be a bit tough is swimming (I'm a swimmer). In most of the world, the two competitive swimming pool formats are either short-course or long-course meters (25 or 50m). In the US, there is a third format, 25 yards (short-course yards) that is used for high school and NCAA swimming (I've only ever seen one long-course yards pool and it was actually a 50m pool with a bulkhead placed at 50 yards). The trouble here is that swimming pools are expensive and it's not a simple prospect to stretch a 25 yard pool to 25 meter pool. Many new pools are being built as 25 yards x 25 or 50 meters. But I can see that being inconvenient for HS and college sports programs.

      Tough for the builders of swimming pools, or tough for US athletes?
      25 yards is only 22.86m, so a US swimmer competing in an Olympic sized pool would have to add a couple of strokes before making the turn.
      As a swimmer yourself, can you say if competitive swimmers arrange their stroke length to fit in exactly with the pool length, or do they simply cram in as much effort as possible and then reach for the finish line when they actually get there?

      I know that when I swim, the end of the pool always seems further away than it should be. :lol:

      Is it just the case that a US swimmer might run out of steam at say 91.44 metres and hence needs additional stamina training to maintain full performance over the full 100m.
      Do European swimmers in US pools regularly crack their skulls on the end wall because it arrives too fast?

      Is that the extent of the problem?
      Nothing to see here; move along please.
       
      masi1157
      Posts: 395
      Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

      Re: Imperial System

      Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:14 pm

      trpmb6 wrote:
      When describing the current date I would say "It is March 11th, 2019" not "It is the 11th day of March in the year 2019" or "It is the year 2019, the third month March and the eleventh day." or something similar.


      That again depends on the language. In german we say "der elfte März" (the eleventh (of) March). It is the same in spanish (I am currently in Spain) and several other languages.

      slider wrote:
      But to avoid any ambiguity, I've always used DD-MMM-YEAR format, such as 11 Mar 2019. Why THAT isn't the universal standard is beyond me. Works for the military.


      And here again it depends on the language. There are many more languages than just english in the world (and in Europe). While you might easily identify "Apr" (April, german), "Avr" (Avril, french) or "Abr" (Abril, spanish), what about the polish "kwiecien"? For all of them the April is the 4. month of the year and they all would understand "12.04.2019" as the same 12. day in April this year.


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      508 different segments on 100 airlines to 210 airports in 55 countries

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