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trpmb6
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Re: Imperial System

Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:18 pm

masi1157 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
When describing the current date I would say "It is March 11th, 2019" not "It is the 11th day of March in the year 2019" or "It is the year 2019, the third month March and the eleventh day." or something similar.


That again depends on the language. In german we say "der elfte März" (the eleventh (of) March). It is the same in spanish (I am currently in Spain) and several other languages.

slider wrote:
But to avoid any ambiguity, I've always used DD-MMM-YEAR format, such as 11 Mar 2019. Why THAT isn't the universal standard is beyond me. Works for the military.


And here again it depends on the language. There are many more languages than just english in the world (and in Europe). While you might easily identify "Apr" (April, german), "Avr" (Avril, french) or "Abr" (Abril, spanish), what about the polish "kwiecien"? For all of them the April is the 4. month of the year and they all would understand "12.04.2019" as the same 12. day in April this year.


Gruß, masi1157


Which is perfectly fine. I have in the past in my engineering roles dealt with engineers across the world. Germany, France, UK, India. Somehow we all know what each other is describing and the world keeps turning.

Besides, time is just relative anyways.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Imperial System

Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:12 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
I use yyyy_mm_dd_description.ext when organizing certain files that are helpful for filing reasons.


Easily the best format to allow easy sorting of data or files.

trpmb6 wrote:
Otherwise I use mm-dd-yyyy because that's how it is spoken in language. When describing the current date I would say "It is March 11th, 2019" not "It is the 11th day of March in the year 2019" or "It is the year 2019, the third month March and the eleventh day." or something similar.


But many (most?) outside the US simply say "11th March 2019" (as opposed to some flowery Shakespearean language :wink2: ).
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trpmb6
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Re: Imperial System

Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:43 pm

scbriml wrote:

trpmb6 wrote:
Otherwise I use mm-dd-yyyy because that's how it is spoken in language. When describing the current date I would say "It is March 11th, 2019" not "It is the 11th day of March in the year 2019" or "It is the year 2019, the third month March and the eleventh day." or something similar.


But many (most?) outside the US simply say "11th March 2019" (as opposed to some flowery Shakespearean language :wink2: ).



Quite right, which is why I think the differences exist. I think we write out the date in the format that our brain is processing it in. I think of things in english in my brain and therefore write it out MM/DD/YYYY. I perfectly understand why those who speak a different language would organize differently. Ditto for languages where you may read from right to left or from top to bottom.

Somehow the world has made it this far. Doubtless if I suggested we move to utilizing Julian dates or some arbitrary Star Date someone would find a reason to oppose it.
 
Magog
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Re: Imperial System

Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:01 pm

Magog wrote:
masi1157 wrote:
The answer has been given several times yet. You want me to repeat it?


Gruß, masi1157

Yes, please.

Still waiting...
 
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scbriml
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Re: Imperial System

Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:23 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Quite right, which is why I think the differences exist. I think we write out the date in the format that our brain is processing it in. I think of things in english in my brain and therefore write it out MM/DD/YYYY.


Wait, I think in English (real English that is, not that bastardised version from the West side of the Atlantic :wink2: ) and therefore write it out as dd/mm/yyyy! One of us is wrong! :spin:
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Imperial System

Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:27 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
I think we write out the date in the format that our brain is processing it in. I think of things in english in my brain and therefore write it out MM/DD/YYYY. I perfectly understand why those who speak a different language would organize differently. Ditto for languages where you may read from right to left or from top to bottom.

I also think of things in English in my brain, and therefore write it out DD/MM/YYYY.

I believe what you meant to say was "I think of things in American-English..." :duck:

That just leaves the chicken-and-egg problem.

Do you think of it that way around because it is written the way it is, or vice versa?

It is easy to reinforce a belief when everybody around you is singing the same song.

It is the same with numbers that follow 100.
You think of the number of pax on a 737, mutter the words "one hundred eighty-nine" and write 189
I think of the number of pax on a 737, mutter the words "one hundred and eighty-nine" and yet still write 189.
It's a bloomin' miracle.

How the French manage is something else entirely.... :rotfl:
I believe it is something like "cent quatre-vingt neuf" which is 100 + (4 x 20) + 9
But in order to be certain, I wrote "one hundred and eighty nine" into Google Translate; apparently the French translation is "189" :banghead:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
masi1157
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Re: Imperial System

Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:44 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
How the French manage is something else entirely....


True. And the germans write 189, but say hundertneunundachtzig, which would be "hundrednineandeighty" (in one word, of course).


Gruß, masi1157
508 different segments on 100 airlines to 211 airports in 55 countries
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Imperial System

Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:51 pm

:white: Haha caught red handed. I concede!
 
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casinterest
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Re: Imperial System

Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:59 pm

scbriml wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Quite right, which is why I think the differences exist. I think we write out the date in the format that our brain is processing it in. I think of things in english in my brain and therefore write it out MM/DD/YYYY.


Wait, I think in English (real English that is, not that bastardised version from the West side of the Atlantic :wink2: ) and therefore write it out as dd/mm/yyyy! One of us is wrong! :spin:


Look , we remember you all on our independence day.
Fourth of July.

The rest of the year, to hell with it. :)
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Imperial System

Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:10 pm

slider wrote:
Businesses may use their own date formats, to trpmb6's point above, for filing and reference purposes.

But to avoid any ambiguity, I've always used DD-MMM-YEAR format, such as 11 Mar 2019. Why THAT isn't the universal standard is beyond me. Works for the military.


That does solve the ambiguity of which is the day and which is the month. Even if months are not labelled the same across the world you know it is not the 11th month. And when you schedule an appointment adding the day of the week gives you what amounts to error checking. The numeral day of the month and the nominal (?) day of the week need to line up, or you know a mistake was made. I always do that with appointments, saved the bacon several times.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Imperial System

Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:21 pm

casinterest wrote:
scbriml wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Quite right, which is why I think the differences exist. I think we write out the date in the format that our brain is processing it in. I think of things in english in my brain and therefore write it out MM/DD/YYYY.


Wait, I think in English (real English that is, not that bastardised version from the West side of the Atlantic :wink2: ) and therefore write it out as dd/mm/yyyy! One of us is wrong! :spin:


Look , we remember you all on our independence day.
Fourth of July.

The rest of the year, to hell with it. :)


:rotfl: this truly made me laugh out loud
 
petertenthije
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Re: Imperial System

Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:40 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
But in order to be certain, I wrote "one hundred and eighty nine" into Google Translate; apparently the French translation is "189" :banghead:
Even Google can’t figure out French pronounced numbers.
Attamottamotta!
 
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Boair
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Re: Imperial System

Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:38 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
How the French manage is something else entirely.... :rotfl:
I believe it is something like "cent quatre-vingt neuf" which is 100 + (4 x 20) + 9
But in order to be certain, I wrote "one hundred and eighty nine" into Google Translate; apparently the French translation is "189" :banghead:


You got it right !
199 is even worse: "cent quatre-vingt dix neuf" which is 100 + (4 x 20) + 10 + 9
I never understood why we do it like that, belgians say "cent nonante neuf" wich is 100 + 99 and make a lot more sense.
A313 A318 A319 A320 A321 A330 A343 A380 B734 B73H B738 B744 B752 B763 B77E B77W B788 B789 AT72 DH8D MD88 E145 E190 IL96 PC6
 
Bostrom
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Re: Imperial System

Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:55 pm

Boair wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
How the French manage is something else entirely.... :rotfl:
I believe it is something like "cent quatre-vingt neuf" which is 100 + (4 x 20) + 9
But in order to be certain, I wrote "one hundred and eighty nine" into Google Translate; apparently the French translation is "189" :banghead:


You got it right !
199 is even worse: "cent quatre-vingt dix neuf" which is 100 + (4 x 20) + 10 + 9
I never understood why we do it like that, belgians say "cent nonante neuf" wich is 100 + 99 and make a lot more sense.


Sounds logical compared to Danish, 199 is "hundred ni og halvfems", halvfems being short for "halvfem sinds tyvende". In English that would be "hundred nine and half five times twenty" (100 + 9 + (4.5 * 20)).
 
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casinterest
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Re: Imperial System

Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:58 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Wait, I think in English (real English that is, not that bastardised version from the West side of the Atlantic :wink2: ) and therefore write it out as dd/mm/yyyy! One of us is wrong! :spin:


Look , we remember you all on our independence day.
Fourth of July.

The rest of the year, to hell with it. :)


:rotfl: this truly made me laugh out loud


Next thing you are going to tell me that eleven-nine is just as important as nine-eleven.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Imperial System

Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:29 pm

casinterest wrote:
Look , we remember you all on our independence day.
Fourth of July.

The rest of the year, to hell with it. :)


Ooh, the burn! :flamed:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Zentraedi
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Re: Imperial System

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:35 am

masi1157 wrote:
Huh? I use yyyy-mm-dd quite frequently, for file numbering and things like that. But I live in a country where dd-mm-yyyy is very common. yyyy-mm-dd would be more consequent, sure. But still I am glad people here use that and not the much worse mm-dd-yyyy. Nothing more did I say. But it's ok if you try to put more in my mouth, just go on.


No need to make this personal. Think you are getting caught up on the personal vs general sense of "you". Could very well have said "why would one use"

In any case, I don't believe you nor anyone else has made a strong, consistent argument for why the US format is "much worse" than the European.

ChrisKen wrote:
Why do you assume the year is the most significant digit? In general daily usage, it's often irrelevant.


It's a specific phrase used in mathematics that most people learn in elementary school.
It means "bigger numbers", because obviously the larger values are going be most important in determining range or scope. Would disagree on irrelevance since it's actually embedded into context.

ChrisKen wrote:
As a previous user has already stated, the globe generally uses one of the two main conventions - dd-mm-yyyy or yyyy-mm-dd these are both common and very easily understood regardless of which way around they are. Only the North Amercian's do their own thing with their easily confused oddball mm-dd-yyyy format. Although this is mainly used domestically, in international dealings they tend use one of the two main "global" formats or simply use words instead of digits.


"Because we use it" is not a strong justification for why it should be used.

When it comes right down to it, the European date/time format is an illogical, inconsistent format. It's funny because the only defense I see of that is double down the same logic Americans use to justify their format.

ChrisKen wrote:
You'll probably find your preference is mainly due to the orientation in which you read your own language. left to right (large parts of Europe/West) vs right to left (large parts of Asia)


That's the thing. Pointed this out over and over, but the European date format is not consistent with the way you write numbers in general or even with how you write time.
Look at Asia, where they write left to right, right to left and top to bottom. Regardless of orientation, dates will still be written from most significant digit to least which is in alignment with how numbers are written in general.



SheikhDjibouti wrote:
ISO 8601 is for data consistency, and is great for what it does.

However, the European format addresses the needs of the ordinary mortal, and has done so since the days when "science" was a just hobby for rich noblemen with time on their hands. (time on their hands..... geddit? :lol: )


ISO 8601 works well enough for people in east Asia. Perfectly normal to say "2019年3月11日".

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
It addresses the needs of the ordinary person exactly because it stresses the "most significant" digit first. i.e. the day.


When you get down to it, this is the logic that Americans use to justify the US system. Colloquially, you're used to it.


SheikhDjibouti wrote:
I could be speaking to a friend: "Let's do this again next Sunday"
Him:"Next Sunday,?"
Me:"Yep, Sunday the 17th"
Him;"I'll just check my diary; we are still in March aren't we?"
Me; "Yep, so we'll go for Sunday 17th of March"
Him: "So, it's a date then; we'll do this again on Sunday 17th March, 2019 or 17-03-2019"
Me: "You bring your ex-wife, I'll bring my girlfriend, and we can swap over at half-time" ;)


Not really making a point here. You could directly translate that into Japanese and each successive round you'll end up with ISO 8601. In the context of your dialog, it's really just an arbitrary transcription. Things that are prepended and be dropped just as easily as appended.
To look at it another way, some languages to pre-fix or post-fix adjectives. Based your example, you would probably make the case for why English should switch to post-fix adjectives just because it's easier for you to drop what comes after.
 
Olddog
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Re: Imperial System

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:46 am

Well being french and a pervert I use DD MM YYYY when i write a letter to a client, but I use YYYYMMDD-X for my invoices.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
tommy1808
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Re: Imperial System

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:58 am

scbriml wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
I use yyyy_mm_dd_description.ext when organizing certain files that are helpful for filing reasons.


Easily the best format to allow easy sorting of data or files..


It is also the only correct way, i.e. ISO 8601.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
WIederling
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Re: Imperial System

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:31 am

Boair wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
How the French manage is something else entirely.... :rotfl:
I believe it is something like "cent quatre-vingt neuf" which is 100 + (4 x 20) + 9
But in order to be certain, I wrote "one hundred and eighty nine" into Google Translate; apparently the French translation is "189" :banghead:


You got it right !
199 is even worse: "cent quatre-vingt dix neuf" which is 100 + (4 x 20) + 10 + 9
I never understood why we do it like that, belgians say "cent nonante neuf" wich is 100 + 99 and make a lot more sense.


199 : Latin ICC i.e. -1 + 100 + 100
Murphy is an optimist
 
masi1157
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Re: Imperial System

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:33 am

WIederling wrote:
199 : Latin ICC i.e. -1 + 100 + 100


It is roman, not latin, and it is CXCIX:
100+(-10+100)+(-1+10)


Gruß, masi1157
508 different segments on 100 airlines to 211 airports in 55 countries
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Imperial System

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:47 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
Why do you assume the year is the most significant digit? In general daily usage, it's often irrelevant.
Zentraedi wrote:
It's a specific phrase used in mathematics that most people learn in elementary school.
It means "bigger numbers",

I'm so glad you haven't resorted to cheap personal attacks. Much. :roll:

I would answer your other points, but whereas some people only learned mathematics in elementary school, I learned both math and common sense.

The most significant element of a date in ordinary usage is the day. ChrisKen used a similar phrase "general daily use".
Sometimes that literally means the day of the week (next Thursday), and sometimes it means a truncated date (i.e. on the 17th)

The most significant date in historical references is typically the year.

A notable exception listed earlier was "The Fourth of July", which doesn't sit quite so easily with 7/4

Another notable exception is 9/11, which has a double-entendre. Even Europeans use the term, and then have to think twice about what it actually means.

In neither case is math the primary concern.

Image
Thx wikipedia, again
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Imperial System

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:53 pm

masi1157 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
199 : Latin ICC i.e. -1 + 100 + 100

It is roman, not latin, and it is CXCIX:
100+(-10+100)+(-1+10)
Gruß, masi1157

It was pure joy to watch BBC television programs slowly work their way towards the new millennium
MCMXCVIII
MCMXCIX
MM
:bouncy:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Imperial System

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:01 pm

As I said earlier, I love this discussion and the arguments and self righteous protestations that come from it. Imperial versus metric are a lot like languages. English is obviously the superior language as it has been adopted by much of the world as the standard for business etc. However that does not negate the use of a different language in any country. Translation is fairly simple (though not as straightforward as with measurements) and a lot of errors are created due to the need for translations, does that mean the world should/must move to a single language?

Regarding SI and metric, I will note that there are metric measurements that are non-SI but permitted for use with SI, and others that are deprecated, but people still commonly use them in metric nations. And that is fine, people use what they are comfortable with.

Additionally Latitude and Longitude and the idea that a compass has 360 degrees and a day has 24 hours is relatively "Imperial" i.e. not based on a standard 10 base-scale and so somewhat unscientific (even though it was developed using the best science at the time). People in the past just used what they thought was best, what worked and what they could agree on. If "metric", if the idea behind it, is so superior to everything that all measurement systems should follow it, why doesn't the scientific community push for 100 or 1000 point compass systems? Or move the day to a 10 hour/100 minute system?

The truth is because as long as the people and the world can understand the measurement, and the measurement is defined and specific, it is perfectly fine to use. The discussion is great, the reasoning for a single system is fine, but the requirement to only use one is unnecessary in the grand scheme of things. It will probably happen but the one thing that will probably keep Imperial around more than anything else (and it was noted earlier), Imperial units sound better in song and writings for people than metric! :spin: :wave:

Tugg
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WIederling
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Re: Imperial System

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:07 pm

masi1157 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
199 : Latin ICC i.e. -1 + 100 + 100


It is roman, not latin, and it is CXCIX:
100+(-10+100)+(-1+10)

thanks for the hint.:-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Imperial System

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:26 pm

Tugger wrote:
Additionally Latitude and Longitude and the idea that a compass has 360 degrees and a day has 24 hours is relatively "Imperial" i.e. not based on a standard 10 base-scale and so somewhat unscientific (even though it was developed using the best science at the time). People in the past just used what they thought was best, what worked and what they could agree on. If "metric", if the idea behind it, is so superior to everything that all measurement systems should follow it, why doesn't the scientific community push for 100 or 1000 point compass systems? Or move the day to a 10 hour/100 minute system?

Tugg


Tugg! You know not what you've done!

I had thought this thread was on the verges of dying off but now we're sure to see another hundred posts about eliminating the 24 hour system, changing latitude and longitudes and that every runway in the world needs to be repainted.
 
WIederling
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Re: Imperial System

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:47 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Tugg


Tugg! You know not what you've done!
.

<Dolphin laughter, prolonged>
Murphy is an optimist
 
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speedygonzales
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Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:53 am

The only british gibberish unit that makes any sense is the mile, which is defined as how far an english car goes before it breaks down.
Ignorance kills. :tombstone:
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:06 am

ChrisKen wrote:
Zentraedi wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Why would you rearrange the order of digits in a number?


Consistency of order.

If you normally read from most significant digit to least, why would you flip the order for dates? Why would you not keep it consistent across clock times?

Why do you assume the year is the most significant digit? In general daily usage, it's often irrelevant.
As a previous user has already stated, the globe generally uses one of the two main conventions - dd-mm-yyyy or yyyy-mm-dd these are both common and very easily understood regardless of which way around they are. Only the North Amercian's do their own thing with their easily confused oddball mm-dd-yyyy format. Although this is mainly used domestically, in international dealings they tend use one of the two main "global" formats or simply use words instead of digits.

You'll probably find your preference is mainly due to the orientation in which you read your own language. left to right (large parts of Europe/West) vs right to left (large parts of Asia)


Does anyone else here have to deal with Julian dates? I have to deal with them quite often. Fortunately there's usually a calendar nearby that lists Julian dates.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:52 pm

Money, one of the most important markers in our everyday life, does not lend itself to uniform standards. And oddly finance still is, for the moment, a very English-centric thing. Incidentally there is some evidence that markers on clay may have preceded actual coins in 'international' trade. If so digital banking is just returning to our roots. Anyway I have enjoyed this thread.
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WIederling
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Re: Imperial System

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:32 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Does anyone else here have to deal with Julian dates? I have to deal with them quite often. Fortunately there's usually a calendar nearby that lists Julian dates.

(radio)astronomy works by Julian date. We had to work that into stuff for SOFIA backend data logging and control.
Murphy is an optimist

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