TTailedTiger
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Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:26 am

I don't want to derail the main threads with talking about the political stunts some countries and airlines are pulling with grounding the 737Max. Singapore has even banned the type. The debris from the Ethiopian crash is probably still hot to the touch yet these countries think they already know what the problem is. Nevermind that several experts have already said that MCAS would not be active at the altitude and configuration of the Ethiopian flight.

If the investigations conclude that Boeing didn't build a deathtrap and they are not the primary reason for the crashes, then I believe the FAA must punish these entities somehow. The airlines and nations that grounded the 737Max and made dubious claims should have their landing and overflight rights to the US suspended for no less than one year. Any slots held at airports will be revoked and sold to the next qualified highest bidder. These entities need to understand that are consequences for unfounded actions and not waiting for the results of an investigation.
 
1836Sam
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:30 am

Um ... OK.

Preaching restraint with regard to grounding the aircraft, then proposing that airlines (or countries) who have selectively banned the use lose overflight rights for a year.

Good Lord.
 
Olddog
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:12 am

The FAA will be already busy working on its own reputation....
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:16 am

1836Sam wrote:
Um ... OK.

Preaching restraint with regard to grounding the aircraft, then proposing that airlines (or countries) who have selectively banned the use lose overflight rights for a year.

Good Lord.


It's sort of the same concept some states use when it comes to civil suits. If you sue me and make a baseless claim and either the judge dismisses the case or a jury finds me not liable and you lose then you could be on the hook for my legal bills. Actions have consequences.
 
winginit
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:41 am

This is certainly an... odd post. Let's jump into it I guess?

TTailedTiger wrote:
I don't want to derail the main threads with talking about the political stunts some countries and airlines are pulling with grounding the 737Max. Singapore has even banned the type. The debris from the Ethiopian crash is probably still hot to the touch yet these countries think they already know what the problem is. Nevermind that several experts have already said that MCAS would not be active at the altitude and configuration of the Ethiopian flight.


How exactly are these political stunts now? What possible political gain is there for say Singapore to take the steps that they did apart from playing it super safe which is essentially what they always do? Also, none of the countries who have grounded the MAX have said that the equipment is necessarily to blame for this accident. Again, they're simply being extremely cautious and to some probably over cautious.

TTailedTiger wrote:
If the investigations conclude that Boeing didn't build a deathtrap and they are not the primary reason for the crashes, then I believe the FAA must punish these entities somehow.


That is nothing short of a laughably ridiculous statement. Where do we even start? Retaliatory actions by the FAA because... because Singapore grounded American-made aircraft that a carrier they partially own bought from Boeing and were well within their right to ground?

TTailedTiger wrote:
The airlines and nations that grounded the 737Max and made dubious claims should have their landing and overflight rights to the US suspended for no less than one year. Any slots held at airports will be revoked and sold to the next qualified highest bidder.


But wait! There's more! Again, these aircraft are products purchased by, in the case of Singapore Airlines, the Government of Singapore (partially), and they have every right to ground them for whatever reasons they see fit. Just because they're American-made products doesn't mean that the United States has any sort of jurisdiction over them. If they want to grind them all up into coke cans they can do that. They're products legally purchased and possessed.

TTailedTiger wrote:
These entities need to understand that are consequences for unfounded actions and not waiting for the results of an investigation.


Like others have said, what a ridiculous post. It's not dissimilar from saying that if a Mercedes S classes suddenly started randomly crashing across the United States and the U.S. recalled them all to play it safe Germany would retaliate. Ridiculous.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:49 am

If the US arbitrarily recalled the Mercedes S Class then yes I would fully understand if the Germans retaliated in some way.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:54 am

The authorities in the respective countries are just exercising their rights to ensure passenger safety. Sure some might say it's an overreaction, and I personally do believe that it is so, but to ask for the US government to retaliate against the governments that had ordered the grounding is in itself an overreaction.
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NIKV69
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:07 am

Olddog wrote:
The FAA will be already busy working on its own reputation....


It's been lost a long time ago.

TTailedTiger wrote:
So then explain why it is ok to go around claiming a product is unsafe and defective when you have no evidence to support the claim? All that does is spread an unfounded fear that the 737 isn't suitable for the public.


It's a knee jerk reaction. Families of victims need some satisfaction and the pilot has to be protected to the bitter end
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:08 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
The authorities in the respective countries are just exercising their rights to ensure passenger safety. Sure some might say it's an overreaction, and I personally do believe that it is so, but to ask for the US government to retaliate against the governments that had ordered the grounding is in itself an overreaction.


Yes one of the lead investigators in the Valujet crash believes grounding the 737 to be an overreaction. Keep in mind that he was highly critical of the FAA's lack of oversight with Valujet's operation so I don't think he would be shy in holding their feet to the fire with the 737max if there was any evidence to suggest that Boeing and the FAA screwed up.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:29 am

Sometimes you can decide one way or the other and both decisions are not wrong at the moment.

The FAA also required Boeing to come up with changes to the MCAS (including max. command limit) after the Lion Air Crash, but those have not been implemented yet and most action focused on the AoA vanes and how to replace and calibrate them.

Now the focus might have shifted and under this circumstances a grounding is as reasonable as not grounding the MAX, especially as government agencies do not have to be right in such cases, their actions just need to be logical and commensurate given the facts known at the time, with passenger safety being their first concern.

We will know more once they have the flight data, then we might see FAA and EASA follow with the grounding or the others lifting it. At the moment both decisions are equally reasonable.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:46 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
If the US arbitrarily recalled the Mercedes S Class then yes I would fully understand if the Germans retaliated in some way.


Not in some way, you are demanding that Germany punisches Ford and GM if a US government agency issued a false recall.

It is obvious nonsense.

TTailedTiger wrote:
Itheir landing and overflight rights to the US suspended for no less than one year. Any slots held at airports will be revoked and sold to the next qualified highest bidder.


oh, you mean steal their property?

Now Egypt has a bilateral investment protection agreement with the US .... so it is really good that you want to auction those slots off, hence that gives a starting point for the US tax payer to reimburse them.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Bostrom
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:46 am

It will probably be the best thing that happened to Airbus in a long time if airlines knew they'd be punished if they for some reason grounded their Boeings.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:26 am

Better safe than sorry will be punishable. Undermining of a sovereign government agency seems to be ok by the OP.

And with the 787, it was first Japanese agency that ordered the grounding, only after two weeks the Americans followed.

If anything, Boeing should have a case if this decision was made on grounds which don't hold or the airlines affected. Not America to punish individual airlines.

Definitely a stupid idea, on so many levels.
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Aesma
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:20 am

Reading this you would understand why someone wouldn't trust the FAA or Boeing to do the right thing : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
cpd
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:51 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I don't want to derail the main threads with talking about the political stunts some countries and airlines are pulling with grounding the 737Max. Singapore has even banned the type. The debris from the Ethiopian crash is probably still hot to the touch yet these countries think they already know what the problem is. Nevermind that several experts have already said that MCAS would not be active at the altitude and configuration of the Ethiopian flight.

If the investigations conclude that Boeing didn't build a deathtrap and they are not the primary reason for the crashes, then I believe the FAA must punish these entities somehow. The airlines and nations that grounded the 737Max and made dubious claims should have their landing and overflight rights to the US suspended for no less than one year. Any slots held at airports will be revoked and sold to the next qualified highest bidder. These entities need to understand that are consequences for unfounded actions and not waiting for the results of an investigation.


Are you just trolling or really serious?

Australia didn't rush to ground the plane, they've waited. When you are dealing with issues like this it is better to be on the side of caution rather than not. It might just save some lives and/or planes too. Even if it proves not to have been needed, it's a better outcome than if you had not been cautious and another couple of planes also crashed.

Of course all planes have four dimensions, the fourth one being politics, but it's pretty disappointing to read a post like that.

I'm totally neutral in the matter with regards to politics. Safety must come first.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:16 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I don't want to derail the main threads with talking about the political stunts some countries and airlines are pulling with grounding the 737Max. Singapore has even banned the type. The debris from the Ethiopian crash is probably still hot to the touch yet these countries think they already know what the problem is. Nevermind that several experts have already said that MCAS would not be active at the altitude and configuration of the Ethiopian flight.

If the investigations conclude that Boeing didn't build a deathtrap and they are not the primary reason for the crashes, then I believe the FAA must punish these entities somehow. The airlines and nations that grounded the 737Max and made dubious claims should have their landing and overflight rights to the US suspended for no less than one year. Any slots held at airports will be revoked and sold to the next qualified highest bidder. These entities need to understand that are consequences for unfounded actions and not waiting for the results of an investigation.


Ah, so you decided to come to non-av as well. Joy!

You seem far more concerned about the reputations of the 737MAX and Boeing than you do about over 300 dead bodies.

What will you scream about if Boeing can't get their MCAS fix ready and certified by the April deadline that the FAA has given them and then the FAA ends up grounding the MAX as well?

As to the FAA punishing other entities... Hilarious! :rotfl:


By the way, what will you say if it turns out these crashes are related and due to a software bug/logic error/faulty design on Boeing's part? Even worse, what will you say if another 150 die on a 737MAX shortly after take-off in a couple of months?
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:48 am

Aesma wrote:
Reading this you would understand why someone wouldn't trust the FAA or Boeing to do the right thing : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues


I've read about that case - the issue was only discovered after the painstaking investigation of USAir 427, and while the FAA didn't ground the airplane Boeing did engineer a fix.

Which is why I believe this whole issue with the 737MAX is an overreaction...
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scbriml
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:58 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Which is why I believe this whole issue with the 737MAX is an overreaction...


Serious question - how many more people would have to die before you wouldn't consider it an overreaction?
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ltbewr
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:29 am

Politicians have their own reasons for wanting or not to ground the 737 MAX series aircraft. Some are sincere, but some do so as a simplistic, knee-jerk reaction, to make it look like they care. Some non-US carriers are afraid of being stuck with the bill of losses of lives, of destroying carriers they in part own. Then you have some politicians using this to bash the USA for their own reasons.
Here in the USA you don't hear a peep from politicians to ground them to protect Boeing from being financially hurt as well as not suspending employees that make them and until a better understanding is determined of what happened in recent losses by our NTSB.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:58 am

scbriml wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Which is why I believe this whole issue with the 737MAX is an overreaction...


Serious question - how many more people would have to die before you wouldn't consider it an overreaction?


Let me ask you a question in response - what if the ET crash is NOT an issue with the 737MAX?

Yes lives are precious but at the same time action should be driven by facts and reason, not by emotion. What's driving the furor against the 737MAX right now is emotion, emotion prompted by the bombardment by the media of the disasters given that in the 2010s air crashes aren't as common as they were as late as the 1990s. When you're bombarded by constant reminders of how deadly aviation can be, reason & rationality gets thrown out the window.
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VSMUT
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:07 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
scbriml wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Which is why I believe this whole issue with the 737MAX is an overreaction...


Serious question - how many more people would have to die before you wouldn't consider it an overreaction?


Let me ask you a question in response - what if the ET crash is NOT an issue with the 737MAX?


Then the aircraft will return to the skies in a few weeks, airlines and Boeing will down a bit by the finances but everything will be back to normal again with no loss of life.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:11 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
scbriml wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Which is why I believe this whole issue with the 737MAX is an overreaction...


Serious question - how many more people would have to die before you wouldn't consider it an overreaction?


Let me ask you a question in response - what if the ET crash is NOT an issue with the 737MAX?


Seigh of relieve and done.....

Aviation is so safe because it is safety first.

Best regards
Thomas
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:47 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Aviation is so safe because it is safety first.


Thing is, it's not proven that the plane is not safe

VSMUT wrote:
Then the aircraft will return to the skies in a few weeks, airlines and Boeing will down a bit by the finances but everything will be back to normal again with no loss of life.


So why can't it wait another two or three days until the DFDR & CVR is decoded & investigators get a clue of what happened?
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VSMUT
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:55 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
So why can't it wait another two or three days until the DFDR & CVR is decoded & investigators get a clue of what happened?


Because if there really is a fault, another plane could crash within 2 or 3 days, killing another 150+ passengers.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:56 pm

VSMUT wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
So why can't it wait another two or three days until the DFDR & CVR is decoded & investigators get a clue of what happened?


Because if there really is a fault, another plane could crash within 2 or 3 days, killing another 150+ passengers.


If that's the case then it would have happened right after JT610, wouldn't you agree?
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VSMUT
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:05 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
So why can't it wait another two or three days until the DFDR & CVR is decoded & investigators get a clue of what happened?


Because if there really is a fault, another plane could crash within 2 or 3 days, killing another 150+ passengers.


If that's the case then it would have happened right after JT610, wouldn't you agree?


I'm not following you any more, what would have happened? Another accident? This could potentially be that accident. Design flaws don't follow a fixed schedule, they don't have to cause accidents every 3 days or 5 months. They can quite literally happen at random intervals, depending on the underlying issue.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:21 pm

VSMUT wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

Because if there really is a fault, another plane could crash within 2 or 3 days, killing another 150+ passengers.


If that's the case then it would have happened right after JT610, wouldn't you agree?


I'm not following you any more, what would have happened? Another accident? This could potentially be that accident. Design flaws don't follow a fixed schedule, they don't have to cause accidents every 3 days or 5 months. They can quite literally happen at random intervals, depending on the underlying issue.


Which is why I argued that this is an overreaction. We DON'T know that this is a repeat of JT610. So why the need to bash the FAA & Boeing for not declaring a grounding? Why not let the investigators on ET302 decode the DFDR first before making a decision?
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seahawk
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:28 pm

Authorities are expected to act if they see reasonable evidence that there could be a technical problem, they do not need to wait for proof that there actually is a problem.
 
Scorpius
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:29 pm

You forgot one thing: suspicions about the reliability of the 737 MAX appeared AFTER TWO ACCIDENTS, WHICH KILLED 346 PEOPLE.
The decision to suspend the operation of this type of aircraft is a reasonable precaution.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:29 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

If that's the case then it would have happened right after JT610, wouldn't you agree?


I'm not following you any more, what would have happened? Another accident? This could potentially be that accident. Design flaws don't follow a fixed schedule, they don't have to cause accidents every 3 days or 5 months. They can quite literally happen at random intervals, depending on the underlying issue.


Which is why I argued that this is an overreaction. We DON'T know that this is a repeat of JT610. So why the need to bash the FAA & Boeing for not declaring a grounding? Why not let the investigators on ET302 decode the DFDR first before making a decision?


Potentially preventing a loss of life is an overreaction?!?!?!?!?!

What exactly has you so riled up over a grounding? If no correlation is found, the 737MAX will be back in the air, as you said, in 2 or 3 days. Or worst case, they find something, it is fixed and the 737MAX returns safely to the sky in no more than a few months. The ATR suffered a grounding after 1 crash, and after the grounding was lifted it went on to become the best selling aircraft in its segment.
On the other hand, if it isn't grounded and another crash happens, on top of the loss of 150+ additional people, then Boeing is as good as dead. And judging from your profile picture, you definitely don't want that to happen.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:55 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
The debris from the Ethiopian crash is probably still hot to the touch yet these countries think they already know what the problem is.


Why are you are flailing about on all ET302 related threads outraged about the groundings? Is your pride somehow so hurt by the possibility that Boeing might be in the wrong here that you simply refuse to acknowledge the very possibility?

You also seem to misunderstand the precautionary principle... Here's a bit of reading for you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle

Excerpt:
"The precautionary principle (or precautionary approach) generally defines actions on issues considered to be uncertain, for instance applied in assessing risk management.[1] The principle is used by policy makers to justify discretionary decisions in situations where there is the possibility of harm from making a certain decision (e.g. taking a particular course of action) when extensive scientific knowledge on the matter is lacking. The principle implies that there is a social responsibility to protect the public from exposure to harm, when scientific investigation has found a plausible risk. These protections can be relaxed only if further scientific findings emerge that provide sound evidence that no harm will result."

In short: Authorities are not grounding the airplane because they are blaming your precious Boeing Co. but because they want to protect the public from potential and unknown issues which might cause harm. In plain English: they are being cautious.

Why is this so hard to understand? Is your love for a corporation so strong that it blinds your common sense?
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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WingsFan
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:00 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
If the US arbitrarily recalled the Mercedes S Class then yes I would fully understand if the Germans retaliated in some way.


Grounding of 737MAX isn't exactly out of the blue is it? There are still 300 dead people and 2 crashes in a small time frame. Investigations are just getting started and you want to blame governments for being proactive to protect their citizens?
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:12 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
So why can't it wait another two or three days until the DFDR & CVR is decoded & investigators get a clue of what happened?

Because if there really is a fault, another plane could crash within 2 or 3 days, killing another 150+ passengers.

If that's the case then it would have happened right after JT610, wouldn't you agree?

What strange logic? When did 1=2?
JT610 was the first incident without immediate explanation.
In some cases that has been enough to ground a type, but you could be justified in claiming that as extreme.

ET302 is... wait for it... the second unexplained incident.

Not. The.. Same.
So no, very few here would agree with you.

"We don't know the cause" and "we don't know if they are related" is exactly why we should exercise caution.

There are some people in Seattle getting their knickers in a twist, and half of them are here on a.net polluting these boards with company propaganda.
The pure desperation to avoid any hint of blame towards Boeing, exhibited across multiple threads is in itself cause to be worrying.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:13 pm

I flew on that exact airframe from Nairobi to Addis in January.

The 737 max should be grounded until they rule out the problem.

What is it with Boeing making faulty aircraft the 787 and 737max are their latest editions and both have had in service issues.

The FAA has had reputational issues since the DC-10.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:21 pm

I think you made a mistake by starting this non-av thread.

MAX is emblematic of BCA/FAA behavior which started with 787, reached a peak. They are probably emboldened with the success of rubbing 787 issues on customers with the help of PR or selectively managing aftersales service to prove some operators were bad.

Too bad same tactics are not working anymore.

Watch this video, you will see how quickly FAA Administrator changed his tune on a dime.
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2014/02/10/w ... y-faa.html

BCA's China plans rubbed the unions and Seattle Times the wrong way, we now know what actually happened with 787, which proves Huerta was lying in the previous video.
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ne-boeing/
 
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mad99
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:49 pm

WingsFan wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If the US arbitrarily recalled the Mercedes S Class then yes I would fully understand if the Germans retaliated in some way.


Grounding of 737MAX isn't exactly out of the blue is it? There are still 300 dead people and 2 crashes in a small time frame. Investigations are just getting started and you want to blame governments for being proactive to protect their citizens?



The reason its grounded is its new and had two very similar crashes. Had they been not similar crashes it would be a different story
 
tommy1808
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:53 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Aviation is so safe because it is safety first.


Thing is, it's not proven that the plane is not safe


You don't understand "safety first" if you think that it involves "proven unsafe" at any step.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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scbriml
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:38 pm

Well, Trump has now spoken. Planes are too complex to fly.

Case closed. Looks like we're driving everywhere.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:40 pm

scbriml wrote:
Well, Trump has now spoken. Planes are too complex to fly.

Case closed. Looks like we're driving everywhere.


Someone should talk to him about that Space Force Idea of his.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:47 pm

cpd wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I don't want to derail the main threads with talking about the political stunts some countries and airlines are pulling with grounding the 737Max. Singapore has even banned the type. The debris from the Ethiopian crash is probably still hot to the touch yet these countries think they already know what the problem is. Nevermind that several experts have already said that MCAS would not be active at the altitude and configuration of the Ethiopian flight.

If the investigations conclude that Boeing didn't build a deathtrap and they are not the primary reason for the crashes, then I believe the FAA must punish these entities somehow. The airlines and nations that grounded the 737Max and made dubious claims should have their landing and overflight rights to the US suspended for no less than one year. Any slots held at airports will be revoked and sold to the next qualified highest bidder. These entities need to understand that are consequences for unfounded actions and not waiting for the results of an investigation.


Are you just trolling or really serious?

Australia didn't rush to ground the plane, they've waited. When you are dealing with issues like this it is better to be on the side of caution rather than not. It might just save some lives and/or planes too. Even if it proves not to have been needed, it's a better outcome than if you had not been cautious and another couple of planes also crashed.

Of course all planes have four dimensions, the fourth one being politics, but it's pretty disappointing to read a post like that.

I'm totally neutral in the matter with regards to politics. Safety must come first.


Do you think these nations need to apologize for their actions and reassure the public if turns out Boeing wasn't at fault?
 
TTailedTiger
Topic Author
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:49 pm

scbriml wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Which is why I believe this whole issue with the 737MAX is an overreaction...


Serious question - how many more people would have to die before you wouldn't consider it an overreaction?


How many more people need to die on Lion Air before you support grounding their operation? They've killed plenty of people on non-737max aircraft.
 
cpd
Posts: 5991
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:56 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
cpd wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I don't want to derail the main threads with talking about the political stunts some countries and airlines are pulling with grounding the 737Max. Singapore has even banned the type. The debris from the Ethiopian crash is probably still hot to the touch yet these countries think they already know what the problem is. Nevermind that several experts have already said that MCAS would not be active at the altitude and configuration of the Ethiopian flight.

If the investigations conclude that Boeing didn't build a deathtrap and they are not the primary reason for the crashes, then I believe the FAA must punish these entities somehow. The airlines and nations that grounded the 737Max and made dubious claims should have their landing and overflight rights to the US suspended for no less than one year. Any slots held at airports will be revoked and sold to the next qualified highest bidder. These entities need to understand that are consequences for unfounded actions and not waiting for the results of an investigation.


Are you just trolling or really serious?

Australia didn't rush to ground the plane, they've waited. When you are dealing with issues like this it is better to be on the side of caution rather than not. It might just save some lives and/or planes too. Even if it proves not to have been needed, it's a better outcome than if you had not been cautious and another couple of planes also crashed.

Of course all planes have four dimensions, the fourth one being politics, but it's pretty disappointing to read a post like that.

I'm totally neutral in the matter with regards to politics. Safety must come first.


Do you think these nations need to apologize for their actions and reassure the public if turns out Boeing wasn't at fault?


You need to go away and have a think about what you’ve written.
 
TTailedTiger
Topic Author
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:07 pm

cpd wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
cpd wrote:

Are you just trolling or really serious?

Australia didn't rush to ground the plane, they've waited. When you are dealing with issues like this it is better to be on the side of caution rather than not. It might just save some lives and/or planes too. Even if it proves not to have been needed, it's a better outcome than if you had not been cautious and another couple of planes also crashed.

Of course all planes have four dimensions, the fourth one being politics, but it's pretty disappointing to read a post like that.

I'm totally neutral in the matter with regards to politics. Safety must come first.


Do you think these nations need to apologize for their actions and reassure the public if turns out Boeing wasn't at fault?


You need to go away and have a think about what you’ve written.


What exactly are you wanting Boeing to fix when no one even knows the reason for either crash?
 
winginit
Posts: 2549
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:19 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
cpd wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I don't want to derail the main threads with talking about the political stunts some countries and airlines are pulling with grounding the 737Max. Singapore has even banned the type. The debris from the Ethiopian crash is probably still hot to the touch yet these countries think they already know what the problem is. Nevermind that several experts have already said that MCAS would not be active at the altitude and configuration of the Ethiopian flight.

If the investigations conclude that Boeing didn't build a deathtrap and they are not the primary reason for the crashes, then I believe the FAA must punish these entities somehow. The airlines and nations that grounded the 737Max and made dubious claims should have their landing and overflight rights to the US suspended for no less than one year. Any slots held at airports will be revoked and sold to the next qualified highest bidder. These entities need to understand that are consequences for unfounded actions and not waiting for the results of an investigation.


Are you just trolling or really serious?

Australia didn't rush to ground the plane, they've waited. When you are dealing with issues like this it is better to be on the side of caution rather than not. It might just save some lives and/or planes too. Even if it proves not to have been needed, it's a better outcome than if you had not been cautious and another couple of planes also crashed.

Of course all planes have four dimensions, the fourth one being politics, but it's pretty disappointing to read a post like that.

I'm totally neutral in the matter with regards to politics. Safety must come first.


Do you think these nations need to apologize for their actions and reassure the public if turns out Boeing wasn't at fault?


Aeromexico and GOL and grounding as well. Should the FAA go after Mexico and Brazil as well if it turns out Boring isn’t at fault?
 
TTailedTiger
Topic Author
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:30 pm

winginit wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
cpd wrote:

Are you just trolling or really serious?

Australia didn't rush to ground the plane, they've waited. When you are dealing with issues like this it is better to be on the side of caution rather than not. It might just save some lives and/or planes too. Even if it proves not to have been needed, it's a better outcome than if you had not been cautious and another couple of planes also crashed.

Of course all planes have four dimensions, the fourth one being politics, but it's pretty disappointing to read a post like that.

I'm totally neutral in the matter with regards to politics. Safety must come first.


Do you think these nations need to apologize for their actions and reassure the public if turns out Boeing wasn't at fault?


Aeromexico and GOL and grounding as well. Should the FAA go after Mexico and Brazil as well if it turns out Boring isn’t at fault?



In the US we make decisions based on real evidence. If a murder is reported and the suspect is reported to have blue eyes and brown hair, we don't go locking up everyone who fits that description and claim we are doing it out of an abundance of caution since we're not sure which one of them did it.

There is no evidence to support that Boeing built a deadly airplane that can crash itself at any moment. If there was then I would support grounding them. If these airlines had stated "we are grounding the fleet to make sure our own training and maintenance procedures are sufficient" then that would be different. But instead they just claimed the plane isnt safe with nonreason given.
 
TTailedTiger
Topic Author
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:34 pm

Aesma wrote:
Reading this you would understand why someone wouldn't trust the FAA or Boeing to do the right thing : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues


Boeing didn't build the defective power control units for the rudder. That was a Parker-Hannifan product. Why should Boeing be blamed for that? If you decide to serve a Caesar salad at a dinner party and people get sick because the romaine lettuce had E. coli, is that your fault?
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 1407
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:49 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Reading this you would understand why someone wouldn't trust the FAA or Boeing to do the right thing : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues


Boeing didn't build the defective power control units for the rudder. That was a Parker-Hannifan product. Why should Boeing be blamed for that? If you decide to serve a Caesar salad at a dinner party and people get sick because the romaine lettuce had E. coli, is that your fault?


Actually, yes. The restaurant would be liable.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 1729
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:00 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
If the investigations conclude that Boeing didn't build a deathtrap and they are not the primary reason for the crashes, then I believe the FAA must punish these entities somehow. The airlines and nations that grounded the 737Max and made dubious claims should have their landing and overflight rights to the US suspended for no less than one year. Any slots held at airports will be revoked and sold to the next qualified highest bidder. These entities need to understand that are consequences for unfounded actions and not waiting for the results of an investigation.

cpd wrote:
Are you just trolling or really serious?
More likely just following instructions from above.... ;)
TTailedTiger (from another thread) wrote:
It annoys me how much the media in Seattle hates Boeing
So, how are the treacherous guys on the Seattle Times spinning this story? :rotfl:

TTailedTiger wrote:
Do you think these nations need to apologize for their actions and reassure the public if turns out Boeing wasn't at fault?

It is surely only a matter of time before the FAA finally acknowledge the inevitable, so....

Do you think the FAA will apologize for their actions if turns out Boeing wasn't at fault? :scratchchin:

Good luck with that idea!

It stands just as much chance as Boeing ever apologizing for the mass murders they are accessory to.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 17378
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:08 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
If these airlines had stated "we are grounding the fleet to make sure our own training and maintenance procedures are sufficient" then that would be different. But instead they just claimed the plane isnt safe with nonreason given.


Please provide sources to support your claim that airlines said the plane isn't safe with no reason given. Thanks!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
winginit
Posts: 2549
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Politics and the 737Max

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:43 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
winginit wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Do you think these nations need to apologize for their actions and reassure the public if turns out Boeing wasn't at fault?


Aeromexico and GOL and grounding as well. Should the FAA go after Mexico and Brazil as well if it turns out Boring isn’t at fault?



In the US we make decisions based on real evidence. If a murder is reported and the suspect is reported to have blue eyes and brown hair, we don't go locking up everyone who fits that description and claim we are doing it out of an abundance of caution since we're not sure which one of them did it.

There is no evidence to support that Boeing built a deadly airplane that can crash itself at any moment. If there was then I would support grounding them. If these airlines had stated "we are grounding the fleet to make sure our own training and maintenance procedures are sufficient" then that would be different. But instead they just claimed the plane isnt safe with nonreason given.


aaaand now the EU has grounded them, leaving only the US and Canada who are still flying the frame. Should we go after everyone but Canada if it turns out Boeing is not at fault?

You’ve chosen an interesting hill to die on here. Surely you knew this is exactly what would happen?

Finally, please show us where any carrier or country said the frame isn’t safe? No one has said that. No one.

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