tommy1808
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:44 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
cpd wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

It wasn't what was right he just caved in to the rest of the world that hates Boeing and who will do anything to protect the pilots.


Rest of the world that hates Boeing? Really - are you an adult or a two year old kid. The rest of the world obvously hates Boeing because they buy large numbers of 737 (including this type), the 787 and the 777 in various forms.

The first thing they'd do if they hated Boeing would be to stop buying those planes.


Aren't some of them doing that? Regardless, grounding a plane and placing blame before the voice and data recorders are even opened is very concerning. They have already skewed the investigation. They are acting on emotion, not evidence.


They are acting on "safety first", they just got to the right conclusion a couple of hours earlier than the FAA, and Boeing themselves.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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cpd
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:04 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
cpd wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

It wasn't what was right he just caved in to the rest of the world that hates Boeing and who will do anything to protect the pilots.


Rest of the world that hates Boeing? Really - are you an adult or a two year old kid. The rest of the world obvously hates Boeing because they buy large numbers of 737 (including this type), the 787 and the 777 in various forms.

The first thing they'd do if they hated Boeing would be to stop buying those planes.


Aren't some of them doing that? Regardless, grounding a plane and placing blame before the voice and data recorders are even opened is very concerning. They have already skewed the investigation. They are acting on emotion, not evidence.


Immediate grounding of planes has happened before and it was the right decision.

Safety must always be first. If this isn't the right thing, then you can always take legal action against Donald Trump.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:24 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Actually he didn't have much to do with it as he isn't an expert and the FAA didn't want to ground the aircraft but political thuggery forced his hand.


Don't tell Trump, he will be offended.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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aeromoe
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:19 pm

Olddog wrote:
I think that was made the US cave in was the fact that Ethiopian did dare to slap them in the face with the black boxes sent to Germany instead of the ntsb as expected, showing that there was zero trust left with the FAA or Boeing.....


I don't know the Ethiopian rationale to send them to Germany. Could be they truly wanted an unbiased, very technically-capable, third party involved with that aspect of the investigation.
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ltbewr
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:36 am

Once Canada banned 737MAX operations in their country, it limited continued use of them in the USA. President Trump had no other choice. Its a shame we were the last and Trump come off like a phony hero to the public. At this point, a virtual worldwide groundings of the 737MAX was demanded by the public and who know, it may save some lives and reduce the risks to Boeing in the long run.

The infamous 35 day partial USA government shutdown in part led by Trump's demands and Democrats refusal for monies for more hard walls between the USA and Mexico may have delayed the implication of Boeing's fix into April, too late to possibly save the ET flight. Let us not forget that any fix has to be extensively tested and approved by the slow moving FAA bureaucracy for usually good reasons and not make things possibly worse.
 
BN747
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:29 am

The Liar-in-Chief trashes 737s en masse after announcing his grounding...

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/03/737s-s ... force-one/

This fool has no cerebral cuicuit breaker to kick in when you are way out of your league on a subject! Travolta owns more jets than this fool but at least he can ‘talk’ expertly about flight & aircraft...the orange guy, kids (literal children) on this website can wipe the floor with him on the subject.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:45 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
cpd wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

It wasn't what was right he just caved in to the rest of the world that hates Boeing and who will do anything to protect the pilots.


Rest of the world that hates Boeing? Really - are you an adult or a two year old kid. The rest of the world obvously hates Boeing because they buy large numbers of 737 (including this type), the 787 and the 777 in various forms.

The first thing they'd do if they hated Boeing would be to stop buying those planes.


Aren't some of them doing that? Regardless, grounding a plane and placing blame before the voice and data recorders are even opened is very concerning. They have already skewed the investigation. They are acting on emotion, not evidence.


Let's take you seriously:

> whom are doing this? Names or countries please with evidence.
> why is it concerning to take a precaution?
> why did they - whom are they? - skewed the investigation? Or better why do you doubt the impartial why these are conducted (the NTSB will most probably be involved since Boeing is American).
> which emotion are they acting on?

To be blunt: evidence: 2 wreckage sites.
Two new aircraft went down under similar circumstances. The problem is that we don't know why yet, but we do know that Boeing is ordered to make changes to the system, so makes sense to have them implement these changes before they release the a/c again.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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cougar15
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:18 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Why? Has any American Max aircraft had an issue?


If you mean US operator by "american Max Aircraft", there are a couple of pilot reports about uncommanded pitch down after take off.

Three things stuck in my head form IATA DGR training many, many moons back:

1. Can´t bring magnets on a Saab 2000
2. Mercury filled thermometers can only be brought on board by employees of national weather services.
3. Any reason for an incident will lead to an accident if not addressed.

The grounding is based on one crash, one maybe crash, and incident reports. This is no.3

If it wasn´t an aircraft certified by the setting-the-standard-for-good-aviation-safety FAA, it very probably would have been grounded before.

You think an MS-21 or a C919 would make it to the 2nd crash before a grounding?

Best regards
Thomas


China wouldn't ground the C919 even if it came apart bolt by bolt in the air.



Wow, I thought your comments in the Atlas thread were bad, till I came across this load of comedy! Congratulations, you are the first user I have ever added to my FOE list on this platform, Garbage is something I take to the bin, not read!
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:24 am

aeromoe wrote:
Olddog wrote:
I think that was made the US cave in was the fact that Ethiopian did dare to slap them in the face with the black boxes sent to Germany instead of the ntsb as expected, showing that there was zero trust left with the FAA or Boeing.....


I don't know the Ethiopian rationale to send them to Germany. Could be they truly wanted an unbiased, very technically-capable, third party involved with that aspect of the investigation.


The boxes ended up in France... with its own agenda in the whole affair and just as nationalist and protectionist goverment. How much credibility they have?
 
NIKV69
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:51 pm

Thank you Greg Feith.

From his facebook.

What is going on with Aviation Safety? The Ethiopian government “shopped around” to find a country where the FDR and CVR would be sent because they decided that despite being the country of manufacturer, and having one of the best FDR/CVR Labs, the NTSB would not read out the data. At a time when an airplane is under so much scrutiny regarding safety of flight issues, the Ethiopian government apparently did not feel a sense of urgency in obtaining data that is vital to both Boeing and the FAA to determine the safety-critical issue(s) with either the airplane, the pilots, aircraft maintenance or a combination of all three.

Instead of having critical information within hours, the aviation industry and the world are waiting days because the Ethiopian government was turned down by the UK and German investigative authorities and finally settled on the French BEA. Politics like this has no place in aviation safety.

Now that the BEA (who also has a very good laboratory but are in the backyard of Airbus) has received the FDR and CVR, the next question is when will the data be available for analysis? Meanwhile the aviation industry and flying public waits, and the air carriers experience the economic impact!


Couldn't have said it better.
"Some people did something" Rep Omar on 9/11
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:13 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Thank you Greg Feith.

From his facebook.

What is going on with Aviation Safety? The Ethiopian government “shopped around” to find a country where the FDR and CVR would be sent because they decided that despite being the country of manufacturer, and having one of the best FDR/CVR Labs, the NTSB would not read out the data. At a time when an airplane is under so much scrutiny regarding safety of flight issues, the Ethiopian government apparently did not feel a sense of urgency in obtaining data that is vital to both Boeing and the FAA to determine the safety-critical issue(s) with either the airplane, the pilots, aircraft maintenance or a combination of all three.

Instead of having critical information within hours, the aviation industry and the world are waiting days because the Ethiopian government was turned down by the UK and German investigative authorities and finally settled on the French BEA. Politics like this has no place in aviation safety.

Now that the BEA (who also has a very good laboratory but are in the backyard of Airbus) has received the FDR and CVR, the next question is when will the data be available for analysis? Meanwhile the aviation industry and flying public waits, and the air carriers experience the economic impact!


Couldn't have said it better.


So he basically says, because BEA is French they can't be trusted, but politics has no place in aviation safety :lol:

I can see that you couldn't have said it better.......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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scbriml
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:12 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Thank you Greg Feith.

From his facebook.

What is going on with Aviation Safety? The Ethiopian government “shopped around” to find a country where the FDR and CVR would be sent because they decided that despite being the country of manufacturer, and having one of the best FDR/CVR Labs, the NTSB would not read out the data. At a time when an airplane is under so much scrutiny regarding safety of flight issues, the Ethiopian government apparently did not feel a sense of urgency in obtaining data that is vital to both Boeing and the FAA to determine the safety-critical issue(s) with either the airplane, the pilots, aircraft maintenance or a combination of all three.

Instead of having critical information within hours, the aviation industry and the world are waiting days because the Ethiopian government was turned down by the UK and German investigative authorities and finally settled on the French BEA. Politics like this has no place in aviation safety.

Now that the BEA (who also has a very good laboratory but are in the backyard of Airbus) has received the FDR and CVR, the next question is when will the data be available for analysis? Meanwhile the aviation industry and flying public waits, and the air carriers experience the economic impact!


Couldn't have said it better.


It sounds like you and your homie Greg both have a huge chip on your shoulder. The NTSB isn't the be all and end all of accident investigation.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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Dieuwer
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:21 pm

A Special Investigator should be installed with the power to subpoena ALL communication records between Boeing, the FAA, and the White House to see whether there is any indication of graft, corruption and criminal negligence related to the safety of the B737-MAX.
 
Olddog
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:29 pm

It remembers me a documentary I saw about the ATR crash in the US (maybe on National Geographic). At the end of the documentary the "expert" said the main problem of the ATR is that it was not made in the US..... Like if not US made plane has ever crashed.

The FAA needs to learn than its behavior theses past years means now people want to double check certifications.
 
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cpd
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:49 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
aeromoe wrote:
Olddog wrote:
I think that was made the US cave in was the fact that Ethiopian did dare to slap them in the face with the black boxes sent to Germany instead of the ntsb as expected, showing that there was zero trust left with the FAA or Boeing.....


I don't know the Ethiopian rationale to send them to Germany. Could be they truly wanted an unbiased, very technically-capable, third party involved with that aspect of the investigation.


The boxes ended up in France... with its own agenda in the whole affair and just as nationalist and protectionist goverment. How much credibility they have?


And those boxes would have been checked with any more credibility in the USA, with its own agenda and also a strongly nationalist and protectionist leadership?

Come on, don’t be a fool. It is going to be investigated properly. The gaze of the world is on them here, if anything even slightly untoward looks like happening they will be skewered.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:34 pm

Hasn't the NTSB been on the ground in Ethiopia and is following the situation there ? Perhaps they are cooperating with BEA in France ? several sets of eyes is better than one set ?
 
NIKV69
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:34 am

scbriml wrote:

It sounds like you and your homie Greg both have a huge chip on your shoulder. The NTSB isn't the be all and end all of accident investigation.


Why does he have a chip on his shoulder? He happens to have the most extensive resume and experience in this matter. Much more than the talking heads and arm chair investigators and politicians who are trying to score cheap points by attacking Boeing.

No chip, just truth and experience. Again if you don't want to hear the pilots are to blame that is fine. It would be nice to have someone who is well versed examining the black boxes since the aircraft is grounded and you want Boeing to make it right since you feel they are to blame.
"Some people did something" Rep Omar on 9/11
 
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Aesma
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:01 am

Aviation crashes are bad for the industry in general. Airbus has nothing to gain by trying to screw with the investigation, and a lot to lose obviously if they did and that became known.

Now if Boeing provides a software modification to MCAS, but the blame is mostly put on the pilots, they can save face. With that said, I don't believe the FAA would do something like messing with the recorders, but I can also see how someone in Ethiopia could think about that and ask someone else to help in the investigation.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Scorpius
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:22 am

I would like to note one more thing. In January I flew 737-800 (if I'm not mistaken, this generation NG). The plane of the airline "Pobeda", they are all new, the oldest less than 5 years. And here is a photo of the state of the seam rivets I made on my smartphone.
Image
Do you think it is normal to produce aircraft with this quality of connection using rivets, or does the Boeing Corporation need to seriously work on controlling the quality of production?
This is just one small example.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:49 am

Scorpius wrote:
I would like to note one more thing. In January I flew 737-800 (if I'm not mistaken, this generation NG). The plane of the airline "Pobeda", they are all new, the oldest less than 5 years. And here is a photo of the state of the seam rivets I made on my smartphone.


Do you think it is normal to produce aircraft with this quality of connection using rivets, or does the Boeing Corporation need to seriously work on controlling the quality of production?
This is just one small example.


Quality of maintenence an issue in Russia?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:53 am

Scorpius wrote:
I would like to note one more thing. In January I flew 737-800 (if I'm not mistaken, this generation NG). The plane of the airline "Pobeda", they are all new, the oldest less than 5 years. And here is a photo of the state of the seam rivets I made on my smartphone.
Image
Do you think it is normal to produce aircraft with this quality of connection using rivets, or does the Boeing Corporation need to seriously work on controlling the quality of production?
This is just one small example.


Oh no, it's a miracle the plane didn't rip apart! The 737 is only the most popular jet airliner produced. Do you think they are just held together with super glue and prayer? Furthermore, why did you get on it if you felt your safety might be in jeopardy?

I hope you never get a look at a Stearman or Piper Cub...
 
Scorpius
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:02 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
I would like to note one more thing. In January I flew 737-800 (if I'm not mistaken, this generation NG). The plane of the airline "Pobeda", they are all new, the oldest less than 5 years. And here is a photo of the state of the seam rivets I made on my smartphone.
Image
Do you think it is normal to produce aircraft with this quality of connection using rivets, or does the Boeing Corporation need to seriously work on controlling the quality of production?
This is just one small example.


Oh no, it's a miracle the plane didn't rip apart! The 737 is only the most popular jet airliner produced. Do you think they are just held together with super glue and prayer? Furthermore, why did you get on it if you felt your safety might be in jeopardy?

I hope you never get a look at a Stearman or Piper Cub...

I'm sorry, are you trying to say that this is an acceptable level of quality? Then I'm not surprised that Boeing planes fall so often. However, if you want to give up the Airbus market or someone else, then continue to do so.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:17 am

Scorpius wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
I would like to note one more thing. In January I flew 737-800 (if I'm not mistaken, this generation NG). The plane of the airline "Pobeda", they are all new, the oldest less than 5 years. And here is a photo of the state of the seam rivets I made on my smartphone.
Image
Do you think it is normal to produce aircraft with this quality of connection using rivets, or does the Boeing Corporation need to seriously work on controlling the quality of production?
This is just one small example.


Oh no, it's a miracle the plane didn't rip apart! The 737 is only the most popular jet airliner produced. Do you think they are just held together with super glue and prayer? Furthermore, why did you get on it if you felt your safety might be in jeopardy?

I hope you never get a look at a Stearman or Piper Cub...

I'm sorry, are you trying to say that this is an acceptable level of quality? Then I'm not surprised that Boeing planes fall so often. However, if you want to give up the Airbus market or someone else, then continue to do so.


Fall so often? What does that even mean? The 737NG/Max has an accident rate of .13 fatal incidents per million miles flown while the A320 has an accident of .11 fatal incidents per millions miles flown. So what exactly is your definition of "often"? Your claims are not based any facts.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:40 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Oh no, it's a miracle the plane didn't rip apart! The 737 is only the most popular jet airliner produced. Do you think they are just held together with super glue and prayer? Furthermore, why did you get on it if you felt your safety might be in jeopardy?

I hope you never get a look at a Stearman or Piper Cub...

I'm sorry, are you trying to say that this is an acceptable level of quality? Then I'm not surprised that Boeing planes fall so often. However, if you want to give up the Airbus market or someone else, then continue to do so.


Fall so often? What does that even mean? The 737NG/Max has an accident rate of .13 fatal incidents per million miles flown while the A320 has an accident of .11 fatal incidents per millions miles flown. So what exactly is your definition of "often"? Your claims are not based any facts.


Neat Trick to lump the Max in with the NG, despite being very different. How is 737max vs. 320neo?

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:44 am

tommy1808 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
I'm sorry, are you trying to say that this is an acceptable level of quality? Then I'm not surprised that Boeing planes fall so often. However, if you want to give up the Airbus market or someone else, then continue to do so.


Fall so often? What does that even mean? The 737NG/Max has an accident rate of .13 fatal incidents per million miles flown while the A320 has an accident of .11 fatal incidents per millions miles flown. So what exactly is your definition of "often"? Your claims are not based any facts.


Neat Trick to lump the Max in with the NG, despite being very different. How is 737max vs. 320neo?

Best regards
Thomas


What's the matter with you? He was referencing a 737-800 which is a 737NG. By including the two 737Max accidents it actually made the safety record worse, not better. Stop arguing just for the sake of arguing.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:52 am

I have no problem with the French BEA doing the investigation of the 'black boxes'. They are competent and while not as open or as fast in their disclosures of info to the of their investigations vs. the USA NTSB, they are more likely to get it right when do their report.

As to the political motivation, I wonder if the Ethiopian government didn't want to send them to the USA's NTSB due to the racial and anti-Islamic prejudice of President Trump as to 'Africans' and wanting to protect Boeing.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:02 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Fall so often? What does that even mean? The 737NG/Max has an accident rate of .13 fatal incidents per million miles flown while the A320 has an accident of .11 fatal incidents per millions miles flown. So what exactly is your definition of "often"? Your claims are not based any facts.


Neat Trick to lump the Max in with the NG, despite being very different. How is 737max vs. 320neo?

Best regards
Thomas


What's the matter with you? .


This is still a thread about the Max grounding.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Scorpius
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:11 am

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
I would like to note one more thing. In January I flew 737-800 (if I'm not mistaken, this generation NG). The plane of the airline "Pobeda", they are all new, the oldest less than 5 years. And here is a photo of the state of the seam rivets I made on my smartphone.


Do you think it is normal to produce aircraft with this quality of connection using rivets, or does the Boeing Corporation need to seriously work on controlling the quality of production?
This is just one small example.


Quality of maintenence an issue in Russia?

This is a maintenance-free part. This is part of the skin, and it is obvious that it was such even before the painting of the aircraft
 
Scorpius
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:18 am

tommy1808 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
I'm sorry, are you trying to say that this is an acceptable level of quality? Then I'm not surprised that Boeing planes fall so often. However, if you want to give up the Airbus market or someone else, then continue to do so.


Fall so often? What does that even mean? The 737NG/Max has an accident rate of .13 fatal incidents per million miles flown while the A320 has an accident of .11 fatal incidents per millions miles flown. So what exactly is your definition of "often"? Your claims are not based any facts.


Neat Trick to lump the Max in with the NG, despite being very different. How is 737max vs. 320neo?

Best regards
Thomas

I'm talking about Boeing's systemic quality control issues. Here I gave an example which I faced personally - on the plane of other generation. This shows that problems with the quality of Boeing emerged long before the release of the model MAX. If we recall the statistics before 2000-Boeing had very, very serious problems. Sorry, but the statistics are as follows: at the moment in the catastrophes of Boeing 737 killed more people than a total of deaths in the disasters of Tu-134 and Tu-154 in total (and they are very often like to cite as an example of unreliability of the design). And here's a brand new MAX8 for six months has killed about 350 people. You still don't see the problem?
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:14 pm

I read somewhere that without Boeing sales, the USA would run such a huge deficit the dollar would immediately crash and become nearly worthless. Any truth to that?
 
jetmechanicdave
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:23 pm

Scorpius wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
I would like to note one more thing. In January I flew 737-800 (if I'm not mistaken, this generation NG). The plane of the airline "Pobeda", they are all new, the oldest less than 5 years. And here is a photo of the state of the seam rivets I made on my smartphone.
Image
Do you think it is normal to produce aircraft with this quality of connection using rivets, or does the Boeing Corporation need to seriously work on controlling the quality of production?
This is just one small example.


Oh no, it's a miracle the plane didn't rip apart! The 737 is only the most popular jet airliner produced. Do you think they are just held together with super glue and prayer? Furthermore, why did you get on it if you felt your safety might be in jeopardy?

I hope you never get a look at a Stearman or Piper Cub...

I'm sorry, are you trying to say that this is an acceptable level of quality? Then I'm not surprised that Boeing planes fall so often. However, if you want to give up the Airbus market or someone else, then continue to do so.


That’s chipped paint and there is nothing wrong with that. If the river heads have trailing dirt it means they are loose. There is nothing wrong with this picture. I see it daily
Aircraft Mechanic and Airliners.net Forum Moderator
 
Scorpius
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:58 pm

jetmechanicdave wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Oh no, it's a miracle the plane didn't rip apart! The 737 is only the most popular jet airliner produced. Do you think they are just held together with super glue and prayer? Furthermore, why did you get on it if you felt your safety might be in jeopardy?

I hope you never get a look at a Stearman or Piper Cub...

I'm sorry, are you trying to say that this is an acceptable level of quality? Then I'm not surprised that Boeing planes fall so often. However, if you want to give up the Airbus market or someone else, then continue to do so.


That’s chipped paint and there is nothing wrong with that. If the river heads have trailing dirt it means they are loose. There is nothing wrong with this picture. I see it daily

Oh, no. The fact is that it is not chipped and not dirt. Maybe on the photo and not too visible, but it is a rivet where the broken connection to the sheet. Dark circles are not dirt, but cracks between the rivet and the plating metal. Normally, the rivet should be flush with the metal, which it fixes - without gaps, jams, hollows, cracks and similar defects.
 
jetmechanicdave
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:17 pm

Scorpius wrote:
jetmechanicdave wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
I'm sorry, are you trying to say that this is an acceptable level of quality? Then I'm not surprised that Boeing planes fall so often. However, if you want to give up the Airbus market or someone else, then continue to do so.


That’s chipped paint and there is nothing wrong with that. If the river heads have trailing dirt it means they are loose. There is nothing wrong with this picture. I see it daily

Oh, no. The fact is that it is not chipped and not dirt. Maybe on the photo and not too visible, but it is a rivet where the broken connection to the sheet. Dark circles are not dirt, but cracks between the rivet and the plating metal. Normally, the rivet should be flush with the metal, which it fixes - without gaps, jams, hollows, cracks and similar defects.


Ahh yes I see what you’re taking about now. I’m on my phone here with the resolution turned down. Yea that’s not good.
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scbriml
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:02 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
and you want Boeing to make it right since you feel they are to blame.


Where have I said "I blame Boeing" for these two crashes?

It's not me that wants Boeing to fix MCAS, the FAA have mandated it after grounding them. Once you appreciate exactly how poorly MCAS was implemented, you'd want it fixed before setting foot on a MAX, that's for sure.

https://leehamnews.com/2019/03/15/bjorn ... -302-crash
One now asks why such check and limits were not implemented in the first place? There are several areas of question marks over Boeing’s problems with the 737 MAX’s sensors and stability augmentation system:

It’s strange the AoA signal to the Air data computer gets corrupted on brand new aircraft with only months between presumably two cases of it happening.
It’s also strange there were no balances or checks in the system to check the signals were correct and not erroneous. The signals were used to trigger powerful and potentially dangerous functions in the flight control system.
Finally, it’s strange how MCAS was allowed to trim the horizontal tailplane full nose down. It’s not needed to fulfill its intended stabilizing function in a remote part of the flight envelope. By allowing this to happen, MCAS can overpower the pilot’s elevator control and render the aircraft uncontrollable.

There will be a lot of debate around the implementation of the MCAS function for the 737 MAX. With the fix, Boeing and FAA now show what was wrong with the implementation in the first place.


Even Boeing's first communication after the Lion crash said MCAS can render the plane uncontrollable.
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tommy1808
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:05 pm

scbriml wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
and you want Boeing to make it right since you feel they are to blame.


Where have I said "I blame Boeing" for these two crashes?

It's not me that wants Boeing to fix MCAS, the FAA have mandated it after grounding them. Once you appreciate exactly how poorly MCAS was implemented, you'd want it fixed before setting foot on a MAX, that's for sure.


Didn't they mandate it before as well, only given an end of April deadline and, obviously, not grounded until?

Best regards
Thomas
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N867DA
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:15 pm

It's sad that safety is blended with nationalism, politics, and shareholder finances on here. It pairs well with the push to deregulate industry safety and cleanliness standards as a whole in favor of currency.

Never forget the DC-10 got grounded in '79 for maintenance issues, not an inherent defect, but it needed to be done.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:41 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Sorry, but the statistics are as follows: at the moment in the catastrophes of Boeing 737 killed more people than a total of deaths in the disasters of Tu-134 and Tu-154 in total (and they are very often like to cite as an example of unreliability of the design).


Please provide us with the statistics you are talking about, especially corrected with the miles flown and the number in service.
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LMP737
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
LMP737 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I don't want to derail the main threads with talking about the political stunts some countries and airlines are pulling with grounding the 737Max. Singapore has even banned the type. The debris from the Ethiopian crash is probably still hot to the touch yet these countries think they already know what the problem is. Nevermind that several experts have already said that MCAS would not be active at the altitude and configuration of the Ethiopian flight.

If the investigations conclude that Boeing didn't build a deathtrap and they are not the primary reason for the crashes, then I believe the FAA must punish these entities somehow. The airlines and nations that grounded the 737Max and made dubious claims should have their landing and overflight rights to the US suspended for no less than one year. Any slots held at airports will be revoked and sold to the next qualified highest bidder. These entities need to understand that are consequences for unfounded actions and not waiting for the results of an investigation.


You have no idea what you are talking about do you?


So what caused the two accidents? Why don't you tell us?



Let me see here there have been two fatal accidents with a new type aircraft. Should we hope for the best and hope it doesn't happen again while Boeing looks for a fix? Or err on the side of caution?

This proposal of yours about banning airlines from nations that ground the MAX has to be one of the most idiotic things I have read in all my years on a.net. Do you not think these countries would not respond in kind? Did you know that China is one of these countries and that it's one of the biggest buyers of 737's? The Chinese government has the power to tell their airlines to start ordering planes from someone else. What do you think that would do to Boeing's finances? I'm guessing none of this entered your mind did it? Instead you went off on some non-nonsensical rant.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
WIederling
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:30 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
The 737NG/Max has an accident rate of .13 fatal incidents per million miles flown while the A320 has an accident of .11 fatal incidents per millions miles flown.


If the numbers were reversed it would be an obvious black and white issue for the same posters.
A320 crash prone, 737 best product ever. :-)))))))))))))))
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:44 am

WIederling wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
The 737NG/Max has an accident rate of .13 fatal incidents per million miles flown while the A320 has an accident of .11 fatal incidents per millions miles flown.


If the numbers were reversed it would be an obvious black and white issue for the same posters.
A320 crash prone, 737 best product ever. :-)))))))))))))))


Hopefully airbus learns from Boeing's mistake and doesn't keep reusing and old design and jamming on things that don't fit right. Hopefully they opt for a clean sheet design for the next generation of narrow bodies.
 
WIederling
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:55 am

Jouhou wrote:
WIederling wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
The 737NG/Max has an accident rate of .13 fatal incidents per million miles flown while the A320 has an accident of .11 fatal incidents per millions miles flown.


If the numbers were reversed it would be an obvious black and white issue for the same posters.
A320 crash prone, 737 best product ever. :-)))))))))))))))


Hopefully airbus learns from Boeing's mistake and doesn't keep reusing and old design and jamming on things that don't fit right. Hopefully they opt for a clean sheet design for the next generation of narrow bodies.


Not really a looming danger to begin with.
A300, A310, A320, A330, A340, 'A350, A380 all have standalone certifications.
The NEO types build on the CEO version.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A3 ... ht_testing 4000 hours over 36 month
vs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_73 ... ht_testing and 2000 hours over 14 month
for a much larger change scope.
Murphy is an optimist
 
tommy1808
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:12 am

Jouhou wrote:
WIederling wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
The 737NG/Max has an accident rate of .13 fatal incidents per million miles flown while the A320 has an accident of .11 fatal incidents per millions miles flown.


If the numbers were reversed it would be an obvious black and white issue for the same posters.
A320 crash prone, 737 best product ever. :-)))))))))))))))


Hopefully airbus learns from Boeing's mistake and doesn't keep reusing and old design and jamming on things that don't fit right. Hopefully they opt for a clean sheet design for the next generation of narrow bodies.


They already had a steep learning curve about limits of fly by wire (LH WAW overrun), how important parameter protection and validation is (Ariane 4 first flight), the A330 wasn't made by grandfathering the A300 ......

Interesting question is why Boeing didn't leverage the lessons Airbus learned ....

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
ltbewr
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:21 am

The Ethiopian government has sent the 'black boxes' to France for their BEA to examine them rather than to the USA's NTSB. One has to believe their government doesn't trust the USA govenment's NTSB due to its current openly racist and anti-Muslim leadership in Pres. Trump and the Republican party as well as Boeing's closeness to our politicans. Yes, France has it own issues as to racism and anti-Muslim government leadership as well as too closeness of Airbus with them, but right now for Ethiopia to get unbiased determination of the crash of one of their national airliners, I would rather have France do it as well.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:23 am

ltbewr wrote:
The Ethiopian government has sent the 'black boxes' to France for their BEA to examine them rather than to the USA's NTSB. One has to believe their government doesn't trust the USA govenment's NTSB due to its current openly racist and anti-Muslim leadership in Pres. Trump and the Republican party as well as Boeing's closeness to our politicans. Yes, France has it own issues as to racism and anti-Muslim government leadership as well as too closeness of Airbus with them, but right now for Ethiopia to get unbiased determination of the crash of one of their national airliners, I would rather have France do it as well.


Ethiopia isnt a muslim country. They are primarily Christian/Ethiopian Orthodox.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:42 am

VSMUT wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
The Ethiopian government has sent the 'black boxes' to France for their BEA to examine them rather than to the USA's NTSB. One has to believe their government doesn't trust the USA govenment's NTSB due to its current openly racist and anti-Muslim leadership in Pres. Trump and the Republican party as well as Boeing's closeness to our politicans. Yes, France has it own issues as to racism and anti-Muslim government leadership as well as too closeness of Airbus with them, but right now for Ethiopia to get unbiased determination of the crash of one of their national airliners, I would rather have France do it as well.


Ethiopia isnt a muslim country. They are primarily Christian/Ethiopian Orthodox.


Thank you for the correction, indeed Ethiopia in dominate Christian, but it is about 1/3rd Muslim and suspect the government there needs to be sensitive to them.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:18 pm

ltbewr wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
The Ethiopian government has sent the 'black boxes' to France for their BEA to examine them rather than to the USA's NTSB. One has to believe their government doesn't trust the USA govenment's NTSB due to its current openly racist and anti-Muslim leadership in Pres. Trump and the Republican party as well as Boeing's closeness to our politicans. Yes, France has it own issues as to racism and anti-Muslim government leadership as well as too closeness of Airbus with them, but right now for Ethiopia to get unbiased determination of the crash of one of their national airliners, I would rather have France do it as well.


Ethiopia isnt a muslim country. They are primarily Christian/Ethiopian Orthodox.


Thank you for the correction, indeed Ethiopia in dominate Christian, but it is about 1/3rd Muslim and suspect the government there needs to be sensitive to them.


Now you're just making stuff up to fit your conclusion. Ethiopia is no stranger to persecuting minorities, and the country is led by a marxist-leninist political party.

Just face it, they didnt choose to send the recorders to France and not the US, because 33 percent of the population might take offense over the US President having said negative things about muslims in the past, and the FAA and Boeing somehow being construed as anti-Muslim. If that extremely far-fetched scenario was somehow the case, they would never even have ordered 707s, 727s, 737s, 757s, 767, 777s and 787s.
 
WIederling
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:48 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Interesting question is why Boeing didn't leverage the lessons Airbus learned ....

why would you look back to those just catching up? You are ahead!
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Aesma
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:54 pm

N867DA wrote:
It's sad that safety is blended with nationalism, politics, and shareholder finances on here. It pairs well with the push to deregulate industry safety and cleanliness standards as a whole in favor of currency.

Never forget the DC-10 got grounded in '79 for maintenance issues, not an inherent defect, but it needed to be done.


If maintenance, or here piloting, mistakes, are too easy to make, and accidents ensue, then I would argue it is a design issue.

In fact I remember at least one example, on the 737 also, where following a crash caused by the pilots, it was mandated to change something in the cockpit.

Here it is, following the Helios crash :

In March 2011, the Federal Aviation Administration in the United States released an Airworthiness Directive requiring all Boeing 737 aircraft from −100 to −500 models to be fitted with two additional cockpit warning lights.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:30 pm

In the mean time, French president Macron is visiting Ethiopia (and will be visiting China) to urge the Ethiopian goverment to ditch Boeing and buy Airbus planes instead.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... bus-orders
https://www.reuters.com/article/ethiopi ... SL8N2111O1
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKCN1QV1X1
https://seekingalpha.com/news/3442920-a ... x-grounded
 
oschkosch
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Re: Politics and the 737Max

Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:04 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
In the mean time, French president Macron is visiting Ethiopia (and will be visiting China) to urge the Ethiopian goverment to ditch Boeing and buy Airbus planes instead.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... bus-orders
https://www.reuters.com/article/ethiopi ... SL8N2111O1
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKCN1QV1X1
https://seekingalpha.com/news/3442920-a ... x-grounded
nothing wrong in him doing so. :-)

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