Virtual737
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Unions. As relevant as ever?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:32 pm

A thread in (un)civil aviation was at risk of veering into off-topic land (can you imagine?) so I thought I'd start a thread here. I'm hoping for some open discussion with some actual reasoning to back up any opinions.

My thoughts are:

1.) Any organisation that wants my membership on the basis that they are fighting for my legal rights while, at the same time, threatening or implying that I will be a "scab" if I decide not to join (and so undermining my legal rights) is unlikely to be near the top of my trust list.

2.) The sheer hatred shown on picket lines (I grew up in 1970s UK) is something I'd expect to see at a Millwall vs West Ham football match.

3.) Employment law (certainly in the UK) has changed so much (for the benefit of the employee) that many unfair practices can be handled in court / tribunal at little or no cost to the claimant.

4.) I've always made up my own mind and don't do things just because my father / brother / uncle did it. If you do what you did, you get what you got.

5.) A number of other factors that might see the light of day if this thread goes anywhere.

I should also say that I have no doubt that unions and strikes have been beneficial for workers and working conditions on several (even many) occasions in the past. Does that alone mean that times have not changed?

Please try and be at least half way civil. I'd be interested in opinions and the reasoning behind them.
Last edited by Virtual737 on Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Magog
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Re: Unions. As relevant as every?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:40 pm

The need for unions to protect worker’s safety and working conditions is gone. Government has taken that role over. This is a good thing because not everyone is a union member.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Unions. As relevant as every?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:41 pm

Magog wrote:
The need for unions to protect worker’s safety and working conditions is gone. Government has taken that role over. This is a good thing because not everyone is a union member.

:checkmark:
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die,
 
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casinterest
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:06 pm

Unions may not be as Relevant as ever, but remember Unions were created for workers that do menial but valuable tasks and need to be protected from oppressive working conditions. There are places in the United States ( mining, manufacturing,agriculture) where these Unions are still very valuable. Especially in right to work states. Remember these workers are desperate for a job, and may not have the skills or other to make a go at other more rewarding jobs.

My career and industry do not need unions as most of the work and skills are demand oriented. I get paid well for my job, and while training and education is key. It takes a certain ability to solve problems independently that gives value. So no Union for me.

Other Unions such as in the Airline industry exist due to the ability of management to monopolize on the popularity of the career. In the case of Pilots, the Airlines are in a pinch. Not enough pilots are actually moving through the ranks , and incentives are going higher to induce more people to enter the career.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:08 pm

casinterest wrote:
Unions may not be as Relevant as ever, but remember Unions were created for workers that do menial but valuable tasks and need to be protected from oppressive working conditions. There are places in the United States ( mining, manufacturing,agriculture) where these Unions are still very valuable. Especially in right to work states. Remember these workers are desperate for a job, and may not have the skills or other to make a go at other more rewarding jobs.

My career and industry do not need unions as most of the work and skills are demand oriented. I get paid well for my job, and while training and education is key. It takes a certain ability to solve problems independently that gives value. So no Union for me.

Other Unions such as in the Airline industry exist due to the ability of management to monopolize on the popularity of the career. In the case of Pilots, the Airlines are in a pinch. Not enough pilots are actually moving through the ranks , and incentives are going higher to induce more people to enter the career.


Thank you. You've raised a couple of points there that were not previously apparent to me.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:29 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
A thread in (un)civil aviation was at risk of veering into off-topic land (can you imagine?) so I thought I'd start a thread here. I'm hoping for some open discussion with some actual reasoning to back up any opinions.

My thoughts are:

1.) Any organisation that wants my membership on the basis that they are fighting for my legal rights while, at the same time, threatening or implying that I will be a "scab" if I decide not to join (and so undermining my legal rights) is unlikely to be near the top of my trust list.

2.) The sheer hatred shown on picket lines (I grew up in 1970s UK) is something I'd expect to see at a Millwall vs West Ham football match.

3.) Employment law (certainly in the UK) has changed so much (for the benefit of the employee) that many unfair practices can be handled in court / tribunal at little or no cost to the claimant.

4.) I've always made up my own mind and don't do things just because my father / brother / uncle did it. If you do what you did, you get what you got.

5.) A number of other factors that might see the light of day if this thread goes anywhere.

I should also say that I have no doubt that unions and strikes have been beneficial for workers and working conditions on several (even many) occasions in the past. Does that alone mean that times have not changed?

Please try and be at least half way civil. I'd be interested in opinions and the reasoning behind them.


Agree entirely. I left EAL to pursue an other career in aviation. It was pretty clear it was doomed for, among other reasons, a financially crippled company and irrecoverable labor relations.

Seniority has good and bad points. It proved there to be a set a handcuffs that took everyobody down.

GF
 
Virtual737
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:33 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Seniority has good and bad points. It proved there to be a set a handcuffs that took everyobody down.

GF


In what respect? Did senior crew have too much say? Too many rights or too much remuneration that would never be given up to try and turn things around, or something else?
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:47 pm

casinterest wrote:
Especially in right to work states. .

For the first time since the debate on right to work laws became mainstream, I finally understand the logic behind it and have gone from "leans oppose" to "leans support". After moving to WA, the job I was offered was based on the condition that I join the union and pay dues. If I refused to join, I'd still have to pay "fair share" dues. There are some perks I'm enjoying, but I'd much rather have been given the choice of whether to opt in to the union benefits or stick with the non-union benefits (especially since I've been non-union and the benefits aren't that bad). Now, the union I belong to doesn't have a bad reputation, but I feel my dues are going to some people sitting in an office just waiting to meddle whether they're asked or not. They're not visible, except for a newsletter every month or so.

So, I'd support RTW laws, on the condition that people are given the option to join the union and its benefits or not join and have default benefits; and that if a person opts in to the union, they pay full dues and if the person decides to opt out, they be allowed to do so after the collective bargaining agreement lapses but before a new one is put into place.

Unions are still relevant in certain professions; however, for my profession, it's pretty much irrelevant.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
910A
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:33 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Now, the union I belong to doesn't have a bad reputation, but I feel my dues are going to some people sitting in an office just waiting to meddle whether they're asked or not. They're not visible, except for a newsletter every month or so.


Let me ask this question. Do you belong to an organization let's say for example NRA, AAA, AARP, or maybe your local church? How would they be able to provide benefits to the members without some sort of dues structure.

Another non-benefit to the worker in Right to Work States..According to a study by the Economic Policy Institute, or EPI, wages for a typical full-time worker in right-to-work states are 3.1 percent lower, this is true for both union and nonunion workers alike—workers in non-right-to-work states earn more than those in right-to-work states. RTW laws supporters claim that companies will move to their state because of the RTW laws, but their is no evidence that this law creates new employment. Check out the promises that the Republicans legislature members promised in Indiana, Michigan and Oklahoma and then compare the employment numbers, number of businesses moving in from a union state, the benefits promised are non-existent.

Despite ambitious claims by proponents, the evidence is overwhelming that:

• Right-to-work laws have not succeeded in boosting employment growth in the states that have adopted them.

• The case of Oklahoma – closest in time to the conditions facing those states now considering such legislation – is particularly discouraging regarding the law’s ability to spur job growth. Since the law passed in 2001, manufacturing employment and relocations into the state reversed their climb and began to fall, precisely the opposite of what right-to-work advocates promised.

• For those states looking beyond traditional or low wage manufacturing jobs – whether to higher-tech manufacturing, to “knowledge” sector jobs, or to service industries dependent on consumer spending in the local economy – there is reason to believe that right-to-work laws may actually harm a state’s economic prospects.


https://www.epi.org/publication/bp300/

History has shown us that unions are one of the few organized groups that have the capacity to successfully advocate for the economic interests of working people. Some of the successful programs unions have supported such as Social Security Act, Affordable Care Act, payment of overtime, vacations, holidays, etc have improved the economic interest of the employees.

Having worked in two states as a government employee in a union state and a right to work state, I would take the union in a heartbeat.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:23 pm

If unions exist to protect employees from unfair workplace and employment practices by their employer, why did Sen. Bernie Sanders' campaign staff just decide to unionize?

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/15/politics ... index.html

Apparently they came to the realization that you just can't trust a Socialist.... :rotfl:

So much for people volunteering to be part of the Sanders staff - after all, that'll result in a grievance that you're taking away union work!
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:26 pm

Seniority prevents movement out of the failing airline, senior pilots can’t afford to start over and that’s if other carriers are even hiring. Starting at the bottom of another list at middle age is financially hard, not to mention going back to junior equipment, reserve schedules or commuting to a new domicile. I flew with lots of 727 pilots who were resigned to riding it out to the end. That’s when I said goodbye.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:54 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Seniority prevents movement out of the failing airline, senior pilots can’t afford to start over and that’s if other carriers are even hiring. Starting at the bottom of another list at middle age is financially hard, not to mention going back to junior equipment, reserve schedules or commuting to a new domicile. I flew with lots of 727 pilots who were resigned to riding it out to the end. That’s when I said goodbye.


Aha, understood. Those higher on the seniority list had more to lose if they went elsewhere. Last dibs on the rota etc.
 
cpd
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:54 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
A thread in (un)civil aviation was at risk of veering into off-topic land (can you imagine?) so I thought I'd start a thread here. I'm hoping for some open discussion with some actual reasoning to back up any opinions.

My thoughts are:

1.) Any organisation that wants my membership on the basis that they are fighting for my legal rights while, at the same time, threatening or implying that I will be a "scab" if I decide not to join (and so undermining my legal rights) is unlikely to be near the top of my trust list.

2.) The sheer hatred shown on picket lines (I grew up in 1970s UK) is something I'd expect to see at a Millwall vs West Ham football match.

3.) Employment law (certainly in the UK) has changed so much (for the benefit of the employee) that many unfair practices can be handled in court / tribunal at little or no cost to the claimant.

4.) I've always made up my own mind and don't do things just because my father / brother / uncle did it. If you do what you did, you get what you got.

5.) A number of other factors that might see the light of day if this thread goes anywhere.

I should also say that I have no doubt that unions and strikes have been beneficial for workers and working conditions on several (even many) occasions in the past. Does that alone mean that times have not changed?

Please try and be at least half way civil. I'd be interested in opinions and the reasoning behind them.


No. 1 & 2, did this ever happen to you? Or are you just recalling stories from elsewhere.

I’m a union member, my union is nothing like that. We are all just normal people who care about our jobs and ensuring that our workers aren’t ripped off.

Employer unions must also be considered too, but nobody talks about these groups who lobby vigorously against anything they don’t like.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:11 pm

cpd wrote:
No. 1 & 2, did this ever happen to you? Or are you just recalling stories from elsewhere.


I've never been in a union or even been in an industry that is unionised (that could well be my ignorance). Maybe I'm also looking back too far and things have changed, but the thread in civil aviation that spawned the start of this thread had clear undertones of "non union members are scabs" regardless of whether they have crossed a picket line. It also had a comment to the effect that "Scabs are people that cross LEGAL picket lines", whereas it should have read something like "Scabs are people that LEGALLY cross LEGAL picket lines".

In terms of the point 2 and the hatred etc, it was part of my upbringing. It seemed that almost every night Arthur Scargill had his face on the TV near a picket line with the banners and the shouted hatred and absolute intimidation of those that crossed the picket line regardless of any reason those individuals had to make that decision.

...and then there are the comments of... "a scab is a scab for life". There is no forgiveness, ever. There is no trying to understand an opinion from someone else's point of view. They are / were so hell bent on the "I'm fighting for your rights, why aren't you!" mentality that maybe they missed the possibility that the "scab" had a different point of view.

Comments such as "I was on strike for 6 months. I went without pay for 6 months. I had to sell everything. I almost lost my house, my marriage etc". It's as if brainwashing had taken place and sure as heck doesn't sound particularly wise.

Another incident that shaped my views was in the mid 1980s during the teacher strikes in the UK. All but one of my teachers didn't turn up, but in walked Mr Oates and the first thing he said was.... "teaching was poorly paid when I entered the profession. i don't have the right to strike, i knew what i was getting into", or words to that effect. Many would call him a scab, scarred for life, but to me he was genuinely one of the most upstanding, do anything for anybody people I've met in almost 50 years. Yet hated to the core for life by some because of one ethical position he took during one week almost 40 years ago.
 
cpd
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:40 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
cpd wrote:
No. 1 & 2, did this ever happen to you? Or are you just recalling stories from elsewhere.


I've never been in a union or even been in an industry that is unionised (that could well be my ignorance). Maybe I'm also looking back too far and things have changed, but the thread in civil aviation that spawned the start of this thread had clear undertones of "non union members are scabs" regardless of whether they have crossed a picket line. It also had a comment to the effect that "Scabs are people that cross LEGAL picket lines", whereas it should have read something like "Scabs are people that LEGALLY cross LEGAL picket lines".

In terms of the point 2 and the hatred etc, it was part of my upbringing. It seemed that almost every night Arthur Scargill had his face on the TV near a picket line with the banners and the shouted hatred and absolute intimidation of those that crossed the picket line regardless of any reason those individuals had to make that decision.

...and then there are the comments of... "a scab is a scab for life". There is no forgiveness, ever. There is no trying to understand an opinion from someone else's point of view. They are / were so hell bent on the "I'm fighting for your rights, why aren't you!" mentality that maybe they missed the possibility that the "scab" had a different point of view.

Comments such as "I was on strike for 6 months. I went without pay for 6 months. I had to sell everything. I almost lost my house, my marriage etc". It's as if brainwashing had taken place and sure as heck doesn't sound particularly wise.

Another incident that shaped my views was in the mid 1980s during the teacher strikes in the UK. All but one of my teachers didn't turn up, but in walked Mr Oates and the first thing he said was.... "teaching was poorly paid when I entered the profession. i don't have the right to strike, i knew what i was getting into", or words to that effect. Many would call him a scab, scarred for life, but to me he was genuinely one of the most upstanding, do anything for anybody people I've met in almost 50 years. Yet hated to the core for life by some because of one ethical position he took during one week almost 40 years ago.


Thanks for proving my point, although one or two lines of text would have been adequate.

Apart from the small problem that you haven’t been in a union (like mine for instance), you also seem to have ignored employer and industry unions. They also deserve your scrutiny.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:59 pm

cpd wrote:
[

Thanks for proving my point, although one or two lines of text would have been adequate.



Not at all condescending. Thanks for your input.
 
PPVRA
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:11 pm

Unionism is a good thing, but governments have longed created spoiled childs out of them by giving them far too much power. This may have been a reaction from unions having too little legal protections from earlier days, but it’s nonetheless an imbalance that needs to be fixed.

Closed shops don’t need to be banned, they need to be negotiated. Government needs to understand that employment/work is NOT a right. Legislation that enforces closed shops or that ban closed shops are both bad ideas.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Pi7472000
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:26 pm

It is interesting that as union power has decreased, wage inequality and the income gap between the rich and poor have increased. Eventually we will reach a tipping point where workers will need to unite again to stop this wage gap between the rich and poor.

It is interesting that Trump voters, who oppose unions, are generally worse off economically and would benefit from unions and worker protections.
 
cpd
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:11 am

PPVRA wrote:
Unionism is a good thing, but governments have longed created spoiled childs out of them by giving them far too much power. This may have been a reaction from unions having too little legal protections from earlier days, but it’s nonetheless an imbalance that needs to be fixed.

Closed shops don’t need to be banned, they need to be negotiated. Government needs to understand that employment/work is NOT a right. Legislation that enforces closed shops or that ban closed shops are both bad ideas.


It depends on the country. Here, they have very little impact. The only unions with too much power are the industry or employer/management unions, these are the ones that have almost unfettered access to government and all the influence. That lobbying power is what concerns me. It should be transparent too so that everything is free for all to see and judge.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:13 am

910A wrote:
Let me ask this question. Do you belong to an organization let's say for example NRA, AAA, AARP, or maybe your local church? How would they be able to provide benefits to the members without some sort of dues structure.

To answer your first question: no.

To answer your second question: I can choose to NOT be part of their organization. I don't have to join the NRA to own a gun (or viceversa) or take gun lessons or advocate for gun safety. And because I am not forced to join, I can weigh the benefits of joining vs not joining before making a decision. If I join, then I agree to pay dues; if I don't agree to join, the NRA can't force me to join.

THAT is why RTW laws are controversial: because unions force employees to pay dues whether they become members or not. Now, people put up a stink about "union using money to support candidates/causes I don't support", but at the same time they go shop at places that also support candidates/causes they don't support, or that because they aren't union they shouldn't pay, even though they get the union benefit. Those are separate discussions.

910A wrote:
Another non-benefit to the worker in Right to Work States..According to a study by the Economic Policy Institute, or EPI, wages for a typical full-time worker in right-to-work states are 3.1 percent lower, this is true for both union and nonunion workers alike—workers in non-right-to-work states earn more than those in right-to-work states.
Correlation does not imply causation. Many non-RTW states also have a higher cost of living so in terms of earnings, they HAVE to be paid more.

910A wrote:
RTW laws supporters claim that companies will move to their state because of the RTW laws, but their is no evidence that this law creates new employment.

Boeing begs to differ. Having expanded their footprint in MIssouri, Oklahoma, Alabama, and South Carolina, all 4 states are places where employees have flocked to or have been newly added to the company. In fact, it is because of union overreach that Boeing opened a facility in South Carolina. Granted, MO voters "vetoed" the RTW law, but then again, union membership is strong in the state (just not in all professions).

910A wrote:
Check out the promises that the Republicans legislature members promised in Indiana, Michigan and Oklahoma and then compare the employment numbers, number of businesses moving in from a union state, the benefits promised are non-existent.

Not all companies have the economic means to move to another state; it's not just a matter of purchasing real estate and putting up a sign. Are they gonna move ALL their employees to another state? How do you weigh the cost of having experienced people leave the company because they refuse to move?

910A wrote:
History has shown us that unions are one of the few organized groups that have the capacity to successfully advocate for the economic interests of working people. Some of the successful programs unions have supported such as Social Security Act, Affordable Care Act, payment of overtime, vacations, holidays, etc have improved the economic interest of the employees.

I don't dispute that. And that may be the case for YOUR profession. In my situation, I can no longer use partial vacation days or sick leave like I used to. It's either charge an entire day to it or charge to another chargeline that is limited to no more than 20 hrs/yr (so if I need to stay home because I'm sick, I use 8 hours of sick leave; if I go to work for 3 hours and leave because I don't feel well, I charge 3hrs to work and 5hrs to the other...and behold: 5 hours down the drain).

The only net benefits I've seen so far are that if I worked 6 minutes of overtime, I'll get paid those 6 minutes; no more trigger events for overtime (i.e. having to work X hours on top of the 80 before OT kicks in), and the HDHP insurance I have is free (as opposed to having to pay about $46/month for it and the dental plan).

910A wrote:
Having worked in two states as a government employee in a union state and a right to work state, I would take the union in a heartbeat.

But that's a different scenario:
1. Two different employers in two different states. Odds are the union gives you a better chance to have a decent job than the RTW non-union job. In my case, it's the same employer, all in non-RTW states.
2. Were you given the choice to join or were you told "join or no job"? Even if the union benefits are better, I would still like to have the chance to weigh the differences between non-union and union. I was happy with my non-union benefits so I wished I would have had the option to keep them.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:37 am

Yes, the government takes care of all work safety issues now. Modern unions are nothing more than adults acting like spoiled children who throw a tantrum when they don't get their way.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:22 am

Unions are relevant. The unions should address the needs of all employees. In the Netherlands, they are mostly focused on older employees, because of those groups you will find the most people whom are organized. Makes them less relevant for younger people, but that should not be the case though. We see since the 70-ish the wealth gap has been growing. Most businesses are well organized thus have a great voice in government. This needs to be balanced to have a healthy society.

TTailedTiger wrote:
Yes, the government takes care of all work safety issues now. Modern unions are nothing more than adults acting like spoiled children who throw a tantrum when they don't get their way.


I remember a certain poster whom advocated for a country to come to the add of a certain company because of ..... well.... because he felt they were mistreated by the bad bad world and this poster hasn't been back to the post the started and thus takes no responsibility for his rant. But I guess that is ok, but employees trying to balance the power with their employers are acting like spoiled children. Check.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:25 am

Unions today fails because of one thing - greed. When you add the union's greed to management's greed, what you get is a failure to find middle ground that's palatable to all parties, which means scorched earth all the time. Too many failed companies are proof of that.

If a Union can work together with management, things would definitely be much more conducive.
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Dutchy
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:44 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Unions today fails because of one thing - greed. When you add the union's greed to management's greed, what you get is a failure to find middle ground that's palatable to all parties, which means scorched earth all the time. Too many failed companies are proof of that.

If a Union can work together with management, things would definitely be much more conducive.


Rhineland model vs. Anglo-Saxon model. ;)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:07 am

Dutchy wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Unions today fails because of one thing - greed. When you add the union's greed to management's greed, what you get is a failure to find middle ground that's palatable to all parties, which means scorched earth all the time. Too many failed companies are proof of that.

If a Union can work together with management, things would definitely be much more conducive.


Rhineland model vs. Anglo-Saxon model. ;)


Thanks, never knew about those!

If it works for Germany, why not elsewhere?
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Dutchy
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:16 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Unions today fails because of one thing - greed. When you add the union's greed to management's greed, what you get is a failure to find middle ground that's palatable to all parties, which means scorched earth all the time. Too many failed companies are proof of that.

If a Union can work together with management, things would definitely be much more conducive.


Rhineland model vs. Anglo-Saxon model. ;)


Thanks, never knew about those!

If it works for Germany, why not elsewhere?


Rhineland model is more focused on all interest, not just the stock owners value. So the owners, employees, clients, society at large are all stakeholders in a company. The Rhineland model says you need to consider all the stakeholders.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Channex757
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:59 am

One thing the OP mentions is that he was brought up in the Seventies in Britain (as was I, born 1963). That time was pretty poisonous and represented a low point in both politics and Trade Unionism.

Balanced against this is the good unions have done and continue to do. A good union should be constantly evolving and must always put the welfare of the members first. That's why I am wary of the mega-unions that cross trade boundaries with huge memberships and autocratic leadership.

To go back to the Seventies; we had a leader called Arthur Scargill of the Mineworkers. The most militant union of the lot. He was responsible for a lot of the bad feeling towards unions that even persist today, but the NUM and its history is storied and it was that union that secured pensions and benefits for its members as well as stopping child labour down the mines. Killed miners no longer leave destitute widows and families.

Union membership is like a cross between insurance and a huge club. There may be negatives but on the whole unions have done far more good in this world.
 
Virtual737
Topic Author
Posts: 588
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:43 pm

Channex757 wrote:
One thing the OP mentions is that he was brought up in the Seventies in Britain (as was I, born 1963). That time was pretty poisonous and represented a low point in both politics and Trade Unionism.

Balanced against this is the good unions have done and continue to do. A good union should be constantly evolving and must always put the welfare of the members first. That's why I am wary of the mega-unions that cross trade boundaries with huge memberships and autocratic leadership.

To go back to the Seventies; we had a leader called Arthur Scargill of the Mineworkers. The most militant union of the lot. He was responsible for a lot of the bad feeling towards unions that even persist today, but the NUM and its history is storied and it was that union that secured pensions and benefits for its members as well as stopping child labour down the mines. Killed miners no longer leave destitute widows and families.

Union membership is like a cross between insurance and a huge club. There may be negatives but on the whole unions have done far more good in this world.


Thanks for the balance. Indeed those days in the UK were very poisonous. My only real visibility of unions has been the NUM (through the continuous and possibly biased media coverage back in the day) and the frequent strikes in parts of European aviation, particularly French / Belgium for ATC and Lufthansa / Air France for the airlines. Hence my original question and desire for further info.
 
cpd
Posts: 5958
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:09 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Yes, the government takes care of all work safety issues now. Modern unions are nothing more than adults acting like spoiled children who throw a tantrum when they don't get their way.


Oh really? They are still caught out dragging their feet on work safety issues numerous times. Only the work of unions to publish these shortcomings forces governments to intervene (after looking stupid).
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1260
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:20 pm

cpd wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Yes, the government takes care of all work safety issues now. Modern unions are nothing more than adults acting like spoiled children who throw a tantrum when they don't get their way.


Oh really? They are still caught out dragging their feet on work safety issues numerous times. Only the work of unions to publish these shortcomings forces governments to intervene (after looking stupid).


Or technology... My uncle is a supervisor at a containment facility. If the computer reports a failed sensor or failsafe then no one goes to work. 99% of the time it is a false alarm but management has never put their employees at risk. They are not unionized.
 
Ken777
Posts: 9863
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Re: Unions. As relevant as every?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:56 pm

Magog wrote:
The need for unions to protect worker’s safety and working conditions is gone. Government has taken that role over. This is a good thing because not everyone is a union member.


You forgot wages. The lack of union strength in the US has ensured that Minimum Wage is FAR below the poverty level. We also are below the Gold Standard for vacation benefits - those starting at 4 weeks a year. Our two weeks must be considered the Plastic Standard. But what the hell, we're suckers when it comes to benefits or basic wages.

Worker's safety is pretty good when OSHA is aggressively enforced, How does Swamp Mouth stand on increasing funding for OSHA? Just don't be in the mining industry.

Government has done a pretty sorry job run a lot of ways that could have been done better with unions improving the environment.

I worked in Australia for 8 years. Because I was considered "management" I was not in a union, but everyone below my job level was. The Aussie system with apprentice training was superior to anything the GOP is capable of delivering. Starting wages were sufficient of providing a decent standard of living - especially with a medical system that does not drive you to bankruptcy while outperforming the US in terms of outcomes.

Yep, Government has been a pretty sorry job in a lot of areas,, but the wealthy really don't give a damn.
 
Okie
Posts: 4019
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:27 pm

cpd wrote:
Oh really? They are still caught out dragging their feet on work safety issues numerous times. Only the work of unions to publish these shortcomings forces governments to intervene (after looking stupid).

Bovine Manure. You seem to be seriously disconnected with businesses and complicit in false diatribe.
You seem to think that an employee is some kind of a disposable piece of equipment instead of an asset.

Every business in the US is defined by its TRIR rate.
If a companies TRIR rate is high then they will not be considered for contract. Period.
If you own a company you do everything you can to protect your employee otherwise you will be out of business.

Please show me a present day successful company that drags their feet on safety.



Okie
 
cpd
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Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:53 pm

Okie wrote:
cpd wrote:
Oh really? They are still caught out dragging their feet on work safety issues numerous times. Only the work of unions to publish these shortcomings forces governments to intervene (after looking stupid).

Bovine Manure. You seem to be seriously disconnected with businesses and complicit in false diatribe.
You seem to think that an employee is some kind of a disposable piece of equipment instead of an asset.

Every business in the US is defined by its TRIR rate.
If a companies TRIR rate is high then they will not be considered for contract. Period.
If you own a company you do everything you can to protect your employee otherwise you will be out of business.

Please show me a present day successful company that drags their feet on safety.



Okie



I think employees are valuable assets. I have no idea what you are talking about. Doesn’t make sense at all. I know here that a lot of workplaces have been caught on safety issues, and sadly people have died as a result of it. Appropriate standards were not met and allowed these tragedies to happen.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4621
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:42 pm

Well, with more states legalizing gambling (including sports gambling), Mexican cartels and inner-city gangs muscling in on the drug trade and payday lenders cutting into the loan-sharking business, I imagine unions are as relevant as ever (if not even more so) to the bottom line of criminal organizations.

Oh, wait, that was not what you had in mind...
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
Airontario
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:33 pm

 
Okie
Posts: 4019
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:02 pm

cpd wrote:
I have no idea what you are talking about.

Quite obvious.

Airontario wrote:
Okie wrote:Please show me a present day successful company that drags their feet on safety. Amazon


Again, someone with no idea.

What is their TRIR rate. Come on now. Double average, 5,000 times average.
You have to use some method to distinguish between a 2 person company and a 575,000 employee company.
By the way I do not use Amazon for other reasons.

Okie
 
cpd
Posts: 5958
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:56 am

Okie wrote:
cpd wrote:
I have no idea what you are talking about.

Quite obvious.


You are accusing me of being against workplace health and safety. And it's completely baseless. I'm going to stay civil, but if you want to get to personal attacks (which you are), I can do that as well.

I'm guessing you are putting the blame for this accident (https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/coo ... myk6u.html) onto the truck driver, and not the company. Obviously effective brakes should not be required. The truck crashed and exploded in a huge fireball.

The company was eventually taken to task after significant failures were found:
https://www.smh.com.au/national/cootes- ... 32sa2.html
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-06/ ... ue/5303716

And a right wing media link for balance:
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/ ... 0c5f63f9cc

This is why additional oversight is needed to make sure appropriate safety standards are in place. If companies are left to their own devices, there is the risk that shortcuts will be taken and those shortcuts may lead to serious accidents that can kill many people.
 
LMP737
Posts: 5902
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:09 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Seniority prevents movement out of the failing airline, senior pilots can’t afford to start over and that’s if other carriers are even hiring. Starting at the bottom of another list at middle age is financially hard, not to mention going back to junior equipment, reserve schedules or commuting to a new domicile. I flew with lots of 727 pilots who were resigned to riding it out to the end. That’s when I said goodbye.


I've always viewed this as a cop out used by people afraid of change,

If airline industry were non-union would that mean that airlines would hire people from other carriers at the same or similar rate of pay. I would venture to say no.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8205
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:30 pm

LMP737 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Seniority prevents movement out of the failing airline, senior pilots can’t afford to start over and that’s if other carriers are even hiring. Starting at the bottom of another list at middle age is financially hard, not to mention going back to junior equipment, reserve schedules or commuting to a new domicile. I flew with lots of 727 pilots who were resigned to riding it out to the end. That’s when I said goodbye.


I've always viewed this as a cop out used by people afraid of change,

If airline industry were non-union would that mean that airlines would hire people from other carriers at the same or similar rate of pay. I would venture to say no.


Seniority and unionism are two different things. Skywest airlines has a seniority list, but no union.

Heck, pay rates based on longevity is yet a third animal not dependent on seniority or unionism.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3188
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Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:32 am

Unionism in America, at least, does nothing but create division for no good reason. I worked in a union job in college and was offered a spot in management. I literally took the job for the experience and the bump in pay. But one day I was everyone's friend and the next day, literally moments after I was announced as the new supervisor I became the enemy. It's a toxic environment.

I see it even more now that I am in a closed shop state. I met our Business Agent a few weeks ago for the first time, not a clue in the world who he was, walk past him and say "Good morning!" with a smile on my face. The arrogant ass looks at me and says "What did you just say to me?" with a nasty look on his face. There's no trust, and they perpetuate it because it gives them job security.

I've watched two contracts negotiations come and go where the union forced it onto the members due to some loophole. The leadership sits and calls us greedy while they do the same damn things. It drives me up the wall because they feed the members this BS about how much they care while they screw them. It's extortion.

My favorite was a couple of weeks ago going on the the local union's website. They have a page called the wall of scabs with the names listed of people who crossed a picket line 10 years ago. That is child level pettiness out of adults and it's disgraceful.

I have a history degree with a focus in labor history. I've studied unions, I've seen their need and the amazing things they did for the American worker. But they've turned into legalized maffia organizations.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
WIederling
Posts: 8487
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:24 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
I have a history degree with a focus in labor history. I've studied unions, I've seen their need and the amazing things they did for the American worker. But they've turned into legalized maffia organizations.


history repeats:
you need the function but the real existing version is dysfunctional.

I used to like the German solution:
unions exist, are strong but worker representation is a separate thing were unions have influence but few exclusive rights.
you can do a "Betriebsrat" setup with no union involvement. No closed shop. If unions act selfserving they lose members.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination
Things like job training / education is a state controlled system. ( Duales Ausbildungssystem )
Workplace safety is regulated by industry selective coop organisations ( Berufsgenossenschaft )
Healthcare, pensions too are out of union scope. healthcare plan and pensions can not be trashed
by your employer.
Murphy is an optimist
 
windy95
Posts: 2746
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:40 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Seniority has good and bad points. It proved there to be a set a handcuffs that took everyobody down.

GF


In what respect? Did senior crew have too much say? Too many rights or too much remuneration that would never be given up to try and turn things around, or something else?


The bad point of seniority is that smarter, harder working, more efficient or better trained workers are held back because of a number. Slackers and slugs can get better shifts and days off which causes a ton of friction between workers
MAGA2020 KAG2020
 
Virtual737
Topic Author
Posts: 588
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Unions. As relevant as ever?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:07 pm

windy95 wrote:
The bad point of seniority is that smarter, harder working, more efficient or better trained workers are held back because of a number. Slackers and slugs can get better shifts and days off which causes a ton of friction between workers


Did unions have anything to do with the concept of seniority lists or did they exist before and / or outside of the influence of unions?

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