MikeDrop
Posts: 447
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:21 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:34 am

winginit wrote:

Cummings has of course already satisfied the burden of proof in his letter, where he provides numerous reasons for the request that include, among others, the potential crime of Donald Trump inflating his net worth for a bank in order to secure a loan.

Our opinions on the matter are irrelevant. It'll be settled in court, and Cummings at the very least will likely get a copy of Trump's tax returns.


I read the letter you provided. Are you really down to going after Trump over brand value estimates in 2012? Really? This is where we’ve gotten to? We will see if SCOTUS allows the Dems to go on this tax return fishing expedition. If the last 2.5 years are any indication it will be another nothing burger. I suspect that the real implication of this will be when the Republicans win congress again and decide to go after all their opponents finances and tax returns just to make sure no crimes have been committed.

Mike Drop
 
seb146
Posts: 19973
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:51 am

MikeDrop wrote:
winginit wrote:

Cummings has of course already satisfied the burden of proof in his letter, where he provides numerous reasons for the request that include, among others, the potential crime of Donald Trump inflating his net worth for a bank in order to secure a loan.

Our opinions on the matter are irrelevant. It'll be settled in court, and Cummings at the very least will likely get a copy of Trump's tax returns.


I read the letter you provided. Are you really down to going after Trump over brand value estimates in 2012? Really? This is where we’ve gotten to? We will see if SCOTUS allows the Dems to go on this tax return fishing expedition. If the last 2.5 years are any indication it will be another nothing burger. I suspect that the real implication of this will be when the Republicans win congress again and decide to go after all their opponents finances and tax returns just to make sure no crimes have been committed.

Mike Drop


Again, Mike:

IF HE IS INNOCENT, WHY DOESN'T HE JUST RELEASE HIS RETURNS?????

Many of us have been asking this for like three years. "Under Audit" is not an excuse. Read the IRS laws and rules. If you were innocent, would you withhold papers? Yes, of course because reasons, right? Any jury would understand and let you walk. Right? You think he is innocent? Why does he not release his returns? Have you not wondered about that? Like ever? Of course not. Don't question dear leader.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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seahawk
Posts: 8359
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:37 am

You do not have to proof you are innocent, the accusers have to proof you are guilty.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14103
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:58 am

The request by Subpoenas of Donald Trump's tax returns and financial records from his accountants by the House committee under law is about seeking details of Trump's debts and sources of income that many believe are deep, unethical or illegal conflicts of interest as President. That is why the law exists, to be a check on any President who may be compromised in their policies for personal financial gain.
Of course, this is seen by many as 'well Mueller couldn't get Trump, so lets try this'. The Democrats run a risk of being trashed about doing a 'witch hunt' against the President and used against them in the 2020 elections and likely Pres. Trump will fight to the SCOTUS and hopefully for him win a stay of the IRS and his accountants having to turn over documents to Congress on grounds of privacy, 4th and 5th Amendment rights and for his and national security as a sitting President.
 
stratclub
Posts: 1241
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:40 am

MikeDrop wrote:
winginit wrote:

Cummings has of course already satisfied the burden of proof in his letter, where he provides numerous reasons for the request that include, among others, the potential crime of Donald Trump inflating his net worth for a bank in order to secure a loan.

Our opinions on the matter are irrelevant. It'll be settled in court, and Cummings at the very least will likely get a copy of Trump's tax returns.


I read the letter you provided. Are you really down to going after Trump over brand value estimates in 2012? Really? This is where we’ve gotten to? We will see if SCOTUS allows the Dems to go on this tax return fishing expedition. If the last 2.5 years are any indication it will be another nothing burger. I suspect that the real implication of this will be when the Republicans win congress again and decide to go after all their opponents finances and tax returns just to make sure no crimes have been committed.

Mike Drop


Could you expand on what the implications of the letter really mean? Does the letter actually provide burden of proof of anything?
 
stratclub
Posts: 1241
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:37 pm

seb146 wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
winginit wrote:

Cummings has of course already satisfied the burden of proof in his letter, where he provides numerous reasons for the request that include, among others, the potential crime of Donald Trump inflating his net worth for a bank in order to secure a loan.

Our opinions on the matter are irrelevant. It'll be settled in court, and Cummings at the very least will likely get a copy of Trump's tax returns.


I read the letter you provided. Are you really down to going after Trump over brand value estimates in 2012? Really? This is where we’ve gotten to? We will see if SCOTUS allows the Dems to go on this tax return fishing expedition. If the last 2.5 years are any indication it will be another nothing burger. I suspect that the real implication of this will be when the Republicans win congress again and decide to go after all their opponents finances and tax returns just to make sure no crimes have been committed.

Mike Drop


Again, Mike:

IF HE IS INNOCENT, WHY DOESN'T HE JUST RELEASE HIS RETURNS?????


What a worn out worthless argument. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence He is not releasing his tax returns because there is no legal requirement to do so.

Unless the letter actually shows or generates something criminal in DJT reporting to the IRS, then congress would not have a valid reason under the 1924 statute to request records from the IRS. In essence, what congress would be doing if they proceeded with an investigation is weaponizing the IRS for a witch hunt which would be violating DJT's 4th amendment rights. I didn't read the entire 1924 statute, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have a provision that grants congress the power to suspend someones Constitutional Rights.

Are exaggerated brand value estimates the same as misrepresenting income or net worth to avoid paying taxes?

Six prior administrations have illegally weaponized the IRS for political gain. https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/ ... Coolidge-R What a despicable political tactic that if used by someone holding public office or their administration needs to prosecuted for the heinous crime it is...............
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 9158
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:07 pm

stratclub wrote:
seb146 wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:

I read the letter you provided. Are you really down to going after Trump over brand value estimates in 2012? Really? This is where we’ve gotten to? We will see if SCOTUS allows the Dems to go on this tax return fishing expedition. If the last 2.5 years are any indication it will be another nothing burger. I suspect that the real implication of this will be when the Republicans win congress again and decide to go after all their opponents finances and tax returns just to make sure no crimes have been committed.

Mike Drop


Again, Mike:

IF HE IS INNOCENT, WHY DOESN'T HE JUST RELEASE HIS RETURNS?????


Unless the letter actually shows or generates something criminal in DJT reporting to the IRS, then congress would not have a valid reason under the 1924 statute to request records from the IRS. In essence, what congress would be doing if they proceeded with an investigation is weaponizing the IRS for a witch hunt which would be violating DJT's 4th amendment rights. I didn't read the entire 1924 statute, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have a provision that grants congress the power to suspend someones Constitutional Rights.


There are other concerns, and Congressional business itself can be valid reason, as the courts are an equal power to Congress and are loathe to overstep in these cases. Judge Nap's analysis below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHk2x8CfKro
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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trpmb6
Posts: 2550
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Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:08 pm

This is going off topic, but seriously, releasing his tax returns accomplishes nothing. Even if there is nothing there it will be twisted and mangled as much as possible by the left to try and paint him in a bad light.

Just like the Mueller report. Remember when the left kept saying "Trump and the Right must accept the findings of the Mueller Investigation" and here we are. Now it's the left saying we need to continue going. Just continue grasping at straws until you find one you like and run with it. That's all this is.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 9158
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Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:30 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
This is going off topic, but seriously, releasing his tax returns accomplishes nothing. Even if there is nothing there it will be twisted and mangled as much as possible by the left to try and paint him in a bad light.

Just like the Mueller report. Remember when the left kept saying "Trump and the Right must accept the findings of the Mueller Investigation" and here we are. Now it's the left saying we need to continue going. Just continue grasping at straws until you find one you like and run with it. That's all this is.


It isn’t just the left. Many centrists and independents, libertarians like my grandfather, and several conservative columnists are disturbed by what’s in the report. The yardstick moving from ‘we never had foreign contacts’ to ‘there were some but they are not criminal’ to ‘we talked only about Russian adoptions’ to Rudy’s new ‘it’s fine to take info from Russians - it only matters how they got it’ is a crazy status quo to embrace. Further to see reports the Chief of Staff, WH counsel, and Campaign manager all ignored or refused instructions they knew to be illegal/unethical is ridiculous. We are in the throes of an amateur hour shitshow and people want to pretend it’s all OK because the opposition party happens to be stupidly overeager.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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casinterest
Posts: 8493
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:20 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
This is going off topic, but seriously, releasing his tax returns accomplishes nothing. Even if there is nothing there it will be twisted and mangled as much as possible by the left to try and paint him in a bad light.

Just like the Mueller report. Remember when the left kept saying "Trump and the Right must accept the findings of the Mueller Investigation" and here we are. Now it's the left saying we need to continue going. Just continue grasping at straws until you find one you like and run with it. That's all this is.


Trump promised to release his returns. If anything, all of this highlights how much he lies and flip-flops.
Now there are serious concerns about his abuse of campaign finance laws, and his business dealing leading up to the election. The tax forms are more about legal evidence than his lies at this point.
This isn't a left vs right issue. It is about integrity, honesty, and the sanctity of our election process.

The Mueller report proved that Trump should be removed from office as he is unfit to hold it with his personal protection being above and beyond the needs of the country.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
wingman
Posts: 3694
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:25 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
This is going off topic, but seriously, releasing his tax returns accomplishes nothing. Even if there is nothing there it will be twisted and mangled as much as possible by the left to try and paint him in a bad light.

Just like the Mueller report. Remember when the left kept saying "Trump and the Right must accept the findings of the Mueller Investigation" and here we are. Now it's the left saying we need to continue going. Just continue grasping at straws until you find one you like and run with it. That's all this is.


Following the playbook first authored by Newt Gingrich and faithfully executed by Starr and Kavanaugh, only difference is that Russian interference rises to a slightly higher standard than gobbling the goo, well if you’re not a Republican that is. The tax returns will show just what a massive con man scumbag Trump is. Repubs won’t give a shit but I bet Independents will and that’s all that matters in this bloodsport.
 
wingman
Posts: 3694
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Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:06 pm

I just Trumps morning Twitter tantrum. Christ Almighty, the man-child is truly unhinged. No way initiating impeachment against this asshole makes bloodsport sense, let him rant on and on, he’ll take all these GOP boot lickers and 50 years of bedrock conservative ideals right down the electoral shitter. He knocked it out of the fucking park this morning boys, holy shit.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 9158
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Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:17 pm

You know we’re on the batshit train anytime he claims this is ‘the greatest economy ever’ - yet again this morning.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
seb146
Posts: 19973
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:31 pm

stratclub wrote:
seb146 wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:

I read the letter you provided. Are you really down to going after Trump over brand value estimates in 2012? Really? This is where we’ve gotten to? We will see if SCOTUS allows the Dems to go on this tax return fishing expedition. If the last 2.5 years are any indication it will be another nothing burger. I suspect that the real implication of this will be when the Republicans win congress again and decide to go after all their opponents finances and tax returns just to make sure no crimes have been committed.

Mike Drop


Again, Mike:

IF HE IS INNOCENT, WHY DOESN'T HE JUST RELEASE HIS RETURNS?????


What a worn out worthless argument. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence He is not releasing his tax returns because there is no legal requirement to do so.

Unless the letter actually shows or generates something criminal in DJT reporting to the IRS, then congress would not have a valid reason under the 1924 statute to request records from the IRS. In essence, what congress would be doing if they proceeded with an investigation is weaponizing the IRS for a witch hunt which would be violating DJT's 4th amendment rights. I didn't read the entire 1924 statute, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have a provision that grants congress the power to suspend someones Constitutional Rights.

Are exaggerated brand value estimates the same as misrepresenting income or net worth to avoid paying taxes?

Six prior administrations have illegally weaponized the IRS for political gain. https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/ ... Coolidge-R What a despicable political tactic that if used by someone holding public office or their administration needs to prosecuted for the heinous crime it is...............


I am not asking about Congress. Democrats know they have a pretty high bar set in order to subpoena someone's tax returns. That is why it is not done.

I am asking about the occupant of the White House. Not Congress.

If you are accused of a crime and sitting on evidence to prove your innocence, would you file lawsuit after lawsuit to keep that evidence hidden? No. You would come forward with the evidence proving your innocence. That is why I want to know why he keeps screaming he is innocent but never provides any proof. If he is innocent, he should let everyone see with our own lying eyes.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
winginit
Posts: 2514
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:02 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
I read the letter you provided. Are you really down to going after Trump over brand value estimates in 2012? Really? This is where we’ve gotten to?


Allow me to re-phrase your question in a way that remains accurate:

Are you really down to going after Trump for prosecutable crimes that he may have committed in 2012? Really? This is where we've gotten to?

The answer is of course yes.
 
stratclub
Posts: 1241
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:42 am

All I can really say is could you folks just give the tax forms non issue a break? Repeat after me. THERE IS NO LEGAL REASON FOR TRUMP TO RELEASE HIS TAX RETURNS. End of story. The narrative from the democratic left and their media (CNN and MSNBC) for the last 2 1/2 years has been extreme and irrational hate and out right lies for Trump with no means, even if it is totally fabricated and unjustified, being fair game to destroy Trump.

If the Demos had wanted to win, they should not have had a candidate that was not a totally corrupt treasonous POS that did make decisions as Secretary of State for her and Bills Clinton Money Laundering Foundation that made millions of dollars and did in fact caused people to die. (Benghazi and Haiti)

Why are we not harassing Hillary for her horrific treasonous crimes against humanity and the American people? Oh, I forgot. She is not Trump so she gets a pass.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:51 pm

If there was anything damning in Trump's tax returns it would have been leaked by now.
 
winginit
Posts: 2514
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:12 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
If there was anything damning in Trump's tax returns it would have been leaked by now.


I honestly can't tell whether or not you're joking, because that sounds entirely ridiculous. Leaked by who? A tax preparer or auditor who would be imprisoned for doing so?

Furthermore, let's say there was something damning - why would you release it already? You'd naturally wait until we were closer to the election to have the greatest impact if it truly was damning.

On that note, I'm not convinced that folks out there who might have gathered content that could hurt Trump after the 2016 election (the long rumored 'n-word tape' comes to mind) aren't just sitting on it until mid to late 2020.

stratclub wrote:
All I can really say is could you folks just give the tax forms non issue a break? Repeat after me. THERE IS NO LEGAL REASON FOR TRUMP TO RELEASE HIS TAX RETURNS. End of story.


Wrong. again. It's quite simple I'm surprised you can't seem to follow along?

1. The House Oversight Committee has been tipped off via Michael Cohen's sworn testimony that Donald Trump may have previously inflated his net worth in order to secure loans - a prosecutable crime. Yes, Michael Cohen has a history of lying, even under oath, but that history does not make his claims any less worthy of investigation to determine their accuracy

2. Thus, Elijah Cummings is citing the clear cut law that allows him to request anyone's tax returns from the Treasury Department, and the Treasury Department must comply

3. Trump is trying to fight this, but he will of course lose based on legal precedent, and at the very least Elijah Cummings will see Donald Trump's tax returns

End of story. Accept those facts. Move on with your life.

stratclub wrote:
Why are we not harassing Hillary for her horrific treasonous crimes against humanity and the American people?


Shouldn't you be whining to Trump and his DOJ about that? What ever happened to lock her up? Oh wait... no evidence, so no indictments...

You're really bad at this.
 
BN747
Posts: 6418
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:27 pm

winginit wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
If there was anything damning in Trump's tax returns it would have been leaked by now.


I honestly can't tell whether or not you're joking, because that sounds entirely ridiculous. Leaked by who? A tax preparer or auditor who would be imprisoned for doing so?

Furthermore, let's say there was something damning - why would you release it already? You'd naturally wait until we were closer to the election to have the greatest impact if it truly was damning.

On that note, I'm not convinced that folks out there who might have gathered content that could hurt Trump after the 2016 election (the long rumored 'n-word tape' comes to mind) aren't just sitting on it until mid to late 2020.

stratclub wrote:
All I can really say is could you folks just give the tax forms non issue a break? Repeat after me. THERE IS NO LEGAL REASON FOR TRUMP TO RELEASE HIS TAX RETURNS. End of story.


Wrong. again. It's quite simple I'm surprised you can't seem to follow along?

1. The House Oversight Committee has been tipped off via Michael Cohen's sworn testimony that Donald Trump may have previously inflated his net worth in order to secure loans - a prosecutable crime. Yes, Michael Cohen has a history of lying, even under oath, but that history does not make his claims any less worthy of investigation to determine their accuracy

2. Thus, Elijah Cummings is citing the clear cut law that allows him to request anyone's tax returns from the Treasury Department, and the Treasury Department must comply

3. Trump is trying to fight this, but he will of course lose based on legal precedent, and at the very least Elijah Cummings will see Donald Trump's tax returns

End of story. Accept those facts. Move on with your life.

stratclub wrote:
Why are we not harassing Hillary for her horrific treasonous crimes against humanity and the American people?


Shouldn't you be whining to Trump and his DOJ about that? What ever happened to lock her up? Oh wait... no evidence, so no indictments...

You're really bad at this.


The House Oversight Committee has been tipped off via Michael Cohen's sworn testimony that Donald Trump may have previously inflated his net worth in order to secure loans - a prosecutable crime.

The House Oversight Committee has been tipped off via Michael Cohen's sworn testimony that Donald Trump PREVIOUSLY inflated his net worth in order to secure loans - a prosecutable crime.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
BN747
Posts: 6418
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:33 pm

stratclub wrote:
Why are we not harassing Hillary for her horrific treasonous crimes against humanity and the American people? Oh, I forgot.


Why is it that everyone who says this...can never be precise or specific in such crimes against humanity?

Will someone find the meme photo that read "The Repiblicans after 1 week of learning"
-----------------------------------------------------Photo - 1600 Pennsylvania Ave (the WH) in Flames.
-> End Caption................................................b]...the Russians had help Hillary and she won"[/b]

..and post it.

We all know that is true.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 9158
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:22 pm

stratclub wrote:
All I can really say is could you folks just give the tax forms non issue a break? Repeat after me. THERE IS NO LEGAL REASON FOR TRUMP TO RELEASE HIS TAX RETURNS. End of story. The narrative from the democratic left and their media (CNN and MSNBC) for the last 2 1/2 years has been extreme and irrational hate and out right lies for Trump with no means, even if it is totally fabricated and unjustified, being fair game to destroy Trump.

If the Demos had wanted to win, they should not have had a candidate that was not a totally corrupt treasonous POS that did make decisions as Secretary of State for her and Bills Clinton Money Laundering Foundation that made millions of dollars and did in fact caused people to die. (Benghazi and Haiti)

Why are we not harassing Hillary for her horrific treasonous crimes against humanity and the American people? Oh, I forgot. She is not Trump so she gets a pass.


The law couldn’t be more clear:

26 USC 6103 subpart (f)

(1) Committee on Ways and Means, Committee on Finance, and Joint Committee on Taxation
Upon written request from the chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means of the House of Representatives, the chairman of the Committee on Finance of the Senate, or the chairman of the Joint Committee on Taxation, the Secretary shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request, except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer shall be furnished to such committee only when sitting in closed executive session unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure.


No requirement to suggest a crime or anything of the sort - the Treasury Secretary shall furnish upon request by the Ways and Means committee chairman, period. Mnuchin has not complied, and is in violation of statute.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
stratclub
Posts: 1241
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:59 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
All I can really say is could you folks just give the tax forms non issue a break? Repeat after me. THERE IS NO LEGAL REASON FOR TRUMP TO RELEASE HIS TAX RETURNS. End of story. The narrative from the democratic left and their media (CNN and MSNBC) for the last 2 1/2 years has been extreme and irrational hate and out right lies for Trump with no means, even if it is totally fabricated and unjustified, being fair game to destroy Trump.

If the Demos had wanted to win, they should not have had a candidate that was not a totally corrupt treasonous POS that did make decisions as Secretary of State for her and Bills Clinton Money Laundering Foundation that made millions of dollars and did in fact caused people to die. (Benghazi and Haiti)

Why are we not harassing Hillary for her horrific treasonous crimes against humanity and the American people? Oh, I forgot. She is not Trump so she gets a pass.


The law couldn’t be more clear:

26 USC 6103 subpart (f)

(1) Committee on Ways and Means, Committee on Finance, and Joint Committee on Taxation
Upon written request from the chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means of the House of Representatives, the chairman of the Committee on Finance of the Senate, or the chairman of the Joint Committee on Taxation, the Secretary shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request, except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer shall be furnished to such committee only when sitting in closed executive session unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure.


No requirement to suggest a crime or anything of the sort - the Treasury Secretary shall furnish upon request by the Ways and Means committee chairman, period. Mnuchin has not complied, and is in violation of statute.


Well ya. If it wasn't for that pesky 4th Amendment, weaponizing the IRS would be a slam dunk. I did not see anything in the statute that said that Ways and Means have the power to suspend someones Constitutional Rights in regards to unreasonable search and seizure. In any case, they won't get his tax returns. So, keep reading and eventually you can probably figure out how his lawyer is going to shut this vindictive witch hunt down.

I think it's great that the Democrats keep pushing their despicable campaign of hate and harassment. All they are doing is handing Trump a landslide victory in 2020. Yup. I'm sure every time that the Democrats spew more vitriol, The President just laughs and remarks: "Those silly out of their minds Demos certainly are the gift that keeps on giving, and not in a bad way like an STD, but in a good way like Christmas or the Easter Bunny." :rotfl:
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 9158
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:09 am

stratclub wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
All I can really say is could you folks just give the tax forms non issue a break? Repeat after me. THERE IS NO LEGAL REASON FOR TRUMP TO RELEASE HIS TAX RETURNS. End of story. The narrative from the democratic left and their media (CNN and MSNBC) for the last 2 1/2 years has been extreme and irrational hate and out right lies for Trump with no means, even if it is totally fabricated and unjustified, being fair game to destroy Trump.

If the Demos had wanted to win, they should not have had a candidate that was not a totally corrupt treasonous POS that did make decisions as Secretary of State for her and Bills Clinton Money Laundering Foundation that made millions of dollars and did in fact caused people to die. (Benghazi and Haiti)

Why are we not harassing Hillary for her horrific treasonous crimes against humanity and the American people? Oh, I forgot. She is not Trump so she gets a pass.


The law couldn’t be more clear:

26 USC 6103 subpart (f)

(1) Committee on Ways and Means, Committee on Finance, and Joint Committee on Taxation
Upon written request from the chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means of the House of Representatives, the chairman of the Committee on Finance of the Senate, or the chairman of the Joint Committee on Taxation, the Secretary shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request, except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer shall be furnished to such committee only when sitting in closed executive session unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure.


No requirement to suggest a crime or anything of the sort - the Treasury Secretary shall furnish upon request by the Ways and Means committee chairman, period. Mnuchin has not complied, and is in violation of statute.


Well ya. If it wasn't for that pesky 4th Amendment, weaponizing the IRS would be a slam dunk. I did not see anything in the statute that said that Ways and Means have the power to suspend someones Constitutional Rights in regards to unreasonable search and seizure. In any case, they won't get his tax returns. So, keep reading and eventually you can probably figure out how his lawyer is going to shut this vindictive witch hunt down.

I think it's great that the Democrats keep pushing their despicable campaign of hate and harassment. All they are doing is handing Trump a landslide victory in 2020. Yup. I'm sure every time that the Democrats spew more vitriol, The President just laughs and remarks: "Those silly out of their minds Demos certainly are the gift that keeps on giving, and not in a bad way like an STD, but in a good way like Christmas or the Easter Bunny." :rotfl:


The IRS is not a Congressional body :lol: Ya’ll don’t even know how the country works.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
seb146
Posts: 19973
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:31 am

One investigation went on for over two years and there are still open ended investigations. The main investigation has even been passed on to Congress because they have more power per the Constitution to investigate.

An investigation into one woman went on for years and years and years and yielded nothing and everything against her has been closed but we need to investigate her, even though nothing has been referred to Congress.

Am I the only one who sees the disconnect here?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
stratclub
Posts: 1241
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:58 am

Aaron747 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

The law couldn’t be more clear:

26 USC 6103 subpart (f)

(1) Committee on Ways and Means, Committee on Finance, and Joint Committee on Taxation
Upon written request from the chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means of the House of Representatives, the chairman of the Committee on Finance of the Senate, or the chairman of the Joint Committee on Taxation, the Secretary shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request, except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer shall be furnished to such committee only when sitting in closed executive session unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure.


No requirement to suggest a crime or anything of the sort - the Treasury Secretary shall furnish upon request by the Ways and Means committee chairman, period. Mnuchin has not complied, and is in violation of statute.


Well ya. If it wasn't for that pesky 4th Amendment, weaponizing the IRS would be a slam dunk. I did not see anything in the statute that said that Ways and Means have the power to suspend someones Constitutional Rights in regards to unreasonable search and seizure. In any case, they won't get his tax returns. So, keep reading and eventually you can probably figure out how his lawyer is going to shut this vindictive witch hunt down.

I think it's great that the Democrats keep pushing their despicable campaign of hate and harassment. All they are doing is handing Trump a landslide victory in 2020. Yup. I'm sure every time that the Democrats spew more vitriol, The President just laughs and remarks: "Those silly out of their minds Demos certainly are the gift that keeps on giving, and not in a bad way like an STD, but in a good way like Christmas or the Easter Bunny." :rotfl:


The IRS is not a Congressional body :lol: Ya’ll don’t even know how the country works.

Well, yes I do. Some unhinged Democrats are trying to weaponize the IRS in their never ending vendetta to destroy Trump by any means possible legally or illegally. Already, if AG Bar does his job, some unlucky criminals in HRC and Obama's cozy little witch hunt will be getting prison time. That screwball Sanders is clearly thinking ahead with allowing people in prison to vote. HRC if she won the next election could run the country from prison. Shear genius Bernie.............

Worth repeating. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-imf- ... SKCN1RP0NO
 
BN747
Posts: 6418
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:20 am

We've breached the entry of a Constitutional Crises.

What is happening now, the Executive Branch is openly, brazenly giving the middle finger to the Legislative branch by defying the rule of Law and intervening in a way to directly shut down the normal investigative procedures of Congress.

To be fair, the Trey Goudy Republican Congress got 50 Benghazi investigations.

vs

The Pelosi Democratic Congress has ONE Mueller Investigation...
49 More Mueller Investigations are on par for the course.

And the Republicans are losing their shit over it. If they had their way, they would absolutely stand by silently ...and allow the powers of Congress be stripped away, the Congress, the House body best at representing the will of the people. You allow that and Democracy is DOA. And unable be re-established.

One lesson everyone should take from history is this... Once Power is ceded to an entity, they will not give it back.

Pelosi & the Dems are doing the right thing by demanding...

the Full Mueller Report - where Don McGahn, fm WH Counsel - Not Atty for the president but Attorney for the Office of the President has spent 30 hours with Mueller, not public (Mueller Report)
meaning there is no standing for the claim of Executive Privilege.
the Kushner/Ivanka Security Clearance Scandals
the Cohen charges that the president has defrauded banks via lying on tax filings - Get His Tax Records, the man is a cheat - any of you would get a lengthy jail sentence if you defrauded a bank (he's done it many times).
His stormy Daniels/Karen McDougal Campaign Violations
His Amolument Clause Violations.


Since it appears he is weak and financially compromised..that translates into him being compromised - the nation needs to know whether it's head is under financial strain or not.
And it needs to know is the nation under threat because it's leader refuses to acknowledge Russian penetration into the American electoral process - he has no interest in looking into that.

His panic filled tweets..suggest he is doing all he can to avoid being exposed - because all the above is likely very true, 49 more investigations are not needed, this one investigation has exposed enough.

His panic filled tweets also tell us his 'America is being disgraced by the Mueller Report'..

Is a LIE.

It's not America being disgraced, it's him, his own doing, his own actions. No one else.

The Mueller Report means the Truth has arrived.

The question for his loyal supporters...'If your President is compromised by another Foreign Power, Would you like to know...period.
It seems that they are people who choose not to know - like most people can watch how hamburgers are made - from cow to McDonalds.
...aka it's something that cannot be stomached.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
MikeDrop
Posts: 447
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:21 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:26 am

BN747 wrote:
We've breached the entry of a Constitutional Crises.

What is happening now, the Executive Branch is openly, brazenly giving the middle finger to the Legislative branch by defying the rule of Law and intervening in a way to directly shut down the normal investigative procedures of Congress.

To be fair, the Trey Goudy Republican Congress got 50 Benghazi investigations.

vs

The Pelosi Democratic Congress has ONE Mueller Investigation...
49 More Mueller Investigations are on par for the course.

And the Republicans are losing their shit over it. If they had their way, they would absolutely stand by silently ...and allow the powers of Congress be stripped away, the Congress, the House body best at representing the will of the people. You allow that and Democracy is DOA. And unable be re-established.

One lesson everyone should take from history is this... Once Power is ceded to an entity, they will not give it back.

Pelosi & the Dems are doing the right thing by demanding...

the Full Mueller Report - where Don McGahn, fm WH Counsel - Not Atty for the president but Attorney for the Office of the President has spent 30 hours with Mueller, not public (Mueller Report)
meaning there is no standing for the claim of Executive Privilege.
the Kushner/Ivanka Security Clearance Scandals
the Cohen charges that the president has defrauded banks via lying on tax filings - Get His Tax Records, the man is a cheat - any of you would get a lengthy jail sentence if you defrauded a bank (he's done it many times).
His stormy Daniels/Karen McDougal Campaign Violations
His Amolument Clause Violations.


Since it appears he is weak and financially compromised..that translates into him being compromised - the nation needs to know whether it's head is under financial strain or not.
And it needs to know is the nation under threat because it's leader refuses to acknowledge Russian penetration into the American electoral process - he has no interest in looking into that.

His panic filled tweets..suggest he is doing all he can to avoid being exposed - because all the above is likely very true, 49 more investigations are not needed, this one investigation has exposed enough.

His panic filled tweets also tell us his 'America is being disgraced by the Mueller Report'..

Is a LIE.

It's not America being disgraced, it's him, his own doing, his own actions. No one else.

The Mueller Report means the Truth has arrived.

The question for his loyal supporters...'If your President is compromised by another Foreign Power, Would you like to know...period.
It seems that they are people who choose not to know - like most people can watch how hamburgers are made - from cow to McDonalds.
...aka it's something that cannot be stomached.

BN747

Man, that’s a whole lot of words that don’t make any sense. Do you really think anyone is going to read all of that drivel? What a waste of time.

Mike Drop
 
winginit
Posts: 2514
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:31 am

stratclub wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
All I can really say is could you folks just give the tax forms non issue a break? Repeat after me. THERE IS NO LEGAL REASON FOR TRUMP TO RELEASE HIS TAX RETURNS. End of story. The narrative from the democratic left and their media (CNN and MSNBC) for the last 2 1/2 years has been extreme and irrational hate and out right lies for Trump with no means, even if it is totally fabricated and unjustified, being fair game to destroy Trump.

If the Demos had wanted to win, they should not have had a candidate that was not a totally corrupt treasonous POS that did make decisions as Secretary of State for her and Bills Clinton Money Laundering Foundation that made millions of dollars and did in fact caused people to die. (Benghazi and Haiti)

Why are we not harassing Hillary for her horrific treasonous crimes against humanity and the American people? Oh, I forgot. She is not Trump so she gets a pass.


The law couldn’t be more clear:

26 USC 6103 subpart (f)

(1) Committee on Ways and Means, Committee on Finance, and Joint Committee on Taxation
Upon written request from the chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means of the House of Representatives, the chairman of the Committee on Finance of the Senate, or the chairman of the Joint Committee on Taxation, the Secretary shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request, except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer shall be furnished to such committee only when sitting in closed executive session unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure.


No requirement to suggest a crime or anything of the sort - the Treasury Secretary shall furnish upon request by the Ways and Means committee chairman, period. Mnuchin has not complied, and is in violation of statute.


Well ya. If it wasn't for that pesky 4th Amendment, weaponizing the IRS would be a slam dunk. I did not see anything in the statute that said that Ways and Means have the power to suspend someones Constitutional Rights in regards to unreasonable search and seizure. In any case, they won't get his tax returns. So, keep reading and eventually you can probably figure out how his lawyer is going to shut this vindictive witch hunt down.


You're still not following? No constitutional rights are being suspended here as there's plenty of justification for the request as is laid out in full in Cumming's letter. Maybe I just need to post the below again?

winginit wrote:
1. The House Oversight Committee has been tipped off via Michael Cohen's sworn testimony that Donald Trump may have previously inflated his net worth in order to secure loans - a prosecutable crime. Yes, Michael Cohen has a history of lying, even under oath, but that history does not make his claims any less worthy of investigation to determine their accuracy

2. Thus, Elijah Cummings is citing the clear cut law that allows him to request anyone's tax returns from the Treasury Department, and the Treasury Department must comply

3. Trump is trying to fight this, but he will of course lose based on legal precedent, and at the very least Elijah Cummings will see Donald Trump's tax returns


Pray tell, what part of the above do you disagree with? Be specific please.

I know if you're rooting for a Trump victory in 2020 you must, like Trump, be genuinely terrified at the prospect of his tax returns being at the very least reviewed by Congress, but accept that they will be, and move on.
 
BN747
Posts: 6418
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:56 am

MikeDrop wrote:
BN747 wrote:
We've breached the entry of a Constitutional Crises.

What is happening now, the Executive Branch is openly, brazenly giving the middle finger to the Legislative branch by defying the rule of Law and intervening in a way to directly shut down the normal investigative procedures of Congress.

To be fair, the Trey Goudy Republican Congress got 50 Benghazi investigations.

vs

The Pelosi Democratic Congress has ONE Mueller Investigation...
49 More Mueller Investigations are on par for the course.

And the Republicans are losing their shit over it. If they had their way, they would absolutely stand by silently ...and allow the powers of Congress be stripped away, the Congress, the House body best at representing the will of the people. You allow that and Democracy is DOA. And unable be re-established.

One lesson everyone should take from history is this... Once Power is ceded to an entity, they will not give it back.

Pelosi & the Dems are doing the right thing by demanding...

the Full Mueller Report - where Don McGahn, fm WH Counsel - Not Atty for the president but Attorney for the Office of the President has spent 30 hours with Mueller, not public (Mueller Report)
meaning there is no standing for the claim of Executive Privilege.
the Kushner/Ivanka Security Clearance Scandals
the Cohen charges that the president has defrauded banks via lying on tax filings - Get His Tax Records, the man is a cheat - any of you would get a lengthy jail sentence if you defrauded a bank (he's done it many times).
His stormy Daniels/Karen McDougal Campaign Violations
His Amolument Clause Violations.


Since it appears he is weak and financially compromised..that translates into him being compromised - the nation needs to know whether it's head is under financial strain or not.
And it needs to know is the nation under threat because it's leader refuses to acknowledge Russian penetration into the American electoral process - he has no interest in looking into that.

His panic filled tweets..suggest he is doing all he can to avoid being exposed - because all the above is likely very true, 49 more investigations are not needed, this one investigation has exposed enough.

His panic filled tweets also tell us his 'America is being disgraced by the Mueller Report'..

Is a LIE.

It's not America being disgraced, it's him, his own doing, his own actions. No one else.

The Mueller Report means the Truth has arrived.

The question for his loyal supporters...'If your President is compromised by another Foreign Power, Would you like to know...period.
It seems that they are people who choose not to know - like most people can watch how hamburgers are made - from cow to McDonalds.
...aka it's something that cannot be stomached.

BN747

Man, that’s a whole lot of words that don’t make any sense. Do you really think anyone is going to read all of that drivel? What a waste of time.

Mike Drop


It makes perfect sense to any native literate English language speaker...it's just a lot of words to the intellectually lazy who hold zero interest in American Democracy, how it works and the Rule of Law...aka Fox News fans. (yes, fingering pointing).

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14103
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:57 am

Since the release of the partially censured Mueller Report last Thursday, Pres. Trump has been overly defensive about it as well as the several investigations connected to him, family and friends. He has made too many Twitter comments that show that and some of his comments may step over the line of obstruction. He is deathly afraid of the truth of his financial position coming out, either from the banks he dealt with and tax returns, especially investments and debts with foreign nationals and banks that may be affecting National policy to the detriment of the USA. I hope that isn't true, but investigations must continue. Yes, the may seem to be political witch hunts by Democrats, but where their is 'smoke' there is 'fire' and the Mueller Report release has shown there is a possible fire that needs to be extinguished quickly before it ends up our country damaged.
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 2550
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:57 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Since the release of the partially censured Mueller Report last Thursday, Pres. Trump has been overly defensive about it as well as the several investigations connected to him, family and friends. He has made too many Twitter comments that show that and some of his comments may step over the line of obstruction. He is deathly afraid of the truth of his financial position coming out, either from the banks he dealt with and tax returns, especially investments and debts with foreign nationals and banks that may be affecting National policy to the detriment of the USA. I hope that isn't true, but investigations must continue. Yes, the may seem to be political witch hunts by Democrats, but where their is 'smoke' there is 'fire' and the Mueller Report release has shown there is a possible fire that needs to be extinguished quickly before it ends up our country damaged.


Look, take it from Trump's perspective. Of course he's going to be defensive. His administration has been rail roaded from the beginning by this investigation that showed there was no coordination between the Trump Campaign and the Russians. The whole narrative even runs counter to how Trump has actually treated Russia the last two years. He fires Comey based on a recommendation written by Rod Rosenstein. The same Rod Rosenstein who opens the special counsel investigation. So the whole volume 2 of the Mueller report is based on him possibly obstructing justice by way of slowing any investigation into something that never happened. (Yes I understand that you can not obstruct an investigation even if you are 100% innocent, but it's fair to say anyone would be upset if they were being investigated for something they didn't do and then saw their associates being targeted with process crimes (excluding manafort for his obvious crimes that were discovered - think of Michael Flynn who had to sell his house to pay for his legal fees because he was being squeezed and possibly caught up in a perjury trap)).

No, I suspect Trump is not worried about what is in his tax returns - Hell he probably doesn't even know what's in them beyond a high level here's what your holdings are. He's got a team of lawyers and accountants to handle all that. What he doesn't want is for some minute detail or tax trick to become a lightening rod for democrats.
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 2550
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:01 pm

BN747 wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
BN747 wrote:
We've breached the entry of a Constitutional Crises.

What is happening now, the Executive Branch is openly, brazenly giving the middle finger to the Legislative branch by defying the rule of Law and intervening in a way to directly shut down the normal investigative procedures of Congress.

To be fair, the Trey Goudy Republican Congress got 50 Benghazi investigations.

vs

The Pelosi Democratic Congress has ONE Mueller Investigation...
49 More Mueller Investigations are on par for the course.

And the Republicans are losing their shit over it. If they had their way, they would absolutely stand by silently ...and allow the powers of Congress be stripped away, the Congress, the House body best at representing the will of the people. You allow that and Democracy is DOA. And unable be re-established.

One lesson everyone should take from history is this... Once Power is ceded to an entity, they will not give it back.

Pelosi & the Dems are doing the right thing by demanding...

the Full Mueller Report - where Don McGahn, fm WH Counsel - Not Atty for the president but Attorney for the Office of the President has spent 30 hours with Mueller, not public (Mueller Report)
meaning there is no standing for the claim of Executive Privilege.
the Kushner/Ivanka Security Clearance Scandals
the Cohen charges that the president has defrauded banks via lying on tax filings - Get His Tax Records, the man is a cheat - any of you would get a lengthy jail sentence if you defrauded a bank (he's done it many times).
His stormy Daniels/Karen McDougal Campaign Violations
His Amolument Clause Violations.


Since it appears he is weak and financially compromised..that translates into him being compromised - the nation needs to know whether it's head is under financial strain or not.
And it needs to know is the nation under threat because it's leader refuses to acknowledge Russian penetration into the American electoral process - he has no interest in looking into that.

His panic filled tweets..suggest he is doing all he can to avoid being exposed - because all the above is likely very true, 49 more investigations are not needed, this one investigation has exposed enough.

His panic filled tweets also tell us his 'America is being disgraced by the Mueller Report'..

Is a LIE.

It's not America being disgraced, it's him, his own doing, his own actions. No one else.

The Mueller Report means the Truth has arrived.

The question for his loyal supporters...'If your President is compromised by another Foreign Power, Would you like to know...period.
It seems that they are people who choose not to know - like most people can watch how hamburgers are made - from cow to McDonalds.
...aka it's something that cannot be stomached.

BN747

Man, that’s a whole lot of words that don’t make any sense. Do you really think anyone is going to read all of that drivel? What a waste of time.

Mike Drop


It makes perfect sense to any native literate English language speaker...it's just a lot of words to the intellectually lazy who hold zero interest in American Democracy, how it works and the Rule of Law...aka Fox News fans. (yes, fingering pointing).

BN747


We were told to by you guys to accept the mueller report when it was released. Why are you not accepting the underlying fact of volume 1 that Trump was not a puppet of Putin? Give it a rest already.

Lets work on some infrastructure, immigration reform and prison reform bills. Those three items have lots of common ground for us to work on. But you see, that doesn't play well with the left's base right now because they don't want to compromise on anything. Just take down Trump. That's the singular goal right now. And the proof is in what the Pelosi led House has accomplished since her re-ascension to the speakership.
 
stratclub
Posts: 1241
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:34 pm

winginit wrote:
stratclub wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

The law couldn’t be more clear:

26 USC 6103 subpart (f)

(1) Committee on Ways and Means, Committee on Finance, and Joint Committee on Taxation
Upon written request from the chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means of the House of Representatives, the chairman of the Committee on Finance of the Senate, or the chairman of the Joint Committee on Taxation, the Secretary shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request, except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer shall be furnished to such committee only when sitting in closed executive session unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure.


No requirement to suggest a crime or anything of the sort - the Treasury Secretary shall furnish upon request by the Ways and Means committee chairman, period. Mnuchin has not complied, and is in violation of statute.


Well ya. If it wasn't for that pesky 4th Amendment, weaponizing the IRS would be a slam dunk. I did not see anything in the statute that said that Ways and Means have the power to suspend someones Constitutional Rights in regards to unreasonable search and seizure. In any case, they won't get his tax returns. So, keep reading and eventually you can probably figure out how his lawyer is going to shut this vindictive witch hunt down.


You're still not following? No constitutional rights are being suspended here as there's plenty of justification for the request as is laid out in full in Cumming's letter. Maybe I just need to post the below again?

winginit wrote:
1. The House Oversight Committee has been tipped off via Michael Cohen's sworn testimony that Donald Trump may have previously inflated his net worth in order to secure loans - a prosecutable crime. Yes, Michael Cohen has a history of lying, even under oath, but that history does not make his claims any less worthy of investigation to determine their accuracy

2. Thus, Elijah Cummings is citing the clear cut law that allows him to request anyone's tax returns from the Treasury Department, and the Treasury Department must comply

3. Trump is trying to fight this, but he will of course lose based on legal precedent, and at the very least Elijah Cummings will see Donald Trump's tax returns


Pray tell, what part of the above do you disagree with? Be specific please.

I know if you're rooting for a Trump victory in 2020 you must, like Trump, be genuinely terrified at the prospect of his tax returns being at the very least reviewed by Congress, but accept that they will be, and move on.


Item-1. Hearsay accusations of tax irregularities years before Trump took office by a convicted felon and known lier is pretty flimsy and does not point to impeachable acts during Trump's Presidency. The fact that the IRS does not have Trump in prison is an affirmation of him not committing criminal acts.

Item-2 Can you cite exactly what law Cummings is charging? Cummings does not care exactly what the law says because he know that he can quote it out of context and be close enough to cause considerable political damage before his request travels through the courts and is rejected.

Item-3 Complete nothing burger.

The fact that they are illegally "weaponizing" the IRS to obtain Trumps tax returns directly points to a 4th Amendment unreasonable search and seizure violation. I guess you just don't get it.................
***********************************************
"The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article ... nstitution

"Impeachment in the United States is the process by which the lower house of a legislature brings charges against a civil [officer of government for crimes alleged to have been committed, analogous to the bringing of an indictment by a grand jury. At the federal level, this is at the discretion of the House of Representatives. Most impeachments have concerned alleged crimes committed while in office, though there have been a few cases in which officials have been impeached and subsequently convicted for crimes committed prior to taking office".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachme ... ted_States

Constitutional Grounds for Impeachment
https://judiciary.house.gov/sites/democ ... Report.pdf

6 prior administrations that illegally "weaponized" the IRS
https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/ ... Coolidge-R

Mnuchin says won't 'weaponize' IRS in request for Trump tax returns
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-imf- ... SKCN1RP0NO
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 9158
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:20 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Since the release of the partially censured Mueller Report last Thursday, Pres. Trump has been overly defensive about it as well as the several investigations connected to him, family and friends. He has made too many Twitter comments that show that and some of his comments may step over the line of obstruction. He is deathly afraid of the truth of his financial position coming out, either from the banks he dealt with and tax returns, especially investments and debts with foreign nationals and banks that may be affecting National policy to the detriment of the USA. I hope that isn't true, but investigations must continue. Yes, the may seem to be political witch hunts by Democrats, but where their is 'smoke' there is 'fire' and the Mueller Report release has shown there is a possible fire that needs to be extinguished quickly before it ends up our country damaged.


Look, take it from Trump's perspective. Of course he's going to be defensive. His administration has been rail roaded from the beginning by this investigation that showed there was no coordination between the Trump Campaign and the Russians. The whole narrative even runs counter to how Trump has actually treated Russia the last two years. He fires Comey based on a recommendation written by Rod Rosenstein. The same Rod Rosenstein who opens the special counsel investigation. So the whole volume 2 of the Mueller report is based on him possibly obstructing justice by way of slowing any investigation into something that never happened. (Yes I understand that you can not obstruct an investigation even if you are 100% innocent, but it's fair to say anyone would be upset if they were being investigated for something they didn't do and then saw their associates being targeted with process crimes (excluding manafort for his obvious crimes that were discovered - think of Michael Flynn who had to sell his house to pay for his legal fees because he was being squeezed and possibly caught up in a perjury trap)).

No, I suspect Trump is not worried about what is in his tax returns - Hell he probably doesn't even know what's in them beyond a high level here's what your holdings are. He's got a team of lawyers and accountants to handle all that. What he doesn't want is for some minute detail or tax trick to become a lightening rod for democrats.


Sorry, just factually incorrect and does not compute.

Image

Being cleared of criminal conspiracy on the available evidence itself does not negate the issues raised in the report.

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house ... ations?amp
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 2550
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:27 pm

They didn't charge. We were told on many occasions to accept the findings of the Mueller report. I am. Who isn't now? You? It's time to govern. Imagine what can be done right now from a democrats perspective. Trump is anxious to make deals. He'd probably accept some stuff most republicans would be opposed to. But that's a compromise. Continue down the investigations and impeachment route and you're just going to guarantee another Trump win, and possibly handing the house back to republicans. Then you get nothing.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 8493
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:34 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
They didn't charge. We were told on many occasions to accept the findings of the Mueller report. I am. Who isn't now? You? It's time to govern. Imagine what can be done right now from a democrats perspective. Trump is anxious to make deals. He'd probably accept some stuff most republicans would be opposed to. But that's a compromise. Continue down the investigations and impeachment route and you're just going to guarantee another Trump win, and possibly handing the house back to republicans. Then you get nothing.


It is clear from all of this that Trump and the GOP do not care about integrity or the Constitution. Trump has engaged in extremely suspect behavior with foriegn governments, betrayed American interests, and tried to obstruct investigations into all of it. The fact that Trump and the GOP cared so much about Benghazi and so little about this, just shows that leading a nation is not in the interest of the GOP or Trump. Just being in power is the only interest. Principles, honor and integrity are gone form that party.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
BN747
Posts: 6418
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:08 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
Man, that’s a whole lot of words that don’t make any sense. Do you really think anyone is going to read all of that drivel? What a waste of time.

Mike Drop


It makes perfect sense to any native literate English language speaker...it's just a lot of words to the intellectually lazy who hold zero interest in American Democracy, how it works and the Rule of Law...aka Fox News fans. (yes, fingering pointing).

BN747


We were told to by you guys to accept the mueller report when it was released. Why are you not accepting the underlying fact of volume 1 that Trump was not a puppet of Putin? Give it a rest already.

Lets work on some infrastructure, immigration reform and prison reform bills. Those three items have lots of common ground for us to work on. But you see, that doesn't play well with the left's base right now because they don't want to compromise on anything. Just take down Trump. That's the singular goal right now. And the proof is in what the Pelosi led House has accomplished since her re-ascension to the speakership.


Only in the world of ‘incomplete mean exactly the same meaning as completes’ does your argument hold water.

You and trump lovers absolutely wish people would stoop discussing the incomplete Mueller Report and move the narrative in a different direction, ignoring of course, the heart of the matter...the Russian interference is a factual harm to nation vs FAT Donny not lifting a finger to address it. In fact, it was announced yesterday that Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney warn Ex-DHS Kirstjen Nielsen not to mention ‘Russian Interference’ in any shape of form around the fat-stupid-one, because it sets him off.

Now, that tells you nothing, but it tells me that the Chunkster-in-Chief is not remotely interested in ‘upholding the Constution and defending America against all enemies, foreign and donestic’...none.

That’s okay in your world not in the world where most Americans puts the country above the needs of one dangerous self-inflicting idiot.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
seb146
Posts: 19973
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:19 pm

seahawk wrote:
You do not have to proof you are innocent, the accusers have to proof you are guilty.


Withholding information because "I say I am innocent and that is all that matters" is not an excuse. We The People have to use legal action for him to prove he is innocent? How messed up is that?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
seb146
Posts: 19973
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:22 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
They didn't charge. We were told on many occasions to accept the findings of the Mueller report. I am. Who isn't now? You? It's time to govern. Imagine what can be done right now from a democrats perspective. Trump is anxious to make deals. He'd probably accept some stuff most republicans would be opposed to. But that's a compromise. Continue down the investigations and impeachment route and you're just going to guarantee another Trump win, and possibly handing the house back to republicans. Then you get nothing.


And the findings in the Mueller Report are "Congress should investigate these areas". Mueller did not absolutely and ones-and-for-all prove no collusion or complete exoneration. Congress has this power and, for the future of the Republic, this needs to be investigated.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 2550
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:26 pm

I think the constant talk about Mueller's report plays better for Trump than it does for the Democrats at this point. I'll try to remember this post for November 2020.
 
bhill
Posts: 1626
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:42 pm

stratclub wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
All I can really say is could you folks just give the tax forms non issue a break? Repeat after me. THERE IS NO LEGAL REASON FOR TRUMP TO RELEASE HIS TAX RETURNS. End of story. The narrative from the democratic left and their media (CNN and MSNBC) for the last 2 1/2 years has been extreme and irrational hate and out right lies for Trump with no means, even if it is totally fabricated and unjustified, being fair game to destroy Trump.

If the Demos had wanted to win, they should not have had a candidate that was not a totally corrupt treasonous POS that did make decisions as Secretary of State for her and Bills Clinton Money Laundering Foundation that made millions of dollars and did in fact caused people to die. (Benghazi and Haiti)

Why are we not harassing Hillary for her horrific treasonous crimes against humanity and the American people? Oh, I forgot. She is not Trump so she gets a pass.


The law couldn’t be more clear:

26 USC 6103 subpart (f)

(1) Committee on Ways and Means, Committee on Finance, and Joint Committee on Taxation
Upon written request from the chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means of the House of Representatives, the chairman of the Committee on Finance of the Senate, or the chairman of the Joint Committee on Taxation, the Secretary shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request, except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer shall be furnished to such committee only when sitting in closed executive session unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure.


No requirement to suggest a crime or anything of the sort - the Treasury Secretary shall furnish upon request by the Ways and Means committee chairman, period. Mnuchin has not complied, and is in violation of statute.


Well ya. If it wasn't for that pesky 4th Amendment, weaponizing the IRS would be a slam dunk. I did not see anything in the statute that said that Ways and Means have the power to suspend someones Constitutional Rights in regards to unreasonable search and seizure. In any case, they won't get his tax returns. So, keep reading and eventually you can probably figure out how his lawyer is going to shut this vindictive witch hunt down.

I think it's great that the Democrats keep pushing their despicable campaign of hate and harassment. All they are doing is handing Trump a landslide victory in 2020. Yup. I'm sure every time that the Democrats spew more vitriol, The President just laughs and remarks: "Those silly out of their minds Demos certainly are the gift that keeps on giving, and not in a bad way like an STD, but in a good way like Christmas or the Easter Bunny." :rotfl:


You must not have read the "UNREASONABLE" portion of that amendment's text. From the sworn testimony of Cohen, and the Committee's concern therein, this seems reasonable to most folks. Either way, it will most likely go the the District, then SCOTUS, and Trump will discover there is already case law.....and lose.
Carpe Pices
 
BN747
Posts: 6418
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:44 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
I think the constant talk about Mueller's report plays better for Trump than it does for the Democrats at this point. I'll try to remember this post for November 2020.


Of course that's your take away from the issue at hand, in the mean time...
Fox News Legal Analyst Judge Andrew Napolitano is calling his take on the Mueller Report
"Unlawful and condemnable’: Fox News legal analyst says obstruction case against Trump is overwhelming"

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/04/unlawf ... rwhelming/

...can't stand Fox News & co, but I now know that when choosing to hear him out or take you seriously regarding this...well the obvious choice is Fox making more since than you.


But good luck on your roadside 'Nothing Burger' stand, how are the sales?

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
bhill
Posts: 1626
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:47 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
They didn't charge. We were told on many occasions to accept the findings of the Mueller report. I am. Who isn't now? You? It's time to govern. Imagine what can be done right now from a democrats perspective. Trump is anxious to make deals. He'd probably accept some stuff most republicans would be opposed to. But that's a compromise. Continue down the investigations and impeachment route and you're just going to guarantee another Trump win, and possibly handing the house back to republicans. Then you get nothing.



You did not read the report... nor have you been listening to ANYTHING about DoJ POLICY!!!! Muller COULD NOT CHARGE!!!!! THAT is the policy of the DoJ!!! That is why Muller punted it to Congress, which is the ONLY body that can address alleged malfeasance!! Go do a word search on the phrase "we would so state" in the report.
Carpe Pices
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 2550
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:35 pm

bhill wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
They didn't charge. We were told on many occasions to accept the findings of the Mueller report. I am. Who isn't now? You? It's time to govern. Imagine what can be done right now from a democrats perspective. Trump is anxious to make deals. He'd probably accept some stuff most republicans would be opposed to. But that's a compromise. Continue down the investigations and impeachment route and you're just going to guarantee another Trump win, and possibly handing the house back to republicans. Then you get nothing.



You did not read the report... nor have you been listening to ANYTHING about DoJ POLICY!!!! Muller COULD NOT CHARGE!!!!! THAT is the policy of the DoJ!!! That is why Muller punted it to Congress, which is the ONLY body that can address alleged malfeasance!! Go do a word search on the phrase "we would so state" in the report.


Mueller didn't punt anything to Congress. He just laid out what they found in the report. It's for the DOJ and the public to determine beyond that. Now yes, congress will take what they see in the report to continue their own investigations but by and large those in congress have already laid their battle lines and the Mueller report wouldn't have changed anyone's damned mind. Hell, don't have to look further than this forum to see that to be the case.
 
stratclub
Posts: 1241
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:06 pm

bhill wrote:
stratclub wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

The law couldn’t be more clear:

26 USC 6103 subpart (f)

(1) Committee on Ways and Means, Committee on Finance, and Joint Committee on Taxation
Upon written request from the chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means of the House of Representatives, the chairman of the Committee on Finance of the Senate, or the chairman of the Joint Committee on Taxation, the Secretary shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request, except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer shall be furnished to such committee only when sitting in closed executive session unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure.


No requirement to suggest a crime or anything of the sort - the Treasury Secretary shall furnish upon request by the Ways and Means committee chairman, period. Mnuchin has not complied, and is in violation of statute.


Well ya. If it wasn't for that pesky 4th Amendment, weaponizing the IRS would be a slam dunk. I did not see anything in the statute that said that Ways and Means have the power to suspend someones Constitutional Rights in regards to unreasonable search and seizure. In any case, they won't get his tax returns. So, keep reading and eventually you can probably figure out how his lawyer is going to shut this vindictive witch hunt down.

I think it's great that the Democrats keep pushing their despicable campaign of hate and harassment. All they are doing is handing Trump a landslide victory in 2020. Yup. I'm sure every time that the Democrats spew more vitriol, The President just laughs and remarks: "Those silly out of their minds Demos certainly are the gift that keeps on giving, and not in a bad way like an STD, but in a good way like Christmas or the Easter Bunny." :rotfl:


You must not have read the "UNREASONABLE" portion of that amendment's text. From the sworn testimony of Cohen, and the Committee's concern therein, this seems reasonable to most folks. Either way, it will most likely go the the District, then SCOTUS, and Trump will discover there is already case law.....and lose.

The Democrats harassing the President with yet another vindictive witch hunt after the criminal witch hunt to frame him for collusion failed certainly is criminal abuse of power and certainly unreasonable search and seizure if any of their bogus subpoenas are executed. And Cohen is really pissed because he gave them what they wanted and they still put him in prison. So most likely, the letter isn't worth the paper it was printed on.

Even Nancy Pelosi is starting to buckle under the enormous weight of of all of the hate and lies the Democrats have been spewing. I think she can see the light down the tunnel and wants to step back and start throwing people under the bus before the Democratic party completely caves in and starts eating their own entrails.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 9158
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:41 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
I think the constant talk about Mueller's report plays better for Trump than it does for the Democrats at this point. I'll try to remember this post for November 2020.


I’ll remember yours when survey after survey show American rankings are slipping in the world for science and critical thinking education.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
seb146
Posts: 19973
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:51 am

trpmb6 wrote:
bhill wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
They didn't charge. We were told on many occasions to accept the findings of the Mueller report. I am. Who isn't now? You? It's time to govern. Imagine what can be done right now from a democrats perspective. Trump is anxious to make deals. He'd probably accept some stuff most republicans would be opposed to. But that's a compromise. Continue down the investigations and impeachment route and you're just going to guarantee another Trump win, and possibly handing the house back to republicans. Then you get nothing.



You did not read the report... nor have you been listening to ANYTHING about DoJ POLICY!!!! Muller COULD NOT CHARGE!!!!! THAT is the policy of the DoJ!!! That is why Muller punted it to Congress, which is the ONLY body that can address alleged malfeasance!! Go do a word search on the phrase "we would so state" in the report.


Mueller didn't punt anything to Congress. He just laid out what they found in the report. It's for the DOJ and the public to determine beyond that. Now yes, congress will take what they see in the report to continue their own investigations but by and large those in congress have already laid their battle lines and the Mueller report wouldn't have changed anyone's damned mind. Hell, don't have to look further than this forum to see that to be the case.


Actually, Mueller DID hand this whole thing off to Congress.

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/ ... orate.html

It is now up to the House to investigate allegations Mueller suggested, to subpoena witnesses, subpoena documents in regards to the investigation, and allow the House to do it's job and investigate. Because Mueller was simply gathering information. "Here is what happened but I can not charge anyone".

Not that it matters because the occupant of the White House has told all his minions not to testify before the House and told various agencies not to comply with requests and subpoenas. Which would be obstruction, wouldn't it?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
MikeDrop
Posts: 447
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:21 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:31 am

bhill wrote:

You must not have read the "UNREASONABLE" portion of that amendment's text. From the sworn testimony of Cohen, and the Committee's concern therein, this seems reasonable to most folks.

You are banking on sworn testimony from Cohen? An admitted liar? This guy:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/michael-co ... ding_now_2

Denying to Tom Arnold on tape that he committed the crimes he plead guilty to? In federal court? This liar?

By the time Trump is done with the Dems on this "most people" will see this for what it is, a political vendetta to bring down the duly elected president.

Mike Drop
 
MikeDrop
Posts: 447
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:21 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:41 am

BN747 wrote:

You and trump lovers absolutely wish people would stoop discussing the incomplete Mueller Report and move the narrative in a different direction, ignoring of course, the heart of the matter...the Russian interference is a factual harm to nation vs FAT Donny not lifting a finger to address it.


This is a load of crap. Obama was the president who did nothing to stop any foreign interference in the 2016 election, not Trump. I know that Obama famously told Putin to "Cut it out" and Im sure that Putin went right back to his minions and told them that Obama said to cut it out. What a laffer. Of course Obama didn't tell Richard Steele from British intelligence to "cut it out" now did he. I wonder why not? Is it because Obama was a traitor or because he was incompetent? I'm going with incompetent traitor - THAT will be Obama's legacy.

Anyway, again you are incorrect, the heart of the matter is that the accusations of treasonous Russian collusion by Trump by you and many here was a made up fantasy. That is the subject that you don't want to discuss.

But by all means, keep on going on the Michael Cohen lies and made up obstruction of justice. Ride that all the way to November 2020. It'l be fun to watch.

Mike Drop
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 9158
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:45 am

MikeDrop wrote:
BN747 wrote:

You and trump lovers absolutely wish people would stoop discussing the incomplete Mueller Report and move the narrative in a different direction, ignoring of course, the heart of the matter...the Russian interference is a factual harm to nation vs FAT Donny not lifting a finger to address it.


This is a load of crap. Obama was the president who did nothing to stop any foreign interference in the 2016 election, not Trump. I know that Obama famously told Putin to "Cut it out" and Im sure that Putin went right back to his minions and told them that Obama said to cut it out. What a laffer. Of course Obama didn't tell Richard Steele from British intelligence to "cut it out" now did he. I wonder why not? Is it because Obama was a traitor or because he was incompetent? I'm going with incompetent traitor - THAT will be Obama's legacy.

Anyway, again you are incorrect, the heart of the matter is that the accusations of treasonous Russian collusion by Trump by you and many here was a made up fantasy. That is the subject that you don't want to discuss.

But by all means, keep on going on the Michael Cohen lies and made up obstruction of justice. Ride that all the way to November 2020. It'l be fun to watch.

Mike Drop


There just aren’t enough gif and meme reactions for this level of denial. You are conflating collusion fantasy with the reality that a badly managed campaign with a zany cast of characters reached out to Russians on many occasions, and because it might look bad, 45 and his team obstructed attempts to uncover these episodes of stupidity in full detail. He’s not man enough to say ‘I hired people who ended up doing unpatriotic things, and in the chaos of the campaign, failed to put a stop to their attempts to get dirt from Russia’ so instead we have this situation.

Judge Nap really couldn’t make things more clear here:

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/4406 ... -least?amp
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty

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