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seb146
Posts: 20675
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:46 pm

Since we have not seen the full Mueller report, I want to throw something out there:

This whole thing could have started off as a back channel loan. We all know what a terrible businessman the orange one is. The bar for collusion has to be pretty high. Mueller understands this. What if, as I said, this all started off as a back channel bank loan. The Russian government needed something in return.

It still bothers me that the occupant of the White House had secret meetings with Putin and the occupant of the White House has not released his tax returns. The secret meetings with Putin EVERY American should be outraged.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:52 pm

OK! TRP has chimed in and raises some interesting points . . . but still avoids to answer basic questions. :ill:

But since he is trying to discuss (although, again, preceding such discussion using juvenile rhetorical devices like FreequentFlier and Mike DROP), I find it absolutely necessary to respond to try to take his points a little further.

trpmb6 wrote:
I think at this point people should recognize that it's extremely hard to hide things in today's world.


Who said otherwise? This is commonly known as a "straw man."

trpmb6 wrote:
If Barr had nefarious intentions it meant that Rosenstein is a co-conspirator with him which is quite ridiculous considering what we know about the man.


Holy straw man! Who said anything about "nefarious intentions"? I believe the only thing that has been alluded to are "political intentions."

trpmb6 wrote:
And then we have the fact that if Barr misconstrued anything while presenting his summaries the truth would surely be leaked.


Leaked by whom? Rosenstein? A member of the Mueller team that purportedly hasn't leaked to this day? That sounds silly. What would they leak about? I have no doubt the half-sentence quoted in the report (let's call it our favorite poster's blankie since it keeps on coming up) came directly from the report. What would there be to leak?

trpmb6 wrote:
No, I'm subscribing to the idea that it's quite likely Mueller produced a summary letter that was prepped for public consumption and that Barr (or rather his staff) literally copied and pasted it.


Interesting theory, although not supported by anything in the public domain at this point. But that's OK! Everyone has their theories! (Including me!)

Question, though, if the report explicitly said "no evidence of collusion," which is what is being bandied about, why not quote that directly? What's with that wacky "did not establish" language? Do you think that the report will explain away all that "weird Russia stuff" (my term!) in the public domain? Or do you think it's possible it will document more "weird Russia stuff," yet also document the rationale for how such activity did not reach a threshold for prosecution? If it doesn't, I'd expect the report to be, as many have described it on here, a real NOTHINGBURGER when it comes to affecting public opinion. But that's my opinion (or, as you say, trp, "I subscribe to that theory" [now that's better language]). If my "theory" proves correct, well that'd be kind of sad that the "No Collusion Conclusion" being thrown around doesn't give the poor Prez any "bump."

As for the remainder of the report, viz the obstruction, do you read it as saying that the report will document things the Prez did, mostly in the public domain, but also some "new" stuff, (as a completely innocent person, of course) that constituted a body of evidence that probably could have been used against essentially anyone else to prosecute? Or is it a "nothing to see here" kind of thing? I'm curious! I subscribe to the former theory, which I can't imagine sitting well with a good part of Americans and may even go so far as to confirm what "gut reaction" (theories?) they have that the Prez is kind of a corrupt guy.

Good discussion!!!!
 
FreequentFlier
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:30 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:53 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:
1836Sam wrote:

Freequent, buddy, what exactly have I been "literally" "wrong" about? Do tell!


Precisely what I said. On the topic of collusion, everything.

Meanwhile, Glenn Greenwald noticed that a few of the collusion hucksters at MSNBC appear to have already moved on to Acceptance already.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ggreenwald/s ... igation%2F

Everyone moves at their own pace I guess.

It’s usless to engage with him/her/ze. Clearly this person is unconsciously experiencing a combination of multiple simultaneous psychological defense mechanisms. The more you engage the deeper you will push him/her/ze towards the abyss. Have some sympathy for this poster and just ignore him/her/ze. Until he/she/ze can come to terms with reality.

Mike Drop


Yup, and I still stand by contention that the exoneration might be the best thing that ever happened...for Democrats. Because no one outside a few crazy nut jobs really, genuinely, actually care about this stuff. Democrat voters didn’t even care about this stuff.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ler-report

“Real People Never Cared About the Mueller Report

Mueller’s conclusion that Trump didn’t collude with Russia to steal the 2016 election is an important victory for Trump, both legally and in the realm of cable news coverage. But it won’t necessarily have a big impact on the presidential race, and it’s not far-fetched to think Democrats worried about 2020 may be better off now that impeachment is realistically off the table.

One of the more disorienting aspects of the Trump era for a political reporter is the experience of moving between the television green room and the campaign trail. As anyone who’s watched cable news can wearily attest, even the most incremental developments on the subjects of Russia and Trump’s possible impeachment were given four-alarm, wall-to-wall treatment. If you’re the type of person who spends all day binging on MSNBC, CNN, or Fox News you might imagine that Mueller’s conclusion—or at least attorney general William Barr’s interpretation of it—greatly set back, if not outright destroyed, Democrats’ hopes of beating Trump in 2020.

But if you’ve spent any time interacting with voters across the country in the midterm elections and the early primary states, you’ve probably been struck, as I have, by the degree to which Mueller and Russia don’t even come up—like, ever.“


Worth reading the whole thing.
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:57 pm

FreequentFlier wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:

Precisely what I said. On the topic of collusion, everything.

Meanwhile, Glenn Greenwald noticed that a few of the collusion hucksters at MSNBC appear to have already moved on to Acceptance already.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ggreenwald/s ... igation%2F

Everyone moves at their own pace I guess.

It’s usless to engage with him/her/ze. Clearly this person is unconsciously experiencing a combination of multiple simultaneous psychological defense mechanisms. The more you engage the deeper you will push him/her/ze towards the abyss. Have some sympathy for this poster and just ignore him/her/ze. Until he/she/ze can come to terms with reality.

Mike Drop


Yup, and I still stand by contention that the exoneration might be the best thing that ever happened...for Democrats. Because no one outside a few crazy nut jobs really, genuinely, actually care about this stuff. Democrat voters didn’t even care about this stuff.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ler-report

“Real People Never Cared About the Mueller Report

Mueller’s conclusion that Trump didn’t collude with Russia to steal the 2016 election is an important victory for Trump, both legally and in the realm of cable news coverage. But it won’t necessarily have a big impact on the presidential race, and it’s not far-fetched to think Democrats worried about 2020 may be better off now that impeachment is realistically off the table.

One of the more disorienting aspects of the Trump era for a political reporter is the experience of moving between the television green room and the campaign trail. As anyone who’s watched cable news can wearily attest, even the most incremental developments on the subjects of Russia and Trump’s possible impeachment were given four-alarm, wall-to-wall treatment. If you’re the type of person who spends all day binging on MSNBC, CNN, or Fox News you might imagine that Mueller’s conclusion—or at least attorney general William Barr’s interpretation of it—greatly set back, if not outright destroyed, Democrats’ hopes of beating Trump in 2020.

But if you’ve spent any time interacting with voters across the country in the midterm elections and the early primary states, you’ve probably been struck, as I have, by the degree to which Mueller and Russia don’t even come up—like, ever.“


Worth reading the whole thing.


I think the purpose of discussion forums--at least if one wants to "add value", so to speak--is to express one's own opinion--perhaps using other sources, but not just to cut-copy-paste links as, quite honestly, you are very prone to do. Do you agree, FreequentFlier?

But at least you have posted some actual text and chosen to embolden it, which, if I connect the dots, echoes your own feelings (but how would one know for sure, really?).

I guess the implication then is we can't expect that "No Collusion Conclusion" "bump."
 
FreequentFlier
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:30 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:58 pm

seb146 wrote:
Magog wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Please share that exact quote along with the link to Mueller's report.

Here is what Mueller said:
"[T]he investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities."


Where? Show me the link. I need facts. I want to see those exact words from the Mueller report with my own eyes.

Or are you still insisting that what Barr said Mueller said is good enough?


So Barr and Rosenstein claim to be quoting directly from the report. Your contention is that they’re committing federal perjury and lying about what the report said in their letter to Congress.

And Mueller and the dozens of FBI agents who spent years on the case are just...perfectly ok with being misrepresented and federal perjury being committed, and are all just staying completely silent during all this.

You guys are legitimately nuts. I’m done engaging in this topic. Maybe do yourself a favor and stop getting your “news” from cranks like Rachel Maddow.
Last edited by FreequentFlier on Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
FreequentFlier
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:30 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:00 pm

1836Sam wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
It’s usless to engage with him/her/ze. Clearly this person is unconsciously experiencing a combination of multiple simultaneous psychological defense mechanisms. The more you engage the deeper you will push him/her/ze towards the abyss. Have some sympathy for this poster and just ignore him/her/ze. Until he/she/ze can come to terms with reality.

Mike Drop


Yup, and I still stand by contention that the exoneration might be the best thing that ever happened...for Democrats. Because no one outside a few crazy nut jobs really, genuinely, actually care about this stuff. Democrat voters didn’t even care about this stuff.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ler-report

“Real People Never Cared About the Mueller Report

Mueller’s conclusion that Trump didn’t collude with Russia to steal the 2016 election is an important victory for Trump, both legally and in the realm of cable news coverage. But it won’t necessarily have a big impact on the presidential race, and it’s not far-fetched to think Democrats worried about 2020 may be better off now that impeachment is realistically off the table.

One of the more disorienting aspects of the Trump era for a political reporter is the experience of moving between the television green room and the campaign trail. As anyone who’s watched cable news can wearily attest, even the most incremental developments on the subjects of Russia and Trump’s possible impeachment were given four-alarm, wall-to-wall treatment. If you’re the type of person who spends all day binging on MSNBC, CNN, or Fox News you might imagine that Mueller’s conclusion—or at least attorney general William Barr’s interpretation of it—greatly set back, if not outright destroyed, Democrats’ hopes of beating Trump in 2020.

But if you’ve spent any time interacting with voters across the country in the midterm elections and the early primary states, you’ve probably been struck, as I have, by the degree to which Mueller and Russia don’t even come up—like, ever.“


Worth reading the whole thing.


I think the purpose of discussion forums--at least if one wants to "add value", so to speak--is to express one's own opinion--perhaps using other sources, but not just to cut-copy-paste links as, quite honestly, you are very prone to do. Do you agree, FreequentFlier?

But at least you have posted some actual text and chosen to embolden it, which, if I connect the dots, echoes your own feelings (but how would one know for sure, really?).

I guess the implication then is we can't expect that "No Collusion Conclusion" "bump."


I think there will be a small bump - maybe 1 or 2 points - but the vast majority of voters don’t care about this topic, as the article I linked to demonstrated.
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:01 pm

FreequentFlier wrote:
1836Sam wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:

Yup, and I still stand by contention that the exoneration might be the best thing that ever happened...for Democrats. Because no one outside a few crazy nut jobs really, genuinely, actually care about this stuff. Democrat voters didn’t even care about this stuff.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ler-report

“Real People Never Cared About the Mueller Report

Mueller’s conclusion that Trump didn’t collude with Russia to steal the 2016 election is an important victory for Trump, both legally and in the realm of cable news coverage. But it won’t necessarily have a big impact on the presidential race, and it’s not far-fetched to think Democrats worried about 2020 may be better off now that impeachment is realistically off the table.

One of the more disorienting aspects of the Trump era for a political reporter is the experience of moving between the television green room and the campaign trail. As anyone who’s watched cable news can wearily attest, even the most incremental developments on the subjects of Russia and Trump’s possible impeachment were given four-alarm, wall-to-wall treatment. If you’re the type of person who spends all day binging on MSNBC, CNN, or Fox News you might imagine that Mueller’s conclusion—or at least attorney general William Barr’s interpretation of it—greatly set back, if not outright destroyed, Democrats’ hopes of beating Trump in 2020.

But if you’ve spent any time interacting with voters across the country in the midterm elections and the early primary states, you’ve probably been struck, as I have, by the degree to which Mueller and Russia don’t even come up—like, ever.“


Worth reading the whole thing.


I think the purpose of discussion forums--at least if one wants to "add value", so to speak--is to express one's own opinion--perhaps using other sources, but not just to cut-copy-paste links as, quite honestly, you are very prone to do. Do you agree, FreequentFlier?

But at least you have posted some actual text and chosen to embolden it, which, if I connect the dots, echoes your own feelings (but how would one know for sure, really?).

I guess the implication then is we can't expect that "No Collusion Conclusion" "bump."


I think there will be a small bump - maybe 1 or 2 points - but the vast majority of voters don’t care about this topic, as the article I linked to demonstrated.


OK, thanks for the clarification!
 
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seb146
Posts: 20675
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:05 pm

1836Sam wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
If Barr had nefarious intentions it meant that Rosenstein is a co-conspirator with him which is quite ridiculous considering what we know about the man.


Holy straw man! Who said anything about "nefarious intentions"? I believe the only thing that has been alluded to are "political intentions."


Barr was only very recently nominated and confirmed to be Attorney General. The primary job of Attorney General is to represent the best the best legal interests of We The People

https://www.justice.gov/jmd/organizatio ... ey-general

We The People already know that meetings with Russian government officials happened. How is this in the best interest of We The People to protect individual #1? If the Attorney General is working on our behalf, wouldn't it make sense to have a longer rebuttal to the report and let us see the original?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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seb146
Posts: 20675
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:09 pm

FreequentFlier wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Here is what Mueller said:
"[T]he investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities."


Where? Show me the link. I need facts. I want to see those exact words from the Mueller report with my own eyes.

Or are you still insisting that what Barr said Mueller said is good enough?


So Barr and Rosenstein claim to be quoting directly from the report. Your contention is that they’re committing federal perjury and lying about what the report said in their letter to Congress.

And Mueller and the dozens of FBI agents who spent years on the case are just...perfectly ok with being misrepresented and federal perjury being committed, and are all just staying completely silent during all this.

You guys are legitimately nuts. I’m done engaging in this topic. Maybe do yourself a favor and stop getting your “news” from cranks like Rachel Maddow.


So we are just supposed to believe a summary instead of wanting to see the original?

What is wrong with thinking for myself and asking questions? I guess it is better to believe a former MTV host and a former childhood actress than ask my own questions and think for myself.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:22 pm

FreequentFlier wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Here is what Mueller said:
"[T]he investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities."


Where? Show me the link. I need facts. I want to see those exact words from the Mueller report with my own eyes.

Or are you still insisting that what Barr said Mueller said is good enough?


So Barr and Rosenstein claim to be quoting directly from the report. Your contention is that they’re committing federal perjury and lying about what the report said in their letter to Congress.

And Mueller and the dozens of FBI agents who spent years on the case are just...perfectly ok with being misrepresented and federal perjury being committed, and are all just staying completely silent during all this.

You guys are legitimately nuts. I’m done engaging in this topic. Maybe do yourself a favor and stop getting your “news” from cranks like Rachel Maddow.


So, so needlessly attacky and not very nice to boot. I don't know why people are averse to a discussion. Very very sad in these divisive times.

First off, Freequent, it appears your logic follows a pattern of "selective literalism" that I have associated in the past with MAGOG. None of what is being discussed is mutually exclusive. As has been stated, the half-sentence quoted from the Mueller report could mean everything on the range from "no evidence whatsoever" to "holy sh*t, a bunch of evidence, but not enough to meet criminal standard of conspiracy." Can you see that? NO ONE on here is saying (and I'm not sure what has made you jump to this really serious conclusion) that the Mueller report actually found that they met the standard for conspiracy and Barr is covering it up. What on earth gave you that idea? (Has the above improved your understanding at all?) It's OK BTW a lot of people are wired to be more literal than others, with that wiring interfering with a more holistic understanding of the situation.

Then (while no one is saying this, BTW), when you write that Barr and Rosenstein would be committing federal perjury, well, I think you reveal you don't have a comprehensive understanding of the law (which sort of makes sense because you haven't really engaged on the legal questions and have relied instead upon calling people who disagree with you "nuts," "maniacs," etc. and insulting Rachel Maddow, with whom you seem to be obsessed). You can't commit perjury if you're not under oath. (Besides, no one is making such a contention, silly!) You can, however, betray the public trust (which, BTW, the Constitution considers "impeachable.")

I think everyone should take a deep breath and stop using such charged language. We're all Americans here! (At least I think so!)
Last edited by 1836Sam on Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:28 pm

seb146 wrote:

So we are just supposed to believe a summary instead of wanting to see the original?

What is wrong with thinking for myself and asking questions? I guess it is better to believe a former MTV host and a former childhood actress than ask my own questions and think for myself.

You can do both. You can presumptively believe the summary and await the full report. This is a logical way to proceed because the odds of Barr misquoting Mueller are about 0.1%.
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:30 pm

Magog wrote:
This is a logical way to proceed because the odds of Barr misquoting Mueller are about 0.1%.


MAGOG, work with me . . . who is saying that?

I think you are reading things that just aren't there. So let's take it to a deeper dimension . . .
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:33 pm

You know, back to what I was saying yesterday, I do think we shouldn't fault our friends on this board for jumping to the "No Collusion Conclusion" so quickly . . . including the NY Times and MSNBC (EGAD!!!!). I think a lot were victims of the media, who didn't take time to seriously think through the questions posed by the Barr letter. And thinking through those nuances does take a lot of time.

But hopefully as people have had more time to think through, like it seems the American public has, they'll see that there are still many, many unanswered questions and that it's entirely unlikely that the "weird Russia stuff" that's been in the public domain for over 2 years now won't be explained away.
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:34 pm

1836Sam wrote:
Then (while no one is saying this, BTW), when you write that Barr and Rosenstein would be committing federal perjury, well, I think you reveal you don't have a comprehensive understanding of the law (which sort of makes sense because you haven't really engaged on the legal questions and have relied instead upon calling people who disagree with you "nuts," "maniacs," etc. and insulting Rachel Maddow, with whom you seem to be obsessed). You can't commit perjury if you're not under oath.

While it may not technically be perjury, federal law makes it a crime to "knowingly and willfully" give "materially" false statements to Congress, even if unsworn. The penalty is up to five years in prison.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1001
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:36 pm

Magog wrote:
1836Sam wrote:
Then (while no one is saying this, BTW), when you write that Barr and Rosenstein would be committing federal perjury, well, I think you reveal you don't have a comprehensive understanding of the law (which sort of makes sense because you haven't really engaged on the legal questions and have relied instead upon calling people who disagree with you "nuts," "maniacs," etc. and insulting Rachel Maddow, with whom you seem to be obsessed). You can't commit perjury if you're not under oath.

While it may not technically be perjury, federal law makes it a crime to "knowingly and willfully" give "materially" false statements to Congress, even if unsworn. The penalty is up to five years in prison.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1001


That's great MAGOG!

Thanks for the response!

So please tell us who is saying that Barr "knowingly and willfully" gave "materially" false statements to Congress?
 
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trpmb6
Posts: 2712
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:46 pm

seb146 wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Where? Show me the link. I need facts. I want to see those exact words from the Mueller report with my own eyes.

Or are you still insisting that what Barr said Mueller said is good enough?


So Barr and Rosenstein claim to be quoting directly from the report. Your contention is that they’re committing federal perjury and lying about what the report said in their letter to Congress.

And Mueller and the dozens of FBI agents who spent years on the case are just...perfectly ok with being misrepresented and federal perjury being committed, and are all just staying completely silent during all this.

You guys are legitimately nuts. I’m done engaging in this topic. Maybe do yourself a favor and stop getting your “news” from cranks like Rachel Maddow.


So we are just supposed to believe a summary instead of wanting to see the original?

What is wrong with thinking for myself and asking questions? I guess it is better to believe a former MTV host and a former childhood actress than ask my own questions and think for myself.


Certainly nothing wrong with thinking for oneself and wanting to delve deeper. In fact, I know from your posts on this forum that you are quite good at doing so (I say this with the utmost respect).

I just want to caution that seeing the whole report is likely impossible due to the sources and methods portion. Which is why I suggested earlier that there are likely multiple parts that help summarize what was investigated. I believe we will see a fairly thorough report with many redactions. Are you ok with that? There are reasons we seal grand jury testimony. Would you be ok with someone releasing grand jury testimony in which you either testified or were being investigated - only to be found innocent? Part of the reason for sealing grand jury testimony is to give witnesses assurances that their testimony won't be heard by others so that they can be free to speak truthfully (think of the type of grand jury investigating a mafia for instance).

My contention is thus: First it was "We have to protect Mueller's investigation lest he be fired by Trump!" Now it's "We have to see the whole report!" What will satisfy after that? "They must have missed something! We know better than them!"

Will there be a point were satisfaction is achieved? Is a report with redactions, per what I said above, acceptable enough? Do we want to repeat the mistakes of the Starr report which was written in a manner that was not intended for public consumption?
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:47 pm

Here MAGOG & Co., we'll try one more time, multiple choice:

Do you believe that the Mueller Report, once released, will:

A) Completely vindicate the Prez of the "weird Russia stuff" that is in the public domain by explaining just what was going on (i.e., "complete and total exoneration," but this time for realsies, although it'd be weird that Barr excluded this . . . I'd say that'd be making a materially false statement!)

B) Reveal itself to be a hoax, i.e., "Dear Congress, SOHRRY!" (I guess that sorta goes with (A) . . . I know you have implied that before, MAGOG)

C) Will reveal not yet public information of other "weird Russia stuff" that doesn't meet the prosecutorial standard for conspiracy, but it doesn't matter because the standard in your opinion is it's only a problem if it's prosecuted (I've been calling this the "Jussie Standard")

Now if you disagree, please feel free to offer a (D) or even an (E)!

Now don't pay attention to this image . . . it can't be two!

Image
 
MikeDrop
Posts: 529
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:21 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:24 pm

FreequentFlier wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:

Precisely what I said. On the topic of collusion, everything.

Meanwhile, Glenn Greenwald noticed that a few of the collusion hucksters at MSNBC appear to have already moved on to Acceptance already.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ggreenwald/s ... igation%2F

Everyone moves at their own pace I guess.

It’s usless to engage with him/her/ze. Clearly this person is unconsciously experiencing a combination of multiple simultaneous psychological defense mechanisms. The more you engage the deeper you will push him/her/ze towards the abyss. Have some sympathy for this poster and just ignore him/her/ze. Until he/she/ze can come to terms with reality.

Mike Drop


Yup, and I still stand by contention that the exoneration might be the best thing that ever happened...for Democrats. Because no one outside a few crazy nut jobs really, genuinely, actually care about this stuff. Democrat voters didn’t even care about this stuff.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ler-report

“Real People Never Cared About the Mueller Report

Mueller’s conclusion that Trump didn’t collude with Russia to steal the 2016 election is an important victory for Trump, both legally and in the realm of cable news coverage. But it won’t necessarily have a big impact on the presidential race, and it’s not far-fetched to think Democrats worried about 2020 may be better off now that impeachment is realistically off the table.

One of the more disorienting aspects of the Trump era for a political reporter is the experience of moving between the television green room and the campaign trail. As anyone who’s watched cable news can wearily attest, even the most incremental developments on the subjects of Russia and Trump’s possible impeachment were given four-alarm, wall-to-wall treatment. If you’re the type of person who spends all day binging on MSNBC, CNN, or Fox News you might imagine that Mueller’s conclusion—or at least attorney general William Barr’s interpretation of it—greatly set back, if not outright destroyed, Democrats’ hopes of beating Trump in 2020.

But if you’ve spent any time interacting with voters across the country in the midterm elections and the early primary states, you’ve probably been struck, as I have, by the degree to which Mueller and Russia don’t even come up—like, ever.“


Worth reading the whole thing.

I get what you are saying, but the fact remains that the leadership of the Democratic Party and most of the media in this country have been falsely accusing the president of the United States of treason for purely political purposes. A crime that is punishable by death. This won’t just go away. There will be a reckoning.

Mike Drop
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:28 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
It’s usless to engage with him/her/ze. Clearly this person is unconsciously experiencing a combination of multiple simultaneous psychological defense mechanisms. The more you engage the deeper you will push him/her/ze towards the abyss. Have some sympathy for this poster and just ignore him/her/ze. Until he/she/ze can come to terms with reality.

Mike Drop


Yup, and I still stand by contention that the exoneration might be the best thing that ever happened...for Democrats. Because no one outside a few crazy nut jobs really, genuinely, actually care about this stuff. Democrat voters didn’t even care about this stuff.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ler-report

“Real People Never Cared About the Mueller Report

Mueller’s conclusion that Trump didn’t collude with Russia to steal the 2016 election is an important victory for Trump, both legally and in the realm of cable news coverage. But it won’t necessarily have a big impact on the presidential race, and it’s not far-fetched to think Democrats worried about 2020 may be better off now that impeachment is realistically off the table.

One of the more disorienting aspects of the Trump era for a political reporter is the experience of moving between the television green room and the campaign trail. As anyone who’s watched cable news can wearily attest, even the most incremental developments on the subjects of Russia and Trump’s possible impeachment were given four-alarm, wall-to-wall treatment. If you’re the type of person who spends all day binging on MSNBC, CNN, or Fox News you might imagine that Mueller’s conclusion—or at least attorney general William Barr’s interpretation of it—greatly set back, if not outright destroyed, Democrats’ hopes of beating Trump in 2020.

But if you’ve spent any time interacting with voters across the country in the midterm elections and the early primary states, you’ve probably been struck, as I have, by the degree to which Mueller and Russia don’t even come up—like, ever.“


Worth reading the whole thing.

I get what you are saying, but the fact remains that the leadership of the Democratic Party and most of the media in this country have been falsely accusing the president of the United States of treason for purely political purposes. A crime that is punishable by death. This won’t just go away. There will be a reckoning.

Mike Drop


Now that is very threatening and serious language without any facts, wouldn’t you say? “Most media”? “Treason”? I know someone who has been using the word “treason” a lot these days, Mike DROP, and that’s the Prez!

But regardless of what you and me think ... if the voters decide and there is no “bump,” where does that leave the Poor Prez? Or are you insinuating some legal “changes”? Very sinister! (Is that a shtick BTW because it sure comes across quite often in your posts.)
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:52 pm

Another suggestion to our friends (even the perennially "sinister" ones . . . hahahahahaha!) to promote discussion . . .

My favorite weekly podcast "All the President's Lawyers" was just released and the episode discusses the Barr letter. It's available here:

https://www.kcrw.com/news/shows/lrc-pre ... ts-lawyers

I find it to be very unbiased and only fact-based, with the usual political commentary (but not baseless partisan (ooooo, really had to bite my tongue there, almost used the throwaway turn-of-phrase "partisan hack" . . . it's like a reflex!) speculation).

FULL DISCLOSURE: It does discuss the real problem of trying to selectively parse carefully worded legal language and the potential perils of doing so (looking at you-know-who!). One of the co-hosts says that this was a "big loss for the Democrats." And there are plenty of Michael Avenatti jokes . . . so sassy!!

I guess I've been listening to it for so long I found myself agreeing with a lot of points . . . including some of the points that we've already tried discussing here, but have thus far have had only mixed results, with a lot of people getting very attacky and some people dropping out entirely (so, so sad!). I understand . . . this has got some of us agitated and on edge because a lot of us thought this was over.

It's a spinoff of this podcast, which I also find to be very balanced!

https://www.npr.org/podcasts/381444881/ ... ght-center

After listening to the podcast, what does everyone think? Let's discuss!!!
 
MikeDrop
Posts: 529
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:21 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:14 pm

Consequences are an everyday fact of life. The left has moved from slandering Trump in order to gain political advantage to slandering him in order to avoid the consequences of their behavior for the last 3 plus years.

It’s sickening and damaging to our country. The only other kind of person who would still be beating the dead horse of “Russia, Russia, Russia” are foriegn agents who want to weaken the US.

Mike Drop
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:24 pm

Image

Sheesh it seems to be so hard to get people to answer simple questions and have a simple discussion.

It seems to just result in silly partisan fingerpointing and implying that people with whom they disagree are foreign agents! I don't know how the rest of this discussion board feels but that sounds absolutely ridiculous to me! (I believe the colorful word the youth use frequently these days is "cray-cray.")

Image

In an effort to advance the discussion I'll try to answer for Mike DROP then and say he chooses (A)--maybe he thinks foreign agents were the ones who made the Prez do the "weird Russia stuff"?

A) Completely vindicate the Prez of the "weird Russia stuff" that is in the public domain by explaining just what was going on (i.e., "complete and total exoneration," but this time for realsies, although it'd be weird that Barr excluded this . . . I'd say that'd be making a materially false statement!)

OK, 1 for (A) then!
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:33 pm

OK! Another attempt to generate productive discussion!

Mike DROP, you mentioned earlier you are friends with a Democratic U.S. Congressman (woman)? (Nice to see people can find common ground outside of their own political party . . . I am, too, where I live! Seems to me that we could do that here, too!)

Have you had occasion to discuss with him/her the Barr letter?

And what was their perspective? Do they think, too, that people who speculate on the findings of Barr letter are secret agents?

Maybe I'm missing something that's staring me straight in the face . . .

If so, well, then, shucks!

Image
 
FreequentFlier
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:30 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:38 pm

1836Sam wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Where? Show me the link. I need facts. I want to see those exact words from the Mueller report with my own eyes.

Or are you still insisting that what Barr said Mueller said is good enough?


So Barr and Rosenstein claim to be quoting directly from the report. Your contention is that they’re committing federal perjury and lying about what the report said in their letter to Congress.

And Mueller and the dozens of FBI agents who spent years on the case are just...perfectly ok with being misrepresented and federal perjury being committed, and are all just staying completely silent during all this.

You guys are legitimately nuts. I’m done engaging in this topic. Maybe do yourself a favor and stop getting your “news” from cranks like Rachel Maddow.


So, so needlessly attacky and not very nice to boot. I don't know why people are averse to a discussion. Very very sad in these divisive times.

First off, Freequent, it appears your logic follows a pattern of "selective literalism" that I have associated in the past with MAGOG. None of what is being discussed is mutually exclusive. As has been stated, the half-sentence quoted from the Mueller report could mean everything on the range from "no evidence whatsoever" to "holy sh*t, a bunch of evidence, but not enough to meet criminal standard of conspiracy." Can you see that? NO ONE on here is saying (and I'm not sure what has made you jump to this really serious conclusion) that the Mueller report actually found that they met the standard for conspiracy and Barr is covering it up. What on earth gave you that idea? (Has the above improved your understanding at all?) It's OK BTW a lot of people are wired to be more literal than others, with that wiring interfering with a more holistic understanding of the situation.

Then (while no one is saying this, BTW), when you write that Barr and Rosenstein would be committing federal perjury, well, I think you reveal you don't have a comprehensive understanding of the law (which sort of makes sense because you haven't really engaged on the legal questions and have relied instead upon calling people who disagree with you "nuts," "maniacs," etc. and insulting Rachel Maddow, with whom you seem to be obsessed). You can't commit perjury if you're not under oath. (Besides, no one is making such a contention, silly!) You can, however, betray the public trust (which, BTW, the Constitution considers "impeachable.")

I think everyone should take a deep breath and stop using such charged language. We're all Americans here! (At least I think so!)


Statements made to Congress under official capacity are done so under penalty of perjury. If Barr and Rosenstein are lying and misrepresenting Mueller’s quotes, they could go to prison.
 
FreequentFlier
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:30 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:40 pm

1836Sam wrote:
Magog wrote:
1836Sam wrote:
Then (while no one is saying this, BTW), when you write that Barr and Rosenstein would be committing federal perjury, well, I think you reveal you don't have a comprehensive understanding of the law (which sort of makes sense because you haven't really engaged on the legal questions and have relied instead upon calling people who disagree with you "nuts," "maniacs," etc. and insulting Rachel Maddow, with whom you seem to be obsessed). You can't commit perjury if you're not under oath.

While it may not technically be perjury, federal law makes it a crime to "knowingly and willfully" give "materially" false statements to Congress, even if unsworn. The penalty is up to five years in prison.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1001


That's great MAGOG!

Thanks for the response!

So please tell us who is saying that Barr "knowingly and willfully" gave "materially" false statements to Congress?


You and seb are repeatedly throughout this thread.
 
FreequentFlier
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:30 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:42 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
It’s usless to engage with him/her/ze. Clearly this person is unconsciously experiencing a combination of multiple simultaneous psychological defense mechanisms. The more you engage the deeper you will push him/her/ze towards the abyss. Have some sympathy for this poster and just ignore him/her/ze. Until he/she/ze can come to terms with reality.

Mike Drop


Yup, and I still stand by contention that the exoneration might be the best thing that ever happened...for Democrats. Because no one outside a few crazy nut jobs really, genuinely, actually care about this stuff. Democrat voters didn’t even care about this stuff.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ler-report

“Real People Never Cared About the Mueller Report

Mueller’s conclusion that Trump didn’t collude with Russia to steal the 2016 election is an important victory for Trump, both legally and in the realm of cable news coverage. But it won’t necessarily have a big impact on the presidential race, and it’s not far-fetched to think Democrats worried about 2020 may be better off now that impeachment is realistically off the table.

One of the more disorienting aspects of the Trump era for a political reporter is the experience of moving between the television green room and the campaign trail. As anyone who’s watched cable news can wearily attest, even the most incremental developments on the subjects of Russia and Trump’s possible impeachment were given four-alarm, wall-to-wall treatment. If you’re the type of person who spends all day binging on MSNBC, CNN, or Fox News you might imagine that Mueller’s conclusion—or at least attorney general William Barr’s interpretation of it—greatly set back, if not outright destroyed, Democrats’ hopes of beating Trump in 2020.

But if you’ve spent any time interacting with voters across the country in the midterm elections and the early primary states, you’ve probably been struck, as I have, by the degree to which Mueller and Russia don’t even come up—like, ever.“


Worth reading the whole thing.

I get what you are saying, but the fact remains that the leadership of the Democratic Party and most of the media in this country have been falsely accusing the president of the United States of treason for purely political purposes. A crime that is punishable by death. This won’t just go away. There will be a reckoning.

Mike Drop


Oh there will certainly be a reckoning for the media. Their credibility is virtually non-existent at this point and deservedly so.
 
FreequentFlier
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:30 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:45 pm

Trump just demanded that Russia “get out” of Venezuela.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/27/us/p ... zuela.html

Is that “weird Russia stuff” or no?
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:49 pm

FreequentFlier wrote:
Trump just demanded that Russia “get out” of Venezuela.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/27/us/p ... zuela.html

Is that “weird Russia stuff” or no?


Well FreequentFlier, I'd say a quantitative approach would help us out. One typically measures things . . . you know like your weight. There's a big difference between 150 pounds and 500, wouldn't you agree?

And there might need to be weightings. In the context of, for example, wanting to get Russia back on the G7, whaddya think?

Have I said how happy am I to have you back!
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:55 pm

FreequentFlier wrote:
Trump just demanded that Russia “get out” of Venezuela.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/27/us/p ... zuela.html

Is that “weird Russia stuff” or no?


FreequentFlier, BTW, I neglected to tell you thanks for using my "weird Russia stuff" language . . . I do think it helps us not to talk past each other and therefore promotes discussion! :bigthumbsup:
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:04 pm

In an attempt to advance this discussion amongst pals, a couple of newsworthy things have happened today.

First off, a DoJ spokesperson says Mueller's report exceeds 300 pages. I guess four half sentences would make two complete sentences that we've seen at this point. Kind of "nuts," to borrow a word from our friends. I remember being in elementary school and learning how to write essays. A trick we were taught was to always have a thesis sentence in every paragraph and have at least 3 points to back it up, then state the thesis again as a conclusion. One of the ways the teacher would grade you would be as to how well the 3 points reinforced the conclusion. If they followed logically, well then, A+ . . . if there were some questions left unaddressed, well, then I don't remember getting an A. All I remember is one couldn't just turn in an essay with a conclusion! Now I'm sure we can all agree that'd be of no use to anyone!

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/28/us/p ... ength.html

I'll post the other news byte in another post because it's a long 'un!
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:09 pm

So Adam Schiff made a (my opinion) stirring speech today that touches on the "weird Russian stuff" (thanks again, FreequentFlier!). In it, he argues that Presidents of the United States should be held to a higher standard than "almost a criminal" (my words . . . sorry if they come across as provocative, but I'm just trying to summarize like AG Barr). I'm just an Average Joe but that kind of sounds right to me. Come to think of it, all leaders should be held to a higher standard and not just "squeak by"! In fact some may label the "squeaking by" as corrupt!

Sam says . . . "Your fellow Americans thank you, Adam Schiff, for being so calm and reasonable in the face of a lot of threats and bullying."

“My colleagues might think it’s OK that the Russians offered dirt on the Democratic candidate for president as part of what’s described as the Russian government’s effort to help the Trump campaign. You might think that’s OK.

“My colleagues might think it’s OK that when that was offered to the son of the president, who had a pivotal role in the campaign, that the president’s son did not call the FBI; he did not adamantly refuse that foreign help – no, instead that son said that he would ‘love’ the help with the Russians.

“You might think it’s OK that he took that meeting. You might think it’s OK that Paul Manafort, the campaign chair, someone with great experience running campaigns, also took that meeting. You might think it’s OK that the president’s son-in-law also took that meeting. You might think it’s OK that they concealed it from the public. You might think it’s OK that their only disappointment after that meeting was that the dirt they received on Hillary Clinton wasn’t better. You might think that’s OK.

“You might think it’s OK that when it was discovered, a year later, that they then lied about that meeting and said that it was about adoptions. You might think that it’s OK that it was reported that the president helped dictate that lie. You might think that’s OK. I don’t.

“You might think it’s OK that the campaign chairman of a presidential campaign would offer information about that campaign to a Russian oligarch in exchange for money or debt forgiveness. You might think that’s OK, I don’t.

“You might think it’s OK that that campaign chairman offered polling data to someone linked to Russian intelligence. I don’t think that’s OK.

“You might think it’s OK that the president himself called on Russia to hack his opponent’s emails, if they were listening. You might think it’s OK that later that day, in fact, the Russians attempted to hack a server affiliated with that campaign. I don’t think that’s OK.

“You might think it’s OK that the president’s son-in-law sought to establish a secret back channel of communication with the Russians through a Russian diplomatic facility. I don’t think that’s OK.

“You might think it’s OK that an associate of the president made direct contact with the GRU through Guccifer 2.0 and WikiLeaks, that is considered a hostile intelligence agency. You might think it’s OK that a senior campaign official was instructed to reach that associate and find out what that hostile intelligence agency had to say in terms of dirt on his opponent.

“You might think it’s OK that the national security adviser designate secretly conferred with the Russian ambassador about undermining U.S. sanctions, and you might think it’s OK that he lied about it to the FBI.

“You might say that’s all OK, that’s just what you need to do to win. But I don’t think it’s OK. I don’t think it’s OK. I think it’s immoral, I think it’s unethical, I think it’s unpatriotic and, yes, I think it’s corrupt – and evidence of collusion.”

“Now I have always said that the question of whether this amounts to proof of conspiracy was another matter. Whether the special counsel could prove beyond a reasonable doubt the proof of that crime would be up to the special counsel, and I would accept his decision, and I do. He’s a good and honorable man, and he is a good prosecutor.

“But I do not think that conduct, criminal or not, is OK. And the day we do think that’s OK is the day we will look back and say that is the day that America lost its way.”

“And I will tell you one more thing that is apropos of the hearing today: I don’t think it’s OK that during a presidential campaign Mr. Trump sought the Kremlin’s help to consummate a real estate deal in Moscow that would make him a fortune – according to the special counsel, hundreds of millions of dollars. I don’t think it’s OK to conceal it from the public. I don’t think it’s OK that he advocated a new and more favorable policy towards the Russians even as he was seeking the Russians’ help, the Kremlin’s help to make money. I don’t think it’s OK that his attorney lied to our committee. There is a different word for that than collusion, and it’s called ‘compromise.’


Image
 
1836Sam
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Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:11 pm

Indulge me for a second here, friends, but that flashback I had to my English classes also reminded me of that one time I got a D for reading Cliff Notes instead of the book!

Oh the lessons of life . . .

Image
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
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Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:57 pm

FreequentFlier wrote:
1836Sam wrote:
So please tell us who is saying that Barr "knowingly and willfully" gave "materially" false statements to Congress?


You and seb are repeatedly throughout this thread.


Well I asked for clarification and didn't get any from either MAGOG or our newly-returned friend (FreequentFlierFriend, now that has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?), so I guess we can finally put this to bed (that's a metaphor!).

No one was saying that AG Barr's memo contained materially false statements.

WHEW!!!!!

Image
 
User avatar
WarRI1
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Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:26 pm

1836Sam wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:
1836Sam wrote:
So please tell us who is saying that Barr "knowingly and willfully" gave "materially" false statements to Congress?


You and seb are repeatedly throughout this thread.


Well I asked for clarification and didn't get any from either MAGOG or our newly-returned friend (FreequentFlierFriend, now that has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?), so I guess we can finally put this to bed (that's a metaphor!).

No one was saying that AG Barr's memo contained materially false statements.

WHEW!!!!!

Image



I thought Adam Schiff hit the nail on the head, and spoke the truth to hypocrisy , of course hypocrisy outclasses the truth in the Conservative world by a mile.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
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Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:15 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
1836Sam wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:

You and seb are repeatedly throughout this thread.


Well I asked for clarification and didn't get any from either MAGOG or our newly-returned friend (FreequentFlierFriend, now that has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?), so I guess we can finally put this to bed (that's a metaphor!).

No one was saying that AG Barr's memo contained materially false statements.

WHEW!!!!!

Image



I thought Adam Schiff hit the nail on the head, and spoke the truth to hypocrisy , of course hypocrisy outclasses the truth in the Conservative world by a mile.


You know what WarRI1, I agree. There was a lot of backlash early on . . . in fact many of our friends on here warning against how the Democrats should abandon the issue or get annihilated (or some really aggressive language like that). Poor Congressman Schiff was targeted directly by the Prez for being a "traitor," and the administration sent a "no-fly list" to media institutions to tell them to not let him "board."

But Congressman Schiff stood tough amidst the initial "gut" reactions and said, "Let reason win the day! Let's wait for the full report! And, BTW, we've already seen a lot with our own eyes! And it's just not good enough for the country! We should hold ourselves to a higher standard!"

I have a feeling the Americans who are paying attention are saying, "Thank you, sir. What a CLASS ACT!" I’m confident our friends will agree soon too!

Image
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
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Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:57 pm

Well we've talked a lot about polls . . . I know MAGOG made a point--and he may be right!--that people haven't had time to digest the Barr Letter yet.

The Post just released this opinion poll. It looks like we still don't have closure. Does anyone think the public still needs time to process the Barr Letter? MAGOG?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... 82d0540abf

Image

So much whiplash on Sunday and probably a lot of hasty conclusions fed by that unreliable media. I know some here thought it was "over." I guess that was one of those "hasty conclusions."

As a famous American Idol contestant once said . . .

Image
 
BN747
Posts: 6739
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:23 pm

trump:'The Russians would have preferred Hillary far more than me, you know that!"

vs reporter at Helsinki Summit 2018 - Mr. Putin did you prefer Mr. trump over Mrs. Clinton in the election and did you instruct your officials to assist in that?

Putin:" (pause) ... yes, yes I did prefer Mr. trump because we could work together blah, blah, blah.

...who do you believe?

Who is the LIAR?


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
User avatar
seb146
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Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:57 am

trpmb6 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:

So Barr and Rosenstein claim to be quoting directly from the report. Your contention is that they’re committing federal perjury and lying about what the report said in their letter to Congress.

And Mueller and the dozens of FBI agents who spent years on the case are just...perfectly ok with being misrepresented and federal perjury being committed, and are all just staying completely silent during all this.

You guys are legitimately nuts. I’m done engaging in this topic. Maybe do yourself a favor and stop getting your “news” from cranks like Rachel Maddow.


So we are just supposed to believe a summary instead of wanting to see the original?

What is wrong with thinking for myself and asking questions? I guess it is better to believe a former MTV host and a former childhood actress than ask my own questions and think for myself.


Certainly nothing wrong with thinking for oneself and wanting to delve deeper. In fact, I know from your posts on this forum that you are quite good at doing so (I say this with the utmost respect).

I just want to caution that seeing the whole report is likely impossible due to the sources and methods portion. Which is why I suggested earlier that there are likely multiple parts that help summarize what was investigated. I believe we will see a fairly thorough report with many redactions. Are you ok with that? There are reasons we seal grand jury testimony. Would you be ok with someone releasing grand jury testimony in which you either testified or were being investigated - only to be found innocent? Part of the reason for sealing grand jury testimony is to give witnesses assurances that their testimony won't be heard by others so that they can be free to speak truthfully (think of the type of grand jury investigating a mafia for instance).

My contention is thus: First it was "We have to protect Mueller's investigation lest he be fired by Trump!" Now it's "We have to see the whole report!" What will satisfy after that? "They must have missed something! We know better than them!"

Will there be a point were satisfaction is achieved? Is a report with redactions, per what I said above, acceptable enough? Do we want to repeat the mistakes of the Starr report which was written in a manner that was not intended for public consumption?


I accept the fact that there are parts of Mueller's report that will be redacted if it is released for public consumption. Mueller will not hand down any more indictments, either. I am not happy about that but it is the truth.

We know there were meetings with Russians and the reason for those meetings is still not known. We know Russians gave money to NRA which gave money to Team MAGA. We know indictments by Mueller have resulted in several convictions. I would like Mueller's full report be released so we can see the words that came before “[T]he investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.”

I learned something interesting that I had not thought about. And I learned it from Rachel Maddow. When a sentence starts with a bracketed letter, that means that is part of a longer sentence. What comes before that [T]he?

The bar to indict, convict, and impeach a sitting president is pretty high. There are going to be those who will never ever believe the current occupant of the White House is a criminal or has ever worked with Russia on any level.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
MikeDrop
Posts: 529
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Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:41 am

More fallout from the Mueller investigation...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/28/politics ... index.html

"Federal prosecutors are close to bringing charges against Greg Craig, a prominent Democratic lawyer and former White House counsel in the Obama administration, in a case that originated with special counsel Robert Mueller, according to people familiar with the matter."

Consequences for Obama's White House counsel. Hopefully more to come!

Mike Drop
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:51 am

MikeDrop wrote:
More fallout from the Mueller investigation...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/28/politics ... index.html

"Federal prosecutors are close to bringing charges against Greg Craig, a prominent Democratic lawyer and former White House counsel in the Obama administration, in a case that originated with special counsel Robert Mueller, according to people familiar with the matter."

Consequences for Obama's White House counsel. Hopefully more to come!

Mike Drop


Mike DROP you seem to be taking FreequentFlier(Friend, of course) tack of posting links to things without giving any context or commentary instead of engaging in a discussion. That leaves poor li’l old me to parse things.

So the “fallout” from the Mueller Report is an indictment of an Obama lawyer comes across as quite loaded and, if I can use a strong word, rather disingenuous. Smarmy even, I’d say, because you’re going for association and your hope that people don’t read. (And it’s not “fallout” from the report, rather “fallout” from the investigation ... Wouldn’t you say?)

Greg Craig (unfortunate name) was a White House Counsel and is being indicted due to activities having occurred long after his time in the Obama administration. But, yes, it’s great that the “witch hunt” “hoax” of an investigation has yielded more fruit. Glad you’re on board now!

P.S. Mike DROP did you see the question I asked about your Democratic congressman/woman/ze (Someone used that last term before ... I’m not sure what it means but I’ll try to be hip!)? I’d love to have a real discussion!
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 20675
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Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:56 am

MikeDrop wrote:
More fallout from the Mueller investigation...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/28/politics ... index.html

"Federal prosecutors are close to bringing charges against Greg Craig, a prominent Democratic lawyer and former White House counsel in the Obama administration, in a case that originated with special counsel Robert Mueller, according to people familiar with the matter."

Consequences for Obama's White House counsel. Hopefully more to come!

Mike Drop


What was Craig charged with? From what I have seen, he failed to register as a foreign agent. One of the charges against Paul Manafort.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:02 am

Great questions, seb! Hopefully our friend Mike DROP will answer so we can get an insight into his train of thought! I’m sure there’s something there there. I mean, Mike DROP is a longtime, respected member of this forum, as we can all agree upon.

I have been having flashbacks to elementary school today as I have “journalized” on here (how embarrassing to share such personal memories with so many, but I do feel amongst friends, that this is a safe space, and we all care about America). I remember being told, “Sam, you’re a smart kid, and you’re also very strong in your ways, you must remember other people aren’t like you, so you always need to be very clear in what you’re saying ... otherwise people may misunderstand you and that would just be silly, right?”

So I, like you seb, am taken a bit aback by our friends Mike DROP and FreequentFlierFriend who throw about links with the implication that means something without engaging in any sort of discussion.

I’m from the South (here I go with my journal again), and I come from a long line of conservative people, but (now pardon me before I say this), my grandfather would say “Beware a man who wants to swing his [male member, rhymes with stick], he only wants to get in a [forgive me again, sheesh! So embarrassed!] p*ssing contest [rhymes with kissing].”

And my grandfather said, “The only way you can win that silly contest is to p*ss [kiss again] farther and put his fire out. He’ll try to push and push and push farther again, but he’ll have let out his tank in the first 5 seconds.”

And I think I now understand what he meant!
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:11 am

Magog wrote:
1836Sam wrote:
Well like MAGOG, MikeDrop, FreequentFlier, EA CO AS, P1aneMad, I, too, have been worried about the fallout from the apparent "No Collusion Conclusion."

Doesn't look like it has made even a significant blip thus far. Who would've guessed?! Certainly not I.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epoll ... -6179.html

There is only one poll on that list that was taken entirely after the conclusions were disclosed. It shows a small increase in approval since the prior poll. The poll was conducted on Monday and Tuesday.

As New York Magazine said so well, voters have had only 48 hours to process William Barr’s letter, and news can take time to enter the general public’s consciousness.

I do not know what the ultimate polling impact will be, but I do know that a single poll taken within hours of the release of the Barr letter is not the basis to draw any meaningful conclusions.


OK MAGOG, I know you don’t like answering questions. Maybe I’ve just asked too many!

But to your point above ... do you think that the “news” has “enter[ed] the general public’s consciousness?”

Do we need another week?
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:15 am

1836Sam wrote:
Magog wrote:
EstherLouise wrote:
I'm way late to this 3-ring circus of a topic, but there will always be doubt in many Americans' minds as long as the complete, UNREDACTED report stays out of their hands. There will always be doubt as to whether Barr is being fully open. And Trump, well, will always be doubted for being such an disdecoric putz.

I’m confident that the full report will be released.


MAGOG, oh well, nevermind . . . I'll give you a chance to sleep on what you learned.

But, heads up, be prepared tomorrow!

SUBSTANTIVE DISCUSSION QUESTION 1

In re your favorite incomplete sentence from the Mueller report, as quoted in the Barr letter, do you agree or disagree with this assessment?

"did not establish" could mean anything from no evidence whatsoever (good for Prez!) to a lot of evidence but not enough to meet the bar (Barr?) for criminal conviction (not so good for Prez, especially if it's a nice curated list!)

If not, on what basis do you disagree?


I really want to have a 2-way conversation, MAGOG. Isn't that what this discussion forum is for? Otherwise, a lot of these posts seem rather, er, repetitive and not adding anything new (like your confidence that the full report will be released . . . we've been hearing that for awhile now).

Let's start tomorrow!


Another nudge to my friend MAGOG!

Let’s start a discussion!
 
jcancel
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:15 am

The importance of holding discussions is why echo chamberism is wrong. Twitter, Facebook, Reddit need to be proactive in undoing user blocks that impede discussions.
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:30 pm

Hear, hear jcancel!

I’m beginning to think this really isn’t a discussion forum.

I (and others) have asked pretty simple questions and have gotten zero responses.

I’ve gotten a lot of mean things about Rachel Maddow, accusations of being a secret agent, Obama guy is guilty too, and strongly worded comments about “hoaxes,” being “nuts,” “maniacs,” or “traitors.” (Much in a needlessly aggressive, threatening, bullying tone, mind you ... but surely they don’t mean that!)

I say, if you’re mind is already made up ... that’s OK! Nothing wrong with that! That’s part of the human condition. When it comes to politics, it often means the decision is made on a partisan basis and that’s just sad! TRP, for one, challenged us to do better for the country! (Kind of in a strange way, he pointed 100% at Democrats for the responsibility, but that had to be a joke! Otherwise his comment would just be ridiculously silly!)

As my grandfather warned, people should be careful not to fall victim to another dangerous part of the human condition, ie, self deception, in which you confuse having your mind rigidly made up as having any sort of logical reinforcement. My grandfather said, “If I ever act like that, you’ll know for sure I’ve become a real GRUMPY OLD MAN!” Hahahahahahahahaha ... my grandfather was so funny and, in retrospect, so wise!

After this experience, I am going to be looking at the posts of some of our friends a little more closely and I don’t think their (on the surface) strong opinions will carry as much weight with me anymore. I don’t know about you but for me the test should be people should be able to logically defend their positions without resorting to personal attacks. Maybe I’m wrong on this ...

I guess this has been a good experience for that ...
Last edited by 1836Sam on Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9395
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:37 pm

Image

And this is how you have a "discussion" nowadays....

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:38 pm

I think the Attorney General of the United States is waiting because he is attempting to decide if he is just going to release it, or if he is going to use it as evidence when he refers charges against those who conspired to steal Presidential election.

If I were him, I would hold it for several months, thereby helping the democrats continue to implode chasing a paper tiger

If only Jeff Sessions had never recused himself, this whole silly episode could have been avoided. As it is, the House and the 2020 election have been handed to the Republicans.
 
1836Sam
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:23 pm

SteelChair wrote:
I think the Attorney General of the United States is waiting because he is attempting to decide if he is just going to release it, or if he is going to use it as evidence when he refers charges against those who conspired to steal Presidential election.

If I were him, I would hold it for several months, thereby helping the democrats continue to implode chasing a paper tiger

If only Jeff Sessions had never recused himself, this whole silly episode could have been avoided. As it is, the House and the 2020 election have been handed to the Republicans.


Hey there's a theory, and what a humdinger! You have added a "D" to my multiple choice question. Thanks SteelChair!

Anyone else want to choose "D"?

Do you believe that the Mueller Report, once released, will:

A) Completely vindicate the Prez of the "weird Russia stuff" that is in the public domain by explaining just what was going on (i.e., "complete and total exoneration," but this time for realsies, although it'd be weird that Barr excluded this . . . I'd say that'd be making a materially false statement!)

B) Reveal itself to be a hoax, i.e., "Dear Congress, SOHRRY!" (I guess that sorta goes with (A) . . . I know you have implied that before, MAGOG)

C) Will reveal not yet public information of other "weird Russia stuff" that doesn't meet the prosecutorial standard for conspiracy, but it doesn't matter because the standard in your opinion is it's only a problem if it's prosecuted (I've been calling this the "Jussie Standard")

D) Mueller wrote a report implicating his investigation as a complete hoax, the AG is sitting on it and will release at the most politically opportune moment


Wait, that's kind of (B)!

Image
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Mueller's Investigation/Report Complete!

Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:31 pm

1836Sam wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I think the Attorney General of the United States is waiting because he is attempting to decide if he is just going to release it, or if he is going to use it as evidence when he refers charges against those who conspired to steal Presidential election.

If I were him, I would hold it for several months, thereby helping the democrats continue to implode chasing a paper tiger

If only Jeff Sessions had never recused himself, this whole silly episode could have been avoided. As it is, the House and the 2020 election have been handed to the Republicans.


Hey there's a theory, and what a humdinger! You have added a "D" to my multiple choice question. Thanks SteelChair!

Anyone else want to choose "D"?

Do you believe that the Mueller Report, once released, will:

A) Completely vindicate the Prez of the "weird Russia stuff" that is in the public domain by explaining just what was going on (i.e., "complete and total exoneration," but this time for realsies, although it'd be weird that Barr excluded this . . . I'd say that'd be making a materially false statement!)

B) Reveal itself to be a hoax, i.e., "Dear Congress, SOHRRY!" (I guess that sorta goes with (A) . . . I know you have implied that before, MAGOG)

C) Will reveal not yet public information of other "weird Russia stuff" that doesn't meet the prosecutorial standard for conspiracy, but it doesn't matter because the standard in your opinion is it's only a problem if it's prosecuted (I've been calling this the "Jussie Standard")

D) Mueller wrote a report implicating his investigation as a complete hoax, the AG is sitting on it and will release at the most politically opportune moment


Wait, that's kind of (B)!

Image


There was no obstruction. (Hurts doesnt it?l

Thr FISA warrant was based upon the (discredited) Steele dossier, which was a piece of opposition research funded by the Clinoin campaign. The Steele dossier was then promulgated as an actual intelligence product by Brennan and McCain.

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