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RyanairGuru
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:56 pm

I'm glad I'm not the only one struck by that irony.

We have heard over and over that "Parliament is sovereign" and how necessary it was to restore power from Brussels to Parliament.

For the first time in a very long time the Commons is flexing its sovereignty, but now the Leavers are up in arms because they don't like the sovereign decisions that Parliament is making.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:57 pm

I'm glad I'm not the only one struck by that irony.

We have heard over and over that "Parliament is sovereign" and how necessary it was to restore power from Brussels to Parliament.

For the first time in a very long time the Commons is flexing its sovereignty, but now the Leavers are up in arms because they don't like the sovereign decisions that Parliament is making.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
A3801000
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:10 pm

Like it or not, but there wont be no Brexit on Friday. EU Ministers just had a meeting, not interested in such a outcome so it will be another kind of extension. Have fun, UK.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:31 pm

A3801000 wrote:
Like it or not, but there wont be no Brexit on Friday. EU Ministers just had a meeting, not interested in such a outcome so it will be another kind of extension. Have fun, UK.


If we have to enter these ridiculous EU elections, we’ll just have a larger UKIP share.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... earthquake

If we do have an extension, maybe the UK can help bring down the EU from inside.

Eurosceptics of Europe need to unite.
 
A3801000
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:35 pm

Why would you want to bring down the EU? I thought only Putin wants that? Well, and of course the people working in the russian 'Internet Research Agency' who are paid to troll international forums in support of a (hard) Brexit?.
 
bennett123
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Excellent idea.

Then the US and China can pick us off one at a time.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:05 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Excellent idea.

Then the US and China can pick us off one at a time.


Cue the hysteria
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:21 pm

A3801000 wrote:
Why would you want to bring down the EU?


Because the Brexiteers have clearly shown (by their own admissions in these threads) that they don't care about anyone else or who they throw under a bus, as long as they get their own extremist way. It's quite sad and desperate.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
A3801000
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:25 pm

scbriml wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
Why would you want to bring down the EU?


Because the Brexiteers have clearly shown (by their own admissions in these threads) that they don't care about anyone else or who they throw under a bus, as long as they get their own extremist way. It's quite sad and desperate.


None of the forum members here who support Brexit seem to care about the British people at all, that's what makes me wonder.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:37 pm

scbriml wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
Why would you want to bring down the EU?


Because the Brexiteers have clearly shown (by their own admissions in these threads) that they don't care about anyone else or who they throw under a bus, as long as they get their own extremist way. It's quite sad and desperate.


I am quite sad and desperate?

Pathetic
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:50 pm

scbriml wrote:

Because the Brexiteers have clearly shown (by their own admissions in these threads) that they don't care about anyone else or who they throw under a bus, as long as they get their own extremist way. It's quite sad and desperate.


And the hysteria continues from remain camp

leavers are not trying to overturn the result, from my position TM made a WA the was not acceptable to parliament, & parliament cannot find an acceptable position not that it would matter as the EU will not budge on theirs (TM dug that hole). That leaves 2 choices that are really simple, and its the same simple choice that was part of the referenda leave or remain . I'm very disappointed that the EU is contemplating granting the extension as no one can forward plan

All I want is a decision to either LEAVE or Remain by the 12th that is my position. A no deal exist or revoke A50 the only clear choices parliament has.

No one in parliament wants to make the decision as they know what ever decision they make is going to be felt at the next GE respect the referenda choice or not
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:10 pm

Read my words: The UK will swallow the WA one way or another, gently or painfully :P
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:20 pm

A101 wrote:
All I want is a decision to either LEAVE or Remain by the 12th that is my position.


I fear you will be very disappointed.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:32 pm

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
All I want is a decision to either LEAVE or Remain by the 12th that is my position.


I fear you will be very disappointed.



I’m not hopeful either
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:37 pm

Olddog wrote:
Read my words: The UK will swallow the WA one way or another, gently or painfully :P


Sure. It is a very reasonable proposition. I heard from a friend of mine whom is a civil servant, that indeed the first thing the EU will say to the UK if they come for a trade agrement with a hard Brexit - yes the EU prepares for this scenario -, sure we'll talk but first settle these three items. So it doesn't matter if it will be ratified by the house of commons or not, it will.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:40 pm

scbriml wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
Why would you want to bring down the EU?


Because the Brexiteers have clearly shown (by their own admissions in these threads) that they don't care about anyone else or who they throw under a bus, as long as they get their own extremist way. It's quite sad and desperate.


It's dogmatic and thus extremist. Dogmatic is never the way forward.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:27 pm

Olddog wrote:
Read my words: The UK will swallow the WA one way or another, gently or painfully :P

Or revoke.

That's the same since WA is written down. Nothing new.

I was unsure not so long ago. Before march 29th actually, but now... One extention requested, than another one . EU will likely accept again and give a longer but it's fair to remind it is just because UK just can't make up its mind on an offer that didn't change for months ! We know "a couple of months" more aren't actually enough anyway , but are trapped in this histeria we can only witness until "UK" decide!!

Simple :
Don't swallow the WA and revoke. Fine. Humble pie, revoke and move on.
Don't swallow the WA and leave WTO. mouahahahahah. Please. No one believe this anymore.
Take the stupid WA, fine, and move on. Let's see where next negociation during the next 10y brings us.

IMO, No deal is dead and for the WA it's now or never, if WA is not ratified soon the Brexit will be over.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
zhiao
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:40 pm

Just let them leave! Is the EU this weak? Cut them off and have them reapply if with conditions in 5 years. These extensions are ridiculous. If I were an EU citizen I would be pissed that we would be giving this issue so much attention
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:27 am

zhiao wrote:
Just let them leave! Is the EU this weak? Cut them off and have them reapply if with conditions in 5 years. These extensions are ridiculous. If I were an EU citizen I would be pissed that we would be giving this issue so much attention



The mainstream leave voters want that, but alas the politicians don’t want that.

And yes I’m still an EU citizen and I’m pissed of at the extension’s, I’m sick of hearing about it.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:05 am

zhiao wrote:
Just let them leave!

The EU can only do two things: Either extend or not. The UK has asked for an extension. Whatever happens it should be entirely a UK decision, not something which directly or indirectly has been pressed upon the UK by the EU.

zhiao wrote:
Is the EU this weak?

It is not a question about strong or weak. The EU is a rules based organization. Either you are a member or not. If not, you may have an agreement which complies with EU rules. There has been much talk about "negotiations" going on during the last few years. There were no real negotiations. Mr. Barnier and his team has helped the UK to combine possible agreements. At some summits he was given fifteen minutes to explain any progress, and then 27 PMs have tapped him on his shoulder and said "please continue the good work". But that phase i over now.

zhiao wrote:
Cut them off and have them reapply if with conditions in 5 years. These extensions are ridiculous.

Nah, the EU isn't something which you jump in and out of every other decade depending on the split of the mood in your country.

zhiao wrote:
If I were an EU citizen I would be pissed that we would be giving this issue so much attention

I am an EU citizen. I am not pissed. And I know no fellow citizens who are. Brexit is to a large extent treated like sort of "entertainment". In the closest UK neighbors Holland, Belgium, France, it may be more than just entertainment, I don't know, but EU27 is a lot more than those three countries.

Not pissed. Just shaking heads because a once great country decided 25 years ago to let some Australian media mongul destroy the country with lies. The only really sad thing is that UK has become such a split country down the middle, and their leaderhip is in total chaos.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:41 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Excellent idea.

Then the US and China can pick us off one at a time.


Cue the hysteria

Hmm... so you really think that you, of all people, have any standing to talk about hysteria here...! :rotfl:
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:44 am

A101 wrote:
There were no ifs, buts, qualifications, or conditions.

There was actually a rather substantial qualification: "This referendum is advisory only, not decisive!"

(Which, incidentally, is the only reason why its result wasn't summarily nullified after criminal conduct by the Leave campaign was uncovered, which would have been mandatory otherwise!)
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:21 am

Klaus wrote:
There was actually a rather substantial qualification: "This referendum is advisory only, not decisive!"



Remember this from the Prime Minister David Cameron and his mandate by winning the previous GE on that premises.

“This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.”


When you have said to an establishment or organisation that you are leaving, do you then try to get back in via the back door?
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:46 am

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
There was actually a rather substantial qualification: "This referendum is advisory only, not decisive!"



Remember this from the Prime Minister David Cameron and his mandate by winning the previous GE on that premises.

“This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.”

Which was an abdication of his responsibility he had no mandate for, and which still didn't change the actual character of the referendum – if it had done that, the referendum would have had to be nullified already.

When you have said to an establishment or organisation that you are leaving, do you then try to get back in via the back door?

Your "you" is wobbling all over the place in what it's supposed to mean – you actually want to be the only one to decree what the vote back then presumably meant (stripping all other voters of their own actual intentions!), and at the same time you're trying to strip all other voters of their freedom to have turned away from brexit in disgust or simply disagreement – and you're even insisting on all the 2016 voters who have since died or lost their faculties still somehow definitely insisting on their votes from three years ago, forcing their three-year-old mistake on all your young compatriots who have come of voting age since then.

So no, you're actually just representing the minority here who actually want to crash out at any cost (actually to be paid by the younger generations).
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:41 am

Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Excellent idea.

Then the US and China can pick us off one at a time.


Cue the hysteria

Hmm... so you really think that you, of all people, have any standing to talk about hysteria here...! :rotfl:


A giant experiment: first time that a modern country goes for more regulation within the context of a trade agreement. From the current one market to a market regulated by tariff walls etc.
So we all know the economic argument fails, we all know that the UK can't get better trade agreements than within the EU context (so says the EU trade agreements), we all know that the UK will be the underdog within the big big world, we all know that economicly the UK is heading for a few rough years. Democracy, human rights and the UK itself might be sacrified on the alter of the Brexit believes.
But hey, at least they can keep a few Eastern Europeans out (and let more people in from former colonies).

It is all project fear, it is all hysterica, so nothing to see here.

Today it will be decided if our Noviorbis77 will have to postpone his Brexit party again. This time by a few months or even up to a year. I do hope that one of the conditions is that the UK will not intervine with internal EU matters by using its veto powers otherwise we should expel them. The European frustration with May's government and the house of commons is well felt in the corridors of the European institutions and European capitals.

We will see what today brings to the table, and tomorrow, and next week........ up to Brexit part 213: welcome back UK
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:07 am

The best solution is the hard Brexit. It gives the people of the UK what they voted for. It returns control to the UK. The UK is free to become a global trading nation and the EU does not have to work with a member who does not want to be a member. It is win win for everybody.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:41 am

Dutchy wrote:
Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Cue the hysteria

Hmm... so you really think that you, of all people, have any standing to talk about hysteria here...! :rotfl:


A giant experiment: first time that a modern country goes for more regulation within the context of a trade agreement. From the current one market to a market regulated by tariff walls etc.
So we all know the economic argument fails, we all know that the UK can't get better trade agreements than within the EU context (so says the EU trade agreements), we all know that the UK will be the underdog within the big big world, we all know that economicly the UK is heading for a few rough years. Democracy, human rights and the UK itself might be sacrified on the alter of the Brexit believes.
But hey, at least they can keep a few Eastern Europeans out (and let more people in from former colonies).

It is all project fear, it is all hysterica, so nothing to see here.

Today it will be decided if our Noviorbis77 will have to postpone his Brexit party again. This time by a few months or even up to a year. I do hope that one of the conditions is that the UK will not intervine with internal EU matters by using its veto powers otherwise we should expel them. The European frustration with May's government and the house of commons is well felt in the corridors of the European institutions and European capitals.

We will see what today brings to the table, and tomorrow, and next week........ up to Brexit part 213: welcome back UK


Hey, if we are forced to delay, expected to contribute, we will have a say in eternal matters.

The UKIP MEP’s I will help elect, will represent me well.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:42 am

Klaus wrote:
Which was an abdication of his responsibility he had no mandate for,


You do realise the Cameron government came from a minority government to a majority which gave him that mandate under the Conservative party manifest of 2015, which stated:

We will: give you a say over whether we should stay in or leave the EU, with an in-out referendum by the end of 2017

Klaus wrote:
and which still didn't change the actual character of the referendum – if it had done that, the referendum would have had to be nullified already.


Yes it was an advisory vote for which the government and parliament acted on, its no different had remain received majority of votes and still decided to implement Article 50. the government could act either way it so choose’s and decided to act on the results of the referenda.

And by that measure if remain had the majority vote, should the PM Cameron not try and reform the EU as that was also part of the manifesto. If they voted remain as in stay in the status que do not attempt to reform as remain were happy with the current standards.




Klaus wrote:
Your "you" is wobbling all over the place in what it's supposed to mean – you actually want to be the only one to decree what the vote back then presumably meant (stripping all other voters of their own actual intentions!),


Can you give me your definition of the word “remain & leave” which was the term written in the referenda question:

“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”


Klaus wrote:
and at the same time you're trying to strip all other voters of their freedom to have turned away from brexit in disgust or simply disagreement – and you're even insisting on all the 2016 voters who have since died or lost their faculties still somehow definitely insisting on their votes from three years ago, forcing their three-year-old mistake on all your young compatriots who have come of voting age since then.


So by your measure the referenda should continue to be held to get the result you want, because someone was not eligible to vote in the referenda, because now they have come of age. By that does that mean we have to run it again for any child that was born on that day to reach voting age. In retrospect it would have to happen every year until that child was voting age
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:47 am

zhiao wrote:
Just let them leave! Is the EU this weak? Cut them off and have them reapply if with conditions in 5 years. These extensions are ridiculous. If I were an EU citizen I would be pissed that we would be giving this issue so much attention


You are thinking like a Brexiteer when you say "is the EU this weak?" It's not about them vs. us!

The EU is a club trying to pool resources and help each other out. That's what it's always been. That's what it's always done.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:01 am

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
All I want is a decision to either LEAVE or Remain by the 12th that is my position.


I fear you will be very disappointed.


To be honest, I'm not so sure the extension will be granted. It's likely that it will, but it only takes one "accident[" and the UK is suddenly out. What matters if the EU thinks it's prepared for a hard Brexit. I personally think it's not as prepared as the EU needs to be and thus prefers extension.

prebennorholm wrote:
The EU is a rules based organization.


Following this logic, the only thing the EU has to do is look a) whether the UK is preparing for EU elections and b) if there is substantial progress on getting an approved deal by the UK parliament within a set time frame. Both were clear preconditions to the first extension. If one of these conditions have not been met, then extension should not be granted if the EU considers itself a rule based organisation.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:19 am

A101 wrote:
Remember this from the Prime Minister David Cameron and his mandate by winning the previous GE on that premises.

“This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.”


Was that before or after he resigned? Governments often fail to deliver on their manifesto pledges. Many things change between campaign "promises" and Government.

A101 wrote:
When you have said to an establishment or organisation that you are leaving, do you then try to get back in via the back door?


There's no need to use a back door when you haven't left through the front door yet.

noviorbis77 wrote:
Hey, if we are forced to delay


Who's 'forcing' a delay on us? We asked for it! Again. :confused:

A101 wrote:
Yes it was an advisory vote for which the government and parliament acted on, its no different had remain received majority of votes and still decided to implement Article 50. the government could act either way it so choose’s and decided to act on the results of the referenda.


The Government is trying to deliver Brexit, is it not? It's also the duty of the Government to do what they think is in the best interests of the country. Given the referendum didn't specify what type of Brexit you were voting for, even if we end up with the softest of soft Brexits, the Government will have delivered.

A101 wrote:
And by that measure if remain had the majority vote, should the PM Cameron not try and reform the EU as that was also part of the manifesto.


Yes. So if he tried, but failed to "reform the EU" you can't say they didn't try to deliver that manifesto promise. If we fail to leave the EU, you cannot say the Government didn't try.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:27 am

LJ wrote:
To be honest, I'm not so sure the extension will be granted. It's likely that it will, but it only takes one "accident" and the UK is suddenly out.


Oh absolutely. If just one EU27 leader is in a bad mood today, an extension could be refused.

However, Parliament and the Government have clearly signaled that they don't want a no-deal Brexit and the EU seems to be in the same position. So my expectation is that a long extension (to end of the year or even end of March 2020) will be granted. However, sometimes my expectations are not met. :wink2:

If no extension is granted, then Parliament has a very stark choice on Thursday or Friday - no-deal Brexit or revoke A50. Either way, some will be very happy, many will be very disappointed.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:42 am

Let us put it that way, the comments by some British politicians on sabotaging the EU during the extension have caused a lot of concern, so the UK will have to sign that it won´t do this which means not influence the selection of the next commission, the next budget and so on. If this flies in the British parliament will have to be seen. Without agreeing to this, I expect 2 or 3 countries to veto an extension.
 
A3801000
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:17 am

noviorbis77 wrote:


The UKIP MEP’s I will help elect, will represent me well.


These racist little s***s usually don't bother turning up for any sessions and just take the money.

'UKIP MEPs turning up to fewer votes than any other party in Europe'

unless of course it is about their own money:

'UKIP’s attendance at EU rockets... as Parliament debates their post-Brexit entitlements'

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-5749285

That's what you call 'represent you well'? :D
 
WIederling
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:48 am

A3801000 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:


The UKIP MEP’s I will help elect, will represent me well.


These racist little s***s usually don't bother turning up for any sessions and just take the money.

'UKIP MEPs turning up to fewer votes than any other party in Europe'

unless of course it is about their own money:

'UKIP’s attendance at EU rockets... as Parliament debates their post-Brexit entitlements'

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-5749285

That's what you call 'represent you well'? :D

he. No difference to elected German AfD "popul(ar|istic)" representatives.

regular run of rightwing conserative "Selbstversorger".
Murphy is an optimist
 
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zkojq
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:11 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
How can any of them worked for a manifesto they do not accept.


Because their job is to represent their constituencies, not a particular side of the referendum.
First to fly the 787-9
 
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zkojq
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:16 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
It was clear that leaving meant leaving customs union, the end of free movement and the end of the common market.


Andrea Leadsom saying that the UK will have the same access to the Common Market, tariff free:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noK4OJOjmVk
First to fly the 787-9
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:22 am

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
There was actually a rather substantial qualification: "This referendum is advisory only, not decisive!"



Remember this from the Prime Minister David Cameron and his mandate by winning the previous GE on that premises.

“This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.”

Which was an abdication of his responsibility he had no mandate for, and which still didn't change the actual character of the referendum – if it had done that, the referendum would have had to be nullified already.

When you have said to an establishment or organisation that you are leaving, do you then try to get back in via the back door?

Your "you" is wobbling all over the place in what it's supposed to mean – you actually want to be the only one to decree what the vote back then presumably meant (stripping all other voters of their own actual intentions!), and at the same time you're trying to strip all other voters of their freedom to have turned away from brexit in disgust or simply disagreement – and you're even insisting on all the 2016 voters who have since died or lost their faculties still somehow definitely insisting on their votes from three years ago, forcing their three-year-old mistake on all your young compatriots who have come of voting age since then.

So no, you're actually just representing the minority here who actually want to crash out at any cost (actually to be paid by the younger generations).


The referendum was promised on a Manifesto in 2010 and was delivered.

Are you against Manifesto promises being kept?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:24 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Ok. The majority voted leave in a vote with very high turn out.

You lost. You need to accept and respect the vote.


Let's go in that circle again, what kind of leave did they voted for and aren't people allowed to change their minds? Or do you prefer the leave means leave mantra?


People were told at time of the vote, it was a once in a lifetime vote and the government would honour the vote. A General Election later with both main parties promising to deliver Brexit overwhelmingly gained the most votes.

People knew what was at stake if we voted leave. We had TV debates, government leaflets, the works.

Remainers need to stop using the same tired old arguments that patronise leave voters. Remain lost. Deal with it.


Well the same people also elected the current MPs, didn't they ?
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zkojq
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:48 am

Burried in the Friday news, so as to make the minimal impact possible:

Vote Leave drops appeal against referendum spending fine
Vote Leave has dropped its appeal against a £61,000 fine for breaking electoral law over spending limits, the Electoral Commission has said.

The official pro-Brexit campaign for the UK's EU referendum was fined in July for exceeding its £7m spending limit for the vote.

The campaign said at the time the watchdog's findings were "wholly inaccurate" and politically motivated.

The Vote Leave campaign, fronted by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, was found by the Electoral Commission to have funnelled £675,315 through pro-Brexit youth group BeLeave, days before the referendum in 2016, which helped ensure it did not breach its £7m spending limit.

The founder of BeLeave, Darren Grimes, was fined £20,000 and referred to the police, along with Vote Leave official David Halsall.

But the Commission found there was "significant evidence of joint working" between Mr Grimes and Vote Leave and that Vote Leave should have declared the spending as its own.

An Electoral Commission spokesman said: "Vote Leave has today withdrawn its appeal and related proceedings against the Electoral Commission's finding of multiple offences under electoral law, committed during the 2016 EU referendum campaign.

"Vote Leave was the designated lead campaigner for the leave outcome at the referendum.

"We found that it broke the electoral rules set out by Parliament to ensure fairness, confidence and legitimacy at an electoral event. Serious offences such as these undermine public confidence in our system and it is vital, therefore, that they are properly investigated and sanctioned.



https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47755611




scbriml wrote:
Leavers cry for UK Parliament to have sovereignty. UK Parliament has sovereignty over Brexit. Leavers cry about Parliament. You couldn't make it up. What's that old saying - be careful what you wish for. :rotfl:


Seen today on twitter:

Latest update of British institutions proud British Brexiters seem to hate.

MPs
Peers
The speaker
The judiciary
The treasury
The civil service
The BBC
The press
Universities
Businesses
Election law
and...
The Queen

Image
https://twitter.com/davidschneider/stat ... 7976220675

They're blaming the queen because the other alternative would be to blame themselves.

scbriml wrote:
The Government is trying to deliver Brexit, is it not? It's also the duty of the Government to do what they think is in the best interests of the country. Given the referendum didn't specify what type of Brexit you were voting for, even if we end up with the softest of soft Brexits, the Government will have delivered.


The problem with a soft brexit is that all the brexitards will then keep spouting on and on about how everyone would have all the unicorns if only everyone had believed a bit more and the UK had the courage to "go it alone" with a hard brexit. At least with a hard brexit they get a nice hard dose of reality and have to face the fact that they were conned (obviously, they'll deflect and blame the EU for all the economic hardship, but that's not really the point).
First to fly the 787-9
 
A3801000
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:13 am

Less then 60 hours to go, the British parliament is in session, discussing Council Tax, I am laughing so hard :D
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:18 am

seahawk wrote:
Let us put it that way, the comments by some British politicians on sabotaging the EU during the extension have caused a lot of concern, so the UK will have to sign that it won´t do this which means not influence the selection of the next commission, the next budget and so on. If this flies in the British parliament will have to be seen. Without agreeing to this, I expect 2 or 3 countries to veto an extension.


I have also read that the UK will not be privy to closed-door meetings on long-term planning, which means any time the UK tries to pull such a silly stunt in a meeting it's included in - the final vote will be taken during a meeting it's excluded from. Problem solved.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:19 am

scbriml wrote:

Was that before or after he resigned? Governments often fail to deliver on their manifesto pledges. Many things change between campaign "promises" and Government.


Are suggesting that if a government moves forward with its stated policy within the manifesto is a bad thing, and yes the stated policy was before he resigned as you full well know


scbriml wrote:
There's no need to use a back door when you haven't left through the front door yet.


That’s because we were blocked from getting to the backdoor, someone was watching what was going on (parliament)


scbriml wrote:
The Government is trying to deliver Brexit, is it not? It's also the duty of the Government to do what they think is in the best interests of the country. Given the referendum didn't specify what type of Brexit you were voting for, even if we end up with the softest of soft Brexits, the Government will have delivered.


The government is trying to use Sleight of hand for a BRINO


scbriml wrote:
Yes. So if he tried, but failed to "reform the EU" you can't say they didn't try to deliver that manifesto promise. If we fail to leave the EU, you cannot say the Government didn't try.


Difference here is if we remained in and tried to reform from the inside and failed there is no default position, where as when negotiating to leave and a agreement could not be reached we can still leave as there is a mechanism to leave without an agreement, so yes the government can try and fail but still leave the EU
Last edited by A101 on Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:21 am

A3801000 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:


The UKIP MEP’s I will help elect, will represent me well.


'UKIP’s attendance at EU rockets... as Parliament debates their post-Brexit entitlements'

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-5749285

That's what you call 'represent you well'? :D


Someone just showed me a current poll showing MEP landslide for Labour...
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JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:06 pm

A101 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Was that before or after he resigned? Governments often fail to deliver on their manifesto pledges. Many things change between campaign "promises" and Government.


Are suggesting that if a government moves forward with its stated policy within the manifesto is a bad thing, and yes the stated policy was before he resigned as you full well know


They knew from the start Brexit was an undesirable outcome, but they lied to you because of petty internal politics.

They should just come clean and say it clearly. It's not like they have much face left to save anyway.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:18 pm

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Which was an abdication of his responsibility he had no mandate for,


You do realise the Cameron government came from a minority government to a majority which gave him that mandate under the Conservative party manifest of 2015, which stated:

We will: give you a say over whether we should stay in or leave the EU, with an in-out referendum by the end of 2017

You're missing the point: An elected MP and especially PM cannot abdicate his or her responsibility for the outcome of their policies, completely regardless of any political promises made – using their own judgment and then standing up to take the responsibility for that judgment is inherent in the position and simply cannot be fobbed off to an incidental referendum, regardless of circumstances!

Klaus wrote:
and which still didn't change the actual character of the referendum – if it had done that, the referendum would have had to be nullified already.


Yes it was an advisory vote for which the government and parliament acted on, its no different had remain received majority of votes and still decided to implement Article 50. the government could act either way it so choose’s and decided to act on the results of the referenda.

And out the window go all your attempts to construct a somehow still compulsory effect from it!

Klaus wrote:
Your "you" is wobbling all over the place in what it's supposed to mean – you actually want to be the only one to decree what the vote back then presumably meant (stripping all other voters of their own actual intentions!),


Can you give me your definition of the word “remain & leave” which was the term written in the referenda question:

“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”

The implication was: "Those who advocated for Leave have the responsibility to come up with an actual plan!"

Those Leave advocates have just completely shirked that responsibility, so the regular responsibility of all the elected representatives for the fate of the country kicks back in, and that is not optional, it is mandatory!

Klaus wrote:
and at the same time you're trying to strip all other voters of their freedom to have turned away from brexit in disgust or simply disagreement – and you're even insisting on all the 2016 voters who have since died or lost their faculties still somehow definitely insisting on their votes from three years ago, forcing their three-year-old mistake on all your young compatriots who have come of voting age since then.

So by your measure the referenda should continue to be held to get the result you want, because someone was not eligible to vote in the referenda, because now they have come of age. By that does that mean we have to run it again for any child that was born on that day to reach voting age. In retrospect it would have to happen every year until that child was voting age

If years down the road from a referendum that decision turns out to be completely unworkable and the elected politicians turn out to be completely unable to deal with that situation, it is in fact entirely proper and appropriate to put the then current state of affairs to the people again to either revise the previous decision or to confirm that the country is to be pushed over the cliff edge regardless of not having any workable plan, but notably with the voters now actually knowing the reality of what had just been an unrealistic fantasy before!

That some voters will have dropped off and others joined is just a function of how long the whole miserable debacle has been dragging on; It's not a primary feature.

Still, that surveys have found the actual, real 2019 Brexit to be a lot less palatable then the 2016 rainbows-and-unicorns fantasy is a politically relevant aspect of it all – it would be completely insane and indeed actually undemocratic to force a mistake on a country which clearly doesn't want it any more, just to appease a small bunch of radicals in one infighting party on its last legs before complete disintegration.

It's for good reasons that the primary feature of a democracy is repeated votes on crucial policy directions every few years as circumstances and information do change...!
 
marcelh
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:03 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
If we do have an extension, maybe the UK can help bring down the EU from inside.

This is why we should cut out the Brexit cancer.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:31 pm

A101 wrote:
Are suggesting that if a government moves forward with its stated policy within the manifesto is a bad thing


No, of course not. All I'm saying is that things change between drafting a manifesto and being in Government (especially a minority one). Sometimes it simply isn't possible to deliver on manifesto promises. Many Governments have failed to deliver many manifesto promises.

A101 wrote:
That’s because we were blocked from getting to the backdoor, someone was watching what was going on (parliament)


Damn that sovereign Parliament. Brexiteers got what they were demanding. Irony sucks, eh?

A101 wrote:
The government is trying to use Sleight of hand for a BRINO


What's 'sleight of hand' about it? The referendum didn't specify what Brexit you voted for. Any Brexit is a Brexit.

marcelh wrote:
This is why we should cut out the Brexit cancer.


I completely understand why you would take that stance. However, if an extension is offered, I'm very confident that the EU27 will impose conditions that will protect their interests. That would only be sensible.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:54 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:


The UKIP MEP’s I will help elect, will represent me well.


'UKIP’s attendance at EU rockets... as Parliament debates their post-Brexit entitlements'

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-5749285

That's what you call 'represent you well'? :D


Someone just showed me a current poll showing MEP landslide for Labour...


Although polls generally mean nothing, I’d like to a source for your claim.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:37 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Someone just showed me a current poll showing MEP landslide for Labour...


Although polls generally mean nothing, I’d like to a source for your claim.


Although I already said that someone else showed me, you're lucky I did the legwork for you and found it myself:

https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/ne ... elections/

And before you think about saying "bias" the list of sponsors for that website contains at least one interesting figure...
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
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