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noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:41 am

Tugger wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Richard28 wrote:

  1. implement what... ?
  2. How to keep to previous treaties and commitments?
  3. There is no date any "implementation" should be done by
  4. No confirmation that the vote would be expanded to also include us leaving the Single Market, Customs Union, Euratom, EMA etc etc.
  5. No government can be bound by the decisions of a previous government. That was from David Cameron, not from the current session of Parliamnet
  6. The current Government did not win a majority for their manifesto

Other than that, very good.

I've just come back from France... had a lovely break away from Brexit and all that. The French are still French despite being in the EU, and it was so nice as always to see their national flag flying alongside the EU flag in most places. So nice also to come back and find myself still a European Citizen, retaining my rights for travel, work, residence, retirement and healthcare in the EU :D

So depressing to come back to a UK who are still arguing with themselves at how to put up a border whilst not having a border,and clinging on to all those lies from 2016 as if they were still relevant.

Such a sad lack of openness, truthfulness and facts in the UK.... this made me laugh....

Image


Leave the EU.

Spin spin spin away.

Welcome home.

"Leave the EU" Still nebulous as ever. So what does leave mean to you? What does it/did it mean to everyone else who was voting? You in your head may know what you mean exactly, but does the person next you follow the same definition?

I think you have demonstrated many times over that what you think is in fact different than what other people think when they envision "leave the EU" (at least the several posters that are replying with their views and that you then argue back that is not "leave" according to you. If I understand correctly, your definition encompasses "a complete departure from all rules, regulations, requirements, citizen travel rules, customs rules, etc. No matter what the impact might be to the citizens and the economy and productive capabilities and output of the UK. "

Did I summarize that correctly?

Wait.... a "leaflet"? THAT is your document that you base your argument on? You do know what a leaflet is in the scheme of publications and printed documents don't you? Exactly which leaflet are you basing your views on? Printed on what date by what entity? The reason why the Magna Carta, and the US Declaration of Independence (and the ensuing Constitution) and other such governing documents worked is because everyone involved could read it and either agree or disagree. But then as I understand it this is not your point, you just want to "leave" whatever that means.

Tugg


I voted leave assuming we’d leave the European Parliament, leave the common market, leave the customs. End freedom of movement.

I have repeated this numerous times in these threads but people still ask the same questions.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:53 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
I voted leave assuming we’d leave the European Parliament, leave the common market, leave the customs. End freedom of movement.

I have repeated this numerous times in these threads but people still ask the same questions.


That is fine for you, that is your motivation to vote leave, that doesn't mean that each and everyone of the 17,4 million thought the same and wanted the same as you. And that is the clinching argument: leave wasn't defined and it is time for the Brexitremist to admit is utter clear fact.

Given this, there is a need for a vote on exactly what kind of Brexit the people want, would't you agree.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:01 am

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
I voted leave assuming we’d leave the European Parliament, leave the common market, leave the customs. End freedom of movement.

I have repeated this numerous times in these threads but people still ask the same questions.


That is fine for you, that is your motivation to vote leave, that doesn't mean that each and everyone of the 17,4 million thought the same and wanted the same as you. And that is the clinching argument: leave wasn't defined and it is time for the Brexitremist to admit is utter clear fact.

Given this, there is a need for a vote on exactly what kind of Brexit the people want, would't you agree.


It’s very interesting that remain keeps this line going round and round like a merry-go-round, and as I said on the last page everyone has there own reason to vote the way they did whether it was remain or leave, unless you were living under a rock you could not miss the claims and counter claims.

It’s this persistent line on “What kind of Brexit did people vote for?“ much has been said within the forum on what leave means and continually chant “no plan” mantra , what did they vote for yada yada yada.

What actually gets lost in the argument the Remain camp made it abundantly clear to voters that backing Leave meant leaving the Single Market, including potential trade barriers, paying tariffs and even reverting to WTO rules.

Chancellor Alistair Darling is quoted as saying “those wanting to leave the EU want to pull Britain out of the Single Market, which would mean introducing tariffs and barriers to our trade”. The PM David Cameron on the BBC also said “What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the Single Market”

Remainers cant say that leave wasn’t aware what leaveing the EU ment it was plastered all over their website leaflets media etcetera etcetera but after all that leave received the majority of votes
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:14 am

A101 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Number6 wrote:

Am I right in believing that no Government can bind the hands of the next government?


Yes, you are correct.


Parliment cannot bind it’s successor

And that would have been the outcome of signing the WA and that for which the EU intended

International treaties would be pointless if there wasn't the expectation that future governments would still uphold them. And the Withdrawal Agreement is such an international treaty, as are the Good Friday Agreement and the Lisbon Treaty about the UK's EU membership while we're at it.

I'm well aware that leavers want to simply breach the GFA while ditching the UK's EU membership while at the same time dreaming of all the fantastic trade agreements they would be having – fully ignoring the contradiction and the decline in foreign trust and confidence in a UK which apparently can't be bothered to actually stick to treaties it has entered into.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:21 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
I voted leave assuming we’d leave the European Parliament, leave the common market, leave the customs. End freedom of movement.

I have repeated this numerous times in these threads but people still ask the same questions.


That is fine for you, that is your motivation to vote leave, that doesn't mean that each and everyone of the 17,4 million thought the same and wanted the same as you. And that is the clinching argument: leave wasn't defined and it is time for the Brexitremist to admit is utter clear fact.

Given this, there is a need for a vote on exactly what kind of Brexit the people want, would't you agree.


It’s very interesting that remain keeps this line going round and round like a merry-go-round, and as I said on the last page everyone has there own reason to vote the way they did whether it was remain or leave, unless you were living under a rock you could not miss the claims and counter claims.

It’s this persistent line on “What kind of Brexit did people vote for?“ much has been said within the forum on what leave means and continually chant “no plan” mantra , what did they vote for yada yada yada.

What actually gets lost in the argument the Remain camp made it abundantly clear to voters that backing Leave meant leaving the Single Market, including potential trade barriers, paying tariffs and even reverting to WTO rules.

Chancellor Alistair Darling is quoted as saying “those wanting to leave the EU want to pull Britain out of the Single Market, which would mean introducing tariffs and barriers to our trade”. The PM David Cameron on the BBC also said “What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the Single Market”

Remainers cant say that leave wasn’t aware what leaveing the EU ment it was plastered all over their website leaflets media etcetera etcetera but after all that leave received the majority of votes


The weakness of your argument is not what remainers knew, it is the wide diversity of what leavers believed they were voting for – you're claiming that all 17.4 million Leave voters had exactly the same idea of what that meant as your argument against holding a confirmatory referendum, but that is clearly not true: Leave voters had a wide variety of ideas of what their Leave vote actually meant, and it is getting ever clearer that Leave has shrunk to a minority position by now, and even within that minority there are very different oreferences for the actual outcome.

But if you acknowledged that, you'd have to support a new referendum and you know that you'd lose that one on the lacking merits of what Brexit has ever more clearly turned out to actually be.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:21 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
I voted leave assuming we’d leave the European Parliament, leave the common market, leave the customs. End freedom of movement.

I have repeated this numerous times in these threads but people still ask the same questions.


That is fine for you, that is your motivation to vote leave, that doesn't mean that each and everyone of the 17,4 million thought the same and wanted the same as you. And that is the clinching argument: leave wasn't defined and it is time for the Brexitremist to admit is utter clear fact.

Given this, there is a need for a vote on exactly what kind of Brexit the people want, would't you agree.


It’s very interesting that remain keeps this line going round and round like a merry-go-round, and as I said on the last page everyone has there own reason to vote the way they did whether it was remain or leave, unless you were living under a rock you could not miss the claims and counter claims.

It’s this persistent line on “What kind of Brexit did people vote for?“ much has been said within the forum on what leave means and continually chant “no plan” mantra , what did they vote for yada yada yada.

What actually gets lost in the argument the Remain camp made it abundantly clear to voters that backing Leave meant leaving the Single Market, including potential trade barriers, paying tariffs and even reverting to WTO rules.

Chancellor Alistair Darling is quoted as saying “those wanting to leave the EU want to pull Britain out of the Single Market, which would mean introducing tariffs and barriers to our trade”. The PM David Cameron on the BBC also said “What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the Single Market”

Remainers cant say that leave wasn’t aware what leaveing the EU ment it was plastered all over their website leaflets media etcetera etcetera but after all that leave received the majority of votes


Such a shame, you didn't learn anything from this exchange over all those pages, don't going to repeat it over and over again. There is a reason that I don't react to you and it's not because I am blown away by your brilliance ;)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:33 am

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

That is fine for you, that is your motivation to vote leave, that doesn't mean that each and everyone of the 17,4 million thought the same and wanted the same as you. And that is the clinching argument: leave wasn't defined and it is time for the Brexitremist to admit is utter clear fact.

Given this, there is a need for a vote on exactly what kind of Brexit the people want, would't you agree.


It’s very interesting that remain keeps this line going round and round like a merry-go-round, and as I said on the last page everyone has there own reason to vote the way they did whether it was remain or leave, unless you were living under a rock you could not miss the claims and counter claims.

It’s this persistent line on “What kind of Brexit did people vote for?“ much has been said within the forum on what leave means and continually chant “no plan” mantra , what did they vote for yada yada yada.

What actually gets lost in the argument the Remain camp made it abundantly clear to voters that backing Leave meant leaving the Single Market, including potential trade barriers, paying tariffs and even reverting to WTO rules.

Chancellor Alistair Darling is quoted as saying “those wanting to leave the EU want to pull Britain out of the Single Market, which would mean introducing tariffs and barriers to our trade”. The PM David Cameron on the BBC also said “What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the Single Market”

Remainers cant say that leave wasn’t aware what leaveing the EU ment it was plastered all over their website leaflets media etcetera etcetera but after all that leave received the majority of votes


The weakness of your argument is not what remainers knew, it is the wide diversity of what leavers believed they were voting for – you're claiming that all 17.4 million Leave voters had exactly the same idea of what that meant as your argument against holding a confirmatory referendum, but that is clearly not true: Leave voters had a wide variety of ideas of what their Leave vote actually meant, and it is getting ever clearer that Leave has shrunk to a minority position by now, and even within that minority there are very different oreferences for the actual outcome.

But if you acknowledged that, you'd have to support a new referendum and you know that you'd lose that one on the lacking merits of what Brexit has ever more clearly turned out to actually be.


The question was not what kind of Brexit do you want, but do you want to leave the EU, and the remain side had enough time and resources to create "Project Fear" and describe the catastrophe leaving would be, yet people still wanted to leave.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:42 am

seahawk wrote:
The question was not what kind of Brexit do you want, but do you want to leave the EU


Exactly, this is were you should have stoped your sentence. Now the question lies before us, what kind of Brexit and thus a people's vote is justified, for the reason you have given us.

As for "project fear", yes that might have been the most brilliant frame in history, far superior then "let's spend in on the NHS instead" written on a bus. Problem for the Brexitremist is that most things are most probably true and things turn in this direction anyway. So given the mis presentation - to put it very mildly - of Brexitremist, anyone can see the need to include "remain" on the people's vote.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:49 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

That is fine for you, that is your motivation to vote leave, that doesn't mean that each and everyone of the 17,4 million thought the same and wanted the same as you. And that is the clinching argument: leave wasn't defined and it is time for the Brexitremist to admit is utter clear fact.

Given this, there is a need for a vote on exactly what kind of Brexit the people want, would't you agree.


It’s very interesting that remain keeps this line going round and round like a merry-go-round, and as I said on the last page everyone has there own reason to vote the way they did whether it was remain or leave, unless you were living under a rock you could not miss the claims and counter claims.

It’s this persistent line on “What kind of Brexit did people vote for?“ much has been said within the forum on what leave means and continually chant “no plan” mantra , what did they vote for yada yada yada.

What actually gets lost in the argument the Remain camp made it abundantly clear to voters that backing Leave meant leaving the Single Market, including potential trade barriers, paying tariffs and even reverting to WTO rules.

Chancellor Alistair Darling is quoted as saying “those wanting to leave the EU want to pull Britain out of the Single Market, which would mean introducing tariffs and barriers to our trade”. The PM David Cameron on the BBC also said “What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the Single Market”

Remainers cant say that leave wasn’t aware what leaveing the EU ment it was plastered all over their website leaflets media etcetera etcetera but after all that leave received the majority of votes


Such a shame, you didn't learn anything from this exchange over all those pages, don't going to repeat it over and over again. There is a reason that I don't react to you and it's not because I am blown away by your brilliance ;)



What did I have to learn?........Am I looking for a reaction?......nope

When I I voted to leave the EU I voted for we would do just that leave the EU and all it entails, did I know what the FTA would look like could anyone know....no as it hasn’t been negotiated, am I worried about trading on WTO terms no if that’s the price to be out of the EU I’m happy to pay it. Will moving to WTO rules contravene the GFA no it won’t.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:52 am

A101 wrote:
Will moving to WTO rules contravene the GFA no it won’t.


There is something you could have learned, but clearly didn't.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Number6
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:52 am

A101 wrote:

What actually gets lost in the argument the Remain camp made it abundantly clear to voters that backing Leave meant leaving the Single Market, including potential trade barriers, paying tariffs and even reverting to WTO rules.

Chancellor Alistair Darling is quoted as saying “those wanting to leave the EU want to pull Britain out of the Single Market, which would mean introducing tariffs and barriers to our trade”. The PM David Cameron on the BBC also said “What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the Single Market”

Remainers cant say that leave wasn’t aware what leaveing the EU ment it was plastered all over their website leaflets media etcetera etcetera but after all that leave received the majority of votes


I find this line of argument bizarre. Let me see if I have this right. You listened to the remain campaigns claims that it would mean leaving the CU+SM and then voted against that based on.......well what? There has to be a counter argument to the remain claims to be able form a decision. That was the leave campaign, who at the time were claiming no one said we’d be leaving the single market, claiming that a Norway like deal would be great because Norway was rich and sovereign, that the U.K. would be able to keep the same access to the SM as they do now. You’re claiming that this campaign had absolutely no effect on your vote and you based it solely on the claims from the remain camp. Somehow that logic seems twisted to me, then to apply it blanket like to all the 17.4m voters who voted leave is even more twisted. No election, no referendum has ever had a side that won, yet was completely ignored during the campaign. No one makes a decision without considering a counter argument to the the opposite side. There is no way the leave campaign were ignored by the voters, so claiming they were all informed by the opposition yet all came to the same decision without considering the arguments in their own side is ludicrous.

For Brexit to have be implemented properly, a clear, concise plan was needed that explained the process and the effects. Not an undefined ‘you can have everything’ nonsense spouted during the campaign. Only then can you say that voters were truly informed on the options.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:42 pm

Klaus wrote:

The weakness of your argument is not what remainers knew,

No weakness all it shows everyone had the same access to the same information and made an decision on the information provide. Good or bad.


Klaus wrote:

it is the wide diversity of what leavers believed they were voting for – you're claiming that all 17.4 million Leave voters had exactly the same idea of what that meant


The only thing I’m claim is that those who voted leave most likely knew what leave means in a sense of the meaning of the word leave


Klaus wrote:
but that is clearly not true: Leave voters had a wide variety of ideas of what their Leave vote actually meant,


Can you provide the sources on what “Leave voters had a wide variety of ideas of what their Leave vote actually meant,“

Klaus wrote:
you'd have to support a new referendum and you know that you'd lose that one on the lacking merits of what Brexit has ever more clearly turned out to actually be.


Please do explain what the “lacking merits” refer too, and no I do not have to support a new referendum that’s my prerogative, and the exit has yet to be clearly turned out as no FTA has been discussed
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:45 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Will moving to WTO rules contravene the GFA no it won’t.


There is something you could have learned, but clearly didn't.


Please tell me how moving to WTO rules would put us in breech of the GFA, where does it say that the UK has to stay in the EU in the GFA
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:50 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Will moving to WTO rules contravene the GFA no it won’t.


There is something you could have learned, but clearly didn't.


Please tell me how moving to WTO rules would put us in breech of the GFA, where does it say that the UK has to stay in the EU in the GFA


I don't pretent to be more briljant than others that tried to explain it to you, so why would I give it another shot?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:36 pm

Another case of selective bias

Number6 wrote:

You listened to the remain campaigns claims that it would mean leaving the CU+SM and then voted against that based on.......well what?
.

I listened and read the material that was presented to me, which would have been distributed evenly to all people to read if they so desired, the electorate had been bombarded with information showing exactly what it ment to stay or leave and then made their own independent choice at the ballot box, that’s all I’m saying


Number6 wrote:
There has to be a counter argument to the remain claims to be able form a decision.
.


Yep that was going on with claims and counterclaims one just had to read or listen to it



Number6 wrote:
That was the leave campaign, who at the time were claiming no one said we’d be leaving the single market, claiming that a Norway like deal would be great because Norway was rich and sovereign, that the U.K.would be able to keep the same access to the SM as they do now.
.


Have I ever said it did not occur, what you have to look at the context to which it was being said at the time, was one stating an opinion or stating a fact?

Such as this which was an opinion, https://mobile.twitter.com/arron_banks/ ... 28?lang=en




Number6 wrote:
You’re claiming that this campaign had absolutely no effect on your vote and you based it solely on the claims from the remain camp.


Can you show me where is said that, the only thing I’m claiming is the electorate had access to information from both sides


Number6 wrote:
Somehow that logic seems twisted to me, then to apply it blanket like to all the 17.4m voters who voted leave is even more twisted. No election, no referendum has ever had a side that won, yet was completely ignored during the campaign.
No one makes a decision without considering a counter argument to the the opposite side. There is no way the leave campaign were ignored by the voters, so claiming they were all informed by the opposition yet all came to the same decision without considering the arguments in their own side is ludicrous.


That’s the bias really taking affect





Number6 wrote:
For Brexit to have be implemented properly, a clear, concise plan was needed that explained the process and the effects. Not an undefined ‘you can have everything’ nonsense spouted during the campaign. Only then can you say that voters were truly informed on the options

.


I thought the PM had made that abundantly clear what the process was when he said

“The British public would be voting if we leave would be to leave the EU and leave the single market. We’d then have to negotiate a trade deal from outside with the European Union”
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:55 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

There is something you could have learned, but clearly didn't.


Please tell me how moving to WTO rules would put us in breech of the GFA, where does it say that the UK has to stay in the EU in the GFA


I don't pretent to be more briljant than others that tried to explain it to you, so why would I give it another shot?



You know it’s called research and you don’t have to be a Rhodes scholar to be able to do that.
But if you look you too can find the same information that I do and you will find the GFA does not mean the UK has to remain EU it can exsit with the WTO as well, there’s a large difference between a customs/ quarantine border than a hard security border.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:00 pm

A101 wrote:
It’s very interesting that remain keeps

One thing to note, I am not "remain", and I see no excuse for "leave" proponents to not support a second vote. I actually think the UK will do OK as an independent nation and I think the EU has quite often been an ass about the negotiations. However I also think the UK has been gutless and dithering about the process and that the EU is free to negotiate as they see best. I also believe that the UK will go through a number of very hard years after they leave, adjusting to the new situation. It is a dynamic and strong nation and has survived outside of the EU artifice for most of its existence (as have many nations), so there is no reason, none, that it can't do so now. But it will have its struggles after.

The simple fact is that the people who voted should be afforded to right to actually vote on what "leave" really is, vote on a single, known, defined ballot proposition.

I don't know what "Leavers" are so concerned with since they themselves tout what a good idea it is.

And of course you still haven't answered the question of what your Leave definition is that won your vote.
If only you could find that pamphlet....

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:49 pm

Tugger wrote:
A101 wrote:
It’s very interesting that remain keeps

One thing to note, I am not "remain", and I see no excuse for "leave" proponents to not support a second vote. I actually think the UK will do OK as an independent nation and I think the EU has quite often been an ass about the negotiations. However I also think the UK has been gutless and dithering about the process and that the EU is free to negotiate as they see best. I also believe that the UK will go through a number of very hard years after they leave, adjusting to the new situation. It is a dynamic and strong nation and has survived outside of the EU artifice for most of its existence (as have many nations), so there is no reason, none, that it can't do so now. But it will have its struggles after.

The simple fact is that the people who voted should be afforded to right to actually vote on what "leave" really is, vote on a single, known, defined ballot proposition.

I don't know what "Leavers" are so concerned with since they themselves tout what a good idea it is.

And of course you still haven't answered the question of what your Leave definition is that won your vote.
If only you could find that pamphlet....

Tugg


I think nobody would be against a vote between a hard Brexit and an agreement with the EU, if one could be reached, but that was not the case in 2 years, so the only viable option is the hard Brexit.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:13 pm

seahawk wrote:
Tugger wrote:
A101 wrote:
It’s very interesting that remain keeps

One thing to note, I am not "remain", and I see no excuse for "leave" proponents to not support a second vote. I actually think the UK will do OK as an independent nation and I think the EU has quite often been an ass about the negotiations. However I also think the UK has been gutless and dithering about the process and that the EU is free to negotiate as they see best. I also believe that the UK will go through a number of very hard years after they leave, adjusting to the new situation. It is a dynamic and strong nation and has survived outside of the EU artifice for most of its existence (as have many nations), so there is no reason, none, that it can't do so now. But it will have its struggles after.

The simple fact is that the people who voted should be afforded to right to actually vote on what "leave" really is, vote on a single, known, defined ballot proposition.

I don't know what "Leavers" are so concerned with since they themselves tout what a good idea it is.

And of course you still haven't answered the question of what your Leave definition is that won your vote.
If only you could find that pamphlet....

Tugg


I think nobody would be against a vote between a hard Brexit and an agreement with the EU, if one could be reached, but that was not the case in 2 years, so the only viable option is the hard Brexit.

That is very faulty reasoning. But I know you know that.

The path you are taking in your reasoning would in no way obviate the option for a vote to concur with your conclusion of a hard Brexit.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
ltbewr
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:32 pm

Many of those that voted 'leave' likely have anti-London attitudes, feel that the politicians sent to Parliament in London have forgotten the voters in the industrial and rural areas of the UK, destroyed millions of once decent paying 'blue color' jobs by allowing them to go to China or lower cost EC countries, put more regulations on them as to products, how to use their land and only cared about The City bankers and financial wizards. And likely they would vote for leave again.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
I voted leave assuming we’d leave the European Parliament, leave the common market, leave the customs. End freedom of movement.

I have repeated this numerous times in these threads but people still ask the same questions.


That is fine for you, that is your motivation to vote leave, that doesn't mean that each and everyone of the 17,4 million thought the same and wanted the same as you. And that is the clinching argument: leave wasn't defined and it is time for the Brexitremist to admit is utter clear fact.

Given this, there is a need for a vote on exactly what kind of Brexit the people want, would't you agree.


True. But they voted leave.

I find hear the same stupid comments from remoaners. You don’t know what sort of brexit you wanted. voters are too thick to know what they really wanted. It is pathetic. A nice new bandwagon. Someone suggest the above and squealing nobodies hit twitter posting the same sort of patronising crap you do. As someone not entitled to vote in any referendum your opinion is kind of meaningless is it not?

You spout fact in your comment. None of your comments contain facts. As you said the vote did not specify what sort or leave.

People knew quite clearly what we would lose by voting leave.

It is a referendum. Not bloody rocket science.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:43 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Please tell me how moving to WTO rules would put us in breech of the GFA, where does it say that the UK has to stay in the EU in the GFA


I don't pretent to be more briljant than others that tried to explain it to you, so why would I give it another shot?



You know it’s called research and you don’t have to be a Rhodes scholar to be able to do that.


Perhaps a course of reading would be something that suits you?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Tugger
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:53 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
People knew quite clearly what we would lose by voting leave.

This specific point of yours is, I think, very incorrect. And I think that has been proven out over time. There was no clear information of what "leave" would entail.

Point being that the second vote will address that glaring error and resolve this situation.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:26 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
voters are too thick to know what they really wanted. It is pathetic.


That's the thing, novior, I don't claim that they didn't know what they wanted, I claim that the 17,4million people whom voted Brexit don't want all the same kind of Brexit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:17 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

I don't pretent to be more briljant than others that tried to explain it to you, so why would I give it another shot?



You know it’s called research and you don’t have to be a Rhodes scholar to be able to do that.


Perhaps a course of reading would be something that suits you?



Now that's an original thought :rotfl: :rotfl:

Maybe I should get a set of remain rose tinted glass would that help?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:59 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


You know it’s called research and you don’t have to be a Rhodes scholar to be able to do that.


Perhaps a course of reading would be something that suits you?



Now that's an original thought :rotfl: :rotfl:

Maybe I should get a set of remain rose tinted glass would that help?


More and more you are giving us the same tactics as Scorpius, but you couldn't be the same, you have a different name.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:06 pm

Enjoyed the London - Rotterdam Eurostar train for the first time last Monday. Thought it was marvelous. Hope it doesn't get cancelled in a messy Brexit.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:09 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Perhaps a course of reading would be something that suits you?



Now that's an original thought :rotfl: :rotfl:

Maybe I should get a set of remain rose tinted glass would that help?


More and more you are giving us the same tactics as Scorpius, but you couldn't be the same, you have a different name.

And he doesn't give clear answers or tells you to get the information yourself (often about his own views or opinions). The intent appears to be to dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge!

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:27 pm

Tugger wrote:
However I also think the UK has been gutless and dithering about the process and that the EU is free to negotiate as they see best.

I agree TM has handled the process appallingly, but the only thing I will say in her defence she was thrusted(willingly) into the position only because David Cameron didn't prepare government for life after the referenda if leave received the majority of votes. Cameron’s government failed to prepare for an orderly exit, and the reason for that Cameron's referendum produced a result that few expected and nobody prepared for.

Tugger wrote:
I also believe that the UK will go through a number of very hard years after they leave, adjusting to the new situation.


I also agree as I have said similar things in the past if people actually look, even dutchy recognised that fact a couple of time responding to my posts

Tugger wrote:
The simple fact is that the people who voted should be afforded to right to actually vote on what "leave" really is, vote on a single, known, defined ballot proposition.


Ah the process,,,,,, I had thought that was made quite clear that the FTA hand to be negotiated after the fact, but if you wanted it as part of the referenda question unfortunately the only way that could have come about was if the UK invoked A50 negotiated the withdrawal agreement and a FTA then put it to a referenda,

But that would also have to apply to the remain side as well as a key position of the government was reform of the EU, that too would have had to been negotiated prior for a balanced and unbiased result.

Then both positions would have been clarified and the perhaps the question would have still looked very similar, in theroy the question could have looked like this:

" Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union as negotiated?"
Remain a member of the European Union as negotiated
Leave the European Union as negotiated



Tugger wrote:
And of course you still haven't answered the question of what your Leave definition is that won your vote.


My position has been well defined since I have been posting on the board, and don't feel the need to keep spelling it out all the time

Tugger wrote:
If only you could find that pamphlet....


Ahh the pamphlet...….. those went in the bin long ago
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:13 am

A101 wrote:
My position has been well defined since I have been posting on the board, and don't feel the need to keep spelling it out all the time


With your lengthy, numerous posts, why is it so difficult to quickly re-state exactly where you stand? :scratchchin:
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:24 am

Tugger wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Tugger wrote:
One thing to note, I am not "remain", and I see no excuse for "leave" proponents to not support a second vote. I actually think the UK will do OK as an independent nation and I think the EU has quite often been an ass about the negotiations. However I also think the UK has been gutless and dithering about the process and that the EU is free to negotiate as they see best. I also believe that the UK will go through a number of very hard years after they leave, adjusting to the new situation. It is a dynamic and strong nation and has survived outside of the EU artifice for most of its existence (as have many nations), so there is no reason, none, that it can't do so now. But it will have its struggles after.

The simple fact is that the people who voted should be afforded to right to actually vote on what "leave" really is, vote on a single, known, defined ballot proposition.

I don't know what "Leavers" are so concerned with since they themselves tout what a good idea it is.

And of course you still haven't answered the question of what your Leave definition is that won your vote.
If only you could find that pamphlet....

Tugg


I think nobody would be against a vote between a hard Brexit and an agreement with the EU, if one could be reached, but that was not the case in 2 years, so the only viable option is the hard Brexit.

That is very faulty reasoning. But I know you know that.

The path you are taking in your reasoning would in no way obviate the option for a vote to concur with your conclusion of a hard Brexit.

Tugg


A vote in itself is not the solution, as long as the politicians do not come clear and either present a working plan for a Brexit or declare the impossibility of finding a solution that would not be seriously damaging to the country. At the moment there are only 2 defined options.

1. Remain
2. Hard Brexit

But for a vote to make sense the 3rd option (some kind of new relationship with the EU) needs to be defined or given up. But this will not happen as long as both major parties are still living in fairy tale land with no plan and no solution.

And as long the political class is unable to present well defined options to the public, a new vote is pointless. Which is shown perfectly by the first vote. Brexit could have been anything.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:57 am

If England takes part in the European elections - and it looks like that - Nigel Farage will be the big winner. He was one of the engines behind the Brexit with his UKIP party. With UKIP he has a fight - that's how it goes with extremist parties - so he has set up a new party. The name: BREXIT. That party is probably generously the largest in England. With 27 percent of the votes, Labor (22 percent) and the Conservatives (15 percent) are far behind.

The camp of proponents of the EU is spread over several parties and is not affected. A generous victory from Farage will increase the chance of a Brexit.


Source in Dutch

So we will see Farage continue to be on the Brussels gravy train for another term of doing nothing.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:52 am

Dutchy wrote:
If England takes part in the European elections - and it looks like that - Nigel Farage will be the big winner. He was one of the engines behind the Brexit with his UKIP party. With UKIP he has a fight - that's how it goes with extremist parties - so he has set up a new party. The name: BREXIT. That party is probably generously the largest in England. With 27 percent of the votes, Labor (22 percent) and the Conservatives (15 percent) are far behind.

The camp of proponents of the EU is spread over several parties and is not affected. A generous victory from Farage will increase the chance of a Brexit.


Source in Dutch

So we will see Farage continue to be on the Brussels gravy train for another term of doing nothing.


Hey, need to build up that fat pension. :sarcastic:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:19 am

scbriml wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
If England takes part in the European elections - and it looks like that - Nigel Farage will be the big winner. He was one of the engines behind the Brexit with his UKIP party. With UKIP he has a fight - that's how it goes with extremist parties - so he has set up a new party. The name: BREXIT. That party is probably generously the largest in England. With 27 percent of the votes, Labor (22 percent) and the Conservatives (15 percent) are far behind.

The camp of proponents of the EU is spread over several parties and is not affected. A generous victory from Farage will increase the chance of a Brexit.


Source in Dutch

So we will see Farage continue to be on the Brussels gravy train for another term of doing nothing.


Hey, need to build up that fat pension. :sarcastic:


Whe he is living in Germany you mean, together with his German wife and kids. :sarcastic:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:21 am

With terror coming back to NI perhaps it is time to see that NI peace is fragile.

Talking about backstop and GFA we need to understand that terror can easily come back.

People in Ireland and now NI have not forgot the close appartheid situation that existed between chatolics and protestants.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:49 am

olle wrote:
With terror coming back to NI perhaps it is time to see that NI peace is fragile.

Talking about backstop and GFA we need to understand that terror can easily come back.

People in Ireland and now NI have not forgot the close appartheid situation that existed between chatolics and protestants.


All project fear :roll:

For Brexitremist it doesn't matter what the consequences are, they just want a hard Brexit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:04 am

With extension until haloween what is now the chance that uk leaves at all?

Uk politics is right now similar to western front 1917.

Noone can agree to anything.

I could bet some money right now that uk will still be member 2025.

In the same time with A50 extensions EU27 can start to consider new developments that cannot be possible with UK veto.

Brexit has in some way madd reality of the Brexit propaganda describing UK as rule taker with no veto.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:54 am

olle wrote:
With extension until haloween what is now the chance that uk leaves at all?


Still very high considering that the reason there is still the June 30th deadline which have to be met (in essence, the deadline is June 30th, not October 31st). We'll know if May will be able to get a deal with Labor by June 30th, thus if there's nothing by then, it's quite possible that someone in the EU pulls the plug on June 30th.
 
marcelh
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:54 am

Those clowns in the UK have gotten another 6 months to sort things out. What are they going to do? Are they going to do something, or is it just hibernating untill the next deadline?
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:33 am

marcelh wrote:
Those clowns in the UK have gotten another 6 months to sort things out. What are they going to do? Are they going to do something, or is it just hibernating untill the next deadline?


Hopefully use the time for a no deal exit preparations.
 
marcelh
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:40 pm

A101 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Those clowns in the UK have gotten another 6 months to sort things out. What are they going to do? Are they going to do something, or is it just hibernating untill the next deadline?


Hopefully use the time for a no deal exit preparations.

Preparations? What preparations? I thought the UK was prepared? :white:
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:22 pm

A101 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Those clowns in the UK have gotten another 6 months to sort things out. What are they going to do? Are they going to do something, or is it just hibernating untill the next deadline?


Hopefully, use the time for a no deal exit preparations.


Nope, just six more months of fighting and not agreeing to anything. So perhaps the Brexitremist will get their way and the EU throws the UK out we have better things to do than indulge every whim of Brittish parliament.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Those clowns in the UK have gotten another 6 months to sort things out. What are they going to do? Are they going to do something, or is it just hibernating untill the next deadline?


Hopefully, use the time for a no deal exit preparations.


Nope, just six more months of fighting and not agreeing to anything. So perhaps the Brexitremist will get their way and the EU throws the UK out we have better things to do than indulge every whim of Brittish parliament.



I dare say you are correct Parliament will continue to brouhaha to the end, but that does not mean May if she show an ounce of thought continue to prepare for a no-deal exit
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:29 pm

A101 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Those clowns in the UK have gotten another 6 months to sort things out. What are they going to do? Are they going to do something, or is it just hibernating untill the next deadline?


Hopefully use the time for a no deal exit preparations.


No, this farce must end before the stupid EU elections. The hard Brexit must be announced before the 22nd May and the UK must not participate in this pointless election.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:13 pm

seahawk wrote:


No, this farce must end before the stupid EU elections. The hard Brexit must be announced before the 22nd May and the UK must not participate in this pointless election.


Well all I can say its going to be interesting to say the least, if the numbers being sprouted by the polls and Farage's Brexit party are correct and actually translate into a majority within the UK bloc of seats, it will put a lot a pressure on the politics at home to either try and hammer home a comprise on the WA with the EU (which is unlikely as it will show weakness on the EU side) or just run the clock to a no-deal exist, if the EU by being steadfast on the WA might have committed an own goal by granting the extensions, if the purpose was(and is) to make the choice so difficult that the UK revokes, Brexit party just might have forced the issue in the UK Parliament
 
bennett123
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:37 pm

The WA was reached between the EU and HMG.

I would suggest that Parliament could negotiate with the EU directly, but the Indicative Votes suggest that the outcome would be the same.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:51 pm

bennett123 wrote:
The WA was reached between the EU and HMG.

I would suggest that Parliament could negotiate with the EU directly, but the Indicative Votes suggest that the outcome would be the same.



I cant see the point in going back to the EU, so it only leaves one choice if government honours the referenda
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:26 pm

Never a dull moment within the Tory party. But then again, the Tories are against everything, thus also changing the rule which would enable to hold an extra vote of no-confidence is not going to happen

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/24/theresa-may-survives-attempt-to-allow-early-no-confidence-vote
 
A3801000
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:49 pm

Never a dull moment within the Brexit party: 'The Government should not ban people from watching child porn and Jihadi videos online, one of the new candidates for Nigel Farage’s Brexit party has said.'

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... line-says/
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:32 pm

Calm before the storm......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
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