User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8306
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 02, 2019 8:29 am

So people against the Brexit vote for a party that is 50:50 on Brexit?
 
bennett123
Posts: 8700
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 02, 2019 8:37 am

IMO, Labour and Conservative are both probably 50 50.

To suggest that these parties are 100% pro Brexit essentially ignores recent history.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8306
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 02, 2019 9:02 am

That is their current manifest. And you are trying to say that people against the Brexit would vote a party that is 50:50 on Brexit, maybe those people are also 50:50 and do not care at all.
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 02, 2019 11:33 am

seahawk wrote:
So people against the Brexit vote for a party that is 50:50 on Brexit?


As do people who support Brexit... it goes both ways.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8248
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 02, 2019 11:35 am

seahawk wrote:
So people against the Brexit vote for a party that is 50:50 on Brexit?


So, more now support Brexit than the election? Amazing that.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8248
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 02, 2019 11:37 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
seahawk wrote:
So people against the Brexit vote for a party that is 50:50 on Brexit?


As do people who support Brexit... it goes both ways.


It doesn’t stop Tory MP’s

It doesn’t stop pro United Irish terrorism appeasers (Anti Uk in effect) standing for the Brexit party either.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 02, 2019 11:43 am

seahawk wrote:
That is their current manifest. And you are trying to say that people against the Brexit would vote a party that is 50:50 on Brexit, maybe those people are also 50:50 and do not care at all.


Party affiliation is strong. Personally, I don't think I could ever vote Conservative... and that's despite trying to be fair and consider manifestos etc.

And it is a known fact that the majority of Labour party members favour remain while the executive refuses to take that position. The manifesto reflects this - it is certainly not pro-Brexit, and has conditions when it would call for a second referendum.

All this wishy-washy policy and historical allegiance to certain parties means most people will still vote Tory or Labour even if they're not sure about their stand on Brexit.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8306
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 02, 2019 11:48 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
seahawk wrote:
That is their current manifest. And you are trying to say that people against the Brexit would vote a party that is 50:50 on Brexit, maybe those people are also 50:50 and do not care at all.


Party affiliation is strong. Personally, I don't think I could ever vote Conservative... and that's despite trying to be fair and consider manifestos etc.

And it is a known fact that the majority of Labour party members favour remain while the executive refuses to take that position. The manifesto reflects this - it is certainly not pro-Brexit, and has conditions when it would call for a second referendum.

See...? It's all this wishy-washy stuff and historical allegiance to certain parties that means people will still vote Tory or Labour even if they're not sure they agree with them on Brexit.


So maybe this poll works better for you?

https://twitter.com/britainelects/statu ... 8568122370

Brexit Party 17%
UKIP 4%

vs.

Green 4%
Change UK 4%
Lib Dem 6%

With Labour at 33% and the Conservatives at 26%

If we see the conservatives as pro Brexit and Labour as against it or for BRINO. It is 47% vs 47%. I still do not see the massive switch to a clear support of no Brexit. Imho nothing has changed in the UK. Some might find it sad, but everybody has to recognize it. Britain is not a reliable partner to the EU any more and no solution has a realistic chance of finding a wide majority.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8788
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 02, 2019 12:46 pm

seahawk wrote:
no solution has a realistic chance of finding a wide majority.


That is true, so whatever is chosen, it will face fears opposition from the others. Let's do a BRINO, best for the EU and Britain given the circumstances.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8306
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 02, 2019 12:58 pm

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
no solution has a realistic chance of finding a wide majority.


That is true, so whatever is chosen, it will face fears opposition from the others. Let's do a BRINO, best for the EU and Britain given the circumstances.


I disagree because the last thing the EU can afford is a constant renegotiating with the Brits. A barely accepted BRINO can be ended with the next British election and everybody is looking at the same instability again. Nobody would have any security in planning for the future. Imho the only option that gives stability is the hard Brexit and while it is the most painful for both sides, it at least gives stability to the EU and all persons and companies involved. But in the end I rather plan for a shitty option, that having no chance to plan at all.
 
A101
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 02, 2019 2:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:

That is true, so whatever is chosen, it will face fears opposition from the others. Let's do a BRINO, best for the EU and Britain given the circumstances.



And that highlights the position of those who advocate remain from outside the UK
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8788
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 02, 2019 3:20 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

That is true, so whatever is chosen, it will face fears opposition from the others. Let's do a BRINO, best for the EU and Britain given the circumstances.



And that highlights the position of those who advocate remain from outside the UK


And conveniently forgetting the word "and"..............

Remember that you are not only hurting yourself, but also the remaining EU. So BRINO would be best for ALL involved and you have your Brexit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 02, 2019 3:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

That is true, so whatever is chosen, it will face fears opposition from the others. Let's do a BRINO, best for the EU and Britain given the circumstances.



And that highlights the position of those who advocate remain from outside the UK


And conveniently forgetting the word "and"..............

Remember that you are not only hurting yourself, but also the remaining EU. So BRINO would be best for ALL involved and you have your Brexit.



A BRINO will not help the UK which cedes all Voluntary sovereignty to the EU as the WA is the only BRINO on offer, as you said “ best for the EU” what remainer’s only think about is economic reasons it’s only one part of the equation
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8788
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 02, 2019 4:09 pm

A101 wrote:
A BRINO will not help the UK which cedes all Voluntary sovereignty to the EU as the WA is the only BRINO on offer, as you said “ best for the EU” what remainer’s only think about is economic reasons it’s only one part of the equation


Brexit will not help the UK, but will hurt it, I said minimize damages. Brexitremist only think about this totally elusive "Sovereignty".
There are no upsides to Brexit, but that last statement you want to experience yourself before you want to believe or accept it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 02, 2019 5:27 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Brexit will not help the UK, but will hurt it, I said minimize damages. Brexitremist only think about this totally elusive "Sovereignty".
There are no upsides to Brexit, but that last statement you want to experience yourself before you want to believe or accept it.


No you didn’t say “minimize damages” you said it was best for the EU and Britain, I i showed that the BRINO is not in the best interests of the UK as it cedes all control to the EU as the EU will have ultimate control of if the UK can leave, where in that do you see it is best for the UK the only one it’s best for is the EU
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8788
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 02, 2019 5:41 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Brexit will not help the UK, but will hurt it, I said minimize damages. Brexitremist only think about this totally elusive "Sovereignty".
There are no upsides to Brexit, but that last statement you want to experience yourself before you want to believe or accept it.


No you didn’t say “minimize damages” you said it was best for the EU and Britain, I i showed that the BRINO is not in the best interests of the UK as it cedes all control to the EU as the EU will have ultimate control of if the UK can leave, where in that do you see it is best for the UK the only one it’s best for is the EU


No I said " given the circumstances". Best for the UK would be to stay in the EU, but you want a Brexit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8248
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 02, 2019 6:48 pm

A vote for the Brexit party in the northwest England is a vote for a United ireland.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
A101
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 02, 2019 7:22 pm

Dutchy wrote:

No I said " given the circumstances". Best for the UK would be to stay in the EU, but you want a Brexit.



Well given the circumstances avalible of either an unclean break or a clean break, no deal is the more palatable and in the best interests of the UK the resignations of the from both cabinet and within the withdrawal negotiations team attest to that position.

Shailesh Vara quit as Northern Ireland minister, saying he could not support Mrs May's Brexit agreement which "leaves the UK in a halfway house with no time limit on when we will finally be a sovereign nation".
Dominic Raab quit as Brexit Secretary, saying he "cannot in good conscience support the terms proposed for our deal with the EU".
Work and Pensions Secretary Esther McVey followed suit, saying the Brexit deal "does not honour the result of the referendum".
Suella Braverman resigned as a Brexit minister, saying she was "unable to sincerely support the deal agreed yesterday by Cabinet".
Anne-Marie Trevelyan resigned as a parliamentary private secretary in the Department for Education, saying she cannot support the Brexit deal after negotiations "built on the UK trying to appease the EU".
Conservative MP Ranil Jayawardena also quit his post as a parliamentary private secretary in the Ministry of Justice, telling the Prime Minister that her EU withdrawal agreement "does not deliver a good and fair Brexit".
Gillingham and Rainham MP Rehman Chishti resigned as Conservative vice-chairman and said he could not support the withdrawal agreement
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8306
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 4:46 am

Hard Brexit is the best option for both sides, apart from the fairy tale idea of BRINO which would turn the UK into a vassal of the EU, which will never happen. Hard Brexit gives back full control of their own affairs to both sides.
 
A101
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 5:56 am

seahawk wrote:
Hard Brexit is the best option for both sides, apart from the fairy tale idea of BRINO which would turn the UK into a vassal of the EU, which will never happen. Hard Brexit gives back full control of their own affairs to both sides.



100% agree :checkmark:
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8788
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 7:16 am

seahawk wrote:
Hard Brexit is the best option for both sides, apart from the fairy tale idea of BRINO which would turn the UK into a vassal of the EU, which will never happen. Hard Brexit gives back full control of their own affairs to both sides.


And a hard Brexit maximizing damages for both sides.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8306
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 7:28 am

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Hard Brexit is the best option for both sides, apart from the fairy tale idea of BRINO which would turn the UK into a vassal of the EU, which will never happen. Hard Brexit gives back full control of their own affairs to both sides.


And a hard Brexit maximizing damages for both sides.


That is open for debate. A prolonged or even continuous state of instability with constant renegotiations and the UK constantly threatening to end the existing deal or wanting a different deal would be worse.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8788
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 7:33 am

seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Hard Brexit is the best option for both sides, apart from the fairy tale idea of BRINO which would turn the UK into a vassal of the EU, which will never happen. Hard Brexit gives back full control of their own affairs to both sides.


And a hard Brexit maximizing damages for both sides.


That is open for debate. A prolonged or even continuous state of instability with constant renegotiations and the UK constantly threatening to end the existing deal or wanting a different deal would be worse.


That is an assumption. You could say the same for a hard Brexit, Britain has too much to gain to leave it at a no-deal Brexit and just trade under WTO-rules. So some kind of deal will be made and then Britain could do these renegotiations as well.
So we don't know that, so we have to assume that when a deal is reached, that is it. Given this, a hard Brexit is maximizing damages for both sides. So I would argue that it is not up for debate.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 7:56 am

Dutchy wrote:

That is an assumption. You could say the same for a hard Brexit, Britain has too much to gain to leave it at a no-deal Brexit and just trade under WTO-rules. So some kind of deal will be made and then Britain could do these renegotiations as well.
So we don't know that, so we have to assume that when a deal is reached, that is it. Given this, a hard Brexit is maximizing damages for both sides. So I would argue that it is not up for debate.


Everyone can see that the EU dosnt want the no-deal exit hence the reason for approving the extension’s, but unless the EU compromise no deal exist is the best solution. it takes two to tango, you can’t dance if the other dosnt move with the music
 
Bostrom
Posts: 729
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 8:51 am

Dutchy wrote:
No it doesn't. It isn't the same. All people whom are professionals in their area will point out the difficulties with Brexit. It is quite hard to see how Brexit will actually benefit GB, we have shown you again and again. The same with the Pound. UK will loose importance in the world, Britain will loose economic importance, thus logic dictates the Pound will loose importance and thus will loose value. Logic doesn't equal cristal ball now does it.


Are you trying to apply logic to Brexit? I thought the last three years have showed that it doesn't work… :)
 
bennett123
Posts: 8700
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 9:26 am

A101

Compromise meaning what?.
 
A101
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 10:08 am

bennett123 wrote:
A101

Compromise meaning what?.




If they don’t want the UK to leave on a no deal exit then they will have to wave an olive branch., they are dealing with a pro remain government intent on keeping the UK in the EU in some shape or form(not that I agree with that) by not willing to compromise it backs HMG into a corner where the only way out is to fight it out. Hence what we are seeing in parliament, the EU will get a BRINO if it is willing to compromise, until then it’s in the UK interest to leave without a deal
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 12:39 pm

seahawk wrote:
So maybe this poll works better for you?

https://twitter.com/britainelects/statu ... 8568122370

Brexit Party 17%
UKIP 4%

vs.

Green 4%
Change UK 4%
Lib Dem 6%

With Labour at 33% and the Conservatives at 26%

If we see the conservatives as pro Brexit and Labour as against it or for BRINO. It is 47% vs 47%. I still do not see the massive switch to a clear support of no Brexit. Imho nothing has changed in the UK. Some might find it sad, but everybody has to recognize it. Britain is not a reliable partner to the EU any more and no solution has a realistic chance of finding a wide majority.


I don't know if you see the news about local UK elections where you are, but this is how it's looking so far:


PARTY, COUNCILLORS, CHANGE +/-
Conservative, 1629, -606
Labour, 1109, -78
Liberal Democrat, 741, +389
Green, 87, +71
UKIP, 18, -64
Others, 484, +288

In other words:
pro-Brexit: -27%
slightly Brexitish: -7%
pro-Remain: +111%
pro-Remain: +444%
pro-Brexit: -78%
n/a: n/a

Sooooooo... kind of abso-bloody-lutely obvious that the remain parties are getting huge public boosts and the Brexit parties are getting bashed.

Edit: also, why point to a twitter snapshot of a fictitious general election poll, when the polling site itself shows the point blank EU question as 54% remain versus 46% Brexit back in mid April... And getting more remain all the time!

https://britainelects.com/polling/europe/
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
KLDC10
Posts: 1320
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 2:12 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
seahawk wrote:
So maybe this poll works better for you?

https://twitter.com/britainelects/statu ... 8568122370

Brexit Party 17%
UKIP 4%

vs.

Green 4%
Change UK 4%
Lib Dem 6%

With Labour at 33% and the Conservatives at 26%

If we see the conservatives as pro Brexit and Labour as against it or for BRINO. It is 47% vs 47%. I still do not see the massive switch to a clear support of no Brexit. Imho nothing has changed in the UK. Some might find it sad, but everybody has to recognize it. Britain is not a reliable partner to the EU any more and no solution has a realistic chance of finding a wide majority.


I don't know if you see the news about local UK elections where you are, but this is how it's looking so far:


PARTY, COUNCILLORS, CHANGE +/-
Conservative, 1629, -606
Labour, 1109, -78
Liberal Democrat, 741, +389
Green, 87, +71
UKIP, 18, -64
Others, 484, +288

In other words:
pro-Brexit: -27%
slightly Brexitish: -7%
pro-Remain: +111%
pro-Remain: +444%
pro-Brexit: -78%
n/a: n/a

Sooooooo... kind of abso-bloody-lutely obvious that the remain parties are getting huge public boosts and the Brexit parties are getting bashed.

Edit: also, why point to a twitter snapshot of a fictitious general election poll, when the polling site itself shows the point blank EU question as 54% remain versus 46% Brexit back in mid April... And getting more remain all the time!

https://britainelects.com/polling/europe/


It isn’t obvious at all. These Local Elections are a useless barometer for European Elections, or a General Election for that matter as we learned in 2017 when the Conservatives stormed to a huge victory in Local Elections and lost their majority a couple of weeks later in the General.

Voter turnout has been low. It always is in Local Elections, but it’s a little bit lower than usual this time. This has been compounded, apparently, by widespread ballot spoiling - an exercise I cannot possibly endorse, even if I understand voters’ frustrations.

What we are seeing is both major parties being punished. That means that parties like the Liberal Democrats are making gains, but not necessarily because people have suddenly decided they want to remain in the European Union. This election is more about what people are not voting for, than what they are.

Your logic is entirely skewed, because the Conservatives are not seen as a pro-Brexit party any more among those who voted to leave. UKIP is actually doing better than I expected given their rather toxic brand - especially in the Northern Labour Heartlands.

Aside from UKIP (which, as I explained, suffers from an image problem), there was no real pro-Brexit force on the ballot. This helps to explain the widespread ballot spoiling. There will be a pro-Brexit force in the EU Elections, and it is polling in first place at 30% in virtually every poll. There will also be another pro-Remain force in the form of CUKTIG. This changes the game significantly.

Conclusion: This is a barometer for nothing.
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
737/738/739/744/748/752/763/772/789
A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/A346/A359
Q400/E170/E175/E190/CS300
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 2:32 pm

Nice predictable spin there...

All I did was present the results. Who mentioned "logic" or "barometer"? You're arguing with yourself.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
bennett123
Posts: 8700
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 2:43 pm

A101

Perhaps you could be a bit more explicit about what you want.

Never thought I would see us talking part in the EU elections. The Postal Vote forms go out on Wednesday.
 
KLDC10
Posts: 1320
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 3:04 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Nice predictable spin there...

All I did was present the results. Who mentioned "logic" or "barometer"? You're arguing with yourself.


You’re the one who concluded that these results represent a boost for Remainer parties.
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
737/738/739/744/748/752/763/772/789
A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/A346/A359
Q400/E170/E175/E190/CS300
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 3:07 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Nice predictable spin there...

All I did was present the results. Who mentioned "logic" or "barometer"? You're arguing with yourself.


You’re the one who concluded that these results represent a boost for Remainer parties.


Because that is a fact. It doesn't "represent a boost" it is a boost! Sorry if that hurts you. Did I extrapolate...? No.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8788
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 5:51 pm

A101 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
A101

Compromise meaning what?.




If they don’t want the UK to leave on a no deal exit then they will have to wave an olive branch., they are dealing with a pro remain government intent on keeping the UK in the EU in some shape or form(not that I agree with that) by not willing to compromise it backs HMG into a corner where the only way out is to fight it out. Hence what we are seeing in parliament, the EU will get a BRINO if it is willing to compromise, until then it’s in the UK interest to leave without a deal


It is the UK which isn't clear what they want. So indeed, the question is what do you want the EU to compromise on?

All the choices before you and this is around 3 years old, so pick one. Brino, fine, do the Norwegian model, want to hold on to one of the red lines, the choices are obvious. As for the 3 red lines the EU has chosen, well we can hardly compromise on those. And those will be let loose if a final deal has been struck.
1. Current EU citizens in the UK should be the same as of now (as do UK citizens in the EU)
2. Settlement for future obligations (agreed up on what the amount is and thus that are the obligations of the UK, with or without a deal)
3. No border in Northern Ireland (Good Friday Agreement, thus also unnegotiable).

As I have been saying for the past 3 years, it has been up to the British parliament to choose one, they can't agree on one.

Image
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 6:37 pm

bennett123 wrote:
A101

Perhaps you could be a bit more explicit about what you want.



Ok I’ll put it in simple terms,
Leave the EU and all that intails EU parliament ECJ etc, and trade with the EU as it was a third country under an FTA
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8788
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 6:54 pm

A101 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
A101

Perhaps you could be a bit more explicit about what you want.



Ok I’ll put it in simple terms,
Leave the EU and all that intails EU parliament ECJ etc, and trade with the EU as it was a third country under an FTA


WTO terms fine, you still don't know what that is.

But you mentioned that the EU should compromise, what should the compromise look like.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 7:40 pm

Dutchy wrote:

It is the UK which isn't clear what they want. So indeed, the question is what do you want the EU to compromise on?

All the choices before you and this is around 3 years old, so pick one. Brino, fine, do the Norwegian model, want to hold on to one of the red lines, the choices are obvious. As for the 3 red lines the EU has chosen, well we can hardly compromise on those. And those will be let loose if a final deal has been struck.
1. Current EU citizens in the UK should be the same as of now (as do UK citizens in the EU)
2. Settlement for future obligations (agreed up on what the amount is and thus that are the obligations of the UK, with or without a deal)
3. No border in Northern Ireland (Good Friday Agreement, thus also unnegotiable).

As I have been saying for the past 3 years, it has been up to the British parliament to choose one, they can't agree on one.


Your forgetting that the EU/TM agreed to a WA, TM can’t get it passed parliament as it stands the only way for the WA to pass is that the EU needs to compromise. By agreeing to a request from the UK to extend the exit date shows the EU also dosnt want the UK to leave without a deal.

No deal exist is the default, the EU need to decide what is in their best interest with the least amount of risk to the EU comprise on the WA or no deal exit. Concerns of why the WA will not pass has been out in the open for sometime on what will be needed to get the WA across the line
 
A101
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 7:55 pm

Dutchy wrote:

WTO terms fine, you still don't know what that is.



Engage the grey matter before you sprout your dibble. Read what I wrote in the context of the question I was answering.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8788
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 8:04 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

WTO terms fine, you still don't know what that is.



Engage the grey matter before you sprout your dibble. Read what I wrote in the context of the question I was answering.


All kinds of Free-Trade Agreement. So since you didn't specify and you are on record that you want a hard Brexit, then you are going to trade on WTO terms until such a FTA is established, wish could take 10 years. So until you specify otherwise, FTA is a no go, just like everything else your Parliament has voted against.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8788
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 8:09 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

It is the UK which isn't clear what they want. So indeed, the question is what do you want the EU to compromise on?

All the choices before you and this is around 3 years old, so pick one. Brino, fine, do the Norwegian model, want to hold on to one of the red lines, the choices are obvious. As for the 3 red lines the EU has chosen, well we can hardly compromise on those. And those will be let loose if a final deal has been struck.
1. Current EU citizens in the UK should be the same as of now (as do UK citizens in the EU)
2. Settlement for future obligations (agreed up on what the amount is and thus that are the obligations of the UK, with or without a deal)
3. No border in Northern Ireland (Good Friday Agreement, thus also unnegotiable).

As I have been saying for the past 3 years, it has been up to the British parliament to choose one, they can't agree on one.


Your forgetting that the EU/TM agreed to a WA, TM can’t get it passed parliament as it stands the only way for the WA to pass is that the EU needs to compromise. By agreeing to a request from the UK to extend the exit date shows the EU also dosnt want the UK to leave without a deal.

No deal exist is the default, the EU need to decide what is in their best interest with the least amount of risk to the EU comprise on the WA or no deal exit. Concerns of why the WA will not pass has been out in the open for sometime on what will be needed to get the WA across the line


Default seem to be to extend the Brexit-date till some kind of agreement is reached. Remember the UK has the option to leave the union as it wish, but it hasn't and Parliament have voted against a no-deal Brexit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 9:04 pm

Dutchy wrote:

All kinds of Free-Trade Agreement.

Well done you stated the obvious

Dutchy wrote:
So since you didn't specify and you are on record that you want a hard Brexit, then you are going to trade on WTO terms until such a FTA is established,


Obviously that will happen if a withdrawal agreement cannot be reached


Dutchy wrote:
wish could take 10 years. So until you specify otherwise, FTA is a no go, just like everything else your Parliament has voted against.


The UK does not have to specify any existing agreement if it wishes or it can use an existing agreement as a template to reduce the time that an FTA comes into force.

That’s why it’s called negotiations both sides have to agree.

Dutchy wrote:
Default seem to be to extend the Brexit-date till some kind of agreement is reached. Remember the UK has the option to leave the union as it wish, but it hasn't and Parliament have voted against a no-deal Brexit.


Yes the extension are a vain attempt to reach an agreement, the EU clearly see this as in their best interest for the UK to withdraw with an agreement otherwise they would not have agreed to the extension and the UK would have existed on the 29th March.

Now if the rabble in parliament keep doing what they have been doing then they only have two options revoke A50 or leave without an agreement. If parliment intends to honour the result which they have said they will do then the only option is no- deal exist. The EU then has to make a determination if that is in their best interest or compromise on the existing WA. I’m not saying they will or will not the up to Brussels to figure out, the EU negotiated the deal of the centenary for the EU but it can’t get past the last hurdle in its current form.

This is the question for the EU...........compromise on the WA or no deal exit which is the worst of the to evilsp
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8788
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 9:22 pm

A101 wrote:
Yes the extension are a vain attempt to reach an agreement, the EU clearly see this as in their best interest for the UK to withdraw with an agreement otherwise they would not have agreed to the extension and the UK would have existed on the 29th March.

Now if the rabble in parliament keep doing what they have been doing then they only have two options revoke A50 or leave without an agreement. If parliment intends to honour the result which they have said they will do then the only option is no- deal exist. The EU then has to make a determination if that is in their best interest or compromise on the existing WA. I’m not saying they will or will not the up to Brussels to figure out, the EU negotiated the deal of the centenary for the EU but it can’t get past the last hurdle in its current form.

This is the question for the EU...........compromise on the WA or no deal exit which is the worst of the to evilsp


You seem to forget that the UK has asked for an extension, not the EU. You seem to forget the Parlement also sad that they will not do a no-deal Brexit. You seem to forget there is a 3rd way, except the compromise which is the WA.

You could turn that argument around: this is the question for the UK............compromise on the WA (accept it as it is) or no deal exit or revoke Article 50, which is the worst of the three evils?

You can see that the EU is getting fat up with the UK, so the chances that they will give in another time to the demands of the British are slim at best, so then it is still the choice of the UK Parlement.....
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 9:56 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Nice predictable spin there...

All I did was present the results. Who mentioned "logic" or "barometer"? You're arguing with yourself.


You clearly know nothing about British politics.

These were local elections.

Hardly an interpretation on the publics desired outcomes of Brexit.

Although a lot of Brexit supporters did not vote in the local elections.

Lets see how much of the vote the Brexit party get come the EU elections. They’ve got my vote.
 
User avatar
Dieuwer
Posts: 1159
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 10:21 pm

Looks like pro-BREXIT parties lost and REMAIN parties won in the latest local elections.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48142181

It is refreshing to hear a politician speak unambiguously:
Sir Vince wrote:
Every vote for the Liberal Democrats was a vote for stopping Brexit
Last edited by Dieuwer on Fri May 03, 2019 10:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8788
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 10:21 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Nice predictable spin there...

All I did was present the results. Who mentioned "logic" or "barometer"? You're arguing with yourself.


You clearly know nothing about British politics.

These were local elections.

Hardly an interpretation on the publics desired outcomes of Brexit.

Although a lot of Brexit supporters did not vote in the local elections.

Lets see how much of the vote the Brexit party get come the EU elections. They’ve got my vote.


uahhhhrrhrhrh these mixed massages. Has nothing to do with Brexit and a lot of Brexiteers didn't vote. And yet the two ruling parties have lost an incredible amount of seats. Only a true Brexiteer would see no connection here.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8788
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 10:22 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Looks like pro-BREXIT parties lost and REMAIN parties won in the latest local elections.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48142181

It is refreshing to hear a politician speak unambiguously:
Sir Vince wrote:
Every vote for the Liberal Democrats was a vote for stopping Brexit


Yes obviously, the LibDems are quite vocal about Brexit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dieuwer
Posts: 1159
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 10:24 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Looks like pro-BREXIT parties lost and REMAIN parties won in the latest local elections.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48142181

It is refreshing to hear a politician speak unambiguously:
Sir Vince wrote:
Every vote for the Liberal Democrats was a vote for stopping Brexit


Yes obviously, the LibDems are quite vocal about Brexit.


I am not following UK politics closely, but the Lib Dems are like the UK version of D66?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8788
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 10:29 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Looks like pro-BREXIT parties lost and REMAIN parties won in the latest local elections.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48142181

It is refreshing to hear a politician speak unambiguously:


Yes obviously, the LibDems are quite vocal about Brexit.


I am not following UK politics closely, but the Lib Dems are like the UK version of D66?


Yes, I guess so, more or less. It is a centralist party. Interesting fact, Nick Clegg had Dutch relatives, so he was in the Dutch news quite a lot, in Dutch :D The Lib Dems were the junior coalition party at the time.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
bennett123
Posts: 8700
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 10:44 pm

Easy to say.

Parliament had a series of Indicative Votes and rejected all of them.

Perhaps best to go for WTO and hope for the best.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8788
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 10:55 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Easy to say.

Parliament had a series of Indicative Votes and rejected all of them.

Perhaps best to go for WTO and hope for the best.


Why hope? You know what you get then and when you get new trade agreement. Ah well, within the WTO everyone has a veto and wasn't it Moldavia whom said they would block everything because the United Kingdom didn't let their foreign minister in.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: A3801000, Magog, marcelh, seb146 and 39 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos