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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 09, 2019 7:09 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Wow great comeback


You don't like your own train of thought, you are not alone :lol:



:rotfl: well I guess that went over your head :rotfl:


I understand, you don't like your reflection in the mirror ;)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 09, 2019 7:30 am

Dutchy wrote:
So you are saying that small EU nations can block a fast trade deal with the EU, you are correct. So if the UK - they want something remember - want a fast trade deal with the EU, large concessions are needed on the UK side.

You can stop right here. If UK wants a trade deal with EU the first step (concession!) is to ratify the WA.
The No Deal nonsense stops there.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 09, 2019 7:48 am

Grizzly410 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So you are saying that small EU nations can block a fast trade deal with the EU, you are correct. So if the UK - they want something remember - want a fast trade deal with the EU, large concessions are needed on the UK side.

You can stop right here. If UK wants a trade deal with EU the first step (concession!) is to ratify the WA.
The No Deal nonsense stops there.


:checkmark: correct
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 09, 2019 8:22 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You don't like your own train of thought, you are not alone :lol:



:rotfl: well I guess that went over your head :rotfl:


I understand, you don't like your reflection in the mirror ;)


:rotfl: least you getting the art of the quip
 
A3801000
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 09, 2019 8:50 am

Any big Europe Day celebrations today in the UK? :D
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 09, 2019 10:38 am

Dutchy wrote:

Oh man, "if we need it and no choice but import, we will most likely set up FTA with others before the EU" this perfectly sums it up then.



Oh did you forget you said it was going to take 10 years for a complex trade deal with the US, I imagine you think it will take the same from the EU, all I suggested we should have done a few FTA by the time a EU/UK agreements is reached and hopefully the EU market share will be diminished by the time it rolls along 67b was the trade imbalance between the EU/UK will go to someone else.


Dutchy wrote:
When you are out of the EU, you can import anything you want, import tariffs to zero and there you go. You do not even need a trade agreement for that. Where you need a trade agreement for is that you can EXPORT to that country without high tariffs and WTO terms mean you are in the highest tariff slab without a trade deal.


Geez the arrogance of the Remain camp, you seem to think the EU is the centre of the universe and the UK cannot survive without you, you are awere that the UK is working on transitional agreements while all might not be in place trade work both ways. Change is coming but it is something we should not fear.


Dutchy wrote:
The EU will not make any trade deal with you,


That’s your prerogative, but it would be a foolish stance from the EU

Dutchy wrote:
nor will any other country, why would they, they have everything they want, they can export everything and keep UK products out of their home market.


Shit mate that must be good stuff your on, there are a number of nations who want to do trade deals with the UK after we leave the EU but can’t as you are awere as we are still members of the EU



Dutchy wrote:
Just a reality check: the UK will be at a disadvantage against any nation, because it will have ZERO trade deals when leaving the EU, zero.


Whilst we may not have actual FTA in place as we actually can’t do any as you know. but we will have continuity agreements and continue to do these until more formal agrangements are in place



Dutchy wrote:
they need us more, than we need them. Guess what, we don't......


Well you got nothing to worry about then, you’ll be right jack, but I imagine those EU capitalist that you despise might just be a little bit worried about that £342b per year hit to the economy might feel a bit different
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 09, 2019 11:34 am

Ok, you still haven't grasped it, you seem a reasonable intelligent chap, so that makes me think that you deliberately trolling by now. :roll:

It is so simple. The EU stand to loose an export of 360b out of 13,475b of the economy and that is if the UK will buy zero from the EU, which it won't. The UK stand to loose 100% of its export because it will have no deals, none. You will not have the 70+ trade deals done in an instance, impossible. And yeah, if you don't want to give everything away, it takes a long time to negotiate a trade deal, you can do fast trade deals and give everything away. #getting back control

With a hard Brexit - which you want remember - the only route left open for you is to open up your hole economy until you get a trade deal in place, or a number of them. Now that means zero tariffs for everything and everyone. Given that circumstances, why would any country make a trade deal with you, they can trade everything frictionless, tariff free, but you can't. The other route is have massive tariffs for everyone, so that means that living in the UK will be tremendously expensive - thought you were champening the lower and middle socioeconomic classes.

Rightfully so, you are saying that trade deals are important. :roll:

BTW I see you are dissecting my post and in doing so will loose all context and then you decide to react to a single phrase, out of context. So clever, so transparent
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 09, 2019 10:10 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Ok, you still haven't grasped it,


Far from it,I see how realpolitik is played out

Dutchy wrote:
you seem a reasonable intelligent chap, so that makes me think that you deliberately trolling by now. :roll:


I got a laugh out of that, but whatever floats your boat.

Dutchy wrote:

It is so simple. The EU stand to loose an export of 360b out of 13,475b of the economy and that is if the UK will buy zero from the EU, which it won't.



Overall EU trade is in decline,some nations within the EU are more susceptible to fluctuations to its overall internal economy, takeaway the current trade between the UK/ EU and you will find that some members will move into negative growth which will may lead to a economic recession which can have adverse affects on borrowing, credit rating which increase inflationary pressures etc , is Germany prepared for another Greece type bailout when its own economic conditions have been reduced, dosnt sound like much but that 50b trade imbalance is what keeps the German economy ticking along, so mutual trade is beneficial to both the EU/UK irrespective if we are part of the Union or not.

Dutchy wrote:

The UK stand to loose 100% of its export because it will have no deals, none



You know that is a false assertion as I explained before we will have a number of Mutual Recognition Agreements to tie us over until more formal agreements take place, the UK is not operating in a vacuum


Dutchy wrote:

You will not have the 70+ trade deals done in an instance, impossible. And yeah, if you don't want to give everything away, it takes a long time to negotiate a trade deal, you can do fast trade deals and give everything away. #getting back control



I haven’t said that is not the case, fall back position is trade under WTO rules if no one wants to do the Mutual Recognition Agreement



Dutchy wrote:

With a hard Brexit - which you want remember - the only route left open for you is to open up your hole economy until you get a trade deal in place, or a number of them.



Wrong but it is an option open to government.


Dutchy wrote:

Now that means zero tariffs for everything and everyone. Given that circumstances, why would any country make a trade deal with you, they can trade everything frictionless, tariff free, but you can't. The other route is have massive tariffs for everyone, so that means that living in the UK will be tremendously expensive - thought you were champening the lower and middle socioeconomic classes.



We in theory could reduce tariffs to zero if we wanted, but we won’t do that as we still have some industry we want to protect from oversupply or dumping. But one thing you also have to take into account if it were to happen it would reduce the cost of living pressure on the low socioeconomic group



Dutchy wrote:

BTW I see you are dissecting my post and in doing so will loose all context and then you decide to react to a single phrase, out of context. So clever, so transparent



No I don’t lose context as the answer is in context to what you have written, by grouping the conversations make it easier for others to follow the flow of the conversation.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 10, 2019 10:47 am

A101 wrote:
We in theory could reduce tariffs to zero if we wanted, but we won’t do that as we still have some industry we want to protect from oversupply or dumping. But one thing you also have to take into account if it were to happen it would reduce the cost of living pressure on the low socioeconomic group


The impact on manufacturing would be severe if tarrifs were reduced to zero. Farming would almost be wiped out, even Patrick Minford stated that. Tax take would take a massive hit and the govenment would be forced to increase taxes. There already is a study showing how much of an increase with any type of Brexit taxes would likely have to be raised. One guess, on a no deal it is significant.

That would wipe out any potential positive impact on low socioeconomic groups.


Please also remember what some countries have already said what they want in return for deals. The US wants access to the NHS, and to send us animal produce that doesnt' meet EU standards. The govenment has stated they won't reduce standards. Access to the NHS from foreign private companies is unacceptable to the British electorate.



So what happens there? This is why saying that trading on WTO terms for ANY period of time is crazy. And who on earth will negotiate the trade deals? The current govenment have done a bang up job so far haven't they! And there is no sign from polling to suggest anyone else except labour will get in to replace them, and they want a public vote on Brexit if the govenment doesn't get 'A customs union'.

Half our 'friends' have objected to our WTO schedules.

No tarrifs = not acceptable.
WTO terms only for any period with no deals = not acceptable

You will not get a deal with the EU as good as we have now. You won't get deals as good as we have now with the other 70+ states around the world we have now, because we are a member of the EU.
I don't trust for one second this govenment, or a 'Brexit' party govenment to negotiate trade deals that are in the best interest of UK citizens, farmers or companies.


I see Farage is deliberately avoiding these types of questions, because he knows the public won't accept the answers. Those that are voting for him without having these answers, those members of the press that aren't demanding these answers are all as much to blame for the current situation as anything.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 10, 2019 12:19 pm

 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 10, 2019 1:35 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
I see Farage is deliberately avoiding these types of questions, because he knows the public won't accept the answers. Those that are voting for him without having these answers, those members of the press that aren't demanding these answers are all as much to blame for the current situation as anything.


He was on Question Time last night calling for "a WTO Brexit". :sarcastic:
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 10, 2019 3:08 pm

Reinhardt wrote:

The impact on manufacturing would be severe if tarrifs were reduced to zero. Farming would almost be wiped out, even Patrick Minford stated that. Tax take would take a massive hit and the govenment would be forced to increase taxes. There already is a study showing how much of an increase with any type of Brexit taxes would likely have to be raised. One guess, on a no deal it is significant.

That would wipe out any potential positive impact on low socioeconomic groups


Agree if they reduced tariffs to zero for all trade, the government also has ruled that out, in the event of a no deal exit they will reduce tariffs for continuity purposes for a short time, this could be done for items that are not produced in the UK.

As an illustration on how tariffs may work on a no deal divorce, car parts suppliers in the UK will have reduced or no tariffs, but imported cars will still have tariffs placed on them

All free trade deals will have impacts on tax revenues, governments have to balance this out when doing deals, we saw the same thing happen when we joined the EU which reduced government revenue





Reinhardt wrote:

Please also remember what some countries have already said what they want in return for deals. The US wants access to the NHS, and to send us animal produce that doesnt' meet EU standards. The govenment has stated they won't reduce standards. Access to the NHS from foreign private companies is unacceptable to the British electorate.



Yes what they would like and what they get is a different kettle of fish, this rumour about NHS and a US trade deal has been going on well before Brexit, it was one of the key tenants of contention with a EU/US trade deal and also the TTIP, some point to the Health and Social Care Act 2012 as a mean of privatisation by including more competition.

But if you look at CETA the government cannot water down their labour legislation simply to improve trade, and does limit the government ability to regulate their public services.


Reinhardt wrote:

So what happens there? This is why saying that trading on WTO terms for ANY period of time is crazy. And who on earth will negotiate the trade deals? The current govenment have done a bang up job so far haven't they! And there is no sign from polling to suggest anyone else except labour will get in to replace them, and they want a public vote on Brexit if the govenment doesn't get 'A customs union'.


EU has no FTA with either the US or China and rely on WTO to trade with larger economy, in reality nothing really changes in the status quo in relation to China and the US, we are having informal discussion with nations that already have agreements with the EU about rolling over these agreements as they still want access to UK trade as it’s still in their best interest to do so



Reinhardt wrote:
No tarrifs = not acceptable.
WTO terms only for any period with no deals = not acceptable


I agree to an extent, but realise it’s a short term measure in dealing with the EU to ensure continuity of existing trade between the EU/UK

Reinhardt wrote:

You will not get a deal with the EU as good as we have now. You won't get deals as good as we have now with the other 70+ states around the world we have now, because we are a member of the EU.


That only stands to reason as we will no longer be a member of the EU, what the eventual trade deal is with the EU time will tell.

Reinhardt wrote:

I don't trust for one second this govenment, or a 'Brexit' party govenment to negotiate trade deals that are in the best interest of UK citizens, farmers or companies.


Well I’m not expecting this Government will be in power at the next GE, who actually forms government is up to the electorate, if your eligible to vote do it, it’s in your hands.

Reinhardt wrote:
I see Farage is deliberately avoiding these types of questions, because he knows the public won't accept the answers. Those that are voting for him without having these answers, those members of the press that aren't demanding these answers are all as much to blame for the current situation as anything.



Hearsay on your part as you can’t possibly know what the electorate is thinking, or what the entire electorate will accept or not.

As to your complaint about journalists complain to their editors if you feel that way
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 10, 2019 8:26 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
https://brexitcentral.com/the-bbcs-latest-brexit-documentary-shows-the-contempt-in-which-the-eu-negotiators-hold-us/#menu

Looks an interesting program.


Yep wasn’t hard to see what they were doing, the EU struck gold when they got May as the next PM as it was her intent all along to remain in some shape or form with the EU.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 10, 2019 8:43 pm

This is getting most boring.

Jesus, Britain, can you just decide what exactly you want and let’s all move on.
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 10, 2019 8:48 pm

BestWestern wrote:
This is getting most boring.

Jesus, Britain, can you just decide what exactly you want and let’s all move on.


:checkmark: 3 years of waiting on the UK......
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 10, 2019 9:35 pm

BestWestern wrote:
This is getting most boring.

Jesus, Britain, can you just decide what exactly you want and let’s all move on.


Could not agree more, we should have been gone buy now, the EU was pretty good at saying no before should have said no to the extension, but that dosnt suit their agenda of keeping the UK firmly in the EU
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 10, 2019 9:39 pm

A101 wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
This is getting most boring.

Jesus, Britain, can you just decide what exactly you want and let’s all move on.


Could not agree more, we should have been gone buy now, the EU was pretty good at saying no before should have said no to the extension, but that dosnt suit their agenda of keeping the UK firmly in the EU



:roll:

The UK parlement has said "no" to everything, the EU.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 10, 2019 11:47 pm

Dutchy wrote:
:roll:

The UK parlement has said "no" to everything, the EU.


To put it in context,

The EU said no to all the requirements outlined by TM and the negotiations team hoping that the talks will collapse and the UK gives up because it’s all to hard.

When there was a way for the EU to put a stop to it all they finally said yes to something TM asked for, but the catch was that the UK still remains in the EU for longer period which is what the EU ultimately wants, when they could have ended all the uncertainty.

Yes I blame the current UK government for creating all the uncertainty, but the EU had a chance to put it to bed once and for all and we could all have moved forward


If the UK was a horse you would have done the humane thing at shot it to put it out of it’s misery
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 11, 2019 1:00 pm

A101 wrote:
To put it in context,

The EU said no to all the requirements outlined by TM and the negotiations team hoping that the talks will collapse and the UK gives up because it’s all to hard.


Why isn't that a fair strategy for the EU? It's in the task of the EU to say no to requirements which are against its objectives. Moreover, this shows that the EU actually cares about its citizens as it's far more beneficial for the EU that the UK remains within the EU.Any strategy which ensures that should be considered a good strategy. It's not that the EU needs to take care of what happens in the UK after Brexit. This may sound harsh but let's face it, it's business and the UK is doing the same thing, albeit with a different objective and strategy.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 11, 2019 1:11 pm

I'm surprised our Brexiteers didn't show of the growth of the UK economy. A jump of 2.2% in manufacturing should be proof the the UK is doing fine with Brexit upcoming....but wait that growth is most likely due to stockpiling. Prbably also why we don't hear much about it in this thread.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0510/1048615-uk-economic-figures/
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 11, 2019 2:24 pm

LJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
To put it in context,

The EU said no to all the requirements outlined by TM and the negotiations team hoping that the talks will collapse and the UK gives up because it’s all to hard.


Why isn't that a fair strategy for the EU? It's in the task of the EU to say no to requirements which are against its objectives. Moreover, this shows that the EU actually cares about its citizens as it's far more beneficial for the EU that the UK remains within the EU.Any strategy which ensures that should be considered a good strategy. It's not that the EU needs to take care of what happens in the UK after Brexit. This may sound harsh but let's face it, it's business and the UK is doing the same thing, albeit with a different objective and strategy.


For all intents of the EU and wanting the UK to remain in the union it was a brilliant strategy, but as a strategy it contravenes Section 1 & 2 in Article 50 as it states,

2: A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3)[12] of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council [of the European Union], acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

The significant part of the clause is “taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union.” The EU negotiating team placed undue restrictions on the UK under the guise of the backstop for the GFA by doing so the were usurping Section 1 of Article 50, of the UK sovereign rights

1: Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

The UK went above and beyond Section 1, it was the EU who was looking for a way to circumvent the UK’s sovereign right from leaving by placing demands in the WA in respects to the GFA to come up with a solution when we did not know what the future trade relationships would be catch 22. By restricting that ability of the UK could not negotiate the future relationship, and then by inserting a provision within the WA that gave final authority to the EU when it could leave the EU broke it’s own rules, it is fact that the EU have a legal duty to help us look at the future relationship afterwards in regards to Article 50 as part of the Lisbon Treaty which all nations ratified

Now that a UK and Irish governments have signed an agreement that formally outlines the provisions of the Common Travel Area (CTA) and respects the GFA there’s nothing stopping the EU from returning to the negotiations table and removing all sticking points that Parliment has a problem with.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politic ... 7?mode=amp
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 11, 2019 5:11 pm

We'll just ignore the fact that proposals were rejected since they were unfeasible and contradictory to various laws and even themselves...
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 11, 2019 5:44 pm

I don't think many in the EU want the UK to stay in the political side of things, at least not a majority. Stay in a close relationship, "Brexit in name only", sure, because then EU countries wouldn't take an economic hit, so it's the best of both worlds. But at the end of the day the main road block is Northern Ireland, that was it from the start, and it will always be it.
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 11, 2019 11:03 pm

A101 wrote:
Now that a UK and Irish governments have signed an agreement that formally outlines the provisions of the Common Travel Area (CTA) and respects the GFA there’s nothing stopping the EU from returning to the negotiations table and removing all sticking points that Parliment has a problem with.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politic ... 7?mode=amp


a. Freedom of movement for the Irish is no problem I guess, that has nothing to do with taking back control? Which is kind of hilarious and hypocritical. But ok, it is for a good cause, so I'll give you this.

b. This agreement is still not a solution for a frictionless border, because goods still need to be checked and you still don't get that I guess.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 11, 2019 11:10 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
We'll just ignore the fact that proposals were rejected since they were unfeasible and contradictory to various laws and even themselves...


We will also just ignore the fact that the EU wanted a solution to the problem in Ireland, when UK did not know what the future trade relationship would be, that's called putting the cart before the horse.

The WA needed to be run concurrently with the future trade relationship, but in essence TM should not have invoked A50 until she had a clear direction what she wanted as a future trade relationship, but maybe the WA is what she wanted all along, remember we actually do not know what David Davies was advocating which lead to his resignation from the exit negotiations
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 11, 2019 11:16 pm

A101 wrote:
but in essence TM should not have invoked A50 until she had a clear direction what she wanted as a future trade relationship


That is quite sensibel from you, but this wasn't done and here we are and have to deal with it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 11, 2019 11:18 pm

Dutchy wrote:

a. Freedom of movement for the Irish is no problem I guess, that has nothing to do with taking back control? Which is kind of hilarious and hypocritical. But ok, it is for a good cause, so I'll give you this.


well I guess you don't understand that what the agreement basically is what's been in existence since 1922, you meaning less often repeated phrase of taking back control is meaningless

Dutchy wrote:
b. This agreement is still not a solution for a frictionless border, because goods still need to be checked and you still don't get that I guess.


And you still haven't worked out that the GFA is not a trade agreement, what's coming in or out on the island of Ireland will already be declared internal trade can be done electronically, its the EU side that has the majority problem of enforcing its standards inside the border area of the EU that has nothing to do with UK
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 11, 2019 11:29 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

a. Freedom of movement for the Irish is no problem I guess, that has nothing to do with taking back control? Which is kind of hilarious and hypocritical. But ok, it is for a good cause, so I'll give you this.


well I guess you don't understand that what the agreement basically is what's been in existence since 1922, you meaning less often repeated phrase of taking back control is meaningless


I agree taking back control is meaningless, but it is the catchphrase of the Brexiteers. The basic argument is that the Brexiteers want a stop to the freedom of movement for people and here you have an agreement which garantees the freedom of movement, you find no irony in this? Remarkable.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
b. This agreement is still not a solution for a frictionless border, because goods still need to be checked and you still don't get that I guess.


And you still haven't worked out that the GFA is not a trade agreement, what's coming in or out on the island of Ireland will already be declared internal trade can be done electronically, its the EU side that has the majority problem of enforcing its standards inside the border area of the EU that has nothing to do with UK


You still have not worked out what an open border means? Electronic solution still hasn't serviced after all these years. Let me repeat myself yet again: if Northern Ireland doesn't want the same standards as the EU, there will be border controls. The EU will not leave a big hole in controlling its borders and controlling what is imported in our common market.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 1:16 am

Dutchy wrote:

I agree taking back control is meaningless, but it is the catchphrase of the Brexiteers. The basic argument is that the Brexiteers want a stop to the freedom of movement for people and here you have an agreement which garantees the freedom of movement, you find no irony in this? Remarkable.


No, we want to stop people from freedom of movement to control our borders for immigration/work purposes, we are quite happy for people to visit and apply for working visa, freedom of movement and ones control of borders to whom we let in and under what circumstances are quite different.



Dutchy wrote:

You still have not worked out what an open border means? Electronic solution still hasn't serviced after all these years. Let me repeat myself yet again: if Northern Ireland doesn't want the same standards as the EU, there will be border controls. The EU will not leave a big hole in controlling its borders and controlling what is imported in our common market.


And I will say it again Customs control will not stop Irish citizens from free movement across the border.
Goods coming or going from the Island will already gone thru controls at ports(sea/air) trade internally can be completed electronically as it is a know entity within the island, that both sides can have there own choice on quarantine controls, it can either build a border post or inspect at receiving customer own premises or self regulate.

And it wont be the UK who is stopping free movement for the Irish.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 9468
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 7:21 am

A101 wrote:
No, we want to stop people from freedom of movement to control our borders for immigration/work purposes, we are quite happy for people to visit and apply for working visa, freedom of movement and ones control of borders to whom we let in and under what circumstances are quite different.


From your article:

“Our message to Irish citizens in the UK is that your rights will not change. You will still be able to move freely between Ireland, the UK and the islands.

“You will still be able to work, study, draw your pension and access social security and public services in the UK. Above all, you will be welcome. And we welcome the similar commitment the Government of Ireland makes to British citizens in Ireland,” Mr Lidington said.


So you are wrong. The Irish will not need to apply for a working visa, they will be able to work within the UK as they please. This is exactly what the Brexiteers are against. So you, as a Brexiteer, should be against the agreement, but here you are defending it. Oh, you love the EU in a smal part of your heart, but no worries, it is ok, we can see your real heart shining though.

A101 wrote:
And I will say it again Customs control will not stop Irish citizens from free movement across the border.
Goods coming or going from the Island will already gone thru controls at ports(sea/air) trade internally can be completed electronically as it is a know entity within the island, that both sides can have there own choice on quarantine controls, it can either build a border post or inspect at receiving customer own premises or self regulate.

And it wont be the UK who is stopping free movement for the Irish.


You say electronically, yet we have seen no evidence that this would actually work. So this is another unicorn. Or everything is indeed checked that comes into the Irish island and the rogatory regime will be that of the EU, so effectively have a border within the UK. You have to come to grips with that, all other proposed solutions are fairytales. Or the Irish must step out of the common market, which they wont.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 993
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 8:59 am

Dutchy wrote:
So you are wrong. The Irish will not need to apply for a working visa, they will be able to work within the UK as they please. This is exactly what the Brexiteers are against. So you, as a Brexiteer, should be against the agreement, but here you are defending it. Oh, you love the EU in a smal part of your heart, but no worries, it is ok, we can see your real heart shining though.


Well well well, twist the facts mate. Do you actually remember what I have said many times before about this very subject and the history between the UK/ROI in regards to the free movement across the border since 1922. You have a memory like a ˈsieve, so you might want to come down from that ivory tower.


Dutchy wrote:
You say electronically, yet we have seen no evidence that this would actually work. So this is another unicorn. Or everything is indeed checked that comes into the Irish island and the rogatory regime will be that of the EU, so effectively have a border within the UK. You have to come to grips with that, all other proposed solutions are fairytales. Or the Irish must step out of the common market, which they wont.


And here I thought we were still in the dark ages, reporting trade via road internally within Ireland would not be overly different than reporting trade within the EU only difference is either WTO tariffs apply or whatever future trade agreement is reached between EU/UK it’s not as complicated as you make out

The EU has gone paperless,


Paper format customs procedures have been gradually replaced by electronic ones over the last two decades with a view to enhancing competitiveness of the European businesses and improving simultaneously safety and security checks.

The first step to the EU-wide electronic exchange of customs declarations was established with New Computerised Transit System (NCTS) started in 1997.

A few years later the e-Customs Decision set the basic framework for creating a paperless environment for customs and trade, laying down the objectives, as well as the structure, means and major deadlines.

The Union Customs Code (UCC) adoption and application as of 1 May 2016 completes the shift by customs to a paperless and fully electronic and interoperable environment



And the UK, updating the system has been in place for 25years was put in place before the EU referendum

HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) will begin a phased launch of the Customs Declaration Service (CDS) in August 2018. CDS will replace the existing Customs Handling of Import and Export Freight (CHIEF) system, with all declarations taking place on CDS from early 2019.

CHIEF currently processes declarations to facilitate the international movement of goods between the UK and non-EU countries. CHIEF will continue to run for a time to aid the transition to CDS.

Why CDS is replacing CHIEF
CHIEF is one of the world’s largest and most sophisticated electronic services for managing customs declaration processes, but it’s nearly 25 years old and can’t be easily adapted to new requirements.

The decision to replace CHIEF with CDS was made before the EU referendum, however CDS will be scaled to handle any potential increases in the volume of declarations that may result from the UK’s exit from the EU.

How this will affect importers and exporters
If a trader imports or exports goods outside the EU, they or their agent will be currently using CHIEF to:

process declarations for goods entering and leaving the UK or EU through ports and airports
calculate and pay the correct duty and taxes
complete customs information electronically
They will still be able to do these things on CDS, but there will be differences:

CDS will be accessed on GOV.UK using a Government Gateway account – if traders use a customs declaration software package, they will need to follow the instructions and documentation from their supplier
CDS will offer several new and existing services in one place - for example, traders will be able to view previous import and export data on pre-defined reports, check the tariff, apply for new authorisations and simplifications, and check their duty deferment statement
online help will include self-service tools, guides and checklists
Some additional information will be required for declarations in order to align with the World Customs Organisation Kyoto Convention, currently being implemented in the UK through the Union Customs Code (UCC):

an audit trail of previous document IDs
additional party types, such as the buyer and seller
possible additional commercial references or tracking numbers
levelling – change between ‘Header’ and ‘Item’ for some data items
To align UK customs data with international standards, there will also be changes to:

location of goods identification (based on UNLOCODE)
the warehouse type code list
item tax lines, including method of payment codes
unit of quantity codes (ISO)
the way customs procedures are quoted
the number of items on a declaration – CDS will allow a maximum of 999 items on a customs declaration instead of the current 99 items on CHIEF
Alerting importers and exporters about using CDS
HMRC is currently building and testing CDS with industry, software providers and Community System Providers (CSPs). CSPs operate computerised inventory systems that control the physical movement of import and export freight at UK ports and airports.

CDS will be phased in between August and early 2019, with CHIEF continuing to run during this time to aid the transition. Importers, exporters or their agents will be informed by their software provider when they need to provide the additional information in order to start making declarations on CDS.




And a suggestion which I have linked before, if the EU wants to put in a quarantine checkpoint they could do something similar to the East/West movement of goods in Australia.

https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/importing-a ... heckpoints
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9468
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 9:07 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So you are wrong. The Irish will not need to apply for a working visa, they will be able to work within the UK as they please. This is exactly what the Brexiteers are against. So you, as a Brexiteer, should be against the agreement, but here you are defending it. Oh, you love the EU in a smal part of your heart, but no worries, it is ok, we can see your real heart shining though.


Well well well, twist the facts mate. Do you actually remember what I have said many times before about this very subject and the history between the UK/ROI in regards to the free movement across the border since 1922. You have a memory like a ˈsieve, so you might want to come down from that ivory tower.


Dutchy wrote:
You say electronically, yet we have seen no evidence that this would actually work. So this is another unicorn. Or everything is indeed checked that comes into the Irish island and the rogatory regime will be that of the EU, so effectively have a border within the UK. You have to come to grips with that, all other proposed solutions are fairytales. Or the Irish must step out of the common market, which they wont.


And here I thought we were still in the dark ages, reporting trade via road internally within Ireland would not be overly different than reporting trade within the EU only difference is either WTO tariffs apply or whatever future trade agreement is reached between EU/UK it’s not as complicated as you make out

The EU has gone paperless,


Paper format customs procedures have been gradually replaced by electronic ones over the last two decades with a view to enhancing competitiveness of the European businesses and improving simultaneously safety and security checks.

The first step to the EU-wide electronic exchange of customs declarations was established with New Computerised Transit System (NCTS) started in 1997.

A few years later the e-Customs Decision set the basic framework for creating a paperless environment for customs and trade, laying down the objectives, as well as the structure, means and major deadlines.

The Union Customs Code (UCC) adoption and application as of 1 May 2016 completes the shift by customs to a paperless and fully electronic and interoperable environment



And the UK, updating the system has been in place for 25years was put in place before the EU referendum

HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) will begin a phased launch of the Customs Declaration Service (CDS) in August 2018. CDS will replace the existing Customs Handling of Import and Export Freight (CHIEF) system, with all declarations taking place on CDS from early 2019.

CHIEF currently processes declarations to facilitate the international movement of goods between the UK and non-EU countries. CHIEF will continue to run for a time to aid the transition to CDS.

Why CDS is replacing CHIEF
CHIEF is one of the world’s largest and most sophisticated electronic services for managing customs declaration processes, but it’s nearly 25 years old and can’t be easily adapted to new requirements.

The decision to replace CHIEF with CDS was made before the EU referendum, however CDS will be scaled to handle any potential increases in the volume of declarations that may result from the UK’s exit from the EU.

How this will affect importers and exporters
If a trader imports or exports goods outside the EU, they or their agent will be currently using CHIEF to:

process declarations for goods entering and leaving the UK or EU through ports and airports
calculate and pay the correct duty and taxes
complete customs information electronically
They will still be able to do these things on CDS, but there will be differences:

CDS will be accessed on GOV.UK using a Government Gateway account – if traders use a customs declaration software package, they will need to follow the instructions and documentation from their supplier
CDS will offer several new and existing services in one place - for example, traders will be able to view previous import and export data on pre-defined reports, check the tariff, apply for new authorisations and simplifications, and check their duty deferment statement
online help will include self-service tools, guides and checklists
Some additional information will be required for declarations in order to align with the World Customs Organisation Kyoto Convention, currently being implemented in the UK through the Union Customs Code (UCC):

an audit trail of previous document IDs
additional party types, such as the buyer and seller
possible additional commercial references or tracking numbers
levelling – change between ‘Header’ and ‘Item’ for some data items
To align UK customs data with international standards, there will also be changes to:

location of goods identification (based on UNLOCODE)
the warehouse type code list
item tax lines, including method of payment codes
unit of quantity codes (ISO)
the way customs procedures are quoted
the number of items on a declaration – CDS will allow a maximum of 999 items on a customs declaration instead of the current 99 items on CHIEF
Alerting importers and exporters about using CDS
HMRC is currently building and testing CDS with industry, software providers and Community System Providers (CSPs). CSPs operate computerised inventory systems that control the physical movement of import and export freight at UK ports and airports.

CDS will be phased in between August and early 2019, with CHIEF continuing to run during this time to aid the transition. Importers, exporters or their agents will be informed by their software provider when they need to provide the additional information in order to start making declarations on CDS.




And a suggestion which I have linked before, if the EU wants to put in a quarantine checkpoint they could do something similar to the East/West movement of goods in Australia.

https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/importing-a ... heckpoints


Ok, we have established that freedom of movement for the Irish is fine with you, the rest of the EU and the world no.
Paperless isn't the same as no border controls. No lorry can be checked just electronically, there needs to be a visual check.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 993
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 9:59 am

Dutchy wrote:

Ok, we have established that freedom of movement for the Irish is fine with you, the rest of the EU and the world no.



I thought that was established a long time ago, it’s called border controls

Dutchy wrote:
Paperless isn't the same as no border controls. No lorry can be checked just electronically, there needs to be a visual check.



Which can be done and normally done via a pre-shipment inspection via a competent authority, or can also be inspected on arrival or by Quarantine border checkpoints if so desired, it’s actully employing more people if you went that way, whatever floats your boat.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 12:17 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
No, we want to stop people from freedom of movement to control our borders for immigration/work purposes, we are quite happy for people to visit and apply for working visa, freedom of movement and ones control of borders to whom we let in and under what circumstances are quite different.


From your article:

“Our message to Irish citizens in the UK is that your rights will not change. You will still be able to move freely between Ireland, the UK and the islands.

“You will still be able to work, study, draw your pension and access social security and public services in the UK. Above all, you will be welcome. And we welcome the similar commitment the Government of Ireland makes to British citizens in Ireland,” Mr Lidington said.


So you are wrong. The Irish will not need to apply for a working visa, they will be able to work within the UK as they please. This is exactly what the Brexiteers are against. So you, as a Brexiteer, should be against the agreement, but here you are defending it. Oh, you love the EU in a smal part of your heart, but no worries, it is ok, we can see your real heart shining though.

A101 wrote:
And I will say it again Customs control will not stop Irish citizens from free movement across the border.
Goods coming or going from the Island will already gone thru controls at ports(sea/air) trade internally can be completed electronically as it is a know entity within the island, that both sides can have there own choice on quarantine controls, it can either build a border post or inspect at receiving customer own premises or self regulate.

And it wont be the UK who is stopping free movement for the Irish.


You say electronically, yet we have seen no evidence that this would actually work. So this is another unicorn. Or everything is indeed checked that comes into the Irish island and the rogatory regime will be that of the EU, so effectively have a border within the UK. You have to come to grips with that, all other proposed solutions are fairytales. Or the Irish must step out of the common market, which they wont.


Can you please provide evidence that those supporting Brexit would specifically exclude Irish people from living and working in the UK after we’ve left the EU.

An objective source please.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 1:15 pm

I watched a couple videos about British immigrants in Spain (they call themselves expats, but to me that applies to working individuals, not retirees), they're very worried, even though some of them voted for Brexit ! There was one who defended her vote with the usual suspects : "they come to our country and get free money and don't integrate". Does she get free healthcare in Spain ? Of course she does. Does she speak Spanish ? Of course she doesn't !

The level of hypocrisy is out of this world.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 9468
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 3:20 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Ok, we have established that freedom of movement for the Irish is fine with you, the rest of the EU and the world no.



I thought that was established a long time ago, it’s called border controls


Yes, total freedom of movement for the Irish, the same as they have now when the UK is a member of the EU. We have established that. And we have established that freedom of movement was one of the main reasons for Brexit. Thus we can all see the hypocrisy here.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Paperless isn't the same as no border controls. No lorry can be checked just electronically, there needs to be a visual check.



Which can be done and normally done via a pre-shipment inspection via a competent authority, or can also be inspected on arrival or by Quarantine border checkpoints if so desired, it’s actully employing more people if you went that way, whatever floats your boat.


Never, do you actually know what a border looks like between a EU member and a non-EU member? You can do all sorts of things, but in the end there need to be a visual check to check what is actually in the lorry and that can't be done electronically. You still miss that fact.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9468
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 3:23 pm

Aesma wrote:
I watched a couple videos about British immigrants in Spain (they call themselves expats, but to me that applies to working individuals, not retirees), they're very worried, even though some of them voted for Brexit ! There was one who defended her vote with the usual suspects : "they come to our country and get free money and don't integrate". Does she get free healthcare in Spain ? Of course she does. Does she speak Spanish ? Of course she doesn't !

The level of hypocrisy is out of this world.


Wouldn't call them expats anymore, just Europeans living in an European country. But indeed hypocrisy is out of this world. Totally centered around their own person.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 3:26 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
No, we want to stop people from freedom of movement to control our borders for immigration/work purposes, we are quite happy for people to visit and apply for working visa, freedom of movement and ones control of borders to whom we let in and under what circumstances are quite different.


From your article:

“Our message to Irish citizens in the UK is that your rights will not change. You will still be able to move freely between Ireland, the UK and the islands.

“You will still be able to work, study, draw your pension and access social security and public services in the UK. Above all, you will be welcome. And we welcome the similar commitment the Government of Ireland makes to British citizens in Ireland,” Mr Lidington said.


So you are wrong. The Irish will not need to apply for a working visa, they will be able to work within the UK as they please. This is exactly what the Brexiteers are against. So you, as a Brexiteer, should be against the agreement, but here you are defending it. Oh, you love the EU in a smal part of your heart, but no worries, it is ok, we can see your real heart shining though.

A101 wrote:
And I will say it again Customs control will not stop Irish citizens from free movement across the border.
Goods coming or going from the Island will already gone thru controls at ports(sea/air) trade internally can be completed electronically as it is a know entity within the island, that both sides can have there own choice on quarantine controls, it can either build a border post or inspect at receiving customer own premises or self regulate.

And it wont be the UK who is stopping free movement for the Irish.


You say electronically, yet we have seen no evidence that this would actually work. So this is another unicorn. Or everything is indeed checked that comes into the Irish island and the rogatory regime will be that of the EU, so effectively have a border within the UK. You have to come to grips with that, all other proposed solutions are fairytales. Or the Irish must step out of the common market, which they wont.


Can you please provide evidence that those supporting Brexit would specifically exclude Irish people from living and working in the UK after we’ve left the EU.

An objective source please.


Do you provide please evidence that those supporting Brexit would specifically exclude the Irish from the: "we don't want any foreign people just moving to the UK" doctrine.

An objective source please.

You want to make an exception for one of the main arguments for Brexit, including your main argument. But I guess you are ok with this exception, but then again it is a slippery slope, why the Irish and not the Swedish or people form Luxemburg.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 4:31 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Yes, total freedom of movement for the Irish, the same as they have now when the UK is a member of the EU. We have established that. And we have established that freedom of movement was one of the main reasons for Brexit. Thus we can all see the hypocrisy here.


Well if think it’s hypocritical for the continuation of an agreement with the Irish that’s has been in existence since 1922, you keep thinking that. But if you prefer us to break that long standing agreement and the GFA, whose being a hypocrite

Dutchy wrote:
Never, do you actually know what a border looks like between a EU member and a non-EU member? You can do all sorts of things, but in the end there need to be a visual check to check what is actually in the lorry and that can't be done electronically. You still miss that fact.


You do realise that we are talking about an island which it major imports export are moved by sea/air movements, I imagine they would have a pretty good idea what coming and going, if the EU requires vehicles to be checked in transit they can they can do so on their side of the border. Your talking like this has never been done before and is completely new, Irish citizen have freedom of movement up until joining the EEC Customs check points have been the norm.

Your looking for a problem to ensure division on the island
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 4:57 pm

A101 wrote:
Which can be done and normally done via a pre-shipment inspection via a competent authority, or can also be inspected on arrival or by Quarantine border checkpoints if so desired, it’s actully employing more people if you went that way, whatever floats your boat.


You're just moving the queues to a different place then. Who's paying for those inspections, btw? How are you supposed to enforce that any given transport has been pre-cleared or not? How do you ensure that whatever is on that particular lorry is the same thing that's been pre-checked?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 5:08 pm

A101 wrote:
Well if think it’s hypocritical for the continuation of an agreement with the Irish that’s has been in existence since 1922, you keep thinking that. But if you prefer us to break that long standing agreement and the GFA, whose being a hypocrite

Keeping the 1922 agreement and the 1998 is ok, but an agreement form 1973 can be broken with ease. Whatever suits your narratieve I guess.
The truth is that the UK wants to break the agreement, the UK created the problem. Stay in the EU and there is no problem.

A101 wrote:
You do realise that we are talking about an island which it major imports export are moved by sea/air movements, I imagine they would have a pretty good idea what coming and going, if the EU requires vehicles to be checked in transit they can they can do so on their side of the border. Your talking like this has never been done before and is completely new, Irish citizen have freedom of movement up until joining the EEC Customs check points have been the norm.


You do realize that Ireland isn't in the UK anymore? It has been so for a while now. So we are talking about an island which will be divided by the UK once again.

A101 wrote:
Your looking for a problem to ensure division on the island


No, you try to shift blame to the EU for a problem the UK has creating.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 5:11 pm

I would like that Farage party wins the Eu elections in the UK. That should definitely kills the last support the uk has left.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 5:35 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

From your article:



So you are wrong. The Irish will not need to apply for a working visa, they will be able to work within the UK as they please. This is exactly what the Brexiteers are against. So you, as a Brexiteer, should be against the agreement, but here you are defending it. Oh, you love the EU in a smal part of your heart, but no worries, it is ok, we can see your real heart shining though.



You say electronically, yet we have seen no evidence that this would actually work. So this is another unicorn. Or everything is indeed checked that comes into the Irish island and the rogatory regime will be that of the EU, so effectively have a border within the UK. You have to come to grips with that, all other proposed solutions are fairytales. Or the Irish must step out of the common market, which they wont.


Can you please provide evidence that those supporting Brexit would specifically exclude Irish people from living and working in the UK after we’ve left the EU.

An objective source please.


Do you provide please evidence that those supporting Brexit would specifically exclude the Irish from the: "we don't want any foreign people just moving to the UK" doctrine.

An objective source please.

You want to make an exception for one of the main arguments for Brexit, including your main argument. But I guess you are ok with this exception, but then again it is a slippery slope, why the Irish and not the Swedish or people form Luxemburg.


I don’t need to. There is no such claims. Irish people have migrated to the UK for centuries and there is nothing to suggest that would not continue.

I asked you a question for a statement you made that had no truth whatsoever.

Another anti Brexit assumption.

Can you please retract your false claim.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 5:58 pm

JJJ wrote:

You're just moving the queues to a different place then. Who's paying for those inspections, btw? How are you supposed to enforce that any given transport has been pre-cleared or not? How do you ensure that whatever is on that particular lorry is the same thing that's been pre-checked?


I’m not trying to shift anything, customs and border control checks happen at both air/sea ports, how do you think all that is done now by magic

https://ec.europa.eu/food/animals/traces_en
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 6:09 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Can you please provide evidence that those supporting Brexit would specifically exclude Irish people from living and working in the UK after we’ve left the EU.

An objective source please.


Do you provide please evidence that those supporting Brexit would specifically exclude the Irish from the: "we don't want any foreign people just moving to the UK" doctrine.

An objective source please.

You want to make an exception for one of the main arguments for Brexit, including your main argument. But I guess you are ok with this exception, but then again it is a slippery slope, why the Irish and not the Swedish or people form Luxemburg.


I don’t need to. There is no such claims. Irish people have migrated to the UK for centuries and there is nothing to suggest that would not continue.

I asked you a question for a statement you made that had no truth whatsoever.

Another anti Brexit assumption.

Can you please retract your false claim.



? Huh, which false claim?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 6:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Do you provide please evidence that those supporting Brexit would specifically exclude the Irish from the: "we don't want any foreign people just moving to the UK" doctrine.

An objective source please.

You want to make an exception for one of the main arguments for Brexit, including your main argument. But I guess you are ok with this exception, but then again it is a slippery slope, why the Irish and not the Swedish or people form Luxemburg.


I don’t need to. There is no such claims. Irish people have migrated to the UK for centuries and there is nothing to suggest that would not continue.

I asked you a question for a statement you made that had no truth whatsoever.

Another anti Brexit assumption.

Can you please retract your false claim.



? Huh, which false claim?


That Irish nationals would face the same restrictions on visiting and employment in the UK, post Brexit.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 6:27 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

I don’t need to. There is no such claims. Irish people have migrated to the UK for centuries and there is nothing to suggest that would not continue.

I asked you a question for a statement you made that had no truth whatsoever.

Another anti Brexit assumption.

Can you please retract your false claim.



? Huh, which false claim?


That Irish nationals would face the same restrictions on visiting and employment in the UK, post Brexit.


why did they drew up a new agreement, if it wasn't necessary?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
JJJ
Posts: 3231
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 12, 2019 6:31 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

You're just moving the queues to a different place then. Who's paying for those inspections, btw? How are you supposed to enforce that any given transport has been pre-cleared or not? How do you ensure that whatever is on that particular lorry is the same thing that's been pre-checked?


I’m not trying to shift anything, customs and border control checks happen at both air/sea ports, how do you think all that is done now by magic

https://ec.europa.eu/food/animals/traces_en


So we can agree then that the border can be paperless but still essentially a border? Dutchy's quote still stands:

"Paperless isn't the same as no border controls. No lorry can be checked just electronically, there needs to be a visual check."

The magic not-really-a-border some in the Brexit camp propose doesn't exist, and cannot conceivably exist.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 9468
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon May 13, 2019 8:12 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Ending freedom of movement was the primary factor in my decision to vote leave.


not a reason? You are fine with that?


Factor/reason. Same difference.


Ok, but still you are in favor for having the Irish having this? What is the difference between the Irish and the Finnish?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
KLDC10
Posts: 1406
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon May 13, 2019 3:21 pm

The Brexit Party is polling higher than the Conservatives and Labour combined ahead of next week's European Elections. Farage has my vote!

https://news.sky.com/story/nigel-farage ... s-11717553
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