Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 9:26 am

Francoflier wrote:
She finally threw in the towel. It took her a lot longer than I thought to realize that her job was impossible to complete...

Let's see who steps up to the gallow plate.


If it's Boris the UK is well and truly screwed. Not just on Brexit.
 
KLDC10
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 9:49 am

LJ wrote:
May is gone as of June 7th. Will be interesting who will be the next PM

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48395905


The EU should have listened to Macron when he sought to get the UK out as quickly as possible. I have made my pro-Brexit stance clear, but I also strive to see the situation from a European Perspective. An extension until 31. October has been granted, but this leadership contest all but rules out the possibility of any political movement in the United Kingdom until a new Prime Minister is selected by the Conservative Party. After that? No candidate would tie themselves to May's Treaty after it sunk her, so what happens? Either they try to renegotiate, leading to another extension, or else they decide to go in hard for No Deal. Bad for the EU either way.
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Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 9:53 am

She can thanks Nick Timothy for her totally inept strategy.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 9:57 am

A101 wrote:
I dip my lid to you kind sir, he is an example to what the younger generation should be inspiring to be, hope they catch the mug who did this.


A 81 year old whom wants his country to go down the drain because of a fantasy dream. It fits the electorate though, the older the voter the more likely he votes Brexit. The point being, they have less to loose because they will not live as long as younger people whom have their lives ahead of them.

Of course, if you wanted to give a milkshake to this man, it would have been more polite to have it in a cup.

Brexit has split the country in two and the headed debate and the extreme position the Brexit party holds (Nigel Farage campaign for a Brexit with a deal, Norway and Switzerland model was frequently named as an example). So Nigel Farage actually radicalized in his point of view and the people following him did the same. No one advocated a no deal Brexit, a Brexit on WTO terms, no one and now everyone is yelling: leave means leave. The most extreme position to take in this debate.

A good example of how a radicalization process works, not just with Brexit, but the general principle can be seen everywhere, from the extreme right, Islam, Christianity, abortion everywhere.

It might be an uncomfortable thought for our Brexitremist, but here you go, you truly are radicalized. I think you will argue against this because you do not see yourself as radicalized. But if you take a step back and think about what you thought about Brexit 3 years ago and now, you mind find that there is quite a bit of development in your train of thought.
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 10:03 am

LJ wrote:
May is gone as of June 7th. Will be interesting who will be the next PM

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48395905


Nobody was happy with here, so good to see that she will be out of office. Let Boris Johnson take control of the party, he advocated Brexit and is advocating a hard Brexit, let's see if he can master this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 10:07 am

I really hope that the next UK PM to be a die hard brexiter. Negotiations will be so easy ....
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 10:07 am

KLDC10 wrote:
LJ wrote:
May is gone as of June 7th. Will be interesting who will be the next PM

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48395905


The EU should have listened to Macron when he sought to get the UK out as quickly as possible. I have made my pro-Brexit stance clear, but I also strive to see the situation from a European Perspective. An extension until 31. October has been granted, but this leadership contest all but rules out the possibility of any political movement in the United Kingdom until a new Prime Minister is selected by the Conservative Party. After that? No candidate would tie themselves to May's Treaty after it sunk her, so what happens? Either they try to renegotiate, leading to another extension, or else they decide to go in hard for No Deal. Bad for the EU either way.


True, or they will shift their ground and will grand another referendum or will stop the article 50 process altogether. You seem to forget those two options. The WA is important for the EU, because of the principles involved which are the foundation of the EU. The withdraw agreement is kind of set in stone for the EU, not much room to negotiate. If you truly want to look at it from an EU perspective, this is it. Would be very nice to see an orderly Brexit, but far more important are the fundamental principles on which the EU is based. Those are far more important and they will not be torn down, just because the UK wants to leave.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 10:14 am

May caved so soon that is not yet time for the next part.
But I had already the title, from a famous movie: They kill horses, don't they? I prefer the french title: On achève bien les chevaux, that show more for me the despair side:)
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 10:14 am

Olddog wrote:
I really hope that the next UK PM to be a die hard brexiter. Negotiations will be so easy ....
[quote="KLDC10"]

You are joking here, but I actually believe it is time for a Brexitremist to be at the helm. Then everyone can actually see what Rees-Mogg or Johnson actually can accomplish given the setting. Strategically, they will be able to make the necessary concessions far more easily than a closet remainder. A bit like Nixon was able to go to China because he was known as a hardliner against China, so no suspicion there.
We'll see whom is going to get the leadership. My predictions, whomever gets it will get a plan adopted to move forward, including a roadmap and than he or she will be gone as well or there might even be a snap election.
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KLDC10
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 10:18 am

Dutchy wrote:
True, or they will shift their ground and will grand another referendum or will stop the article 50 process altogether. You seem to forget those two options. The WA is important for the EU, because of the principles involved which are the foundation of the EU. The withdraw agreement is kind of set in stone for the EU, not much room to negotiate. If you truly want to look at it from an EU perspective, this is it. Would be very nice to see an orderly Brexit, but far more important are the fundamental principles on which the EU is based. Those are far more important and they will not be torn down, just because the UK wants to leave.


I don't think your first two suggestions are all that likely, because the task for the next Conservative Leader and Prime Minister is not just to deliver some kind of Brexit, but also to save the Conservative Party. There's quite a real risk that the party will end up being supplanted, or at the very least kept from power, by Farage's Brexit Party. So for the next Prime Minister, a hard Brexit is the only way to keep their Conservative base intact.

Yes, I understand that it is set in stone from the EU's point of view, although to be fair, AKK did suggest that nobody would really be opposed to some intensive discussions over the Backstop. Macron evidently also understood the risks of granting an extension, given that the Treaty is unacceptable to Parliament and the EU is reluctant to renegotiate. I'm sorry, but the European Council was wrong to sideline his concerns.

Moreover, this assessment from 'The Institute for Government' suggests that a Prime Minister intent on No Deal (which May evidently was not) would be difficult to stop: https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... pped-mps-0
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ChrisKen
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 10:25 am

Olddog wrote:
I really hope that the next UK PM to be a die hard brexiter. Negotiations will be so easy ....

There won't be any, the EU holds the cards in deals with the EU. Your brextremist fantasy can yell, stamp feet all it wants to, the fact is, you won't get a better deal than WE ALREADY HAVE as a member and sticking two fingers up and going for a WTO only no deal exit is utter lunacy whichever way you cut it.

Besides, the die hard brexiteers won't been seen anywhere near the race. They know their lies simply can't be delivered. They'll stick to safely sniping from the sidelines in the easy roles of opposing and pontification.
Last edited by ChrisKen on Fri May 24, 2019 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 10:31 am

Olddog wrote:
May caved so soon that is not yet time for the next part.
But I had already the title, from a famous movie: They kill horses, don't they? I prefer the french title: On achève bien les chevaux, that show more for me the despair side:)



Sorry man, time for Brexit part 7: Party games

(brilliant episode of yes, minister)
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 10:37 am

KLDC10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
True, or they will shift their ground and will grand another referendum or will stop the article 50 process altogether. You seem to forget those two options. The WA is important for the EU, because of the principles involved which are the foundation of the EU. The withdraw agreement is kind of set in stone for the EU, not much room to negotiate. If you truly want to look at it from an EU perspective, this is it. Would be very nice to see an orderly Brexit, but far more important are the fundamental principles on which the EU is based. Those are far more important and they will not be torn down, just because the UK wants to leave.


I don't think your first two suggestions are all that likely, because the task for the next Conservative Leader and Prime Minister is not just to deliver some kind of Brexit, but also to save the Conservative Party. There's quite a real risk that the party will end up being supplanted, or at the very least kept from power, by Farage's Brexit Party. So for the next Prime Minister, a hard Brexit is the only way to keep their Conservative base intact.

Yes, I understand that it is set in stone from the EU's point of view, although to be fair, AKK did suggest that nobody would really be opposed to some intensive discussions over the Backstop. Macron evidently also understood the risks of granting an extension, given that the Treaty is unacceptable to Parliament and the EU is reluctant to renegotiate. I'm sorry, but the European Council was wrong to sideline his concerns.

Moreover, this assessment from 'The Institute for Government' suggests that a Prime Minister intent on No Deal (which May evidently was not) would be difficult to stop: https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... pped-mps-0


You have to face the fact that no-matter what the next prime minister does, the Conservatives will have a really hard time to convince their electorate that they are fit for office. They made a mess of things which has cost the UK dearly. A WTO-brexit will be truly going into the abyss, this will not save the Conservative party at all. Clinton said it best in his campaign: it is the economy stupid.

As for the Backstop, if you want something different, then negotiate a different deal with all the parties involved in the Good Friday Agreement and make sure that their base is feeling comfortable with it in order not to go back into the period of the Troubles.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 10:45 am

Reinhardt wrote:
A101 wrote:
I dip my lid to you kind sir, he is an example to what the younger generation should be inspiring to be, hope they catch the mug who did this.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/0 ... n-wearing/

So do you find this amusing too scbriml?


For you Dutchy if you haven’ heard the expression before

Definition Of: Dip one's lid


1. raise one's hat; 2. pay honour to or congratulate (someone)


Of course it's appaling and shouldn't be happening.

On the other side of the coin compare the reactions to Farage's milkshake episode to the constant threats of violence (including murder), rape and general disgusting behavior of Brexiteers towards female MPs who are against Brexit. MPs have been egged for decades, it happened to Corbyn and Ed Milliand and they shrugged it off. That doesn't make it any more right, but the response to each act is telling.

This is was happens when verbal abuse, threats of violence primarily online, but also face to face to MPs becomes common place. People then move to the next level and next level. This constant upping of pretending MPs are subverting democracy by actually standing up for it, this constant bullying of the press, lies etc. It's straight out of the Trump and Bannon playbook.

It's dangerous and needs to stop.

No doubt those here of a Brexiteer persuasion willl jump in a start going on about how the left do this and that. I'm not left wing, I'm slap bang centre ground and both side are guilty of things, but what's happened over the last few years has been driven only from one side of the political landscape.



I actually agree with everything you have said, we can all agree to disagree but once you cross the line it’s hard to wind thing back, it might seem innocent enough but you would be surprised what damage an misplaced egg can do.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 10:46 am

A101 wrote:
So do you find this amusing too scbriml?


Good try, but I'm sure even you know there's a huge difference between 'egging' a public figure like Farage and a private citizen. :wave:

LJ wrote:
May is gone as of June 7th. Will be interesting who will be the next PM


Hardly a surprise. The list of potential candidates is 'interesting'. The rabid Brextreemists will be cheering, which is ironic because regardless of who is PM, nothing in Parliament will change. Labour will be ramping up the GE rhetoric.

KLDC10 wrote:
I don't think your first two suggestions are all that likely, because the task for the next Conservative Leader and Prime Minister is not just to deliver some kind of Brexit, but also to save the Conservative Party.


The Conservative party is beyond saving. Way beyond saving. They're the clown car at the political circus. They will get slaughtered at the next GE regardless of what the final Brexit outcome is. If it was a dog, you'd take it to the vet to put it out of its misery.
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sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 11:21 am

Olddog wrote:
She can thanks Nick Timothy for her totally inept strategy.


Indeed, his red lines have boxed her in from the start and ultimately cornered her.

Remember when she took over, Brexit was still an undefined something and for a summer long she kept it that way with her non-telling "Brexit means Brexit", until Nick Timothy decided never to waste a good opportunity to truly turn Britain into a Conservative wonderland by trying to wiggle the UK out of the European Economic Area and all the labour laws, consumer protections and environmental standards that go with it, too!

Nobody really voted to get poorer, to get less rights at work, to see unhealthy food in stores or to breathe polluted air, but hey, here was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to take control of all those rules and relax them a bit so there's far more money to be made with them in future, so why should a real Conservative hesitate for a second even, right? Let's just cover it up under a big red-white-blue sauce of sovereignty and surely people will all buy it, won't they?

From that moment on, TM committed not only to leaving the EU as she had always said, but also the SM and the CU, and so without giving it a second of a thought and blinded by the potential economic profits from being able to take a competitive advantage from ditching all hose labour laws, consumer protections and environmental standards, she also created a logistical nightmare for Dover, a political one for NI and the UK as a whole and an andministrative one for all integrated manufacturing in the UK.

Well, people didn't buy it at the GE, the Tories lost their (slim) majority and the rest is history as they say...

Well done!

And guess what? the next PM will probably keep on banging on the same door, even harder, thus decimating his party further.
Already now, TM has no majority for her kind of a deal, so I remain baffled how any successor from within the Tories can think he/she can ever command a majority for any sort of a deal which is likely going to be even more radical than hers just to fend of the pressure of the Brexit Pary on the Tories? Whoever the PM, the headcount in Westminster won't change, and I doubt it'll prove a fine idea to call a GE to break the deadlock... unless the Conservatives are happy to take up the role of the DUP in a Farage government or want to sit at the utmost far end of the opposition benches yelling at PM Corbyn announcing he has concluded a Norway+ agreement with the EU?

Most interesting to watch for sure! I agree with what is said above: the Tories are beyond saving: they have truly met their Waterloo, over Europe.
Last edited by sabenapilot on Fri May 24, 2019 11:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 11:23 am

I hope all you pro-Brexit people are happy now with May gone and whos know what kind of Trumpian, 'stable genius' you will have as your next PM.
It looks like new 'snap' elections with probably more radical right, pro-Brexit, anti-immigrant, candidates will gain seats in the Parliament. Probably the Pound will drop in value like a rock off a cliff, hurting the UK economy for all.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 11:26 am

ltbewr wrote:
It looks like new 'snap' elections with probably more radical right, pro-Brexit, anti-immigrant, candidates will gain seats in the Parliament.


Even the Tories aren't stupid enough to call an election. That would be political suicide.
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Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 11:38 am

I'm not celebrating May's resignation, simply because all it has done is plunged the country into even more uncertainty and, in my view, greatly heightened the risk of a no-deal Brexit. May's position was becoming more untenable for some time, but she is now "passing the buck" to somebody else.

I suppose it's too much to hope that May will revoke Article 50 as her final act before going to see the Queen at the Palace to formally resign?

sabenapilot wrote:
Olddog wrote:
She can thanks Nick Timothy for her totally inept strategy.


Indeed, his red lines have boxed her in from the start and ultimately cornered her.

Remember when she took over, Brexit was still an undefined something and for a summer long she kept it that way with her non-telling "Brexit means Brexit", until Nick Timothy decided never to waste a good opportunity to truly turn Britain into a Conservative wonderland by trying to wiggle the UK out of the European Economic Area and all the labour laws, consumer protections and environmental standards that goes with it, too!

From that moment on, TM committed not only to leaving the EU as she had Always said, but also the SM and the CU, and so without giving it a second of a thought and blinded by the potential economic profits from being able to take a competitive advantage from ditching all hose labour laws, consumer protections and environmental standards, she also created a logistical nightmare for Dover, a political one for NI and the UK as a whole and an andministrative one for all integrated manufacturing in the UK.

Well done!

And guess what? the next PM will probably keep on banging on the same door, even harder, thus decimating his party further.
Already now, TM has no majority for her kind of a deal, so I remain baffled how any successor from within the Tories can think he/she can ever command a majority for any sort of a deal which is likely going to be even more radical than hers just to fend of the pressure of the Brexit Pary on the Tories?

Most interesting to watch for sure!


Calling a General Election 2 years ago was another act of making a rod for her own back, particularly when her campaign quickly unravelled into a shambles and scared people off. May might have just succeeded in getting the WA through Parliament if she still had the small majority she inherited from David Cameron (albeit with a high probability that she would have got the same levels of resistance from the usual suspects like Jacob Rees-Mogg), but since then she's also been forced to pander to the DUP. I suppose one thing May succeeded in doing in that election was clipping the wings of the SNP and gaining seats in Scotland, but credit for that must go to Ruth Davidson for making the Tories electable and campaigning on a pro-union message in both the Scottish and UK elections.

scbriml wrote:
The Conservative party is beyond saving. Way beyond saving. They're the clown car at the political circus. They will get slaughtered at the next GE regardless of what the final Brexit outcome is. If it was a dog, you'd take it to the vet to put it out of its misery.


I also think Labour won't escape this unharmed at the next election when that time comes. We await the EP results, but if you look at the recent local elections and beyond the massive losses by the Tories, Labour failed to make gains and lost seats (albeit in double digits) and the reservations the wider electorate have about Corbyn remain unaddressed. I've long suspected Corbyn's strategy of being ambiguous and saying very little but enough to appeal to some won't work like it did in the 2017 GE if repeated again - people want clarity and viable proposals on the single biggest issue of the day, not wishy-washy commitments or the agenda being dominated by topics Corbyn is more interested in regardless of their appeal.

ltbewr wrote:
I hope all you pro-Brexit people are happy now with May gone and whos know what kind of Trumpian, 'stable genius' you will have as your next PM.
It looks like new 'snap' elections with probably more radical right, pro-Brexit, anti-immigrant, candidates will gain seats in the Parliament. Probably the Pound will drop in value like a rock off a cliff, hurting the UK economy for all.


Whoever comes in, if they have any sanity they will not be tempted to call a snap GE straight away. It will solve nothing and, as 2017 proved, could take their party even more backwards. The only vote I want to see anytime soon is a second referendum with the option to remain on the ballot paper - something May was offering to MP's just a few days before and will probably never get a chance to voted on in the House of Commons.

Some folk had better bloody well be careful what they wish for.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 11:53 am

I’ve met Mrs May on a number of occasions. Very pleasant. She took on a difficult job, not helped with calling the election. If she had not, we’d have been out the EU by now.

Will be interesting few days. The EU election results will give a firm indication on where the public stand on Brexit. Passionate remainers would vote Lib Dem, Green, SNP and PC.

Those still wanting to leave would have voted otherwise.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 11:56 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
I’ve met Mrs May on a number of occasions. Very pleasant. She took on a difficult job, not helped with calling the election. If she had not, we’d have been out the EU by now.

Will be interesting few days. The EU election results will give a firm indication on where the public stand on Brexit. Passionate remainers would vote Lib Dem, Green, SNP and PC.

Those still wanting to leave would have voted otherwise.


Haha, nice try my Brexitrimest friend, I would say, if you want a truly hard Brexit, one would vote the Brexit party, otherwise one would have quite a different take on things.
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 12:02 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
The EU election results will give a firm indication on where the public stand on Brexit.


The EU election results might give some indication, but that's all. It will likely be a very low turnout as usual with those more desperate for Brexit having significantly more incentive to vote.

Of course the EU results will have no effect on the situation in Parliament.
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sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 12:09 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
I’ve met Mrs May on a number of occasions. Very pleasant. She took on a difficult job, not helped with calling the election. If she had not, we’d have been out the EU by now.


Losing the GE made her job impossible indeed as compromising is not something the British political system is used to, but given her slim majority to start with and the rather radical form of Brexit she persued for ideological reasons, it's not a given she'd be able to command a majority around her anyway…

Let's not fool ourselves: not all Tory MPs are in favour of a hard brexit and not all Tories will vote for such an outcome, as has been demonstrated in the past already. No Tory PM can count on all of the Tory votes in Parliament on this issue and that's going to remain a massive problem for her successor too!

noviorbis77 wrote:
Will be interesting few days. The EU election results will give a firm indication on where the public stand on Brexit. Passionate remainers would vote Lib Dem, Green, SNP and PC. Those still wanting to leave would have voted otherwise.


I'd say those still wanting to passionately leave would surely have voted for the BP and them alone, just like you yourself admitted you did?
Those Brexiteers who are not so sure what to do anylonger and want to seek a sort of an elegant compromise with more time bought for it will have voted for either Tories or Labour, because that's essentially their plan, isn't it?

Will be interesting indeed and the result might very well show it's roughly:
1/3rd hard brexit,
1/3rd wishy-washy brexit (at best),
1/3rd no brexit;
then what? Going around in circles, right?

Bring it to a real people's vote, would be my advice, because for the past 3 years the main problem has been that everybody in politics is trying to figure out what exactly the people of the UK have voted for and is basically giving his own interpretation of it as it suits him best.
Let's go and ask them, maybe? Difficult to swallow at first maybe, but undisputably clear and much simpler in the end.
Last edited by sabenapilot on Fri May 24, 2019 12:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 12:11 pm

Prime minister Rutte on Twitter:

Just expressed my thanks and respect to Theresa May. The United Kingdom and the Netherlands are closely linked. The agreement reached between the EU and the United Kingdom for an ordered Brexit remains on the table.


Twitter in Dutch

Of course, Theresa May leaving will have no effect on the situation within the EU27.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 12:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
I’ve met Mrs May on a number of occasions. Very pleasant. She took on a difficult job, not helped with calling the election. If she had not, we’d have been out the EU by now.

Will be interesting few days. The EU election results will give a firm indication on where the public stand on Brexit. Passionate remainers would vote Lib Dem, Green, SNP and PC.

Those still wanting to leave would have voted otherwise.


Haha, nice try my Brexitrimest friend, I would say, if you want a truly hard Brexit, one would vote the Brexit party, otherwise one would have quite a different take on things.


Given both the Conservatives and Labour both are intent to deliver Brexit, then people know that a vote for them is not indication that they would deliver otherwise.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 12:30 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
I’ve met Mrs May on a number of occasions. Very pleasant. She took on a difficult job, not helped with calling the election. If she had not, we’d have been out the EU by now.

Will be interesting few days. The EU election results will give a firm indication on where the public stand on Brexit. Passionate remainers would vote Lib Dem, Green, SNP and PC.

Those still wanting to leave would have voted otherwise.


Haha, nice try my Brexitrimest friend, I would say, if you want a truly hard Brexit, one would vote the Brexit party, otherwise one would have quite a different take on things.


Given both the Conservatives and Labour both are intent to deliver Brexit, then people know that a vote for them is not indication that they would deliver otherwise.


They both oppose a hard Brexit as well, wouldn't you agree?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 799
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 12:35 pm

As has been said before. Parliament represents the referendum result with remarkable accuracy, no clear direction or majority one way or the other. Hence the current impasse.

Of course, your average brextremist will vehemently disagree.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3042
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 12:36 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
I’ve met Mrs May on a number of occasions. Very pleasant. She took on a difficult job, not helped with calling the election. If she had not, we’d have been out the EU by now.

Will be interesting few days. The EU election results will give a firm indication on where the public stand on Brexit. Passionate remainers would vote Lib Dem, Green, SNP and PC.

Those still wanting to leave would have voted otherwise.


Haha, nice try my Brexitrimest friend, I would say, if you want a truly hard Brexit, one would vote the Brexit party, otherwise one would have quite a different take on things.


Given both the Conservatives and Labour both are intent to deliver Brexit, then people know that a vote for them is not indication that they would deliver otherwise.


Given neighter of those 2 parties are able to deliver Brexit in any form or size remotely acceptable to Brexiteers (TM is resigning today over that little issue), I'd expect that if you passionately want to see Brexit happen, you wouldn't particularly consider voting for them…
just like you yourself admitted you didn't only for the second time in your life time.

But nice try to already group both of them together with the BP so as to claim there's still a majority for Brexit…
Fearing the BP is way way short of a majority, maybe? And the 'wrong' conclusions wil be drawn from it?
Like: Brexit is past it's high days already, it's (once again) just something which pre-occupies only die hard Tories and Farage followers and those 2 are simply communicating vessels? ;)
Last edited by sabenapilot on Fri May 24, 2019 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 12:37 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Haha, nice try my Brexitrimest friend, I would say, if you want a truly hard Brexit, one would vote the Brexit party, otherwise one would have quite a different take on things.


Given both the Conservatives and Labour both are intent to deliver Brexit, then people know that a vote for them is not indication that they would deliver otherwise.


They both oppose a hard Brexit as well, wouldn't you agree?


It depends who you talk to, but my gut feeling is that there are more Tories (but not everyone I should stress) who would prefer a hard Brexit than Labour.
 
KLDC10
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 12:40 pm

scbriml wrote:
The Conservative party is beyond saving. Way beyond saving. They're the clown car at the political circus. They will get slaughtered at the next GE regardless of what the final Brexit outcome is. If it was a dog, you'd take it to the vet to put it out of its misery.


While I largely agree with your assessment of the state of the party, I'm loathe to make such predictions about the next General Election given just how quickly things change in British Politics at the moment and how the Labour Party managed to defy such predictions of electoral pain at the last GE.
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 12:49 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
The Conservative party is beyond saving. Way beyond saving. They're the clown car at the political circus. They will get slaughtered at the next GE regardless of what the final Brexit outcome is. If it was a dog, you'd take it to the vet to put it out of its misery.


While I largely agree with your assessment of the state of the party, I'm loathe to make such predictions about the next General Election given just how quickly things change in British Politics at the moment and how the Labour Party managed to defy such predictions of electoral pain at the last GE.


I think the EU elections will give some indication about the health of both Conservative and Labor parties in the UK.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 12:50 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Haha, nice try my Brexitrimest friend, I would say, if you want a truly hard Brexit, one would vote the Brexit party, otherwise one would have quite a different take on things.


Given both the Conservatives and Labour both are intent to deliver Brexit, then people know that a vote for them is not indication that they would deliver otherwise.


Given neighter of those 2 parties are able to deliver Brexit in any form or size remotely acceptable to Brexiteers (TM is resigning today over that little issue), I'd expect that if you passionately want to see Brexit happen, you wouldn't particularly consider voting for them…
just like you yourself admitted you didn't only for the second time in your life time.

But nice try to already group both of them together with the BP so as to claim there's still a majority for Brexit…
Fearing the BP is way way short of a majority, maybe? And the 'wrong' conclusions wil be drawn from it?
Like: Brexit is past it's high days already, it's (once again) just something which pre-occupies only die hard Tories and Farage followers and those 2 are simply communicating vessels? ;)


No I voted for the Brexit Party yesterday. It was a good tactical choice to show those in Westminster that I (and many others) just want out of the wretched EU.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 1:12 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Given both the Conservatives and Labour both are intent to deliver Brexit, then people know that a vote for them is not indication that they would deliver otherwise.


Given neighter of those 2 parties are able to deliver Brexit in any form or size remotely acceptable to Brexiteers (TM is resigning today over that little issue), I'd expect that if you passionately want to see Brexit happen, you wouldn't particularly consider voting for them…
just like you yourself admitted you didn't only for the second time in your life time.

But nice try to already group both of them together with the BP so as to claim there's still a majority for Brexit…
Fearing the BP is way way short of a majority, maybe? And the 'wrong' conclusions wil be drawn from it?
Like: Brexit is past it's high days already, it's (once again) just something which pre-occupies only die hard Tories and Farage followers and those 2 are simply communicating vessels? ;)


No I voted for the Brexit Party yesterday. It was a good tactical choice to show those in Westminster that I (and many others) just want out of the wretched EU.


Crashing out of the EU you mean with all the consequences that it has for everyone.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3042
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 1:18 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Given both the Conservatives and Labour both are intent to deliver Brexit, then people know that a vote for them is not indication that they would deliver otherwise.


Given neighter of those 2 parties are able to deliver Brexit in any form or size remotely acceptable to Brexiteers (TM is resigning today over that little issue), I'd expect that if you passionately want to see Brexit happen, you wouldn't particularly consider voting for them…
just like you yourself admitted you didn't only for the second time in your life time.

But nice try to already group both of them together with the BP so as to claim there's still a majority for Brexit…
Fearing the BP is way way short of a majority, maybe? And the 'wrong' conclusions wil be drawn from it?
Like: Brexit is past it's high days already, it's (once again) just something which pre-occupies only die hard Tories and Farage followers and those 2 are simply communicating vessels? ;)


No I voted for the Brexit Party yesterday. It was a good tactical choice to show those in Westminster that I (and many others) just want out of the wretched EU.


Like i said: those who passionately want Brexit to happen still, will have voted for the BP.
Let's see how high they will have scored… and whether there's still any sort of a hint of a majority in favour of persuing Brexit at all cost in the UK, because remember the BP are the only ones who are still in favour of a no-deal Brexit: all the others have already said they want a deal first, or simply remain even!
 
marcelh
Posts: 675
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 1:56 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Given both the Conservatives and Labour both are intent to deliver Brexit, then people know that a vote for them is not indication that they would deliver otherwise.


Given neighter of those 2 parties are able to deliver Brexit in any form or size remotely acceptable to Brexiteers (TM is resigning today over that little issue), I'd expect that if you passionately want to see Brexit happen, you wouldn't particularly consider voting for them…
just like you yourself admitted you didn't only for the second time in your life time.

But nice try to already group both of them together with the BP so as to claim there's still a majority for Brexit…
Fearing the BP is way way short of a majority, maybe? And the 'wrong' conclusions wil be drawn from it?
Like: Brexit is past it's high days already, it's (once again) just something which pre-occupies only die hard Tories and Farage followers and those 2 are simply communicating vessels? ;)


No I voted for the Brexit Party yesterday. It was a good tactical choice to show those in Westminster that I (and many others) just want out of the wretched EU.

We should have dumped you already a few months ago and move on with solving the internal problems the EU faces.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 5:05 pm

marcelh wrote:
We should have dumped you already a few months ago and move on with solving the internal problems the EU faces.


Harsh, Marcel, I can understand the sentiment, though.

Luckily, most of what is going on in the EU is related to solving issue's, for the EU Brexit is less and less on the agenda. They are spectators on the theater we call the House of Commons.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 7:16 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
I’ve met Mrs May on a number of occasions. Very pleasant. She took on a difficult job, not helped with calling the election. If she had not, we’d have been out the EU by now.
.



While I agree she did take on a difficult job after Cameron cut and run, who would not lead for all the people even after stating that he would do it and respect the result.

As for TM I have no sympathy, in hindsight I’m actually glad she called the snap election as it might have meant we could have been stuck with that god awful WA. It was a shear act of lunacy to try and bring back the WA for a fourth time, the electorate knows were we are up to it’s either exit with no deal or revoke, but if the next PM is serious on delivering the result of the referenda then there is only one clear choice
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8313
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 7:32 pm

So, a lame duck Parliament until July, then summer recess.
Then Six weeks to Brexit date.

What a clusterfuck. It’s all about the party, and not about country.

Be gone UK. You deserve what you vote for.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
marcelh
Posts: 675
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 7:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:
marcelh wrote:
We should have dumped you already a few months ago and move on with solving the internal problems the EU faces.


Harsh, Marcel, I can understand the sentiment, though.

Luckily, most of what is going on in the EU is related to solving issue's, for the EU Brexit is less and less on the agenda. They are spectators on the theater we call the House of Commons.


Harsh? Yes. And I feel sorry for those who wants to remain. They have been screwed big time because narrow minded people who believe in fairytales voted for Brexit.
It’s time for the EU to move on WITHOUT the UK. Fortunately we don’t have to build a wall to keep them out....
 
A101
Posts: 1195
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 8:16 pm

sabenapilot wrote:

because remember the BP are the only ones who are still in favour of a no-deal Brexit: all the others have already said they want a deal first, or simply remain even!


The one thing they all have in common is they want to honour the result, each have there own idea on what that means, it was common knowledge at the referenda that leaving the EU meant leaving CU/SM and David Cameron reaffirmed that position in the final weeks leading up to the referenda

12TH JUNE, 2016 DAVID CAMERON, PM

“The British public would be voting if we leave would be to leave the EU and leave the single market. We’d then have to negotiate a trade deal from outside with the European Union...“

Parliment has to except the fact that no that there is no withdrawal agreement on the table it has been rejected, the EU has also said that there will be no renegotiation, so the only deal open to parliment is withdrawing on a no deal exit, it is clear as daylight what the options are.

The EU members have said they still want to trade that is not going to stop, short term trade will take place under WTO terms until an agreeable future trade agreement can be reached, we still have 5 mths to the new exit date all efforts should now focus on that date we leave the EU and transition to WTO with the EU and shore up Mutual Recognition Agreement with those outside of the EU that currently have FTA with the EU to come into affect midnight 31 October
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 8:17 pm

A101 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
I’ve met Mrs May on a number of occasions. Very pleasant. She took on a difficult job, not helped with calling the election. If she had not, we’d have been out the EU by now.
.



While I agree she did take on a difficult job after Cameron cut and run, who would not lead for all the people even after stating that he would do it and respect the result.

As for TM I have no sympathy, in hindsight I’m actually glad she called the snap election as it might have meant we could have been stuck with that god awful WA. It was a shear act of lunacy to try and bring back the WA for a fourth time, the electorate knows were we are up to it’s either exit with no deal or revoke, but if the next PM is serious on delivering the result of the referenda then there is only one clear choice


Norwegian style of Brexit? That is what Farage kept telling us during the campaign thus what people voted for......

But in all seriousness, the withdrawal agreement will keep popping up, even if you decide to crash out. The EU already sad that if the UK wants a deal it must first agree on with the withdrawal agreement, no matter if it is before the official withdraw or not. The 39bn are current commitments, thus needs to be paid anyway, so that is a fallacy if you believe that money could be saved.

I kindly remind you, you wanted this, you voted for this, keep reminding yourself even if you run awaymake your move to Australia.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 8:21 pm

A101 wrote:
it was common knowledge at the referenda that leaving the EU meant leaving CU/SM and David Cameron reaffirmed that position in the final weeks leading up to the referenda


Again no, this was absolutely not clear. Mr. Farage never advocated it, so how can you say this?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 8:42 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
it was common knowledge at the referenda that leaving the EU meant leaving CU/SM and David Cameron reaffirmed that position in the final weeks leading up to the referenda


Again no, this was absolutely not clear. Mr. Farage never advocated it, so how can you say this?



Mr. Farage was not the sitting Prime Minister at the time but Mr. Cameron was, a leave vote was a vote to leave the EU institutions which incorporate’s the CU/SM it was clear in all the paraphernalia sent to each home throughout the UK what leave meant, and which he reaffirmed just prior to the referenda.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 9:02 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
it was common knowledge at the referenda that leaving the EU meant leaving CU/SM and David Cameron reaffirmed that position in the final weeks leading up to the referenda


Again no, this was absolutely not clear. Mr. Farage never advocated it, so how can you say this?



Mr. Farage was not the sitting Prime Minister at the time but Mr. Cameron was, a leave vote was a vote to leave the EU institutions which incorporate’s the CU/SM it was clear in all the paraphernalia sent to each home throughout the UK what leave meant, and which he reaffirmed just prior to the referenda.



That's not what the Brexiteers campaigned for with their little red bus.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1195
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 9:04 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Norwegian style of Brexit? That is what Farage kept telling us during the campaign thus what people voted for......


And remainers said we will also be in deep recession by now just for voting leave, did you take that at face value as well?

Dutchy wrote:
But in all seriousness, the withdrawal agreement will keep popping up, even if you decide to crash out. The EU already sad that if the UK wants a deal it must first agree on with the withdrawal agreement, no matter if it is before the official withdraw or not. The 39bn are current commitments, thus needs to be paid anyway, so that is a fallacy if you believe that money could be saved.


Well no, we have been over this many times the EU can ask all it wants if the future trade deal is not to the benefit of of both parties than it won’t get over the line. But the WA won’t be brought up in its current form because we will already have left, no withdrawal agreement needs to be reached.

It’s a bit like the Chinese threat of stopping rare earth materials to the US in the trade war, but unfortunately rare earth minerals are not at all that rare and can be sourced from other areas

Dutchy wrote:
I kindly remind you, you wanted this, you voted for this, keep reminding yourself even if you run awaymake your move to Australia.



Still banging that drum hey, No I don’t need reminding that I voted to leave the EU.

Well put it this way if by some chance that the next PM revokes A50 and stays within the EU, I can still win when I retire, I’ll be out of the EU :rotfl:
 
A101
Posts: 1195
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 9:35 pm

Dutchy wrote:


That's not what the Brexiteers campaigned for with their little red bus.



That little red bus was part of the vote leave campaign which was the offical leave campaign group, which had part of their campaign material to to make our own free trade deals and remove free movement across the EU, the only way that can happen is by leaving the CU/SM and those fact we’re born out over the campaign period, it was a well known fact leave meant no longer being apart of the CU/SM


Come to think of it if you still haven’t given your definition of what leave means which I asked some time ago.
 
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Number6
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 9:40 pm

I still find this debate interesting. Firstly the ‘recession’ talk was based on the original plan of invoking Article 50 the morning after the result. Since it wasn’t done, no recession.

I also recall such talk, in fact all talk from the remain camp as ‘project fear’. Why is it that the leaving the single market was completely true and yet everything else ‘project fear?’

To me it seems your cherry picking the bits you want to dortige narrative while ignoring the bits you don’t like. And this seems to be true for a lot of Brexiteers. Find the bits you like, discard the rest and that’s what you voted for.
 
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par13del
Posts: 8922
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 10:21 pm

I said in the first Brexit thread and will say again here, May's problem from day one was selecting a cabinet that was split down the middle, for aa issue as major as this the government should have been decisive and not ruled by consensus, 60 / 40 or 70 / 30 should have been the ratio.

As a Remainer she could not loose if she had selected a dominant cabinet, either way.
A Remain cabinet by would now have found either a way for a new referendum or Brino.
A Leave cabinet would have already done no deal and by now the nation would either settle down or be reapplying for new EU membership.

A split cabinet resulted in a trashing of the UK parliamentary process which may either take years to recover or only be healed by closer integration with the EU.
 
A101
Posts: 1195
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 24, 2019 10:44 pm

Number6 wrote:
I still find this debate interesting. Firstly the ‘recession’ talk was based on the original plan of invoking Article 50 the morning after the result. Since it wasn’t done, no recession.

I also recall such talk, in fact all talk from the remain camp as ‘project fear’. Why is it that the leaving the single market was completely true and yet everything else ‘project fear?’

To me it seems your cherry picking the bits you want to dortige narrative while ignoring the bits you don’t like. And this seems to be true for a lot of Brexiteers. Find the bits you like, discard the rest and that’s what you voted for.


There is no doubt that misrepresentation’s and half truth were sprouted by both sides during the referenda campaign, which is no different from any GE campaign going back thru the years. It’s up to each individual to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

I stand by my vote now and into the future, it’s up to our elected representatives to do the best they can from the majority to which they asked the question.

It’s like I have always said, there are no stupid questions only answers to stupid questions you might not like, if you don’t like what the answer might be then don’t ask the question. Hence the reason where we are. David Cameron didn’t like the answer to his question.
 
marcelh
Posts: 675
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 25, 2019 5:05 am

A101 wrote:
Number6 wrote:
I still find this debate interesting. Firstly the ‘recession’ talk was based on the original plan of invoking Article 50 the morning after the result. Since it wasn’t done, no recession.

I also recall such talk, in fact all talk from the remain camp as ‘project fear’. Why is it that the leaving the single market was completely true and yet everything else ‘project fear?’

To me it seems your cherry picking the bits you want to dortige narrative while ignoring the bits you don’t like. And this seems to be true for a lot of Brexiteers. Find the bits you like, discard the rest and that’s what you voted for.


There is no doubt that misrepresentation’s and half truth were sprouted by both sides during the referenda campaign, which is no different from any GE campaign going back thru the years. It’s up to each individual to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

I stand by my vote now and into the future, it’s up to our elected representatives to do the best they can from the majority to which they asked the question.

It’s like I have always said, there are no stupid questions only answers to stupid questions you might not like, if you don’t like what the answer might be then don’t ask the question. Hence the reason where we are. David Cameron didn’t like the answer to his question.

Add to your last statement that the Brexiteers don’t like the answer how to leave as well. For them the WA isn’t an option

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