User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 25, 2019 7:32 am

A101 wrote:
Come to think of it if you still haven’t given your definition of what leave means which I asked some time ago.


Leave isn't defined, thus it is quite simply anything which will mean given up EU membership and the range of getting a Brino till crashing out of the EU. That is the main problem, if something isn't defined, people give their own interpretation, including that people voted leave means crashing out. And everyone knows that that is a false narrative.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 25, 2019 7:38 am

marcelh wrote:
Add to your last statement that the Brexiteers don’t like the answer how to leave as well. For them the WA isn’t an option


For Brexitremist the only acceptable outcome is crashing out of the EU and go to WTO terms (without understanding what happens). That's why they are extremist, rigid in what they want, locked into the most extreme point of view. Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Farage are the financial terrorists of our time.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1016
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 25, 2019 6:54 pm

marcelh wrote:


Add to your last statement that the Brexiteers don’t like the answer how to leave as well. For them the WA isn’t an option


NO,Its not that Brexiteers do not want an orderly agreement far from it, the WA in its current form it should not be an option. In its current form the WA concedes our sovereignty to the EU as it takes away our ability to leave the EU at any time without the EU mutually agreeing to it, hence we become a vassal state.

It is also against our Constitution that Parliament cannot bind its successor, I also suspect that that the WA violates the Treaty of Lisbon and Article 50 "1.Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements." in respects that the UK cannot decide unilaterally to withdraw from it, that then would be a matter for the ECJ and a long drawn out legal battle will ensure
 
A101
Posts: 1016
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 25, 2019 7:52 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Leave isn't defined

That's not what I asked what does the word leave mean to you if you said you were going to leave something?


Dutchy wrote:
,thus it is quite simply anything which will mean given up EU membership and the range of getting a Brino till crashing out of the EU. That is the main problem, if something isn't defined, people give their own interpretation, including that people voted leave means crashing out. And everyone knows that that is a false narrative.


It cant get anymore clear on what it meant to leave the EU, for many years prior to the referenda David Cameron had made it pretty simple choice, as well as Theresa May, remember its not the campaign saying it, it was people of actual authority in government.

January 2013
David Cameron said he would seek a "mandate" for a renegotiation and a referendum in the next Conservative election manifesto(2015) "And when we have negotiated that new settlement, we will give the British people a referendum with a very simple in-or-out choice to stay in the EU on these new terms; or come out altogether. It will be an in/out referendum."

April 2015
David Cameron as part of the manifesto “David Cameron has committed that he will only lead a government that offers an in-out referendum”

June 2016
Prime Minister David Cameron “The British public would be voting if we leave would be to leave the EU and leave the single market."

January 2017
May said "the U.K. would be leaving the EU's single market, leaving the EU's customs union in its current form"
Last edited by A101 on Sat May 25, 2019 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
A101
Posts: 1016
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 25, 2019 7:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Add to your last statement that the Brexiteers don’t like the answer how to leave as well. For them the WA isn’t an option


For Brexitremist the only acceptable outcome is crashing out of the EU and go to WTO terms (without understanding what happens). That's why they are extremist, rigid in what they want, locked into the most extreme point of view. Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Farage are the financial terrorists of our time.



No, that's not right I believe "No deal is better than a bad deal" you have no idea what the majority of pro Brexit want, you keep sprouting that extremist line as fact when its far from the truth.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 25, 2019 8:10 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Leave isn't defined

That's not what I asked what does the word leave mean to you if you said you were going to leave something?


Dutchy wrote:
,thus it is quite simply anything which will mean given up EU membership and the range of getting a Brino till crashing out of the EU. That is the main problem, if something isn't defined, people give their own interpretation, including that people voted leave means crashing out. And everyone knows that that is a false narrative.


It cant get anymore clear on what it meant to leave the EU, for many years prior to the referenda David Cameron had made it pretty simple choice, as well as Theresa May, remember its not the campaign saying it, it was people of actual authority in government.

January 2013
David Cameron said he would seek a "mandate" for a renegotiation and a referendum in the next Conservative election manifesto(2015) "And when we have negotiated that new settlement, we will give the British people a referendum with a very simple in-or-out choice to stay in the EU on these new terms; or come out altogether. It will be an in/out referendum."

April 2015
David Cameron as part of the manifesto “David Cameron has committed that he will only lead a government that offers an in-out referendum”

June 2016
Prime Minister David Cameron “The British public would be voting if we leave would be to leave the EU and leave the single market."

January 2017
May said "the U.K. would be leaving the EU's single market, leaving the EU's customs union in its current form"


So whatever Nigel Farage said or all the other Brexiteers does not matter then? That is a strange point of view to take.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 25, 2019 8:16 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Add to your last statement that the Brexiteers don’t like the answer how to leave as well. For them the WA isn’t an option


For Brexitremist the only acceptable outcome is crashing out of the EU and go to WTO terms (without understanding what happens). That's why they are extremist, rigid in what they want, locked into the most extreme point of view. Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Farage are the financial terrorists of our time.



No, that's not right I believe "No deal is better than a bad deal" you have no idea what the majority of pro Brexit want, you keep sprouting that extremist line as fact when its far from the truth.


That is what Farage wants, that is what Rees-Mogg wants, that is what the Brexit party wants.

So what is it that you want then? You know what is possible within the possibilities of the EU and the Good Friday Agreement. No fairytales, just what is possible.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1016
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 25, 2019 9:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:

So whatever Nigel Farage said or all the other Brexiteers does not matter then? That is a strange point of view to take.
.


I never said they don't matter, all I have shown what leave meant to those in authority



Dutchy wrote:
That is what Farage wants, that is what Rees-Mogg wants, that is what the Brexit party wants.
.


The Brexit party would prefer to leave with no deal than what's currently on offer by the withdrawal agreement, the EU has publicly said that no re-negotiation will take place on the WA, so no deal is better than a bad deal


Dutchy wrote:
So what is it that you want then? You know what is possible within the possibilities of the EU and the Good Friday Agreement. No fairytales, just what is possible.


You know as I have said in the past in relation to the GFA, I have given no fairy tales and it is possible to go to WTO rules and still bide by the GFA, I don't think I need to explain it again to you. its not the UK going against the Treaty of Lisbon and the Article 50 procedures, we are in compliance in full

1.Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2.A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3)[12] of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council [of the European Union], acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.


3.The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4.For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.
A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5.If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 25, 2019 10:17 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
That is what Farage wants, that is what Rees-Mogg wants, that is what the Brexit party wants.
.


The Brexit party would prefer to leave with no deal than what's currently on offer by the withdrawal agreement, the EU has publicly said that no re-negotiation will take place on the WA, so no deal is better than a bad deal


The WA was the result of negotiations, why would you ask to negotiate the agreement again?

Yeah, yesh, the pointless and empty slogan: no deal is better than a bad deal. The truth for the UK, almost all deals are better then no deal.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So what is it that you want then? You know what is possible within the possibilities of the EU and the Good Friday Agreement. No fairytales, just what is possible.


You know as I have said in the past in relation to the GFA, I have given no fairy tales and it is possible to go to WTO rules and still bide by the GFA, I don't think I need to explain it again to you. its not the UK going against the Treaty of Lisbon and the Article 50 procedures, we are in compliance in full/quote]

Wht put the text of article 50?

We went over this a zillion times, GFA and trading on WTO terms will not go hand in hand, it is one or the other, not both. No matter how many times you keep repeating it, it still won't become true.

Do you suggest that the EU is not complying with article 50? Please show us how?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1016
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 25, 2019 11:25 pm

Dutchy wrote:

The WA was the result of negotiations, why would you ask to negotiate the agreement again?


Because it has not complied with,

1.Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2.A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3)[12] of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council [of the European Union], acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.


Dutchy wrote:

Yeah, yesh, the pointless and empty slogan: no deal is better than a bad deal. The truth for the UK, almost all deals are better then no deal.


Everything is a pointless slogan to you unless it suit your agenda. it also makes good business sence to make a deal which leaves you better off, then when it doesn’t then what’s the point of the deal.


Dutchy wrote:
Wht put the text of article 50?


Because you need reminding of the withdrawal process


Dutchy wrote:
We went over this a zillion times, GFA and trading on WTO terms will not go hand in hand, it is one or the other, not both. No matter how many times you keep repeating it, it still won't become true.


I have shown you in the past that is false, the GFA is not about trade and WTO does not restrict the movement of people across borders


Dutchy wrote:
Do you suggest that the EU is not complying with article 50? Please show us how?


I have shown you this before, read A50
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 26, 2019 7:41 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

The WA was the result of negotiations, why would you ask to negotiate the agreement again?


Because it has not complied with,

1.Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2.A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3)[12] of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council [of the European Union], acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.


Let get this straight. The EU negotiates a deal with the government of the leaving party, but it fails to get a majority and that's why the EU is not in compliance? So in other words, whatever the UK House of Commons wants, the EU should accept because otherwise, it will not be in compliance with article 50. That is your reasoning? :shock: :rotfl:


A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Yeah, yeah, the pointless and empty slogan: no deal is better than a bad deal. The truth for the UK, almost all deals are better then no deal.


Everything is a pointless slogan to you unless it suit your agenda. it also makes good business sence to make a deal which leaves you better off, then when it doesn’t then what’s the point of the deal.


That's why it is a hollow phrase, it is a truism, nobody could disagree with that, so a pointless slogan is quite soft.


A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Wht put the text of article 50?


Because you need reminding of the withdrawal process


Really? Now, what exactly am I missing in the withdraw process what you need to remind me of?

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
We went over this a zillion times, GFA and trading on WTO terms will not go hand in hand, it is one or the other, not both. No matter how many times you keep repeating it, it still won't become true.


I have shown you in the past that is false, the GFA is not about trade and WTO does not restrict the movement of people across borders


GFA is not about trade, it is about open borders. WTO isn't an open border because it has two different trade regimes on both sides, goods aren't free to pass, thus there is a need for border crossings, that is not hard to grasp. I have been explained to you, others have explained it to you, it has been in the media, it is for that reason in the Withdraw Agreement. You don't need to be stubborn about every subject, you can just agree that you are wrong when it is so obvious.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Do you suggest that the EU is not complying with article 50? Please show us how?


I have shown you this before, read A50


Again show me............
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1016
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 26, 2019 8:18 am

Dutchy wrote:

Let get this straight. The EU negotiates a deal with the government of the leaving party, but it fails to get a majority and that's why the EU is not in compliance? So in other words, whatever the UK House of Commons wants, the EU should accept because otherwise, it will not be in compliance with article 50. That is your reasoning? :shock: :rotfl:


Go and actually read A50 and it will show you the process, remember the due process is very important in the EU, ill actually give you a hint

" setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union"


Dutchy wrote:

That's why it is a hollow phrase, it is a truism, nobody could disagree with that, so a pointless slogan is quite soft.


If you agree its correct, then its not pointless


Dutchy wrote:
Really? Now, what exactly am I missing in the withdraw process what you need to remind me of?


Due process

Dutchy wrote:

GFA is not about trade, it is about open borders. WTO isn't an open border because it has two different trade regimes on both sides, goods aren't free to pass, thus there is a need for border crossings, that is not hard to grasp. I have been explained to you, others have explained it to you, it has been in the media, it is for that reason in the Withdraw Agreement. You don't need to be stubborn about every subject, you can just agree that you are wrong when it is so obvious.


No I'm not wrong, the GFA is about the free movement of Irish citizens not trade as I pointed out and you agreed. If trade is not in the GFA so how then does it contravene it?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 26, 2019 8:52 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Let get this straight. The EU negotiates a deal with the government of the leaving party, but it fails to get a majority and that's why the EU is not in compliance? So in other words, whatever the UK House of Commons wants, the EU should accept because otherwise, it will not be in compliance with article 50. That is your reasoning? :shock: :rotfl:


Go and actually read A50 and it will show you the process, remember the due process is very important in the EU, ill actually give you a hint

" setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union"


So? Do you think that within the withdrawal agreement there should be a passage of what the future relationship with the EU should be? Do you think your House of Commons could agree on anything?
The EU already pointed out what the future relationship with the EU could be:

Image

The UK needs to choose, not cherry pick, but choose. It is not the EU's fault that the UK is incapable to choose. Or indeed, you think the EU should roll over and just let the UK cherry pick and just through away everything the EU is based on. The UK will be worse off outside the EU, unless you believe in fairytailes that is an undesputed fact.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

That's why it is a hollow phrase, it is a truism, nobody could disagree with that, so a pointless slogan is quite soft.


If you agree its correct, then its not pointless


It is pointless because nobody will disagree with that, it has no meaning.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Really? Now, what exactly am I missing in the withdraw process what you need to remind me of?


Due process


Uhmmmm, yes you might actually think that the EU must roll over to every whimp of the House of Commons and let the UK cherry pick, don't you.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

GFA is not about trade, it is about open borders. WTO isn't an open border because it has two different trade regimes on both sides, goods aren't free to pass, thus there is a need for border crossings, that is not hard to grasp. I have been explained to you, others have explained it to you, it has been in the media, it is for that reason in the Withdraw Agreement. You don't need to be stubborn about every subject, you can just agree that you are wrong when it is so obvious.


No I'm not wrong, the GFA is about the free movement of Irish citizens not trade as I pointed out and you agreed. If trade is not in the GFA so how then does it contravene it?


GFA is about open borders, won't you agree? If you have followed anything about this, you will see that people are against any phisical signs of a border, any phisical signs, even a camara (which isn't enough). If the two sides of the border have different trade regimes, there will be a phisical border, point, it is mendetory. If you do not grasp that concept than what is the point in discusising it?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1016
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 26, 2019 10:48 am

Dutchy wrote:

So? Do you think that within the withdrawal agreement there should be a passage of what the future relationship with the EU should be? Do you think your House of Commons could agree on anything?
The EU already pointed out what the future relationship with the EU could be:


Negotiations for both the WA and the future trade agreement needed to be run in parallel, as A50 Sec:2 say the withdrawal agreement has to take into account the future relationship, the backstop is actually designed to cede sovereignty to the EU., therefore it takes away the UK sovereign power to leave in accordance with its own constitutional requirements. The WA cannot pass a sovereign parliment because our constitution prohibits bind our successor which in its current form the WA will do.

If the EU followed due process as per A50 Sec:2 the future relationship would have been settled and therefore the WA would no longer infringe A50 Sec:1

Mays red lines were perfectly feasible as if she had not deviated from the manifesto we were no longer going to be part of the CU/SM, as I have said before the EU played TM beautifully in creating division within the UK negotiations team, it also helps that TM really did not believe in what she was trying to achieve and follow her own parties manifesto






Dutchy wrote:
The UK needs to choose, not cherry pick, but choose. It is not the EU's fault that the UK is incapable to choose. Or indeed, you think the EU should roll over and just let the UK cherry pick and just through away everything the EU is based on. The UK will be worse off outside the EU, unless you believe in fairytailes that is an undesputed fact.


No we didn’t have to choose any of those agreements, but they could have been used as a template to the future agreement, what’s good for Canada or Sth Korea may not be suitable for the UK, it’s not up to parliment to make a suitable agreement, as each party within parliament party has there own policy on any different subject, it’s also up to the government if it does not have the numbers to pass legislation by themselves to bring the agreement before parliament to make sure it will pass the legislative process, by signing the agreement before she knew she could get it passed was a dereliction of duty before parliment, hence the situation we find ourselves in.




Dutchy wrote:

It is pointless because nobody will disagree with that, it has no meaning.


Just because you have no countenance to it dose not mean it has no meaning.


Dutchy wrote:

Uhmmmm, yes you might actually think that the EU must roll over to every whimp of the House of Commons and let the UK cherry pick, don't you.


Obviously you are lost on the meaning, following due process which is a fundamental position of the EU dosnt mean you have to roll over at the negotiations table, something TM fundamentally had forgotten



Dutchy wrote:

GFA is about open borders, won't you agree? If you have followed anything about this, you will see that people are against any phisical signs of a border, any phisical signs, even a camara (which isn't enough). If the two sides of the border have different trade regimes, there will be a phisical border, point, it is mendetory. If you do not grasp that concept than what is the point in discusising it?



The GFA is about the free passage of Irish citizens to move freely across the border, which has been in existence since the Irish become independent in 1922, there always had been a customs border of some description up until both nations joined the EEC, there is nothing in the GFA which states both sides have to be in the same regulatory agreement for trade, there will be no physical border or movement controls which stops Irish citizens from crossing.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11657
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 26, 2019 11:29 am

Until 31 October the EU is without a commission, without many things, so there is no way to negotiate anything anyway.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8672
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 26, 2019 12:05 pm

Aesma wrote:
Until 31 October the EU is without a commission, without many things, so there is no way to negotiate anything anyway.

So the EU is handing the Brexiters what they want, leave with no deal?

I simply do not understand why the Remainers and Brexiters cannot get on the same page with the EU, the EU has said no renegotiation of the WA and all of the so called horses in the race for PM including the leader of Labour continue to "lie" to the UK public. No renegotiation means just that, no one is applying that to be on the same principle as leave means leave.
The UK parliament voted down the same deal multiple times, not sure if that has ever happened before, the same deal with no changes, all the "changes" TM was willing to give and do were outside of the EU deal in terms of what the UK would bind themselves by once outside of the EU.

In my mind those are the things that the leaders in waiting should be taking to the public and once a consensus is reached, vote on them, make them law then bring the WA back for an approval vote. Unlike the UK, the EU no renegotiation means just that, so the lying to the UK public needs to stop.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3014
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 26, 2019 12:25 pm

Aesma wrote:
Until 31 October the EU is without a commission, without many things, so there is no way to negotiate anything anyway.


Indeed, one of the first things the new PM will have to do when he/she takes over this summer is either:
1/ play for more time to re-negotiate the WA (and the political declaration) with the EU this winter;
2/ refuse to even try to do so and accept crashing out ill prepared and on a very abrupt notice for British businesses just a couple of weeks later.

The first is politically suicidal since it amounts to 'more of the same' in the eyes of those who just threw out TM, the second will not be allowed by the current Parliament in which the new PM still won't hold a majority, of course!

Only solution is thus a GE (in which there might very well turn out to be a clear 'no deal Brexit' majority thanks to the FPTP electoral system in Britain, but in which the Tories may very well be trashed by Farage's BP at the same), or another referendum to try to change the current Parliamentary thinking without also changing the arithmatics at the same time.
The GE is thus not going to happen because Tory politics has always set party before country and this would be an existential GE for them even, while the suggestion of a second referendum is what killed TM off, so unless the new PM can somehow magically change Parliament's opinion without any of those 2 electoral solutions, he or she is going to get trapped in the very same web of conflicting interests and demands by party and Parliament which has already caught up with 2 Tory PM's now!

So, what's the magical trick by which to suddenly convince enough MPs -including also opposition ones- to make them accept a 'no deal Brexit'?
That should be the single question asked to each and every Tory leadership candidate over the next six weeks or so!
Looking forward to their unicorn headcount!!!
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1753
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 26, 2019 12:34 pm

A101 wrote:

Once again facts get in the way of remainer ideology.

The EU has said it will no longer have negotiations, TM was fixated on a WA which went against our constitutional parliamentary sovereignty right of not binding it successor.


Possible future prime ministers are just not ruling out a no deal exit if the EU will not return to the negotiations table.

Fact facts facts.


I'm really curious about this line of argument. To me it seems that any successor government can in fact withdraw from agreements set by previous governments, albeit with the caveat that it loses any concessions and doesn't expect immunity from penalties.

In theory, the UK could leave NATO and declare war on Germany tomorrow if it wanted to (notwithstanding the obvious negative consequences). I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.

That said, one wouldn't logically expect NATO to cut a deal with the UK if half the country kept threatening to quit within months/years and declare war on its members. This is not an unacceptable or exceptional expectation. It's rational. What's the point of agreeing something today if it's going to be torn up tomorrow?

The EU is perfectly entitled to expect continuity and commitment to an international treaty, just as most of the international community is when it signs treaties. If it's not convinced, it isn't required to reach an agreement regardless - with the UK anymore than it is with Tuvalu.

If that means no deal, so be it. For whatever reason, there isn't much appetite for a no-deal Brexit in the UK parliament. That's not an EU-created problem.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8672
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 26, 2019 12:53 pm

[quote="ElPistolero"]
The EU is perfectly entitled to expect continuity and commitment to an international treaty, just as most of the international community is when it signs treaties. If it's not convinced, it isn't required to reach an agreement regardless - with the UK anymore than it is with Tuvalu.]
I think there is a big fundamental miss here, if it were that easy and simple the UK would have been out of the closer integrations put in place by the EU decades ago, it would not have taken the largest voter turnout in the history of the nation on a non-binding referendum on the EU.
Any party could have complained about EU this and EU that and once elected had 5 years to make the necessary changes.
Citizens in the UK complain about numerous EU rules and regulations that the UK laws enforce, yet despite their complaints they have to live and abide by them.

It is the beauty of the EU and its 4 pillars, you get all or none, so it may sound as if any country can just cherry pick what they want but that is a distortion of reality in every parliamentary system. Now where the UK was held is such high regard has been trashed by those same elites who support and do not support the EU, together they have combined to show the world how parliament is not supposed to work.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3014
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 26, 2019 1:05 pm

The chancellor basically making the same analysis on the BBC this morning, as I just did above:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -on-brexit

"No PM can ignore the will of Parliament"
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8672
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 26, 2019 1:30 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
"No PM can ignore the will of Parliament"

I am certain the chancellor in his next intervention will let the nation know just what is the "Will of Parliament" so far they like the UK government has been all over the place.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1753
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 26, 2019 2:35 pm

par13del wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
"No PM can ignore the will of Parliament"

I am certain the chancellor in his next intervention will let the nation know just what is the "Will of Parliament" so far they like the UK government has been all over the place.


They're pretty clear that "no deal" is unacceptable to them. Brexiteers will claim that the 52% who voted Brexit want a no deal, but that's a bold/unprovable. After all, that would require some of the soft Brexiteers to become hard Brexiteers, and would fly against the current Brexit dogma that Brexiteer don't change their minds.

Looks like a vote of no confidence will end up happening before 31 October. Question is - how will the moderate Tories vote in that one? Personally, I think no deal is inevitable.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8672
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 26, 2019 9:48 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
They're pretty clear that "no deal" is unacceptable to them.

They are also pretty clear that the WA is "unacceptable to them", in fact they voted it down multiple times already.
Since the EU says no renegotiation and the parliament does not want the WA, what exactly are their options?
Well, based on what they have done so far maybe the parliament will bypass the government and work on a few other choices.
1. Withdraw Article 50
2. Call another referendum
3. Bring down the government to have a general election so the EU will negotiate with a new government
 
kaitak
Posts: 9667
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon May 27, 2019 8:56 am

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48417228

Reading the BBC News website this morning, two things jump out at me:
1) Although the headline news is that the Brexit Party won 37-38% of the vote and was therefore the single biggest winner, anti-Brexit parties came out with 40% of the vote. The Greens and Lib-Dems did pretty well. The Tories did extremely badly, which must make them worry about an election.
2) Brexit is off such massive importance to the political and economic future of future of the UK and they were so passionately anxious to cast their votes ... that barely 38% of them did so. 38% ! Not much more than a third. 62% didn't bother or were so sick and tired of the whole show that they didn't feel it mattered what bunch of clowns got elected.

The election shows a UK which is becoming more and more split. The 40% opposed to Brexit does include the SNP, so I can see a battle looming there; if Boris pushes for no deal, the SNP will push as much as possible for a new referendum, leading to Scotland rejoining the EU. The NI vote (which we won't see until tomorrow) will also be interesting to see. I expect a strong pro-EU vote and I expect that the DUP's stance will harm it electorally.

The trend: as if we hadn't suspected, Brexit is tearing the UK apart, politically, socially and in very many other ways ... and that's before it's even out of the EU.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon May 27, 2019 9:05 am

kaitak wrote:
The trend: as if we hadn't suspected, Brexit is tearing the UK apart, politically, socially and in very many other ways ... and that's before it's even out of the EU.


Yes, and for the sake of Brittian it needs to stop, before much more harm is done to them. I do not see a way out of here, it is the ultimate Gordian Knot.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
LJ
Posts: 4770
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon May 27, 2019 9:36 am

par13del wrote:
It is the beauty of the EU and its 4 pillars, you get all or none, so it may sound as if any country can just cherry pick what they want but that is a distortion of reality in every parliamentary system. Now where the UK was held is such high regard has been trashed by those same elites who support and do not support the EU, together they have combined to show the world how parliament is not supposed to work.


The UK got some opt outs which most other EU countries didn't get.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon May 27, 2019 9:39 am

LJ wrote:
par13del wrote:
It is the beauty of the EU and its 4 pillars, you get all or none, so it may sound as if any country can just cherry pick what they want but that is a distortion of reality in every parliamentary system. Now where the UK was held is such high regard has been trashed by those same elites who support and do not support the EU, together they have combined to show the world how parliament is not supposed to work.


The UK got some opt outs which most other EU countries didn't get.



Quite a lot actually and a rebate.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8672
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon May 27, 2019 10:41 am

LJ wrote:
The UK got some opt outs which most other EU countries didn't get.

Take the historical view and see when they got those rebates, DC actually started giving them back in his so called efforts to reform the EU from within, all his efforts have come to naught and may have made things worse.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon May 27, 2019 10:43 am

With Scotland results in, it seems things will become interesting ....
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon May 27, 2019 10:51 am

Olddog wrote:
With Scotland results in, it seems things will become interesting ....


What are the results?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8672
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon May 27, 2019 1:12 pm

 
AeroVega
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon May 27, 2019 5:42 pm

kaitak wrote:
2) Brexit is off such massive importance to the political and economic future of future of the UK and they were so passionately anxious to cast their votes ... that barely 38% of them did so. 38% ! Not much more than a third. 62% didn't bother or were so sick and tired of the whole show that they didn't feel it mattered what bunch of clowns got elected.


This is for me the most significant result from this election: that the Brexit referendum result was not an accident. If there ever was an opportunity for the British electorate to stop Brexit, these elections were it. It should now be crystal clear to the EU that there is no motivated pro-EU majority in the UK, and that it is time to start preparing for a hard Brexit in October.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8301
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon May 27, 2019 5:44 pm

So the Tory party has two choices.

1 wto withdrawal - and lose all remain supporters forever.

2 - remain - and fuel a rabid right wing party that attracts all kinds of wonderful, including radical communists.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon May 27, 2019 7:11 pm

BestWestern wrote:
So the Tory party has two choices.

1 wto withdrawal - and lose all remain supporters forever.

2 - remain - and fuel a rabid right wing party that attracts all kinds of wonderful, including radical communists.


Or go for a hard Brexit. Lost a few remain supporters, gain a whole lot of Brexit party supporters and a few Labour supporters.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8301
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon May 27, 2019 7:25 pm

Hard Brexit = WTO. For the tories, best short term.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon May 27, 2019 7:40 pm

BestWestern wrote:
Hard Brexit = WTO. For the tories, best short term.


For the country the absolute worst option.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8301
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon May 27, 2019 7:42 pm

But the tories will always look after themselves first.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
A101
Posts: 1016
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon May 27, 2019 10:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
Hard Brexit = WTO. For the tories, best short term.


For the country the absolute worst option.



You keeping thinking in terms that the EU is all that matters to the UK in the way of trade......you going to be in for a rude shock when all this is over.

The UK is a insignificant market for the EU so it won’t matter if we source from elsewhere
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1096
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 28, 2019 7:43 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48419144

You have Tom Watson correctly saying they lost many votes due to their clear as mud Brexit stance, Jeremy Corbyn claiming otherwise :banghead: , John McDonnell acknowledging that a GE isn't going to happen any time soon (or at least not voluntarily by the incoming PM) and various Labour MP's tearing strips off each other over what they should and shouldn't do. To add to the chaos, you've got Tony Blair's former spin doctor Alastair Campbell openly saying on TV he voted Lib Dem in protest of Labour's Brexit stance (Campbell's views on the EU aren't difficult to work out and it's understandable why he voted the way he did last week frankly) and it wouldn't surprise me if there were many more like him doing the same thing.

For all the talk about Brexit being an existential threat for the Tories, hopefully everyone now realises that Labour are just as divided and absolutely useless on the issue and are charting their own course for electoral disaster if the EU and recent local elections are anything to go by.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 28, 2019 7:48 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
Hard Brexit = WTO. For the tories, best short term.


For the country the absolute worst option.



You keeping thinking in terms that the EU is all that matters to the UK in the way of trade......you going to be in for a rude shock when all this is over.

The UK is a insignificant market for the EU so it won’t matter if we source from elsewhere


Everything points to it that the EU is quite important for UK trade. You seems to believe in the unicorn that "they need us more than we need them".
Well see if you crashing out of the EU what it actually means. (I hope the UK isn't that foolish, but you are dead set on it, with you get out of jail freeecard).
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
LJ
Posts: 4770
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 28, 2019 8:08 am

A101 wrote:
The UK is a insignificant market for the EU so it won’t matter if we source from elsewhere


I reckon you mean that the EU is an insignificant market for the UK, as the way you currently put it suggests that the EU shouldn't bother losing the UK as a market (unless i k miss something in the sentence)?

Anyway, 4/5 of the top 5 export countries of the UK are from the EU. The same picture when you look at imports. Yeah, the UK doesn't bother if some of that trades diminishes......

http://www.worldstopexports.com/united-kingdoms-top-import-partners/
 
User avatar
Loew
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:00 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 28, 2019 8:09 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
Hard Brexit = WTO. For the tories, best short term.


For the country the absolute worst option.



You keeping thinking in terms that the EU is all that matters to the UK in the way of trade......you going to be in for a rude shock when all this is over.

The UK is a insignificant market for the EU so it won’t matter if we source from elsewhere


Yes, it is insignificant.It is actually so insignificant, that the UK government has decided to spend 2 years just to negotiate the WA, instead of crashing out of the EU immidiately. Of course, who needs the WA when WTO is much better, right? WTO even has three letters instead of just two for the WA, making it at least 33% better than the WA. Yes the UK may, can and will source from elsewhere. Goods, services and people exchange between the UK and the EU is clearly second to none, well maybe except of those retirees living in Spain or Italy. But then again, they are traitors to the great UK idea. Clearly if someone is not satisfied in Blackpool or Skegness, such a person can´t be British! This great country actually doesn´t need to source anything as it is fully self sufficient in the most needed british goods and services, such as fish and chips, coin-operated electricity meters or Reliant Robin cars. Not to mention that without all those polish plumbers we can expect a drop in the usage of the London Underground by at least 75%, finally leaving a place for a black tea stand in each train. Yes, there is a bright future ahead A101. I just hope you would get a cabinet position under the new PM Boris (The BoJo) Johnson. Together, maybe you could lead the UK not just out of the EU, but maybe even out of this planet (Brearthix).
 
A101
Posts: 1016
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 28, 2019 9:57 am

LJ wrote:

I reckon you mean that the EU is an insignificant market for the UK, as the way you currently put it suggests that the EU shouldn't bother losing the UK as a market (unless i k miss something in the sentence)?



No I’m talking about Dutchy standard broken record answer about trading WTO and the “they need us more than we need them" that and the sky is going to fall down if we leave the EU crapola,that he believes that the UK has to do all the compromising when it come to the future relationship, I know where our current exports go, what I was referring to is the trade imbalance between the EU/UK, he has told us before that the overall exports from the EU to the UK is insignificant in regards to the amount of the greater exports from the EU across the globe.

When the new PM takes over and the EU still believes it does not have to also compromise on the WA then it should not matter if the UK sources what it imports from the EU from third countries
if we can get the items cheaper with others that have recognised that the UK can implement its own trade deals and a fully make trade deals with third countries, That is what I’m referring too.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 28, 2019 10:13 am

No elected politicians in the UK has the balls to go for a WTO brexit, knowing it will be a career end.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 28, 2019 10:20 am

A101 wrote:
LJ wrote:

I reckon you mean that the EU is an insignificant market for the UK, as the way you currently put it suggests that the EU shouldn't bother losing the UK as a market (unless i k miss something in the sentence)?



No I’m talking about Dutchy standard broken record answer about trading WTO and the “they need us more than we need them" that and the sky is going to fall down if we leave the EU crapola,that he believes that the UK has to do all the compromising when it come to the future relationship, I know where our current exports go, what I was referring to is the trade imbalance between the EU/UK, he has told us before that the overall exports from the EU to the UK is insignificant in regards to the amount of the greater exports from the EU across the globe.

When the new PM takes over and the EU still believes it does not have to also compromise on the WA then it should not matter if the UK sources what it imports from the EU from third countries
if we can get the items cheaper with others that have recognised that the UK can implement its own trade deals and a fully make trade deals with third countries, That is what I’m referring too.


Ah yes, my record is broken, just as project fear is just project fear. If you want to attribute a quote to me, do it correctly, I said that the portion of the trade the EU27 does is much much smaller than the portion of trade the UK does with the EU27, which is just a fact.
You still fail to comprehend what WTO rules are and how long a good trade deal takes to negotiate. You are the one whom needs to learn the hard way, you will not take anything from anyone whom doesn't subscribe to your extreme ideas.

The EU will not compromise its underlying value's, the EU will not compromise on the GFA, the EU will not compromise on its citizens. So what exactly do you want the EU to do, to save Brittian from itself?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11657
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 28, 2019 10:27 am

BTW, a new angle for this discussion.

With the current state of affairs at the WTO (if you don't know, look it up, it has got to do with Trump), is it even possible to do "WTO deals" ? To approve WTO schedules ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
LJ
Posts: 4770
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 28, 2019 11:05 am

A101 wrote:
When the new PM takes over and the EU still believes it does not have to also compromise on the WA then it should not matter if the UK sources what it imports from the EU from third countries
if we can get the items cheaper with others that have recognised that the UK can implement its own trade deals and a fully make trade deals with third countries, That is what I’m referring too.


Yet importing from third countries will always be more expensive due to the added transportation, insurance and/or financing costs, if the goods can be purchased from third countries (for the same quality). Needless to say, there will always be a substitute available somewhere, but at what cost?
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1096
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 28, 2019 11:37 am

Olddog wrote:
No elected politicians in the UK has the balls to go for a WTO brexit, knowing it will be a career end.


As well as being economically damaging for the UK and the worst of all worlds, particularly in the short-to-medium term. I'd hazard a guess that some of the candidates for the Tory leadership who are advocating a no-deal Brexit such as Esther McVey will be looking at ways to backpedal out of that commitment as soon as they realise how damaging this would be, how under-prepared and unsuitable we are as a nation for such a scenario and whether the short-to-medium term pain is worth it both for their careers and country.

It's time that we took this off the table and either call a second referendum with the options being remain or leave on May's WA terms or, better still, revoke Article 50.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17272
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 28, 2019 2:35 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
It's time that we took this off the table and either call a second referendum with the options being remain or leave on May's WA terms or, better still, revoke Article 50.


But, but... more voting is a "betrayal of democracy". :sarcastic:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 28, 2019 3:36 pm

A101 wrote:

When the new PM takes over and the EU still believes it does not have to also compromise on the WA then it should not matter if the UK sources what it imports from the EU from third countries
if we can get the items cheaper with others that have recognised that the UK can implement its own trade deals and a fully make trade deals with third countries, That is what I’m referring too.


But the UK has access to markets elsewhere in the world because of agreements in place, because of it's membership of the EU. Germany does vastly more trade with China and vice versa than the UK does, yet it's in the EU. So what's holding the UK back then? Because it doesn't seem to be the EU.

Cheaper does not always = better. What do they want in return?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: N1611B, TheF15Ace, Tugger and 31 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos