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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:57 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
It really seems the UK is trapped in a delusional self-belief which very much resembles the story of the emperor's new clothes… or rather the empire's new clothes, I should say!


Some people for sure. The primus of Brexit being profitable is self-delusional.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:03 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:

It has been explained to you times and times again why future trade agreement terms cannot be negotiated before the departure. That’s a legal issue, UK cannot seat on both sides of the negotiation table, it first needs to leave its seat on the EU side.
You must know the Political Declaration is a perfect place to express what kind of “future framework for trade” UK envisage, do you ?


Yep certainly is a legal position, one that the EU is not compliant in A50 Section 1, the withdrawal agreement " must take into account of the future relationship as part of the WA" All members agreed on the process but that's all right keep telling yourself that the EU is above reproach

Grizzly410 wrote:
She couldn’t follow “no deal is better than a bad deal”, nobody can actually : it’s an empty catch phrase from the beginning. How could anyone do anything but laugh at this is unbelievable.
There is no good deal available as you already have the best one, anything else is bad and the worse being obviously “no deal” at all.
Of course you’ll disagree, so : see you in late October when your next PM release its first extension request.


No its not, we are leaving the conditions of the CU/SM, and being in the EU doesn't mean it is the best outcome for the circumstances in country, in this very case no deal is a better deal than the WA because the deal on the table will not let us leave the EU. So obviously yes a WA brino it is a bad deal
Last edited by A101 on Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:15 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
par13del wrote:
Regardless of Brexit, I do not understand how the transit-migrants work, the majority of illegal migrants in Northern France trying to reach the UK and elsewhere did not land in France, additionally, freedom of movement does not apply to illegal immigrants.
So how do they get from Italy to France?


You are clearly not fully understanding FoM and mixing it up with passport free travel:

1/ FoM is a citizen right of EU citizens only which allows them to move to and settle in any EU country.

2/ Passport free travel is something which comes with the Schengen Area and basically means all people within the area can travel from one Schengen country to another without being checked at the border.

The 2 things do not mean the same and although in many cases they do overlap, they don't have to: the UK for intance is in the EU (and thus has FoM), but is outside of the Schengenzone (and thus has border posts checking passports upon entry to the UK), but because of item 1, they can not refuse entry to EU citizens, leading many to think that leaving the EU would mean 'truely taking back control of our borders', whereas as I have tried to explain you, the very opposite may very well be true if the French play it not so nicely...

To reply to your question: those transit migrants enter the Schengen Area somewhere illegally via its almost endless costal borders in the east and south of Europe and then make their way up throughout the different Schengen memberstates pretty much unhindered, similar to how somebody landing in Scotland could make his way unhindered to the south of England...
Only when they turn up at the French coast just before their attempt to cross the Channel are they held back by French police in respect of the Touquet agreement and so the French (and the Belgians and Dutch to a lesser degree) are until now so kind to take on a massive humanitarian burden which should actually be a purely British one: i.e. it that of holding back and hosting unwanted immigrants on behalf of the UK.

Some interesting reading on the particular arrangement and the risk to it because of Brexit:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... nce-saying
Also, note how the then French minister who made the chilling treat is called…
Hold a minute! Don't you know him as somebody else today? ;)
I hope the UK is also preparing not only to create additional parking lots in the south east, but also ample space for a Dover Jungle.

FoM, Schengen, Le Touquet agreement... they all seem pretty much the same to many Brits, but they aren't!
The total lack of understanding of all the legal subtleties by most ordinary people like you yourself admit as well as the refusal to try to explain it as simple as possible to them by their politicians is going to bite the UK very badly as it will discover many many unwanted consequences of its departure from the EU (and all that goes with it) as they develop. By leaving the EU with no deal, the UK hands France (and others) the possiblility to basically control the flow of migrants towards it! How do you like the prospect of Macron holding his hand on the tap, able to tun it open anytime he wants some concessions from the British government? Remember it's just a few miles from Calais to Dover, and all that is needed is a day of good weather and few rubber boats to fill the British coasts with immigrants… and the British tabloids with pictures of their arrival!
I remember that at some point the Turks were said to offer lifevests to all Syrians willing to cross into Greece, allegedly on a purely humanitarian basis... I can imagine the French being so 'noble' too: it's basically what that then French minister has said, didn't he?
Bojo will surely love the idea of it once he's PM... ;)


Not completely correct.

British Immigration Officers can refuse entry to EU citizens under certain circumstances (if they are subject to a Deportation Order, if there are child welfare issues and so forth) we can and do refuse entry.

Additionally a national of an EU country must confirm their identity and nationality at the Border. I use to have many an amusing argument with German, Belgium and Dutch nationals at the border in Calais that had forgotten their passports and ID cards and felt showing me a credit card or a photo of their ID card/ passport was satisfactory evidence of nationality (which was not enough to satisfy me).

They were most upset when I refused entry to the UK and told to come back with the proper ID.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:21 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
par13del wrote:
Regardless of Brexit, I do not understand how the transit-migrants work, the majority of illegal migrants in Northern France trying to reach the UK and elsewhere did not land in France, additionally, freedom of movement does not apply to illegal immigrants.
So how do they get from Italy to France?


You are clearly not fully understanding FoM and mixing it up with passport free travel:

1/ FoM is a citizen right of EU citizens only which allows them to move to and settle in any EU country.

2/ Passport free travel is something which comes with the Schengen Area and basically means all people within the area can travel from one Schengen country to another without being checked at the border.

The 2 things do not mean the same and although in many cases they do overlap, they don't have to: the UK for intance is in the EU (and thus has FoM), but is outside of the Schengenzone (and thus has border posts checking passports upon entry to the UK), but because of item 1, they can not refuse entry to EU citizens, leading many to think that leaving the EU would mean 'truely taking back control of our borders', whereas as I have tried to explain you, the very opposite may very well be true if the French play it not so nicely...

To reply to your question: those transit migrants enter the Schengen Area somewhere illegally via its almost endless costal borders in the east and south of Europe and then make their way up throughout the different Schengen memberstates pretty much unhindered, similar to how somebody landing in Scotland could make his way unhindered to the south of England...
Only when they turn up at the French coast just before their attempt to cross the Channel are they held back by French police in respect of the Touquet agreement and so the French (and the Belgians and Dutch to a lesser degree) are until now so kind to take on a massive humanitarian burden which should actually be a purely British one: i.e. it that of holding back and hosting unwanted immigrants on behalf of the UK.

Some interesting reading on the particular arrangement and the risk to it because of Brexit:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... nce-saying
Also, note how the then French minister who made the chilling treat is called…
Hold a minute! Don't you know him as somebody else today? ;)
I hope the UK is also preparing not only to create additional parking lots in the south east, but also ample space for a Dover Jungle.

FoM, Schengen, Le Touquet agreement... they all seem pretty much the same to many Brits, but they aren't!
The total lack of understanding of all the legal subtleties by most ordinary people like you yourself admit as well as the refusal to try to explain it as simple as possible to them by their politicians is going to bite the UK very badly as it will discover many many unwanted consequences of its departure from the EU (and all that goes with it) as they develop. By leaving the EU with no deal, the UK hands France (and others) the possiblility to basically control the flow of migrants towards it! How do you like the prospect of Macron holding his hand on the tap, able to tun it open anytime he wants some concessions from the British government? Remember it's just a few miles from Calais to Dover, and all that is needed is a day of good weather and few rubber boats to fill the British coasts with immigrants… and the British tabloids with pictures of their arrival!
I remember that at some point the Turks were said to offer lifevests to all Syrians willing to cross into Greece, allegedly on a purely humanitarian basis... I can imagine the French being so 'noble' too: it's basically what that then French minister has said, didn't he?
Bojo will surely love the idea of it once he's PM... ;)



Also that Guardian article is 3 years old.

The Le Touquet agreement will not disappear without significant notice. There is no infrastructure in Folkstone for example to build immigration and customs halls. So without infrastructure in place, Eurotunnel would have to close. Given it is the largest private space outside of Paris and employs 1000s of French nationals, even Macron is not stupid enough to make these people jobless.

But remember the Le Touquet agreement has nothing to do with the EU or with Brexit. It is matter between the French and British governments and I see no reason for it to end. Certainly no merit for it.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:35 pm

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:

It has been explained to you times and times again why future trade agreement terms cannot be negotiated before the departure. That’s a legal issue, UK cannot seat on both sides of the negotiation table, it first needs to leave its seat on the EU side.
You must know the Political Declaration is a perfect place to express what kind of “future framework for trade” UK envisage, do you ?


Yep certainly is a legal position, one that the EU is not compliant in A50 Section 1, the withdrawal agreement " must take into account of the future relationship as part of the WA" All members agreed on the process but that's all right keep telling yourself that the EU is above reproach


Ah, if you want to quote, do it right please. Art 50 section 2.
"2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament."

"setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal" : This is the "Agreement on the withdrawal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland from the European Union and the European Atomic Energy Community, as endorsed by leaders at a special meeting of the European Council on 25 November 2018". What we call generally the Withdrawal Agreement.

"taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union" : And this is the "Political Declaration setting out the framework for the future relationship between the European Union and the United Kingdom". Called, the Political Declaration (non binding).

Where's the non compliance exactly ?
No problem to discuss a framework, but the details can't be negotiated with UK seating on both sides of the table.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:16 pm

par13del wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Now the interesting thing is that once the UK leaves the EU without any sort of a deal like some now advocate, the Dubliin regulation can no longer be enforced and so France (and others like Belgium and the Netherlands) could just decide to let all those transit-migrants who want nothing but reach the UK to simply cross the channel unhindered.

Regardless of Brexit, I do not understand how the transit-migrants work, the majority of illegal migrants in Northern France trying to reach the UK and elsewhere did not land in France, additionally, freedom of movement does not apply to illegal immigrants.
So how do they get from Italy to France, why is France not sending them back to Italy as EU rules require but can use them as leverage against the UK?

If the UK leaves the EU, the issue of illegal immigrants entering France or other EU countries remains, all that would happen is that one end of the equation will be gone. Italy has been complaining for years about the burden, do they turn a blind eye and let some leave to relieve the burden, is France and others doing the same?


There are no manned borders so if you're in Italy you're in France. This is actually not true anymore as France has partially suspended the border and does man some points (it's barely noticeable, I cross it regularly). Same at crossings with Spain.

And yes, Italy does help migrants get to France, in fact they give them train tickets ! So trains get checked too. In both cases a good number are indeed sent back to Italy, causing the ire of their politicians.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:17 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
par13del wrote:
Regardless of Brexit, I do not understand how the transit-migrants work, the majority of illegal migrants in Northern France trying to reach the UK and elsewhere did not land in France, additionally, freedom of movement does not apply to illegal immigrants.
So how do they get from Italy to France?


You are clearly not fully understanding FoM and mixing it up with passport free travel:

1/ FoM is a citizen right of EU citizens only which allows them to move to and settle in any EU country.

2/ Passport free travel is something which comes with the Schengen Area and basically means all people within the area can travel from one Schengen country to another without being checked at the border.

The 2 things do not mean the same and although in many cases they do overlap, they don't have to: the UK for intance is in the EU (and thus has FoM), but is outside of the Schengenzone (and thus has border posts checking passports upon entry to the UK), but because of item 1, they can not refuse entry to EU citizens, leading many to think that leaving the EU would mean 'truely taking back control of our borders', whereas as I have tried to explain you, the very opposite may very well be true if the French play it not so nicely...

To reply to your question: those transit migrants enter the Schengen Area somewhere illegally via its almost endless costal borders in the east and south of Europe and then make their way up throughout the different Schengen memberstates pretty much unhindered, similar to how somebody landing in Scotland could make his way unhindered to the south of England...
Only when they turn up at the French coast just before their attempt to cross the Channel are they held back by French police in respect of the Touquet agreement and so the French (and the Belgians and Dutch to a lesser degree) are until now so kind to take on a massive humanitarian burden which should actually be a purely British one: i.e. it that of holding back and hosting unwanted immigrants on behalf of the UK.

Some interesting reading on the particular arrangement and the risk to it because of Brexit:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... nce-saying
Also, note how the then French minister who made the chilling treat is called…
Hold a minute! Don't you know him as somebody else today? ;)
I hope the UK is also preparing not only to create additional parking lots in the south east, but also ample space for a Dover Jungle.

FoM, Schengen, Le Touquet agreement... they all seem pretty much the same to many Brits, but they aren't!
The total lack of understanding of all the legal subtleties by most ordinary people like you yourself admit as well as the refusal to try to explain it as simple as possible to them by their politicians is going to bite the UK very badly as it will discover many many unwanted consequences of its departure from the EU (and all that goes with it) as they develop. By leaving the EU with no deal, the UK hands France (and others) the possiblility to basically control the flow of migrants towards it! How do you like the prospect of Macron holding his hand on the tap, able to tun it open anytime he wants some concessions from the British government? Remember it's just a few miles from Calais to Dover, and all that is needed is a day of good weather and few rubber boats to fill the British coasts with immigrants… and the British tabloids with pictures of their arrival!
I remember that at some point the Turks were said to offer lifevests to all Syrians willing to cross into Greece, allegedly on a purely humanitarian basis... I can imagine the French being so 'noble' too: it's basically what that then French minister has said, didn't he?
Bojo will surely love the idea of it once he's PM... ;)


Also that Guardian article is 3 years old.

The Le Touquet agreement will not disappear without significant notice. There is no infrastructure in Folkstone for example to build immigration and customs halls. So without infrastructure in place, Eurotunnel would have to close. Given it is the largest private space outside of Paris and employs 1000s of French nationals, even Macron is not stupid enough to make these people jobless.

But remember the Le Touquet agreement has nothing to do with the EU or with Brexit. It is matter between the French and British governments and I see no reason for it to end. Certainly no merit for it.


If the chunnel is closed you starve. I doubt a British PM can risk that.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:26 pm

Aesma wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:

You are clearly not fully understanding FoM and mixing it up with passport free travel:

1/ FoM is a citizen right of EU citizens only which allows them to move to and settle in any EU country.

2/ Passport free travel is something which comes with the Schengen Area and basically means all people within the area can travel from one Schengen country to another without being checked at the border.

The 2 things do not mean the same and although in many cases they do overlap, they don't have to: the UK for intance is in the EU (and thus has FoM), but is outside of the Schengenzone (and thus has border posts checking passports upon entry to the UK), but because of item 1, they can not refuse entry to EU citizens, leading many to think that leaving the EU would mean 'truely taking back control of our borders', whereas as I have tried to explain you, the very opposite may very well be true if the French play it not so nicely...

To reply to your question: those transit migrants enter the Schengen Area somewhere illegally via its almost endless costal borders in the east and south of Europe and then make their way up throughout the different Schengen memberstates pretty much unhindered, similar to how somebody landing in Scotland could make his way unhindered to the south of England...
Only when they turn up at the French coast just before their attempt to cross the Channel are they held back by French police in respect of the Touquet agreement and so the French (and the Belgians and Dutch to a lesser degree) are until now so kind to take on a massive humanitarian burden which should actually be a purely British one: i.e. it that of holding back and hosting unwanted immigrants on behalf of the UK.

Some interesting reading on the particular arrangement and the risk to it because of Brexit:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... nce-saying
Also, note how the then French minister who made the chilling treat is called…
Hold a minute! Don't you know him as somebody else today? ;)
I hope the UK is also preparing not only to create additional parking lots in the south east, but also ample space for a Dover Jungle.

FoM, Schengen, Le Touquet agreement... they all seem pretty much the same to many Brits, but they aren't!
The total lack of understanding of all the legal subtleties by most ordinary people like you yourself admit as well as the refusal to try to explain it as simple as possible to them by their politicians is going to bite the UK very badly as it will discover many many unwanted consequences of its departure from the EU (and all that goes with it) as they develop. By leaving the EU with no deal, the UK hands France (and others) the possiblility to basically control the flow of migrants towards it! How do you like the prospect of Macron holding his hand on the tap, able to tun it open anytime he wants some concessions from the British government? Remember it's just a few miles from Calais to Dover, and all that is needed is a day of good weather and few rubber boats to fill the British coasts with immigrants… and the British tabloids with pictures of their arrival!
I remember that at some point the Turks were said to offer lifevests to all Syrians willing to cross into Greece, allegedly on a purely humanitarian basis... I can imagine the French being so 'noble' too: it's basically what that then French minister has said, didn't he?
Bojo will surely love the idea of it once he's PM... ;)


Also that Guardian article is 3 years old.

The Le Touquet agreement will not disappear without significant notice. There is no infrastructure in Folkstone for example to build immigration and customs halls. So without infrastructure in place, Eurotunnel would have to close. Given it is the largest private space outside of Paris and employs 1000s of French nationals, even Macron is not stupid enough to make these people jobless.

But remember the Le Touquet agreement has nothing to do with the EU or with Brexit. It is matter between the French and British governments and I see no reason for it to end. Certainly no merit for it.


If the chunnel is closed you starve. I doubt a British PM can risk that.


Well there is no infrastructure in place in Folkstone for immigration and customs checks. It would take about 18-24 months for that. Plus not convinced it could be done easily with the space in Folkstone.

No PM in the UK would ever allow that. Everything would have to route through Dover and a reopened Ramsgate.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:36 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:

It has been explained to you times and times again why future trade agreement terms cannot be negotiated before the departure. That’s a legal issue, UK cannot seat on both sides of the negotiation table, it first needs to leave its seat on the EU side.
You must know the Political Declaration is a perfect place to express what kind of “future framework for trade” UK envisage, do you ?


Yep certainly is a legal position, one that the EU is not compliant in A50 Section 1, the withdrawal agreement " must take into account of the future relationship as part of the WA" All members agreed on the process but that's all right keep telling yourself that the EU is above reproach


Ah, if you want to quote, do it right please. Art 50 section 2.
"2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament."

"setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal" : This is the "Agreement on the withdrawal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland from the European Union and the European Atomic Energy Community, as endorsed by leaders at a special meeting of the European Council on 25 November 2018". What we call generally the Withdrawal Agreement.

"taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union" : And this is the "Political Declaration setting out the framework for the future relationship between the European Union and the United Kingdom". Called, the Political Declaration (non binding).

Where's the non compliance exactly ?
No problem to discuss a framework, but the details can't be negotiated with UK seating on both sides of the table.



Well you got me on a typo, have only been quoteing that very passage for some time.

As you point out the political declaration is non binding you can write the sky is black in it but it means nothing,the only legal aspect of the withdrawal is the process within A50, both should have been done in parallel as the border issues would have been solved within the context of the future relationship. The political declaration is a puff piece in the greater scheme of things.
 
KLDC10
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:05 pm

Aesma wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:

You are clearly not fully understanding FoM and mixing it up with passport free travel:

1/ FoM is a citizen right of EU citizens only which allows them to move to and settle in any EU country.

2/ Passport free travel is something which comes with the Schengen Area and basically means all people within the area can travel from one Schengen country to another without being checked at the border.

The 2 things do not mean the same and although in many cases they do overlap, they don't have to: the UK for intance is in the EU (and thus has FoM), but is outside of the Schengenzone (and thus has border posts checking passports upon entry to the UK), but because of item 1, they can not refuse entry to EU citizens, leading many to think that leaving the EU would mean 'truely taking back control of our borders', whereas as I have tried to explain you, the very opposite may very well be true if the French play it not so nicely...

To reply to your question: those transit migrants enter the Schengen Area somewhere illegally via its almost endless costal borders in the east and south of Europe and then make their way up throughout the different Schengen memberstates pretty much unhindered, similar to how somebody landing in Scotland could make his way unhindered to the south of England...
Only when they turn up at the French coast just before their attempt to cross the Channel are they held back by French police in respect of the Touquet agreement and so the French (and the Belgians and Dutch to a lesser degree) are until now so kind to take on a massive humanitarian burden which should actually be a purely British one: i.e. it that of holding back and hosting unwanted immigrants on behalf of the UK.

Some interesting reading on the particular arrangement and the risk to it because of Brexit:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... nce-saying
Also, note how the then French minister who made the chilling treat is called…
Hold a minute! Don't you know him as somebody else today? ;)
I hope the UK is also preparing not only to create additional parking lots in the south east, but also ample space for a Dover Jungle.

FoM, Schengen, Le Touquet agreement... they all seem pretty much the same to many Brits, but they aren't!
The total lack of understanding of all the legal subtleties by most ordinary people like you yourself admit as well as the refusal to try to explain it as simple as possible to them by their politicians is going to bite the UK very badly as it will discover many many unwanted consequences of its departure from the EU (and all that goes with it) as they develop. By leaving the EU with no deal, the UK hands France (and others) the possiblility to basically control the flow of migrants towards it! How do you like the prospect of Macron holding his hand on the tap, able to tun it open anytime he wants some concessions from the British government? Remember it's just a few miles from Calais to Dover, and all that is needed is a day of good weather and few rubber boats to fill the British coasts with immigrants… and the British tabloids with pictures of their arrival!
I remember that at some point the Turks were said to offer lifevests to all Syrians willing to cross into Greece, allegedly on a purely humanitarian basis... I can imagine the French being so 'noble' too: it's basically what that then French minister has said, didn't he?
Bojo will surely love the idea of it once he's PM... ;)


Also that Guardian article is 3 years old.

The Le Touquet agreement will not disappear without significant notice. There is no infrastructure in Folkstone for example to build immigration and customs halls. So without infrastructure in place, Eurotunnel would have to close. Given it is the largest private space outside of Paris and employs 1000s of French nationals, even Macron is not stupid enough to make these people jobless.

But remember the Le Touquet agreement has nothing to do with the EU or with Brexit. It is matter between the French and British governments and I see no reason for it to end. Certainly no merit for it.


If the chunnel is closed you starve. I doubt a British PM can risk that.


Oh yes of course, how did we survive before the Chunnel was built?

I suggest you think twice before spewing such nonsense in future.
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:39 pm

A101 wrote:
As you point out the political declaration is non binding you can write the sky is black in it but it means nothing,the only legal aspect of the withdrawal is the process within A50, both should have been done in parallel as the border issues would have been solved within the context of the future relationship. The political declaration is a puff piece in the greater scheme of things.

You know, sticking to the letter of a non-binding stuff is not something unheard of :mrgreen:

As you didn't answer to it I understand your "non compliance" claim is dead? Like the smart border 2.0 ?
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:18 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
You know, sticking to the letter of a non-binding stuff is not something unheard of :mrgreen:

As you didn't answer to it I understand your "non compliance" claim is dead? Like the smart border 2.0 ?


Political declaration is about intent between the two parties, A50 is the legal process which must be followed under the treaty, A50 is the compliance framework, so you above statement is DOA.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 9497
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:13 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Not completely correct.

British Immigration Officers can refuse entry to EU citizens under certain circumstances (if they are subject to a Deportation Order, if there are child welfare issues and so forth) we can and do refuse entry.

Additionally a national of an EU country must confirm their identity and nationality at the Border. I use to have many an amusing argument with German, Belgium and Dutch nationals at the border in Calais that had forgotten their passports and ID cards and felt showing me a credit card or a photo of their ID card/ passport was satisfactory evidence of nationality (which was not enough to satisfy me).

They were most upset when I refused entry to the UK and told to come back with the proper ID.


So you were a border patrol agent. So much for a high-level civil servant. Now we know how to weigh your arguments.....
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:32 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
A101 wrote:
As you point out the political declaration is non binding you can write the sky is black in it but it means nothing,the only legal aspect of the withdrawal is the process within A50, both should have been done in parallel as the border issues would have been solved within the context of the future relationship. The political declaration is a puff piece in the greater scheme of things.

You know, sticking to the letter of a non-binding stuff is not something unheard of :mrgreen:

As you didn't answer to it I understand your "non compliance" claim is dead? Like the smart border 2.0 ?



Sorry I forgot to say my piece about smart border 2.0,

it can only work if both sides want to make it work, why wasn’t border infrastructure mentioned within the document “Preparing for the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union on 29 March 2019” for toad transport?

I’ll give you a hint because the ROI and the UK are more in alignment than you think, it’s only Merkel and Macron and the EU negotiations team who are standing in the way of the border issues as they see it as a bargaining chip in the overall negotiations, I have said in the past it’s is clever of them as it’s looking after their overall interests, but it’s not in the overall interests of the ROI. Internal trade from memory accounts for about 1% of overall trade between the EU/UK but is significantly important within the island itself, the EU talks tuff on respecting the GFA but actions speak louder than words.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:39 pm

Dutchy wrote:

So you were a border patrol agent. So much for a high-level civil servant. Now we know how to weigh your arguments.....



Were is the past tense of the verb, as in not in the present, once again you bias comes thru thick and fast, you have no idea of his present role.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:00 am

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Not completely correct.

British Immigration Officers can refuse entry to EU citizens under certain circumstances (if they are subject to a Deportation Order, if there are child welfare issues and so forth) we can and do refuse entry.

Additionally a national of an EU country must confirm their identity and nationality at the Border. I use to have many an amusing argument with German, Belgium and Dutch nationals at the border in Calais that had forgotten their passports and ID cards and felt showing me a credit card or a photo of their ID card/ passport was satisfactory evidence of nationality (which was not enough to satisfy me).

They were most upset when I refused entry to the UK and told to come back with the proper ID.


So you were a border patrol agent. So much for a high-level civil servant. Now we know how to weigh your arguments.....


Actually I was senior office some years ago.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:00 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

So you were a border patrol agent. So much for a high-level civil servant. Now we know how to weigh your arguments.....



Were is the past tense of the verb, as in not in the present, once again you bias comes thru thick and fast, you have no idea of his present role.


I have asked, just as I have asked you what you do, no answer, so I deduct from the scares information you or noviorbis77 are given us. It is relevant for the discussion to give us context were you are coming from.
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:01 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Not completely correct.

British Immigration Officers can refuse entry to EU citizens under certain circumstances (if they are subject to a Deportation Order, if there are child welfare issues and so forth) we can and do refuse entry.

Additionally a national of an EU country must confirm their identity and nationality at the Border. I use to have many an amusing argument with German, Belgium and Dutch nationals at the border in Calais that had forgotten their passports and ID cards and felt showing me a credit card or a photo of their ID card/ passport was satisfactory evidence of nationality (which was not enough to satisfy me).

They were most upset when I refused entry to the UK and told to come back with the proper ID.


So you were a border patrol agent. So much for a high-level civil servant. Now we know how to weigh your arguments.....


Actually I was senior office some years ago.


So what do you do now? Just a department
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Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:02 am

It is so fun to read you guys when your Brexit representative just lost the election :)
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:28 am

An interesting debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Rory Stewart on Human Rights. This is the Rees-Mogg the Brexitremist all follow.

The UK is the only advanced democracy which hasn't got a constitution as such, it is a far more fluid system as we all know. The constitutional law could be changed in the UK with a simple majority at a Monday afternoon, in all other advanced democracies the threshold to change it is far more difficult and is, in essence, the protection for citizens against a whip of parliament. And with the Brexit, the protection for UK citizens from the European institutions will not be there anymore.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:30 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

So you were a border patrol agent. So much for a high-level civil servant. Now we know how to weigh your arguments.....



Were is the past tense of the verb, as in not in the present, once again you bias comes thru thick and fast, you have no idea of his present role.


I have asked, just as I have asked you what you do, no answer, so I deduct from the scares information you or noviorbis77 are given us. It is relevant for the discussion to give us context were you are coming from.


What I do is irrelevant to the discussion, just like I have never asked you your personal information, if a member whishes to do so you should respect what information members provide. To belittle people does nothing to advance your argument.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:38 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


Were is the past tense of the verb, as in not in the present, once again you bias comes thru thick and fast, you have no idea of his present role.


I have asked, just as I have asked you what you do, no answer, so I deduct from the scares information you or noviorbis77 are given us. It is relevant for the discussion to give us context were you are coming from.


What I do is irrelevant to the discussion, just like I have never asked you your personal information, if a member whishes to do so you should respect what information members provide. To belittle people does nothing to advance your argument.


So you say, I think it is relevant to the discussion, just as it is relevant that you have a dual citizenship and plan to move from the UK in due time. It is known that the speeches Farage made during the outcome of the referendum, influenced the financial markets and the information was fat to him by people whom greatly benefited from this. We don't know if you stand to gain financially from a hard Brexit, we don't know if your sector is going to be hit or actually flourishes. If it is the latter, we can all sympathize with the idea you at least have some rationale for wanting to push your country of the cliff edge, it would be very self-center, but there is at least a rationale.
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:51 am

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
A101 wrote:
As you point out the political declaration is non binding you can write the sky is black in it but it means nothing,the only legal aspect of the withdrawal is the process within A50, both should have been done in parallel as the border issues would have been solved within the context of the future relationship. The political declaration is a puff piece in the greater scheme of things.

You know, sticking to the letter of a non-binding stuff is not something unheard of :mrgreen:

As you didn't answer to it I understand your "non compliance" claim is dead? Like the smart border 2.0 ?



Sorry I forgot to say my piece about smart border 2.0,

it can only work if both sides want to make it work, why wasn’t border infrastructure mentioned within the document “Preparing for the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union on 29 March 2019” for toad transport?

I’ll give you a hint because the ROI and the UK are more in alignment than you think, it’s only Merkel and Macron and the EU negotiations team who are standing in the way of the border issues as they see it as a bargaining chip in the overall negotiations, I have said in the past it’s is clever of them as it’s looking after their overall interests, but it’s not in the overall interests of the ROI. Internal trade from memory accounts for about 1% of overall trade between the EU/UK but is significantly important within the island itself, the EU talks tuff on respecting the GFA but actions speak louder than words.


You must be kidding me. Did you even read the link I gave in post #983 ? In 3 point it explains why the smart border 2.0 can't do the trick for the Irish border.
Concerns are not at all coming from France or Germany as you want to believe, in this case the post is written by : "Katie Daughen is Head of Brexit Policy at the British Irish Chamber of Commerce. She coordinates the Chamber’s activities in relation to Brexit and provides research and support to members on this evolving issue. "

It is not mentioned anywhere because that is not a workable solution, it fails to address a lot of issues. I offer you the link again, please read it :
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/03/ ... rt-enough/

Reading you it only seems to be a problem of goodwill, if everybody believes enough in it then it will works. What world do you think you are living in ?
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:59 am

Olddog wrote:
It is so fun to read you guys when your Brexit representative just lost the election :)


What are you reading?
I imagine you are referring to the byelection that labour won by only 683 votes the last time I looked to a party that was only set up what 7-8 weeks ago, hardly a significant victory. Should we hold another vote because the winning margin was so small too.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:20 am

Grizzly410 wrote:
A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
You know, sticking to the letter of a non-binding stuff is not something unheard of :mrgreen:

As you didn't answer to it I understand your "non compliance" claim is dead? Like the smart border 2.0 ?



Sorry I forgot to say my piece about smart border 2.0,

it can only work if both sides want to make it work, why wasn’t border infrastructure mentioned within the document “Preparing for the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union on 29 March 2019” for toad transport?

I’ll give you a hint because the ROI and the UK are more in alignment than you think, it’s only Merkel and Macron and the EU negotiations team who are standing in the way of the border issues as they see it as a bargaining chip in the overall negotiations, I have said in the past it’s is clever of them as it’s looking after their overall interests, but it’s not in the overall interests of the ROI. Internal trade from memory accounts for about 1% of overall trade between the EU/UK but is significantly important within the island itself, the EU talks tuff on respecting the GFA but actions speak louder than words.


You must be kidding me. Did you even read the link I gave in post #983 ? In 3 point it explains why the smart border 2.0 can't do the trick for the Irish border.
Concerns are not at all coming from France or Germany as you want to believe, in this case the post is written by : "Katie Daughen is Head of Brexit Policy at the British Irish Chamber of Commerce. She coordinates the Chamber’s activities in relation to Brexit and provides research and support to members on this evolving issue. "

It is not mentioned anywhere because that is not a workable solution, it fails to address a lot of issues. I offer you the link again, please read it :
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/03/ ... rt-enough/

Reading you it only seems to be a problem of goodwill, if everybody believes enough in it then it will works. What world do you think you are living in ?



Of course it’s going to relying on the good will between the ROI/UK because the intent is to put up no infrastructure and rely on electronic means, but what you keep forgetting it’s the EU saying if a no deal exist takes place than a hard border has to happen, the report indicates that if the UK leaves on no deal that the ROI are not preparing to put in a hard border. It is the ROI and UK trying to achieve that objective it’s Merkel and Macron who is apply pressure about preparing a hard border, so at this stage all the infrastructure is most likely going to end up on the EU side of the border under pressure from Brussels & CO

What I am interested to see is what will Brussels do if ROI ignores the order to harden the border.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:29 am

A101 wrote:
Of course it’s going to relying on the good will between the ROI/UK because the intent is to put up no infrastructure and rely on electronic means, but what you keep forgetting it’s the EU saying if a no deal exist takes place than a hard border has to happen, the report indicates that if the UK leaves on no deal that the ROI are not preparing to put in a hard border. It is the ROI and UK trying to achieve that objective it’s Merkel and Macron who is apply pressure about preparing a hard border, so at this stage all the infrastructure is most likely going to end up on the EU side of the border under pressure from Brussels & CO

What I am interested to see is what will Brussels do if ROI ignores the order to harden the border.


Ok, duly noted that you decline to answer me, fine we leave it for now and have all our own thoughts on what you do and how it is tied in with the Brexitremist views.

Now, leave that to aside, what will the EU do, it will put up a hard border between Ireland and mainland EU. The EU is not going to be bullied into something it doesn't want. The question is, will Ireland be bullied by the Brexitremist or not? Remember the UK is causing the problem, not the EU.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:30 am

A101 wrote:
What I am interested to see is what will Brussels do if ROI ignores the order to harden the border.


Put a couple giant refugee camps right off N1 and N2, a couple hundred metres from the border.

No need for fencing on the North side.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:32 am

More project fear: Ford will close an engine factory in the UK, Bridgend in 2020, 1.700 jobs will be lost.

Source in Dutch
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marcelh
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:32 am

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
A101 wrote:


Sorry I forgot to say my piece about smart border 2.0,

it can only work if both sides want to make it work, why wasn’t border infrastructure mentioned within the document “Preparing for the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union on 29 March 2019” for toad transport?

I’ll give you a hint because the ROI and the UK are more in alignment than you think, it’s only Merkel and Macron and the EU negotiations team who are standing in the way of the border issues as they see it as a bargaining chip in the overall negotiations, I have said in the past it’s is clever of them as it’s looking after their overall interests, but it’s not in the overall interests of the ROI. Internal trade from memory accounts for about 1% of overall trade between the EU/UK but is significantly important within the island itself, the EU talks tuff on respecting the GFA but actions speak louder than words.


You must be kidding me. Did you even read the link I gave in post #983 ? In 3 point it explains why the smart border 2.0 can't do the trick for the Irish border.
Concerns are not at all coming from France or Germany as you want to believe, in this case the post is written by : "Katie Daughen is Head of Brexit Policy at the British Irish Chamber of Commerce. She coordinates the Chamber’s activities in relation to Brexit and provides research and support to members on this evolving issue. "

It is not mentioned anywhere because that is not a workable solution, it fails to address a lot of issues. I offer you the link again, please read it :
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/03/ ... rt-enough/

Reading you it only seems to be a problem of goodwill, if everybody believes enough in it then it will works. What world do you think you are living in ?



Of course it’s going to relying on the good will between the ROI/UK because the intent is to put up no infrastructure and rely on electronic means, but what you keep forgetting it’s the EU saying if a no deal exist takes place than a hard border has to happen, the report indicates that if the UK leaves on no deal that the ROI are not preparing to put in a hard border. It is the ROI and UK trying to achieve that objective it’s Merkel and Macron who is apply pressure about preparing a hard border, so at this stage all the infrastructure is most likely going to end up on the EU side of the border under pressure from Brussels & CO

What I am interested to see is what will Brussels do if ROI ignores the order to harden the border.

Placing a hard border between ROI and the EU?
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:56 am

marcelh wrote:




Placing a hard border between ROI and the EU?


Silly me for think that any one could not distinguish that ROI is EU boundary
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:06 am

Dutchy wrote:

have all our own thoughts on what you do and how it is tied in with the Brexitremist views.



That would make for interesting reading, maybe the start of a plot for a Dan Brown novel.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:12 am

A101 wrote:
I imagine you are referring to the byelection that labour won by only 683 votes


Which was actually a 12.5% increase in their majority compared to the 2017 election. So the reality isn't that Labour "only just held on", but rather that a brexit candidate failed miserably to beat Labour, that's Labour, in a fairly marginal seat.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:15 am

Olddog wrote:
It is so fun to read you guys when your Brexit representative just lost the election :)


Quite the contrary. The Labour candidate was also pro-Brexit and the last thing we want right now is for the Blairites in the Labour Party to use a by-election loss as an excuse to oust Jeremy Corbyn and install a leader who will go all-out for a Second Referendum.

In a similar manner, we don't particularly want to see remain-supporting Tory MPs facing deselection motions in their constituencies, as it reduces their incentive to support the government in a vote of confidence, should one be brought before the House of Commons.

Maintaining the Tory Government in power until at least 31st October is critical and requires strategic thinking. After that, all bets are off.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:17 am

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
I imagine you are referring to the byelection that labour won by only 683 votes


Which was actually a 12.5% increase in their majority compared to the 2017 election. So the reality isn't that Labour "only just held on", but rather that a brexit candidate failed miserably to beat Labour, that's Labour, in a fairly marginal seat.


Labour's vote share was down by 17%. That's not a resounding vote of confidence in the Labour leadership, but it's enough to keep Corbyn in charge of the party, so that's good.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:51 am

KLDC10 wrote:
Oh yes of course, how did we survive before the Chunnel was built?

I suggest you think twice before spewing such nonsense in future.


You had other, established supply chains.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:10 pm

Aside from that, Dominic Raab (dumb domie) being called a dictator for wanting to shut parliament and govern alone for a hard Brexit.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/po ... tator-tory

Also : https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ns-resigns

UK official in charge of Brexit border plans resigns

Karen Wheeler’s resignation stokes fears the UK will not be ready for a no-deal Brexit by October
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:22 pm

A101 wrote:
Of course it’s going to relying on the good will between the ROI/UK because the intent is to put up no infrastructure and rely on electronic means, but what you keep forgetting it’s the EU saying if a no deal exist takes place than a hard border has to happen, the report indicates that if the UK leaves on no deal that the ROI are not preparing to put in a hard border. It is the ROI and UK trying to achieve that objective it’s Merkel and Macron who is apply pressure about preparing a hard border, so at this stage all the infrastructure is most likely going to end up on the EU side of the border under pressure from Brussels & CO

What I am interested to see is what will Brussels do if ROI ignores the order to harden the border.


:talktothehand: A101.
- You said there is solution other than the current backstop then presented the Smart Border 2.0.
- I show you why it can’t work.
- And now you answer shifting the argument on what happen in case of no deal ???? Nice try to get out of the rut unnoticed !

So now you’re speculating on what would happen in case of no deal if ROI refuses to put in place the necessary controls at its border ? At least here you can say what you want nobody can proves you wrong eh ? For me it’s super easy, they’ll do what needs to be done WHEN they'll know what needs to be done !!
Let’s keep speculating : that’s useless anyway, the coming BRINO will ensure the border remains open. See? :mischievous:
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:26 pm

Johnson misconduct case thrown out of court: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48554853
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:16 pm

 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:44 pm

So with Theresa May gone, we'll have to wait for the next Prime Minister before the next step can be taken. Till then, nothing will happen with Brexit.

@Olddog, time for the thread, part seven......
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:05 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:

:talktothehand: A101.

Goes to show you do not practice what you preach

Grizzly410 wrote:
- You said there is solution other than the current backstop then presented the Smart Border 2.0.


I didnt offer it as a final solution I pointed to a EU report.

Grizzly410 wrote:
- I show you why it can’t work.


No you have not done that either

Grizzly410 wrote:
- And now you answer shifting the argument on what happen in case of no deal ???? Nice try to get out of the rut unnoticed !


It’s is pertinent to the end result of the UK exiting on no deal, the very fact you are trying to dismiss it shows you do not look at the big picture


Grizzly410 wrote:
So now you’re speculating on what would happen in case of no deal if ROI refuses to put in place the necessary controls at its border ? At least here you can say what you want nobody can proves you wrong eh ? For me it’s super easy, they’ll do what needs to be done WHEN they'll know what needs to be done !!
Let’s keep speculating : that’s useless anyway, the coming BRINO will ensure the border remains open. See? :mischievous:


Well it’s all speculation because you and I are not in a position of authority to implement anything, and secondly you have proved nothing, all I showed was a report produced by the EU on smart border 2.0.

In the event of no-deal the people who actually worked in the field with the system say that the UK can achieve the frictionless border as it is starting from a clean sheet but they also stress it can only be done with collaboration if both sides trust each other, well so far Brussels is doing everything in its power to be as difficult as possabile on the issue because when it comes to the ROI it’s all empty rhetoric as they only want one solution and that is for the UK to remain

The link you provided I have actually read before and reaffirms my previously held statement that the border issues needed to addressed through the the future relationship untill that is sorted you are putting the cart before the horse. And since the EU refused to negotiate well you know what’s happened we are where we are. The EU has more than one priority when they started the process of withdrawal by the UK.

As for the speculation on what will happen if the ROI refuses to put a hard border if no deal happens, that has real implications on not just the ROI, well we will see how far brussels can then devolve into the sovereign decision making of the ROI, and that is one of the major concerns of a more political united EU for myself and others.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:36 pm

I've fed the troll enough. Bye A101.
A101 wrote:

I didnt offer it as a final solution I pointed to a EU report.

A101 wrote:
well it’s all speculation because you and I are not in a position of authority to implement anything, and secondly you have proved nothing, all I showed was a report produced by the EU on smart border 2.0.



"Firstly, it should be clarified that this is not an “EU report” as some have alluded to but rather a report that was presented by its author to the European Parliament’s Committee on Constitutional Affairs (AFCO) for consideration."
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:08 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Bye A101.


:rotfl: :wave:


Grizzly410 wrote:
Firstly, it should be clarified that this is not an “EU report” as some have alluded to but rather a report that was presented by its author to the European Parliament’s Committee on Constitutional Affairs (AFCO) for consideration."


It wasn’t an unsolicited report presented to the EU, it was actually asked and paid for by the EU

“This research paper was requested by the European Parliament's Committee on Constitutional Affairs and was commissioned, overseen and published by the Policy Department for Citizens’ Rights and Constitutional Affairs. Policy Departments provide independent expertise, both in-house and externally, to support European Parliament committees and other parliamentary bodies in shaping legislation and exercising democratic scrutiny over EU external and internal policies.“
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:03 am

sabenapilot wrote:
You are clearly not fully understanding FoM and mixing it up with passport free travel:

1/ FoM is a citizen right of EU citizens only which allows them to move to and settle in any EU country.

2/ Passport free travel is something which comes with the Schengen Area and basically means all people within the area can travel from one Schengen country to another without being checked at the border.

My mistake, I assumed the bulk of the immigrants were illegals who arrived on the boats picked up in the Med and were detained and or housed in camps by the nation in which they landed, was unaware that a lot of them had entered the EU with Schengen Visa. I am aware that within the zone there are no borders.
I was not considering FOM as that applies to citizens of the union who would have proper credentials, no need to try to hop trucks in Calais or elsewhere.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:13 am

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
Bye A101.


:rotfl: :wave:


Grizzly410 wrote:
Firstly, it should be clarified that this is not an “EU report” as some have alluded to but rather a report that was presented by its author to the European Parliament’s Committee on Constitutional Affairs (AFCO) for consideration."


It wasn’t an unsolicited report presented to the EU, it was actually asked and paid for by the EU

“This research paper was requested by the European Parliament's Committee on Constitutional Affairs and was commissioned, overseen and published by the Policy Department for Citizens’ Rights and Constitutional Affairs. Policy Departments provide independent expertise, both in-house and externally, to support European Parliament committees and other parliamentary bodies in shaping legislation and exercising democratic scrutiny over EU external and internal policies.“


This puts your whole narrative in question that the EU isn't trying to come up with a solution but is trying to blackmail the UK in staying within the EU, no doesn't it. You can't have it both ways.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:57 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
Bye A101.


:rotfl: :wave:


Grizzly410 wrote:
Firstly, it should be clarified that this is not an “EU report” as some have alluded to but rather a report that was presented by its author to the European Parliament’s Committee on Constitutional Affairs (AFCO) for consideration."


It wasn’t an unsolicited report presented to the EU, it was actually asked and paid for by the EU

“This research paper was requested by the European Parliament's Committee on Constitutional Affairs and was commissioned, overseen and published by the Policy Department for Citizens’ Rights and Constitutional Affairs. Policy Departments provide independent expertise, both in-house and externally, to support European Parliament committees and other parliamentary bodies in shaping legislation and exercising democratic scrutiny over EU external and internal policies.“


This puts your whole narrative in question that the EU isn't trying to come up with a solution but is trying to blackmail the UK in staying within the EU, no doesn't it. You can't have it both ways.


Care to elaborate, blackmail is such a strong word.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:19 am

par13del wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
You are clearly not fully understanding FoM and mixing it up with passport free travel:

1/ FoM is a citizen right of EU citizens only which allows them to move to and settle in any EU country.

2/ Passport free travel is something which comes with the Schengen Area and basically means all people within the area can travel from one Schengen country to another without being checked at the border.


My mistake, I assumed the bulk of the immigrants were illegals who arrived on the boats picked up in the Med and were detained and or housed in camps by the nation in which they landed, was unaware that a lot of them had entered the EU with Schengen Visa.


In the assumption that most migrants to Europe are indeed picked from their boats in the Med and do not make it into Europe completely undetected, they are mostly not detained in camps like you think they are!

Yes, there are a few of those migrant sites in Greece and the south of Italy for purely administrative reasons (because of the massive influx of immigrants), but other than there, the general rule throughout Europe is that migrants are simply registered, their asylum request processed and then sent off to some social housing and humanitarian assistance providers further inland prending a formal decision.
It is during this procedure that they can continue freely along their path to their final destination, which is often the UK, as in many cases the migrants aren't very interested in staying in the first safe place where they made the demand for asylum (Greece, south of Italy, etc) of course.

Now, currently the French are so kind to stop them at the channel, but as Macron has already pointed out quite a few times, this kindness might change in future and that would be a HUGE problem to those in Britain claiming to be taking back control of the British borders, because let's face it: you can't effectively control a border if the neighbouring country is not willing to keep people away from that border in the first place!
No sea is ever going to be deep enough, no dessert wide enough, no wall high enough unless you turn it into a Berlin Wall type of border, that is, including mine fields and all other niceties.

It's why the EU has a deal with Turkey in place to keep potential migrants away from its shores and why even bigmouth Trump has now struck a very similar deal with Mexico to have them effectively do the same kind of work for him well before migrants to the USA ever show up at his border wall, so it's completely insane to believe a channel crossing of just a couple of miles with a few patrol vessels in it could effecitvely allow Great Britain to take control of its borders: in reality the door to the UK is wide open by geographical design, and the only thing preventing the UK to be overrun is the fact that fellow EU countries now make sure very few people manage to make it through the door for you!

The UK is going to have to rely heavily on the French, the Belgians, the Dutch and others in the Schengen area to keep migrants away from its borders in future too, similar to how they themselves rely on others to do the same thing at their borders too: Britain really is no exception to this, Island or not: the Med and the Sonoran dessert are far bigger obstacles than the Channel, I should think?
And let's not get fooled: Britain is going to start to pay the EU for that service in future once it's out and thus no longer part of the club which defends its member's interests, of course!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:56 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

:rotfl: :wave:




It wasn’t an unsolicited report presented to the EU, it was actually asked and paid for by the EU

“This research paper was requested by the European Parliament's Committee on Constitutional Affairs and was commissioned, overseen and published by the Policy Department for Citizens’ Rights and Constitutional Affairs. Policy Departments provide independent expertise, both in-house and externally, to support European Parliament committees and other parliamentary bodies in shaping legislation and exercising democratic scrutiny over EU external and internal policies.“


This puts your whole narrative in question that the EU isn't trying to come up with a solution but is trying to blackmail the UK in staying within the EU, no doesn't it. You can't have it both ways.


Care to elaborate, blackmail is such a strong word.


So is accusing the EU to keep the UK deliberately hostage with the backstop, which you did. You do not think it is necessary to elaborate on that. Kind of strange to uphold that threshold, if you do not obey it yourself.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:27 pm

Dutchy wrote:

So is accusing the EU to keep the UK deliberately hostage with the backstop, which you did. You do not think it is necessary to elaborate on that. Kind of strange to uphold that threshold, if you do not obey it yourself.


Ok.....if the UK signs the WA and the backstop is triggered, can the UK freely withdraw from the the union without the consent of the EU?
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:32 pm

Yes if the UK abide by the international rues and treaties. And of course be ready to see trade deals under consideration.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins

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