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zkojq
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:36 pm

Dogman wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
So the next Tory PM will be the one comparing the EU to Nazi Germany or the one comparing the EU to the Soviet Union. Good luck with those "renegotiations"! :rotfl:


I think that the USSR comparison was very close to reality.


As someone who actually did live in the USSR, let me tell you, that you are either being disingenuous, or don't know what you are talking about.


It's funny how that particular user will make nonsensical comments like above but then go on to moan about the tyrrany of living under ECJ jurisdiction. Make up your mind for goodness sake!

Olddog wrote:
So the brits that pretend to lecture the EU on democracy, will have the next PM chosen by 160 000/ 45 000 000 = 0,35 % of the electorate.... Fake democracy.


Most of whom are white, male, 60 years + and overwhelmingly from the gentry! #TakeBackControl
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KLDC10
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:52 pm

zkojq wrote:
[It's funny how that particular user will make nonsensical comments like above but then go on to moan about the tyrrany of living under ECJ jurisdiction. Make up your mind for goodness sake!


I don't think I've ever mentioned the ECJ, but since you bring it up, there is no contradiction. Leaving the jurisdiction of the ECJ is one of the primary attractions of Brexit.
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zkojq
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:42 am

KLDC10 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
[It's funny how that particular user will make nonsensical comments like above but then go on to moan about the tyrrany of living under ECJ jurisdiction. Make up your mind for goodness sake!


I don't think I've ever mentioned the ECJ, but since you bring it up, there is no contradiction.

There absolutely is. Anybody with half a brain knows that a strong independent judiciary is the antithesis of a totalitarian state. :roll:

KLDC10 wrote:
Leaving the jurisdiction of the ECJ is one of the primary attractions of Brexit.

Remind us again which ECJ ruling you're most excited to have overturned?
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:56 am

zkojq wrote:

KLDC10 wrote:
Leaving the jurisdiction of the ECJ is one of the primary attractions of Brexit.


Remind us again which ECJ ruling you're most excited to have overturned?


Your confusing the reasoning behind Brexit is the fact want the UK government to regain supreme sovereign control or in other words parliamentary supremacy with no other institution be able to overrule UK interests.

A case in point, In 1988 Margaret Thatcher passed the Merchant Shipping Act to prevent Spanish fishermen who had set up a British company (Factortame Ltd) from fishing in UK waters. It added new conditions for registration which the Factortame boats were refused. But the company challenged this law under the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and won. The European Court of Justice found that the Merchant Shipping Act was incompatible with the provision of ‘Freedom of Establishment’ in the EU treaty and the Act of Parliament was suspended.

Because the European Communities Act 1972 places EU law on a higher footing than UK law this is what it mean when we regain our sovereignty of Parliament and our judicial system will be the supreme institutions not any institutions outside the UK
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:12 am

A101 wrote:
Please go back and show where I have said that I object to the remarks all I have shown is that the EU are not saints when it comes to making inappropriate remarks from its senior statesmen.

That's the thing: Tusk's remark was absolutely appropriate!

Donald Tusk:
I’ve been wondering what that special place in hell looks like, for those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it out safely.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:17 am

Meanwhile, as BoJo entertains us all with his promises of a quick and tough renegotiation to get into power, the EU27 have signed off on their negotiating strategy with him already on a summit in Brussels yesterday and are thus AGAIN several steps ahead of the UK! In a nutshell:
1- the EU will keep BoJo away from Brussels initially, officially because there's no EU Commission yet, and send him on a tour of the capitals instead.
2- there he will be told by each PM and President the EU is their sole negotiator, but another delay is possible for them if time is key.
3- then by end of September, BoJo will be invited to Brussels and kept busy till AFTER the Tory Party annual Conference, so nothing can be shot down prematurely from the conference stage.
4- the EU has confirmed it is NOT willing to change even a single letter to the WA, only the political declaration on the future framework: it is said to be willing to offer to include a CU as a way to prevent the backstop from being used, combined with other tools to keep the UK aligned with the EU.
5- with just days till Brexit day, they expect BoJo will ask for another delay to have votes on all this and are currently looking till which date this extension could be accommodated, since there will be no time left to even see the UK conclude the normal parliamentary work on all this, let alone conclude the preparations for a no deal departure.
6- Meanwhile, the EU itself will be ready to enforce the full set of no deal measures upon the UK the minute after Brexit, by the end of this summer and will reject demands to delay those in case of an unprepared, no deal Brexit.
In short: they will burn BoJo the same way as TM... elections in autumn are very likely according to the EU and 'regime change' might happen as a consequence of them.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:12 am

sabenapilot wrote:
In short: they will burn BoJo the same way as TM... elections in autumn are very likely according to the EU and 'regime change' might happen as a consequence of them.



An interesting choice of words, you make it out like we are part of the axis of evil and are preparing for war with the UK
 
AeroVega
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:31 am

Elections may cause regime change. That's not news to you, is it?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:46 am

sabenapilot wrote:
In short: they will burn BoJo the same way as TM... elections in autumn are very likely according to the EU and 'regime change' might happen as a consequence of them.


No BoJo will burn himself if he insists to cherry pick. He wants a better deal, whatever that even means.
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:48 am

A101 wrote:
An interesting choice of words, you make it out like we are part of the axis of evil and are preparing for war with the UK


Well, Brexitremist (and most of the Torrie party it seems are just that), kind of are, or at least don't care about what happens to the UK.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:31 am

AeroVega wrote:
Elections may cause regime change. That's not news to you, is it?




Regime change infers to either coup d'état, revolution and or military action, change of government by elections is at the free will of the electorate
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:37 am

Dutchy wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
In short: they will burn BoJo the same way as TM... elections in autumn are very likely according to the EU and 'regime change' might happen as a consequence of them.


No BoJo will burn himself if he insists to cherry pick. He wants a better deal, whatever that even means.


Better deal in this instance refers to a expiration date of the withdrawal agreement and start and conclude the negotiations on the future relationship, not hard to figure out the intent.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:38 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
An interesting choice of words, you make it out like we are part of the axis of evil and are preparing for war with the UK


Well, Brexitremist (and most of the Torrie party it seems are just that), kind of are, or at least don't care about what happens to the UK.



Really and you base that on?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:41 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
In short: they will burn BoJo the same way as TM... elections in autumn are very likely according to the EU and 'regime change' might happen as a consequence of them.


No BoJo will burn himself if he insists to cherry pick. He wants a better deal, whatever that even means.


Better deal in this instance refers to a expiration date of the withdrawal agreement and start and conclude the negotiations on the future relationship, not hard to figure out the intent.


And what would you like to give in return? Or is it only take take take?
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:44 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
An interesting choice of words, you make it out like we are part of the axis of evil and are preparing for war with the UK


Well, Brexitremist (and most of the Torrie party it seems are just that), kind of are, or at least don't care about what happens to the UK.



Really and you base that on?



Image
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:58 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

No BoJo will burn himself if he insists to cherry pick. He wants a better deal, whatever that even means.


Better deal in this instance refers to a expiration date of the withdrawal agreement and start and conclude the negotiations on the future relationship, not hard to figure out the intent.


And what would you like to give in return? Or is it only take take take?


Nothing as it’s a negotiation that benfits both parties, member nations do not want a disruption to trade either, sorting out the future relationship is the goal. The future relationship is the key to the border problem, you don’t need to be Einstein to figure that out.
 
KLDC10
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:04 am

zkojq wrote:
There absolutely is. Anybody with half a brain knows that a strong independent judiciary is the antithesis of a totalitarian state. :roll:


zkojq wrote:
Remind us again which ECJ ruling you're most excited to have overturned?


It isn't independent, it is an institution of the European Union. The Supreme Court of the United Kingdom should be the ultimate arbiter of matters pertaining to UK law. There is no need for any court higher than that.

But, since you're looking for an example in a poor attempt at "gotcha" questioning, this one from A101 would be a good start:

A101 wrote:
A case in point, In 1988 Margaret Thatcher passed the Merchant Shipping Act to prevent Spanish fishermen who had set up a British company (Factortame Ltd) from fishing in UK waters. It added new conditions for registration which the Factortame boats were refused. But the company challenged this law under the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and won. The European Court of Justice found that the Merchant Shipping Act was incompatible with the provision of ‘Freedom of Establishment’ in the EU treaty and the Act of Parliament was suspended.


The idea of the British Parliament being constrained by a Foreign Court is entirely abhorrent.
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:08 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Better deal in this instance refers to a expiration date of the withdrawal agreement and start and conclude the negotiations on the future relationship, not hard to figure out the intent.


And what would you like to give in return? Or is it only take take take?


Nothing as it’s a negotiation that benfits both parties, member nations do not want a disruption to trade either, sorting out the future relationship is the goal. The future relationship is the key to the border problem, you don’t need to be Einstein to figure that out.


ok, it is take take take.....

If this is your line of reasoning, you could have accepted the WA.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:11 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Well, Brexitremist (and most of the Torrie party it seems are just that), kind of are, or at least don't care about what happens to the UK.



Really and you base that on?



Image


You call me a Brexitremist yet I’m not affiliated with any political party, also I believe the UK leaving the EU is in our best interests. If the UK breaks up no one in the kingdom is held against the wishes of the respective electorate vote to leave.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:17 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

And what would you like to give in return? Or is it only take take take?


Nothing as it’s a negotiation that benfits both parties, member nations do not want a disruption to trade either, sorting out the future relationship is the goal. The future relationship is the key to the border problem, you don’t need to be Einstein to figure that out.


ok, it is take take take.....

If this is your line of reasoning, you could have accepted the WA.


With a clear time limit where it is no longer in force
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:50 am

To not have trade disruption, you ask the EU to break the SM rules. Guess what are the chances? And EU nations told you repeatedly that the SM protection is way more important than that price.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:59 am

A101 wrote:
You call me a Brexitremist yet I’m not affiliated with any political party, also I believe the UK leaving the EU is in our best interests. If the UK breaks up no one in the kingdom is held against the wishes of the respective electorate vote to leave.


Ah yes, the belief system of the Brexiteer, but you never made it clear what you think will be the benefit.

The point being, your belief is stronger than the willingness to keep the UK together. Everything is a trade off, you can't win them all. Or don't you agree with everything the poll says the majority of the Tories believe in?
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:01 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Nothing as it’s a negotiation that benfits both parties, member nations do not want a disruption to trade either, sorting out the future relationship is the goal. The future relationship is the key to the border problem, you don’t need to be Einstein to figure that out.


ok, it is take take take.....

If this is your line of reasoning, you could have accepted the WA.


With a clear time limit where it is no longer in force


Only if you guys accept that there will be no clear border what so ever and keeping in line with EU regulations.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:18 am

Olddog wrote:
To not have trade disruption, you ask the EU to break the SM rules. Guess what are the chances? And EU nations told you repeatedly that the SM protection is way more important than that price.



The future relationship does not mean we have to remain in the SM
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:24 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

ok, it is take take take.....

If this is your line of reasoning, you could have accepted the WA.


With a clear time limit where it is no longer in force


Only if you guys accept that there will be no clear border what so ever and keeping in line with EU regulations.



Happy to do that till the end of the withdrawal agreement and transition period.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:40 am

Dutchy wrote:

Ah yes, the belief system of the Brexiteer, but you never made it clear what you think will be the benefit.


All you have to is read my past posts across the forum



Dutchy wrote:
The point being, your belief is stronger than the willingness to keep the UK together. Everything is a trade off, you can't win them all. Or don't you agree with everything the poll says the majority of the Tories believe in?





My belief is the kingdom will survive this upheaval in our colourful history.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:37 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
There absolutely is. Anybody with half a brain knows that a strong independent judiciary is the antithesis of a totalitarian state. :roll:


zkojq wrote:
Remind us again which ECJ ruling you're most excited to have overturned?


It isn't independent, it is an institution of the European Union. The Supreme Court of the United Kingdom should be the ultimate arbiter of matters pertaining to UK law. There is no need for any court higher than that.

But, since you're looking for an example in a poor attempt at "gotcha" questioning, this one from A101 would be a good start:

A101 wrote:
A case in point, In 1988 Margaret Thatcher passed the Merchant Shipping Act to prevent Spanish fishermen who had set up a British company (Factortame Ltd) from fishing in UK waters. It added new conditions for registration which the Factortame boats were refused. But the company challenged this law under the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and won. The European Court of Justice found that the Merchant Shipping Act was incompatible with the provision of ‘Freedom of Establishment’ in the EU treaty and the Act of Parliament was suspended.


The idea of the British Parliament being constrained by a Foreign Court is entirely abhorrent.


The court was simply applying the law of the land, the UK as part of the EU has to allow anyone in the EU to open shop in the UK. It is in fact benefiting immensely from this.

Are you also against the ECHR, and the International Criminal Court ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:01 pm

Aesma wrote:

The court was simply applying the law of the land, the UK as part of the EU has to allow anyone in the EU to open shop in the UK. It is in fact benefiting immensely from this.

Are you also against the ECHR, and the International Criminal Court ?



No one is saying the ruling is wrong but you are missing the point, it usurped the government’s ability to make laws solely in the interests of the UK, Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law. Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:04 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Ah yes, the belief system of the Brexiteer, but you never made it clear what you think will be the benefit.


All you have to is read my past posts across the forum


Done that already and I have seen nothing that holds any merit.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The point being, your belief is stronger than the willingness to keep the UK together. Everything is a trade off, you can't win them all. Or don't you agree with everything the poll says the majority of the Tories believe in?


My belief is the kingdom will survive this upheaval in our colourful history.


In other words, your belief is that the desire of the Scotts to be in the EU (and their independence) is weaker than their desire to remain within the UK? Your belief is that the desire of the North Irish to be in the EU, to have not go through a period of potential troubles again, and the desire of some to get the Irish ailes back together, is weaker than their desire to remain within an non-EU UK? Quite a gamble, quite a gamble and you are willing to take the gamble.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:07 pm

Aesma wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
There absolutely is. Anybody with half a brain knows that a strong independent judiciary is the antithesis of a totalitarian state. :roll:


zkojq wrote:
Remind us again which ECJ ruling you're most excited to have overturned?


It isn't independent, it is an institution of the European Union. The Supreme Court of the United Kingdom should be the ultimate arbiter of matters pertaining to UK law. There is no need for any court higher than that.

But, since you're looking for an example in a poor attempt at "gotcha" questioning, this one from A101 would be a good start:

A101 wrote:
A case in point, In 1988 Margaret Thatcher passed the Merchant Shipping Act to prevent Spanish fishermen who had set up a British company (Factortame Ltd) from fishing in UK waters. It added new conditions for registration which the Factortame boats were refused. But the company challenged this law under the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and won. The European Court of Justice found that the Merchant Shipping Act was incompatible with the provision of ‘Freedom of Establishment’ in the EU treaty and the Act of Parliament was suspended.


The idea of the British Parliament being constrained by a Foreign Court is entirely abhorrent.


The court was simply applying the law of the land, the UK as part of the EU has to allow anyone in the EU to open shop in the UK. It is in fact benefiting immensely from this.

Are you also against the ECHR, and the International Criminal Court ?


The UN, all kind of other international courts. There are dozens of them. You don't hear the Brexitremist to get out all of them strangely enough, just the E`CJ is some kind of monster.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:44 pm

A101 wrote:
Regime change infers to either coup d'état, revolution and or military action, change of government by elections is at the free will of the electorate

No "regime change" applies to peaceful, orderly and democratic transition of power just the same.

Not that that could be said of the shambles going on in Westminster, but the term still applies.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:55 pm

A101 wrote:

You call me a Brexitremist yet I’m not affiliated with any political party, also I believe the UK leaving the EU is in our best interests.



All fine but you could tell us who pays you and who's interests you defend here
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:37 pm

A101 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The court was simply applying the law of the land, the UK as part of the EU has to allow anyone in the EU to open shop in the UK. It is in fact benefiting immensely from this.

Are you also against the ECHR, and the International Criminal Court ?



No one is saying the ruling is wrong but you are missing the point, it usurped the government’s ability to make laws solely in the interests of the UK, Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law. Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change.


Then how come you're signing free trade agreements, that always include an outside court to decide conflicts ? What about a WTO Brexit ? The whole point of the WTO is to decide if its rules are applied correctly.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
KLDC10
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:00 pm

Aesma wrote:
Are you also against the ECHR, and the International Criminal Court ?


Actually, yes. And the really interesting thing is that Theresa May railed for years against the ECHR, which led many to believe she would back Leave in the referendum. She was one of the cabinet "big beasts" the Leave side hoped to net ahead of the campaign. In the end, she largely disappeared from public view - certainly, she gave a speech or two in favour of Remain, but it was clear that she had other priorities.

I think the United States is entirely correct not to be party to the ICC.
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LJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:43 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
I think the United States is entirely correct not to be party to the ICC.


Can you tell us which supra national courts you do want to be part of? I recon at least WTO as you want to trade under WTO rules. Then the second question. What makes these courts acceptable whilst the ECJ not?
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:44 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Are you also against the ECHR, and the International Criminal Court ?


Actually, yes. And the really interesting thing is that Theresa May railed for years against the ECHR, which led many to believe she would back Leave in the referendum. She was one of the cabinet "big beasts" the Leave side hoped to net ahead of the campaign. In the end, she largely disappeared from public view - certainly, she gave a speech or two in favour of Remain, but it was clear that she had other priorities.

I think the United States is entirely correct not to be party to the ICC.

Refusing any international accountability – which is what you're advocating there – only serves tyrants, war criminals and large corporations well, while removing any hope of recourse from their victims and the general population (usually identical).

"Might makes right" has been tried, and it was (and is) a complete disaster which has no place in modern times.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:47 pm

TM railed against the ECHR while it was local UK laws and judges that were making her job difficult. In France we have deported islamists without issue for decades. Many of them would then take refuge in the UK...
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:36 pm

Have some posters here thought about therapy?

The obsession with the damage to the UK and how great the EU is, clearly isn’t healthy.

Jesus.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:43 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Have some posters here thought about therapy?

The obsession with the damage to the UK and how great the EU is, clearly isn’t healthy.

Jesus.


:roll:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Klaus
Posts: 21577
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:11 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Have some posters here thought about therapy?

The obsession with the damage to the UK and how great the EU is, clearly isn’t healthy.

Jesus.

This is the greatest calamity to befall Europe in multiple decades, willfully perpetrated against a fellow european country and to some degree against all the rest of us.

I understand the growing sense of embarrassment among those having actively supported said calamity, but just looking away to spare you that embarrassment is not a plausible response, as much as you might prefer that.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1519
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:23 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Have some posters here thought about therapy?

The obsession with the damage to the UK and how great the EU is, clearly isn’t healthy.

Jesus.


Your mirror just exploded....
 
LJ
Posts: 5353
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:16 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Have some posters here thought about therapy?

The obsession with the damage to the UK and how great the EU is, clearly isn’t healthy.

Jesus.


Probably because we're amazed about how self inflicting UK MPs and the Tory candidates (or better one in particular) are. It really changes the way people look to the Uk from abroad. You may not care, but the entire way UK MPs handle the Brexit is not very positive for the UK. Just the latest gossip about Boris is amazing. Who will vote for such a person when he can't control its temper? The entertainment we get once he's PM will be great (and will beat Trump).

As for how great we think the EU is, we don;t think that. However, we get some good benefits and thus we don;t care about the negative effects much (benefits are still greater than the negatives).
 
KLDC10
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:16 pm

Klaus wrote:
This is the greatest calamity to befall Europe in multiple decades, willfully perpetrated against a fellow european country and to some degree against all the rest of us.

I understand the growing sense of embarrassment among those having actively supported said calamity, but just looking away to spare you that embarrassment is not a plausible response, as much as you might prefer that.


Incorrect. The Holocaust was a calamity, Brexit is the exercise of our right to self-governance.
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A101
Posts: 2151
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:35 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Done that already and I have seen nothing that holds any merit.



Well going from previous posting style I seriously doubt that very much


Dutchy wrote:


In other words, your belief is that the desire of the Scotts to be in the EU (and their independence) is weaker than their desire to remain within the UK? Your belief is that the desire of the North Irish to be in the EU, to have not go through a period of potential troubles again, and the desire of some to get the Irish ailes back together, is weaker than their desire to remain within an non-EU UK? Quite a gamble, quite a gamble and you are willing to take the gamble.



I have no doubt there are factions who truly desire independence and I do not stand in their way, as to my beliefs in this United Kingdom once the current upheaval has come to its final conclusion and the sky does not fall down and the UK progressively moves away from the EU, it will make the decisions right for themselves when they look at all the implications on either Independence or renufication



Dutchy wrote:
The UN, all kind of other international courts. There are dozens of them. You don't hear the Brexitremist to get out all of them strangely enough, just the E`CJ is some kind of monster.



Are you really going to compare the role and function of the UN to that of the EU, and how it interacts with the parliamentary sovereignty.
 
A101
Posts: 2151
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:50 pm

A3801000 wrote:


All fine but you could tell us who pays you and who's interests you defend here


Do you think I’m a paid lobbyist on this forum :rotfl:
 
A101
Posts: 2151
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:08 pm

Aesma wrote:

Then how come you're signing free trade agreements, that always include an outside court to decide conflicts ? What about a WTO Brexit ? The whole point of the WTO is to decide if its rules are applied correctly.


They are independent arbitration courts for dispute resolution purposes between two independent countries on international trade.

The EU as a whole can introduce laws which have direct implications on UK domestic laws judicial courts, free trade agreements between nations do not devolve themselves in each other’s domestic legislative or judicial powers.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3333
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:31 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Are you also against the ECHR, and the International Criminal Court ?


Actually, yes. And the really interesting thing is that Theresa May railed for years against the ECHR, which led many to believe she would back Leave in the referendum. She was one of the cabinet "big beasts" the Leave side hoped to net ahead of the campaign. In the end, she largely disappeared from public view - certainly, she gave a speech or two in favour of Remain, but it was clear that she had other priorities.

I think the United States is entirely correct not to be party to the ICC.


FYI,
the ECHR is NOT an EU institution!
The EU's top court is the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU), often referred to as the ECJ.
The 2 are not the same and are not located in the same place even:
the CJEU(ECJ) is located in Luxembourg,
whereas the ECHR is located in Strasbourg, which happens to also be one of the seats of the EU Parliament, contributing to the confusion maybe.

Leaving the EU does nothing to your membership of the Council of Europe who's court is the ECHR is and who's flag is identical to the EU's flag, thus also adding to the general confusion amongst many people it's all the same, whereas it really isn't.

Still, you can do all the reading, or better still: it should have been explained to you prior to the referendum.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3333
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:35 pm

A101 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Then how come you're signing free trade agreements, that always include an outside court to decide conflicts ? What about a WTO Brexit ? The whole point of the WTO is to decide if its rules are applied correctly.


They are independent arbitration courts for dispute resolution purposes between two independent countries on international trade.

The EU as a whole can introduce laws which have direct implications on UK domestic laws judicial courts, free trade agreements between nations do not devolve themselves in each other’s domestic legislative or judicial powers.


Actually they sometimes do, at least when you strike a FTA with the EU as a small European country!!.
Just ask Switzerland or Norway for instance how they have signed up to the obligation to mirror any future EU rules in their 'domestic' legislation in due time, all in order to benefit from the advantages of a FTA with the EU.
It's the essence of the current diplomatic conflict between the EU and Switzerland even, in which the strike down clause is about to be triggered by the EU!
Still haven't done the reading up then on the very interesting similarity between them and the UK, haven't you?
Last edited by sabenapilot on Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
KLDC10
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:36 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Are you also against the ECHR, and the International Criminal Court ?


Actually, yes. And the really interesting thing is that Theresa May railed for years against the ECHR, which led many to believe she would back Leave in the referendum. She was one of the cabinet "big beasts" the Leave side hoped to net ahead of the campaign. In the end, she largely disappeared from public view - certainly, she gave a speech or two in favour of Remain, but it was clear that she had other priorities.

I think the United States is entirely correct not to be party to the ICC.


FYI,
the ECHR is NOT an EU institution!
The EU's top court is the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU), often referred to as the ECJ.
The 2 are not the same and are not located in the same place even:
the CJEU(ECJ) is located in Luxembourg,
whereas the ECHR is located in Strasbourg, which happens to also be one of the seats of the EU Parliament, contributing to the confusion maybe.

Leaving the EU does nothing to your membership of the Council of Europe who's court is the ECHR is and who's flag is identical to the EU's flag, thus also adding to the general confusion amongst many people it's all the same, whereas it really isn't.

Still, you can do all the reading, or better still: it should have been explained to you prior to the referendum.


Yes, thank you. I am aware of all of this. Aesma asked if I was against the ECHR and ICC in addition to the ECJ. There is no confusion over the nature of the three institutions. But perhaps I ought be clearer: When Theresa May came to power, given her well-documented opposition to the ECHR (to which, as you will know, non-EU members Russia and Turkey are also party), Brexit would provide the impetus for us to leave that too.
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
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sabenapilot
Posts: 3333
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:53 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:

Actually, yes. And the really interesting thing is that Theresa May railed for years against the ECHR, which led many to believe she would back Leave in the referendum. She was one of the cabinet "big beasts" the Leave side hoped to net ahead of the campaign. In the end, she largely disappeared from public view - certainly, she gave a speech or two in favour of Remain, but it was clear that she had other priorities.

I think the United States is entirely correct not to be party to the ICC.


FYI,
the ECHR is NOT an EU institution!
The EU's top court is the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU), often referred to as the ECJ.
The 2 are not the same and are not located in the same place even:
the CJEU(ECJ) is located in Luxembourg,
whereas the ECHR is located in Strasbourg, which happens to also be one of the seats of the EU Parliament, contributing to the confusion maybe.

Leaving the EU does nothing to your membership of the Council of Europe who's court is the ECHR is and who's flag is identical to the EU's flag, thus also adding to the general confusion amongst many people it's all the same, whereas it really isn't.

Still, you can do all the reading, or better still: it should have been explained to you prior to the referendum.


Yes, thank you. I am aware of all of this. Aesma asked if I was against the ECHR and ICC in addition to the ECJ. There is no confusion over the nature of the three institutions. But perhaps I ought be clearer: When Theresa May came to power, given her well-documented opposition to the ECHR (to which, as you will know, non-EU members Russia and Turkey are also party), Brexit would provide the impetus for us to leave that too.


Why should it?
It was NOT what the referendum was about really: you might just as well add leaving UEFA to the list then...
Although an absurd exemple, I agree, it would have found as much ground in the referendum result as leaving the Council of Europe.

A surprise add-on the Britain leaving the EU is the UK's departure from Euratom however!
Although now incorporated into the EU's governing institutions for purposes of efficiency, it's still a separate organisation governed by its own treaty and is not controlled by the European Parliament not subject to the ECJ rulings unless by unanimous delegation by all of it's (associated) member states, which includes Switzerland too, btw.

Technically, there's no real ground to pull the UK out of Euratom and there's no obvious advantage either (no FoM, no meaningful budgetairy contribution etc), whereas it will create significant issues for both domestic healthcare as well as British nuclear energy supply to the point the House of Commons Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee questioned the legal necessity of leaving Euratom even.

In hindsight, it seemed like TM initially just decided no EU institutions could be seen to have some control over British matters through their day-to-day work for Euratom, things which are going to happen anyway as the UK discovered meanwhile it can not possibly duplicate the entire EU's regulatory ans supervisory set up and now wants to participate in several other real EU incorporated agencies like for instance EASA, EMA and Europol (European arrest and extradition warrant for instance)...

Just shows you that the extend of the withdrawal was not very well thought through really and was based on public perception rather than careful consideration: the withdrawal from Euratom clearly IS a technical mistake, but one that no UK politician can correct now without being seen as backpeddling on Brexit!

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