A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:28 am

sabenapilot wrote:
A101 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Then how come you're signing free trade agreements, that always include an outside court to decide conflicts ? What about a WTO Brexit ? The whole point of the WTO is to decide if its rules are applied correctly.


They are independent arbitration courts for dispute resolution purposes between two independent countries on international trade.

The EU as a whole can introduce laws which have direct implications on UK domestic laws judicial courts, free trade agreements between nations do not devolve themselves in each other’s domestic legislative or judicial powers.


Actually they sometimes do, at least when you strike a FTA with the EU as a small European country!!.
Just ask Switzerland or Norway for instance how they have signed up to the obligation to mirror any future EU rules in their 'domestic' legislation in due time, all in order to benefit from the advantages of a FTA with the EU.
It's the essence of the current diplomatic conflict between the EU and Switzerland even, in which the strike down clause is about to be triggered by the EU!
Still haven't done the reading up then on the very interesting similarity between them and the UK, haven't you?


Your talking about EFTA which comprehensively aligns itself with the single market the trade off was to mirror EU laws, this was a trade of for the single market. No other third country has these levels of intergration in regards to free trade agreements as an example trade agreements with a Canada or the recent agreement with Japan
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:19 am

But the EU offered CETA type deal without the +++ as UK red lines prohibit them.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:19 am

Still haven't read up on the Swiss-EU set of bilaterals then, have you, A101?

Switzerland does NOT participate in the multilateral EU-EFTA agreement establishing the EEA although it is an EFTA country too; it has its OWN set of bilaterals with the EU instead, yet those DO include exactly the kind of guarantees on automatic future dynamic legal allignment you say no third country has ever had to offer the EU in order to gain market access.

The conclusion to any outsider should be simple:
the closer you are to the EU GEOGRAPHICALLY, the more integration is required to be offered a comprehensive FTA by the EU.
You may not like this and think it is completely unfair as it is a purely ideologically oriented demand from Brussels which has no economic grounds to it, but it doesn't make it less real: is very much the EU's sovereign right to persue ever closer union in Europe through its trade policies.
In fact it's the very basic founding element of the EU and its precursors the EC, the EEC and the ECSC, which is why it is so surprising to see how British politicians and the public alike genuinely seem to think the EU will set aside the basic principle behind more than 70 years of integration on the continent for a bit of cross channel trade?!

Given the UK is pretty much incircled by the EU and has an inextricable problem at hands in NI, that should give you a clear idea of the price for signing up to a meaningful FTA the UK will have to pay the EU... it just doesn't bode well for that often touted ability to diverge from what Brussels expects it to do in future. :sorry:
Last edited by sabenapilot on Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:35 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Done that already and I have seen nothing that holds any merit.


Well going from previous posting style I seriously doubt that very much


Right, and you don't seriously consider the replies to these posts. The two things are being "sovereign" and being able to keep EU citizens out (even though there are more coming from other countries) as far as I can tell, but that will mean closing the country off.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
In other words, your belief is that the desire of the Scotts to be in the EU (and their independence) is weaker than their desire to remain within the UK? Your belief is that the desire of the North Irish to be in the EU, to have not go through a period of potential troubles again, and the desire of some to get the Irish ailes back together, is weaker than their desire to remain within an non-EU UK? Quite a gamble, quite a gamble and you are willing to take the gamble.


I have no doubt there are factions who truly desire independence and I do not stand in their way, as to my beliefs in this United Kingdom once the current upheaval has come to its final conclusion and the sky does not fall down and the UK progressively moves away from the EU, it will make the decisions right for themselves when they look at all the implications on either Independence or renufication


The point is that you are willing to take the chance that that will happen. So in essence Brexit is more important than the integrity of the UK, that is a point of view, but please be man enough to admit it.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The UN, all kind of other international courts. There are dozens of them. You don't hear the Brexitremist to get out all of them strangely enough, just the E`CJ is some kind of monster.



Are you really going to compare the role and function of the UN to that of the EU, and how it interacts with the parliamentary sovereignty.


Either it is on principle or it isn't. Either your argument is that the UK needs to have supreme sovereignty or it is ok to relinquish some sovereignty for a common goal.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:50 am

sabenapilot wrote:
Still haven't read up on the Swiss-EU set of bilaterals then, have you, A101?

Switzerland does NOT participate in the multilateral EU-EFTA agreement establishing the EEA although it is an EFTA country too; it has its OWN set of bilaterals with the EU instead, yet those DO include exactly the kind of guarantees on automatic future dynamic legal allignment you say no third country has ever had to offer the EU in order to gain market access.

The conclusion to any outsider should be simple:
the closer you are to the EU GEOGRAPHICALLY, the more integration is required to be offered a comprehensive FTA by the EU.
You may not like this and think it is completely unfair as it is a purely ideologically oriented demand from Brussels which has no economic grounds to it, but it doesn't make it less real: is very much the EU's sovereign right to persue ever closer union in Europe through its trade policies.in fact it's the very basic founding element of the EU and its precursors the EC, the EEC and the ECSC!
Given the UK is pretty much incircled by the EU and has an inextricable problem at hands in NI, that should give you a clear idea of the price for signing up to a meaningful FTA the UK will have to pay... doesn't bode well for the ability to diverge from what Brussels expects it to do in future. :sorry:


Which country has a free trade agreement with access to the single market without having to adopt any EU laws.......none, all the nations that have acccses to the single market are forced make provisions in some shape or form. David Cameron made it quite clear we will be voting to leave the CU/SM so you have lost me when you say that we have to make provisions for EU law to have a free trade agreement when clearly we don’t, geography has nothing to do with trade agreements
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:01 am

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Still haven't read up on the Swiss-EU set of bilaterals then, have you, A101?

Switzerland does NOT participate in the multilateral EU-EFTA agreement establishing the EEA although it is an EFTA country too; it has its OWN set of bilaterals with the EU instead, yet those DO include exactly the kind of guarantees on automatic future dynamic legal allignment you say no third country has ever had to offer the EU in order to gain market access.

The conclusion to any outsider should be simple:
the closer you are to the EU GEOGRAPHICALLY, the more integration is required to be offered a comprehensive FTA by the EU.
You may not like this and think it is completely unfair as it is a purely ideologically oriented demand from Brussels which has no economic grounds to it, but it doesn't make it less real: is very much the EU's sovereign right to persue ever closer union in Europe through its trade policies.in fact it's the very basic founding element of the EU and its precursors the EC, the EEC and the ECSC!
Given the UK is pretty much incircled by the EU and has an inextricable problem at hands in NI, that should give you a clear idea of the price for signing up to a meaningful FTA the UK will have to pay... doesn't bode well for the ability to diverge from what Brussels expects it to do in future. :sorry:


Which country has a free trade agreement with access to the single market without having to adopt any EU laws.......none, all the nations that have acccses to the single market are forced make provisions in some shape or form. David Cameron made it quite clear we will be voting to leave the CU/SM so you have lost me when you say that we have to make provisions for EU law to have a free trade agreement when clearly we don’t, geography has nothing to do with trade agreements


Read the CH-EU draft treaty... it will -hopefully- open your eyes.
Until you have done so, you'll be lost indeed on what is realistically possible and keep on talking pure fiction only.

The essence is that you can not grasp the fact that TRADE is the vehicle by which the European project persues its IDEOLOGY of ever closer union on the continent, and as such the 'legal price' for free trade with and within Europe is to be higher to European countries like Britain, than it is to non-European countries.

Not because it has to be for that trade to run smoothly, but because the EU wants it to be like that: the lack of understanding of this is exactly why your politicians have been promissing all sort of favourable things which the Europeans have said were unavailable from the start, with the UK spending months trying to prove they weren't and could be done if needed... bottom line is it's just not on offer, TO YOU, as a European nation.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:14 am

Dutchy wrote:

Right, and you don't seriously consider the replies to these posts.


If I didn’t consider it, I would not reply

Dutchy wrote:
The two things are being "sovereign" and being able to keep EU citizens out (even though there are more coming from other countries) as far as I can tell, but that will mean closing the country off.


Your rambling on, I’m not even sure what you are trying to say, can you elaborate please

Dutchy wrote:

The point is that you are willing to take the chance that that will happen. So in essence Brexit is more important than the integrity of the UK, that is a point of view, but please be man enough to admit it.


Geez you talk a lot of shit, the chance is it’s always on the cards, the Scotts pushed for a referenda and got one, Northern Ireland has had the mechanism since the GFA was signed the dice has already rolled



Dutchy wrote:


Either it is on principle or it isn't. Either your argument is that the UK needs to have supreme sovereignty or it is ok to relinquish some sovereignty for a common goal.


Please do tell me how the UN influence the UK domestic law making, please make effort to at least address the question
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:45 am

sabenapilot wrote:
A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Still haven't read up on the Swiss-EU set of bilaterals then, have you, A101?

Switzerland does NOT participate in the multilateral EU-EFTA agreement establishing the EEA although it is an EFTA country too; it has its OWN set of bilaterals with the EU instead, yet those DO include exactly the kind of guarantees on automatic future dynamic legal allignment you say no third country has ever had to offer the EU in order to gain market access.

The conclusion to any outsider should be simple:
the closer you are to the EU GEOGRAPHICALLY, the more integration is required to be offered a comprehensive FTA by the EU.
You may not like this and think it is completely unfair as it is a purely ideologically oriented demand from Brussels which has no economic grounds to it, but it doesn't make it less real: is very much the EU's sovereign right to persue ever closer union in Europe through its trade policies.in fact it's the very basic founding element of the EU and its precursors the EC, the EEC and the ECSC!
Given the UK is pretty much incircled by the EU and has an inextricable problem at hands in NI, that should give you a clear idea of the price for signing up to a meaningful FTA the UK will have to pay... doesn't bode well for the ability to diverge from what Brussels expects it to do in future. :sorry:


Which country has a free trade agreement with access to the single market without having to adopt any EU laws.......none, all the nations that have acccses to the single market are forced make provisions in some shape or form. David Cameron made it quite clear we will be voting to leave the CU/SM so you have lost me when you say that we have to make provisions for EU law to have a free trade agreement when clearly we don’t, geography has nothing to do with trade agreements


Read the CH-EU draft treaty... it will -hopefully- open your eyes.
Until you have done so, you'll be lost indeed on what is realistically possible and keep on talking pure fiction only.

The essence is that you can not grasp the fact that TRADE is the vehicle by which the European project persues its IDEOLOGY of ever closer union on the continent, and as such the 'legal price' for free trade with and within Europe is to be higher to European countries like Britain, than it is to non-European countries.

Not because it has to be for that trade to run smoothly, but because the EU wants it to be like that: the lack of understanding of this is exactly why your politicians have been promissing all sort of favourable things which the Europeans have said were unavailable from the start, with the UK spending months trying to prove they weren't and could be done if needed... bottom line is it's just not on offer, TO YOU, as a European nation.



Right oh give me the link and I’ll read it
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:53 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Right, and you don't seriously consider the replies to these posts.


If I didn’t consider it, I would not reply

Dutchy wrote:
The two things are being "sovereign" and being able to keep EU citizens out (even though there are more coming from other countries) as far as I can tell, but that will mean closing the country off.


Your rambling on, I’m not even sure what you are trying to say, can you elaborate please

Dutchy wrote:

The point is that you are willing to take the chance that that will happen. So in essence Brexit is more important than the integrity of the UK, that is a point of view, but please be man enough to admit it.


Geez you talk a lot of shit, the chance is it’s always on the cards, the Scotts pushed for a referenda and got one, Northern Ireland has had the mechanism since the GFA was signed the dice has already rolled



Dutchy wrote:


Either it is on principle or it isn't. Either your argument is that the UK needs to have supreme sovereignty or it is ok to relinquish some sovereignty for a common goal.


Please do tell me how the UN influence the UK domestic law making, please make effort to at least address the question


I see you are uncomfortable to think about these questions and decided that attack was the best line of defense.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:03 am

Just go to the official websites of the Swiss government, or the EU and read up on it there if you really want to see all the legal and technical texts: numerous links in many different languages exist, just use Google to search for a version that is understandable to you, but in case you can't manage, here the FULL set of 120 bilaterals IN FULL, from the CH government website, in English no less:
https://www.fdfa.admin.ch/dea/en/home/b ... blick.html

Bottom line is that the idea you've been entertaining us with that IF you do not seek SM/CU membership, but rather just a comprehensive FTA with the EU, a country can remain unbound by EU law and influence over its domestic matters, is dead wrong: that is NOT available to European countries, like Switzerland is experiencing first hand.
Last edited by sabenapilot on Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:49 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Right, and you don't seriously consider the replies to these posts.


If I didn’t consider it, I would not reply

Dutchy wrote:
The two things are being "sovereign" and being able to keep EU citizens out (even though there are more coming from other countries) as far as I can tell, but that will mean closing the country off.


Your rambling on, I’m not even sure what you are trying to say, can you elaborate please

Dutchy wrote:

The point is that you are willing to take the chance that that will happen. So in essence Brexit is more important than the integrity of the UK, that is a point of view, but please be man enough to admit it.


Geez you talk a lot of shit, the chance is it’s always on the cards, the Scotts pushed for a referenda and got one, Northern Ireland has had the mechanism since the GFA was signed the dice has already rolled



Dutchy wrote:


Either it is on principle or it isn't. Either your argument is that the UK needs to have supreme sovereignty or it is ok to relinquish some sovereignty for a common goal.


Please do tell me how the UN influence the UK domestic law making, please make effort to at least address the question


I see you are uncomfortable to think about these questions and decided that attack was the best line of defense.



No not at all, I believe you post made no sense in context to which the reply originated from, but I see you still not answering the UN/EU question
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:26 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

If I didn’t consider it, I would not reply



Your rambling on, I’m not even sure what you are trying to say, can you elaborate please



Geez you talk a lot of shit, the chance is it’s always on the cards, the Scotts pushed for a referenda and got one, Northern Ireland has had the mechanism since the GFA was signed the dice has already rolled





Please do tell me how the UN influence the UK domestic law making, please make effort to at least address the question


I see you are uncomfortable to think about these questions and decided that attack was the best line of defense.



No not at all, I believe you post made no sense in context to which the reply originated from, but I see you still not answering the UN/EU question


You non answered all of my questions, so why should I answer yours?

So anther try, do you feel that any outside influence is allowed over UK courts?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

I see you are uncomfortable to think about these questions and decided that attack was the best line of defense.



No not at all, I believe you post made no sense in context to which the reply originated from, but I see you still not answering the UN/EU question


You non answered all of my questions, so why should I answer yours?

So anther try, do you feel that any outside influence is allowed over UK courts?


Our judicial process well that answer is easy NO, The Supreme Court
of the United Kingdom should be the highest court in the kingdom.

But I know you are referring to arbitration in matters of international disputes and so fourth, those are independent of either nations
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:25 pm

A101 wrote:
But I know you are referring to arbitration in matters of international disputes and so fourth, those are independent of either nations


So what is the difference then? Either you are ok with a higher authority than the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom or you are not, so what is it?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
bennett123
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:25 pm

Reading about the Tory Leader/PM election recently.

Apparently the winner is announced on the week starting 22 July.

On 25 July Parliament goes on holiday.

You could not make it up.

There will not be any Parliament to agree anything with the EU until September, the 6th?).

Then a week later the Party Conferences begin.

You could not make it up.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:15 pm

And the six months extension is just down to six weeks. Again.

Three months of Conservative party internal politics.
Two months holidays
One month of boris guffawing
Two weeks blaming the EU
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:25 pm

Anyway, as usual, the next commission president should not be agreed before august september.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:49 pm

Olddog wrote:
Anyway, as usual, the next commission president should not be agreed before august september.


And will be appointed on 1st of November, right? There will be one month to make a new deal with the current commision: October and to get everyone to agree, so that is a scenario we can ride off.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
But I know you are referring to arbitration in matters of international disputes and so fourth, those are independent of either nations


So what is the difference then? Either you are ok with a higher authority than the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom or you are not, so what is it?



If you haven’t figured out the fundamental difference between UK and international arbitration and the political union of UK-EU then there’s no point in continuing the discussion with you, as it’s been pointed out many times how EU law interacts with the UK judicial process
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:23 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
But I know you are referring to arbitration in matters of international disputes and so fourth, those are independent of either nations


So what is the difference then? Either you are ok with a higher authority than the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom or you are not, so what is it?



If you haven’t figured out the fundamental difference between UK and international arbitration and the political union of UK-EU then there’s no point in continuing the discussion with you, as it’s been pointed out many times how EU law interacts with the UK judicial process


So it is the political union which is a problem for you? Not the principle choice that the UK courts should reign supreme. \

BTW you know that we are not only talking about international arbitration, right, UN courts which are in effect etc. etc.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:47 pm

Dutchy wrote:

So it is the political union which is a problem for you? Not the principle choice that the UK courts should reign supreme. \

BTW you know that we are not only talking about international arbitration, right, UN courts which are in effect etc. etc.



Of course the UK court system should have and hold judicial supremacy when it comes to the legislative interests of the UK.

The EU is legislative based which puts it on a higher plane for parliamentary and judicial sovereignty under the European Communities Act 1972 (UK) whereas the UN is a rules based assembly which is a development international law—conventions, treaties and standards, which sovereign nations can either recognise and ratify under its own parliamentary sovereignty or not. If a piece of legislation is passed in the EU and it’s not in the interests of that nations as the EU has supremacy over parliamentary sovereignty It is forced to introduce the legislation, where we are under no obligation to legislate treaties or conventions under the UN or other international body.

As a case in point the case brought up earlier which all remainers have avoided on commenting on, 1988 the Merchant Shipping Act passed by Margaret Thatcher, if we had judicial supremacy the Spainish company could only have brought proceedings in the UK supreme Court and not the ECJ
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:38 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

So it is the political union which is a problem for you? Not the principle choice that the UK courts should reign supreme. \

BTW you know that we are not only talking about international arbitration, right, UN courts which are in effect etc. etc.



Of course the UK court system should have and hold judicial supremacy when it comes to the legislative interests of the UK.

The EU is legislative based which puts it on a higher plane for parliamentary and judicial sovereignty under the European Communities Act 1972 (UK) whereas the UN is a rules based assembly which is a development international law—conventions, treaties and standards, which sovereign nations can either recognise and ratify under its own parliamentary sovereignty or not. If a piece of legislation is passed in the EU and it’s not in the interests of that nations as the EU has supremacy over parliamentary sovereignty It is forced to introduce the legislation, where we are under no obligation to legislate treaties or conventions under the UN or other international body.

As a case in point the case brought up earlier which all remainers have avoided on commenting on, 1988 the Merchant Shipping Act passed by Margaret Thatcher, if we had judicial supremacy the Spainish company could only have brought proceedings in the UK supreme Court and not the ECJ


So, you decline to answer the simple question, I understand why because if you do your conclusion will be that the UK needs to withdraw from every international treaty it has or come to the conclusion that your argument doesn't hold any merit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:09 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

So it is the political union which is a problem for you? Not the principle choice that the UK courts should reign supreme. \

BTW you know that we are not only talking about international arbitration, right, UN courts which are in effect etc. etc.



Of course the UK court system should have and hold judicial supremacy when it comes to the legislative interests of the UK.

The EU is legislative based which puts it on a higher plane for parliamentary and judicial sovereignty under the European Communities Act 1972 (UK) whereas the UN is a rules based assembly which is a development international law—conventions, treaties and standards, which sovereign nations can either recognise and ratify under its own parliamentary sovereignty or not. If a piece of legislation is passed in the EU and it’s not in the interests of that nations as the EU has supremacy over parliamentary sovereignty It is forced to introduce the legislation, where we are under no obligation to legislate treaties or conventions under the UN or other international body.

As a case in point the case brought up earlier which all remainers have avoided on commenting on, 1988 the Merchant Shipping Act passed by Margaret Thatcher, if we had judicial supremacy the Spainish company could only have brought proceedings in the UK supreme Court and not the ECJ


So, you decline to answer the simple question, I understand why because if you do your conclusion will be that the UK needs to withdraw from every international treaty it has or come to the conclusion that your argument doesn't hold any merit.



If the UK repeals the European Communities Act 1972 (UK) on the 1 November and we return parliamentary and judicial supremacy to the UK, why do we have to withdraw from every international treaty the UK is signed up for?
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:30 am

You don't have to, unless you signed them as an EU member.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:44 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


Of course the UK court system should have and hold judicial supremacy when it comes to the legislative interests of the UK.

The EU is legislative based which puts it on a higher plane for parliamentary and judicial sovereignty under the European Communities Act 1972 (UK) whereas the UN is a rules based assembly which is a development international law—conventions, treaties and standards, which sovereign nations can either recognise and ratify under its own parliamentary sovereignty or not. If a piece of legislation is passed in the EU and it’s not in the interests of that nations as the EU has supremacy over parliamentary sovereignty It is forced to introduce the legislation, where we are under no obligation to legislate treaties or conventions under the UN or other international body.

As a case in point the case brought up earlier which all remainers have avoided on commenting on, 1988 the Merchant Shipping Act passed by Margaret Thatcher, if we had judicial supremacy the Spainish company could only have brought proceedings in the UK supreme Court and not the ECJ


So, you decline to answer the simple question, I understand why because if you do your conclusion will be that the UK needs to withdraw from every international treaty it has or come to the conclusion that your argument doesn't hold any merit.



If the UK repeals the European Communities Act 1972 (UK) on the 1 November and we return parliamentary and judicial supremacy to the UK, why do we have to withdraw from every international treaty the UK is signed up for?


You don't, but your argument is that you don't want any outside interference with your island state.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:58 am

BestWestern wrote:
And the six months extension is just down to six weeks. Again.

Three months of Conservative party internal politics.
Two months holidays
One month of boris guffawing
Two weeks blaming the EU


And before this extension Tusk asked the UK not to waste it. It will be interesting to see what happens in October, if the UK will ask for another extension or try something else.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:50 am

Bostrom wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
And the six months extension is just down to six weeks. Again.

Three months of Conservative party internal politics.
Two months holidays
One month of boris guffawing
Two weeks blaming the EU


And before this extension Tusk asked the UK not to waste it. It will be interesting to see what happens in October, if the UK will ask for another extension or try something else.


I fail to see how Boris, if elected, could ask for an extension whilst not triggering upset, leadership challenge and many defections to the Brexit Party. Boris really has put himself in a corner with his points of view. Any deviation means losing the slight bit of confidence people have in him (and probably creating a revolt under his supporters). Then again, I've also failed to see why the EU gave an extension back in April. Finally, I think Macron will get more support this time (especially if Boris makes some sort of derogatory remark towards the EU, not highly unlikely). Thus an extension is not 100% guaranteed.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:59 am

LJ wrote:
Then again, I've also failed to see why the EU gave an extension back in April. Finally, I think Macron will get more support this time (especially if Boris makes some sort of derogatory remark towards the EU, not highly unlikely). Thus an extension is not 100% guaranteed.


Oh, I fully agree with this, certainly not 100% guaranteed, but on the other hand, not 100% ruled out either. If there will be an extension, it will be because of either a general election or people's vote.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:17 pm

LJ wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
And the six months extension is just down to six weeks. Again.

Three months of Conservative party internal politics.
Two months holidays
One month of boris guffawing
Two weeks blaming the EU


And before this extension Tusk asked the UK not to waste it. It will be interesting to see what happens in October, if the UK will ask for another extension or try something else.


I fail to see how Boris, if elected, could ask for an extension whilst not triggering upset, leadership challenge and many defections to the Brexit Party. Boris really has put himself in a corner with his points of view. Any deviation means losing the slight bit of confidence people have in him (and probably creating a revolt under his supporters). Then again, I've also failed to see why the EU gave an extension back in April. Finally, I think Macron will get more support this time (especially if Boris makes some sort of derogatory remark towards the EU, not highly unlikely). Thus an extension is not 100% guaranteed.


The thing is the UK isn't ready for a crash out on Halloween, so a "no deal" Brexit is a disaster because all the preparations for it started late, were timid, few and far in between and have been stopped by TM meanwhile.
So in short: there's currently NO suitable level of preparation for that event whatsoever!
Indeed: you can not make this up, can you, knowing all the candidates are pretending a "no deal" Brexit end of October should be kept as an option?!
If BoJo takes over end of July, he can and probably will restart some form of practial preparations again should he seriously want to try to prepare for the worst outcome, but still none of the much needed LEGAL initiatives can be taken by his government until it is going to be too late, so in any case an exit endof October will mean chaos, also legally, in the UK: totally suitable for the leadership style it will have by then!
Amazing masterclass in self-harm, the whole brexit process.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:55 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Amazing masterclass in self-harm, the whole brexit process.


Amazing masterclass in unfounded optimism, resulting in self-harm at an unprecedented scale. The Brexiteers still believe that the magic angle is going to save them, e.g. the EU :roll:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Loew
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:23 pm

One has to wonder, how surprised are all these hardcore brexiteers going to be, when Boris asks for yet another extension. The UK is not ready to crash out of the EU at all, and Boris is a well known unscrupulous liar. Several EU diplomats have already suggested another extension beyond October 31st, and EU capitals seem to be generally in favour of that idea. After all it´s summer time, and no one will be working on brexit till september, when both the UK and the EU are going to find themselves under a time pressure again. Boris factor doesn´t much in this equation. So in the end, I guess among other things we are going to read "A101 and melody boys" posts in this thread well into 2020.
Last edited by Loew on Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:39 pm

Loew wrote:
in the end, I guess among other things we are goint to read A101 and melody boys posts well into 2020.


Yet after Brexit, there will still be a CONTINUOUS need for the UK to remain in PERMANENT and MASSIVE contact with the EU!

The idea that somehow the EU is magically going to disappear from the British political debate after a 'clean break' with the EU is an illusion, regardless whether it's going to be hard of soft Brexit.

The Swiss for insance have no less than 20 JOINT PERMANENT POLITICAL COMMITTEES with the EU, meaning as good as ALL of their government deparments remain in constant contact with their EU counterparts to remain fully in sync with the EU to benefit of the FTA between CH and EU.

That means that the British political class will remain heavily focussed on what is happening in Brussels, even more than they were so far.
 
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Loew
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:48 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Loew wrote:
in the end, I guess among other things we are goint to read A101 and melody boys posts well into 2020.


Yet after Brexit, there will still be a CONTINUOUS need for the UK to remain in PERMANENT and MASSIVE contact with the EU!

The idea that somehow the EU is magically going to disappear from the British political debate after a 'clean break' with the EU is an illusion, regardless whether it's going to be hard of soft Brexit.

The Swiss for insance have no less than 20 JOINT PERMANENT POLITICAL COMMITTEES with the EU, meaning as good as ALL of their government deparments remain in constant contact with their EU counterparts to remain fully in sync with the EU to benefit of the FTA between CH and EU.

That means that the British political class will remain heavily focussed on what is happening in Brussels, even more than they were so far.


I am aware of that, plus what´s up with the capslock :)
 
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Number6
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:53 pm

Looking at the situation in the U.K., for me it’s becoming clear that it’s about to enter a dangerous phase politically. Mr.Johnson will be the next prime minister, that’s not really in doubt, but as the October deadline approaches, reality will begin to wilt his authority.

As I see it, and as has been visible t a lot of people for a while, the UK won’t leave with a no deal with the current parliament in place. Conversely there’s no way the current deal is getting through either, and renegotiating it is a non starter. Even if the EU we’re inclined to reopen the WA, there’s precious little time to achieve anything meaningful.
Finally, remaining in the EU is also a non starter. If any of the available options happen, either no deal, WA, or Remain, the country will tear itself apart politically. My fear right now is that should no deal not happen, and the can kicked further down the road, then there’ll be a General election with Farage’s brexit party entering parliament and helping the conservatives ensuring a No Deal exit will happen. Then it’ll be chaos.

Dangerous times ahead.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:10 pm

The best thing that could happen in the UK is for the two party system to explode and then a total reconstruction.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:12 pm

Why should the EU give the UK a further extension?
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:18 pm

BestWestern wrote:
Why should the EU give the UK a further extension?


Nobody knows, but Politics in the EU and the UK have funny ways to get to an impossible outcome.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:06 pm

BestWestern wrote:
Why should the EU give the UK a further extension?



They shouldn’t, These MPs are in the denial about making another deal with the EU 31st is it,
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:06 pm

I thought BoJo knew he was lying, but he talked about the implementation period after no-deal Brexit, meaning he doesn't understand that the implementation period is part of the withdrawal agreement.

Good luck, UK !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:05 pm

Aesma wrote:
I thought BoJo knew he was lying, but he talked about the implementation period after no-deal Brexit, meaning he doesn't understand that the implementation period is part of the withdrawal agreement.

Good luck, UK !



Without seeing the quote in which you refer, it seems to me he is talking about a new transition period to implement if by miracle a new agreement is reached between the EU/UK


Postscript

I did a quick search it seems you right about his incorrect thoughts on the implementation period with a no deal exit, yep he’s bonkers on that one
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:54 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

So, you decline to answer the simple question, I understand why because if you do your conclusion will be that the UK needs to withdraw from every international treaty it has or come to the conclusion that your argument doesn't hold any merit.



If the UK repeals the European Communities Act 1972 (UK) on the 1 November and we return parliamentary and judicial supremacy to the UK, why do we have to withdraw from every international treaty the UK is signed up for?


You don't, but your argument is that you don't want any outside interference with your island state.


Since addressing this post solely via smiles is a deletion offence, I’ll just say that your interpretation of what you think my argument is WRONG, we will continue to engage in international affairs the only difference is we will do so on our own without the EU and ratify treaties and or conventions which are in the interests of the UK.

I’m glad that you admitted in a roundabout that you were wrong when you said we will have to withdraw from all international treaties, as you were looking very foolish.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:20 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


If the UK repeals the European Communities Act 1972 (UK) on the 1 November and we return parliamentary and judicial supremacy to the UK, why do we have to withdraw from every international treaty the UK is signed up for?


You don't, but your argument is that you don't want any outside interference with your island state.


Since addressing this post solely via smiles is a deletion offence, I’ll just say that your interpretation of what you think my argument is WRONG, we will continue to engage in international affairs the only difference is we will do so on our own without the EU and ratify treaties and or conventions which are in the interests of the UK.

I’m glad that you admitted in a roundabout that you were wrong when you said we will have to withdraw from all international treaties, as you were looking very foolish.


Never meant to say that the UK will have to withdraw from all international treaties - even if you could interpret it in that way - , I only said that it is only the consequence of your line of reasoning. And you still haven't answered it. Or in your roundabout way, you have, you are ok with all international treaties as long as it has nothing to do with the EU :roll:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:28 am

Dutchy wrote:

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You don't, but your argument is that you don't want any outside interference with your island state.


Since addressing this post solely via smiles is a deletion offence, I’ll just say that your interpretation of what you think my argument is WRONG, we will continue to engage in international affairs the only difference is we will do so on our own without the EU and ratify treaties and or conventions which are in the interests of the UK.

I’m glad that you admitted in a roundabout that you were wrong when you said we will have to withdraw from all international treaties, as you were looking very foolish.



Dutchy wrote:
Never meant to say that the UK will have to withdraw from all international treaties - even if you could interpret it in that way - , I only said that it is only the consequence of your line of reasoning.
.


Your attempts at deflection are amusing.
What you thought you said and what you say are two very different things.

But I guess you don’t understand what political and judicial supremacy means.



Dutchy wrote:
And you still haven't answered it. Or in your roundabout way, you have, you are ok with all international treaties as long as it has nothing to do with the EU :roll:


I guess you don’t understand what political and judicial supremacy means.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:34 am

A101 wrote:
I guess you don’t understand what political and judicial supremacy means.


So you are fine with political supremacy, but judicial supremacy goes way too far? Is that what you are telling us? You can't even give us a straight answer.............
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:38 am

They want political and judiciary supremacy while having unfettered access to the single market. Hilarious
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:46 am

Olddog wrote:
They want political and judiciary supremacy while having unfettered access to the single market. Hilarious


Actually, they want all the rules for others and all the gains for the UK, or back to the Colonial times. Sure, the world would embrace such an UK attitude, they did once, so why not again. 8-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:47 am

Aesma wrote:
I thought BoJo knew he was lying, but he talked about the implementation period after no-deal Brexit, meaning he doesn't understand that the implementation period is part of the withdrawal agreement.


As from day one of the Brexit debate, he simply doesn't understand how any of it works. He's convinced (like all the other in-denial Brexiteers) that a better deal can be renegotiated between now and the end of October. :banghead:

Olddog wrote:
They want political and judiciary supremacy while having unfettered access to the single market. Hilarious


Yep, head in the sand ostriches.

A101 wrote:
I did a quick search it seems you right about his incorrect thoughts on the implementation period with a no deal exit, yep he’s bonkers on that one


Yeah, if only that was the one single thing he's bonkers about. The guy hasn't got a clue - he's nothing but bluster and empty catchphrases (sound familiar?). Like Trump, he's going to bluff his way into the top political job in the country. :crazy:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:09 am

In his BBC "interview" he said that the UK would not impose any tariff on goods coming in. What it means is he plans to destroy all the production left in the UK, farming and industry. The UK is supposed to become a 100% service based country.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:11 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
I guess you don’t understand what political and judicial supremacy means.


So you are fine with political supremacy, but judicial supremacy goes way too far? Is that what you are telling us? You can't even give us a straight answer.............



I thought it was obvious. I’m fine with political, legislative and judicial supremacy, what I’m not fine with is the ceding sovereignty to a third party such as the EU which influence all three. In the matter of international treaties any disputes will either go thru the ICJ and or by agreement an independent arbitration clause
Last edited by A101 on Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:12 am

Olddog wrote:
In his BBC "interview" he said that the UK would not impose any tariff on goods coming in. What it means is he plans to destroy all the production left in the UK, farming and industry. The UK is supposed to become a 100% service based country.


And many services are not possible for export. So the trade deficit will balloon. I guess that isn't a problem.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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